Dating anxiety part 3: not so anxious anymore

[Depression = 72% of members]

You can see the last part here

slightly long tl:dr for anyone not up to date:

I dated a pwBPD on and off for two years, got ghosted on october, been here since. I met a new person in late march, we agreed to go out on a date. I felt an overwhelming dread after the first time I went out with her, she talked about depression and some FOO issues.

I had to go away on a trip/vacation for two weeks and she said she had lost interest. I sort of talked her into reconsidering by painting a bleak picture of a future without me (not to justify myself, but I had just been "dumped" at the time ).

We dated some more, I sort of convinced myself she had BPD traits by overfitting "symptoms", I was anxious about her leaving me. Last time we met it didn't go well, see last thread for details.

/tl:dr

I went out with her again. it was simple, talking and a few drinks.

It was nice, I felt comfortable, we talked about tv shows and movies, got a few laughs, talked about each other's work a bit. in short, it was like the first date that should have been.

Anyway, despite my initial "gut feeling" reaction of dread after going out with her the first time, things seem to have settled down, at least on my end. She seemed comfortable enough with me. In previous threads I talked about some issues she's dealing with, she seems determined to work through them.

I've been writing these mostly to figure out what I'm feeling means. It was overwhelming at the start, I had a lot of doubts and some issues about myself that I talked about, and just thinking about how to answer some of your questions and points of view has helped me put those feelings in their right dimension, even if that meant (for me at least) disregarding most of the advice I got  thanks everyone for your patience, and sorry if I tested the limits of yours .

I still don't know how things will end up, and I don't really care. Good thing, bad thing, temporary or "till death do us part", doesn't matter too much now. I read a lot about recovery being a journey, I guess pretty much everything in life is. For now this is where I am, and I think I'm ok with it.

Comments, questions or whatever, feel free.

[itsmeSnap]

You can see the last part here

slightly long tl:dr for anyone not up to date:

I dated a pwBPD on and off for two years, got ghosted on october, been here since. I met a new person in late march, we agreed to go out on a date. I felt an overwhelming dread after the first time I went out with her, she talked about depression and some FOO issues.

I had to go away on a trip/vacation for two weeks and she said she had lost interest. I sort of talked her into reconsidering by painting a bleak picture of a future without me (not to justify myself, but I had just been "dumped" at the time ).

We dated some more, I sort of convinced myself she had BPD traits by overfitting "symptoms", I was anxious about her leaving me. Last time we met it didn't go well, see last thread for details.

/tl:dr

I went out with her again. it was simple, talking and a few drinks.

It was nice, I felt comfortable, we talked about tv shows and movies, got a few laughs, talked about each other's work a bit. in short, it was like the first date that should have been.

Anyway, despite my initial "gut feeling" reaction of dread after going out with her the first time, things seem to have settled down, at least on my end. She seemed comfortable enough with me. In previous threads I talked about some issues she's dealing with, she seems determined to work through them.

I've been writing these mostly to figure out what I'm feeling means. It was overwhelming at the start, I had a lot of doubts and some issues about myself that I talked about, and just thinking about how to answer some of your questions and points of view has helped me put those feelings in their right dimension, even if that meant (for me at least) disregarding most of the advice I got  thanks everyone for your patience, and sorry if I tested the limits of yours .

I still don't know how things will end up, and I don't really care. Good thing, bad thing, temporary or "till death do us part", doesn't matter too much now. I read a lot about recovery being a journey, I guess pretty much everything in life is. For now this is where I am, and I think I'm ok with it.

Comments, questions or whatever, feel free.

[once removed]

how are things going now?

[itsmeSnap]

Took me a while to update because I hadn't seen her in a while.

It happened again, "she lost interest"

It was not all doom and gloom, we had a good night out overall, but when I tried to get personal with her she just wasn't feeling it and again thought that that was it, relationship over or whatever.

She again wanted me to be the one to end things, I didn't want to. Again she offered to be just friends, I didn't want to be just friends. She wouldn't end it herself, she also didn't want to do that.

In the end I basically told her the story of her distancing as I experienced, sort of talked about attachment styles and "deactivation strategies" and black/white thinking and why I know about all this (shout out to bpdfamily! ) and she seemed surprised that I could see a pattern and that she hadn't noticed it, mostly because she doesn't really focus on the big picture (though through our little talk it made sense to her), current feelings and "the now" is more important to her (BPD-ish).

She said it was in part that my "giving her space" after our bad night felt to her like I didn't care enough, that I wasn't "working for it" enough, and then "deactivation detachment" (not her words, but basically that, "I don't need ANYONE ever") happens to her. I told her "distance creates distance" and that I'd need her to reach out when that happens so I know what's up. She mentioned it never crossing her mind but again, made sense to her and basically told me to "win her over" this next week.

In essence, we both agreed to not be so "guarded".

Anyway, we agreed I'd respect her need for "space/solitude" and that she'd work with my need for "validated connection" (as in, I will ask for a "green light" to know she's ok/"distressed" with things from time to time) and keep seeing each other in a dating context (not "just friends")

I still didn't feel anxious during our talk, and I was basically told to "dump myself" again . But no, I didn't dump myself, and it was kind of a relief to be able to talk with her about all this. Again, it had an effect, ending it was not on the table in the end and she seemed open to working things out.

I know she still likes me because she said it, she's anxious about closeness as well but shoves it under her "loving independence/solitude" armor (that everyone admires about her) to make it ok.

It's been just over two months since I met her, I know it might be early to get so deep and philosophical about the future of the as of right now "just forming" relationship, but these "bumps on the road" I feel the need to get them out of the way (and good on her for pushing me to get rid of mine!    ) so we can see where that comfort and good times we both experience can take us.

Maybe nowhere, but at least its not because of "nothing", or "not giving ourselves the chance".

This question is probably for bettering but since she's not actually BPD and I'm applying a lot of what I learned after my BPDex ghosted me I'm going to ask anyway:

My approach is somehow working, but it also fails. It fails in that sure, I can "fish her out" of her distancing (same happened when I could fish out my BPDex from her rages) and yet it keeps happening again.

This tells me I'm overlooking something very important, something crucial to "relationship maintenance". I don't think its "giving/asking for space", though both times this has been a thing I noticed (me needing it with my BPDex, this new person "needing it" and yet "not")

Thoughts or suggestions?

[once removed]

In the end I basically told her the story of her distancing as I experienced, sort of talked about attachment styles and "deactivation strategies" and black/white thinking and why I know about all this (shout out to bpdfamily! Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) and she seemed surprised that I could see a pattern and that she hadn't noticed it, mostly because she doesn't really focus on the big picture (though through our little talk it made sense to her), current feelings and "the now" is more important to her (BPD-ish).

Snap, do you want to be her therapist, or her boyfriend?

This tells me I'm overlooking something very important, something crucial to "relationship maintenance".

courting. romancing her. having fun. showing her a good time.

[itsmeSnap]

courting. romancing her. having fun. showing her a good time.

I do when she "allows" it, and I won't do anything with her she doesn't allow.

It happened after I went out on vacation, and after our bad date night. It was good up to that point, me doing what I did before it happened, up until the moment she started rejecting it/me.

Again, I give distance, she's not feeling it right now, I keep trying, still nothing, I keep it "less romantic" to not overwhelm her (maybe this is my problem?), she maybe thinks I don't care anymore, I let her down, then poof, she doesn't have any feelings for me anymore, but wants me to stick around as friends because she still likes being with me.

Snap, do you want to be her therapist, or her boyfriend?

No, I don't want to be her therapist. How does a boyfriend deal with this? please explain, you can ask a another question on the following comment

I offered to keep seeing each other, not as a couple, not as friends, but as dating. She agreed to it, she did want to see me again. Was that wrong?

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Hi Snap,

I read through your last thread and this one. It must not be an easy thing to start dating again after coming out of a relationship with a pwBPD. I think it's great that you're out there. There's so much to learn about ourselves, others and human relationships that we can only learn by meeting other people   

When reading your other tread, this quote by you stood out to me:

... and yet somehow did my best to have her change her mind about "not being interested in me": I pulled her back in.

So my question is this:
What do you get out of working so hard to 'pull her in'?
I'm not so much thinking about companionship and sex and such, but on a deeper level.

Scarlet

[once removed]

I give distance, she's not feeling it right now, I keep trying, still nothing, I keep it "less romantic" to not overwhelm her (maybe this is my problem?)

certainly, you dont want to crowd her or over pursue.

can you give some examples of the ways youre romancing her? i dont have a very good impression of what the interactions (beyond the near breakups) look like between the two of you.

[itsmeSnap]

What do you get out of working so hard to 'pull her in'?

Nothing, I was not trying, it just happened. If there is something, I don't (consciously) know what that is.

I get "something out of it" while things are still moving along, she wants to stop things from moving along ("I'm not feeling it right now, is it even worth it to keep dating me?", notice the focus on my choice/thoughts about her, not if she wants to keep dating me or not), then I say no to "just friends", at least no to "never try romance ever again". she gets back to not wanting to be just friends, though "no promises, no commitment", I'm fine with that.

I'm not so much thinking about companionship and sex and such, but on a deeper level.

Deeper how? I just don't want it to end (or remove the possibility of anything happening in the future) because of something that's not an irreconcilable issue (violence, promiscuity, money problems, addiction, overzealous faith), you know "serious stuff".

Interest and attention spans fluctuate, I'm cool with that, but why end it over a low point when she clearly still wants to see me, and I want to keep seeing her?

Or are you asking me if I like her and care about her as a person? yes I do.

love? not yet.

can you give some examples of the ways youre romancing her?

I can't really, since we met we just talk about anything and everything, keep talking until we meet, then sparks fly and the magic happens.

Just talk, then she "feels it", gives me a not so subtle hint, then I take over from there, things happen, simple enough.

I gave her a small potted basil plant, she loved it (we talked about plants/gardening in a previous date), we kissed after (same day she "was not feeling it"). I guess that counts?

Both times she's wanted to end it was when there was something that kept us apart. First my vacation, then her feeling ill not wanting to go out like that. Even our bad date night was probably caused by a series of unfortunate events at my house that disrupted that flow: I was very nervous on the way home when I picked her up, couch broke down "catastrophically" , we rushed into it after that, some "technical issues" that made things awkward during. We talked, things flowed, but there were constant interruptions and it didn't go well.

Turns out she didn't want space/solitude like she says, it seems she just wants me to "be there", more talk about nothing (like in the beginning), but she says it different before my little "fishing expedition": I'm not feeling it, stop trying, just friends.

Just today she told me she loved that we've been talking for three days straight and she was eager to see me.

Well, at least now after talking about it it's starting to make sense what this is (hopefully), and what to do about it (just keep talking?).

But still, you didn't answer my question: How does a boyfriend deal with this?
what's the difference from what I'm doing?

EDIT: Also, what to do when I'm (or she is) unavoidably unavailable?

[once removed]

But still, you didn't answer my question: How does a boyfriend deal with this?

what i mean is i dont understand explaining this terminology, these patterns, analyzing her. that, to me, is a therapeutic relationship. this seems like a blurring of boundaries.

i dont see how talking her out of losing interest, or explaining why you think are the real reasons shes losing interest, is going to ignite her interest. is that the goal?

then sparks fly and the magic happens.

Just talk, then she "feels it", gives me a not so subtle hint, then I take over from there, things happen, simple enough

what does this entail? what hint? what things? what magic?

[itsmeSnap]

what i mean is i dont understand explaining this terminology, these patterns, analyzing her. that, to me, is a therapeutic relationship. this seems like a blurring of boundaries.

I can't change the past, but as a learning exercise let's concede this point and say I was wrong to explain all this to her (or you guys here on the boards), this circles back to my question on how does a boyfriend handle this?

Agreeing to the "breakup" is an alternative, learn to be a better boyfriend after the fact for my next relationship, but let's leave that aside for now.

I could have just said no to "just friends" without any explanation (or even talking about it here), agree to the same "terms" (keep seeing each other, be open to the possibility of romance in the future even without promising it will happen) and keep my analysis to myself.

I could have not said anything, not tried anything, and just see what happens.

None of the above?

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Hi itsmeSnap, how's it going?

[itsmeSnap]

I don't know, it was odd.

We went to see a movie, I told her to meet an hour before so we could have a chance to talk and not just go straight to the movie.

we talked about our week and vacation plans. shes visiting family in oct, but "bucket list vacations" came up. she said it'd be great if we went to vegas to see the shows when I mentioned I like cirque du soleil. she held my arm/hand, she mentioned her cold heart again.

After the movie we talked about irrelevant things, she (understandably so) was not feeling romantic when we arrived at her house (that was sort of "our romantic moment alone" before)

We hugged, told her to stay with me for a while longer, that I hadn't seen her in a while and I wanted just a bit more time with her. She started saying it'd be better if I dated other people, as in, "date her" and someone else so that she's not my "only option".

I told her I'd had "other options" but right now I still wanted to go out with her and that I don't like dating multiple people simultaneously (I really don't)

She had a sort of "jump" and half said "who is this girl!" with a concerned/surprised look (jealous after she just told me she was ok with me dating around?) then she calmed and said "that's fine" with a smile, she kissed me goodbye (?), asked if we'd talk again tomorrow, told her sure, and that was it.

[Scarlet Phoenix]

That does sound confusing. She held your hand, but mentioned her cold heart. She wants you to see other people as well, but reacted when you said you had other options. But then said it's fine.

A push-pull pattern is not easy to handle. And if you are sure, as it seems you are, then it's all the more confusing. It's normal and natural to look for signs, to try to interpret behaviours and words. Where would you like to see this go now?

[itsmeSnap]

I'm just going to not worry about it for a while.

I'm going to assume its just not the right timing when "she's not feeling it" and maybe ask her to stop being so obnoxious about pushing me away, she can tell me if she doesn't want to see me anymore if she really wants that.

We agreed to go to a music thing next week (spanish themed, orchestra, "opera" songs without the "performance", flamenco dancer), she seemed excited that I asked her, we'll see.

[once removed]

how does a boyfriend handle this?

listen. read her. understand what shes really saying.

be both benign, and strong, in whatever you do.

We agreed to go to a music thing next week

this sounds fun. has it happened yet?

[itsmeSnap]

It was today, unfortunately she couldn't be there because her uncle had a stroke and she's taking care of him after work.

I mentioned I'd send her some clips of the event so she wouldn't miss it, seemed enthusiastic about it. The event was actually really nice, good performances, quite short but good overall.

I'll talk to her tomorrow, I don't expect to see her until next week at the earliest.