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Author Topic: Thoughts on "legal separation" first before divorce?  (Read 959 times)
suisse_chilipep

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« on: February 23, 2019, 12:47:11 AM »

Thoughts about "legal separation" vs. divorce and any success stories?
My uBPDw is high-functioning, and I'm sure would most likely pursue a "high conflict" approach in court, with an ugly custody battle fighting against my efforts for 50/50 joint custody (my boundary to protect my kids, my relationship with them, and to get them into therapy asap). They will be around ages 5 and 7 by the time I start legal proceedings.

I'm leaving nothing off the table: I wouldn't be surprised if she recruited "negative advocates" (her parents) and accused me of false allegations such as neglect or even child abuse, etc. Her cognitive distortions run very deep, so I have to be prepared for a smear campaign. When the time comes, she might back off going to court because I'm collecting a mound of evidence of her abuse, inconsistent parenting, etc., but still.

My question is what are the pros and cons (and potential risks) with proposing "legal separation" vs. divorce (at first) to soften the blow of "D." She is the Hermit Mother, so she is the introverted type and "rejection" is more severe and devastating to her than her fear of abandonment; I get a good sense that she will manage well on her own (more so than other BPD types) because she'll also have the kids in her life, family nearby, etc.

So there's a reasonable argument to be made that a legal separation might be less triggering, and deescalate her desires to start a smear campaign in court, avoid making the process more expensive for both of us, and scratch her itch to challenge my custody desires.

I don't care about the technicalities of legal separation verses divorce (dating right away, etc.). I just care about maximising my chances of securing 50/50 custody, and taking care of my kids.

In the country I live in, you can initiate a legal separation, and after 2 years, you can file for divorce (uncontested). The courts will obviously find any of her cognitive distortions less convincing (after these 2 years), and precedence will be established for the coparenting arrangement (which the court will not want to alter).

Thoughts and advice?

What are the benefits to just pull the trigger with divorce, hire a good attorney and my evidence of abuse in court (journals, recordings, photos, etc.), go NC, and establish "parallel parenting?"

Thanks in advance!
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zachira
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« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2019, 12:25:12 PM »

I am so sorry you are having to consider getting a legal separation versus a divorce and you have children that are so young that you will inevitably have to deal with your wife for many years on a regular basis. I highly recommend reading: "Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone With Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder." When separating and/or divorcing from a partner with BPD, being as mentally prepared as possible for all the emotionally draining drama is required for your well being and being able to do what is best for your children. I also recommend getting some individual therapy as to prepare yourself to be the best person you can to be in the worst of times. It can be extremely hard for a father not to get angry or look badly in front of a judge, law enforcement, and other people, when the wife with BPD comes out with some of her outrageous accusations which will often be believed and can lead to custody arrangements that favor the mother. "Splitting" really talks about these types of challenges, and there is no such thing as being too mentally prepared for the onslaught of unjustified accusations, especially for fathers, who are usually at an unfair advantage when seeking custody of their children. There are many fathers on this site who have divorced a woman with BPD who will share their experiences and excellent advice.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2019, 12:38:20 PM by zachira » Logged

kells76
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« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2019, 09:17:54 PM »

Hi again suisse_chilipep,

Sounds like you have decided that you and your kids' mom need to live apart, and you know her well enough to know that if you go the "divorce" route right away, she'll probably "punish" you by withholding the kids. You're right that the kids need both of you, not just one or the other parent.

Do you think she is the kind of BPD who... .IDK exactly how to put it, but who kind of secretly resents being a mom? Does that make sense? Where she would never actually say it, but when given the chance, opts to "find herself" or is pretty into herself, versus being about the kids?

I ask because if so, that could be good leverage for you and her living apart without using the D word (at first). If you can dig up RolandOfEld's threads from the Conflicted board, I believe he was able to get his wife her own apartment while he stayed at home with the kids. IIRC his situation was more that he framed it as a "win" for her (it might have been closer to her work) and they were overseas in her native country where it was socially acceptable.

While that might not be exactly workable for you, I'd encourage you to start thinking of what your wife's "currency" is in case you want to make a living arrangement offer to her where she would feel like she "won". Maybe she wants to save face as a mom, but really wants to not actually do the hard work of parenting, for example? What living arrangement would allow her to do that while letting you stay with the kids?

Anyway, I am sorry it's come to that for you. As much as maybe the above suggestions sounded "all business", it is a tragedy when marriages end. I'm sorry you and the kids are going through this, and I hope you have a lot of support and can keep your strong focus on what's good for your kids.

Hang in there, and do check out RoE's story -- it has some similarities to yours.

Best,

kells76
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suisse_chilipep

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« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2019, 12:01:10 AM »

I highly recommend reading: "Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone With Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder."

Hi Zachira,

Thanks. Yes, I have read "Splitting" twice in the last month, and I listen to the audio when I job to go over key points. It's a great, informative book on the issues, especially going over everything to prepare yourself for the worst.

I will definitely be getting an attorney and a therapist (therapist next month).

My curiosity is more about general opinions and hearing from others, from antidotal experience, how they assessed the "legal separation" route in order secure custody rights (pre-emptively) before divorce.

Again, my biggest focus and concern are my kids. There's a good chance that she'll still say, "you're an ass, so let's get to it," and we'll end up in court anyway. But there are some legitimate reasons for legal separation softening the blow, especially the pressure of a divorce timeline. 
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suisse_chilipep

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« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2019, 12:19:50 AM »

Hi again suisse_chilipep,Do you think she is the kind of BPD who... .IDK exactly how to put it, but who kind of secretly resents being a mom? Does that make sense? Where she would never actually say it, but when given the chance, opts to "find herself" or is pretty into herself, versus being about the kids?

Thanks kells76. She is definitely the hermit mother, not the waif or other types. I highly suspect she will divert her control issues to our children with my absence. Especially since they are easy targets (after I am gone). So to answer your question, I don't think she's secretly resentful of the fact of being a mother. In fact, it was something she always pushed. Sure, she sometimes is overwhelmed with the rigour and challenges right now raising 2 children (toddler and infant), especially since she doesn't manage things and organise well, but she is also dedicated to them, and in her own ways a good mother.

So I doubt there's a possibility of her looking at this as an opportunity to "explore herself" much with my absence (in a separation). I imagine her being so fearful of losing control, she'll turn to the kids first (the easiest ones to control), and crank up the dial.

However, she has threatened to cheat on me several dozen times, has hinted at it, and flat-out said it to my face, etc. She has a history of impulsivity with sexual encounters (although I don't suspect she has cheated on me ... .yet), so I would imagine she would hook up and have poor boundaries with dates.

Thanks, I'll check out RolandofEld's threads. I like your idea of considering what I can do "to sweeten the deal" so to say. I have already thought of (offering to pay for the first 4-5 months of rent, in addition to a modest child support right away) at the time of leaving, and her keeping all the valuables, furniture, etc. You're absolutely right about approaching this in a business-like manner though.
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« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2019, 09:55:57 AM »

Here's the explanation (perspective?) my lawyer gave me, though of course it may not apply in your location.

My lawyer had told me that he has almost never done separations.  The reason (in my area) not to do a legal separation with an acting-out disordered spouse is that the first time (separation) you go through the custody process, she may misbehave before the court and evaluator and you will be seen as the better parent resulting in favorable parenting time for you.  But if you later decide to take that final step and seek divorce, you may have to go through the custody evaluation all over again and the second time around she may know how to hide her behaviors and she might get more custodial responsibility and parenting time.
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kells76
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« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2019, 04:11:53 PM »

FD raises an interesting question: do you have to be Officially Legally Separated in order to just live apart?

What if you could live apart but still be legally married, gathering documentation on her behaviors that poorly impact the kids for a while, and then once you have really good documentation, go right to Divorce?

Does that make sense? I'm just wondering if you framed it as "it's been so stressful for us living like this, let's find a way to take some pressure off for a while, what if you had your own space by your work" versus "let's legally separate" might be an approach that would lessen the chances of her turning her control on to the kids.

Just food for thought. You are in a unique position of being able to do a lot of planning before divorcing. You might have more time to consider a lot of "out of the box" approaches that would minimize her negative impact on the kids.
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GaGrl
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« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2019, 06:02:03 PM »

Are you concerned about the legal definitions of legal separation vs. Divorce? Or are you more concerned with your wife's acceptance of your moving out? It sounds as if you are looking for a way to "ease" her through the separation.
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« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2019, 06:39:22 PM »

She is the Hermit Mother, so she is the introverted type and "rejection" is more severe and devastating to her than her fear of abandonment

Can you say more about how rejection is different than abandonment for her?

How would legal separation be different than divorce when it comes to her fears of rejection?

In the country I live in, you can initiate a legal separation, and after 2 years, you can file for divorce (uncontested). The courts will obviously find any of her cognitive distortions less convincing (after these 2 years), and precedence will be established for the coparenting arrangement (which the court will not want to alter).

You may want to get deep into the weeds on how the two processes differ and how they're the same.

In my state (in the US) it is mandatory to be legally separated for a year before the divorce can be granted. That means putting a temporary custody order in place that tends to become permanent once the probationary period ends. The actual divorce decree was a nothingburger. It was trying to a) get an agreement in place and b) getting n/BPDx to follow the agreement, and c) figuring out how to get the court system to work effectively for my case, including having contingencies for when the inevitable non-compliance occurred.

For me, the element of surprise and being six steps ahead of n/BPDx made all the difference. Keep working through these scenarios like you're doing. And if you do decide to go for a legal separation, make sure you have a plan B in case she counters with something that has real teeth.

She might just as easily realize the same information you've learned and use it to her advantage. She could agree to legal separation and then take control of the house and kids for two years and put you in a position where you lose a lot of ground from the get go.
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« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2019, 12:47:56 PM »

especially since she doesn't manage things and organise well, but she is also dedicated to them, and in her own ways a good mother.

It is always a red flag to me when someone qualifies "good" parent with "in [their] own way".   What do you mean by that?

My H's uBPDxw is considered by many who know her superficially to be a great parent.  My H would add "in her own way".   In our case, uBPDxw is often depressed and sleeps a lot/avoids SD11.  She expects SD11 to soothe uBPDxw's emotions.  She expects SD11 to be available to talk to her at all times.  She denigrates my H, me, and SD's therapists, all in the guise of protecting SD11 ("let's talk about what to do when Daddy or worriedStepmom decide you aren't allowed to talk to me anymore.")  She refuses to allow SD11 much independence or freedom and has threatened to call CPS because we leave SD11 home alone occasionally.   She doesn't supervise SD's homework.  She frequently fights with her parents (who likely also have BPD) and, in front of SD, frequently screams about how everyone in the world is against her/hates her.

uBPDmom loves SD a lot - but it's not good when your child is your whole world, and you frequently tell her that.  She encourages SD to be creative and artistic.  She provides the basics - a safe home, clean clothes, adequate nutrition, some fun things.  She knows the names and backstories of SD's friends.  But when you weigh that against the emotional damage that she does to her daughter, she's NOT a good mom.  It's not even close.

For a long time, we'd excuse her as you do, that she's a good mom in her own way.  But her way is not healthy for SD.  I prefer to put it as "uBPDmom wants to be a great mother, but her unmanaged mental health conditions prevent her from reaching that goal."

It took a lot of time for us to come out of the fog and acknowledge that uBPDmom wasn't a good mother.  H then went back to court to fight for more custody.  They don't have 50/50 anymore, because that wasn't best for SD.  It's about 70/30 in favor of H now.  Since you are planning to remain married for so many years, you should be trying to evaluate your wife's parenting skills as objectively as possible.  If you saw another kid's mom act the way that your wife does, would you be upset for that kid?  If you were one day looking for another wife and saw that woman treat your children as your wife currently does, would that be a deal breaker? 
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suisse_chilipep

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« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2019, 11:44:02 PM »

Here's the explanation (perspective?) my lawyer gave me, though of course it may not apply in your location.


Thanks FD! This adds an important perspective, and to eventually bring up with my attorney in the future.
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suisse_chilipep

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« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2019, 11:47:30 PM »

FD raises an interesting question: do you have to be Officially Legally Separated in order to just live apart?

What if you could live apart but still be legally married, gathering documentation on her behaviors that poorly impact the kids for a while, and then once you have really good documentation, go right to Divorce?

Does that make sense? I'm just wondering if you framed it as "it's been so stressful for us living like this, let's find a way to take some pressure off for a while, what if you had your own space by your work" versus "let's legally separate" might be an approach that would lessen the chances of her turning her control on to the kids.

Just food for thought. You are in a unique position of being able to do a lot of planning before divorcing. You might have more time to consider a lot of "out of the box" approaches that would minimize her negative impact on the kids.

This is a good point. Definitely something to mull over. And I appreciate your outside observation that "I am in a unique position of being able to do a lot of planning before divorcing." You are right about this, and I should use this to my advantage. Thanks for bringing this up ... it cheers me up a little, and gives me some confidence.
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suisse_chilipep

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« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2019, 11:54:17 PM »

Are you concerned about the legal definitions of legal separation vs. Divorce? Or are you more concerned with your wife's acceptance of your moving out? It sounds as if you are looking for a way to "ease" her through the separation.

Hi Gargl,

Thanks. I do not care about the legal definitions of legal separation vs. divorce. I am simply looking to consider alternative options to dropping "D" IF IT MEANS increasing my chances to secure 50% physical custody. So yes, to "ease" her through the process.

But to the point others have made here, when you're dealing with a disordered high-conflict person, it might not make a difference (this is a real risk). My purpose is to gather information and ideas shared here, and take this to my attorney to develop a robust strategy and plan, and in the coming years, reassess our strategy based on changes in circumstances.
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suisse_chilipep

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« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2019, 12:08:33 AM »

Can you say more about how rejection is different than abandonment for her?

How would legal separation be different than divorce when it comes to her fears of rejection?

Hi Livednlearnd,

Great stuff, thanks! Your point about what made the difference for you was being 6 steps ahead gives me some real encouragement since this is exactly my approach. Also, including to continue to work through different scenarios, and have a Plan B, Plan C, etc. Thanks for these points.

To answer your question about the difference between her fears of rejection vs. abandonment, this mostly has to do with her personality type. In other words, since she is definitely an introvert and the hermit mother, so I can easily see her managing fairly well living alone. She will miss my constant help around the house, cooking, help with the kids, etc., but the fear of living alone won't be so crippling to her as it is with other BPD-types. In many ways, this is to my advantage in terms of providing consistency and attention to my kids (when I'm not around). So this is referring to the abandonment.

But the "rejection" part is that I'm also at risk of her "striking first" in terms of divorce. She has mentioned this at least 5 dozen times, including cheating on me as a way of manipulation. But when I "strike first" in terms of initiating separation or divorce, she will take this very personally and will be pissed that she doesn't have control over me. She will think in black and white terms that "I won" and "she lost or is losing." She will interpret this as rejection, and her failure. She will then project her own sense of failure onto me and others, and that it's my fault, but since she will have a hard time finding reasons why it's my fault, she might even start to make false allegations (feeling desperate), so I have good reasons to be concerned about this. The word honesty is not in her vocabulary.

   
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suisse_chilipep

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« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2019, 12:36:44 AM »

It is always a red flag to me when someone qualifies "good" parent with "in [their] own way".   What do you mean by that?

Hi WSM,

First, let me start by saying that I appreciate your perspective and "no-bull crap" approach. I recently read the book, "Say Goodbye to Crazy" by Dr. Tara J. Palmatier, and based on your previous comments (being relatively new here), I get the impression your approach and experience is very much in sync with the content and recommendations from this author. And based on your own experiences, for very good reasons too! I like this approach, I really do. It's food for thought for me, and having a hardline approach to the complexities of my own situation might very well be my best approach.

I've also been watching Demars Coaching on YouTube, and I also very much like his "no bull crap" approach, especially in terms of when a partner has been abused. There is never an excuse for this. Ever. And you GTFO.

At the same time, everyone's situation is different. I don't know for sure, of course, how this is going to play out. But if I can use some important factors as leverage, I should use them to my advantage. Otherwise, if my approach is too much of a hardliner, it could have a backfire effect and escalate the problems even more so.

I am not making excuses for my uBPDw's behaviour. Trust me. She has literally put our family in danger several times in the car by attacking me while I've been behind the wheel, and our kids witnessing this and being terrified. Her screaming at the top of her lungs like a maniac in the process, and me having to pull over to the side of the road and get our oldest one safely out of the car, and taking the keys out of the car. This alone should not qualify her as being a "good mother," right? What loving and responsible mother would do such a thing, am I right? And abuse is abuse. Plain and simple. But then there's this other part "in her own way." I don't think I'm making excuses when I refer to this other part.

There are nuances and it's always more complicated, of course, and in spite of all this crap, I have to accept the reality that the mother of my children will always be an important person to them in their lives (for good or for worse), and that it's very much in their best interests to have a stable and loving connection to their mother as much as possible. So if I can "throttle down" on a few things to "soften the blow" (e.g. legal separation at first vs. divorce) in order to create good conditions for this stability and loving connection, then I'll do it. The best interests of the children is always in mind. If her BPD behaviours become more severe, problematic, and even dangerous, when then, I'll have to reassess and change my course of action. But these things are always in flux. And she is a good mother, still, in her own ways. This doesn't excuse her violent behaviours, of course, but acknowledges the many, many other times she is a source of stability and love for our kids.

One thing is for sure, I'm getting my kids into therapy as soon as I start the process of legal separation / divorce. Especially since there's a chance there's a genetic predisposition for BPD traits.

Thanks for your comments and insights. I appreciate it.
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« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2019, 08:27:25 AM »

In a sense, what you want -- what many of us with former BPD spouses did and still do -- is to appease the BPD person while leaving them. Their greatest fear. Whether you call it rejection or abandonment it will likely grip her the same way emotionally. It's good that you are exploring legal separation and divorce while also imagining that she reacts explosively to both.

Plan as though her worst fears are realized so you cover your bases and aren't easily surprised. What often happens in these divorces is that you have to do the thinking for both sides because she can't do her share. She will be in straight up emotion mind and acting from a place of genuine fear and that's not conducive to problem-solving or putting the needs of the kids first. She will believe her feelings and they will be powerful and persuasive.  

I think the line you are drawing may actually be between taking an aggressive versus an assertive approach to divorce. A lot of people here tend to mistake assertive for aggressive because we are naturally conflict avoidant and good boundaries often makes us feel selfish instead of safe. This is the disordered thinking and behavior that we often bring to these relationships.

The difference between assertive and aggressive when it comes to different lawyers and divorce approaches:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=270440.msg12566140#msg12566140

I admire you for doing your research and getting your ducks in a row. Keep asking questions and thinking ahead to what comes next. I can't overstate how important it was to have a solid plan in place. Things didn't go exactly as I planned but having thought through many of the details gave me just enough sure footing when the ground fell away.

And remember that there are two nightmares. One is the battle for safety, both physically for your kids (custody) and financially for yourself (and them). The other is for the hearts and minds of your children.

Read Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak and Don't Alienate the Kids by Bill Eddy. The first one will help you learn new ways of communicating with your kids once the parental alienation kicks into high gear. Those skills are not intuitive and must be learned. And Eddy's book helps to ground you as a parent so that your kids have a healthy counter balance when divorce shenanigans try to pull the whole family toward chaos.

I know it sounds daunting but you have these boards and friends here to help you with this.  You have time and planning. Just keep taking things one step at a time and you will start to see a couple of plans start to take shape. Keep gathering information and adjusting your plan accordingly.

And take care of yourself, including being kind to yourself. Might as well give yourself all the help you can get including from the voice inside your own head  
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« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2019, 09:42:15 AM »

I recently read the book, "Say Goodbye to Crazy" by Dr. Tara J. Palmatier, and based on your previous comments (being relatively new here), I get the impression your approach and experience is very much in sync with the content and recommendations from this author. And based on your own experiences, for very good reasons too! I like this approach, I really do. It's food for thought for me, and having a hardline approach to the complexities of my own situation might very well be my best approach. 

I haven't read that book, so thanks for the recommendation!  I am much more hardline than my H - but I have never had to live with someone with BPD, and I've never loved someone with BPD.  This is why I do not interact with uBPDmom at all, because my empathy only goes so far.

Excerpt
Otherwise, if my approach is too much of a hardliner, it could have a backfire effect and escalate the problems even more so.

...[scary behavior] ...
There are nuances and it's always more complicated, of course, and in spite of all this crap, I have to accept the reality that the mother of my children will always be an important person to them in their lives (for good or for worse), and that it's very much in their best interests to have a stable and loving connection to their mother as much as possible.

I absolutely agree that children need both of their parents, and they need to know that it is okay to love both of their parents, no matter what.   My comments were not really to encourage you to divorce more quickly or cut your wife out of the lives of her children.  Even bad parents have their moments, and even bad parents are important to children. 

If you can stay out of the FOG and see very clearly, you will be more likely to make the best decisions for your children.  50/50 might not be the best choice, if their mother puts them in physical danger and is verbally abusive. 

In our case, SD sees her mom about 5 out of every 14 days during the school year, spaced out. SD gets time to love and be loved by her mom, but the bulk of the actual parenting - school work, extracurricular activities, even conversations about difficult topics like puberty - is done by H and me.   uBPDmom recognizes that both she and SD are happier now than with the 50/50 schedule, but she does not see a connection between the new schedule and the new happiness (she thinks SD has overcome our attempts at alienation).

I don't know the laws in Switzerland and how hard it is for fathers to get custody, but as you watch your children and your wife interact over the next few years, think about what schedule might make the best sense for the kids, and propose that.  You don't have to start at 50/50.   We don't have a standard schedule.  My H put a lot of thought into the particulars of our new schedule, and he can cite reasons and examples to support every piece of it.  As your children age, you'll be able to identify those kinds of markers in the relationship between your children and your wife as well, as long as you are looking for them.
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« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2019, 07:24:19 AM »

I haven't read that book, so thanks for the recommendation!  I am much more hardline than my H - but I have never had to live with someone with BPD, and I've never loved someone with BPD.  This is why I do not interact with uBPDmom at all, because my empathy only goes so far.

Hi WSM,

You should definitely read it, I think it might be up your alley, especially since it's written (mostly for the stepmom married to a spouse with a BPDx). Check it.

Thanks for your comments and input. I have an update regarding the laws here in Switzerland, but I'm finally getting some help ...I'm finally getting therapy!
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suisse_chilipep

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« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2019, 07:41:28 AM »

In a sense, what you want -- what many of us with former BPD spouses did and still do -- is to appease the BPD person while leaving them. Their greatest fear.

Hi LnL,

Thanks for your encouragement and insights. Could you elaborate on this? Why is this "their greatest fear?" This sounds interesting and worth understanding.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=270440.msg12566140#msg12566140

The difference between assertive and aggressive when it comes to different lawyers and divorce approaches:

I definitely understand the components of the assertive approach (legally) verses aggressively (after reading "Splitting"). I want an assertive, thorough, and careful approach. I want to be steady, consistent, and pace myself these next few years.

But to be honest, I don't think I've been that passive or codependent in our relationship. In fact, when problems have been the worst is when I have been firm with setting boundaries, which she freaks out about. But I have caved too many times to her tantrums after communicating my boundaries, and enabled her poor behaviours, I know, in doing this. Because it is so much easier, and less dramatic this way. In the end, I am the one always making personal concessions, at my own expense. Once I am geared up for legal action, however, I don't see myself falling into this same patterns; I see myself as being assertive, and doing everything I can to protect my kids, especially with the court system being consequential.

At the same time, I just started therapy, so this is something I want to explore with a therapist. But from my perspective, it's the fact that her BPD traits seem to have peaked after our son was born (could also be her hormonal changes where her BPD "flared up" enough for it to be noticeable enough. And I have been making concessions to keep things peaceful and consistent in our home environment with the kids.

Anyway, thanks again for your encouragement and book recommendations. I've added these two books to my list.

I also have some updates now here in CH (back). I finally am getting therapy, and have some facts confirmed regarding the Swiss family court system, my rights, etc.

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livednlearned
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« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2019, 01:52:40 PM »

Could you elaborate on this? Why is this "their greatest fear?" This sounds interesting and worth understanding.

By greatest fear I mean her fear of abandonment. We often try to appease a set of fear that are not within our power to fix or save or rescue her from, altho she may imply that you have that power only to take it away when you (inevitably) come up short.

Her fear of abandonment exists whether you move ten steps to the right or five steps to the left or text her back right away or put the dishes in the dishwasher the proper way or shower her with flowers or look the wrong way at another woman. It is not a form of trauma that can be fixed by controlling her environment and the people in it despite what someone with BPD may have us believe.

We (non-BPD partners) often hope that by tip toeing around the abandonment problem that we can blunt the impact of our leaving. The problem is that her fear of abandonment is all-consuming and always on. Whether you separate or divorce, you are leaving.

I would be concerned that filing a legal separation is a little like tipping your hand and giving her an advantage that she will use.
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2019, 09:16:22 PM »

Another way to describe it, an alternate scenario if she chooses to leave you, is that a pwBPD can abandon/reject you first so you can't abandon her.  Yes, it doesn't make sense, it's forcing her fear to occur, but no one here is saying mental illness makes sense.  It can be described, even written up in textbooks, but it still doesn't make sense.  That's what mental illness is, not common sense.
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suisse_chilipep

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« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2019, 05:07:16 AM »

We (non-BPD partners) often hope that by tip toeing around the abandonment problem that we can blunt the impact of our leaving. The problem is that her fear of abandonment is all-consuming and always on. Whether you separate or divorce, you are leaving.

I would be concerned that filing a legal separation is a little like tipping your hand and giving her an advantage that she will use.

LnL,

Thanks! I'm a math person and this makes sense to me ...they both = leaving! This picture is starting to come together more clearly. Thanks for explaining the nuances and complexities, and also pointing the potential risk factors with legal separation as well. Going over, and working through these scenarios is so important for me right now. Of course I have some time on my hand, but this is really an education for me, so thanks! This includes understanding and accepting how, early on, my role in having poor boundaries played a big role in this. Oh my god, the sex was incredible early on in our relationship (it gripped me ...it made me overlook some critical red flags early on when she then tested me and moved to Stage 2: testing me with what problem behaviours of hers she could get away with. Until eventually I became the "fixer" and her "caretaker" of all her problems, completely blind-sighted, and never anticipating she could have such severe problems with self-sufficiency and having a normal and healthy sense of an autonomous self (what I'm used to for myself, and expect of others). And then feeling trapped because going along with her cognitive distortions and enabling her problem behaviours is often a safer approach than challenging them. But my empathy well has run dry now, and I'm finally taking back my own life, educating myself on BPD, and developing a plan to eventually leave (with myself, and my kids in mind).

One other point I want to make: I like the word "fixer" better than being the "caretaker" type. The reason why I mention this is because a lot of times in the literature, there's reference to the "caretaker" type of personality who is attracted to the narcissist or borderline type, and I never identified with this description. I grew up with parents who modelled a normal and healthy relationship dynamic, and fortunately, I didn't have to "care-take" a parent because of his/her own issues. I didn't fall into this role growing up. However, I did, by default, fall into the role of "fixer" after already enmeshed in a relationship with a pwBPD, and the commitment already strong enough for making it very difficult to get out, overlooking certain red flags, having poor boundaries, etc. This is all stuff I'm going to explore more with a therapist, sort out, and learn from.

Anyway, thanks again!   
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suisse_chilipep

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« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2019, 05:14:41 AM »

Another way to describe it, an alternate scenario if she chooses to leave you, is that a pwBPD can abandon/reject you first so you can't abandon her.  Yes, it doesn't make sense, it's forcing her fear to occur, but no one here is saying mental illness makes sense. 

I know what you mean by it not making sense, but in many ways, it makes sense to me (based on my particular situation and her particular kind of BPD. In other words, because my uBPDw is high-functioning, very controlling, incredibly stubborn, and it being literally impossible for her to look inward and express taking responsibility for her behaviours, then by "striking first" with leaving or initiating divorce, she can maintain "control" over the situation, and the outcome of the decision. Maintaining control, or the illusion of maintaining control, is often another major component to this ...another way of looking at it.   
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