Reading through some fights with my ex

[once removed]

found an old cell phone and went through the texts, about 200 between my ex and me.

about a third of it was fighting. i couldnt get a very clear picture about what because i couldnt read them in order.

she probably sounded more reasonable than me. i jump back and forth between being a martyr and lecturing her. i cringed a lot and couldnt even finish reading all of my texts completely.

we fought so much. literally just about every day. sometimes more than once a day. often for hours and hours on end.

i think the good news is that just isnt me anymore. i dont recognize myself in it. i dont so much need to be right or get shots in or paint me and the other person in these hero and villain terms.

the other thing that made me anxious just reading it is how much attention she demanded constantly. i could never get a break. i remember id wake up in the morning and instantly be anxious knowing that shed expect me to text her...if i didnt and she realized i was awake and doing stuff, shed likely get upset and start a fight, and if i did, there was at least a 50% chance shed get upset about something else and start a fight.

i was always fighting for my space. it makes me a little nervous about future relationships. i imagine pushing a little too hard for independence and space and feeling way too smothered a little too easily. on the other hand, historically, i can be so insecure at the beginning stages of relationships if im not hearing from the person or they seem distant. i think i have that more under control; i have a better feel for the evolution of relationships and more reasonable expectations, and know how to better read the other person. i also know not to act on/out of anxiety and over pursue.

jealousy, possessiveness, and demands for attention though, man. its exhausting and unattractive. i never want to get into that again, but i dont want to respond to it the way i did at the time either.

[itsmeSnap]

i imagine pushing a little too hard for independence and space and feeling way too smothered a little too easily. on the other hand, historically, i can be so insecure at the beginning stages of relationships if im not hearing from the person or they seem distant.

I can relate to her demanding all of my time, except when she was at work for some reason.

jealousy, possessiveness, and demands for attention though, man. its exhausting and unattractive.

Funnily enough I loved the attention, made me feel secure somehow, like if she wants me that bad then there's nothing to worry about and made me love her even more. Turns out it was not a correct line of reasoning, because she felt neglected and ran away from me 

The interesting thing to hear is why did you feel like "fighting" for space? I remember telling her "I'm doing this thing, I'd be available after" and that calmed her down somewhat, what was your reasoning at the time for being "reactive" about it? and how do you "claim your space" now?

[once removed]

thought provoking questions imS!

made me feel secure somehow

i can say for certain that while i didnt love it at the time, it made me feel very secure too; there was a major payoff in it.

she felt neglected and ran away from me 

ultimately, me too 

The interesting thing to hear is why did you feel like "fighting" for space?

there were three components as i see it.

the first is that i was over compensating in my relationship. in my early relationships, i was this wounded puppy dog begging for scraps. i read over memorabilia, conversations, from those relationships and cant even believe the things i sat there and tolerated and also got so wounded over. over time, with the feedback of friends, learning more about relationships, that left my system. then i dated a girl and had the balance a lot better, but got my heart broken. i kicked myself after that for a few things...compromising a few things about myself during the relationship, wearing my heart on my sleeve so much after the breakup, not breaking up with her when i should have, and at the time i feared/believed that i made myself too vulnerable and that who i was as a person was rejected. so to a conscious degree, i wanted a do over, a test. i wanted to show some real "balls". i wanted to do a whole lot of saying no. i wanted to be able to end a relationship (not a good reason to get in one!). i went overboard. i was too rigid, needed to be right all the time, and i was emotionally unavailable. deep down, i needed to believe that she depended on me, and that i absolutely did not depend on her.

the second is that i was abusing benadryl on a daily basis, so i was unavailable in that sense too. a side effect was that it would be very difficult to socialize, and i could get really irritable. it was my downtime, my de-stress time, my escape and withdrawal, and i wanted no human contact during. of course, she frequently chose that time to demand my attention, or start a fight, or talk to me about how lonely she felt (in general) when i was in no shape to console her and couldnt if i tried.

all of that of course, is entirely on me, and she didnt deserve that, no one does. the fact of the matter though is that she also was just insatiable, smothering, invasive, and disrespectful. it wasnt just me, she always did that to the primary person in her life and they felt the same way.

i enjoy spending time with my partner. i think my partner wanting my attention can be cute and adorable.

i never, from the time we got together, had an opportunity to sit down and even process the relationship, where it was, where it was going, how i felt about it. we were always together, and for days on end. and if we werent, we were attached at the hip by text or phone even if there was nothing to talk about! she has this way of texting complete and total gibberish/nonsense like "are you a cat?" as a conversation starter just for the sake of it. maybe that sounds cute to someone. it isnt by the 700th time. or shed be asking my whereabouts and what i was doing, and not all that long into the relationship, it always felt like what she was really doing was trying to gauge whether i was busy cheating on her, which was maddening.

i could never have any space after a several hours long fight where shed say hurtful and abusive things. either shed want to keep talking about it, interrogating me (OH MY LORD THE INTERROGATIONS), or shed be begging me to come over promising to "be a good a girl". any attempt to explain that i needed to cool off was interpreted as me needing "to get away from her" (which i suppose many times, but not all, was true). any attempt any other time to explain that it was too much, or simply say i needed some alone time or space was grounds for her to start a fight.

you know what else i like? missing my partner. wanting to be with them, around them, loving them. looking forward to those things. for nearly three years, those were foreign concepts, replaced with a longing for alone time, and when i rarely got it, dreading her invading it.

what was your reasoning at the time for being "reactive" about it? and how do you "claim your space" now?

i was usually reactive when it felt disrespectful, like bugging me while i was working, or when she knew i was in the middle of something, or when i felt like she was just checking up to see if i was cheating. it felt really rude, and i felt that i needed to call her out on it or tell her not to do it. shed push back, id push harder.

as for now, i dont want to over simplify it and pretend that it was all just a product of that relationship, that it simply wouldnt happen again. while my ex is extremely clingy, the relationship, its dysfunction and all the ways in which it was dysfunctional, was a product of who i was and where i was at.

it is true that i wouldnt, couldnt be with someone that clingy again. im an introvert, and i need some alone time and space, or to be able to work, tend my hobbies, whatever (i say that as if extroverts dont). i wouldnt be with someone that i felt was consistently and over the top disrespectful of that. and if we had this real unresolvable difference, i would have the guts to end the relationship so we could both find someone that better suits us.

what i would hope that i would do differently though, is not be passive aggressive, or short, or impatient, state lovingly and firmly that i need space, need to cool off, or that im "doing this thing", and that ill be available after, the gist of what you said. or you know, if i want to hear from her, id welcome the interruption! if it were a regular thing, id find a calm time and place to communicate about it and work to get on the same page, address her needs as well, try to find solutions. i would also hope frankly, that my partner could be up front. tell me she wants my attention (cute hints are fine too).

[Turkish]

My last accident was in 2012. She had (typically) texted me asking when I was coming home even though I was on time to return at the time I said I was in the morning.  I read ended someone a mile from home I was so anxious.  

I didn't need to respond since I was meeting our agreed upon obligations.  I learned from that. The constant texting and updating isn't necessary in a healthy relationship.  I bought into her anxiety.

[itsmeSnap]

state lovingly and firmly that i need space, need to cool off, or that im "doing this thing", and that ill be available after, the gist of what you said.

Yeah, but it takes two to tango.

I did the thing, she seemed to "buy into it", I did "everything right" (or so it seemed) but her anxiety got the best of her and the split happened anyway.

I do get your point about not looking for a clingy partner but do take note: after reading a few stories here on the board it seems like rejection/distance triggers a strong bid for (re)connection in the partner, even those who wanted/demanded distance.

Its putting yourself in the receiving end of over pursuing: pushing the person away causes them to become even "clingier".

I didn't need to respond [..] The constant texting and updating isn't necessary in a healthy relationship

I recently had to tell someone to not worry about updating me, I told her I understood she was busy and could take all the time she needed to text back and I hoped she understood it as well when I do that too, she would apologize profusely for not answering right away or constantly tell me what she was up to, like she feared I'd get angry/upset or something if she didn't.

Kinda the inverse of what you mention turkish, I think the same underlying anxiety may be at play.

[once removed]

The constant texting and updating isn't necessary in a healthy relationship.  I bought into her anxiety.

i recall many times that id be at her place, fights would get out of control, and id leave, and have a text fight the entire way home. i couldnt put down the phone/fight.

i dont want my partner to be my journal, ya know? i dont think there typically needs to be a "i just left the grocery store! i just left the post office! i just left the dentist! im on my way home!". thats no way to live. ive dated a girl or two where there was a lot of that at the beginning, it was fun for a time, and then it tapered off.

heres an example though, of what i worry a little about. i think in a marriage, my spouse/family have a right to know my whereabouts and reasonable updates...like say i had to go on a business trip or something. my wife might want to know that ive landed, settled in, am safe. i dont think thats extreme in the slightest. i start to imagine myself rebelling against that a bit though, if i felt it was some obligation placed on me, as opposed to something i did of my own accord. little games like that.

lastly, i cant believe that i didnt add that one of the things i reacted strongly to was if i didnt reply fast enough and she accused me of ignoring her. that would usually earn her a JADE filled lecture from me full of examples of times that she didnt respond right away and how i didnt think/accuse her of ignoring me, how it was perfectly normal. what she heard was the tit for tat, the "yeah well you didnt respond either" which was not my point. shed respond to that. id reiterate my point (that we were not ignoring each other and shouldnt assume and act as if we were). shed argue a side point. id want to slap it down. shed get huffy, or worse. if it was worse, id start getting shots in. round and round wed go. eventually maybe id threaten a breakup. someone really should have put us both out of our misery.

Its putting yourself in the receiving end of over pursuing: pushing the person away causes them to become even "clingier".

i couldnt agree more with this. a person inclined to chase someone who is emotionally unavailable will often just chase harder (ive certainly been there). or perhaps a dysfunctional, drama filled version like these endless fights i describe, will fill that need for attention (just as it filled my own need to feel superior). i think ideally, a healthier person, after making their concerns known, would have deemed me hopeless and kicked me to the curb and moved on to someone emotionally available.

[itsmeSnap]

i think ideally, a healthier person, after making their concerns known, would have deemed me hopeless and kicked me to the curb and moved on to someone emotionally available

I'm not so sure about that. The thing is, we want to give the other person a chance to make things right. Moving on is also not a moment, its a process.

I've "moved on" from my ex, and I still have feelings for her. I've "moved on" from a girl I liked a lot that I rejected, and still think about her from time to time. I still think what would have been if they had gotten their act together.

I guess what I'm trying to say is there's this image that moving on means not caring about the other person or basically erasing them from our lives. My BPD ex certainly thought about it that way.

I've cut contact with a lot of people, friends and family included, because of something hurtful/neglectful/stupid they did, and yet I can't see it as "leaving them out to the curb", I still would be there if they really needed it, but now I know not to "try to help them", just not let them do more damage if that makes sense?

An example is my cousins, my mom lent them a house because "they had nowhere to stay". Turns out they weren't paying their share of rent/food, they neglected my grandma (who was also living with them) from partying and spending on beer and takeout, my mom was angry but wouldn't "kick them to the curb". I told her I wouldn't stand this,but it was her choice.

She eventually pressured them into getting a house of their own (they could pay it, they just didn't want to spend). A few months later, they had an argument over money (shocker I know right) and wanted to go back to my mom's house. I stalled, wouldn't let them in, never answered, never gave them the keys. They got another place, they just wanted the easy out.

Thing is, even though they were almost literally homeless for a few days, I never saw it as "kicking them to the curb", I knew they had it in them to get their  together, but I also couldn't allow them to keep doing this to my mom and grandma. No retaliation, no anger no nothing, just don't let them "hurt her" anymore.

Anyway, they are still somewhat resentful of it and we don't talk, I don't try to initiate contact, but if I see they really are in trouble, I'd still be there for them, they're family after all.

I think if they just weren't so stuck on their own little selfish world we could have a conversation and a relationship, simple enough, family get togethers and maybe just hanging out every once in a while.

Enough storytime , I know this wasn't about "romantic relationships" but I think its close enough, relationships are relationships after all: family, friends, partners, people after all. just felt like sharing my view "from the other side".

[Turkish]

I have numerous examples of my mom taking people in who eventually took advatage of her and a few where it ended up she wasn't safe. As the Good Book says, "love covers a multitude of sins," but at the expense of safety? And is it really love?

[once removed]

I guess what I'm trying to say is there's this image that moving on means not caring about the other person or basically erasing them from our lives.

im not quite suggesting this. "kick me to the curb" might have been strong language. i dont have a hard time saying though, that a healthy gal with priorities would not have gravitated toward me at the time.

everyone has periods of perfectly reasonable emotional unavailability...death of a loved one, major life crisis, significant loss of something important in their lives, depression, that kind of thing. i think a healthy person spots a dysfunctional relationship, and reassess...whether that means significant change on their end, aligning priorities and working to get on the same page, or determining that the relationship is a dead end.

the writing on the wall appeared in our relationship several times, for both of us. neither of us had the guts to make the hard choice and walk away. instead we tried to get our needs met in dysfunctional ways. and thats the crux of it, really, its who we were. if things had been different, things would have been different.

[Red5]

I have numerous examples of my mom taking people in who eventually took advatage of her and a few where it ended up she wasn't safe. As the Good Book says, "love covers a multitude of sins," but at the expense of safety? And is it really love?

Please pardon the slight highjack here OR, but wow Turkish!… my own mother has done this her whole life, we used to call this "taking in strays"… and every single time the result was disastrous… her ex husbands, #2, #3, and #4 were all strays… she never married my bio father (long story)… due to her 'habit', I spent the majority of my childhood with my Grandparents, and I routinely, without batting an eyeball…  say today, "I was raised by my Grandparents"…

My mother was referred to by the rest of our family, aunts, uncles, cousins… as "Aunt Sassy"… it took me decades to understand why (Sassy)… there are terms to describe, "toxic", "controlling", "busy body", she has had a long history of trying to take peoples kids… intruding into their lives, all the while crying "fowl"… her surviving sister's, now all pushing eighty, "black balled" her years ago…

Its all very interesting to me now, but also very sad… as I had to go LC, NC with her years ago.

She is in her late seventies now...

Of note, I have no "full" brothers and sisters, all are "halves"… two half brothers, and four half sisters… so that should give some degree of insight.

Red5