Near The End of The Road

[MrRight]

Hi Guys

Have not posted in over a year.

My marriage to udPWBPD is reaching the end - I can feel it - I think and think about finding a way to end and starting a new life. These thoughts are with me so much I cant see me doing nothing about them.

Our son as been at university nearly a year. he lives away but my wife has been spending time living with him as he is only 16. But she has been leaving him on his own more now and virtually said that from September he will most likely be living on his own.

I have tried to think of reasons why I should continue in this, for me - damaging and empty marriage - but I seem to have run out of excuses and reasons for allowing it to continue. My son knows how I feel and even he has urged me to put a stop to it before too much longer. As he is going to be at home for the whole summer I feel I dont want to burden him with spending the summer with her alone so have decided to stick around until at least September.

The unfortunate thing for him is that once I leave I am pretty much sure she will want to go and live with him to soften the blow. So my leaving will affect him one way or another. He would rather live on his own.

I dont have any questions as such - just externalising my thoughts.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Mr. R, If things are really over, as you imply, I recommend that you face reality and take steps to part ways.  Prolonging the pain is generally unhelpful to anyone, including your son.  I suggest you focus on what is right for you.  The rest will fall into place, I predict, when you determine the best course of action for you.  How to figure out the right path?  Listen to your gut feelings.

LuckyJim

[Mutt]

Hi MrRight,

I agree with LuckJim it’s thoughtful to think about your son but at the end of the day you can’t get around this — you’re going to have your experience with divorce and your son will have his own.

How is your r/s with him? Does your insurance cover therapy?

They probably have a psych department with student services and access to a P? If you think about it he has his studies ( something to keep him preoccupied), friends and resources all in one place that might be the best place for him with lots of support.

What does your internal voice tell you?

[MrRight]

Thanks Mutt and Lucky Jim for you replies

I had some psych therapy before marriage and ha ha guess what my shrink concluded I have issues with making endings.

My inner voice tells me Im dead if I dont get out soon and I have a plan in place for that - its just a question of carrying it through. I have a ton of financial commitments - mortgage - plus rent on my son's flat where he studies - virtually no spare money. I would have preferred not to go and live with my parents but may need to.

My R/S with my son is very good - we  talk things over. He doesn't want to be left alone with her over the summer.

[MrRight]

We talked a bit today - she was trying to find out what I am thinking - about our future. Tears streamed down her face when she told me she couldn't live without me etc. I was kind of vague - saying - lets get our son through university. Not ruling anything out.

She was being quite nice for the next few hours - the kind of thing that makes me think - maybe we should stay together

then BOOM!

I whipped some cream for dessert and she said - dont take to table - serve here in kitchen. But my son took the portions through to the dining room before I could serve the crea. So I just took it and put in middle of dining table with a serving spoon in it.

Then we all sat down and she started to serve the cream - what a mess she made. That's when she started to blame me. Finally she spilt cream off her dish onto the table - cursed me saying that's why she wanted to serve it in the kitchen. Then she let her shawl trail into her plate and got cream all over it. What a mess. She cursed me again and I said - sorry I didn't forsee that this might happen. She went cursing to the kitchen and cleaned up. When she returned her eyes were blazing and she lunged at me - landing a punch on my face - I glanced it so there was no damage.

We settled down to eat eventually and she said sorry.

I could really do without this. Sorry just doesn't cut it.

If she values me as a life partner - why is she driving me away with this childish hysterical behaviour?

[Mutt]

That would be difficult to see your partner breakdown because they want an answer to sa hard question. That’s not a way that I’d want to spend my Sunday being blamed for my partners anxiety - that’s why she acted the way that she. A pwBPD cannot self sooth or regulate their feelings. . Was this the first time that she threw a punch?

[MrRight]

That would be difficult to see your partner breakdown because they want an answer to sa hard question. That’s not a way that I’d want to spend my Sunday being blamed for my partners anxiety - that’s why she acted the way that she. A pwBPD cannot self sooth or regulate their feelings. . Was this the first time that she threw a punch?

Yeah I know BPDs cant self regulate. Its a terrible kind of abuse to burden others with this. But they dont see it that way. We also had a row in the evening because she was telling me about a program she watched about life on earth originating from mars. I was curious and a little sceptical about this and tried to make sense of it all - how did it get there? On a meteor. is this confirmed? WHY DO YOU ALWAYS PUT ME THROUGH THIS! IT WAS A SCIENCE SHOW WHY CANT YOU ACCEPT WHAT I SAY!

Then she asks our son (a young scientist) - he says he has heard of the theory.

YOU SEE! HE HAS HEARD OF IT. ITS SCIENCE ITS (swear word) SCIENCE. DONT YOU EVER DO THIS TO ME AGAIN I CANT LIVE LIKE THIS!

I have to agree with everything she says - we cant have discussions.

Yes she has been violent before. Not extremes - she rarely punches to the face.

No I wouldnt want to spend my sunday like that either. nor monday tuesday etc etc or the last 18 years.

[Lucky Jim]

Yes she has been violent before. Not extremes - she rarely punches to the face.

That's a good illustration of how abuse can get normalized in a BPD r/s.  You're minimizing it by saying she "rarely punches to the face," as if that makes it OK.  Physical abuse, in my view, is unacceptable and not to be tolerated in a r/s.  You might want to employ boundaries (see Tools, above) as a way to draw the line.

The bottom line: don't put up with abuse.

LJ

[Mutt]

I agree with LuckyJim about downplaying her behavior in regards to physically assaulting. Were here for you a group had a huge advantage because there’s always someone here to reflect back your thoughts and what you’re going through it’s a reality check.

I hear frustration in your words and I agree with you with scientific facts but she also doesn’t have a r/s with science she has a r/s with you. The BPD behaviour come out in close r/s’s.

Do you have any hobbies? Do you spend time with friends and family by yourself without your spouse?

[MrRight]

I agree with LuckyJim about downplaying her behavior in regards to physically assaulting. Were here for you a group had a huge advantage because there’s always someone here to reflect back your thoughts and what you’re going through it’s a reality check.

I hear frustration in your words and I agree with you with scientific facts but she also doesn’t have a r/s with science she has a r/s with you. The BPD behaviour come out in close r/s’s.

Do you have any hobbies? Do you spend time with friends and family by yourself without your spouse?

Any kind of violence is not acceptable I agree - and over the years she has pushed me to retaliate on a few occasions - something I regret. Its strange she was talking about a couple the other day where a woman was jailed for abusing her husband physically - approving of the sentence - the couple sounded much like us - and you would never think it the way she talked. She talked like we have a good r/s and all that stuff is so awful nobody should tolerate that kind of controlling behaviour. My son exchanged a glance with me.

No hobbies no time on my own I work from home. If she sees me looking at the news when I should be working - she flies into a rage. Not seen my parents in 10 years.

I tried to establish boundaries - nothing seems to work.

This morning when we were waking up she said - I dont want to debate science with you - I want warmth and love from you - where is it?

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Mr. Right,

Boundaries only work if you are willing to enforce them.  Those w/BPD will break your boundaries all the time, if you let them, as you have discovered.

I suggest you start with baby steps.  Set a minor boundary that's important to you that doesn't hurt her, and then hold your ground.

LJ

[Mutt]

This morning when we were waking up she said - I dont want to debate science with you - I want warmth and love from you - where is it?

That's a lose lose situation. I understand the frustration there is a tool that can help you, I'm just saying this from my personal experience it's very simple but probably one of the most effective tools for a pwBPD on the entire site.

This ties into what Lucky Jim is saying with implementing small changes you don't have to change everything all at once make some small changes feel comfortable with changes, tweak them if you feel like something is not working and eventually look for more things that you want to change.

That being said, the tool that I'm talking about is JADE don't Justify Argue Defend or Explain. If you don't JADE it doesn't give her something to argue you with, she may try to continue baiting but don't give her anything. She may hold on to certain beliefs or those beliefs will shift depending on how those beliefs make her field but that is her reality or how she interprets her reality at that time, if she thinks that way fine so be it, you know your own reality hang on to that and don't compromise yourself in changing it to appease her just keep in mind don't JADE your own beliefs.

She's probably baiting you this morning because she's feeling anxiety about the future and where things are standing. I could be wrong it could be about something else but I'm pretty sure that she's trying to bait you to self sooth because as you know she can't self sooth or regulate emotions.

Safety First

Domestic violence [for men]

Don't "JADE" (justify, argue, defend, explain) OK. What does this really mean?

Can I ask you about your parents? Does your pwBPD pick fights if you want to see family?

What did you do for your own pleasure when you had the time?

[MrRight]

That's a lose lose situation. I understand the frustration there is a tool that can help you, I'm just saying this from my personal experience it's very simple but probably one of the most effective tools for a pwBPD on the entire site.

This ties into what Lucky Jim is saying with implementing small changes you don't have to change everything all at once make some small changes feel comfortable with changes, tweak them if you feel like something is not working and eventually look for more things that you want to change.

That being said, the tool that I'm talking about is JADE don't Justify Argue Defend or Explain. If you don't JADE it doesn't give her something to argue you with, she may try to continue baiting but don't give her anything. She may hold on to certain beliefs or those beliefs will shift depending on how those beliefs make her field but that is her reality or how she interprets her reality at that time, if she thinks that way fine so be it, you know your own reality hang on to that and don't compromise yourself in changing it to appease her just keep in mind don't JADE your own beliefs.

She's probably baiting you this morning because she's feeling anxiety about the future and where things are standing. I could be wrong it could be about something else but I'm pretty sure that she's trying to bait you to self sooth because as you know she can't self sooth or regulate emotions.

Safety First

Domestic violence [for men]

Don't "JADE" (justify, argue, defend, explain) OK. What does this really mean?

Can I ask you about your parents? Does your pwBPD pick fights if you want to see family?

What did you do for your own pleasure when you had the time?

I suppose I have not seen my family to make life easier on myself - as she starts to get very difficult. I have no doubt she would prefer to just let them all age and die and me never see them again. So much time has passed. I spoke to my father on the phone for the first time in several years - he has changed quite a bit. Im in touch with my mum by email. My brother and sister I have not seen in ages. Once I get out of this I will go to them all and start to make amends.

Thanks for the advice - small steps seems like a good idea.

Its funny my son witnessed a rage and hysteria episode yesterday and he said to me in private - why did you say that to her - you know you cant talk to her like she's a normal person.

[Lucky Jim]

I spoke to my father on the phone for the first time in several years - he has changed quite a bit. Im in touch with my mum by email. My brother and sister I have not seen in ages. Once I get out of this I will go to them all and start to make amends.

Hey Mr. R, My suggestion: start to make amends now.  I suspect you're going to need their support as you go forwards.

Your son sounds quite perceptive.  How old is he? 

LJ

[MrRight]

Hey Mr. R, My suggestion: start to make amends now.  I suspect you're going to need their support as you go forwards.

Your son sounds quite perceptive.  How old is he? 

LJ

he is 16.

Im afraid his mum is a BPD tiger mum.

Yes he is mature for his age in some ways.

[once removed]

whats her beef with your family?

[MrRight]

whats her beef with your family?

From a very early stage she interfered in my relations with them. She didnt like the way I talked to my brother - I was lowering myself to his level etc. My dad is always telling me what to do - you shouldn't accept that. My sister doesnt do the best things for her children.

It's my fault - I let her do it - the first time she started I should have taken her to the airport and sent her back to where she came from.

Im feeling depressed today - worse than for some time. Our son spent the last 2 weeks with us and it helps having him around - but he's gone now until May 10 - so its just me and her. And the worst thing is - in leaving her I am going to lumber my son with having to cater for her emotional needs.

[Enabler]

Hiya Mr R,

Out of interest, how do you respond to you son when he says things like that? There's different schools of thought here... however, he's showing clear signs that he knows that 'this' is not 'normal'. I don't think you should squash this and if anything nurture him to find out what normal looks like. Especially given he may not have experienced normal before.

Enabler

[MrRight]

Hiya Mr R,

Out of interest, how do you respond to you son when he says things like that? There's different schools of thought here... however, he's showing clear signs that he knows that 'this' is not 'normal'. I don't think you should squash this and if anything nurture him to find out what normal looks like. Especially given he may not have experienced normal before.

Enabler

maybe I shouldnt have - but I have discussed most of what I suspect his mother's condition to be. He's aware that he lives in a dysfunctional family - even before I had talks with him. We have discussed ways of dealing with her behaviour. Though we both slip up. I did reassure him and describe what a functional relationship is like.

[Panda39]

Mr Right,

Have a bigger awareness about how this might be affecting your son. He is a mature 16 but he is not an adult, he is not your buddy, and he should not be your confidant about your adult problems it's not his job, just as it isn't his job to sooth his mother.  My suggestion here is if you don't already have a Therapist, get one.  Talk to a professional whose role it is to help you negotiate your feelings. 

I'm on these boards because my partner has an uBPDxw, but I was in a dysfunctional codependent marriage with an alcoholic.  I thought if I could keep my ex's drunken rages directed at me that I was protecting my son.  But he was in the house he saw and heard the fights, he saw his father drunk, he saw my codependence.  I thought I was being a good parent, but what I taught my son was his role in the family was to stay under the radar. I taught him to hide problems.  What I smothered was his social life, you can't have friends over when dad is drunk in the basement watching t.v.  He doesn't mirror his father's behaviors (he's 25 now and has never tasted alcohol and likely won't) so what did he learn from me? Codependence...it remains to be seen.  When I finally left my marriage he was 16 and as soon as we moved out he had all kinds of anxiety surfacing and depression, all of which I believe was always there but he stuffed it trying to stay under the radar and I was unable to see it.

What I'm getting at is even when you think you are protecting your son you might not be.

I finally did what was right for me, I left my marriage and in turn it was a catalyst for change for all of us.  I was much happier, and healthier and was setting a much better example for my son.  My ex hit rock bottom about 2 years later and has been sober ever since.  My son saw that people can change and learn and that his parents could do better.  He saw that his parents both love him even if we can't be married.

I know that having a BPD parent is different you can't stop BPD behaviors like you can stop drinking alcohol, but in many ways the dysfunctional family dynamic is very similar.  My Partner's daughters both had to learn some painful lessons when it came to their BPD mother and it was really hard to watch.  Sometimes though you have to learn things yourself the hard way.  You can tell your son about a healthy relationship or you can demonstrate it.  You can try and shield him from his mother or you can help him negotiate her pitfalls.

I also want to urge you to reach out to your family, there are so many parents that come here because there child has married someone with BPD and they don't see them or their grandchildren.  It is extremely painful and likely has been for your family too.  Take the plunge and push through the fear schedule a visit and take your son.

Panda39

[Lucky Jim]

I finally did what was right for me, I left my marriage and in turn it was a catalyst for change for all of us.  I was much happier, and healthier and was setting a much better example for my son. . . .  My son saw that people can change and learn and that his parents could do better.  He saw that his parents both love him even if we can't be married.

Appreciate what you're saying there, Panda39.  I like to think that I demonstrated for my kids (two boys) that change is possible in life and that one need not remain in an abusive r/s.  Whether that will sink in at some point is hard to say (too soon to tell at 18 and 20).

LuckyJim

[MrRight]

Thanks for your comments.

I suppose me and my son have become buddies due to having no one else.

In heated times I sometimes say to my wife - I will leave. She starts saying - you cant leave - you need to pay off the debt etc etc.

[Enabler]

maybe I shouldnt have - but I have discussed most of what I suspect his mother's condition to be. He's aware that he lives in a dysfunctional family - even before I had talks with him. We have discussed ways of dealing with her behaviour. Though we both slip up. I did reassure him and describe what a functional relationship is like.

I believe there is a marked difference between sitting a young person down and ‘informing’ them about their mother/fathers disorder compared to responding to their confusion and desire to make sense of things.

In a book a read a while back called Toxic Parents it talks extensively about how families try and deny the obvious... “why is daddy lying on the floor in a pool of vomit? Has he been drinking again?” “Oh no no no he’s got a tummy bug and is having a sleep”. Denying the bleeding obvious denies the young person the ability to trust their own judgement of a situation. The secret or denying the obvious then becomes a thing the family have to defend.

Panda, although I agree this is something that a child SHOULD not have to deal with as part of a healthy upbringing, but the reality is that his son is not in a healthy environment, nor is he ever likely to be whilst he interacts with his mother... thus... if he’s showing thirst for understanding, I say empower him with appropriate knowledge and understanding. Done in a caring empathetic way I think it can be very effective. It has to be on the basis of responding to questions rather than pushing information, but providing an appropriate non-judgemental environment where he is not shot down for suggesting that mummy hitting daddy is not at all cool is totally appropriate IMHO. He needs to protect his little soul as well.

Enabler

[MrRight]

I believe there is a marked difference between sitting a young person down and ‘informing’ them about their mother/fathers disorder compared to responding to their confusion and desire to make sense of things.

In a book a read a while back called Toxic Parents it talks extensively about how families try and deny the obvious... “why is daddy lying on the floor in a pool of vomit? Has he been drinking again?” “Oh no no no he’s got a tummy bug and is having a sleep”. Denying the bleeding obvious denies the young person the ability to trust their own judgement of a situation. The secret or denying the obvious then becomes a thing the family have to defend.

Panda, although I agree this is something that a child SHOULD not have to deal with as part of a healthy upbringing, but the reality is that his son is not in a healthy environment, nor is he ever likely to be whilst he interacts with his mother... thus... if he’s showing thirst for understanding, I say empower him with appropriate knowledge and understanding. Done in a caring empathetic way I think it can be very effective. It has to be on the basis of responding to questions rather than pushing information, but providing an appropriate non-judgemental environment where he is not shot down for suggesting that mummy hitting daddy is not at all cool is totally appropriate IMHO. He needs to protect his little soul as well.

Enabler

Thanks for your comments and support. I had no option but to talk things over with him and provide him with the results of my own research and understanding since he himself was raising concerns about how her behaviour differed from anybody else in his life. And since he, as mush as me - has been on the receiving end - I thought it important to explain why she says and does certain things. His feelings about it seem to swing one way and another. Once he told me he wished she would kill herself - another time he said one day when she's alone he hopes she does not harm herself. He wants to live his own life and has concerns that she wont allow him to do that - as she has not allowed him to do lots of normal things - like meet friends after school - or go out on his own without parents. There is a good chance he will be staying in college accommodation from September - he is looking forward to that. He is remarkably well balanced though there are flashes of rage mainly when him and his mum disagree over something. I worry that he will explode on her one day and I have implored him to be careful - rash actions cannot be undone. I hope I am saying the right things to him.

[once removed]

does your son see a therapist?

[MrRight]

does your son see a therapist?

No he doesnt.

[once removed]

i think the idea of both you and your son having the support of a therapist is a good one.

what are your thoughts?

[MrRight]

i think the idea of both you and your son having the support of a therapist is a good one.

what are your thoughts?

I think my wife would have something to say about that.

[GaGrl]

Your wife might have something to say about your son's medical/psychological treatment, but she shouldn't have a say in what you do to take care of your physical and mental health.

[Harri]

This thread reached the post limit and has been locked.  Part 2 is here:
 https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=335989.0