I hate her for all the lies

[Sandb2015]

Mod Note:  This thread was split from: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=334886

Yesterday after speaking in person that she can't make any promises when I do get my stuff together, but she wants to. (I'm in a bad financial spot and she is worse, at least I have a heart, empathy, a grasp of the bigger picture and more love and caring for her and her son she will ever experience).  She was agitated and on the verge of an episode while blaming me for us, (all my fault of course), she said we broke up and I said you did, not me and inside, I just didn't give a rat's ass.  

After that talk, some texting reiterating the getting my ____ together and she really wants me to, and wants me to me happy and wants a life with me "later" but no promises.  I hate her for all the lies (devious lies I'm slowly realizing) and I'm holding them close along with the hate and further remembrance of the cruelty to be able to move on.

She sent me a text late on Monday night, I didn't see it:

When you get things back on track, you will realize that you can go out and date or look for someone for yourself again and fresh start. Even then you still want me, let me know. Good night.

My response, true:

Getting back on track means I’ll feel great about myself. Better than now, not a new heart. I will and do want you because I haven’t stopped only I’ll have more confidence. I said I want to grow old with you, I’ve seen it already. I’m not dating, I won’t, it’s easy, I can’t. It wouldn’t be fair to someone when I just want you. I hear you, I do. Good morning. Reading what I wrote and what you wrote almost sounds like we’re saying similar things to each other. It’s great and sad at the same time. For me not to be wanted by you and still have the heart I do, amazes me everyday.

I let a vampire in and was a willing participant, no mistake, she slowly and knowingly sucked almost all life from me.

Now she dangled hope for the future; total NPD/BPD.  She will never be "good" and she will never be "better" and from what I've experienced, it just gets worse because she constantly reinforces everything.

If she was "dating" as I imagined and kidding myself, maybe I wouldn't feel this way, but what I put together from Sunday was not just dating, it was "replacing". NPD or BPD, same ____!

Moderators, please move me to another area, I will not hope anymore have love dangled anymore, she has caused me trauma in the worst way and she has nothing I want because she has nothing to give, and wants me "hoping" in the wings to be summoned when she misses me, ____ you.

I let all these things she did to me happen but it was vicious and cruel in nature and she knows it, always will.

Let's go straight to detached because even though I love and care about her, that "her" wasn't real and I am conflicted and not believing this could ever be good for me. I need to cut with the ____ of a "later" that just keeps me dangling with hope, the same hope that put me here.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Circle]

Hi Sandb2015,
Hope I am not intruding by following your posts one by one.
Seems like you were feeling very intense yesterday.
Ready to do a sharp turn from things as they have been.

I noticed that this happened with you at the same time that communication opened back up.
Did you notice that?
I see that with myself sometimes.
That the things I can't access start to look good.
And, when they are more accessible, I begin to lose interest.

At any rate, it is so challenging to see things as they are, whatever they are.
Realizing that whatever happens, it will never be easy with her.
How are you today?

[Sandb2015]

Circle,

I thank you and I'm grateful for your attention, I'm here for a reason.

I don't understand completely, regarding opening up communication.

I'm understanding things I didn't before, I looked the other way, I accepted things as they are with the knowledge, self examination and hope that we have a connection and there is her disorder in between us and I will spend my life with her one way or another.

I don't know what to believe anymore and I feel hoodwinked and bamboozled.  My mind is wandering back and I guess I needed to see the car in the driveway and look the plates up.  One one hand, if I didn't know, I would still be sending my "connection" texts, perhaps popping up at her job.  On the other hand, knowing the work she is putting into a replacement is the devastating truth I can't deny anymore.  She hadf no idea what I knew while dangling hope as I'm the bad guy she can't wait to get my act together so she can have me back, what ___.

After she threw me out on 12/19 and my frantic behavior, crazy, running, desperate and lost, both her sister (she has no idea about her sister behind the curtain or just accepts) let me know to give her space, she is having a rough time trusting you and seems to have lost all trust in you, she doesn't want to date, your love was too much for her, she wants to concentrate on her relationship with her son and school, getting him ready for college.  The sister was convinced this is all true and she is a sincere person.  She wholeheartedly believed that I was good for her and her son as the rest of the family felt strongly about our rs.  She said her sister has no interest in dating or anything.  

That was reiterated many times.  I was on the fence about whether she would eventually start dating, but she was probably working this mark for a while and when I met her, she was so secretive about where she lived, it was months before I went to her home and with great consideration, meeting her son.

Before me, there were many 30,60, and 90 day guys and they all just ended and she was mostly secretive about that also.

She is moving/moved quickly on my replacement, not just dating, the whole thing smells of seriousness.  I was angry, now I feel bad for him, I can tell the type he is.

This was most likely going on when we were sexually intimate, eating together, spending Sundays in bed, laughing and having a "cracked rs".

The difference now, I'm looking back and the truths are coming back like shooting stars.

Can I still see a life with her, I really don't know, will something change in a few months, a few years, yes, me.

She wants to keep me on the backburner, is that for a lifetime, is that when things don't work with this guy or the next.  She will miss me, she said she does now and fights it.

We haven't had communication since Tuesday morning, it is giving me more room for anger and disappointment.

Ironically, I'm not blocked, my pinterest profile that includes her has my email and warnings of red flags and asking questions, nothing too severe or pejorative.

I have no intentions of reaching out or initiating contact, I test myself and force myself to see the truth, I'm just one of those 30, 60 or 90 day guys that she actually almost loved and felt something, I'm just someone that lasted longer, almost 4 years.

I deserve better for myself.

I'm letting anger in and it's taking the shine off the "hope".  I don't have to text and wait...only to be disappointed.

Next week I'm having a custody hearing and will lose my son because she facilitated the 2nd war (first war ended), gave proof by using my phone and email to my son's mother, my son's mother was trying to get me out of the picture since the beginning anyway, now, tragically, it's all coming together against me and I have no fight in me anymore.  

She will be at the gym or food shopping or on a dating website or thinking grandiose ideas about herself and her life while I'm in court handing full custody over to my son's mother.

I have pictures of him, just a few, she erased most and the hard copy photos, she cut up.  I have a picture of her holding him and they are laughing, one of those days that was my heaven where everything bad didn't matter anymore.  She ended up hating him and ignoring him and my little guy fell in love with her also, he would chase her around, ignore me and she would go into bed and not want to be bothered, thank god he won't remember those details, I will though, that was about 2 years ago.  

She has no conscience, she is calculating with bad intentions.  I have less and less compassion for people that suffer from a "disorder" that makes them somewhat immune from accountability.

If a child with down syndrome loves a bunny and adores a bunny and squeezes it and holds it, just wants to be one with this bunny and kills it in the process, who will blame the child?  Only a psychopath would.  Cluster B is what this is.

Think OF MICE AND MEN, she is of course, Lennie.

Man, I'm angry, I'm finding myself devaluing her in order to stop being drawn in.  I don't know what will happen later with how I thought she would be "dating", compared to how I know she is really replacing.

I have to solidify my feeling now before she reaches out, if she ever does.

[Sandb2015]

I feel like I am being slowly erased, actually, very quickly erased from her life, memory or being kept on a shelf until she needs something, that's all I see.

I want to see past this also and see a life past this sewage filled period of time.

I'm not seeing that great time later too much.

[Circle]

Sandb2015,
It is hard to realize someone is interested in another person.
Even if they still have feelings toward us also.
There is so much for you to process.
Have you looked into free counseling since you live in a metropolitan area?
You may even find someone who works pro-bono, or on a sliding-scale.

Your thoughts are coming out really clear.
I guess it is hard to really figure out what the pwBPD is doing right?
Perhaps she does have a long range plan, perhaps not?
Maybe she was intimate with you while conversing with others.
These things are difficult to accept.

It sounds like you are having strong feelings today.
It is okay not to be seeing far into the future right now.
What are you doing to help cope, anything helpful?

[Sandb2015]

Circle,

Thank you, I'm grateful for feedback.

Yes, it's hard to figure out what she is doing? Maybe it doesn't matter anymore.

I have trouble thinking she does have feelings for me, I don't know.  I know what my feelings are.

I'm still caught in the sense of now, a sense of every second counts, hurry before I'm left behind.  I know that's tied to abandonment issues and of course insecurities.

I'm in a rough financial spot and I can't take off of work, I am searching for the sliding scale therapist, I know I do need one, I know the importance and I will soon enough.

After all that has happened, I know I deserve better, I can have better, be loved by a loving person and I'm worthy of it.  Anger, confusion and hate comes in waves and I confront in my mind every bad way I've been treated to keep that avenue of disgust open in order to confront it.

After all of this, She is still on my mind and in my heart.

I still think about later because it's a tragic disaster now and feel this could just be a moment in our time, a year from now, six months, maybe more...

[Sandb2015]

I've read the stories here and I believe them, they are true and involve real people. I really hand it to the people here that aren't stuck in the moment, today, next week, next month...they are able to function apart from the mess until it's time to.  I feel like wet concrete is drying on our situation that appears to becoming irreversible every second.That is made up crap in my head and I just see doom and gloom apart from myself getting healthier. I also know I can't stay like this forever, still loving and hating every day.

Truths:
1) She is with someone else.
2) She has anger and resentment towards me...
3) She has a history of disastrous rs and besides her marriage, our's is the longest.
4) She does at times know there's something wrong and won't self examine more, just exercise, body over mind...
5) I love her and she is bad for me the way it was. I will not go back to that as it was.
6) I'm getting better, sometimes 1 step ahead, 3 back, normal journey.
7) She will not change regardless of who she's with.

The lies:
1) She had no interest in meeting anyone.
2) The reasons she pulled away, went on a tear about degrading my everything inside and out.
3) That she loved me when our days were so great...she could have, just negative.
4) The letters, texts and verbal declarations of me being her last, to "friends and family also".

****I can go on and on, small fibs become monsters leading to my imagination when I ruminate.  I may skip therapy and go for the all-in frontal lobe lobotamy... a little scar and all this goes away.

The confusion:
1) What the hell will happen later?
2) Should I cut everything about her out of my life and future?
3) Should I relax and wait until a later comes?
4) Should I continue to resist reaching out to her and wait for her to? Will she?Why?
5) I'm being set up by everyone with "dates" and I have mixed feelings about it.

What the hell am I doing, hope she wrecks some new guy and another before calling me, maybe never calling?

We haven't communicated since last Tuesday, nothing and I have resisted with all my will to not reach out because I need some comfort (stings also). I also am seeing all the effort of trying to stay relevant turned me into a zombie with the ups and downs.

I will feel lucky if I get so healthy, I won't have any pain or feel the crap I feel and think now. I will feel lucky if there is a time for us later...

[Sandb2015]

We are not NC and I wonder if she is keeping it that way for a reason, a while ago she joked, "just call my job" because I was so pissed she blocked me.  Now we are in uncharted territory.  I am resisting reaching out and I know why, I don't want to chase her to be disappointed after...get on the hamster wheel...think a text will light a flame...let her thing with the new guy fall apart or develop into something really terrible for him(she went after him for some money, he's quite successful and may really work him as I had less and less as we progressed)...and most importantly, this time without communication is healthy for me to see things I couldn't before.

[Sandb2015]

It's a beautiful spring day in NY today, I'm working and she is with someone else enjoying this beautiful day...I'm going on a long commute "home", nobody there and I become Gregor Samsa (The metamorphosis).

I want to break the whole ___ world!

[FJM]

Dear sandb2015;
It makes me angry too to read al the ___ she puts you through. You live in reality, in the ground and you HONOR your feelings.

You cant think or date with another girl cause its not normal and sane yet. Misery loves company, let her keep doing all the dirty work. By what you tell us, who the ___ can tolerate someone like that? Let her mix with the animales.

Focus in yourself, being sad and angry is normal and part of the process. Honor yourseld and your feelings. All you are going through is real. All that she does is a mere fantasy just to keep draggin ___ into her black hole.

Life is hard and tough for everyone but we dont cripple people hearts to move on. Youre on the path, keep moving.

[Harri]

Hi Sandb. 

It's a beautiful spring day in NY today, I'm working and she is with someone else enjoying this beautiful day...I'm going on a long commute "home", nobody there and I become Gregor Samsa (The metamorphosis).

This struck home with me.  I used to think about Gregor all the time and all the ways alienation showed up in his story.  I think the worst and most damaging is the self-alienation he experienced.

He was disconnected from his needs and desires in life and everything revolved around others (yes, I know I am stating the obvious here  )  The good news is that you are in touch with your feelings here.  The tough part is that they are so intense right now.  It will get better as you give yourself time and some distance to gain perspective and think about what you want. 

I think not reaching out at this point is good for you and even for her.  You both need time to settle down and get a handle on things.  You have a lot going on right now in addition to all of this conflict so space is going to be even more important.     Look at it as a time to get yourself together and decide what is good for you, what you are willing to put out in the relationship and what you are willing to recive.  Right now, it seems she is driving a lot of this.  Do you agree?

[Skip]

There was a nice car in her driveway the other day and I am privy to Lic plate registration checks.  Turns out he's a seemingly very quiet, older and successful business owner from 50+ miles away.  If he was there, her son met him.

He's the next mark it seems.

From a "Saving a relationship" perspective...

This would freak out anyone hoping to rekindle a relationship... this stuff is painful. The hardest part is that you don't know what it means. If she off onto a another relationship, or was this an employer dropping of work, or something in-between. You don't want to over-react. You don't want to dismiss it either.

One thing you know is that she is still talking to you... when women are "done" they are "done" and this is not at that place. Another thing you know is that the problem that lead to the breakup is still a "dealbreaker" for her... and that she is committed to that. Also, fighting with her, or professing your love is going to make things worse, not better. Lastly, you are officially broken up for 90 days. She is free to explore her options as are you.

In the bigger picture, you are going to bounce back and move off the futon. You are having a down time but you will recover. At the same time, she is a single mom fighting for survival - its hard to be a single mom - you can't always follow your heart - you have a life to feed.

So where are you in the bigger picture? Can you, "do you" want to play the long game and  the uncertainty that it holds. Do you want to cut your losses? These situations are extremely hard, very emotionally trying, devastating.

[Circle]

Sandb2015,
Are you still metamorphised?
Looks like you got some great replies.
Just checking in to see how you are doing.
Hope you are well.
Let us know how things are going.
-Circle

[Sandb2015]

Anguish, smile, vomit, peace.

FJM, yes, anger and BS all the way, a ride to hell indeed if you buy the ticket.

Harri, yes, she is running the show and I'm letting her.  Waiting...letting someone have the control and I choose to let that happen, I choose to be follow conscientiously and expect the world to know what I want and to serve me.  when it doesn't, I blame, I cast shadows on others and rarely look at myself.  I am a person that is naive in this world, perhaps the intelligent, judgemental dreamer I may always be.  I always wonder up close and far away what makes people tick.  Of course, I'm an amateur Psychologist (terrible hobby and always wrong) but a step up from "armchair therapist".   I tend to only want to understand why people are doing something wrong according to my BS standards and of course, when they are doing something wrong to me, I rarely take a look at my own reaction and label mean as mean.  Family, friends, exes, meter maids, the unfair world is my oyster and I wave a magic wand of forgiveness and acceptance that never runs out of batteries, I feel good about that, my secret and knowing I can be that allows me to be better in general.  Seeing me apart from my effect on others is really where I should be looking ...

Skip, well, you are right and wrong.  I know what she is doing and done.  The why, I'll never know and it's too difficult to confront with her.  I don't want to hear the details because I will either get stuck on them forever or forgive actions, actions that really have nothing to do with me.

You are the bearer of truth here in this matter...and I don't want to hear it, I am hearing/understanding/soaking in this and other truths I'd rather deny...She can after 1 day apart explore her options without having to explain, not the 90 days you were so kind to point out.

I can say most conflicts are the struggle between truth and denial of said truth.  We want things our way and we grumble at the idea it's not our show, there is no star, just the idea that we are.  The truth sucks and we either learn or become bitter.  She has been in survival mode long before me and money is an issue, her future, her fears...all real, as real as who I am to her. She's been mistreated and criticized her whole life, judged by family and herself. I love her and I can't just see what I want, the world does not exist to accommodate me.

Circle,  All great replies, including your inquiry.

Thank you all.


Now...I reluctantly went on a last minute date Monday 4/1, it was terrible, shouldn't have went, went out of spite mostly, I wanted to put her on a backburner and see what a date would do.  It showed and I was honest about being in love with my ex...my date was cool, no harm no foul, I felt human again to some extent but felt guilty and dirty.  We parted with smiles and that soon faded...

Coming back from my date, my love called me and wanted to tell me she is through with the other guy, they slept together and she wants me, she misses me, she loves me AND where were you? (I was out when she expected me to be home) I lied (children of alcoholics) , I lied again using someone I used in the past and she just caught me...I emailed..."I was on a date"...it was a rage, block, unblock, nasty emails, texts, block, unblock...an emotional explosion mixed with guilt, anger, love, frustration, need, want, hopelessness...a long overdue and painful pimple of sorts...It was bad and necessary.

I went to her home on Tuesday, a pop up and she was happy to see me, we spent the day, confessed our wants, she doesn't want to live together for now, her son was having a rough time with our fights and they always ended up badly.  Same trauma he experienced with his parents when they were together.  I kept looking for a sorry and that is my MISTAKE, as SKIP said, she could do as she pleased whether is was agreeable in moral court or mine . She asked me to sleep over with frequency for now and if I'm okay with that and she does want a life with me, not just now...

I listened and felt her for the first time that didn't include me with the bitter truth.  I feel upset she was with someone she said it was just to put me behind and she realized she made a big mistake, I see her for her, not how I feel about it.  I made something clear..I was always afraid to confront because I may hear the truth or create boundaries, but this situation has broken so many eggs, it turned into a sink/swim for both of us and it looks like we are swimming...

I said clearly and nicely without judgement that if she wants to be single, it's something I need to accept, If she wants to date or be on dating websites, that is fine, I will respect what she wants to do, I will not be a part of it at all.  It wasn't a threat or ultimatum, it was an acceptance of what she wants and she made it clear it isn't.  Maybe in therapy later when I have a better job and we have more money, we/she can explore the "why" among so many other things in therapy, that's still the goal.

We love each other and the world as I want to know it is different than all fantasy, classic literature, philosophy I've dove into throughout my life.

If anything, I have used all of my knowledge, wisdom, my heart to use as a tool to be in denial and not be intimate with anyone my whole life.  I have used all of my great qualities and wonderful intelligence to keep people at a comfortable distance that suits me.  How can I ask to be understood or for someone to give something I think I deserve when I won't.

There has been a crossroads...a personal one that is allowing me to see and feel a different picture, to question my "way", my very rigid way of seeing myself versus the world, especially the one person I want to invest more than an extension of love and my limitations.

We are still dealing with some sort of "disorder" here, mine and hers...

I will continue to be better in the better sense, I need to step up in the income area and become a provider, that will do wonders for my self esteem, I feel worthless in the job/income area and that is the root cause of my self esteem issue.  She needs to count on me with more than my wants and my words...I need to count on me for myself.

I almost gave up and I know why, I don't want to look at myself and nothing fit in terms of my wants and what I think is the standard everyone must follow, so self centered, so idealistic.

I will not resent her, I do a little, oh so workable...it's not me-me-me anymore, I can't protect myself and bond with someone at the same time, blame and selfishness are terrible.  I will now use the heart within me that I know is big and strong to NOT live comfortably removed from the one I love.


Stay tuned and this is more than family to me. More family than I've ever had.

[Sandb2015]

Some clarifications...

She wants a life with me now, living together may not be the best right now and we will take this slower, healthier and become better with our connection.

She has been treated as worthless by her family and by the conservative nature of her misogynistic culture in her homeland.  She wanted to be independent which was impossible and frowned upon, almost a disgrace in her culture at the time.  She didn't measure up in many ways and her parents decided to "marry her off", arranged marriage, totally acceptable there and she tried her best to assume that role...she couldn't be someone's handmaiden for life plus the one thing that dangled was financial stability...that's tough to give up, she did.

The more angry I got with her, the easier to label, curse, and blame and devalue her, all very self serving.

[Harri]

Family, friends, exes, meter maids, the unfair world is my oyster and I wave a magic wand of forgiveness and acceptance that never runs out of batteries, I feel good about that, my secret and knowing I can be that allows me to be better in general.

wow.  I like the way you said this.  I am reading this to mean that you find being able to forgive and accept others makes you feel good about yourself... almost better?  Is that correct?  If so, I can relate.  I got my value, or part of it, by accepting, accommodating and forgiving others for what they did... I thought I knew better than they did.  That kept me safe and distant while also allowing myself to accept abuse.  It was quite the web.  Not sure if we are talking about the same thing so if I am off, let me know.

I will not resent her, I do a little, oh so workable...it's not me-me-me anymore, I can't protect myself and bond with someone at the same time, blame and selfishness are terrible.  I will now use the heart within me that I know is big and strong to NOT live comfortably removed from the one I love.

Good.  You have done a lot of work here and it is great to see.  keep it up.  Keep pushing and examining.

[Sandb2015]

Harri,

Yes, as bad as anything has been, whoever has wronged me or felt wronged whether the friendship was gone, rs was gone, family member disconnected, I forgive as a natural eventually. I do it well without conflict, I allow myself to be upset, maybe hold a grudge (I'm famous for that) for a while and find a reason to forgive, that has been me most of my life and I feel good about it.  Sometimes working harder on some personal connection I may feel a little guilty about, "I could have done more"...but why should I? My father, nope.  My mom was a big one, I gave her my heart the years before she past when she needed validation, forgiveness, I knew with forgiveness, I could take a burden away without a sacrifice, on the contrary, it's fulfilling and not in some grandiose way.

My current rs is so unique, I can't see similarities with any other rs.  I have been woken up to two things, myself and my insecurities, paranoia, fear etc...AND, a rs worth the self discovery.

Harri, I have had, still have a superiority complex whereas I put myself at a higher ability to be "deeper", more wise, having a wider scope in order to find something about myself that allows me to feel better when insecurity strikes, inadequacy, less than who I want to appear.  The fake facade that feels so natural, always protected in some way.

I have been lying my whole life. How I want to be seen, heard, thought of, that is what I've been doing, how can I be close with anyone doing this let alone expose myself to a woman that has some issues, but doesn't' have that facade I do and she sees right through it.

I need to expose myself, not act vulnerable, BE VULNERABLE.

I have trust issues, I need to trust more, not just accept. I need to trust that whether or not I'm accepted, I can't have an agenda, a controlling agenda, let's call it manipulation, that's what it is.  I want that with my love, I will focus and hope I'm as aware as I think I am...

I can see myself as the most trustworthy, therefore, nobody else compares which creates a false cycle that I reinforce at will.  All BS...I'm not so trustworthy, that's what I can fake.

The silent truth inside needs to outmatch the noisy less truthful exterior.  I'll start with my rs and maybe it will just spread...

[Skip]

You are doing good work here, my friend.  Keep pushing through it.

[Circle]

Sandb2015,
I have to be honest with you.
I find it disheartening that this person who has treated you so roughly is suddenly deemed so worthy of your 'everything'.
You now claim to feel obligated to support her.
You have made excuses for her behavior based upon her past.
She gets to treat you rough and eat her cake too!
Sorry, but I can't support that.
I am not saying that I am against you two being together.
Do as you will of course.
I just wish you had set up some stronger boundaries for yourself.
Something like 'sure, I will be with you again, but these are the limitations...'
It is also disappointing that everyone on here was willing to give you such a strong pat on the back as you jumped 100% back in to full co-dependency mode.
Caring doesn't mean that we always agree.
Please don't get defensive.
I am only saying these things because I am not only interested in the part of you that experiences energy from this relationship.
I also care about the part of you that is not being honored by yourself.

[Sandb2015]

Circle,

Thank you, no pretense please.

We are all wounded here in one way or another.  I am not moving back anytime soon even though it was mentioned.  I am doing an every other night sleepover and without sharing this with her, is probation.

I have choices and right now, as I am committed to working on this rs and myself of course, I am not blind to what has happened.  I will not move back in without some major changes. She can go off the rails again and that may happen.  Anything can happen.  The fact that I really came to a breaking point and remembering very clearly what my mindset was at the time, I can let go easier and hurt a whole lot less.

I am in a financial bind and that will change, that is priority for me and I would prefer my own place as I was before and take our rs in a positive area if possible.  I did set bounderies...no other male interests, she said yes, no unkindness, she said yes, no unraveling to total destruction, she said yes.

I won't tolerate anything that happened before as "part of who we are".

This is an opportunity for her while I dig into myself without distraction to decide if she is going to commit to a healthier rs.

I will not stop working on myself regardless.

I am honoring myself by keeping a healthy detachment and be especially in tuned to what messed me up and not get caught in what I was.  I am so aware of the codependency now that it is playing as subtitles in all interaction with her.

She is not worthy of "everything", worthy of just a chance, she's free to take as much rope to save something (us) or hang herself metaphorically of course.  I am brutally open to both.

I want her, I don't need her for my life if I have to sacrifice my "everything".  I can be happy and good without her, she will not be the captain of my ship.

I knew I needed to forgive and as harsh as that is, I can't move forward without doing that.  The last few days have brought up my blame and anger when I want to forgive and it's been a real cause to self examine over and over (I do this alone, not in open discussion).  I will not get stuck in unresolved matters and I won't get caught on a roller coaster again.

I have read too much here to understand that if I'm not totally aware of myself and my codependent tendencies, I will get caught up so deeply again, this is not the case now.

Before it was her and her wants, her feelings, her skewed perspective, her blame etc. and no me, I gave her all of me and I lost myself because of love and needing to be loved.

Now, there is a me and a her, the lines aren't blurry to me and I don't need resentment or anger to keep the lines clear, it's just me and her which didn't exist before.

Last night I slept over and we were working on some required writing for her son's college counselors pre application assignment.  It required 7 questions to be answered in detail to be completed by the parent.  I've always done this stuff as my writing tends to be better and has more "flair", necessary embellishments and all.  I would sometimes get criticized because I controlled many things about the process (codependent), last night she would jump in and say no, I think this or that or I want to say this...before, I would resist it all the way to the point of over the top stubbornness and it would turn into a mess, again, control, the thing I thought I needed and couldn't let go of...last night when she disagreed, I humbly smiled and said, yes, you need to have a point of view also or have what you want to be written.  She realized what I did, I stopped myself and she asked if I'm hurt or offended, rejected, I giggled and smiled, no, you have a say also, she smiled and realized I took a step back and it meant something, more for me because I'm looking at myself now.

I know she hasn't changed, I have and the end product didn't have my sometimes overbearing control being met with her not wanting to go head to head with me about her ideas only for it to come back on me ten fold at anytime later.  It worked out very well with her sincere appreciation.

It took self reflection on my part which may help her to do the same.  I did make things worse I really did.  

She will have some cake and I will also, she can't have it all.

Full codependency mode...no way!  That isn't possible anymore, that egg is cracked forever and I'm grateful.
I'm more whole every single day and that is all mine.

Circle...I hear you loud and clear, thank you.  This is not over, fixed, tabula rasa, new fresh start...I need work, never finished and proud of the work I'm doing.

I'm a super strong moth and she may end up just being a strong flashlight.

Money is a real life factor and things are tough for both of us.

I'm a great person, huge heart, conscientious, considerate, try my best when I know what my best is.  I have so much to offer another woman, I know.  She has not broken every straw and it's possible, before it wasn't.

In a healthy rs, when one party, usually the male or man can't pull his financial weight, that is the thing that contributes greatly to a failed rs, that's a undeniable fact.  For now it's a stress outside of two people that are so different and potentially have a codependent dance that has stopped, it's time for a different dance and if I can't step up my financial game, a better dance.

BTW, I did confront her on some small lies and she did confess, I just wanted her to say the truth and it was tough, I knew the answer and I wanted to hear it.  She came apart the next day, Monday and asked how it felt to be lied to and eventually hear the truth, she wanted me to know how she felt, I said I understand as I've done the exact thing.  We will have many things like that happen, the difference is I won't lie, no reason to, even when it was my FIRST instinct to do so out of fear...I'm not cured, I am mindful.

[Circle]

Sandb2015,
True, we are all wounded.
Glad that you won't move back in without major changes, good job working on the boundaries.
Phew, glad to hear you are considering getting your own place before diving in with her.
Male interests, unkindness, unraveling: also good boundaries.
And also the 'what has happened before' stuff.
That seemed to me an excuse of hers for giving you heck before.
Good awareness on prior co-dependency and keeping a healthy detachment.
"I can be happy and good without her, she will not be the captain of my ship." (seems like a solid thought)
Yeah, its difficult to forgive, seems like you are actively processing your feelings of blame and anger though.
Seems like a good thing to look at, as you are doing: you and her being separate without blurriness.
Yeah, good work stepping back and letting her control the writing process to some degree (counseling app for son).
Hang in there with the money issues.
I know it doesn't help, when obligation feelings arise (single mom, etc.).
Just remember, it is not your duty to be a provider, unless you want to be.
You do have a lot to offer either her or another woman, this is a good point, as you have yourself and experience to offer.
Each person is only ethically required to pull their own weight in a relationship, in my opinion.
And, some women agree with this too.
Good job being 'mindful' as you say.
Have a good week!

[Sandb2015]

Thank you Circle...

It didn't take long for her to unravel, 5 days...I've been shut down and staying away from the boards.

We had an agreement, every other day sleep over, not moving back in, things were kinda restarting in a better way.

About a week ago, it all started again, "I don't love you, everything bad is your fault, I'm depressed because of you".  In a text, and again, I started my running again (less desperation, less begging), damage control as I thought.

I went to her job on Monday after being ignored.  I kiss her as she gets out of her car and she says, "wow, I automatically want to kiss you, strange".  She has said a lot of these things before as though it's not her, it's something else driving her, she has said that many times and as she kisses me, hugs me, she says it's just "muscle memory", an excuse for doing it as though she doesn't want to.  She promised me she doesn't love me, not even a little and we proceed into her job as a martial arts instructor/manager.  I waited a few hours there after she told me she is just going home after, I said, "no problem".  

So, after the place clears out as I watched her smile with people, talk with people, the place was empty.  She made it clear I can't change her mind...and then an argument started, again, blaming me for everything she sees as wrong, her son suffering with no crazy spring break trip like his wealthy friends, her divorce etc.  I was listening, not taking offense, I know how guilty she feels about many things she won't clearly say and I don't need her to, I know about guilt and I can express it without attacking or blaming others, she can't and I get it.

She seemed to unravel with anger and despair in a way I haven't seen and I said, "we'll start new, we'll get things done, we have each other, clean slate", she didn't listen, why would I expect that?  The blame continued...she said as horrible things as she ever has, it stung a whole lot less...She wished she never met me, she wished she never called me after the disaster of her short term guy that ended a few weeks ago and on and on.

She left me inside and stormed out, I didn't follow, I'm not that guy anymore.

I waited a few minutes and I locked the self locking door and she comes back yelling that she forgot her car keys inside as well as the door to the school...we're locked out and she is screaming and crying at me and again more insults...I'm bad luck.     I couldn't help returning the insult...

She calls an instructor that lives a few minutes away and he comes, nice kid, gives the key and he is perplexed by her frantic body language and he likes me and is staring at me, says,"what's wrong?" I say, "she thinks it's my fault" and his smile goes away and he really looks confused.  She is a master at hiding emotional anything and he saw a glimpse of something, he looked so confused, he's known her for 7 or 8 years and he's 20 now.  She got her bunch of keys, the kid left, she locked up and she moved quickly to her car and I followed, buckled her in and she turned from a kiss.  She continued yelling about not talking anymore etc., a repeat of so many other times.  After a few minutes, I call her, ask her to calm down and drive safe, she says, " why are you calling me, you drive safe" and hangs up.Meanwhile, her sister is texting me about how nice it was for all of us to be together last Sunday and she looks forward to more...yuck!

I didn't text or call after that, but had a texathon with her sister and her sister understands and doesn't make excuses but had some weird conclusions...that I take a break from her sister while we have a dating relationship...until we can have a life together?  She suggested I let her sister go and I can do better and she isn't fair to me.  They are seemingly close but without the personal sharing, that's all a secret that my love wants that way, she knows how much she'll be scrutinized if her family and friends are aware of her behavior, especially towards me as they all saw me as the "right one", the strong one to accept her and not leave...

Anyway, no communication at all on Tuesday and yesterday, I sent a good morning text, simple texts since then with some heartfelt quotes and nothing, today is Friday and the same, sent a good morning, thinking of you, wondering what's on your mind and I love you.  A little while ago, I sent a TEDTALK "Why do we sabotage love"...no response and not blocked either? as she loves to block me, not this time...

When we briefly got back together after she reached out to me, she asked that I please go to a wedding of a coworker, it was addressed to her+1 which pissed me off as they know we are living together and promised she didn't tell anyone we broke which I didn't care about (I confronted her and she said she did tell her mentor, the one I eat lunch with almost every week that she has no idea about).  The thing is, she sent the invite back before she broke up with "that guy".  I was a little pissed and I said yes, I wanted to leave her hanging, I didn't want to act out of spite and I was thinking in a positive way as always.  She said she didn't want to go alone and begged her son (BS).  I swallowed my own BS and said yes, I was looking forward to it.

We slow danced together the few days we got back together in her living room (we never did that) one night and discussed doing it at the wedding, she had tears in her eyes.


The wedding is 4/28 and I worked it out with her mentor that he will let me know the adress of the wedding reception, I will crash, everyone knows me anyway and doesn't have a clue.

The kicker...I informed the Master/Mentor that he will let me know if she is alone, if not, I don't think there is any hope, really.

If we don't communicate at all until then, I will get dressed as though I'm going and wait for the Master to let me know if she's alone and we will slow dance together.

If she's not alone, that's a bigger statement than I could imagine because she is so secretive about her "personal" life.  

I am not as frantic as I used to get, I see the "cycle" more than before, just getting over denial I guess.  The go away and come back stuff that was clearer and clearer after we didn't live together...it's becoming clearer now, I was recycled at least once (not replaced, Thanks WickerMan). I don't know what will happen with her, she really isn't in control of me as she was...

I will go to that wedding if she's alone and see what happens...until then, I'm not going too crazy and contacting her too much.  She is so good at indifference, I may only communicate at the wedding or never again.

She is depressed...that I know, she may be working on the next guy and trying to erase me again, that's fine, I'm not numb, I'm calmer about her going away and calmer about my choice to be able to do the same.

I've been so conflicted, I want a life with her and this merry-go-round, roller coaster ride will stop (we know that won't happen without T), slow down or I'll get off.

Right now she has about a year left to play catchup with her son, she has tremendous guilt and their rs is crap, always will be and it's a shame...she mentioned us after her son goes to college, I don't know.

I am becoming more and more aware of myself every single day as opposed to forgetting myself while taking abuse.

[zachira]

I can't put it into words how badly it feels to be lied to, manipulated, and taken advantage of by another person.

[once removed]

I don't know what will happen with her, she really isn't in control of me as she was...

SandB2015, honest question...

isnt all of this kind of a struggle for control?

[Sandb2015]

 zachira,

There are words...

Getting "stuck" in the rumination cycle, anger, confusion, frustration ...it ends the hard way inside of us...we can't make sense, never will, pieces fit and then not.

I have really "acquainted" myself with more than I should regarding BPD where I was denying that , "that's not me" and "that's not her".  This and that story are too far fetched, not really.

One of my own issues here and now is blame and forgiveness.  Blame gets in the way ultimately and it's hard to forgive.  Too much forgiveness leads to be drawn in but not as badly in my case.

From total confusion and pain to self analysis and healing to dealing better with hiding my issues with blame.  

I want her back and I see her and her actions clearer as I am seeing myself, I'm winning in a strange way.

Nothing makes sense, it just is, I look more closely at my steps than hers and I wasn't for a long time.

once removed,

Thank you, I guess you're saying she is controlling by not contacting me, not blocking me, not responding...well yes, could definitely be.  Please feel free to be a little more RAW, self reflection is valued when I'm meant to ask myself questions, please spell out more in case I miss the point. Do you think I am trying to control, I am, of course, I need to stay connected but not like before. 3 hours of commute= quite a bit of refection...

As I get stronger, I bet she's noticing, this all may be the struggle that she wants to call the shots as before and her grip isn't as powerful now.  I really don't know where this will go and as I projected so badly before, I do so much less now.

Will a pwBPD start to loose control of me and want to move on completely?  Is that what the stats predict?  I know I'm not the old S I was and I will not be where I was when I came broken into bits to this board in December.

I hate to compare this to a game or strategy regarding the use of "control".  Since patterns exist, we can predict something from action/inaction I'm presuming.

My Aunt was spelling out to me last time I stopped contact, I got a big reaction from her after a few days...is this the "game" I have to play.  I want her back, I need her, the connection regardless of the damage isn't broken I'm guessing...

[Circle]

Sandb2015,
This has to be such a roller-coaster of difficulty.
I think the "controlling" issue is the strategic way you think about this.
And, it is also her wanting to be in control.
Seems sort of like a power struggle.
At times it works for you to be strategic, making moves, and other times it backfires.
For example, deciding to go to this wedding without permission, is a way that you are being controlling.
I think in the same way at times.
Actually, I was just in a situation where I was strategically thinking, in a love situation.
I was pushed back and told to stop.
Which is the point where I need to stop, and not push further, as I have done before.

I read recently, how relationships where the power dynamic is clearly set, run smoothest.
Meaning, roles are clearly established.
One person is dominant, and the other is clearly submissive.
Seems to me that, until you get proficient at 'biting the bullet', you are going to keep struggling.
When she insults you, it doesn't help to snap back.
I know you know this.
I just say this, because she is so dominant.
And, you can be dominant too (strategizing, engaging in conflict, making moves, etc.).

Anyway, I admire your self-reflection.
It is great that you are growing so much from this situation (winning that way).
And, I am sorry you are struggling with all this.
Love is so difficult at times, especially when we let our hearts lead the way.
Hang in there!

[Sandb2015]

Thanks Circle,

Scenario depiction, strategizing, trying to be ahead of the wave so to speak is my nature across the board, not necessarily in a rs.

I am taking for granted that she is not going to contact me again and the only time I will have the chance will be at the wedding where it will be sink or swim...

If she is there with someone, I will know beforehand and not go.  She is so secretive about her personal life, especially work wise where everyone is social, picnics, pool parties, New Years Eve. It took a lot for her to integrate me and she was usually alone in social settings.  If she is with someone at the wedding, she is committed to that person and a statement as all coworkers will be there and that will be my exit ticket to this rs, no question.

If she isn't alone, I will try and if she shuns me, so be it, I will leave right away of course and her coworkers won't think much of anything.

It may be seen as control, I agree, it is an opportunity if we don't speak or communicate until then.  I don't want to be controlling because of my codependency and I'm getting a good grasp on it.  I think that day will be the place where we continue or end.

I'd never make a scene, not my style if she's alone, simple, she may say no, get lost.  So be it.

If she is there with someone, I won't go and it's over.

We may get to dance and connect, it's just an opportunity if in fact she won't communicate with me, I'm oddly not blocked...a lot can happen in a week so who knows.

These are plans that may change.  I haven't received any communication and I may who knows.  I have taken some advice from formflier about RA and I think I should back away from sending any texts regardless of how simple.  Just back up and see if she may come to me.

What are your thoughts? I feel strong enough for almost anything, good, bad, ugly and not get pulled back to where I was anyway.

[Circle]

Sandb2015,
I have to run in a second, so a less than full response on my part.
My thought is this.
I was reading an online advice thing written by a woman.
She had about five potential responses for when a woman is acting disinterested or "aloof".
They all involved some form of detaching on the male's part.
This included the reverse psychology of acting disinterested.
Also, not texting, as you are doing.
And, basically letting go.
How much more powerful would it be if you let her get back to the point of wanting you again?
What if you wait and let her reach out?
Have you done that before?
Did she reach out?

All I am concerned about is that you keep your boundaries up and don't get codependent, supporting her financially, etc (no need to reply/address this).

Anyway, those are my thoughts.
At this point, I too am wrestling with my urge to: reply, explain myself, etc.
My consolation is that I have already made an effort.
And, I have nothing to regret, because I tried.

[Sandb2015]

Circle,

Thanks for taking the time.  I do not feel any regret whatsoever, I did a little before, she tried as a means of control or having the reason to act out, definitely not now.  Regret is something I make amends with asap, even under the worst circumstances, I am sincerely apologetic when it's painful and I do it or forgive some terrible things inside my heart and mind and in person.

I deal with possible regrets quickly and feel no fear confronting the possibilities of them, I'm so clear.  I even give great thoughts to how I blame so I can eventually clarify my wrongdoings.  I did devalue her as a means to an end within myself, I would never do that to her.  I know it's a crappy shortcut, but it works.  I don't regret that.

I don't remember as a map as to how my action/inaction have brought about a response, my wonderful and loving Aunt has remembered, she said last time you left her alone, she contacted you with a sense of desperation.  I just don't remember and maybe keeping track makes sense, I won't though, keeping track of this on a spreadsheet would make me ill.

If I let go, it will be with the same intensity I am holding on, this I know.

I've never been the type to sit idly by and "pretend" I'm not waiting, hoping, I cut.  In this case, I feel like I have to cut deep to find the strings that attach me and I won't until the bitter end...

I have learned survival skills (unhealthy/healthy) from childhood...not unique and will gladly express what they are to the curious ...I have never loved like this and if I must cut, there will never be a chance after I'm pretty sure...I feel compelled to let this play out even as I hurt, not broken,I was, not now, can't be broken as I was, but hurt, yes.  Hurt and being broken are two different things now, very much so.

I want to keep the healthy ones and I am dealing with the unhealthy skills in a concentrated way.  The unhealthy skills have a role in this rs and the healthy skills have a role now in getting stronger.

Fight or flight after 72 hours of Methamphetamine. (I don't do drugs).  This seems to be my reaction to things...calmer than before.

[I Am Redeemed]

This thread has reached the posting limit and is now locked. Please feel free to continue the discussion in another thread. Thank you, and have a great day!