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Author Topic: Psychopath Free  (Read 423 times)
JNChell
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« on: June 02, 2019, 04:49:30 PM »

I’m currently reading “Psychopath Free: Recovering From Emotionally Abusive Relationships With Narcissists, Sociopaths and Other Toxic People” by Jackson MacKenzie. It’s a book about romantic relationships with these personality types and a very validating read. He talks about “Identity Erosion”. I like that term and we discuss it here. Identity erosion comes after being idealized and hooked. He describes it as part of a grooming process. I’ll push the brakes here for a moment and state that I’m not really on board with how he describes every spectrum and subset as psychopaths, but I can understand why it is generalized under that umbrella for the readership and those that are lost and looking for answers.

Anyway, as I’m reading this book, I am reading my story. The patterns are nearly identical. Identity Erosion. Once we lose ourselves, we’re basically at their mercy. There are differing opinions on who these folks are within this community, and I feel that that is the healthiest approach. Yes, there is a “but”, but, I also feel that, after a lot of studying, that many of us have encountered romantic partners that truly are out to harm us from the onset. I don’t think that it’s an unreasonable thing to feel. S’4’s mom eventually showed herself as a very cold, mean and calculated person. I don’t think that she fit what I’m trying to convey here. I saw her red and crying eyes when she raged at me for the last time in front of S4, but I do believe that she had many moments where she planned and triangulated. I know it in my gut with what I know now. I was drawn into drama triangles...a lot and I didn’t know it. I was rescuing.

From what I’ve gathered, Identity Erosion is the systematic breaking down of our sense of self. We’re being mirrored in a way that basically mystifies us. The compliments we receive and the comparisons that are made between us and their exes are actually expectations of us. Passive ways of telling us how we should behave.

This is a very interesting book. The author is not a mental health professional. He’s a peer with experiences like ours. That’s one thing I like about the book. He’s one of us.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on Identity Erosion? Does it strike a chord? I’m eager to hear.
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« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2019, 04:55:56 PM »

The author is not a mental health professional.

JNChell, i say this because youre a man who likes to know: Psychopath Free is the junkiest of junk psychology.

careful reading.
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« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2019, 05:14:26 PM »

Point respectfully taken. It’s not leading me down the “junk” path, this place is my number one resource and support. Since I brought it here, and you’ve identified it as a poor source, why is it junk psychology? You’re wiser than me on this stuff, and I’m saying that with sincerity and respect. I don’t want to lead anyone astray.
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« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2019, 05:43:45 PM »

 Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post), man. Now I don’t even want to finish the book. I think that the first part of the book where he describes disordered behaviors is relevant. He shouldn’t be guiding anyone on how to heal in the second part of the book. This is why I gave up my seat.
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« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2019, 06:29:17 PM »

Excerpt
I’m not really on board with how he describes every spectrum and subset as psychopaths, but I can understand why it is generalized under that umbrella for the readership and those that are lost and looking for answers.

this is how you know something is junk psychology 

Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post), man. Now I don’t even want to finish the book.

finish the book. you paid for it. you might as well  . then question the book. reality test the book. i read scores of junk psychology way back when. probing this stuff is how we learn.

on the subject of identity erosion...

one of the problems with the book (and books like them) is that it takes very basic (if immature) human interactions and describes them in dire terms of a cunning predator mastermind.

there are a few problems with that.

Excerpt
Identity erosion comes after being idealized and hooked.

idealization and "hooking" are a part of every romantic relationship. we all see new partners through rose colored glasses. we all put our best foot forward in order to attract (hook) a mate. people with BPD (or NPD, or another other disorder) do this. people without BPD do this. its just romance and human nature.

what separates "BPD idealization" is just that its more extreme...and how much we eat it up, which is more about how we see ourselves than how they see us.

Excerpt
The compliments we receive and the comparisons that are made between us and their exes are actually expectations of us. Passive ways of telling us how we should behave.

we all do this. we all have ways, both direct, and indirect, of "teaching" people how to love us, and how to treat us, how to meet our wants and needs. some ways are more mature than others. "my boyfriend or girlfriend used to do this for me" as a hintity hint hint is probably not the best way to do it. but is it any more malicious, or even any different, than say, dropping hints about what your lover can get you for christmas? or when a child says to their parent "once removeds dad is cool, he lets us play video games!".

those are technically manipulative things. but if your reaction is "well, id better let you play video games so i can be cool like once removed", thats not someone else eroding your identity.

Excerpt
He describes it as part of a grooming process
...
Once we lose ourselves, we’re basically at their mercy.

people with personality disorders arent masterminds with special abilities. they are dysfunctional people, often obviously so, who lack the skills or ability to manage their own lives. if they have the ability to erode someones identity, imagine how they could put that power to use. they could pretty much rule the world, right?

Excerpt
I also feel that, after a lot of studying, that many of us have encountered romantic partners that truly are out to harm us from the onset. I don’t think that it’s an unreasonable thing to feel. S’4’s mom eventually showed herself as a very cold, mean and calculated person.

your ex may well be cold, mean, and calculating. my ex could be when she wanted. do you think that your ex planned to say nice things about you and have a child with you in order to harm you from the outset? arent there better, more efficient and profitable ways to harm someone than to get into a romantic relationship with them?
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« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2019, 07:54:09 PM »

Ok. Generalizations like this equate to junk psychology. I understand and realize that he wrote his book from his point of view. There has been very little scientific sources. He’s a peer. That’s what I’ve liked about it, but I understand what you’re saying. He’s taking his own personal experience and projecting it onto his potential readers. He’s generalizing his experience and saying that this is what happened and this is what you should do.

How much we eat it up. Agreed. No need to go into details. I think we both know why we have.

thats not someone else eroding your identity.

Sometimes it is, and sometimes it is that malicious. I’ve been there, I know. I appreciate your wisdom and leadership when it comes to guidance and acceptance, but sometimes it is what it is. I didn’t experience a woman with mood swings. I experienced a person that is full of vengeance and hidden anger. A mean individual. I understand your examples. They make sense, but they don’t apply to S4’s mom. She’s completely void of empathy. She has no understanding of it and doesn’t care to talk about it. There’s a difference between that and what you’re describing.

they could pretty much rule the world, right?

Well, they could pretty much rule their own world and those that get sucked in. In the spirit of self awareness, I got sucked in because of my own weaknesses and shortcomings. I accept that. or, S4’s mom lives in her own world. If you tried to have the conversations that I’ve tried to have with her, you’d understand. The tools don’t work. Nothing works. The only thing that makes it easier is my submission. I’m not ok with that.

I have to say that I sincerely don’t know about your last set of questions. She profited off of me for sure. At the very end I was emotionally spent. I ended up in the hospital for a second time with her. I had never even been close to something like that before. I was 40 at the time. That’s when my best friend scooped me up and told me I was going going home with him for a while.

Depending on the dynamics, things can get very extreme and go sideways in bad ways.
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« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2019, 11:29:14 AM »

JNChell   Welcome new member (click to insert in post)

I don't know much about psychopaths. Your discussion was an interesting read to me.   

Yes, there is a “but”, but, I also feel that, after a lot of studying, that many of us have encountered romantic partners that truly are out to harm us from the onset.
I think this a bit dramatic. Maybe it's true, I don't doubt it because I don't know much about psychopaths. Looking back at my relationship—I don't think she was out to harm me from the outset. I think she really thought it would work, and so did I. But a lot of things got the better of us. I guess we had quite different views about what it means when a relationship 'works'.   


I don’t think that it’s an unreasonable thing to feel. S’4’s mom eventually showed herself as a very cold, mean and calculated person.
I appreciate a bit of what you mean here.

There were a few instances where I thought my UexpwBPDgf was manipulating on purpose. E.g., once during an argument, I called her out on her integrity, she said something like I "saw the real her" (integrity apparently(?) being a giant personal flaw to her). I think when a person does things like that—which I don't think are uncommon with pwBPDs—it's easy to see them as these master manipulators. I really felt like I was being conned from the start in that situation.


[...] but I do believe that she had many moments where she planned and triangulated.
Given the right set of experiences like the one above, if I had more of them, then yes me too, I'd think she was a more manipulative person. We know BP's aren't all the same. There could be some that are highly empathic, and some that are highly deficient in empathy.

And in addition to that, I think there are some BP's that aren't conscious of how they destroy relationships. Plainest example is how my BP-ex used to text third parties during the same idle times like browsing IG. I think it was built into her to triangulate in that way, and I don't think it was part of her conscious plan to "text X third-party prospects in this week to frustrate gotbushels Y amount to get Z reward of attention".

Of course, there are times where she would consciously seek a third-party to 'show me what it feels like' (to feel insecure), or to get attention, or whatever.

So I do think when we look at a BP in the broad sense, it's going to allow for your experience with your ex, and it's also going to allow for what once removed is saying.


Anyway, what are your thoughts on Identity Erosion? Does it strike a chord? I’m eager to hear.
I read what once removed  wrote about junky-junk , so I think I'll give a narrow discussion in the context of only what I've read from your post.   

The concept you describe reminds me of how Bowen and Kerr consider 'borrowed' self, and how Masterson describes how a fragmented self uses another's self's capacities in order to function. So with that broader context, I can see how this makes sense:
Identity Erosion is the systematic breaking down of our sense of self. [...]
The loss of sense of self we feel may be because we are loaning our selves to the partner. We could also be loaning our self capacities to the other. E.g., enabling (I think?) is a type of self-loaning. E.g., enmeshment (I think this is quite typical/necessary of BP relationships) also has some giving up of an individual's preferences. So I think these all may be experienced as a breaking down, or loss, or sense of self.


The compliments we receive and the comparisons that are made between us and their exes are actually expectations of us. Passive ways of telling us how we should behave.
I thought this is quite a useful/fun thing to discuss. On the one hand, a person can buy in to what the ex is saying, and start competing with this perceived competition. On the other hand, a person can feel secure enough in what they're bringing to the table, and thereby disregard the attempt at trying to make you compete in whatever 'race' they're constructing. I think this is more of practical knowhow when it comes to relationships rather than trying to build a connection between who has more of this awareness based on how much self they have (or if they have X traits of mental illness).

From there, we can ask ourselves, can we see how a person is trying to communicate this 'should' to us today? Being aware of that, do we have a choice about behaving in the way he/she wants? If the person seems healthy, what are his/her motives for behaving this way?
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« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2019, 12:01:17 PM »

Excerpt
I didn’t experience a woman with mood swings. I experienced a person that is full of vengeance and hidden anger. A mean individual. I understand your examples. They make sense, but they don’t apply to S4’s mom.

im not arguing that with you, friend 

in one of the examples you provide, the book describes someone who would compare us to an ex as part of a psychopathic plot to make us behave in a certain way, and erode our identity.

im suggesting that doing so isnt great to do (any more than when a spouse says "youre just like your mother/father") but is a far cry from psychopathy, sociopathy, or even personality disordered behavior.

thats the risk with books like these. if we want to better understand ourselves and others, and the complexities of human nature, this book characterizes really typical behavior/interactions that all or most of us have done, and stretches them in really extreme, dangerous terms, and tells us we are helpless and powerless in the face of it.
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« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2019, 03:20:07 PM »

I believe that we often do not know what our vulnerabilities are and what we have to work on until we get involved with a partner who can leave us feeling devastated for long periods of time. The longer we stay in a relationship with someone that erodes our self esteem, the harder it is to end the relationship. Those who grow up in a home where the building of a strong healthy identity is supported, usually find it easier to see people for who they are and stay away from those that are abusive. I don't exactly believe in identity erosion. I think that the strong foundation was missing to begin with because of childhood abuse, and not having the support from adults that is needed during childhood to develop a healthy identity.
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« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2019, 03:28:35 PM »

Excerpt
this book characterizes really typical behavior/interactions that all or most of us have done, and stretches them in really extreme, dangerous terms,

Isn't this what BPD looks like in real life?  Taken one by one, the behaviors that my BPDex exhibited could very easily be described as one-off, typical human interactions, some less mature than others.  Taken in sum, with predictable regularity, over a long period of time, those same behaviors become extreme and dangerous.

I haven't read the book, but am enjoying the discussion.   
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« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2019, 05:07:03 PM »

Isn't this what BPD looks like in real life?  Taken one by one, the behaviors that my BPDex exhibited could very easily be described as one-off, typical human interactions, some less mature than others. 

i think thats the crux of it; as well as more deeply ingrained than others.

the key is understanding the differences between what is common, if immature behavior, deep pathological dysfunction, and flat out danger...human nature, and all of the different motivations that drive it.

a lot of literature out there blurs and obscures those differences.
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« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2019, 07:32:29 PM »

or

idealization and "hooking" are a part of every romantic relationship.

I understand this, but it was very different with S4’s mom. I can’t group into how this scenario played out in any of my other relationships. This one was very different.

we all do this. we all have ways, both direct, and indirect, of "teaching" people how to love us, and how to treat us, how to meet our wants and needs.

Again, read above. I was once told that I should put up with her BS no matter what it was if I loved her. That’s not normal, nor was it for me to keep trying.

thats not someone else eroding your identity.

I’m very glad that you said this. It brings things back to where they should be. Front and center.

I know that S4’s mom isn’t a psychopath. I mentioned how I thought the author was using the term as an umbrella for his readership. I think it’s irresponsible to do that. To be honest, I’m on the fence about what S4’s mom was up to. Her ex husband: Met him, got pregnant within 5 months. After their daughter was born she ran off multiple times taking the child. Hooked up with multiple men and would eventually return home to her husband after exposing the child to at least some of these men. I experienced the same pattern.



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« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2019, 07:55:30 PM »

GB

I think this a bit dramatic.

I can understand how it would look like this. I should mention the misandry that is present in her family dynamic. She was taken away from her father at age 8 and wouldn’t see him again for 10 years. He never pursued her and still doesn’t. She travels 1000 miles every year to go to him. She has 2 sisters and the dad creates competition between them. She’s angry at her father, but she takes it out elsewhere. She simply wants her dad, and wants him to want her, but it will never be the way that she wants it. There’s a lot more involved with that, but this isn’t the thread.

In a way, it’s like she’s out for revenge. She enjoys punishing. I know her and I’ve experienced her. She’s chained to her FOO. The a’holes that damaged her. In true BPD fashion she always turned to them when I was trying to help her. It’s her pattern.

Maybe she wasn’t out to get me at the onset. Maybe I am being dramatic about that. I recall being a broken and sobbing mess at an exchange with S4 a couple of months after the final break up. I remember looking at her and she had a squinty eyed grin while looking at my despair. It was almost a look of wonderment. Pride, even. She has no empathy.
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« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2019, 08:11:58 PM »

z

I think that the strong foundation was missing to begin with because of childhood abuse, and not having the support from adults that is needed during childhood to develop a healthy identity.

This is awesome, not really, but you know what I mean. There was no real identity to erode, for the most part. Fragments of what we’d like to see, but nothing solid. Maybe there was a perceived void there. A void of not being treated poorly since that was what our mind and body were accustomed to. It wasn’t Identity Erosion. Maybe it was repetition compulsion. As I sit here and type, this is making sense, once again.  It’s easy to forget and to let old habits take the helm. I’m highly influential as a person. This has been more of a negative than a positive for me throughout my life. I’ve been working on this and it lines up with healthy boundaries. I’m really glad that you shared your mind. Right place, right time.
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« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2019, 10:02:33 AM »

In a way, it’s like she’s out for revenge. She enjoys punishing. I know her and I’ve experienced her.
That's intense.

I remember looking at her and she had a squinty eyed grin while looking at my despair. It was almost a look of wonderment. Pride, even. She has no empathy.
I appreciate what this could be like. I went through an experience like that with my ex. She thought of ways to humiliate me during one of our breakups. It feels quite sinister looking back. Personally I find it difficult to relate because as unpleasant as my ex was, I wouldn't describe her as having 0 empathy. Momentarily diabolical maybe–but permanently empathically crippled is another story. That must have been rough for you. But I'm happy for you that you're away from it and can do something to avoid being in that kind of relationship again.
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« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2019, 01:09:25 PM »


they could pretty much rule the world, right?


Hate to say it but some (many) do.

Otherwise I would on the whole say that yes most of these people actually have very poor relational skills and as a result are extremely unhappy because of it and I say it  having witnessed it first hand in my family and with my BPDex. Even those that rule the world are likely deeply unhappy but they're too busy picking fights to have to contend with the gaping hole that is inside them.

Anything that puts blame on a certain group of people I think we need to be weary about. My mother saw evil manipulative habits in three year old children. And the thing is three year old children can be manipulative, but evil? She was projecting adult thinking onto them and I realized she did that to me too as a child. I was evil the moment I had a personality and stopped idealizing her. To top it off she can be extremely manipulative and mean, but is it intentional? Or is it a childish reaction to feeling insecure? Kind of like when someone you love suddenly has a major success in their life and you're worried they'll leave you because they will have so many new opportunities. Do you try and stop them from succeeding because you don't want to lose them? It's selfish and immature, but also sometimes I think it's basic human reaction that stems from a desire to be loved and to hang on to someone we love, and to feeling unhappy and insecure in our own lives. Sadly, if we do not have a healthy family, where are we supposed to learn emotional intelligence skills that will allow us to build solid and rewarding relationships?

Balance out your reading with some good resources and see if you can spot the difference. I'm a big fan of Tara Brach, Brene Brown although these authors/speakers really focus inwardly (on ourselves) and less so on others. I find them quite inspiring and empowering. Strangely enough I really liked the "7 habits" and I'm not really into these formulaic books that promise success. But it had some excellent advice on how to deepen and value the relationships in your life. Certainly made me realize that I was somewhat neglectful of the people I cared about/who cared about me and really changed that aspect around for me.
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« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2019, 11:19:58 PM »

idealization and "hooking" are a part of every romantic relationship.

I understand this, but it was very different with S4’s mom. I can’t group into how this scenario played out in any of my other relationships. This one was very different.

i can understand that. more extreme, would you say?
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