I'm supposed to pick up my wife today

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=337112.30

So I'm supposed to pick my wife up some time today. She did get the shot last night. I saw her yesterday and she is saying the right things, and generally being nice, if a bit sedated. I'm pretty nervous about her coming home, and about me spending more time there. Tonight is when I would normally go play trivia at the brewery. The last time I played is the night I called 911.  It seems obvious to me that I should not go tonight, but I'm learning that my own instincts on these things are not very good. It also seems like maybe I shouldn't spend all my time doting on and catering to her just because she cut herself, lit the rug on fire, and made her way to the psych hospital. Still, seems bad to go to the brewery on the night she gets back, right? Seems like I've also read that the first days after being released from an involuntary hold are among the most dangerous with regard to suicide.

[stolencrumbs]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=337112.30

So I'm supposed to pick my wife up some time today. She did get the shot last night. I saw her yesterday and she is saying the right things, and generally being nice, if a bit sedated. I'm pretty nervous about her coming home, and about me spending more time there. Tonight is when I would normally go play trivia at the brewery. The last time I played is the night I called 911.  It seems obvious to me that I should not go tonight, but I'm learning that my own instincts on these things are not very good. It also seems like maybe I shouldn't spend all my time doting on and catering to her just because she cut herself, lit the rug on fire, and made her way to the psych hospital. Still, seems bad to go to the brewery on the night she gets back, right? Seems like I've also read that the first days after being released from an involuntary hold are among the most dangerous with regard to suicide.

[formflier]

I would tend to think you should be around almost all the time, other than quick errands.

I would suggest you ask her team (ask the doc preferably) and make sure you have you next appointments in hand.

For your "thinking", this is kinda a reset point.  Had she not been hospitalized I would advise you live your own life.  Now that she is in a big transition, I'm hopeful her team will have some direction for you.

Best,

FF

[sweetheart]

sc I don’t think there’s anything wrong with spending tonight with your wife and helping her settle back in at home. I would want my partner to do that for me if I was just discharged from hospital. She will be feeling fragile, and as you say sedated from the injection.
Does she have any follow up care from the hospital, a treatment plan, an out-patient appointment with a psychiatrist or mental health practitioner?

[stolencrumbs]

sc I don’t think there’s anything wrong with spending tonight with your wife and helping her settle back in at home. I would want my partner to do that for me if I was just discharged from hospital. She will be feeling fragile, and as you say sedated from the injection.
Does she have any follow up care from the hospital, a treatment plan, an out-patient appointment with a psychiatrist or mental health practitioner?

Thanks. Yes. She has appointments set up with a psychiatrist to monitor the meds, she is set up to do the intensive outpatient program, and she has appointments set up with her T. I think the first appointments are this week.

[sweetheart]

sc that all sounds really positive, it’s a good follow up care plan.
I’m in the U.K. so it’s different, but it might be worth asking her care team if they have a support for Carers contact. It’s something I had access to for many years and it has been an absolute lifeline to help support me with worries about my h’s issues.

It is ok to be worried and anxious about your wife returning home, it is a big deal for both of you. Things have changed because of what has happened.
Do you have an crisis contact number in the event anything happens over the next few days, especially for nighttime?

[I Am Redeemed]

Seems like I've also read that the first days after being released from an involuntary hold are among the most dangerous with regard to suicide.

I don't want to alarm you, but that is exactly what happened with my mother. She attempted suicide two days after being released from the psych hospital, and no one saw it coming. She seemed fine, according to my family members (I was too young to remember).

Of course, you can't watch your wife's every move, but I do think this is still a fragile time and it would not be unreasonable to stay with her. She only just got the medication.

[boatingwoman]

My opinion is that you should go out for an hour tonight to get some breathing space for yourself. Are you now suddenly her caregiver? Did you agree to that?

[GaGrl]

It's a critical transition period. It feels as if the situation would be safer if you stayed with her this evening. She might need or want a few items -- if you run out to get something, she could go with you, or you could minimize the time away.

What is the situation with her parents? Will you get any help there?

What do you anticipate she will want to talk about tonight?

[stolencrumbs]

It's a critical transition period. It feels as if the situation would be safer if you stayed with her this evening. She might need or want a few items -- if you run out to get something, she could go with you, or you could minimize the time away.

What is the situation with her parents? Will you get any help there?

What do you anticipate she will want to talk about tonight?

Her parents probably won’t come until the weekend or early next week. I don’t know what to anticipate. I’m happy to stay with her tonight if that’s what she wants. I imagine she will have lots of emails and texts that she’ll want to respond to. And she’s been going to sleep around 10 this week, so hopefully that continues. It’s just been a really long time since we’ve been in a house together with her not screaming or on the brink of screaming. What she has wanted in visits are assurances that we are going to work things out and be together. I don’t want to talk about that the day she gets back. I guess I also worry about having the same conversations we’ve been having for years. I don’t want that. Basically I don’t want to be trying to figure out our relationship right now. I am happy to do things for her, get things she might need, be here with her, etc. I don’t want her to push for more than that from me right now. I feel like that’s what I can give.

[boatingwoman]

Maybe put a lighthearted movie on like Crazy Rich Asians  or the show Claws (it’s funny).

[GaGrl]

I can completely "get" what you are saying about not having a relationship conversation tonight. The focus can be on her and her health, first and foremost. Conversations about the future can be postponed for the right (and better) time.

All that being said, what can you say it she presses and then starts screaming? Is that a possibility?

[babyducks]

It’s just been a really long time since we’ve been in a house together with her not screaming or on the brink of screaming.

Hi SC,

Seems like you have this very unusual living situation where she stays in the martial home and is in control of when and how long you can stay there.     I hope this hospital stay can be a spring board towards changing that.   resolving that in some way that works for you.

I hope all goes well for you tonight and that things remain peaceful.   

If you have time let us know how you are making out.     we care.

'ducks

[formflier]

I'm hopeful this is a major turning point for the better.

Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

Hi SC,

Seems like you have this very unusual living situation where she stays in the martial home and is in control of when and how long you can stay there.     I hope this hospital stay can be a spring board towards changing that.   resolving that in some way that works for you.

I hope all goes well for you tonight and that things remain peaceful.   

If you have time let us know how you are making out.     we care.

'ducks

Last night was fine. There were no attempts to talk about anything serious, which was good with me. She is still on "hospital time," so she was in bed by 10:00. It would do wonders for her, I think, if she could stick with that schedule. The majority of the property damage in our house occurred between midnight and 4 am. I slept in another room.

I'm not sure what to think about sleeping arrangements. Yes, for years it has been entirely up to her when I was at the house and if I was allowed to stay there. I tried to think about it, and I may be missing a few nights, but I think I've spent five nights at my house over the past year+. I don't think I want to be there all of the time. I feel like that should be a step further down the line if things progress in a positive direction. But I also worry that if she wants me to move back in, that not doing so will keep things from progressing in a positive direction. But I need to be better at recognizing what I need and what works for me and being honest about that. I've gotten better at that, but I can easily see how the caretaker in me comes back out in full force if I'm there all the time. I'd like to maintain whatever perspective I've gained.

My T has pointed this out to me numerous times. I have gotten much better at not going into overdrive when she is dysregulated, and not trying to "fix" it and make her feel better. I am not nearly as good at not going into overdrive when she is being nice to me. I do feel like it's up to me to keep her happy, or not do something to make her mad. That's not a good motivation either. I need to work on that.

In unrelated news, almost all of my clothes were stolen out of my truck a few days ago. Who steals old clothes? I promise I'm not a snazzy dresser. And are you really going to use my old underwear and socks? There was nothing in the truck that was of any real value (including the truck itself), but the whole laundry basket was taken. I keep hoping I'll see a pile of clothes on campus somewhere, because surely they tossed them when they realized what they had. No such luck, yet. If my life were a story, no one would believe it. It'd be overwrought. 

[Enabler]

Hey Stolencrumbs,

Well done on what you have done so far. You are carefully and methodically picking your way through a minefield. It's an honour to see such care and consideration from another fellow human being. Top work 

I think it needs stating out loud that you not living in your own home, the home that you work and pay for is not any kind of solution. This self sacrificing mentality needs to be addressed and dealt with such that you EXCLUDE living out of your truck as an option AT ALL. I understand boundaries are for us to act on an enforce, however, we also have to consider our own basic needs. It's not bad to consider ourselves as important. Maybe not for now but sometime soon we should consider other workable solutions other than moving out to the truck if things turn bad again. Lock on bedroom door, call the police if she becomes destructive or threatening in the home... that kind of thing.

Finally, as FF says, this could be a great turning point for her. It may not be the great turning point for the relationship but I think you've come this far, you cared enough to call 911, and you'll care enough to support her in the short/medium term to give her the opportunity to grasp this opportunity. Maybe park decisions about the long term nature of the relationship (as you're hopeful she'll not mention it), and truly live day by day by day.

Enabler   

[formflier]

Last night was fine. 

I'm so relieved!  Glad for you!

Listen...for the concept of the "reset" button, could you apply that to staying at YOUR house?

Sounds like you had a good night in a separate room.  Can you pick a timeframe such as 2 weeks and focus on getting a good nights sleep.  It can do you wonders as well!

Instead of worry that she will bring up relationship talk, why not "flip it".  Expect that she will and be ready with a delaying tactic.

Obviously you guys need to have a talk at some point, yet we know for sure it doesn't need to be a "spur of the moment thing".  And..frankly, much of it will be "it depends"..right?

So..."that seems like an important talk where we should be at our best.  How about we go for coffee tomorrow at 2pm."

Do you think you can practice that?  Do that when time comes?

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

Stolen crumbs,  you are making significant progress in allowing her to experience and express her own emotions with out intervening.    These are big steps forward.

As I read your threads it seems that not living in your house is a pretty large and complicated issue.   It seems to have many separate parts.

I am going to be honest and say the idea of you living in your truck or office is pretty horrible to me.

If you were just daydreaming,    or thinking aloud,    how would you like your living situation to play out.  If there were no restrictions or limitations,  in your wildest dreams,  where would you like to be in 6 months?

[stolencrumbs]

Stolen crumbs,  you are making significant progress in allowing her to experience and express her own emotions with out intervening.    These are big steps forward.

As I read your threads it seems that not living in your house is a pretty large and complicated issue.   It seems to have many separate parts.

I am going to be honest and say the idea of you living in your truck or office is pretty horrible to me.

If you were just daydreaming,    or thinking aloud,    how would you like your living situation to play out.  If there were no restrictions or limitations,  in your wildest dreams,  where would you like to be in 6 months?

It is complicated. I know that from the outside it looks like the worst part of my current life. Objectively, it's pretty bad to not really have a home to go to. Subjectively, it does not actually bother me that much. It did, but not so much anymore.

In my wildest dreams, I would be in my own place--a small apartment somewhere close to work. I feel like whatever progress I've made has largely been because I have detached a good bit from the relationship. I wish that wasn't what it took for me to do things I should've been doing a long time ago, but it did. I'm pretty detached right now. I'm happier and, I think, healthier. I don't really know what to do with that or what that looks like living under the same roof. I fear that I will end up just giving back the independence and agency I've gained.

She is being kind and pleasant so far. And that's nice. But I can also see on day 2 of being home that she is angling to not continue taking the drug she is on when it's time for the next shot. She told me today she is feeling very restless and agitated, which are side effects of the drug. She is adamant that she does not have any psychosis or mania. (The dx on the discharge is just depression.) So, on her view, if she's being treated for depression, and that depression manifests itself in rage, then she doesn't need a drug that makes her restless and agitated. She is very smart and presents to doctors very well. I'd put money on her being able to talk her way out of taking this drug. And maybe it's not the right drug for her, I don't know. But it seems early to be angling to stop it.

And I guess she doesn't realize this, but the more she tries to convince me that she is in complete control, and doesn't lose control, and knew what she was doing, and can stop now, the more infuriated I get. My compassion hinges a lot on her not actually being capable of managing her emotions without learning new skills and possibly taking medication. If the story becomes that she doesn't need any of that because she can control it herself, well...I don't know. I don't actually believe she can, but if it turns out she can...just damn. That'll be a gut punch.  

[formflier]

I feel like whatever progress I've made has largely been because I have detached a good bit from the relationship.



I don't really know what to do with that or what that looks like living under the same roof.

 I fear that I will end up just giving back the independence and agency I've gained.

This is a very introspective thing for you to say.  I would agree..detachment (I would use the word "distance" or "less enmeshment")

I also agree your living situation and reasons are very complicated.  Many things are interrelated...or appear so.  I think extreme boundaries in thinking about these will be most helpful.

So...I would suggest you stay at the house and if she tries to press to take away independence..you use boundaries (very different than fighting with her).

If it doesn't work out...then your ultimate boundary is living somewhere else. 

My guess in the short run is it will be ok.  Let treatment continue.

Things should look clearer to you in 30/60 days.

Let her angle for all she wants.  Extreme boundaries here as well.  What she wants and what she does will likely be different for a while.

We can talk about next shot a week before it is time.  Perhaps it is best to give it a rest between now and then.

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

SC,
Upstream you mentioned getting better at identifying what you need and what works for you.   I am suggesting you use your wildest dreams as gentle guidelines to help you glide in that direction.    Certainly as things progress you can adjust those guidelines.   

In my wildest dreams I would retire from the career I have now, return to school and finish my doctorate in a totally different field.    Doesn't mean I am going to do that,  but it does shine light on which path forward is more likely to make me happy and give me a sense of accomplishment.

In other words,   trying to pick a direction to head in is easier when I let my thoughts run free.

[boatingwoman]

I’m kinda thinking you keep the house and put her in a small apartment.

Good luck. Nothing magically changed here.  It’s a question now of whether she will stop scheming and stop acting crazy now that her brain has been tempered. (Sounds like it’s headed back to how it was, but you never know).

[stolencrumbs]

SC,
Upstream you mentioned getting better at identifying what you need and what works for you.   I am suggesting you use your wildest dreams as gentle guidelines to help you glide in that direction.    Certainly as things progress you can adjust those guidelines.   

In my wildest dreams I would retire from the career I have now, return to school and finish my doctorate in a totally different field.    Doesn't mean I am going to do that,  but it does shine light on which path forward is more likely to make me happy and give me a sense of accomplishment.

In other words,   trying to pick a direction to head in is easier when I let my thoughts run free.

I don't think I have that hard of a time imagining the life I want. I have a hard time saying it out loud, and a harder time actually living it. I love my job. I created the program I now direct from the ground up. I proposed it, moved it through the administrative process, designed the curriculum, made the promotional material, designed the website, recruited students, and now direct the program. It's only in its second year of operation. I don't want to leave my job. I want to grow the program and make it what I envisioned when I proposed it.

I want to live more simply (by choice instead of by necessity as I have been.) I want a smaller house, less stuff, a smaller garden, less upkeep, fewer expenses. I want to work one job. I want to see my family more. I want to spend time with friends. I love the friends I've made here. I want to travel to see friends I have who aren't here. I want to play my guitar. I want to sit on my porch at night and drink a beer or three.

And I would love to have someone to enjoy some of that with.

All of that feels like it is in opposition to any life I've had for the last fifteen years, where I try to squeeze in things that matter to me while I'm doing everything else. And living simply never happens. The house gets bigger, the garden gets bigger, the car gets more expensive, the amount of stuff grows, the list of chores grows.

I don't think it's a particularly far-fetched dream. It only seems far-fetched when I include my wife in the picture. I also don't know how much of it is just reactionary because of everything that has happened. But I suspect that people who have known me for a very long time would say "yeah, that life sounds like you."

Maybe that should give me guidance. I guess it does. But I'm also good at ignoring maps. 

[formflier]

That's a wonderful life!

Sign me up!

A good transition from psych hospital would be a good first step or two.

One step at a time...

Best,

FF

[empath]

And I guess she doesn't realize this, but the more she tries to convince me that she is in complete control, and doesn't lose control, and knew what she was doing, and can stop now, the more infuriated I get. My compassion hinges a lot on her not actually being capable of managing her emotions without learning new skills and possibly taking medication. If the story becomes that she doesn't need any of that because she can control it herself, well...I don't know. I don't actually believe she can, but if it turns out she can...just damn. That'll be a gut punch. 

SC, when my h moved out 15 months ago, he was having a "mental health crisis" by his description to me. I also saw signs of his self-injuring. He had been on an antidepressant for about 3 years, but one of the side effects of that med was anxiety. So, I told him when he moved out that he needed to find a counselor and be COMPLETELY honest with them (he had been not so honest with a former counselor). He went for a few times then said he felt better. About a month later, he decided to stop taking his antidepressant, and life became much more difficult for him to deal with. I knew when I heard that he stopped the AD, he would become more unstable again. Recently, he suggested he could move back in to save money (one of the consequences of the choices that he has made in the past year); I reminded him that the reason that we are in this situation was because he had a mental health crisis and still hasn't addressed those needs.

Our spouses have their own agency and can make their own decisions - as long as they aren't dangers to themselves or others.

Before my h moved out, I had been sleeping separately from him within our home for over 2 years. My h has a working knowledge of mental health issues and was aware of his own state; that's an unusual situation, I think.

I know that having the separate space for myself has been very important for my own healing and ability to engage without enabling my h's choices. I have some friends who are living separately from their spouses due to mental health or behavioral health issues, too. Sometimes, that's what is necessary for the safety and health of everyone involved.

[babyducks]

I don't think I have that hard of a time imagining the life I want. I have a hard time saying it out loud, and a harder time actually living it.

How does someone get to Carnegie Hall?   Practice, Practice, Practice.   

Practice saying it out loud with us here.     Practice the 'map reading' here.

Your wife is newly home.   She is adjusting.   You are adjusting.   It's early days yet.   I am suggesting you think about starting from this new point in the way you mean to go on.   

I like what empath said here:

having the separate space for myself has been very important for my own healing and ability to engage without enabling my h's choices.

Ultimately you define which way you want to go.    And it will take time to sort all that out.    keep sorting.    you've done great work to get to this point.    both you and your wife have a long road ahead of healing.    don't short yourself or your wants and needs.

'ducks

[Cat Familiar]

SC, can you give us an update?

[stolencrumbs]

This thread was split from here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=337153.0

SC, can you give us an update?

Thanks, Cat. Nothing really new. I slept in the basement last night again. It was mostly fine. It's still weird. I feel like there is a storm brewing. There were some snippy comments last night, then another snippy comment this morning admonishing me for not coming upstairs and helping with the dogs earlier. Then an email this morning telling me the next month was going to be hell because of the medication she's on. One of the things she snapped at me about last night was asking when the doctors appointments were and if she had information about the intensive outpatient treatment. It was during a conversation about the medication she's on, so I didn't just bring it up out of nowhere. She told me I needed to not ask her about that. She's trying. I can see that. But I also see some choppy waters ahead. I guess that's inevitable. We've literally not talked at all about any of it. I tried to gently start a conversation last night, and I might try again tonight when we go on a walk. I don't want to be pushy about it, but surely there is something that we can say to each other about it.

[formflier]

Expect her to be snippy...try not to take it personally.  Try not to "get hooked" into an argument.

She can ask you/tell you to drop it all she wants...you don't have to agree.

Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

Expect her to be snippy...try not to take it personally.  Try not to "get hooked" into an argument.

She can ask you/tell you to drop it all she wants...you don't have to agree.

Best,

FF

I'm not worried about getting hooked. I can handle snippy comments just fine. I guess I worry about her blowing up and asking me to leave, and then we're back to where we were. I don't think me being there is necessarily the best idea, but there's a difference between us deciding what arrangements work for us right now and me being told to leave during a meltdown. I'm probably getting ahead of myself. None of that has actually happened. Trying to just take things as they come while keeping the bigger picture in mind. I know it's all a process.

[Harri]

This thread reached maximum length and has been locked.  

Thank you