That didn't take long...

[stolencrumbs]

The other thread got locked, but this is a continuation of this--https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=337202.0.

So yesterday I was continuing the never ending mulching project. My wife left at some point while I was mulching. I apparently put mulch in a bed that she didn't want it in yet. She says she told me this, and maybe she did at some point in the past, but I did not remember this yesterday. Anyway, that was the start. It was very hurtful to her that I didn't listen to her about the mulch. This conversation went on for a bit. Then we went for a walk, and as we were leaving, she tells one of our dogs that he "can go for a walk again when his daddy (me) stops locking her up in the mental institution." Um, okay. I let that go in the moment.

The walk was normal for a bit. Then she starts complaining about the medication and how it makes her feel. That turns into complaining about the doctor, and that turns into complaining about the mental health system. Then she thanked me for locking her up in a prison and forcing her to take drugs she didn't want. I tried to agree with as much as I could, and obviously I share some of her concerns about the system. I then said that I didn't know what else to do when she sent me the picture of her bloody arms and the rug on fire. Then the flood gates opened. I was supposed to come over. I was supposed to not ignore her. Calling 911 was the biggest betrayal and something no husband should ever do. She then sped up her walk and walked ahead of me until we got back home.

Once home, I asked if we could continue talking tomorrow because I needed to eat (it was almost 9:00 at this point) and I had about an hour of work I needed to do. I asked if she wanted something to eat. She said no. I said ok, I'm going to grab something to eat and come back and work. I started to leave and she yells "just keep doing this. just keep it up." I guess I bit on that and came back into the room. She told me she had "radically forgiven" me for all the things I've done to her and had done nothing the past week except make repair attempts with me and that I had done nothing. I acknowledged things she has done and told her I appreciated all of it. I don't remember exactly what I said. Something about believing this was all going to be a process, that there was a lot that's happened that we were going to have to wade through individually and together. I asked again if we could talk tomorrow. She said her forgiveness was "withdrawn," her offer to let me be at home was withdrawn, and I should just leave. Then the convulsive crying started. Eventually I left and stayed in my office. I haven't communicated with her yet today.

I so don't want to stay at the house right now. And I feel guilty about that, because the thing I wanted for a long time was to just be home. 
 

[babyducks]

How are you feeling about this?

How do you feel about her 'offer' to be at home being withdrawn?

[boatingwoman]

I think it would be ok to tell her (I would like feedback from others on this) that every time she cuts herself and every time she destroys things and every time she sets things on fire, that you will call 911.

[Cat Familiar]

So she accepts no responsibility for any of her behavior and continues to blame you. And you feel guilty for choosing not to be her punching bag?

[stolencrumbs]

How are you feeling about this?

How do you feel about her 'offer' to be at home being withdrawn?

Honestly, a bit relieved.

And angry. I'm angry that she thinks she gets to determine how all of this is supposed to work, and that because she had "forgiven" me, that should be it. I literally do not have any recollection of me saying what I think or want or feel and it not being met with hostility. To be fair, I don't do that very much, but still.

 

[stolencrumbs]

So she accepts no responsibility for any of her behavior and continues to blame you. And you feel guilty for choosing not to be her punching bag?

The first part seems exactly right. I think I feel guilty that I don't trust her and don't trust that I won't be her punching bag, and that I'm not willing or able to spend all of my time trying to keep her from punching.

[Cat Familiar]

Do you feel obliged to remain in a relationship with a mentally ill woman who is abusive to you?

[stolencrumbs]

Do you feel obliged to remain in a relationship with a mentally ill woman who is abusive to you?

I think I'd be lying if I said "no". I guess I feel some obligation to keep trying. I don't think I believe that I have such an obligation, but I feel the pull of it, and I act as if I do.

[Cat Familiar]

I think I feel guilty that I don't trust her and don't trust that I won't be her punching bag, and that I'm not willing or able to spend all of my time trying to keep her from punching.

Has her behavior demonstrated that your trust is warranted?

[stolencrumbs]

Has her behavior demonstrated that your trust is warranted?

No. Not at all.

[formflier]

Hey...I'm sorry this played out this way.  I'm sure you were hoping for some gratitude and "relief" for a while.

  I'm angry that she thinks she gets to determine how all of this is supposed to work

Please don't take this as criticism...please take the following as two separate paths that you should think about...which one to walk down.

Path 1.  SC wife tries to kick you out or "allow" you to be in your home and you go on about staying there..perhaps you retire to you room...but she gets to process her feelings in her own way (likely poorly) that she no longer has control over when you come and go from your home   

Path 2  SC reduces "conflict of the moment" and picks to go sleep/hangout in a place "free from crazy" and yet still stops by when his wife "allows". 

I'm obviously a fan of and would likely pick path 1 (those that know me are nodding and saying "no doubt"), yet please don't hear me say path 2 is wrong or an invalid or unhealthy choice. 

Path 1 will likely have more conflict and less peace (at least in the short run) and path 2 will appear to have more peace in the short run yet will continue to "feed the monster"...the monster being that your wife controls your life.   

Path 2 does have an argument to be made that you are controlling your own life if there are times she demands you come..yet you choose what you want to do.

Of course there are nuances and variations and middle ground to all this.  I wanted to lay out what I see as the two big paths and let you sort through in your own time and own way...the path YOU want to walk.

I won't criticize either choice..

The only choice I think I would criticize is if one week you try 1 path and another week you try another path and then switch back and forth. 

OK...I'll hush with a question.  How does that strike you?  Have you thought of it in this way before?

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

She has told you in no uncertain terms that the purpose of her suicide attempt was to bring you (manipulation) to the house, to discharge her emotions into you. You may have suspected this. Any reasonable person seeing blood and a fire would call 911 -- yet she takes no accountability.

I agree with the previous suggestion that you should tell her that, since you are not a mental health professional, you will call 911 when you see suicidal and out-of-control behavior. Also, with FF's Path 1, you can also tell her will be in the house to support her in her mental health plan. This provides her support and security while also providing good boundaries. If the suicide attempt was manipulative, and she will not get what she intended but rather bears the consequence of in-patient care again -- those crisis behaviors might reduce intensity and frequency.

Oh, yes...and the mulch is the least of y'alls problems right now, so I hope you see an opening for blame for what it is.

T

[stolencrumbs]

I think for years I've been oscillating between the two paths. At this point, I definitely prefer path 2. But I think that may be because I'm done with this relationship. I don't really know what that feels like, but I feel like I might be there. And I'm not sure how to navigate that.

[formflier]

  you will call 911 when you see suicidal and out-of-control behavior. 

Be very specific here.

Use the phrase "even the hint".

You don't want to debate if xyz was suicidal behavior.

You are not only setting a boundary but saying...if I believe you are "anywhere close" to the boundary I will call.  (don't want her flirting with this boundary..zero tolerance)

FF

[formflier]

I think for years I've been oscillating between the two paths. At this point, I definitely prefer path 2. But I think that may be because I'm done with this relationship. I don't really know what that feels like, but I feel like I might be there. And I'm not sure how to navigate that.

 

You walk the path...and take it one step at a time.   Sometimes you stop and look around (and that's ok).

FF

[babyducks]

I literally do not have any recollection of me saying what I think or want or feel and it not being met with hostility. To be fair, I don't do that very much, but still.

as I read your posts this stands out to me.  it sound as if you are pretty good at validating her when her and your opinions are close or in alignment.    but when you disagree or her view of reality is distorted, you are reluctant to push against that for fear of triggering a deregulation.

part of the SET tool,   support, empathy and truth is truth.    personally I think the support and empathy are there to get us to the point of truth.    not The Truth, capital "T", but my truth.   if I had spent years stuffing my truth and not living my authentic life I would, honestly, feel like crap.

feng shui aside,   it makes sense that being in the house is uncomfortable.   there are a lot of negative memories.   there is more than a little walking on eggshells.   and I agree with Cat, there is a lot of abuse, and as your wife clearly told you, she threatens suicide and self harm to manipulate you.   "you are supposed to come over".

I agree with the others who said, continue to resist the manipulation.    when there is a threat of suicide call 911.    you've started to break that dynamic.   it's been difficult to do.    it's been a hard fought change.   

she is also manipulating you as to when you can come and go from your house.    think about how to lessen and then end that manipulation.    one of the phrases I used with my Ex was "I don't want to fight with you,  so I am going to ____blank__".

I don't want to fight with you so I am going fishing this weekend.  hopefully we will be able to talk without blame, when I come home.

I don't think we are any good for each other like this so I am going to rent a small apartment near campus and move there.  we can talk later about how that will change the house.

I feel like the way we live is harming both of us so I am going to start to change things.    I am going to ____blank________.

the manipulation has created Fear.   and Obligation.    and Guilt.    you've said as much in this thread.   You feel an obligation to keep trying.    you feel guilt that you don't trust her.    you fear a dysregulation.      I think it might be time to turn your attention to those emotions and find out what's real and warranted and what's distorted and overblown.   

another member livednlearned said this in a post on the legal board:

he did things that were bizarre. They were intended to intimidate me but they were so strange that mostly I was confused. Regular people found them bizarre and that helped me realize half my brain was accustomed to strange behaviors and half had a foothold in the normal world.

I wonder if that rings true for you?   if so I would suggest your job, or short term goal is gain more of a foothold in the normal world.     wanting to express your thoughts, feelings, needs without being met with hostility is perfectly normal.   it should be encouraged.   it can be practiced.     first with people other than your wife.     start small.   with the wait staff at the local diner,    'Mr. Stolen Crumbs can I seat you by the kitchen?',     No I would rather have the seat by the window.   

becoming more assertive isn't a switch that turns on over night.    you practice in small ways.    'Stolen Crumbs, I am going to move the meeting from 1PM to 4PM okay?'.     Sorry that doesn't work for me,...  we will need to discuss alternatives.   

You get it...

'ducks

[Enabler]

 

You walk the path...and take it one step at a time.   Sometimes you stop and look around (and that's ok).

FF

This is exactly how you do it. Like a legion of centurions, move slowly forward when you can in a controlled manner, take cover when you need to protected by your armour. Once the storm has died down, move forwards again. But don't step back.

If your wife was wearing a straight jacket and harnessed to a bed, would you allow her to make decisions for you?

Enabler

[boatingwoman]

You could tell her that it’s your house and you will be staying in the basement.  If she acts up, breaks things, sets a fire or whatnot, call 911 and send her back to the hospital. Sooner or later she will learn bad behavior equals hospital, and if she doesn’t like it enough and she is in control of herself enough, that will all stop. (Or get worse, but who knows... and she may need many hospitalizations before you see any movement in her behaviors).

Do you want to be a spouse or a parent?

Or do you want to walk away, which is your right, because you have had enough and parenting another adult is exhausting and has no benefits?

[stolencrumbs]

I am surprised at my own reaction to calling 911 and to her being in the hospital. I guess I hadn't really thought about how I'd feel afterwards. I feel more distant and more angry. I think my wife expected more sympathy and for me to kick into caretaker mode. I don't know. There is a lot to process and I haven't really processed many things in years and years. I need to sit with things. I need some space to do that. I don't know what happens with the relationship, but I know that is what I need right now. My dream would be for us to each focus on ourselves for some period of time and then see what happens when we are both in a better place, or at least when I'm in a better place and see and think more clearly.

I also feel really stupid. I don't know why the full force of the manipulation hasn't hit me before. I could see it, but the extent of it and the extent to which it has worked is hitting me pretty hard right now.

[GaGrl]

You are going through a sea change. Your wife may or may not pick up on this.

[Cat Familiar]

I don't know why the full force of the manipulation hasn't hit me before. I could see it, but the extent of it and the extent to which it has worked is hitting me pretty hard right now.

You didn't have an overview because you were constantly responding to the crisis du jour. Many of us have been exactly there. It's exhausting.

[stolencrumbs]

You are going through a sea change. Your wife may or may not pick up on this.

So do I clue her in? Try to talk about it? Or just do what I think is best and what I need to do and let her react to that?

[Cat Familiar]

So do I clue her in? Try to talk about it? Or just do what I think is best and what I need to do and let her react to that?

Have you had any success in the past with her attempting to understand your feelings? Or how her behavior has impacted you?

[stolencrumbs]

Have you had any success in the past with her attempting to understand your feelings? Or how her behavior has impacted you?

Rhetorical questions there, but yeah, not so much.

[babyducks]

So do I clue her in? Try to talk about it? Or just do what I think is best and what I need to do and let her react to that?

I would say tell her.  Not a discussion or a debate.    Deliver a message you feel comfortable with.    Mostly for your sake more  than for a real hope of your message sinking in.

Keep it very short and to the point.  Run it by the folks here.  Expect invalidation.    Expect a flurry of hostility.

I would aim for delivering your message and not backing down in the face of hostility.    Obviously don't stand there and go toe to toe for hours.  5 minutes.   No more than 10.   

Understand the details that are important to you won't be to her. 

If your message is I have lot to think over,   I am going to focus on myself and I hope you continue to work on yourself.  I will be out of touch periodically.    Her first question is likely to be how can I get in touch with you?    Followed quickly by when are you going to be back?   Or what are you doing?

What do you think?

[boatingwoman]

Denial isn’t working for you any more.  It’s uncomfortable, but it’s a big step forward.

[Harri]

This thread reached the maximum post limit and was split.  Part 2 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=337242.msg13058306#msg13058306

Thank you