When does the push-pull cycle end?

[Yoke]

This thread is a continuation of another thread which can be found here:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=337364.new#new

I understand.. so that push-pull cycle.. when does it end? Is it when they feel that you love them too much? Or they get tirrd of this cycle and need a "fresh one" for the honeymoon period? Or did they found someone more interesting who already has shown them love behind your back   ? And by that forces to devaluate u for good so it is all your fault.. ( they make u FEEL it is all your fault ) but its not you, its THEM..?

[Longterm]

It ends when they get treatment and stick to it for a prolonged period of time, for most this never happens.

The cycle will happen with the next partner. She would of devalued you before looking for a new partner.

They make you feel like your to blame and it's all your fault to avoid their shame and self reflection.

You must understand that you are dealing with someone who has arrested emotional development. She is a toddler in an adults body.

I suggest you read some literature on the subject to better understand the issues you are having. There is some on this site, not to mention a lot of stories that you will be able to relate to.

I know it hurts, but you are not alone.

[Mindfried]

Hi Yoke,

Looking at this from a different perspective does any of the below resonate with you:

For my new-age junkie friends, and also for those of you who are new to Eastern Philosophy, almost every person goes through one or more karmic relationships during their lifetime. Karmic relationships are not meant to last, and they are usually the biggest life lessons in love.

Karmic relationships are different from twin flame and soulmate relationships. In a spiritual context, karmic relationships are viewed from the lens of personal growth. Here are some of the signs of a karmic relationship.

1. They repeat patterns. If you’re on and off in your relationship, that is major sign it’s a karmic one. If you seem to be experiencing the same kinds of relationship problems, that is also a big red flag. Such relationships repeat the same patterns and remain stagnant, because the only way you can grow from them is by letting go.

2. They are selfish. Karmic relationships do not respect healthy boundaries in their partners. They serve only their own self-interest and needs. They are the perfect template for forming abusive or co-dependent relationship complexes. While one person is very invested, the other person views it more as a convenience.


3. They are addictive. They are characterized by highs and lows of passionate intensity. One or both partners are more in love with the idea of love, based on superficial reasons such as good looks, popularity, social or professional status.

4. They are controlling. They are obsessive and all about ownership of your partner. The other person becomes the center of your universe, and the main source of your happiness. You put them on a pedestal, and are unable to see their flaws.

5. They feel destined. You think that you cannot live without this person, and feel like you both are somehow meant to be together. You cannot fathom why it keeps failing, and you keep trying and hoping to get it right. They are extremely hard to resist, and keep drawing you in, until you learn what you need to from it.

6. There is an instant connection. Such relationships are marked by an immediate attraction. This person feels perfect to you. It feels like you have known them before, and you become instantly attached to them.

7. They create dependency. You begin to feel consumed by the relationship, and it begins to occupy your thoughts all the time. You can’t help handing them all the power. You become mentally, physically and emotionally dependent on this person.

8. They bring out your worst fears. They bring to the surface all the things you are deathly afraid of. Fear of abandonment, fear of commitment, fear of rejection, fear of loss, fear of emotional engulfment, and all the skeletons hiding in your closet.


9. They are irrational. They hold a mirror to your worst vulnerabilities and ugly insecurities. You start acting unlike yourself, and do things that you wouldn’t normally do.

10. They reveal your dark side. They show you your most undesirable and difficult characteristics that you were previously unaware of. They painfully remind you how human you actually are.

11. They are tumultuous. Such relationships are incredibly volatile, erratic and unpredictable. The best thing you can do for yourself is to identify such a relationship, and learn to let it go for your own good.

12. They push your buttons. The main purpose of these relationships is for you to learn how to properly love yourself and others, such that you stop trying to control your circumstances, become the master of your own ego, and focus on working on yourself.

13. They do not last. This person is not your forever person, how much ever you want to hope, wish and believe in your fairytale ending. Contrary to what you see on television and media, such relationships are born out of conflict and end in conflict. They are extremely unhealthy, and usually do not last. TC mark

https://thoughtcatalog.com/nikita-mor/2017/02/13-signs-youre-in-what-is-known-as-a-karmic-relationship/

[Longterm]

Mindfried.

An interesting Read, thanks for sharing.

[Wicker Man]

It ends when they get treatment and stick to it for a prolonged period of time, for most this never happens.

From what I have read (and experienced), it is all but impossible to have a healthy relationship with someone suffering from BPD until they seek treatment.  Longterm is correct from my research, and once again anecdotal experience, there is a lack of emotional maturity when it comes to interpersonal relationships.  In fact there is a 'movement' to start calling BPD EUPD (emotionally unstable personality disorder).  The term borderline referred to the idea of the sufferer living on the borderline between psychosis and neurosis.  Frankly, I think borderline fits from my experience.  She had bouts of hallucination (visual and auditory) and delusion I.e. psychosis.

"...to avoid their shame and self reflection."

Shame was, at one point, the impetus for her ghosting me and cheating on us..  She had broken a promise she had made to us (which was regarding her safety) and when I spoke to her about breaking the promise and her safety I believe the shame was too much for her.  I was even tempered and kind in speaking to her about her reckless behavior, but my concern and disappointment seemed to be too much for her. She fell back into dysfunctional coping mechanisms I.e shutting me out and hopping into bed with another guy...  Impulsive behavior is a way to momentarily easy emotional pain -however often the reckless behavior goes against their moral code and causes... more shame... 

Stress can be a major trigger which will bring on these bad coping / defense mechanisms (NSSI, psychosis, ghosting, cheating, breaking up, substance abuse).  In our final week we were talking about (me) buying a house (as a gift for her and her family).  The stress of the situation drove her around the bend.  She raged for a week and broke up with me.  Breaking up had always been a boundary for me -she knew it, but in the passion of the moment could not help but to break through this boundary.  she was so upset she literally had no control over her rage.

It was a wake up call for me which likely saved my life.  I had been forgiving and ignoring all manner of deviant behavior -when she broke up all of the data points snapped into a trend and I realized the relationship was not what I had hoped.  God -I smile and the understatement of 'not what I had hoped'...

"...you are dealing with someone who has arrested emotional development."

I knew from the beginning she loved me with the same absolute resolve and passion with which she hated me when upset.  She was the most passionate and sensitive person I have ever met --but she is a leaf blown in an emotional tempest.  She has no control over her emotional state whatsoever. 

I know it hurts, but you are not alone.

Ending my relationship with her has been the only failed relationship which haunted me.  I believe it is the cognitive dissonance created by being loved so deeply by someone and then having it end abruptly.  She did love me, She did hate me, and she did forget us from time to time. 

It is confusing because (I believe) for the BPD sufferer every one of these states of being is completely and utterly real -more real and intense than it was for us.  She was not playing or pretending -but lacking object consistency she could not maintain any one of these states of being.  18 months since our break up she is still using my surname on her social media account -still waiting for me to come back...  For those keeping score she initiated the break up...  However this blind obsessional love for me is the same delusional mechanism which would compel her to leave if I went back to her.  There is very likely nothing I could have done to keep us together.

This is the profound tragedy of BPD.  She wants to be... No she 'needs' to be loved -but she cannot keep the concept of her love for us straight in her head.  She rages out of fear and simply does not know how to say 'I am afraid' (direct quote from her).  She knows she is scared, but she is so terrified her limbic system falls into a hormonal rage fueled overdrive and losing the ability for analytical thought [Diffuse physiological arousal] (not a quote for her)...  This happens to all humans when in fight, flight freeze -for her sadly it happens faster, more frequently and it is all consuming.

Is it when they feel that you love them too much? Or they get tired of this cycle and need a "fresh one" for the honeymoon period?

You are a looking at this with the logic of a neuro-typical person.  If she does suffer from BPD there will not be a consistent and predictable logic to her emotional state.  When she splits someone (or something) black she will literally perceive this person or thing differently.  I read from a BPD sufferer she would sometimes split her dog black and literally see her dog as dirty and ugly.  I have read they find it terrifying to not be able to trust their perception of the world -I can only imagine. 

My point if she split you as bad then you are all bad and thus she needed to leave. We read often 'Feelings equal facts'  their emotional state is very painfully real to them. 

The idea of 'fresh one' or 'supply' isn't useful in my opinion.  Further --I despise the term replacement.  I am not replaceable and neither are you.  Our ex partners were emotionally unstable and could not always remember or feel the love we gave them.  This is situation which has its roots, likely, in childhood trauma -you didn't create this and you could not change it.  Only years of difficult therapy could have chance of rectifying this.

BPD is shame based.  They live with constant fear of shame.  It is not uncommon for someone with BPD to hear voices and these voices may be telling them they are ugly, they should die, they are worthless.  Mine did.

They live with daily soul crushing emotional pain.  This is an explanation of their behavior -not an excuse for abuse. 

I think part of what kept me stuck was feeling immense compassion for her emotional pain and not focusing on the behavior result of this pain in our relationship.  My love and compassion for her kept me from realizing she really didn't treat me very well and I am ultimately lucky to be away from her.

Wicker Man

[Longterm]

still using my surname on her social media account


My ex kept our wedding rings, and still has my name tattood on her.

I enjoy your posts wicker man, I'm sure I've told you that before. Your interpretation of your situation is filled with such love yet blatant reality.

[Wicker Man]

My ex kept our wedding rings, and still has my name tattooed on her.

Mine had my name tattooed on her hand 4 months after our break-up...  Mine still wears my mother's engagement ring... 

I feel truly sad for both of us.  The beautiful part of her was fertile ground for me to nurture an elaborate fantasy of an extraordinary life.  Honestly I didn't mind the raging, I could accept that as part of her being so sensitive -it was her using sex as a weapon when she would get upset.  I don't believe she thought she would cheat -she would spend time with other guys when she was upset and then get carried away.

She has an enormous fear of accountability but even she admitted when she drank she would literally forget she was in a relationship.  The impulsive behavior to mask the pain of shame creates a vicious and excruciating cycle which is incredibly damaging for all. 

After 18 months of thinking about my interpretation of my circumstance it seems to be  changing over time...  Of late I have been looking more at the pain she caused me instead of focusing so firmly on her psychic pain.  I had been completely forgiving of how she hurt me because she has suffered ten fold -however I find no joy, no victory, and no satisfaction in her pain.  It does nothing to soothe mine. 

My pain was self inflicted by wanting to believe I had found my perfect match -the fantasy I constructed was marvelous -it isn't her fault I misjudged the situation.  She was so utterly certain we were destined to be together I got swept up in that certainty.  Further... I am afraid I have never enjoyed speaking with anyone as much as with her.  She is likely the most charismatic person I have met.  She has a wonderful sense of humor and laughs like a child.  She was easy to construct a fantasy around.  The reality on the other hand...

In breaking no contact to get some closure, I am afraid it may have reset her healing clock.  It did me a lot of good -In that I was afraid I had vilified her in abstentia in all of my reading about BPD.  Was I still remembering accurately after months of rumination? 

Sadly... I was...  It did me good to have it demonstrated she has no ability to accept accountability and will hang on to a lie to the bitter end.  I came to the conclusion there is no point in speaking with someone who does not tell the truth. 

Ironically... part of the reason I pity her is losing us.  As I have said I am not replaceable.  I hope to god for her sake she can forget about who she pushed away.  I am a tough act to follow...

@Yoke I hope you are able to find some relief in the experience of others.  I am guessing I know how much you loved her and how much she loved you (in that moment).  It is an earth shattering visceral connection, it feels like one's soul has been touched... when this connection ends suddenly it is heartrending and confusing. 

“When someone shows you who they are believe them; the first time.”

                                                                                            ― Maya Angelou

[Yoke]

It sure resonate to me. I know in my mind that she is gone forever, wil not come back, and that it somehow is the best. But my heart is not there yet.. i miss her like hell, and only wish to see her one last time. See her eyes.. just touch her hand . She is still on my mind 24/7 and i know its wrong. But i just have to grief and feel this pain now until it hopefully goes away. Sometimes im so angry, sometimes so sad and just cries. She has ripped out my heart!..  And am strong ebough to give her things back on her stairs and then just go. Thanx for support here. Any advice to clear your mind not think of her? I really need that.

[Wicker Man]

Frankly, I would be afraid to see my ex.  With her being as delusional about our relationship as she is I have no idea what she might be capable of.  When we were 'doing well' I saw dysphoria, NSSI, psychosis (trees and rocks had given her a mission), oh! and the rage.  So... If that was the salad days I cannot fathom meeting her in our present circumstance.  

Keep in mind I felt the deepest love for this person -it is hard to admit, or maybe 'accept' is a better word, I do not wish to see her.  I was ready to give up home, hearth, and country for her.  

I worked in Beijing middle of last year and it was tough being 25 minutes from 'our' apartment -it truly hit home we will not see each other again.   I cannot protect her -my watch is done.  I can have pity for her and move on with my life.  I am the only person I can change.

only wish to see her one last time. See her eyes.. just touch her hand

I wonder at you wanting to see her just one more time.  Try to keep in mind you were in love with who you thought she was.  I don't think you were tricked or duped.  I believe she was genuine in her love for you -but it is the love of an emotionally unstable person.  If she has BPD it is a serious mental illness -you may not expect consistency.  

I saw no Machiavellian overarching plan in the actions of my ex.  She simply could not because her emotions ran roughshod over her constantly.  I fell in love with a girl who was in love with the idea of being in love.  My theory is perhaps they believe the next big love will be enough to ease their inner torment.  When someone else cannot heal their pain the demons come back and the relationship crumbles.  Limerence is a powerful drug like state and I have read people with BPD feel it even more strongly that we do.  I read from a person with BPD 'It [falling in love] feels like liquid gold coursing through my veins'

--I look at my situation as being in love with a fantasy.

As to not thinking about her...  This will take time.  Do you journal?  I found writing cathartic -it also helped to go back and review my 'progress' (insomuch as it was).  I found myself mildly depressed -nothing was fun anymore.  I forced myself to get out and walk every day -ride my bike -play with the dog.  Basically, do the things which were fun until I remembered how to have fun again.

It is really important to eat right, don't drink too much, get sleep.  If you put your body under stress it will be all that much harder to heal your emotional self.  

I started seeing a therapist directly after the break up.  That helped.  He actually treats several patients with BPD -so he gets it.  I read and read about BPD -however this was a double edged sword for me.  I believe on a subconscious level I was keeping the relationship alive -I believe I was hoping someone would tell me I had it wrong and it was a fairytale romance... Love at first sight, the one, destiny -basically I had somehow hoped everything she said in the beginning were true.  --it wasn't...

There are wonderful people here on BPD Family.  Keep writing.  This does get better in time.  

I found this article helpful.  She is insightful and even handed in my opinion.
  
www.nicolamethodforhighconflict.com/traits-of-bpd-how-to-move-on-after-your-breakup/

[Longterm]

Frankly, I would be afraid to see my ex.

I had this fear and still do. The 14mths away from her was my healthiest apart from the last 3mths. There was no contact initiated by me, it was her passing messages on through the kids. I used to visibly shake and get a tight chest. The last time there was contact a few weeks ago I could not keep my hands still, they were in a spasm. Even when she came back I was scared sh1tless of her. I was hoping the other shoe wouldn't drop but I knew it would. The affect she has on me is phenomenal. I was stuttering my words and after only after a few hours with her I wanted to be on my own. My thought processes were becoming distorted, my reality questioned. To say that I have love and sympathy for her is nonsensical and bizarre, crazy even.

 I cannot protect her -my watch is done

A painful realization.

Basically, do the things which were fun until I remembered how to have fun again.

I joined the local fishing club. She hated it when I did anything besides focus my attention on her. The feeling of freedom when we first split was awesome. She of course could not leave me be. YOKE, what did you enjoy before she came into your life? Did you find yourself giving up hobbies/friends? Try and reconnect with who you were before you met her.

[Yoke]

@longterm, @wickerman@maya. Thanx for the reading. It helps me even if its so hard to understand that she really is 'sick" i dont know if she has bpd but all of it you guys write about bp is so "her" so i am 99 percent sure of it. It hurts because i really loved her, and all about her but not the way she was treating me withthe anger, rage, accusing. It really made me depressed and hurt because all i did was trying to love her. But that made her leave.. ironic.. i am seeing a psychologic every week try to heal from the verbal abusing relationship.. i find it hard to do things i liked before because i realized that i was not happy the way i lived before.. alone. I miss the togetherness.. being with someone 24/7. My own family and someone to share your life with. And i miss our good times we had because they were amazing. That hurts the most... but i really try here. But at the same time i know it will never work until she get treatment. And how can she get that when nobody tells her she needs that because she i sick? If itold her she would probably kill me. .. the hardesr thing for me is that nonclosure.. its hard to dealwith and accept.. that is why i want to just see her one more time... so what do u think i shall do with her stuff, ? Give them back later when she might? Not hate me more? Or wait couple months to do it?  Please advice please.. regards

[Longterm]

I would put her stuff in a box and mail it as soon as possible, I would not want it round me.

[clvrnn]

Hi Yoke,

Looking at this from a different perspective does any of the below resonate with you:

This is so interesting. Spot on, too.

[Wicker Man]

...It helps me even if its so hard to understand that she really is 'sick"

When I discovered the notion of BPD it was really haunting to read my experience was so predictable. Please read this article @Yoke (if you have not already).  It is excellently written and informative.   Surviving a Break-up when Your Partner has Borderline Personality 

https://bpdfamily.com/content/surviving-break-when-your-partner-has-borderline-personality

Many of the things she said to me were exactly what other people with BPD have said.  'White Knight' 'The one' 'My first true love' 'Always and forever'  --I thought she was my dream come true (Ironically that was literally her name...) 

We were having about half of our conversations in Mandarin --the narrative and impulse for someone with BPD traits in love seems to transcends culture and language. 

Ok... Here is my point you @yoke and I had short relationships with our ex-girlfreinds  -mine lasted 18 months.  We didn't catch the full brunt of a longterm relationship.  911 calls, broken walls, smashed plates, screaming fights, police, false DV charges, co-parenting --however... but just as the things she said to me were predictable I have to believe if we have continued our relationship all of this mayhem would have been in store.

@longterm I have the 'luxury' of pity and love for her because my learning has been largely vicarious.  We were still in the 'honey moon' of our relationship when it ended.  I was only 'split black' briefly on a few occasions.  To be honest when I was with her I felt completely at ease, I was sleeping better and longer than I had in years and years.  Things were really still feeling quite perfect with only a few fissures in the facade.

I was a parentified child, so growing up I learned to read people's emotions and soothe them when they are upset.  This is a mixed blessing it allowed me to be untouched by the vitriol of her rage and to calm her quickly -but it made me not see the dysfunction as early as I should have.  I always was able to make an excuse for her.  E.g. She is young, she has bad relationship habits, a loving relationship is what she needs to become grounded, maybe she really didn't sleep with him... 

...all i did was trying to love her. But that made her leave.. ironic..

I am going to be hard on you here @Yoke -you have an error in causality.  You loving her had nothing to do with her leaving.  It is important you accept this or you will stay stuck.  If she does in fact suffer from BPD and is untreated and unaware there is likely nothing you could have done to foster a healthy longterm relationship.  Nothing.

I was not happy the way I lived before.. alone. I miss the togetherness.. ...someone to share your life with...

Being able to be alone and comfortable in your own skin is a very valuable skill.  In working through understanding this relationship, on your own and with a therapist (good for you!) you will come out the other side of this experience stronger, wiser and better prepared for a healthy, loving and sustainable relationship.  This is something which would not have been possible with your ex girlfriend. 

I understand missing the connection and the togetherness. 

The 'super power' of someone with BPD is hyper-sensitivity -they can read people's emotions on a subconscious level and this makes it incredibly easy to create the feeling of a close bond.  I felt completely loved and understood by my ex.  However, this same hyper-sensitivity will ultimately carry the relationship through the gates of hell.  Through slights real or imagined this sensitivity, which was once keeping you so close, will create rage in them and ultimately splitting. 

...it will never work until she get treatment. And how can she get that when nobody tells her she needs that because she i sick? If itold her she would probably kill me...

BPD is ego-syntonic.   

Ego-syntonic :refers to the behaviors, values, and feelings that are in harmony with or acceptable to the needs and goals of the ego, or consistent with one's ideal self-image.

Freud wrote about 'ich' (german for I) it was translated as Ego -so in this case ego means self.

So in other words their defense mechanisms are considered 'normal and healthy' to them.  In order to maintain this worldview they are capable of fantastic mental gymnastics to avoid considering and accepting responsibility for their litany of broken relationships in their past -It will always be someone else's fault.  They often see themselves victims in a cruel and untrustworthy world.  Between cognitive distortion, selective memory, dichotomous thinking, and dissociation they have a many layered defense against introspection.

.. the hardest thing for me is that nonclosure...

As had as this is to accept she cannot give you closure.  She may not be able to explain how and or why your relationship failed.  I broke No Contact with mine and even when there was literally nothing to lose she could not discuss any of the problems we had.  She stood by her lies and even made light of them.

...what do u think i shall do with her stuff? ...hate me more?

I completely agree with @Longterm.  If you have an address mail the stuff back.  If there is a neutral party you could drop her things off.  Get her things out of your life.  If you have photos of the two of you archive them. 

Stop being concerned about how she feels about you and do not add fuel to a fire you don't want burning.  You do not want her to actively hate you -which could cause her to lash out.  I have read over and over about people whose ex partners engaged in a smear campaign.  You don't need this.

[Yoke]

Thanx @wingerman. I really appreciate your writings and experience. I find it hard to understand all of it because of  that she was the one pushing our relationship further. She was the one missing me most, wanted to be closer than ever. And all that. She was the most loving and caring woman i ever met. And as someone read about sleeping. Sleeping with her made me comfortable, and i slept better, felt alive with her. All the time she was near me. I know bpd can switch from white to black in a moment.. but we had sex the night before she broke up with me, and that i dont understand.. .. she was the one initiated to have it.  Even if she had her rageperiods.. i still loved her and think i will always love her in a way. Because she gave me so much love i never experienced.. that is a good memory..  It sucks that i will never be with her again as her partner, but what hurts the most is that we cant even be friends.. that i wished for. Because i miss her personality. Not just the relationship. Understand? Here in my Country you cant mail a box to someones hone. We dont have that here. I dont want to make her hate me more than she might do? I dont know. She probably has a new man/woman in her bed and has started a new relationship now so maybe she does not care anymore if i leave them there ?  Can i ask something? I think a lot if its my fault the relationship ended? Her past has been so much pain, and lots of the textmessages she sent to me - she is describing so much pain she has been through and that she just wanted me to love her and never lie and cheat on her. That she has never felt like this before and that she never would leave me. And i trusted her on that she was telling me the truth? I feels devastated that i really trusted her words and that I WAS THE ONE failed to love her the right way... i know u think i am stuck right now.. and yes i am. .. i havent come further yet. All of me misses her like hell.. i hate it. I hate to feel like this and i hate that i feel for her still, that i defend her when my friends talk bad of her.. when i instead should agree with them. Because they see how damaged i am now. Totaĺly broken dpwn to pieces thanx to her. Thanks to that i finally gave someone all of me, all of my love.. just in vain..

[Scarlet Phoenix]

i know u think i am stuck right now.. and yes i am. .. i havent come further yet

Don't worry about that. We all know that everyone has their own path and must follow it in their own time. It's all really fresh for you and overwhelming. We understand that.

[Longterm]

Stop being concerned about how she feels about you and do not add fuel to a fire you don't want burning.  You do not want her to actively hate you -which could cause her to lash out.  I have read over and over about people whose ex partners engaged in a smear campaign.  You don't need this

YOKE, this.
Every time you initiate contact or she does and you respond, you are simply adding logs. The way wicker man described it is spot on. When I chose to do this it was extremely painful for me but it was necessary. You need to defend yourself at all costs and the best way to do this is no contact. My ex would contact me being very polite but would ask unreasonable things of me. It would put me in a no win situation because if I bent over I was being abused and if I said no then there was abuse in the form of hostilities. No contact will allow you to compose yourself and become centred.

Understand? 

We all understand Yoke. This is going to be a very tough period for you but know you are not alone, we all feel your pain, we have all lived it or are living it. Non of it makes any sense and the cognitive dissonance is unbearable. That is what you are experiencing now. The what ifs, the buts? All perfectly normal things got you to be experiencing right now.

Can i ask something? I think a lot if its my fault the relationship ended? 

This could not be further than the truth. We all mess up in relationships, we are human. The relationship was always doomed to failure. You could have been god and the relationship would still have broken down, you will come to see this in time.

she was telling me the truth?

They lie Yoke, and make it impossible for you to believe anything they say. It is highly likely though that she IS in a lot of pain. This pain would have been there before you 2 met. This is NOT your fault, the said reality is it's not hers either.
Never believe their words, only actions, that's BPD 101.

Take time away from her, refocus and educate yourself on what your dealing with.

We are here for you.

[Yoke]

@wingman. So every word she said was not true? She never loved me or was telling me the truth about what she felt for me? Okay. I understand. But people here says that in the moment they mean everything? I am confused here now... what is true here? Everyone has their own stories .

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Everyone has their own story, that's true. And BPD is a spectrum disorder from a little affected to highly affected.

If we look at the research from reputable sources, they generally say that what a pwBPD say in the moment about love, they feel. Right then and there it's true and real.

The problem is that they swing fast between love and hate. They don't do that on purpose.

[MeandThee29]

I recommend Dr. Fjelstad's "Stop the Caretaking" newsletter. She seems to focus on the lower-functioning types, so keep that in mind. It's a spectrum.

These Q&A's from the May newsletter got me:

Why doesn't their behavior make sense?

They will scream at you to convince you to love them, or blame you and then expect you to understand their feelings, or push you away only to beg you to come back. These are all due to the poor brain connections between their feelings, thinking and ultimate behavior. They confabulate reasons for why they act this way--often blaming you--but it's their disordered brain functioning and confused reasoning that are the real reasons.

Why do I end up feeling depressed and anxious after a fight, while the BP/NP seems perfectly fine?

You feel terrible after a BP/NP's chaotic bout of anger, emotional outrage, and hostility because you think there's a relationship reason for your loved one's behavior. In addition, you continue to think about the conflict and wonder what you did to cause the BP/NP to be so upset. Whereas, the BP/NP actually feels better after these events because they have just released all their negative energy and given it to you. They aren't even thinking about it anymore. So, when you want to talk through the problem and figure out how to fix it, they will tell you it's all in the past, and you should just forget about it.

What can I do to help the NP or BP change?

You really can't do very much. You can't change how their brains work. You can't use reason to convince them to be less angry. You can't change how they think. You CAN stop reinforcing their negative behaviors by not fighting with them when their emotional. You CAN quit giving into their tantrums. You CAN stop trying to give them advice which they perceive as criticism. You CAN leave if the relationship becomes abusive and detrimental to your health.

[Wicker Man]

@wingman. So every word she said was not true? She never loved me or was telling me the truth about what she felt for me?

I do not believe this is true.  I believe they do love deeply and I would bet she loved (you in her way) -until something changed in her mind and she had to flee.  

I will quote myself from earlier in the thread "I knew from the beginning she loved me with the same absolute resolve and passion with which she hated me when upset."  --this is all real to them in the moment.  They can go from over the moon happy to crushing sadness in the blink of an eye -and for them both are real and both make sense.

Once again... -The thing which changed or ex-girlfriend's mind might be something trivial -it might be something imagined, it could have been a memory for her past.  There is no way to know.  

However this is the sort of issue, if asked, I would expect her to lie about (if she is like mine).  Because leaving you with no warning is a 'bad' thing to do I would expect her to not tell the truth for her motivation, she would likely make something up.

I experienced lies in my relationship when she had done something impulsive she was ashamed of E.g. ghosting, cheating, and so forth.

What makes these relationships so hard to understand is they love deeply (on a super human level), then split and hate with just as much passion (on a super human level).  Stop trying to apply neuro-typical logic to her motivation -it is a fools errand.

Wicker Man... but I like Wingman better... Keep using it  

[Wicker Man]

You can't use reason to convince them to be less angry. You can't change how they think.

@MeandThee29 excellent post. 

The first time my ex raged at me she was so angry she said "I am furious' and I said 'Ok'...  She screamed 'What? it is ok with you I am angry?'.  I said 'Sure...  What would have happened if I told you to not be angry?   Besides... I love you when you are happy, sad or angry -they are all you.'

She stopped a moment and said 'Damn it I am not angry anymore'  I replied 'Don't worry just give it a moment, I am very annoying and you will be angry again before you know it... 

It was a sweet moment, but I missed the important part of the experience which was a hair-trigger anger and flipping back to happy so fast, instead of a victory, should have been a warning for me.  'Something is rotten in the state of Denmark... or Beijing...

[Yoke]

Thanx for understanding and the patience @scarlet phoenix

[Yoke]

Sorry for say the wrong name @Wicker man./ Wingman.

[Leonis]

From my experience, I have always had thoughts that maybe it was all my fault.

Yeah, I did some not-so-great stuff as we were breaking up, etc. However, those were reactions to the things that she said and done. And, it was not like she hadn't been pushing my buttons for who knows what reason.

I recall the smear campaigns after our child was born. She was dead set on the rape victim narrative to the hospital staff, the courtroom, and even child's pedestrian.

These days, I don't hear much from her due to our court order. We are to communicate via phone, email, and stay at least 20 feet away from each other. It was some weird "mutual restraining order" thing.

Of course, I figured her family, especially her mother, had a hand in the arrangements. I still note the little things my ex does to try to get under skin. This may be because she is supposedly living with them right now.

One of such example is seeing the message of "Jerry + Mom love (our kid's name)" on her parents' driveway. That triggered my memories of the smear campaigns, etc. immediately. I was angry at the thought that she moved on without much effort.

Another one is her mom enforcing her interpretation of "curbside" pickup of my son. Then, I realized that it was because my ex has been behind the doors every time I picked up or dropped him off. I guess it's just to cover their bases.

Anyways, getting off topic.

Part of me fear that she will be back for something someday. Chances are, I may be logically ready, but I won't be emotionally ready to fend her off.

[Longterm]

Part of me fear that she will be back for something someday. Chances are, I may be logically ready, but I won't be emotionally ready to fend her off.

Always keep that in the back of your mind. You are tied to her and she will think nothing of exploiting that. She will expect to carry on just as she left off. Sure, she might say "sorry" but there will be no real remorse. She will say exactly what you want to hear and split you without a seconds thought. I witnessed this first hand and still find it absolutely shocking a month on. I honestly believed there was nothing more she could do to me, I was wrong. Educate yourself on the tactics they use and do not fall for it. If she does come back try to fight with your logical mind.

The cognitive dissonance is unbelievable at times. To yearn for somebody who has treated us so poorly highlights the damage done to us. I am petrified of my ex coming back again and I feel the same as you, I feel powerless to defend myself, you/me must fight this at all costs, especially when there are youngsters in the mix.

[Leonis]

you/me must fight this at all costs, especially when there are youngsters in the mix.

Luckily, she'd have to alter the part of our court order in order to see me face-to-face legally.

Although, I'm not sure if they would actually stop her if she really wanted to. The fact that she lives with her parents currently may be a good deterrence for her.

[MeandThee29]

Part of me fear that she will be back for something someday. Chances are, I may be logically ready, but I won't be emotionally ready to fend her off.

Always keep that in the back of your mind. You are tied to her and she will think nothing of exploiting that. She will expect to carry on just as she left off. Sure, she might say "sorry" but there will be no real remorse. She will say exactly what you want to hear and split you without a seconds thought. I witnessed this first hand and still find it absolutely shocking a month on. I honestly believed there was nothing more she could do to me, I was wrong. Educate yourself on the tactics they use and do not fall for it. If she does come back try to fight with your logical mind.

The cognitive dissonance is unbelievable at times. To yearn for somebody who has treated us so poorly highlights the damage done to us. I am petrified of my ex coming back again and I feel the same as you, I feel powerless to defend myself, you/me must fight this at all costs, especially when there are youngsters in the mix.

Yes, I know I'm not strong enough. I gave in when he came back to get his stuff, and then of course there was an ugly discard and then an ultimatum that I walked away from. Then more attempts and ultimatums. But I got stronger and wiser and set a healthy boundary that was entirely reasonable under the circumstances. He kept trying, and he finally decided to divorce. I had been on the fence, but that cinched it.

I'm getting better, but am currently working through why this happened. It's a little horrifying.

[Starfire]

For me, the push ended when I went no contact 16 months ago.  He's still trying to pull.  Most recently he attempted a hard press - texts, social media messages, phone calls from numbers I had not yet blocked.

In one of those texts he asked if I would just "finally be honest" and tell him whether or not I wanted to talk to him so that he'd know it was okay to stop.  Hmm.  Well, the very last thing I said to him was "you'll never speak with me again goodbye" and I have not wavered from that for 16 months so, for any well-adjusted adult that should have been his answer. I didn't respond of course.  No contact is my mantra.

[RomanticFool]

Thank you Mindfried for your post on Karmic relationships. I ticked every box!

[Harri]

This thread reached the post limit and has been locked.  Please feel free to start a new thread.  Thank you