Enemy at the gate

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Last night was exceptionally hard, but also liberating in a way. After a long day spent with ubpdh and our s11, on our drive home I was contemplating as to why we couldn’t close the deal on the house this time. Upon me doing the math (value of the home times 0.05 which is 5% commission fee from the realtors equals the amount the seller would get). My agents (2 of them) have been bringing the offers and advising me that the seller was stubborn and adamant about the price. In our market, luxury realestate sales are rare and hard to come across. On a 3 months period there have been only handful sales completed. Which brought me to realize that the offer was fair and that it was realtor’s Greed on not reducing their commissions that stopped the deal. It’s a very common practice, when the seller is at their max and the buyer exhausted their resources the realtors cut down their commissions, especially given that they would be getting paid astronomical commissions.
Ubpdh previously commented on how him and I are seeing things differently and I’m pushing him into the sale. So yesterday when I wrote out the email to one of the agents illustrating the math and how they can close the house we want by reducing their commissions ( they have been stalling and advising me to wait for the seller to come down, which is ridiculous, what if they never will?.). Once I emailed him I also showed my math to ubpdh explaining that since we both love the home, but he doesn’t want to overpay this is the option I see that can work. He told me, not asked me “just listen to the agents and let them do their job”. In over a month since we sold our home they have not been really active or made me believe that they have my best interests at heart. Later that evening we went to see our friends. While we were there, I showed my email, to which I cced our realestate lawyer to our friend who is in the realestate investment. She agreed that the email was sound and the proposal was reasonable. As the evening progressed, unpdh suddenly yelled “how dare you to write this behind my back?”. The agent I wrote to composed a reply, to which he cced ubpdh and his other colleague. In that email he used heavy FOG, how they were accommodating, how they were able to negotiate the price on other property and how disappointed they were to get this email. Nothing to reflect that they only got better deals on worst properties and the fact that the properties I valued they weren’t able to get pricing reflecting the market. They also try to push me into more expensive property that we don’t even like and expressed numerous lot. Bottom line they consider my request to reduce commissions “unfair” and propose we wait more. Ubpdh started verbally attacking me once he read the email, saying that he is fed up with my behaviour, that I only look out for my interests and I’m insecure. That I have ruined the relationships, and that I can’t draw a wedge between anyone. He also said that he doesn’t give a bleep and doesn’t want to hear any more about the house. People at the table, who read my email prior that evening and complimented me on trying to save our family money by negotiating started reprimanding him for saying those things. They have told him that by not acting as a united front he is hurting our chances at buying. I started crying and telling him every thing I kept at bay. How he forced me into the sale all the while knowing that I was uncomfortable, how he isn’t doing anything to buy the house anymore, how he is attacking me for protecting our family’s interests. He sulked like a 7 yo kid, shut down and demanded we leave, after our friends tried to make him see what he is doing to his family, what kind of stress he had put us through and that I was acting in the interest of buying us a home. He just said “you showed me your true face and colour, you disobeyed me when I told you not to, now you clean up the mess”. The mess he had gotten us into. On our drive home I continued spilling my diluted feelings of hurt, anger and disappointment. He was saying just one like “f off, you make me feel bad about myself constantly”. When we came home, I told ubpdh I was going to see our lawyer in the upcoming days and see if he can do anything to get us out of the contract or replace the agents. His reply was “leave me out of it”. He slept on the couch last night.  What I see if I try to analyze his behaviour, is that it’s more important for him how he comes across on the outside then be good and effective to his family. He will relentlessly protect strangers he will never cross his paths with, but try to bury me at the slightest sign of disobedience. I’m so hurt, confused and angry, but I’m also glad it’s out there, I can no longer comply with these fruitless demands. I am tired of not being able to take a breath, daily, because I’m riding my panic attacks sober, while trying to convince myself I’m not crazy. I’m not crazy. I’m living with a person who is gaslighting me daily. I have a right to feel, want and express my desire, especially it was promised.

[snowglobe]

Last night was exceptionally hard, but also liberating in a way. After a long day spent with ubpdh and our s11, on our drive home I was contemplating as to why we couldn’t close the deal on the house this time. Upon me doing the math (value of the home times 0.05 which is 5% commission fee from the realtors equals the amount the seller would get). My agents (2 of them) have been bringing the offers and advising me that the seller was stubborn and adamant about the price. In our market, luxury realestate sales are rare and hard to come across. On a 3 months period there have been only handful sales completed. Which brought me to realize that the offer was fair and that it was realtor’s Greed on not reducing their commissions that stopped the deal. It’s a very common practice, when the seller is at their max and the buyer exhausted their resources the realtors cut down their commissions, especially given that they would be getting paid astronomical commissions.
Ubpdh previously commented on how him and I are seeing things differently and I’m pushing him into the sale. So yesterday when I wrote out the email to one of the agents illustrating the math and how they can close the house we want by reducing their commissions ( they have been stalling and advising me to wait for the seller to come down, which is ridiculous, what if they never will?.). Once I emailed him I also showed my math to ubpdh explaining that since we both love the home, but he doesn’t want to overpay this is the option I see that can work. He told me, not asked me “just listen to the agents and let them do their job”. In over a month since we sold our home they have not been really active or made me believe that they have my best interests at heart. Later that evening we went to see our friends. While we were there, I showed my email, to which I cced our realestate lawyer to our friend who is in the realestate investment. She agreed that the email was sound and the proposal was reasonable. As the evening progressed, unpdh suddenly yelled “how dare you to write this behind my back?”. The agent I wrote to composed a reply, to which he cced ubpdh and his other colleague. In that email he used heavy FOG, how they were accommodating, how they were able to negotiate the price on other property and how disappointed they were to get this email. Nothing to reflect that they only got better deals on worst properties and the fact that the properties I valued they weren’t able to get pricing reflecting the market. They also try to push me into more expensive property that we don’t even like and expressed numerous lot. Bottom line they consider my request to reduce commissions “unfair” and propose we wait more. Ubpdh started verbally attacking me once he read the email, saying that he is fed up with my behaviour, that I only look out for my interests and I’m insecure. That I have ruined the relationships, and that I can’t draw a wedge between anyone. He also said that he doesn’t give a bleep and doesn’t want to hear any more about the house. People at the table, who read my email prior that evening and complimented me on trying to save our family money by negotiating started reprimanding him for saying those things. They have told him that by not acting as a united front he is hurting our chances at buying. I started crying and telling him every thing I kept at bay. How he forced me into the sale all the while knowing that I was uncomfortable, how he isn’t doing anything to buy the house anymore, how he is attacking me for protecting our family’s interests. He sulked like a 7 yo kid, shut down and demanded we leave, after our friends tried to make him see what he is doing to his family, what kind of stress he had put us through and that I was acting in the interest of buying us a home. He just said “you showed me your true face and colour, you disobeyed me when I told you not to, now you clean up the mess”. The mess he had gotten us into. On our drive home I continued spilling my diluted feelings of hurt, anger and disappointment. He was saying just one like “f off, you make me feel bad about myself constantly”. When we came home, I told ubpdh I was going to see our lawyer in the upcoming days and see if he can do anything to get us out of the contract or replace the agents. His reply was “leave me out of it”. He slept on the couch last night.  What I see if I try to analyze his behaviour, is that it’s more important for him how he comes across on the outside then be good and effective to his family. He will relentlessly protect strangers he will never cross his paths with, but try to bury me at the slightest sign of disobedience. I’m so hurt, confused and angry, but I’m also glad it’s out there, I can no longer comply with these fruitless demands. I am tired of not being able to take a breath, daily, because I’m riding my panic attacks sober, while trying to convince myself I’m not crazy. I’m not crazy. I’m living with a person who is gaslighting me daily. I have a right to feel, want and express my desire, especially it was promised.

[G1B8oN]

Just know you have my sympathy.

One part of my relationship that I find unfulfilling is how my partner will always take the side of others over me and that I always have to take her side.

She even broke up with me once because I agreed with her grandma that there were more carbs in a packet of noodles than a packet of cous cous (it was clearly written on the side of the packs!) and by doing so I had "betrayed" her.

They are always very concerned about how they appear to the world and mine certainly struggles to see me as an autonomous individual who is separate to her and is allowed different opinions and perspectives.

[Perdita]

One part of my relationship that I find unfulfilling is how my partner will always take the side of others over me and that I always have to take her side.

I see this over and over again on the board.   It's crazy making to deal with especially before we know they have bpd and even after it is so very hurtful. I see it as part of being devalued by them. A way to train us to stay in line.  Even in the most cut and dry situations mine will still side with others. Even when he agrees with me in private he will let me have it in public.

[Notwendy]

This looks like classic triangulation to me. In the Karpman triangle, the roles change. You feel like victim to your H. Then, it shifts to where you feel like both you and your H are victim to a "greedy" realtor. When you attempt to rally your H to your point of view, he feels aligned with the realtor and you feel like victim to them both. However this plays out, you feel like a victim. However, when you attempt to gain the collaboration of your H, he feels like the victim and then lashes out at you.

The dynamics are dysfunctional and both you and your H are acting out in them for different reasons. I do understand your position, your fear of not having the home you want, but acting on fears can still produce dysfunctional dynamics.

I observed my parents in dysfunctional patterns for decades. I played a part in it too. It was only when I decided to work on my part in dysfunction that I could change the patterns for myself in relationships. I didn't change other people. It took people turning the mirror on me- it wasn't pleasant and it didn't feel good. I also didn't feel supported when they didn't take my side, but later understood that their support was more valuable than if they did.

This is the kind of support I hope to offer others. From what it looks like here, neither you or your H is willing to bend on your wants here. You don't just want a decent home. You want the top of the line. If you are just under bid for the top of the line, then you could make a reasonable bid on a less luxurious home, but you don't want to do this. This is your choice, not the realtor's fault.

Who is pushing who? Your H coerced you to sell the home and you feel manipulated. Who is coercing who to buy a home outside your price range? Your H has his issues for sure, but if he's also being pushed to spend beyond his means, he could feel resentful at the pressure.

Maybe the realtor is greedy and maybe the realtor really needs the money for their own commitments. We don't know the realtor's situation and bringing them into the issue creates a drama triangle and adds to the drama. The main issues are between you and your H. By focusing on a house above your price range, you are in gridlock. There are probably other choices and solutions to consider.

[snowglobe]

Hi Wendy,
I just want to clarify one nuance- which is I don’t want the most expensive and extravagant home. I will be one million percent fine with a comparable to what we just sold. It’s my ubpdh is adamant about bigger, better luxury or none at all. That is why I am pushing for the only house he loved, not because of my ego. I have none. What I won’t do, is downsize so he can blow the remaining proceeds on another fruitless business venture, blow or crazy investments. I have absolutely no desire to continue the tribulation, so I’m wondering what do you suggest in the light of, now you know... I hoped he would invest some of his assets from crypto currency he holds into the house. Which may or may not happen. If it does, I’ll be overjoyed, as at least those assets will be under mutual name. If he doesn’t, but still buys a home I will be content. My biggest conflict is that he isn’t interested in the property that doesn’t look like a White House. He refuses to view them or entertain the idea. With the purchase of the matrimonial home I can’t just take the proceeds and go out and buy myself and kids a home. I need his cooperation and signature   

[Notwendy]

I don't really know an answer, or at least one that you would be on board with. Your welfare is basically in the hands of what appears to be an unreasonable person. You can't reason with that. He also has a lot of control and doesn't appear to be willing to give it up. He can use this to gain sexual favors and attention from you.

You do have some clout on the half of the sale, but you need him to agree on your half, and he would need you to agree on his. This is the gridlock. Neither of you want to ( or probably should on your part) to each other's wishes. Yours seem to be reasonable. I agree that with money in his hands, he is likely to blow it on his impulsive wishes. But if this is what he wants - he isn't likely to agree to your wishes.

I don't really see where at any time your H has put your wishes or needs as a priority. It may not be in his nature. What I see you doing is to try to coerce him into doing this, but this means you are coercing him to do what he doesn't want to do. This isn't a recipe for happiness.

Several posters here have suggested you taking some control of your own financial welfare by detaching financially from this man and not buying a home with him, but you don't want to do that. It would mean probable financial hardship. However it looks like some kind of hardship either way- emotional if you stay connected, financial if you don't.

[Enabler]

Hey snowglobe,

For someone in sales to come back with a reply as you describe is a bit odd to say the least. I have had some interesting if not downright dismissive responses from realty agents before when I've tried to low-ball them, but since you say this is common practice it's odd they should take such an aggressive response. 5% of big money just to show someone what the master suite looks like is punchy to say the least. I work in finance and typically the question brokers ask themselves is HOW MUCH of the commission should I sacrifice to win the trade not should I shouldn't I sacrifice any. Some comm is better than no comm. I would be tempted to roll with the relationship between the agent and yourselves and take control of it. You seem to know what you're doing. I might be tempted to respond to the agent illustrating that you are coming from a position of empowered knowledge of common practice and you're a little perplexed at the curt response to a business negotiation. Alkl parties have a vested interest in getting this over the line. Agents make money on volume and being the go-to agent in the area... people go-to agents that transact properties and get the deal done. THEY NEED YOU.

Agents love to make out that their business is personal and emotional and about relationships when it's about 2 groups of people and 1 pile of bricks... it's a transaction not marriage counselling. My guess is that your H buys into the idea of others 'working for him' and have his interests at heart. He see's them as experts, 'professionals' and the 5% is the market standard for that professional treatment. He may have put them on a pedistool somewhat.  

Enabler

[Notwendy]

Even if the realtor is a total jerk, I would resist looking at them as the problem. When two people who are in conflict between themselves join together "against" a common "enemy" it provides a form of bonding when they are both looking elsewhere instead of at the issues between them. However, it's classic drama triangle and at best provides a temporary lull in the conflict, not a solution.

[Enabler]

Isn't Snowglobe H aligned with the Agent in this case?

Isn't pushing through the FOG towards the objective being coach?

[babyducks]

Isn't Snowglobe H aligned with the Agent in this case?

Isn't pushing through the FOG towards the objective being coach?

Enabler,

There are multiple triangles in the story snow globe presents.  Multiple triangles going in multiple directions.

I would say getting off the biggest triangle effectively resolves the smaller triangles.

The biggest triangle here is not the email with the realtor.

[Notwendy]

It's hard to know what is FOG, what is coaching, and what is manipulation. It looks like gridlock here.

Snowglobe wants to invest the proceeds from the house sale in addition to Bitcoin money so that the money is visible and H can't access it and blow it all. But she feels she has to go along with the choice of house H wants in order to get what she wants.

"I  want this but my choice is controlled by my H". If it were up to me, I could choose another house but I can't.

In Karpan triangle words: I am the victim of H's choices, he is the reason I don't get what I want.

I don't know what H wants. Does he even want to buy a house at all? Does he want to just take the money and spend it on what he wants? But as it stands now, he only wants house X. He's made a bid on house X and the seller won't sell. He could choose another house but he won't. Now  bring "realtor" into the mix and it's " I can't have house X because the greedy realtor won't reduce the commission".

In Karpan words, he is now a victim of greedy realtor, and so is snowglobe.

Snowglobe then rallies Hubby "against" realtor. This may actually be a reasonable idea, to get the realtor to back down on the commission, and would be a possibility assuming H wants to buy a house with snowglobe, but what if he doesn't? Or what if he just feels he is being nagged? Rather than be honest with snowglobe, he has a rescuer- align with the realtor against snowglobe. In Karpam terms- H feels like victim to persecutor snowglobe. The next move is to align with realtor to counteract snowglobe.

How to get off the triangle?

Realtor and seller won't budge? Look for a different house
H doesn't want a house? Come clean with snowglobe
Snowglobe wants a house but H doesn't? I don't know the solution to this one.

[formflier]

5% is already a "low" commission.  I know many that start out higher than that.

The real focus is on the Karpman analysis (primarily) and then secondarily that the home purchase is about so many other things other than buying a home. 

Getting off the drama triangle should help alleviate the secondary issue somewhat.

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

The primary objective of the house purchase as I see it is to get hidden assets into the light to be visible, and therefore receivable in a ‘potential’ divorce.

Since H is the only person that can release the hidden assets (unless there is a formal legal route), and H likes Triangulation, is there a way that she could use her knowledge of the Karpman Triangle to her advantage? As you say, pitching her H against realtor might not be such a bad thing if it gets her what she wants (which is very reasonable to want).

[babyducks]

The primary objective of the house purchase as I see it is to get hidden assets into the light to be visible, and therefore receivable in a ‘potential’ divorce.

Good Point Enabler.

in other threads that have been locked snowglobe has said that if her husband begins divorce proceedings

I won’t try and stop him

snowglobe has also said this:

I want to save my family, buy a house and live happily after. At least until my kids are fully grown. If he does not buy the house, then it’s gonna he a different story.

If he doesn’t buy the home, the very little trust I had left in him will vanish and I no longer CHOOSE to continue and be married to him.

Do I want to divorce him- no. Am I prepared to fight for my interest if he tries to screw me over- yes.

reading that it seems like to me, snowglobe's primary goal of buying the house is to stabilize the family.   it also seems to me that (like NotWendy suggested) the primary way to stabilize the family is take the dysfunction out of the relationship.  the email that went out to the realtor wasn't discussed between husband and wife before it was sent.    doesn't appear that Husband was copied on the email.    and only reacted when the realtor replied to all.    that's adding dysfunction and drama to an already fraught situation.

should snowglobe use her knowledge of the Karpman Triangle to her advantage?    Depends.    I would not suggest using the Karpman Triangle to manipulate the realtor and her husband.    I would suggest using an understanding of the Triangles to avoid them.   

my two cents
'ducks

[formflier]

reading that it seems like to me, snowglobe's primary goal of buying the house is to stabilize the family.   

it also seems to me that (like NotWendy suggested) the primary way to stabilize the family is take the dysfunction out of the relationship. 
 

I don't see how buying a home "stabilizes the family". 

Perhaps I'm missing something.

Homes have been bought and sold before and the family seems to be increasingly unstable.  Is anyone aware of causation between these two?  How about correlation?

It would appear that a home purchase is something that both parties in the marriage really "want" but for very different reasons (that likely are not disclosed or actively hidden from the other partner in the marriage)

So..with that in mind..I would suggest that a home purchase/owning a home together "increases instability" because it adds "valuable" things to argue about between the two parties in the marriage.

I do want to agree with other posters that less karpman drama is desirable/helpful.

Best,

FF

[snowglobe]

The primary objective of the house purchase as I see it is to get hidden assets into the light to be visible, and therefore receivable in a ‘potential’ divorce.

Since H is the only person that can release the hidden assets (unless there is a formal legal route), and H likes Triangulation, is there a way that she could use her knowledge of the Karpman Triangle to her advantage? As you say, pitching her H against realtor might not be such a bad thing if it gets her what she wants (which is very reasonable to want).

Thank you enabler! I feel like you really understand my situation. I wrote to realtor not consciously manipulative, but as a desperate act of getting the deal done. It looks like it’s finally sinking in to them (realtors) as to whom they are working for. He constantly repeats “I never loose, I always win” ( high in npd). By slashing their commissions and making them work harder I hope he will be enticed to purchase and close the deal, as he would defiantly be winning. One more thing, I don’t consciously “plan” to divorce him. It’s more of if he backs me into the corner type of thing and I have to protect the children and myself. Being with him, is like playing basketball with my eyes blindfolded. He makes the shots and the is a significant power imbalance. By purchasing this home, I hope to restore some of it. There is only one thing my ubpdh loves sincerely, his “precious assets”- money. By holding more of it in the open space where it’s fair game, is an inhibitor to his poor behaviour.

[snowglobe]

Good Point Enabler.

in other threads that have been locked snowglobe has said that if her husband begins divorce proceedings
snowglobe has also said this:
reading that it seems like to me, snowglobe's primary goal of buying the house is to stabilize the family.   it also seems to me that (like NotWendy suggested) the primary way to stabilize the family is take the dysfunction out of the relationship.  the email that went out to the realtor wasn't discussed between husband and wife before it was sent.    doesn't appear that Husband was copied on the email.    and only reacted when the realtor replied to all.    that's adding dysfunction and drama to an already fraught situation.

should snowglobe use her knowledge of the Karpman Triangle to her advantage?    Depends.    I would not suggest using the Karpman Triangle to manipulate the realtor and her husband.    I would suggest using an understanding of the Triangles to avoid them.   

my two cents
'ducks

Hi Ducks,
As you correctly pointed out I am no longer feeling helpless as I usually would have. I feel intense anger, infuriation even, but not helplessness. You are absolutely correct about my motivations as well- knowing what I know about him, if he buys the house and invests more, he will be less enthusiastic to throw “let’s divorce, we are different people” out there. Why?. His resources are in the line. I’m glad I had that email sent, yesterday I received 3 phone calls from those realtors explaining to me how they are working to slash the price and adjust commissions. My cards are on the table, I’m all in. They now know who my unpdh and feel that if they don’t produce the results soon, he will back out. Next question - how do you manipulate narcissist to do what they promised to do?

[snowglobe]

I don't see how buying a home "stabilizes the family". 

Perhaps I'm missing something.

Homes have been bought and sold before and the family seems to be increasingly unstable.  Is anyone aware of causation between these two?  How about correlation?

It would appear that a home purchase is something that both parties in the marriage really "want" but for very different reasons (that likely are not disclosed or actively hidden from the other partner in the marriage)

So..with that in mind..I would suggest that a home purchase/owning a home together "increases instability" because it adds "valuable" things to argue about between the two parties in the marriage.

I do want to agree with other posters that less karpman drama is desirable/helpful.

Best,

FF

Ff,
I’m very familiar with the stats, I understand the concept of variable and deviation. In my opinion, as I expressed earlier my ubpdh’s Achilles’s heel is his financial resources that he loves above and keypad anyone else. A loss of them would propel him into stratosphere. If we buy a new home and he invests into it, he won’t want to share his resources. Which calms him down.

[formflier]

Ff,
I’m very familiar with the stats, I understand the concept of variable and deviation. In my opinion, as I expressed earlier my ubpdh’s Achilles’s heel is his financial resources that he loves above and keypad anyone else. A loss of them would propel him into stratosphere. If we buy a new home and he invests into it, he won’t want to share his resources. Which calms him down.

So you are trying to control your husbands emotions by manipulating him into buying a very expensive home where he divests from bitcoin and invests in real estate?

Do I have that right?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

  I have to protect the children and myself. 

I'm confused.  I thought you were protecting yourself and your children by getting access to the half of your proceeds..so your husband can't control you anymore.

Was I mistaken in my understanding?

Do you NOT need to protect yourself from you husband and the threats and actions he regularly takes against you and your children? 

I must have missed where you guys reconciled this issue..

Best,

FF

[snowglobe]

After a screaming match, tears, accusations and his passive aggressive behaviour towards me the day before I took the time out. I didn’t call or text him all day, he only sent me a text regarding work and forwarded the bill. When he arrived I came to greet him, just to be ignored and silent treated. When I inquired about the work related he gave me a murdering look and replied something incoherent like “show it up your ...” , the usual classics. Realizing I would not get far with this I backed away to a different floor and didn’t bother him for the whole night. I slept with my s, while giving him custody of the bedroom. To my surprise he slept on a tiny little love seat (we have two full size couches in case of anything ) thus projecting victimization upon himself. “I’m such a poor little boy, being forced and pressured, I don’t even have a normal place to sleep”. This is also a stage of stonewalling by him, at the final stages of it he threatens divorce, always. When he isn’t being comforted, looked after, massaged and placated his dis regulation peaks. In my opinion it’s good for now, I don’t want him to feel comfortable. I do want him to feel pressured to make things right. I don’t want to save him from the consequences of his actions. Whichever way chips fall, this afternoon I start compiling my resume and hopefully find a position. Once I remove the financial  chocker from my neck, I will be able to see things clearer, without my fear projecting doom like realities. I hope to get a clear understanding of what I want from life, how I want to be treated. He will have what Ff calls a choice to connect the dots. He is a very bright and intelligent man. I hope. Once he realizes that his assets will be decided and I won’t die under the bridge and give up the kids to him just so they can survive, I think he will start listening. Magical thinking? Maybe.
To those of you who had followed me in the past, in your opinion, how severe is my ibpdh’s condition? Is he capable of a change, or is he too affected?  

[Notwendy]

I think Snowglobe's wish to stabilize the family is reasonable and also that it made sense to contact the realtor to ask for a reduced fee. There's nothing wrong with asking. It's difficult to live with someone with disordered thinking and getting validation that you aren't crazy from others really helps. The fine line about doing this though is the potential for triangulation with others.

It feels good and in some ways is essential to have people validate us - but also when people do "take our side" we might miss out on the kind of feedback that leads us to change. For me, working with a sponsor who turned the mirror on me sometimes felt kind of brutal. It was a tough love that I remain grateful for. I was participating in some craziness also thinking I was doing it for the family. In a way, I was but also resulted in me being unhappy and resentful.

The other side of co-dependency is that- the codependent can look like the good guy- the self sacrificing one who is "doing it for the family" but it actually is downright manipulative. People don't like to be manipulated. It actually pushes them away when the co-dependent person is trying to bring them closer.

Enabler- I think you are right to see that these dysfunctional dynamics do stabilize a family in a way.  A disordered person paired with a co-dependent is a state of balance between them. They are actually quite attracted to each other and potentially are lasting bonds. The problem is- as we have seen on this board- is it takes an emotional toll on the non. The pwBPD isn't necessarily happy- but they tend to act out on their feelings- project them and their partner tends to emotionally caretake them. In return, the non feels needed and this helps their own abandonment fears.

Can you use the Karpman triangle to stabilize a family? Yes, it's the way dysfunctional families interact to keep stable. But is also results in people feeling hurt and like victims.

When a participant in the dysfunction decides to stop participating in drama ( while staying together) , there is a risk of the relationship being out of balance. The other person then may decide to be done with the relationship, or they may learn to change their behavior too which leads to emotionally healthier dynamics- a different state of stability. Still, it's a risk and a risk some people may not want to take.

[snowglobe]

So you are trying to control your husbands emotions by manipulating him into buying a very expensive home where he divests from bitcoin and invests in real estate?

Do I have that right?

Best,

FF

Let start from the beginning- he put an ultimatum about buying a better property and selling our current one, otherwise he will leave me. And yes, once the first part of the contract is fulfilled I’m waiting for the second part, the purchase with anticipation that he will invests something valuable that he loves and internally motivates him to stay in line

[formflier]

 Next question - how do you manipulate narcissist to do what they promised to do?

Is it really our place to teach someone how to manipulate someone else?

I was under the impression we were helping teach Snowglobe how to protect herself and children from further physical and emotional attacks from her husband.

Since Snowglobe has repeatedly asks us to be explicit with her and our concerns...I'll be explicit.

It appears to me she is trying to learn skills from us to manipulate her husband into making a large financial purchase, vice care for the mental and physical health of her family.

It also appears that most people believe this financial move will result in more instability in Snowglobe's life, since it will increase the amount of financial control her husband has over her.

Not really sure what is appropriate here.  This is worrisome...I can't imagine this turns out well for Snowglobes family.

FF

[snowglobe]

I'm confused.  I thought you were protecting yourself and your children by getting access to the half of your proceeds..so your husband can't control you anymore.

Was I mistaken in my understanding?

Do you NOT need to protect yourself from you husband and the threats and actions he regularly takes against you and your children? 

I must have missed where you guys reconciled this issue..

Best,

FF

I would be left with 1/4 of the resources and he would be left with 3/4, the financial imbalance would be so great that he can squish me in court, should I at least not try and balance it.

[formflier]

  should I at least not try and balance it.

No

FF

[snowglobe]

Is it really our place to teach someone how to manipulate someone else?

I was under the impression we were helping teach Snowglobe how to protect herself and children from further physical and emotional attacks from her husband.

Since Snowglobe has repeatedly asks us to be explicit with her and our concerns...I'll be explicit.

It appears to me she is trying to learn skills from us to manipulate her husband into making a large financial purchase, vice care for the mental and physical health of her family.

It also appears that most people believe this financial move will result in more instability in Snowglobe's life, since it will increase the amount of financial control her husband has over her.

Not really sure what is appropriate here.  This is worrisome...I can't imagine this turns out well for Snowglobes family.

FF

Fair enough Ff, how do you see me taking the 1/4 of the assets while he is pissed working out better? He wants 100% of the proceeds from sale should we not purchase. It’s a Cold War and his finger is on the red button. Once the house is closed and the proceeds went to the lawyer, even if I agree to rent, he will ask for the money to be put on our joint account.

[formflier]

 the financial imbalance would be so great that he can squish me in court,  

This is "magical thinking".  I also believe this is personalizing something that should not be personalized.

How did we move from the prior goals to "balancing the finances"?  

When was that discussed and thought through?

FF

[snowglobe]

No

FF

I value your expertise and opinion, what is Ff’s proposed solution to “balancing out” the family?

[formflier]

  how do you see me taking the 1/4 of the assets while he is pissed working out better? 

Because you will control it completely independently of your husband  He will not be able to manipulate YOU with finances.

YOU and you alone will be able to determine when and where YOU and your children get mental health care to heal from YEARS of abuse.

Your husband will NOT be able to withdraw financial support and control your health and mental health choices.

That is explicitly how you "taking" 1/4 (or another amount) will "work out better"

Isn't it "better" for your family to heal from years of abuse?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I value your expertise and opinion, what is Ff’s proposed solution to “balancing out” the family?

For snowglobe to control a pot of money that her husband can NOT control.

Your family will be more "balanced" after they have healed from years of abuse and threats.

I DO NOT see an option where you can heal AND the financial balance sheet between you and your husband is "even".

I do see that Snowglobe needs to make a values based choice. 

1.  Is it more important to her to "balance the books" (very broad term)
2.  Is it more important to her to provide healing mental health care to her family.

I don't see an option where she can do both.  I do believe if she tries to do both, neither will be accomplished.

FF

[Notwendy]

I don't think manipulating someone into doing something they don't want to do is a recipe for happiness as a couple. When I made my post above, it was in reply to the question- can you use the Karpman triangle to stabilize a couple and it is a stabilizer- with plenty of dysfunction that results in people feeling hurt and resentful.

I think the choice is up to you Snowglobe. Your H uses manipulation to get what he wants by threatening you with divorce. The threat works because you basically will do what he wants to not be divorced. Now you are holding him to the ultimatum he gave you- to sell and buy.

Yet, I do wonder if this was also a way to get you to sell the house to free up funds for other reasons- his business. Now, perhaps he is feeling cornered ( manipulated) to do something he doesn't want to do.

[Enabler]

Is it really our place to teach someone how to manipulate someone else?

I was under the impression we were helping teach Snowglobe how to protect herself and children from further physical and emotional attacks from her husband.

Since Snowglobe has repeatedly asks us to be explicit with her and our concerns...I'll be explicit.

It appears to me she is trying to learn skills from us to manipulate her husband into making a large financial purchase, vice care for the mental and physical health of her family.

It also appears that most people believe this financial move will result in more instability in Snowglobe's life, since it will increase the amount of financial control her husband has over her.

Not really sure what is appropriate here.  This is worrisome...I can't imagine this turns out well for Snowglobes family.

FF

I agree with this summary regarding the direction of travel of this thread.

I think there is a mismatch between what the board classifies as 'protecting' and what Snowglobe classifies as 'protecting'. The board see's 'protecting' as being physically and mentally safe, children out of harms reach, and SUFFICIENT preservation of financial resources to continue moving forward with an adequate life. Snowglobe (and I am not saying you are wrong here as this might be 'fair' in the legal sense) wants to be in a position where her 'fair' share of the assets are visible should a divorce happen... the question then rises should the board be spending time helping attain 'fair' or 'sufficient' as a bar... want and need!

Snowglobe, I think you feel that if the balance of power (power being visible vs invisible assets) in the relationship is reweighted such that your H has more to lose should he threaten divorce (treat you badly), he would have a greater vested interest in playing happy families. Like others I do not agree with this assumption. If he feels he has lost power, I believe that he will make even more effort to regain power. The conflict will increase not decrease. Also distress tolerance is pretty central to BPD, a larger more expensive property = more financial stress to maintain that standard of living... = more dysregulation.

I don't see this as a route to stabilise the relationship, I see this as destined result in the end of the relationship but with greater access to the money pot.

As far as the realtor goes, you've said your piece, they are now JADEing, they need to sweat on it a little, be standoffish and let them work it out.

Enabler

[babyducks]

Let start from the beginning- he put an ultimatum about buying a better property and selling our current one, otherwise he will leave me. And yes, once the first part of the contract is fulfilled I’m waiting for the second part, the purchase with anticipation that he will invests something valuable that he loves and internally motivates him to stay in line

If he invests a large sum of money in the house he will be less likely to divorce fearing having to divide assets.  This will keep him in line?

I agree with what Enabler wrote so well.   This will teach Hubby that threatening divorce and pressuring Snowglobe will get him what he wants.

I also agree he will try harder to get back the power he feels he lost.

If Snowglobe gets her resume out there and finds employment that would be a step to removing the financial pressure.

Addressing only the financial pressure isn't what this website is ideally suited for.     Building healthier relationship between people is the charter.

[Cat Familiar]

This thread has reached its maximum length and is now locked. The conversation continues here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=337774.0