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Author Topic: So unsure of everything  (Read 536 times)
4peece

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« on: July 02, 2019, 01:07:52 PM »

I have been married for 24 years and have felt for a very long time that something was not right.  I think I have been making excuses for a very long time for my wife's physical, verbal, and emotional abuse.  My wife has never been formally diagnosed with anything, but until very recently she has refused to acknowledge that there may be a problem in the way she views the problems in our turbulent relationship.  We have 4 children, and I fear for the damage that she is doing to them.  I feel like my mind and heart are full of a million thoughts and emotions, and I could type for days describing the pain I feel, and have felt in my marriage.  I have read so many books, and seen many therapists, and each resource I consult seems to confirm that my wife has BPD with some NPD tendencies.  I feel incredibly uncomfortable making this statement because I am not a mental health professional, and I understand that this can only be determined by a professional.  I feel comfortable saying however that the numerous books, and stories that I have read over the past several years leave very little doubt in my mind that this is accurate.  I would say that for anyone who has lived with the pain, confusion, frustration, and agony of someone with BPD, and then you hear someone describe what its like to live with someone officially diagnosed with BPD, you just know, the fit is too good, the explanations of the inexplicable communication tornado are spot on.  The feeling I get when I see how accurately my life is described in the resources about BPD is equal parts relief, and horror.  I think you all know exactly what I mean when I say that.  I don't kw where to go from here, because I don't see any way to find love in my heart for this woman that has said and done things that brought me to the edge of despair.  I would love to hear input and ideas, and really anything that anyone has to offer, because I am desperate to find peace again.
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AskingWhy
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« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2019, 01:28:23 PM »

4peece, welcome to the group.  Many of us on this site have experienced what you have gone through.

I myself am married, for more than 20 years, to a uBPD H.  My H has always been volatile, almost from the time we were married, and enmeshed with his children from his first marriage.  (Then small children and now adults.)  This is common with BPDs as they are chameleons and will show you what you want to see at the time.  At the time of my courtship, my H showed me a kind, compassionate and fun-loving man who thought the world of me.  In time, after the marriage, he showed his true colours:  violent (punching holes in walls, breaking furniture, etc), insulting, verbally abusive, and putting his children in his first marriage ahead of me.  (He allowed his children to verbally abuse me and did not enforce house rules, allowing his children to disobey me with impunity.) 

You are well aware that it's very heartbreaking to be married to a spouse with BPD.  It's like living with a Jekyll and Hyde, and you don't know--even hour to hour--which person you will be dealing with.  

I, too, was able to diagnose my H by reading. At first, it was reading about abusive relationships and then later about the actual clinical diagnosis of BPD.  As you know, NPD is often a part of the BPD diagnosis as BPDs, at various times, exhibit aspects of other PDs.  The more functional a pwBPD is, the more he/she is inclined to have NPD characteristics.  

If you have not already, please read, "Walking On Eggshells," by Randi Kreger, and also the companion book, "The Essential Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder."  These are good starting points.

An official diagnosis, IMO, is not important to navigate a R/S with a uBPD.  

Browse this site for tools in dealing with your W.

Welcome to the site and please add to the discussion.  Perhaps you can expand on the dynamics with your children.

 
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4peece

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« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2019, 02:27:21 PM »

Thank you AskingWhy for your response, and you said something in your post that is so confusing for me.  I get so incredibly confused about how much I may be contributing to our problems.  You said that your H had punched holes in walls. 

The thing is, I have done this a couple of times (3 to be precise), and so then I question that maybe it is me with the mental illness, and I have caused her to manifest symptoms. 

The reason behind my emotional outburst was monumental frustration over not being able to communicate with my wife.  The times I got so frustrated that I hit the wall were when everything that came out of my mouth, she invalidated.  I spoke with confidence, she said I was arrogant, if I spoke softly, she said I was a wuss.  I have found that in 99% of our discussions/arguments my best course of action was to just say absolutely nothing, because anything I say gets re-framed to be hurtful or offensive to her.  Even the way I breath, or tilt my head, or look at her she claims to be hurtful and offensive. 

So I say nothing at all, but then she got even smarter and said that she had to assume by my silence that I agree with everything she is saying and so she is monumentally hurt that I could say all those things to her and about her. 

Even though I didn't say them, she did.

I remained absolutely silent and she claimed that my silence was agreement, and therefore it was exactly as if I had said them myself.
 
So, yes, I got so frustrated that I couldn't say anything, and then I could even stay silent, that my mere existence could be construed to be hurtful somehow. 

I tried to walk away, and she told me that I was running from my problems, and I needed to face her.

So I arrive at a point that any of my words are hurtful, my silence is hurtful, the way I breath is hurtful, my posture is hurtful, my wanting to leave this intolerable discussion is hurtful, my simple existence is reduced to causing her pain.

So I hit the wall, because I was at a loss.

Does that make me mentally ill, or just desperate to exist in a world other than the one inside her mind?

Am I crazy?  I feel like I have lost touch with my own reality, and there is only her, like I only exist in her mind.  Yet when I am away from her for only a few hours, I find my soul again.  When I am away from her for a day or more, I feel alive again...I feel myself being present.  When I am back with her, I feel like I cease to exist as myself.

I know that was a lot, I started typing and it just started pouring out.  There is so much more...SO MUCH MORE.  I don't even know where to start sometimes.  Thank you for listening (or reading as it where)
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All_Out_of_Sync
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« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2019, 05:53:09 PM »

4peece, welcome to the board!

 I am pretty new here myself but from what you wrote, it sounds like you are in the right place!

I have many similarities in my own story, married for 20 years to an undiagnosed wife and a few kids as well. I often fear the emotional damage that is occurring to my children. I often hear similar accusations about what I do, say, think, how I sit, the look on my face, how I breath is wrong and causing  our problems.  "If you only did _____ next time, I would react differently."   What?

I have, through my own reading & personal work, have come to recognize traits in my wife that align closely with BPD but I don't care if it is diagnosed or not. I can only imagine how difficult life is for people with BPD when emotions don't just inform but seemingly control their behavior & facts.

What I truly want is things to improve. Yes for my sake & the kids but mostly for my wife's sake!

From what you wrote, it sounds like you want similar; improvement, not blame.

  It sounds like you understand hitting the wall may not have been the best way to express yourself, you are owning that.  None of us are perfect.  Do you have an idea of how you will handle a similar situation differently next time?

I will allow the much wiser voices on this board give better advice as I am still in 'discovery mode' but I wanted to say glad to hear your voice and you are not alone!
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« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2019, 09:37:32 PM »

Thank you AskingWhy for your response, and you said something in your post that is so confusing for me.  I get so incredibly confused about how much I may be contributing to our problems.  You said that your H had punched holes in walls. 

The thing is, I have done this a couple of times (3 to be precise), and so then I question that maybe it is me with the mental illness, and I have caused her to manifest symptoms. 

The reason behind my emotional outburst was monumental frustration over not being able to communicate with my wife.
I read this part and it's almost as if I was writing it myself.  I found myself more than once, questioning my own sanity and thinking maybe I was unstable myself.  Through many posts and receiving a lot of feedback that I found out that I was mirroring the behavior.  I was living in such a state of fight of flight and anxiety, that I began to lash out in ways I never thought I ever would.  I was also made aware that even the fact I questioned my sanity in such a way that I wasn't really crazy.
So, yes, I got so frustrated that I couldn't say anything, and then I could even stay silent, that my mere existence could be construed to be hurtful somehow. 

Does that make me mentally ill, or just desperate to exist in a world other than the one inside her mind?

Am I crazy?  I feel like I have lost touch with my own reality, and there is only her, like I only exist in her mind.  Yet when I am away from her for only a few hours, I find my soul again.  When I am away from her for a day or more, I feel alive again...I feel myself being present.  When I am back with her, I feel like I cease to exist as myself.
I want to really echo something you said here.  When you are away from her, you find your soul again.  Longer time, you feel alive.  Then you go to her and you become a shell.  This is very important for you to think about.  Real love should not make you feel like a hollow shell when you are with that person.  Your intuition and gut is giving you the signs.  Your soul knows what is good for you and it's trying to tell you. 

I know we do not advise to stay or leave.  I also fully understand how extremely complicated things become when children are involved.  Just know that you can sense that this is really wrong and as I have learned the hard way also that you can't change people.  They have to want to change themselves to be better.  We can try to be supportive and guide them, but that is also a fine line.  If she doesn't want to ever acknowledge the problem, what can you do to save you own sanity?
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« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2019, 09:40:31 PM »

I also do agree with All Out Of Sync.  There is many board admins that give wonderful advice.  They saved my own sanity more times than I can count.  They have seen my stories from the very start to where I am now.  Everyone has different paths, but we are all here to help.
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4peece

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« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2019, 07:32:08 PM »

Thank you for your comments.  I understand that at some point I will need to decide what is healthy and what I need to do.  I don't think I am at a point where I feel I can make a definitive decision yet.  Too many avenues I feel are still untried, and I need to know I gave it everything I had before I  look at the option of ending the relationship.

Some days it's not as painful, and it's hard to see how anything is wrong.  The best way I can think of to describe it is like a large beautiful dance, where everyone in the room is listening to the same music, and watching a dance come to life...and then all of a sudden that sound of a record player screeching as the needle is yanked off of the vinyl.  The music stops and I turn to look and think "huh?  Where did that come from?"

Life is flowing along and I find myself holding my breath and waiting for the next dramatic emergency.  I could find a way to work through it.  I have read a lot of the books, and I could practice the techniques to help her, but a relationship that I have to "manage" doesn't seem like it could ever be fulfilling to me.  A relationship that I have to remind myself not to take personally very intense angry outbursts that feel very intentional and painful. 

I have been able to understand, and see that many of the very hurtful things have originated in her fear of abandonment, but even though
I understand, it starts to wear on me, and I long for a relationship that I could tell her straight up "That hurts when you say that, please don't say things like that to me." 

It gets mentally and emotionally exhausting to absorb her intense and personal insults, and try to find something I can validate her with first, before I tell her it doesn't feel very good when she says nasty things to me.

It just feels incredibly frustrating that I have found the most effective way to diffuse my wife's anger is to pretend she is the same as my 10 year old daughter. 

How do I find fulfillment having a relationship with a woman that has the emotional development of a 10 year old?

I truly hope she can learn and grow, but I'm just not sure that she can. 

I find it hard to understand the fear of abandonment.  I see that it is a real fear, but it's hard to wrap my head around  it, especially being more of an introvert myself.  I really enjoy my solitude alone time to think and figure out my own emotions.

Thanks for listening.  Let me know if any of this doesn't make sense, I have been writing this at work and have to come and go when work tasks demand, so some of it may be disjointed.





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4peece

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« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2019, 07:47:24 PM »

I feel the need to explain why I have come to the point that I have after 24 years of marriage.  It has been because of the impact on my kids as they have started to have to deal with her problems.  I hate to rehash past experiences because it makes me feel like I am just complaining about my wife's behavior.  I don't intend to whine or complain, but to truly get feedback about how to handle my future.  

This is an event from 3 months ago that I actually wrote down 2 days after it happened, because it seemed like one of the first times that I was able to set aside me emotional hurt from the event and see her behavior objectively.  I will cut and paste it here

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4peece

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« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2019, 08:43:26 PM »

This was the morning of our second day in an amusement park with our daughter for her 13th Birthday trip with mom and dad.

My wife had also been looking non-stop at airline flights for our summer trip in June.  She seemed very intensely into getting it figured out and she mentioned that she belonged to a website that notified her when cheap airfare prices become available for a limited time.  

When we were in the lines for rides, she was constantly on her phone looking things up.  She was on her phone much more than my daughter was.  I felt my daughter was hurt each time my wife brought up a conversation about airfare for the next vacation and asked a few times why we were planning our next vacation while we were currently on vacation for her birthday.

I said I wanted to go get a locker to put coats in so that when it got cold that night  we didn’t have to go to the car to get them.  My daughter came with me to get the locker and when we returned my wife was sitting on a wall with her hands on her knees looking very sick.  I asked her if she was not feeling well and she said she was “having a massive panic attack”

This seems to a be a common way that she uses to make sure that her current crisis does not get overshadowed by anything or anyone else.  My daughter is getting very frustrated at this point that most of today was about the fear and panic of losing this great deal on the airfare, and now it has become a full-blown emergency.  My wife at this point is wringing her hands, rocking forward and backward, and visibly shaking and breathing very deeply and loudly.  It was impossible to try to downplay the urgency of the matter without feeling like you would be the most insensitive jerk for not taking seriously what was apparently a crisis of epic proportion.   My wife said she just needed like 10 minutes to figure out the airfare situation.

My daughter and I went on a ride to give her 10 minutes to figure it out.  When we returned after the ride, the situation had deteriorated and now my wife was crying inconsolably and gasping between sobs.

I asked her what had happened and she said the airfare that was there was now gone, and the deal had been lost and that she had just had a question for me and we had not been there so she was not able to finish something.  I asked what can we then do about it now.  She said the deal was only still available if we came home 1 day later on Sunday rather than Saturday.  I thought that this would be fine and said let’s go ahead and do that.  

My daughter then made a comment about us wasting time planning for out next trip when we were here to ride rides with her.  That seemed to make my wife quite angry and she spoke about how hard she works and how many hours she spends to plan these vacations for us and that she never gets any input from anyone, and so she is left all by herself to plan them, and that we just say we don’t care and then everyone gets mad at her when things don’t work out.  

I then said that things usually work out pretty well, and that I don’t feel like anyone gets mad or blames her if things aren’t perfect.  

At this point my daughter withdrew, she just became quite and started playing a game on her phone.    

So, I am trying as hard as I can to help without getting too emotionally involved because I feel sympathy for my daughter that she feels like her special trip is getting overrun with her mom’s drama.  She is not the best at expressing her emotions and frustrations about it, but I am cutting her a break because she is 13.  

So, I am helping my wife enter information into the website and we finally get things entered and the credit card information entered and the airfare bought.  My daughter seems despondent at this point because I sense she feels like her special trip is being ruined by some other vacation plans in the future.  So, I try to get her to cheer up, because the longer she shows that sad disappointed look, the more it will upset my wife.  

That’s what happens, my daughter doesn’t cheer up and my wife gets upset and offended that she is doing all this work for our family and “no one cares, they just complain”.
At this point I am losing my mind trying to cheer up a teenager and manage an adult tantrum.  So, we walk towards the next ride with my wife walking obviously away from us, purposefully not making eye contact.  It was the most blatant display of throwing a tantrum that I have ever seen.  She walked either ahead of us or behind us by several feet.  

So, we get into line and when you get to the front of the line, they ask you how many are together so they can group you together riding the ride.  Every single ride for the past day and a half we have said that there are 3 of us.  When we get to the front on this ride my wife is at the front and I start to say we are 3 people, and she cuts me off and says “No, just one.” Indicating that she is riding alone and me and my daughter are riding together.  

My daughter looks at me and whispers “What’s going on?”  

I say just hang in there, so we get up in loading “stalls” side by side and I say to my wife that it is her turn to ride with our daughter.  

My wife says with emphasized mock surprise “oh, you WANT to ride with me?”  

My daughter says yes, and seems to be really confused as to why this is all happening, and why mom is acting like this.  So, we ride the ride, it’s a fun one, and I am trying to make conversation to lighten the mood, but after the ride my wife takes off walking way out in front of us with her hands in her pockets like she is all alone.

My daughter said she needed to go to the bathroom and we went to the bathroom.  

My wife and I sat on the bench outside the bathroom and I asked her to please work through this.  She said that she felt abandoned by both of us, and that she couldn’t figure out why I was not saying something to our daughter for how rude she had been speaking to her about wasting time looking at airfare when we came to ride rides.  I did not interpret my daughter’s comments to be rude, just the comments of a teenager that is feeling unimportant, and not really understanding the reason why this is all happening.  

Then my daughter came out of the bathroom and I asked if we could just move past this and that my daughter didn’t quite understand how difficult it was to plan these kinds of things, and that she was feeling excitement to ride the rides and was just disappointed.  
My wife said “Well, I’M trying.”  Hard emphasis on “I’M” indicating that she felt like she was trying and no one else was.  

We all got up and started to walk away and my wife put her arm around my daughter, I thought to hug her and connect, but she started to hang on her and walk kind of like a handicapped person using my daughter for a crutch.  My daughter giggled a little bit and I thought it was good that my wife was trying to lighten the mood by playing around and being the “goofy mom”.  

After 20 feet of this or so my daughter said “ouch, mom your pulling hard on my arm”  but my wife didn’t stop, and a few more feet my daughter said “ok, mom, it was funny at first, but now your pulling really hard and it hurts my arm.”  

My daughter did not yell or speak aggressively when she said this.  

My wife still did not stop, she kept pulling hard on her arm and walking in a more exaggerated way of now what appeared to be mocking a handicapped person.

At this point my daughter said louder and more forcefully, “Mom, please stop, you are really hurting my arm, please let go. Go away!”  At his point I can’t believe what I am seeing happen.  My wife finally let go of her arm and said “Whatever.” Or “Fine.”  I don’t remember exactly, but she walked off again with her hands in her pockets.

I tried to stay as calm and emotionless as I possibly could and we had talked about getting refills on our drinks, so I suggested we go in and get drinks, but the line was so long, so we kept going towards the ride that my daughter said was the one she wanted to ride next.  There was very little conversation that I remember until we got to the entrance, and my daughter said she wanted to go with her mom on this one.

My wife said to our daughter, “You tell me to go away, now you want me to go on the ride with you, you’re bipolar!”  

I was shocked that she would say that, and I looked at my daughter and she looked confused.  We entered the line for the ride, and nobody really spoke for a while.  I don’t think I said anything at all during this time, but I do know with absolute certainty that I did not react to anything my wife was saying or doing.  I remember feeling like I was trying to relax my face and just be completely emotionless.  

After we were in line for a little while, maybe 15 minutes.  My wife said that back there when she called her bipolar that wasn’t the best thing to say and asked if my daughter understood what that meant.  She said no.  She then explained that it was a term used to describe someone that has a mental illness and changes their mind a lot, but that in any case it was a derogatory term.  

Then she said, “Did that tick you off?”  I wasn’t facing her, and so it took me a second to register that she was talking to me, and I said “What?”  She repeated and said “Did that tick you off?”  I hesitated, and then she said “because I saw the look on your face when I said it to her.”  

I couldn't figure out why she was asking me.  It caught me off guard, because it seemed out of place that while she was apologizing (I think) to our daughter for calling her bipolar, she wanted to know if it had ticked ME off.  

Why was she watching the reaction on my face as she was insulting our daughter?

It didn’t seem to make any sense why she wanted to know if I was upset by it if she was trying to apologize to.  

I said that, no it didn’t.  I couldn’t figure out why she was concerned about my reaction to her insult and not her daughter’s feeling about it.  This was very true, because it didn’t tick me off, it scared me and made me very sad that my wife would throw a personal insult at our daughter for reasons that I can’t begin to comprehend.  

I deeply hurt me for my daughter even though she didn’t know what it meant, I think she knew it was negative.

The line then moved and no one talked for the rest of the ride and my wife refused to make any eye contact, she had her sunglasses on and was crying under her sunglasses because she kept wiping at her cheeks.  

I felt deep in a pit of sadness, because my wife was crying as if deeply hurt when she had just called her daughter bipolar and then tried to engage me into anger by baiting me about “a look” I had on my face.  

I really couldn’t believe what I was seeing and hearing.  We then walked in silence to the next ride that our daughter wanted to ride.  

My wife’s demeanor seemed to change instantly when we were all on the ride, and she said “Can we just move past the awkwardness?”  

My wife turned to our daughter who was riding next to her and said “I’m sorry mom that I was acting like that when you were just trying to plan us a good trip.”

My daughter was confused by this because she responded by saying, “I’m not your mom.”  

My wife proceeded saying, “I’m sorry mom that I didn’t appreciate what you were doing getting the airplane rides.”  She then said “Well, now that’s out of the way we can all have a good time.”

It was very apparent that my wife had fabricated an apology from our daughter that she felt she was owed, and then seemed to carry on as if none of it had ever happened.  She seemed satisfied by our daughter's apology even though she had almost "role-played" the apology conversation by herself.

This was the first time I thought that my wife might suffer from a real mental illness.  I no longer had the ability to account for her erratic behavior otherwise.



« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 08:55:36 PM by 4peece » Logged
I Am Redeemed
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« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2019, 08:34:53 PM »

Hi 4peece, Welcome

I am so sorry for what you are going through, and especially the incident with your daughter's birthday. That had to be hurtful and confusing for both of you. Have any of your kids ever been to a therapist? The things you describe your wife doing and saying to your daughter are pretty concerning.

You asked a question above about being confused about how we contribute to the dysfunction in the relationship. At the top of the Bettering board there is a section called Lessons. In there, you will find some answers about some of the ways in which we unknowingly contribute to the dysfunction. Here is the link:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56206.msg913188#msg913188

I understand how you can think that you might have some issues yourself with the punching the wall thing. Many of us have resorted to behaviors that were not healthy out of frustration and exhaustion. It does not mean you are crazy. You recognize that this was not a good way to react, and that alone indicates that you are not crazy. Living under the relentless emotional and mental strain of a relationship with an untreated disordered person can bring out undesirable reactions in us if we are not engaging in self care and healthy ways to cope with the stress.

Do you see a therapist just for yourself? Even if your wife does not recognize that she has a problem, it might be good for you in order to help you keep your own sanity. It's also good to have someone to help ground us, as it is all too easy to buy into the distorted reality of an untreated pwbpd (person with bpd or bpd traits).

I am glad you found us, and I hope you will check out the articles on the website. There are many tools here that can be helpful for communicating with pwbpd. I would suggest, in addition to the Lessons, searching through the Community Built Knowledge Base for the workshops, particularly the ones on Don't JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) and using SET (Support, Empathy, Truth) statements for communication. I don't want to load you up with too much right off the bat, so browse and read at your convenience, and please keep posting. We are here for you.

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« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2019, 07:43:14 PM »

Thank you Redeemed for your kind words of encouragement.  I have been to a few therapists over the last 7-8 years, they have each helped in their own way, and I am currently seeing a very good one.  I have learned a lot about myself and how unhappy I was and how much I needed to take better care of myself regardless of the rage attacks that may occur, and occur they did. 

The outright physical abuse is now in the past, but the rage attacks are just more subtle now.  The therapy brought me from the brink of despair several years ago as I couldn't figure out why I felt like I didn't get to live my life. 

I thought for a while that she was just a mean tempered person, but several years ago after therapy helped me stay calm during a rage attack, I kept coming back with calm thoughtful responses that I was giving her everything she was claiming to want from me.  I finally said "I feel like I am sincerely trying to give you all that you need to be loved, and be happy, so what is it that you want from me?"

Her answer was the beginning of my understanding of the deeper issue, she said, "I want your mind." 

Yes, she actually said that... it was a strange moment.  I responded with, "well it's mine, and you can't have it."

She has since re-framed this moment to mean something different than it was, but it was as clear as day to me, and the look on her face when she said it was a mixture of puzzlement and horror.  It was as if her subconscious squirted out the true reality of what it knew it wanted.

I read through a lot of the links in the post you recommended, and it is very helpful.  I am pretty sure I have some level of co-dependency as I love to give and help others.  Some of the traits fit, and others don't, but it seems to me that it is likely a case of my co-dependency was like gasoline on the fire of her BPD.  I was in deep and hard before I realized there was a problem.

The problem I am having now is that her BPD behavior is still there, she has made a lot of progress in stopping some of the things she used to do that where so hurtful, but it appears to be completely motivated by self preservation and not a realization that it hurt me deeply.

It's like she realized that she had caused so much pain to me that she realized she had gone to far and needed to curb her rage or she would face abandonment.  So now it seems as though she is able to check her rage when she feels I am feeling overwhlemed by her, and allows herself to rage fully when she feels I am in a good place and secure enough to absorb it from her.

This has the effect of feeling like as soon as I self-care myself into a somewhat healthy state of mind, she unloads big time.  It's noticeable that when I feel like I am re-finding the self that I have lost over the years, some sort of massive crisis occurs.  She seems to have also learned that I was able to allow her handle her own stuff, but when she creates a crisis with the kids, I can't avoid being drawn in to protect them.

Besides the Birthday trip I described above there are many other times that she initiates a high drama conflict with one of the kids, and then "falls apart" emotionally herself and leaves me trying to hold together a fractured teenagers mind.  I can't walk away and let her try to "clean up her own mess" with the kids because they would suffer, and I can't allow them to suffer for something that is beyond their control or understanding.

Anyway, thank you again for your post.  The understanding and information in the link is valuable and helpful as I travel this road.
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« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2019, 02:10:39 PM »

I am posting on this thread that I started as thoughts come up, it is a way for me to unload issues that I don't seem to be able to unload between visits to therapist.

Something that has eaten at me lately was that me and my uBPDw were in conflict quite a bit a few months ago and I blew up and yelled at her.  This was actually the first time I have really yelled at her in our 24 year relationship.  It is a moment I am not proud of, and I regret losing control of my emotions like that, she told me I needed to leave the house, and so I did. 

A few weeks later I was on her computer (which is also the family computer located in the kitchen of our home) looking for information on how to log into a website that we use for financial things at the house.  I needed to look up some bills so I could plan future expenses.  It seemed pretty benign and couldn't find the right login page on the web, so konwing that my wife logs into it all the time, I looked back at history to see if I could find a historical visit to the login page.  I already know the username and password, it was just a matter of finding the right web address to plug these into.

I stopped and felt a wave of panic as i saw a few web seraches thatt cam up as I was scanning for the login page address, they were:

"Can I make my husband move out"
"Order of protection"
"Divorce attorney"

These were the search strings entered into google.  I couldn't believe what I was seeing.  I have never physically, or even verbally threatened my wife or our children, or anyone else for that matter.  Part of me was amazed, the other part of me was scared to death.  Scared, because I couldn't figure out what she could possibly see that would justify or make valid anything to do with those searches.  The only way I could see that she could pursue anything to do with these searches was if she had decided to fabricate things.

I have never been a fearful person, or felt an paranoia about anything because I always felt that my actions would speak for themselves and I knew that I had done nothing remotely close to justify being thrown out of my house, or issue a restraining order, or for her to pursue divorce.  In fact there is a monumental mountain of evidence that would demonstrate just the opposite to be the truth. 

It was such a moment of reality warping disconnect that I didnt bring it up with her vbecuase I was completely unsure of what was going on and if I was about to be taken for the "ride of my life" in the legal system and she was about to put together an elaborate story of lies to get rid of me.  I really didn't know what to think, it was truly a mind-bending moment for me.

Things got wildly out of control emotionally in our house as she seemed to be trying to push every button possible to get me to get angry.  I cold only imagine that she was trying to trigger anger and had the police phone number on speed dial to initiate her plan.  Writing this sounds ultra paranoid, but what was I to think when finding searches like that?

2 weeks ago in an argument I had just had enough and I asked her point blank "Would you like to figure out a way to get me out of your life?"

She said, "No, of course not, why would you think that?"

I told her about the internet searches that I had come across, and she said she had no idea where they had come from, and does not remember searching that at all. 

The only people that use that computer are my wife and our 10 year old daughter and 4 year old son.  There is no one else that would have searched that on that computer.  I told her I took a screen shot of them, so this isn't something I'm making up.

I was just completely at my wits end with finally confronting her with this, and now having really nothing because she denies any knowledge of it. 

How does she forget searching on how to make me move out of the house?

She now treats this as a non-issue, like "that was weird, I don't know how those searches got there, weird things happen sometimes."

I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone, and she is just "oh, well" that's a funny thing.

I would have been hurt, and frustrated if she had said that she was just scared, and in a moment of panic, she just looked at worst case scenarios.  On the contrary, she expressed absolute shock that they were even there, and then expressed sympathy about how that must have been so difficult to think for these weeks that she was trying to force me out. 

She expresses sympathy as if I am suffering from paranoid delusions.  It's such a mind warp, and it makes me feel as if I am going insane.  I sometimes wonder if what she is doing is intentionally trying to implode my mind.

How else do you explain when someone denies something that they obviously did, and then they express genuine concern about your delusional state for thinking they did it?

I understand know why people that live with a mentally ill person start to question their grasp on reality, it's real, and it happens, it's been happening to me for a while. 
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« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2019, 10:09:53 PM »

Hello 4peace and welcome,

Excerpt
How else do you explain when someone denies something that they obviously did, and then they express genuine concern about your delusional state for thinking they did it?

What your describing... this type of behavior... person with bpd does something... it effects you, you confront, person with bpd denies, claims they know nothing when in fact they know full well, and the they actually try to “comfort you”.

As I’ve read and studied over the past several years in my own journey... I’ve read about this behavior specifically... it can best be described as sort of “ munchausen by proxy “ ...

My own wife has done this to me, created a huge drama, emotional hurt to myself or others... then denied, then wanted to know that the persons were alright... this is crazy making,

Like an arsonist who brings coffee and doughnuts to the fireman...

There is a book I will suggest... it is reviewed here on this site, and it can be quickly accessed on YouTube as an audio book...

Here is a link:
https://bpdfamily.com/book-reviews/understanding-borderline-mother

Keep posting,

Kind Regards, Red5
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« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2019, 02:18:53 AM »

Thank you Red5,

I will look that book up right now.  I read all afternoon in the workshops about empathy, and learning to find empathy for the borderline.  I made a goal to really look deep... to look past her fear of abandonment, and try to find real empathy for her. 

That all went out the door, when I got home I walked into our bedroom and the bed which is never made because I can't make it in the morning because she is always still in it when I leave for work, and she never does make it.  I have never asked her to make it, or made her feel guilty about not making it, or hinted at all that I expected her to make it, or even mentioned it...ever.

Tonight it was made...exactly half.  The decorative pillows where arranged to an exacting halfway point.  I mean you could have drawn a straight line with a ruler down the bed with one half being perfectly neat and tidy (her half) and the other half still messy (my half).

The message was very clear, and it's these small subtle jabs that hurt so much, my empathy went right out the door and the pain of the last 24 years came screaming back.  All the times she screamed at me, threatened to destroy my life, hit me, pushed me, kicked me, threatened to "make me pay only the way she could because she knew me so well" (her words).

I have tried to find empathy...oh I have tried so hard, but I don't think I want to waste any more of my life trying to love someone who is willing to be maliciously and purposefully cruel to both me and her children.  My kids will hate me for years to come if I leave her, she promised me that.  She is an accomplished actress, and could win over the heart of anyone.  My kids have already forgotten the despicable and horrific things she said to them just a few weeks ago. 

Yes, I realize it sounds like I am going off about a simple thing like a half-made bed, but if you had walked in my shoes for the last 2 decades and experienced the living hell of her world, you would see what I mean.

Why am I still in this relationship?  Because I am an optimist to the core, and have always felt that there was good there, and mostly because I vowed to do so and I meant it.  My integrity is worth everything to me, my honor as a man, a husband, and a father is the core of who I am, but she has devoured that too, and I have nothing left to surrender to her.

I don't really know where I go from here, I am just completely emotionally on empty.  I see that this sounds really quite dramatic, but that is the world I live in, I am married to the person that is known to everyone that has ever met her as "The Drama Queen". 

I should have known, I just should have known.

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« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2019, 10:12:32 AM »

I am new here, as well, and I have read through your thread. Your daughter's birthday story hit me in the gut--my husband is so very much like your wife; I have seen this same behavior from him to our daughters.

I have nothing to add, but wanted to let you know that you are not alone. It seems that through all of this, you have gotten help for yourself, and that is to be applauded. You know your truth, and other peoples' behaviors cannot penetrate that.
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« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2019, 08:40:35 AM »

4peece,

I am so sorry. I can see how much you are struggling. You said you wanted to get to a point where you can figure out what is healthy, and I think on some level you already know that the environment you are in is not.

I just wondered if you have considered speaking with any domestic violence services in your area. From your description here, what you are experiencing is abuse, from the physical violence to the threats to destroy your life. These are tactics used to gain power and control over another person.

Could you take a look at this?

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=87480.0

How often does your wife become violent? Could you tell us when the last incident was?

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« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2019, 09:22:40 AM »

4peece,
As you know, living with a mentally ill person can take a great toll on our emotional health. It's difficult to find compassion in our heart when we experience personal attacks that seem designed to undermine us, such as the half-made bed.

Because people with BPD (pwBPD) feel so uncomfortable in their own skin, they often will displace these feelings upon a loved one, because it's just too painful to confront it themselves. And thus, you are the target. It seems that if you get upset, act irrationally, respond angrily, then it's somewhat comforting to them because they aren't the only one with difficulty controlling their emotions.

What we teach here can oftentimes lessen the difficulty of living with a mentally ill person. It can help you navigate the challenging situations that your wife may create, but it won't change her. It might minimize some of the acting out, but for any real improvement, she would need to commit to long-term therapy, preferably DBT, and many pwBPD are unwilling to do that.

You sound like you're contemplating divorce. Many of the members here have chosen to leave a toxic relationship. Others have utilized the tools here and have made their relationships much healthier.

Reading the description of your trip to the amusement park, what stands out in my mind is that your wife feels constantly invalidated and unappreciated. Lots of times pwBPD are oversensitive in this way, without any legitimate reason--it's just the nature of the disorder. And another part of this is that she might feel invalidated by things that wouldn't trigger a normal person --for example, your daughter's comment about wasting time planning the next trip. (My husband is like that--he needs a tremendous amount of appreciation and validation--far more than an average person and he gets invalidated very easily.) Here is a link that might be helpful: Communication Skills: Don't be Invalidating
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« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2019, 09:36:23 AM »

Hi 4peece, your story sound familiar too many people here, I'm sure. We understand.

I share Redeemed's concern regarding instances of violence, even if it's mostly in the past. The link she posted is a good one, it about Domestic violence towards men.

Excerpt
I have tried to find empathy...oh I have tried so hard, but I don't think I want to waste any more of my life trying to love someone who is willing to be maliciously and purposefully cruel to both me and her children.  My kids will hate me for years to come if I leave her, she promised me that.

Excerpt
Why am I still in this relationship?  Because I am an optimist to the core, and have always felt that there was good there, and mostly because I vowed to do so and I meant it.  My integrity is worth everything to me, my honor as a man, a husband, and a father is the core of who I am, but she has devoured that too, and I have nothing left to surrender to her.

On this board we won't tell you to stay or go. It's up to you, and we will support you in your choice. No judgement either way. There's a lot to take in at first, and you've been through some traumatic times, years even. So my advice is to take it slow and use the support here to find your footing. Then at some point down the road, you'll have a clear mind and feel more centred, so you can take the decision that's right for you.

And we're always here to listen.

What you'll find here are skills, tools and tips to help you lower the tensions at home. This is important whether you stay or go. We often talk about 'how to stop the bleeding' here, that is to say how to lessen the conflicts and lower the tensions. This is just as much for your sake and your kids' sake as it is for your wife's sake. When tensions go down some, and you have skills to make you feel more in control, it'll be easier on you. We can help you with this.

I know it can seem like we ask a lot, and you are exhausted and you're hurting. You can't control what your wife does, though, but you can control what you do. To make it better for you and the kids. We have the 3 minute lesson on ending conflict:
So, you need to get to a balanced place in your mind in which you are broadly aware of your real relationship goals and not just your painful emotion of the moment. It is important to practice now, so you can get there in situations of duress.

Another skill that goes hand in hand with what I linked to above, is to learn how to not be invalidating, the link Cat Familiar posted.
People with BPD have high validation needs - often very high. People with BPD are also very erratic in their validation of others - they can be extremely validating (over validating) and flip over and become very invalidating -  sometimes resentful of the validation that is being sought or that they previously expressed.
Understanding more about that is a really valuable skill in these relationships.

I hope you keep posting!
We're here, walking shoulder by shoulder with you.
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« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2019, 07:16:15 PM »

Thank you all, it has been a very rough few days, I don't know where to begin.  Right now she is demanding that I be totally transparent with my feelings about our future and thoughts I'm  having. 

I really want to open up and share with her, but 24 years has taught me that sharing true feelings with her is like putting ammunition in a gun pointed at my head.

She repeatedly said that she is no longer going to try to connect with me on an emotional level, that she is done trying and feels that we are just too different to be compatible.  Yet she emphatically states that she does not want a divorce, but that she is willing to keep going in this quasi-platonic relationship until I let her know I am ready to let her connect with me again.  My brain just went into a pretzel even trying to write that. 

The only thing I can put together as that she wants a divorce, but she in no way will pull the trigger herself.  If I initiate it, then any problems (trauma to kids, financial difficulties, etc.) can always be squarely deflected to me by saying "your the one that wanted a divorce."  This is standard behavior from her for over 2 decades.  If she can find a way to put the blame onto me, she is willing to suffer untold agony to avoid being responsible for anything negative.

When it comes to the kids, especially the birthday trip, IK have tried to validate her, but her responses make it clear that the only way she will feel or accept my attempt to validate, is if I invalidate whichever child is causing her pain at the moment.  She seems to gain a tremendous amount of validation simply by observing or causing the invalidation of someone else. 

It's very black/white, classic splitting.  She cant be validated unless everyone else is invalidated.  So you are either the smartest person in the room,  or you are the most inept fool the world has ever known.  There are no other alternatives.  When we discuss issues, there is no middle ground.  There is only one supremely right opinion, and all others are below even consideration.  Unless of course she decides there ought to be middle ground, and then that middle ground is represented only by the opinion that she holds, no other middle ground opinions are permitted.

If it sounds insane, that's because it is, and its pushing me to the point of literal brain implosion.
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« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2019, 07:37:59 PM »

As far as the abuse goes, she hasn't been blatantly violent for several years.  Why did she stop, I honestly don't know if she really realized it was wrong to push me and scream obscenities at the op of her lungs half and inch from my face, or if she realized that the kids were getting old enough to be able to witness it.

That sounds pretty pessimistic to say, but her rages did decrease in intensity about the time our son was 8 or 9.  The kids never saw or heard any of it.  If I can't prove that she was physically abusive,or still is verbally abusive without recording her, and it's very hard for me to do that, because it just feels so wrong to try to "catch" her in the act.  I don't know if I could live with myself if I caught her raging and then used it against her.  I know that sounds odd that if it's damaging then why would it bother me, but it does...immensely.  It feels like I would be degrading my own integrity.  I have always held to the belief that if a person behaves abusively they will end up revealing themselves and the consequences will follow naturally.

If I bring up an event in the past that she was abusive, she gets upset and says that she has apologized profusely, which for many things she has.  It just doesn't feel like she realizes that she hurt me so bad, it seems more like she knows she needs to apologize because its expected, but that inside there really is no remorse, just secret justification.
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« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2019, 11:01:56 AM »

I am grateful that this site is here, if for no other reason than it gives me a place to let out my emotions with out judgement.  I don't think Ive ever known life without judgement.

I don't think I have ever felt as sad as I do today.  I don't feel like I have very much more capacity to tolerate stress and conflict, but all of the pathways before me lead to increased stress and conflict.  So for right now I am taking the pathway of nothing.  I am doing nothing, I am not thinking or feeling right now.  I know the sadness and depression are there, but they are like the feelings of someone else, they are outside of me right now.  I don't know if that makes sense, probably not. 

I don't know what makes sense or what doesn't, all of my thoughts seem to be, actually I don't know what they seem to be, I can't really find words to describe what my thoughts and feeling are, just sadness and fear, lots of sadness and fear.  I think the direction I need to take to find any resemblance of happiness in life leads first through the worst hell I can imagine and I don't have the strength right now to make the journey.  I think that's the way to go, but I don't know, and I realize that no one can tell me which way to go.

So I know I need to just make a decision, but I am so exhausted from doing that.  I have been making courageous decisions since I was a very young child, always pretending to be the one with strength because there was no one else to be strong and someone has to lead. 

I feel panic and anxiety whenever I am around my wife, or I think about being around her.  I fear that she will say something that will cut deep, knowing I can't express the pain I might feel because that just makes her cut deeper.  The only way to make her stop hurting me is to absorb all she has to dump on me and then find a way to cope.  Now she hates me for emotionally distancing myself because it was the only way I could find to cope. 

I feel like 24 years of my life just vanished away in pain and suffering, and I can't get them back, but I can't escape it either.  I feel trapped in a cage that I built myself.

As you might guess it was a very tough weekend at home, and it is going to get worse, a lot worse.  I never thought another human being could make me feel so utterly pathetic about my existence.  I don't understand why I even care what she thinks, but it seems like life or death to do her biding because I can't handle the pain that she is willing to inflict.

Thank you for all of your commentary, it's really all I've got right now, so I sincerely thank you for trying to understand me, and responding back.   Just knowing that there is another human being typing somewhere that doesn't want something back from me in return means a lot.
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« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2019, 11:38:59 AM »

I am at work right now, and I have small windows of time to write, so I am going to continue to write.  It seems to be the only thing that gives me any relief at all from the pain.  I am not writing more trying to guilt other people here to respond, or create pressure to help me, I promise.  Writing in a public anonymous space seems to be the only thing that eases the anguish I feel.

I grew up in a house where my mother was married to my step dad and my mother hated my step dad, and I don't think he felt good enough about himself to do anything about being hated on all the time.  My biological father died when I was 6 months old, so I never knew him.  I became caretaker of my mother as far back as I can remember.  I knew somehow that if I didn't take responsibility for making her feel emotionally ok that no one else would.  So started my long lifetime journey of taking on other people emotions.  Feeling responsible for easing their emotional pain.  My mom and step dad lived apart but separate, more roommates than anything else.

A large part of my pain is due to the fact that I vowed that I would never follow in their footsteps and live a life of misery.  Now looking at my life I have created an almost exact copy of the life I swore I would never have.  I can see how it has happened, but I didn't realize it was happening at the critical moments where I could  have changed it's direction. 

I grew up in a miserable home with sometimes violent conflict, but mostly just never-ending tension and bitterness.  The resemblance of the life I now lead is almost exact.  How did I allow this to happen? 

It's hard to accept that I created the exact thing that I set out to avoid at all cost.

My wife is very familiar with my childhood as we have talked about it at length over the years.  She said yesterday that she doesn't want a divorce, she wants to just live without love to avoid the trauma of divorce.  I said I couldn't do that, I grew up with that, and it's not better.  She said that it's what she wants to do anyway. 

I feel very strongly that she is aware that this is the most vulnerable place in my entire soul to cut at.  She knows how desperately I wanted to avoid re-creating my childhood.  I get the strong impression that she would not be satisfied living a loveless existence as roommates.  She reacts very strongly when I emotionally pull away. 

So why would she willingly try to propose to create the exact situation that I feared the most.  I can only imagine it is ignorance of my emotional needs, or the capacity for immense cruelty.  I know she is self-protecting, against her own pain inside, but how can she not see that she is torturing me?
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« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2019, 12:15:32 PM »

If I did decide to pursue a divorce I can't imagine the rage and cruelty that would emerge.  The cruelty that came out while she was still "loving" me was the most atrocious thing I have ever endured, but she has told me how bad things would be if I ever left her, cheated on her, or basically did anything that she determined was a "crime against her soul"  which could really be whatever she decides it to be.

So I guess that's why I'm still in the relationship.  It's like if someone stabs you repeatedly, but tells you if you move away to avoid the knife going into you, that this is an indication that you do not love them, and then they will cut off your head.  You believe them because of what you have seen them do in the past.  Their behavior indicates that they have no limitation on how much pain they are willing to inflict.  Your gut tells you that it is incomprehensible that a person would be willing to make another person suffer like that, but there it is in front of you, so you know they have the capacity to follow through.  They have learned that emotional cruelty is much more powerful than physical, and leaves no outwardly noticeable injuries, so emotional torture is the tool of choice. 

No one on the entire planet believes that they could be capable of such cruel behavior, only you.  You are the sole witness to your own self-destruction.

The one "truth" that you can never seem to shake is the knowledge that somehow your actions caused them to do this to you.  You are not perfect and have done things that were not nice, so the things you did must be worse that you thought.  That doesn't seem possible, but yet it is an absolute truth that you can't seem to deny.  So you accept that their truth is the only truth, because you can't bear the thought of your head being chopped off.
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« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2019, 09:47:09 PM »

Staff only

This thread has reached the posting limit and is now locked. Part 2 can be found here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338178.msg13064192#msg13064192
« Last Edit: July 19, 2019, 12:08:26 AM by I Am Redeemed, Reason: added link to OP from which this thread was split » Logged

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