Part 2 Enemy at the gate

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=337708.30

If he invests a large sum of money in the house he will be less likely to divorce fearing having to divide assets.  This will keep him in line?

I agree with what Enabler wrote so well.   This will teach Hubby that threatening divorce and pressuring Snowglobe will get him what he wants.

I also agree he will try harder to get back the power he feels he lost.

If Snowglobe gets her resume out there and finds employment that would be a step to removing the financial pressure.

Addressing only the financial pressure isn't what this website is ideally suited for.     Building healthier relationship between people is the charter.

Ducks,
Let’s explore the last sentence. In your opinion, is there a chance for healthier relationships here?

[snowglobe]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=337708.30

If he invests a large sum of money in the house he will be less likely to divorce fearing having to divide assets.  This will keep him in line?

I agree with what Enabler wrote so well.   This will teach Hubby that threatening divorce and pressuring Snowglobe will get him what he wants.

I also agree he will try harder to get back the power he feels he lost.

If Snowglobe gets her resume out there and finds employment that would be a step to removing the financial pressure.

Addressing only the financial pressure isn't what this website is ideally suited for.     Building healthier relationship between people is the charter.

Ducks,
Let’s explore the last sentence. In your opinion, is there a chance for healthier relationships here?

[formflier]

I think we are properly outlining the issues here.  What I think might be missing is a common understanding that the issues are exclusive or "competing".  Said plainly...I think it is possible to attain/achieve one issue/goal.

Snowglobe (and I am not saying you are wrong here as this might be 'fair' in the legal sense) wants to be in a position where her 'fair' share of the assets are visible should a divorce happen... the question then rises should the board be spending time helping attain 'fair' or 'sufficient' as a bar... want and need!

I'm going to "agree with Enabler but add some nuance.  If the "primary" goal is to get assets visible for a divorce...then this is likely a good course of action.

The "cost" of doing this is lack of access/control of mental health and health care for Snowglobe and her children.

If Snowglobes primary purpose is to be properly set up for a divorce, then I would suggest she explicitly state that so we can change our focus.  I'm positive I haven't thought through my advice to her based on this perspective.  

 Like others I do not agree with this assumption. If he feels he has lost power, I believe that he will make even more effort to regain power. The conflict will increase not decrease. Also distress tolerance is pretty central to BPD, a larger more expensive property = more financial stress to maintain that standard of living... = more dysregulation.

I agree with Enabler.  

I would add that it is very likely he will start "blaming" Snowglobe for this massive new house and "loss" of his bitcoin.  

I don't see this as a route to stabilise the relationship, I see this as destined result in the end of the relationship but with greater access to the money pot.
 

Agree...we really need to know which one of these Snowglobe wants to focus on.  

FF

[formflier]

If Snowglobe gets her resume out there and finds employment that would be a step to removing the financial pressure.

Addressing only the financial pressure isn't what this website is ideally suited for.     Building healthier relationship between people is the charter.

I agree that resume/employment will help.  I also think that a large chunk of money that Snowglobe controls independently of her hubby will also help. 

The nuance here is that on of her hubby's primary tools for a dysfunctional relationship is financial control.  Removing that tool from her hubby is likely to result in a healthier relationship in this case.

I'm not saying it will solve all the problems.  I think it may address "most" of the problems, because Snowglobe will not "have to" worry about threats coming true..since she has her own finances.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

Is there a chance for a healthier relationship here?

I'll give you the only answer I know:

I don't know.
 
The only chance I can think of, if there is any chance, is if you, Snowglobe, get emotionally healthier and take steps to stop engaging in dysfunction. You both do your part in this and each is reinforcing the other person's dysfunctional behavior.

Why you? Why not him? Because you are the one who wants this. You can only control yourself. Trying to control him is more dysfunction. To start to stop the dysfunction, you have to work on stopping your part in this.

Here is the chance part: when you change your part in this, it will temporarily change the dynamics between you two. This will result in both of you feeling uncomfortable. You are breaking familiar patterns, patterns that manage your fears and also meet his needs. But the cost of these patterns is your unhappiness. For the changes to continue, you will have to manage your own discomfort and fears. He will also need to be left to manage his discomfort. You can not manage him with soothing- massage or whatever you have done to calm him down.

Now, the ball is in his court. This is scary. Either he is invested enough in your marriage to stick it out or not. He's going to try what has worked for him before to get you to soothe him and get his way. You will need to stay with your plan. He may escalate. He may go off the rails. He may even leave.

But he also may realize he is invested in the marriage and family and begin to try new, more emotionally healthy behaviors. He may need mental health treatment, he may need drug rehab, but at this point- if he is doing it because he chooses to, not because you have manipulated him into it- it has a chance, of being effective.

There may be a chance of this becoming healthier and maybe not, but from all I know, this is the only direction to take to find out. It involves risk, and it is scary. The choice to do this, or continue with what is familiar to you, is up to you.

[formflier]

 
The only chance I can think of, if there is any chance, is if you, Snowglobe, get emotionally healthier and take steps to stop engaging in dysfunction.  

Yes yes..double and triple yes!

A step that snowglobe can take without asking her husbands permission is to remove his financial control over her.  

Yet it appears she has chosen NOT to do this and instead sign up for another luxury house with him which will ensure his continued financial control over her  I don't see the relationship changing for the better if she participates in buying a new home.

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

Ducks,
Let’s explore the last sentence. In your opinion, is there a chance for healthier relationships here?

As simply as I can put it;  only if you change.

Only if you change your coping skills and relationships tools.

He might never change.    But a relationship is 50/50.  You can improve your part.

[Enabler]

The only way to stabilise the relationship is to forget about power and control, disarm divorce threats by being prepared to keep a divorce threat live or say "fine", accept him where he is for who he is and how he is.

He is power / money hungry. He cares about status, and I think you do too. There is a tug-o-war going on regarding who has the power, who has control how that power is wielded. You could probably resolve all conflict over night by being completely subservient, agree to everything and roll with whatever decisions your H decides for the family. There is no conflict if you agree to everything he says. But I don't think you're like that. You're not able/willing to turn a blind eye to drug taking, using prostitutes, him 'investing' all your families wealth in bitcoin, making decisions about where you live and how you live... you want some element of control. You care about what is fair and not fair.

What if you got yourself to a position where he had to actually choose whether or not he was with you? What if you chose a path you wanted and he chose whether or not he followed. That's not so much wielding power and control over someone else... it's wielding power and control over yourself. Financially I'm pretty sure you're going to be okay either way. Being prepared to accept the consequences of all outcomes is the starting point. Probably a poorly worded quote but something like "It's only when you accept you're dead you can start living."

Enabler    

[snowglobe]

We are back to the ghost situation, whenever he sees me, he looks right past me, which triggers some pain receptors in my brain. Being invisible, ignored, not valued is hurting a lot. This is excruciating form of emotional abuse for me As a codependent. It adds the insult to the injury of his breaking his promise on purchase of the home. I am angry and I want to fight. I want to draw blood and cause him emotional pain. So I retreat and do the opposite action- household chores, preparing for the phone interview for my resume, arranging play date for the children, enrolling daughter in summer school. I avoid seeing him which is painful, when I approach and he either lashes out or ignores me, neither bring me to the desired emotional connection. By now I’m starting to doubt if we have any. I’m a form of providing services such as listening, validating, agreeing, cooking, entertaining, massaging and soothing, providing sexual services upon request. There is never a moment when he comes and wants to do something for me, such as back rub, going on a date just the two of us, having a deep emotional conversation.
I know that all of you told me before- dynamics won’t change until I change it. The problem is, he isn’t motivated or capable in my opinion to change. So I’m starting to accept the fact that I may never have another home with him, that I may never reach those things such a stability I crave, with him. My knees are shaking and I’m scared near deathly, but I will finish this course, complete my resume and start applying for a job. I accept that he may leave because he is not invested.

[formflier]

I know that all of you told me before- dynamics won’t change until I change it. The problem is, he isn’t motivated or capable in my opinion to change. 

No Snowglobe....that's not the problem.

As long as you see him as the problem...they dynamic won't change.

If you change...he will have no choice but to change.  Once I understood that dynamic...I was able to improve and by extension my relationship improved.

Please reflect back what you have heard in this post.

Best,

FF

[snowglobe]

Detaching and stonewalling him is a mistake, or is it not? When he is ignoring me and looking through me, how does it help to resolve our inner conflict?

[snowglobe]

No Snowglobe....that's not the problem.

As long as you see him as the problem...they dynamic won't change.

If you change...he will have no choice but to change.  Once I understood that dynamic...I was able to improve and by extension my relationship improved.

Please reflect back what you have heard in this post.

Best,

FF

Take my half and start healing myself and the kids? Change my value system to put mine and theirs well being above my financial security. Work on myself and start supporting myself. If I remove the financial aspect, he may act nice or choose another drama source to connect with. Either way it’s hopeless and depressing. I see no win situation for me

[Notwendy]

When he is ignoring you - go on with your day and your plans. You have yourself to take care of and your kids- no matter what mood he is in.

Don't react either way. If he speaks to you ,speak back. If he ignores you- let him be. Don't coerce, bed, massage- just let him be.

You may be feeling intense discomfort- but you will not perish if he doesn't speak to you for a while. Let him be.

When you change the dynamics- he then has the choice to change but the other choice is not to change. But doing what you are doing is likely to keep the same dynamics.

At some point we decide, once we make changes, if this is getting better or worse, if change is possible or not. But the best part about us learning better relationship skills is we keep them. They make us better either way. Even if the marriage doesn't make it, you will still be a better you. The work is actually an investment in you.

[formflier]

 start healing myself and the kids?  

Either way it’s hopeless and depressing. I see no win situation for me

This is what I don't understand...please help me with this.

How is healing yourself and the kids a no win situation...or part of a no win situation?

FF

[Enabler]

Is your H the only person in the entire world (including yourself) that is capable of generating situations and environments that give you feeling of happiness?

What if there was another source of happiness that didn't involve him... at all? (and no, I am not advocating an affair)

What is hopeless?

[snowglobe]

This is what I don't understand...please help me with this.

How is healing yourself and the kids a no win situation...or part of a no win situation?

FF

Healing them won’t happen, he will not part with his money to pay for their therapy and I won’t be able to provide that since I will be busy making the ends meet. I won’t be happy, in fact I’m already resentful and want to bury him. I need to hurt him to feel better. If he moves on being happy, how will it help MY HEALING? Past 19 years building him from unemployed loser with bankruptcy to now rich, sophisticated man. He will go and throw all his resources at some whores while my kids suffer in poverty. Poverty= reduced opportunity. If I go down, I will take him down with me.

[snowglobe]

Is your H the only person in the entire world (including yourself) that is capable of generating situations and environments that give you feeling of happiness?

What if there was another source of happiness that didn't involve him... at all? (and no, I am not advocating an affair)

What is hopeless?

Enabler, I’m loosing a will to live, period

[Enabler]

Do you want revenge? Watch 'Gone Girl'

Do you want peace? Come here

[Notwendy]

If I go down, I will take him down with me.


This will not end well for you.

When either of you are in victim mode, you lose perspective and conscience. You may not care in the moment, but actions have consequences.

In addition, the two of you may not have the same moral yardstick.

Money is not insignificant , but it is in just that. By continuously going for the money - which he controls- you are compromising other things you value. Is it worth it to you?

So long as it is, you will continue on this same path which is self destructive because your H doesn't play by the same rules as you. He's willing to hurt your kids and you are not. And he's willing to physically hurt you because he's done it.

A couple of things here:

When you lie down with dogs, you get fleas.

Joining a disordered person in their fight is like p*ssing in the wind. It's going to all fly back at you, and more.

[formflier]

Healing them won’t happen, he will not part with his money to pay for their therapy and I won’t be able to provide that since I will be busy making the ends meet.  

This is FALSE...FALSE...magical thinking.

If you have the money...he won't have to part with the money.

Please take a walk and do some deep breathing.  You see "no win" situations because those are what YOU are creating in your mind and ignoring reality in the process.

You have a choice to have your own money.  Keep it simple.

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

Your future happiness and success only relies on him as much as you let it.

You happiness,  future,  health,  success and wealth is not impossibly linked to him.

I know this is a painful concept for you to wrestle with.

Breaking the dependence on him won't be easy.   It is possible.

[Cat Familiar]

The title you chose reflects the concept that you are embroiled in a war with him.

You can choose freedom for yourself by taking half the proceeds of the house sale, which I would imagine to be substantial, since you are looking at luxury properties as an upgrade.

Or you can choose warfare with him, trying to extract hidden assets.

In the past, you’ve been offended when he has labeled you money hungry. At this point, you can either choose independence from his manipulations or you can choose to confirm his suspicions.

What price are you prepared to pay emotionally (and possibly physically) to fight for those hidden assets? He’s shown you who he is, yet you still harbor thoughts that you can manipulate him into being different.

[snowglobe]

The title you chose reflects the concept that you are embroiled in a war with him.

You can choose freedom for yourself by taking half the proceeds of the house sale, which I would imagine to be substantial, since you are looking at luxury properties as an upgrade.

Or you can choose warfare with him, trying to extract hidden assets.

In the past, you’ve been offended when he has labeled you money hungry. At this point, you can either choose independence from his manipulations or you can choose to confirm his suspicions.

What price are you prepared to pay emotionally (and possibly physically) to fight for those hidden assets? He’s shown you who he is, yet you still harbor thoughts that you can manipulate him into being different.

Cat, with a half from the proceeds I can buy a small townhouse. It’s more then the financial aspect, it’s the fact that the person I trusted my life with and our well being had deceived me. The hurt and anger is like a fire that has been eating at my soul. If he ever came to me saying : I want to sell the house, and this is what I plan doing with the money, at least it would have been honest. But this manipulative tactic is eating and corroding our relationships 

[snowglobe]

Your future happiness and success only relies on him as much as you let it.

You happiness,  future,  health,  success and wealth is not impossibly linked to him.

I know this is a painful concept for you to wrestle with.

Breaking the dependence on him won't be easy.   It is possible.

Ducks, I never developed that, being happy on my own. In fact, I was severely punished first by my mother then by ubpdh for being happy without permission or when they felt bad. When and if I dared to be happy as a teen, I was severely beaten and punished by taking any privileges away. It’s kind of similar with unpdh. If he is down, he needs to make my life miserable.

[Enabler]

Ducks, I never developed that, being happy on my own. In fact, I was severely punished first by my mother then by ubpdh for being happy without permission or when they felt bad. When and if I dared to be happy as a teen, I was severely beaten and punished by taking any privileges away. It’s kind of similar with unpdh. If he is down, he needs to make my life miserable.

That was then, this is now. You were a child the , you are an adult now. As much as we would all like to see adult behavioural development in our pwBPD, development which would allow them to self soothe their own emotions and control them somewhat... well what better place to start with that behavioural development... yourself! Yes, I did say that out loud.

I recently went on a trip to a rural area of the UK to go walking on my own, camp on my own, be on my own. It was bliss. I’m happy in my own skin... yay me! 

Get to know you, get to like you, get to love you. You might probably rock. The people whom I have the most admiration for are those with very little. Not necessarily the mother Theresa types, more the surfers, rock climbers, snowboarders... the bums who love what they do and don’t want the trappings on material stuff... it’s just them and the rock face, them and the wave, them and the powder. Happiness doesn’t come from material possessions, it comes from within.

I have a feeling you’re pretty cool, I’m pretty sure you have an inner being that once discovered will be dang awesome. It’s on there you just need to find it.

Have you ever thought about going on a back country survival course... it’s canada, there’s plenty of it. Realise what you actually NEED and maybe you’ll get some perspective on your reality. I almost guarantee you will hate it for the first few days, but suspect you will love it by the end.

Enabler 

[snowglobe]

That was then, this is now. You were a child the , you are an adult now. As much as we would all like to see adult behavioural development in our pwBPD, development which would allow them to self soothe their own emotions and control them somewhat... well what better place to start with that behavioural development... yourself! Yes, I did say that out loud.

I recently went on a trip to a rural area of the UK to go walking on my own, camp on my own, be on my own. It was bliss. I’m happy in my own skin... yay me! 

Get to know you, get to like you, get to love you. You might probably rock. The people whom I have the most admiration for are those with very little. Not necessarily the mother Theresa types, more the surfers, rock climbers, snowboarders... the bums who love what they do and don’t want the trappings on material stuff... it’s just them and the rock face, them and the wave, them and the powder. Happiness doesn’t come from material possessions, it comes from within.

I have a feeling you’re pretty cool, I’m pretty sure you have an inner being that once discovered will be dang awesome. It’s on there you just need to find it.

Have you ever thought about going on a back country survival course... it’s canada, there’s plenty of it. Realise what you actually NEED and maybe you’ll get some perspective on your reality. I almost guarantee you will hate it for the first few days, but suspect you will love it by the end.

Enabler 

That was then, this is now. You were a child the , you are an adult now. As much as we would all like to see adult behavioural development in our pwBPD, development which would allow them to self soothe their own emotions and control them somewhat... well what better place to start with that behavioural development... yourself! Yes, I did say that out loud.

I recently went on a trip to a rural area of the UK to go walking on my own, camp on my own, be on my own. It was bliss. I’m happy in my own skin... yay me! 

Get to know you, get to like you, get to love you. You might probably rock. The people whom I have the most admiration for are those with very little. Not necessarily the mother Theresa types, more the surfers, rock climbers, snowboarders... the bums who love what they do and don’t want the trappings on material stuff... it’s just them and the rock face, them and the wave, them and the powder. Happiness doesn’t come from material possessions, it comes from within.

I have a feeling you’re pretty cool, I’m pretty sure you have an inner being that once discovered will be dang awesome. It’s on there you just need to find it.

Have you ever thought about going on a back country survival course... it’s canada, there’s plenty of it. Realise what you actually NEED and maybe you’ll get some perspective on your reality. I almost guarantee you will hate it for the first few days, but suspect you will love it by the end.

Enabler 

Enabler, from the deepest parts of my souls I want to thank you and tell you that your words are like a warm hug I needed. I just spoke to my friend who tried to straighten me out on want vs need situation. She was telling me that no one owes me anything, and I need to take necessary developmental steps to protect me, love me, financially support me. I can’t make another person, let alone with personality disorder do that for me. She was kind, gentle but firm about walking away and focusing on me. She asked me to let go of the hurt, anger and resentment and realize that if I believe he did the best he could, instead of what he doesn’t want to give I can let go with gratitude. I should not poison my kids heart about their dad. In fact, I should protect them from his reality, as he won’t do that. It was such a beautiful moment, supported by your encouraging words that I started melting away. This thick layer of ice and pain, combined with expectation to do right by me melted away. I feel like there is a purpose to what I’m experiencing. This purpose is to face my worst fears. With these worst fears I came to this board. I’m now living through it, and I am still breathing. If I come out on the other side, like my son’s disability it will make me stronger, louder, more determined, resourceful and most importantly loving. I choose me. I choose life. I choose to make love to someone. I choose to wake up to someone smiling and caring about my wishes and well being. I choose to support and love me, my body, with all its scars and pains. I choose to help someone to be the best version of them and get joy from doing that. I choose honest communication. Ubpdh did his best, he gave me my two purposes for keep going. Perhaps when the time is right I will take that trip on my own, not today. Today I will be kind to my children, study hard and try to get some sleep. I don’t see the big picture yet, but it’s a phase that is meant to be here. I don’t want to fight my reality, as it’s just what it is. Ubpdh isn’t my enemy, he is my teacher. Who forced me to grow in more ways I could imagine. It’s part of my emotional growth and maturity. Baby birds don’t want to fly, they are comfortable sitting in their warm nest, yet when the time comes, their parents throw them out of their nests, so they can learn to fly. This house is that throwing out of the comfortable nest. Hopefully once the pain subsides I will be able to look back and reflect with gratitude to keep the love I once had for him alive for the children. I can never call my life with him a mistake, because they aren’t a mistake, but a purpose.

[boatingwoman]

(Just adding this irrelevant info: standard RE commission is 7% (each realtor gets 3.5%) and I have never heard of an agent working on reduced commission...)

[formflier]

(Just adding this irrelevant info: standard RE commission is 7% (each realtor gets 3.5%) and I have never heard of an agent working on reduced commission...)

The only places I've ever heard this happened at are "low service/low fee" places.  Where you get in MLS but don't get other services from a realtor.

It's rare that full service realtors will cut their fee.  The ones I'm aware of have been much later in the process.

FF

[GaGrl]

I want to go back to the question of legal advice. Snowglobe, you have said you are secure in the advice that proceeds from the sale of your current house would be placed in a trust that could only be released with both signatures.

I am confused how you will get your 50% of the funds unless you and your husband agree to have two separate checks or wire transfers sent to accounts in separate names.

Please explain to us how you anticipate actually receiving 50% of the profits from the sale of your house, barring a court order to hold it in escrow pending divorce settlement.

[snowglobe]

I want to go back to the question of legal advice. Snowglobe, you have said you are secure in the advice that proceeds from the sale of your current house would be placed in a trust that could only be released with both signatures.

I am confused how you will get your 50% of the funds unless you and your husband agree to have two separate checks or wire transfers sent to accounts in separate names.

Please explain to us how you anticipate actually receiving 50% of the profits from the sale of your house, barring a court order to hold it in escrow pending divorce settlement.

The last sentence is what is going to happen according to the laws in our country. I’m hoping that Ubpdh will agree to that prior to it being finalized. If not, upon the court ruling it will be decided.

[Enabler]

Sounds like some wise words from your friend. Your anger can help you achieve tough things... but holding on to it will ultimately damage you.

[snowglobe]

I keep on waking up at 4 am every day. Blissful sleep, the only luxury I could afford is gone. I wake up with a shaking dread, fists tightened, being propelled with fear, anger and hurt. I go to sleep easily from all of the events during the day. It’s day three that ubpdh called me names and told me to get out of his face. He has been avoiding me, coming home late and only going to the bedroom to change. He has been sleeping on the couch. I don’t come out from the bedroom, when I do, I can’t wrestle with the similar feelings, hurt, anger and betrayal. I start shaking and begin to fear loosing control and starting an ugly insult fight, so I immediately leave. We communicate via email or text, curt, concise and precisely to the point. Kids, business and car is all we communicate about. I saw my friends last night briefly, who had helped me by taking my youngest so I can process emotions without him being exposed. Everyone is encouraging me to keep emotions in check as to not scare or scar the kids. I’m doing my best, but all I really wanted to do is to yell at his face “you had deceived me you manipulating a$$hole, I curse the day you were born”. With a strong power of will I stay quiet and carry on with my tasks. I feel completely handicapped by my emotions. I am not for me, or for my children. I feel simultaneously guilty for abandoning them, for putting their future at risk by complying with ubpdh’s demand for the sale. I feel shattered that he broke this trust. Vengeance is a terrible things to be carrying around with me. I want to accept, forgive and move forward. I feel like I’m sinking to the bottom of the ocean. Ubpdh is refusing to talk, let alone discuss options such as getting out of the biding selling contract by paying the buyer compensation. I constantly experience a feeling like someone is standing on my chest and I can’t take a full breath. I feel like I’m going crazy. I want to run away, or go to the hospital to take this constant emotional pain away. I’m afraid if I do check myself in into a mental hospital I will loose the children. How could a person live all the while knowing that he is causing so much pain to his family? Similar to psychopaths he doesn’t have a consciousness or empathy.  

[Cat Familiar]

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