This is an opinion for those who feel conflicted. You have free will

[Jareth89]

Mod note: This discussion was split from the following thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=337846.0

I have to be honest with the men here, if your wife (bpd or traits) is causing you to turn against your own family,  making you choose between her and your family, isolating you or your grandchildren from your FOO, hating on your siblings, causing your FOO to be split down the middle and argue with each other because some can see the truth, some can't and some don't want to...then please for god's sake (and this is not an advice to stay or leave   ) use your god-given balls, be a man and give this woman the medicine she desperately needs...abandon her ass...don't let your FOO suffer. Good families who spent a lifetime and sacrifices building that structure are being torn apart for one disordered person. That is unforgivable, please come to your senses and quickly. There is opportunity and life out there that brings happiness. You are worth it and a good woman will appreciate you. Make the tough decision (the tough one is the right one, the easy one means you took the path of least resistance = trouble) and you will reap the rewards for making the right choice. This is an opinion for those who feel conflicted. You have free will.

[formflier]

Hey Jareth89

Exiting certainly is one way to solve it and may be the only way..depending on severity of what they are doing.

I would certainly advise first disengaging.  If only the pwBPD is trying to fight and split people up..they will soon wear out and likely quit it.

Many times the dysfunctional things they do (such as dividing families) is not about "dividing families"..it's because they have figured out in a dysfunctional way they can  get attention that way.  Remove the "attention".."energy"..whatever you want to call it and many times (most) it will stop.

What do you think?

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

Jareth89- I love this response and am glad the mods kept it. I love it because it expresses how those of us- the family members who love our relatives who are wrapped up in relationships that separate them from us feel along with a whole lot of hurt feelings that take a long time to deal with, possible forever. I think it's important for them to know that.

I have  used almost these exact words when talking about my father. Why did he put up with this? But confronting him with my questions are what got me dismissed, not my BPD mother.


Your questions have taken me on a path to understand the dynamics of his relationship better,  not just about him, but for me for many reasons: to cope with the hurt feelings, to understand the patterns in my family that I grew up with, and also to break this cycle of dysfunction because it can be learned in families and then reenacted in the next generation. I don't want to do this.

I've learned that the answer isn't just about the offending person. It's about the patterns between them. In some situations, asking the person to toss the pwBPD out would be like asking an alcoholic- why don't you just throw out all your beer bottles and stop drinking now. You know how effective this is- it isn't. The alcoholic needs to decide that he's (using he for convenience, it could be she and the genders of either partner could be he or she) had enough and wants to change- but then he needs a plan to change and support to change. The principle and patterns are similar in ways to BPD couples.

[Notwendy]

It also may not be necessary to dissolve the relationship. An alcoholic has to abstain from all alcohol. But in some relationships, learning to maintain boundaries has helped some of the conflict resolve.

There are many other reasons people don't leave- finances, children and lastly they still care about the other person. However, they can learn to stand up for themselves and their right to their relationships with their families. This isn't an easy path either.

If this is an issue, starting with learning to maintain boundaries can be a first step- regardless of how the relationship goes.

And I know how you feel. I loved my father and it wasn't fair to his kids or his family of origin that BPDmom interfered with these relationships. My family was split in many ways due to the drama she stirred up. But the other side of it is the people who participated with it by enabling her. It's not just about the person with BPD.

[Jareth89]

Hey Jareth89

Exiting certainly is one way to solve it and may be the only way..depending on severity of what they are doing.

I would certainly advise first disengaging.  If only the pwBPD is trying to fight and split people up..they will soon wear out and likely quit it.

Many times the dysfunctional things they do (such as dividing families) is not about "dividing families"..it's because they have figured out in a dysfunctional way they can  get attention that way.  Remove the "attention".."energy"..whatever you want to call it and many times (most) it will stop.

What do you think?

Best,

FF

What I see a lot of people doing here is trying to understand the psychology behind the actions the bpd takes.  It can be interesting to understand the psychology behind the actions (if you know 100% what the psychology is) but the outcome is the same - the bpd divided the family. It's the outcome that is damaging whether the person has a disorder or not. We can understand the psychology of a psychopath but what difference does that really make to the outcome? None.

The psychology you need to know about is relationship attraction and being able to identify damaging people, attachment theory, what a healthy relationship should look like (what is a psychologically healthy man, woman) and find out what your own weaknesses are and what factors influenced that and whether there are features you need to improve on.

[formflier]

I don't disagree with anything you said. 

I would like to add another option.

It all depends on what you "do" with this newfound knowledge.  (and yes.."running".."leaving" is a valid an often appropriate choice)

What I've done in my relationship is deciding that I'm going to view my wife (my pwBPD) as "speaking a different language" and "having a different culture.  (even though, at first glance we appear to speak the same and be the same)

So...I really wanted to understand what her language means how she often interprets things.  Even better if I can understand "why" she came to be that way.

In my case she was told she was wrong for most of her childhood.  So...a "core injury" for her is an inability to be "wrong". 

So...I take that knowledge and put a great deal of effort into speaking to her in ways that don't communicate "wrong"...yet perhaps accomplish the same things.

Also...many things that "help" a relationship with a pwBPD are "counter-intuitive". 

What do you think?

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

What I see a lot of people doing here is trying to understand the psychology behind the actions the bpd takes.  It can be interesting to understand the psychology behind the actions (if you know 100% what the psychology is) but the outcome is the same - the bpd divided the family.

It's actually not the same, at least not in my own experience.

We've had more family divisions when I confronted my BPD mother and her issues straight on as a third party in the relationship. This put her into victim mode and in her vengeful state, she caused a lot of damage to people's relationships with me.

Knowing how to deal with her gives me more access to my family members than if I confront her or confront them about her issues, trying to get them to "see the light" ie see it my way.

I've attended a lot of 12 step groups where there are family members in a similar situation. Doesn't matter if our loved ones are in a dysfunctional relationship, or drug addicts, or alcoholics. The approach you think is right unfortunately doesn't work very well.

This isn't about game playing, or learning to better my own relationships. It's about how to relate more effectively with people who have BPD if they are someone close to us.

Your brother is a grown man. He is able to take care of himself. He made the choice to be with this person and only he can make the choice to change that. If he wants to be with her, and you want to have a relationship with him, you will need to know how best to relate to them. On the other hand, if you are willing to let go of your relationship with him and speak your mind, then you can do that.

[Jareth89]

Notwendy, I have always been very generous, accommodating and welcoming to my sister-in-law and my family absolutely bends over backwards for them in terms of working on their property and generally making life great for them in ways that other families wouldn't probably (in terms of effort). However my sil still needs to create problems and distortions. My point was that her behaviour exists even when there are no provocations. So while I agree that understanding the psychology of BPD enables you to interact with this person by avoiding triggering them, in my experience it still does not remove the desire for the bpd to create problems. What I also meant was that I see people trying to rationalise the bpd's actions with the psychology, it doesn't change the outcome.

Family members look out for each other, especially when they know something is amiss. That's a healthy moral principle to have in families, I don't think anyone could disagree. My brother is a grown man but with this woman he is unquestionably in danger. Her behaviour was not like this in the beginning, it has 'blossomed'. There are many cases online from men where they say they only noticed pronounced troublesome behaviour after marriage, or after children or after x years of being together. When this illness finally presents itself in recognisable form, there is bound to be a reaction from the family. It is a shock for everyone. I disagree that he is able to take care of himself...I can't avert my gaze from clear emotional abuse. I always speak my mind to my brother, always have always will.

My brother made a choice to be with this woman when she was not showing the symptoms she has now
So the situation is very different. Although I can appreciate all scenarios and I have read many cases, I don't think I should evaluate whether to 'tell the truth' on an assumption that I will lose him if I do so. I think this is much less likely to happen if I speak to him rather than her. I can also warn him of the potential danger of telling her (isolation), but at least he will be able to consider for himself whether his wife has this condition once I have made the suggestion. I do appreciate your input and the decision is difficult.

An interesting question might be, if the man observes the behaviour of his wife and does see it as being abnormal but doesn't realise it's a recognised disorder/mental health condition with a name, then does informing him that she has a mental health condition and giving him the opportunity to access that information, change his perspective/options?

[formflier]

Your brother is lucky to have you in his corner!     

I would like to invite you to evaluate this from a different point of view.  

My point was that her behaviour exists even when there are no provocations.

I 100% agree...1000% if that were possible.  It's not about learning to avoid triggering them.  To me that seems like learning to "walk on eggshells" better.  I don't think this is what anyone is suggesting.

The point I would like everyone to focus on is the "dynamic"...

pwBPD is triggered

non reacts...pwBPD reacts...non reacts...pwBPD reacts  (then eventually KABOOM)  

If you can get to a point where pwBPD is triggers...non "responds" in a healthy way...pwBPD eventually gets back to baseline...(in the meantime the non goes on about their life).

Said another way...it's important not to add fuel to a triggered pwBPD.

So while I agree that understanding the psychology of BPD enables you to interact with this person by avoiding triggering them, in my experience it still does not remove the desire for the bpd to create problems.

If the focus is on the pwBPD...and their desires, that's a loosing starting point.  It's not about creating a "clean environment with no triggers"

What I also meant was that I see people trying to rationalise the bpd's actions with the psychology, it doesn't change the outcome.

Changing outcomes is a big part of what we are about here.  If two people are in a "dysfunctional dance" that results in a certain outcome and then one person changes their part of the dance...how can the outcome not change?

There is hope in that question/message.  That's because the "non" has power over the situation..even if the pwBPD says NO.

Ponder that for a bit.

What do you think?

Best,

FF
 

[Notwendy]

I’m only sharing my experience of what happened in my family. I don’t disagree with your reasoning. All of us here can only advise from our own experience.

If what I say doesn’t seem right to you - then by all means do what you think is the right thing to do. Please come back and share how it works out. It’s always good to add to the pool of experience here.

[formflier]

And...


The more you can narrow down where what you hearing seems "off"...or what doesn't seem to fit, the better chance we can guide you to someone or an article that directly addresses that particular issue.

When you think about all the combinations of BPD traits and then add in the possibility of "comorbid" other things, there can be big differences in how these things play out.

I hope you don't hear me saying you are wrong...I do hope you hear me saying examining this from many different point of views is going to help you help your family.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

To summarize what I think FF is saying...
When the BPD tosses the rope to play "tug of war" with you, don't pick up the rope. That was advice from my T who has helped me with a better way in communicating with my uBPDxw when she attempts to create conflict.

Absolutely! That's the basics. Then there is important nuance to add.

Don't "fight with them on the way out"...in other words...don't take a parting shot and abandon them.

Usually it's much better for them to "feel heard" (usually briefly) and then either kick the can down the road, validate or perhaps SET.

It's also a place for you to express genuine shock and concern (vice trying to "act" or be neutral).

pwBPD  "blah blah blah...you hate me and had a threesome last night with the pink unicorn AND that new purple gorilla"

the shocked non..  "Oh...goodness mercy.  This seems important to you...let me go get us some coffee and I'll be right back.."

This will give some time and space.  It will allow the non to begin thinking how to "respond".  

Remember, it's not about unicorns, gorrillas or threesomes..it's about inflamed (hurt) emotions.

If the pwBPD can stay somewhat reasonable...listen, validate..work with the situation and try to build a bridge to them.

If the dysregulation deepens it's BOUNDARY time...exit the situation..let them know you are taking a break and will be back, then let the "fire" burn itself out.  

Your job isn't to put the fire out.   Your job IS to (as much as it depends on you)..not add fuel.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

What if your parents doing work on their property made her feel ashamed? Ashamed because she had to rely on outside help.

You may not think of that as provocative but she might?

Understanding the psychology gives you a window into the different way pwBPD process things... in ways you couldn’t imagine.

[Jareth89]

What if your parents doing work on their property made her feel ashamed? Ashamed because she had to rely on outside help.

You may not think of that as provocative but she might?

Understanding the psychology gives you a window into the different way pwBPD process things... in ways you couldn’t imagine.

EnablerShe doesn't feel ashamed, she is egocentric and entitled and only thinks about her needs. Her parents are the same, it makes me feel ill. While my brother and my father were working incredibly hard making their garden spectacular last year, all that bothered her was the fact she had to go to her parents house with her son at the weekend so there were no distractions at the house and they could get on with the work. She obviously felt abandoned but she knew and could see for herself why it had to be done. There were no great thanks to my father for what he had done, it was just expected. Her parents also didn't show their appreciation for the work my father did. Whatever emotions their daughter is experiencing, her parents just go along with it and support her distorted views and reactions. They turn a blind eye to her own flaws and irrational logic. So in order to protect my family, our values and our future, i'm having to contend with her daughter and her parents who jump to her side no matter what. It's a controlling unit of 3 people influencing my brother. That's a really difficult scenario. God knows how confused and smothered he must be feeling. Yet his emotional ties (and weaknesses) will prevent him from looking at this situation with some cold hard logic. I really do think that if you leave someone brainwashed long enough and if the brainwashing is being reinforced by 2 other adults (parents) then this is a dangerous situation that someone will not come out of. She didn't marry into my family, she just took my brother and honestly it's a deception because the mental illness was there all along, she just had it under control. Maybe she knows and already has a diagnosis but kept it secret? Personally I think it's very possible. She did say on her wedding day (some friction was caused with preparations) 'there's method in the madness'.

Enabler  In my opinion, you can understand the psychology basics with this illness, but it's near impossible to know what she is thinking and what her thought processes are on everything. To know that, she would need to speak her mind. She never does, it's all a secret behind closed doors. It's part of what keeps her in control...by keeping everyone else in the dark.  There is no honesty, no openness and so there can be no trust. She consciously gathers information from her surroundings especially about my family and she uses this 'information' to manipulate and control everything in her sphere of influence. She ensures that flow of information is in one direction only. She is constantly strategising. Deeply disturbing, there can be no trust. It's not normal to want to spend your life wondering what the reasons are behind someone's actions/thought processes.

[formflier]

I'm still sorting out my thoughts and feelings about  all of this.  I'm wondering about two people that are involved in the same situation.  One of those people is "very emotional"...(on one end of the spectrum) and the other is "very logical" (on the far other end).

What kind of relationships and points of view do you think those people bring to the situation and how do you think they might interact?  Especially when there are disagreements

I've highlighted some things that jumped out at me...hopefully I'll have some more thoughts on those later.

What do you think about how those two people might "mix"?

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

She sounds similar to my mother, and your feelings are similar to how my father's family sound.

You may think the men on this board ( and your brother) need to "grow a pair" when it comes to BPD women. I will propose that the men on this board are the ones who are aware and are seeking to understand in order to make the decision to stay or leave. Then there are those like your brother who aren't looking. ( that we know of) and/or are choosing to turn a blind eye. I assume your brother is intelligent and capable of searching the internet too. My father was. So why isn't your brother seeking answers?

Denial is an aspect of these relationships and it can be at the extreme. He may not be searching because he doesn't want to know.

Divorce is a major decision and, it is understandable that a spouse would want to learn and try to make improvements before breaking up their family. Divorce is also expensive and if their are children involved, there are custody considerations. This doesn't mean divorce isn't the right decision for some- many have taken that step, but often after much thought and planning. Also if there are children involved, one doesn't completely eliminate the pwBPD from the family. They will need to relate to them, and so will other family members. In this case, it makes sense to learn how to better relate to someone with BPD whether one divorces them or not.

If your brother does not have children with this woman, a divorce is not as complicated. However, he may be deeply emotionally attached to her and leaving is difficult for him. He's not unusual in that the issues were not apparent when he married her. This is a common situation. PwBPD are very good at having a public persona and not allowing others to see behind this until the relationship is secure. Is this deceitful? I don't know. I think the motivation is at least in part a fear of abandonment, not malice- they don't show the worst of themselves unless the relationship is more secure.

What attracts us to others and others to us is complicated. Attractions are often not conscious and influenced by our original families. Your SIL's behavior may be disordered, but something about your brother finds her attractive, and she is also drawn to your brother. You don't share the same attraction parameters as him. You would not be attracted to someone like her ( male or female- they both can have BPD) and someone with BPD might not be attracted to you. You see her as the problem, the enemy, but your brother isn't just her brainwashed victim. He is there willingly too. I get your concern- I thought my father had some sort of Stockholm syndrome. He did get more enmeshed over time. The people here on this board are working to not be so enmeshed.

The premise for advising you to approach your brother carefully is not due to the concern he might cut off his relationship with you. This is simply proposing the possibility.  The premise for the advice is because direct confrontation isn't usually effective. If you want to be effective, then learning how to be as effective as possible makes sense. However, you know your brother best and if you want to take the direct route, you can take that route. All of us here are only sharing our experiences and you can take any advice in context of your family situation.

[formflier]

They celebrated their 5 yr wedding anniversary recently, and I noticed my brother's card said 'Thank you for all you do. Here's to another 5 more years'      In the back of his mind that comment means 'I hope I can take 5 more years of this, I think 5 is my limit'...a man in a happy marriage with no mental chains would say 'Here's to forever!'

Hey Jareth89

Is it possible that your brother might have just liked the symmetry of saying "here's to another 5...since they had just reached a 5 year milestone?

Can you clarify whether or not you actually said the words Skip and Harri are asking about?  I'm curious as well.


Best,

FF

[Jareth89]

Hey Jareth89
Is it possible that your brother might have just liked the symmetry of saying "here's to another 5...since they had just reached a 5 year milestone? Can you clarify whether or not you actually said the words Skip and Harri are asking about?  I'm curious as well.
Best, FF

In my post I said that I admonished him last year for his bad behaviour towards me and I told him about hers. I clarified that 'I didn't tell him to get a divorce, I didn't know about bpd at that moment'. This is in response to the question 'did I tell him to abandon her ass'. My advice to 'abandon her ass' at the beginning of this thread is given in the context of the bpd deciding to carry out actions mentioned in the first post. Yes I did tell him to be a man and grow a pair. Currently I have not spoken further to my brother about my sil actions, since I discovered recently she has bpd traits. About the '5 year', sure he could have liked the symmetry, but he also knows there is something wrong in his marriage. Just that logic (mine) tells me that it doesn't make sense to say something like that. After 1 year, would you say 'here's to another year?'. I wouldn't but that's just my take. Read what Zachira wrote. The man first has to take a stand against his wife's insane demands.

[Notwendy]

Yes, the man has to choose to take action. But who can make that choice- only he can. Telling him he needs to make that choice may or may not be effective. Zachira also wrote: Sometimes, you have to let the relationship run its course, and unfortunately sometimes the relationship never changes or ends, and then again there can be a better outcome like with what eventually happened with my cousin.


How can we best help you here? You have seen several suggestions, but remain firm in your belief that the morally righteous way is to be direct with your brother about his situation. Maybe it would help if you were to list the outcome you are seeking?

Is it ultimately to help your brother by trying to make him see the light so his wife gets therapy and things get better? For him to take on her behavior and defend you and his other family members from her abuse? For him to leave her?

Let's look at outcome here. A year ago you confronted him. It appeared he stopped the behavior that bothered you for a while, but the behaviors towards your brother and their child have continued with more secrecy around them. She now sees you as "against her" and your relationship with her is worse. The one benefit from admonishing your brother is that you feel you did the right thing. That's a good thing to feel, but how did this help your brother? Would doing the same thing give you different results?

[Jareth89]

Notwendy in my experience being truthful involves being direct, but tactfully. To answer your question;

>First he has to set some boundaries to maintain moral integrity, to defend his family and to not adhere to any demands from her which are unreasonable or going to cause damage to innocent people. If she does not respond well to this setting down of principles and boundaries then the damaging behaviour is going to continue and I think he should seriously look at the marriage viability.

>If she responds cooperatively then his next job is to get her into therapy. If this is looking absolutely impossible then he needs to look at the marriage viability.

>If she goes into therapy but it doesn't work or is not adequately successful, then he needs to look at the marriage viability.

Whichever way you look at it, he needs to be informed that the collection of behaviours his wife has, does have a name and that it's a mental health issue. Then he can be open to reading material on that and the behaviours can start to be identified to him and he can be validated in his observations, that's he not the crazy one. This makes it less likely for him to be sucked into her drama and fabrications. He then has options available and can talk to me about bpd traits since I also read that literature (as if I haven't got enough to do). He will of course have to agree to keep conversations private between me and him and I will make known to him the serious consequences he will face from his wife if he does not.

The horribly tricky part is suggesting therapy to her. I am concerned about her family dynamics, that her mother is bpd trait (light) and her father just enables her. If her parents were normal I could just talk to them, but they are not normal in the way they enable her behaviour. Whatever my brother tells her, she tells her parents. It's a possibility that my brother could suffer backlash from her parents. Maybe her parents already know about her diagnosis.

Your last point...being upfront to my brother about what I see and his own behaviour gives him the dose of reality he needs to hear. It's normal. I don't have to provoke my sil at all...she sees me as a threat and the threat level just fluctuates. It's there when I do nothing, just by my mere presence. BPD is unlikely to be to blame for all her feelings. Just usual female jealousy will do. I noticed that she does adapt her behaviour more positively in front of me since I stated my objection. However I think the usual manipulations/distortions are continuing in private.

[formflier]

Hey...we(I) are trying to help..but I'm getting lost and need some clarity.

First of all...is it possible that he thinks about 5 years and 5 more years differently than you do?

How many different ways can you think of..that he can think about it that would be acceptable to you?

Can you try to type out exactly what you said to you brother "It seems clear you actually used the words "leave her ass"..but I would guess you said more than that.

Properly understanding where we have been (getting these questions answered) is critical to creating a viable way forward.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

[  I noticed that she does adapt her behaviour more positively in front of me since I stated my objection. 

How have you expressed your appreciation for her improvement?

Best,

FF

[Jareth89]

How have you expressed your appreciation for her improvement?
Best,FF

FF Your comments appear like an interrogation for me. You and I don't understand each other, but it doesn't matter. I think like what Zachira wrote, I could relate easily to that. I don't think  you will agree with what she wrote, but that's fine. I'm always polite and civil to my sil, however she is not, there is always something going on and her behaviour generally (constant attention seeking nature) makes her unpleasant, uninteresting and immature to be around. Most adults wouldn't enjoy being around that. I have never told my brother to 'abandon her ass' or divorce her...yet. Read my post, I said I admonished him for his behaviour and informed him about hers. That's all.

If I expressed appreciation for her improvement, she would say 'what improvement, i've done nothing wrong'. So to reiterate, I am always civil and polite around my sil. Do have some sympathy for adults who have to be around this kind of thing, especially if one of her parents is infected too. I can't answer your questions any more than that.

I plan to tell my brother sooner rather than later.

[Notwendy]

I think your wishes for your brother are very sound. I wanted the same thing for my father.

I am  interested in how things go after you speak to your brother. I hope you will come back and post what happens and what he does with the information you give him. I'm serious, because even if it didn't work when I said things like this- I would like to see it go better.

[I Am Redeemed]

This thread has reached the posting limit and is now locked. Part 2 is here:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338435.0