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Author Topic: H left the house in a rage  (Read 496 times)
AskingWhy
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« on: August 11, 2019, 02:00:56 AM »

BPDs respond to their life circumstances in ways that nons cannot even begin to understand.  I am so depressed about my codependency.  I hope my rambling here makes sense.  

I read somewhere that having BPD is like emotional haemophilia, that once an emotional trigger gets set off, all the deep pains of his/her life since childhood come flooding out like bleeding.

H attended a team building meeting yesterday held at a coworker's house.  H came home marveling and saying how nice the home was and how he was envious of the man's lifestyle.  The man never had any children of his own (hence paid no child support), and his wife had handsome child support for her children from her X that was used toward their fine home.

H's X W found a lover while he was overseas in the military and she took the children who were all under 5 at the time after the divorce.  She married her lover when he divorced his W.  (The lover also had children.)

H was whining about how much this man had not looking at his life decisions or circumstances, namely the decision he made to have children with his uNPD X W.  

In addition, his uNPD F is living in poverty, so there is no hope for any inheritance; in fact, his F often calls him and makes subtle hints for money or outright begging.  I inherited a small family business that provides a small retirement income.  He blasted me for not making use of other investments that I owned.

(For the record, H has a friend whose wife never worked and had no inheritance, but they had no children, the man had a nice inheritance, plus was given a bequest from a close friend.  

And now he has to deal with a W (me) that is so depressed that I can hardly get out of bed in the morning and do household chores.  More than 20 years with a BPD H has brought me to this.  I thought I was marry a man with maturity and the ability to love (what he showed me during the love bomb), and I became aware that I have married a toddler in a man's body.

H and I had argued the night before, so both of us had less than ideal sleep.  I am now well aware of how BPD dynamics function in the hidden recesses of the psyche.  They are like small infants who know only rage and contentment.  When they are sleepy or hungry, or don't have other needs met, they will rage.

I was trying to talk to H about my depression, my own FOO, my depression over the triangulation with his adult C, and H became more and more angry.  He stood up from his chair in a rage, pushed past me, raged again, took the car keys and drove off.  This was after he had more than enough beer from the meeting and had taken a tranquilizer.  I called and left messages expressing concern, which he sent directly to voicemail.  (This was an emotional blackmail technique used by his own children when they were teens, done on the very cell phones he bought them.)  I was concerned about his driving in a rage, and the alcohol and drugs.  

About 30 minutes later, he came back home, still pouting and in a rage.  He went straight to the couch and covered himself with a blanket, turning his back to me.  I apologized for what I might have said that upset him, and he whined, "No, you're not sorry."  It was a huge pity party.  When he left in a rage, he said he wanted to sleep, and I had no idea he was filling with rage.  I wanted to talk about what transpired between us.  When H sleeps, he is like a baby.  

We once had an elderly little dog who soiled her bedding, and was making noise in the bedroom as she was trying to avoid the mess.  H was roused from his sleep (a neurotic light sleeper), and he raged and the dog, screaming at the top of his lungs and terrifying her, yanking the bed out from under her and dumping her on the floor.  I immediately flew to her side and raged at my H, saying what a heartless coward he was to terrify a tiny, dying dog.  (And you know H felt shame after doing it.)  What kind of person has so little control when they are deprived of sleep that they do things like this?  Can you imagine if it was one of the grandchildren crying in the middle of the night?  (I am sure, though, that H would have gently lifted the baby and rocked him back to sleep.  Only H's children and grandchildren account for anything.  The pets and I do not deserve the same consideration.  I don't believe BPDs who say they "lose control" because we know they do.)

What is it with BPDs and sleep?

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« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2019, 06:40:56 AM »

This is actually a typical "storm"- the perfect set up. It's at night when people are tired and more likely to lose control. H has been drinking, and that's a set up. He pushes some "buttons" with you- the fact that his friend's house is nice and you've been too depressed to keep up with things in yours. You pushed his buttons when you expressed your feelings.

This isn't your fault. I think it helps to look at the pattern between two people to see where things break down into a blow up like this. One thing I learned in MC was to avoid emotional discussions at times we were less able to manage our own feelings ( we are only responsible for ours, but we can "read" the circumstances). The acronym "HALT" is a start- hungry, angry, lonely, tired- we are biologically not at our best. Add alcohol to that. When you see that either of you are not at your best- this is not the time to try to have an emotional discussion.

If he can't have control of his emotions, you can work on things not escalating. This isn't about him- I know you don't care much right now. It's working on things not escalating because it's more peaceful for you. It isn't about not speaking your mind, but choosing the time to do so and when he's been drinking that's not the time.

So another way might be your H comes home, it's later at night, he's had some beers and he starts venting at you. If he isn't outright yelling, you could say things that don't escalate like "yes, that house sounds nice" "yes I can understand wishing you had this". At the moment he was saying these things, he was in victim mode. When you tried to get him to understand your feelings, he couldn't switch out of that ( maybe he can't- but he couldn't then ). It wasn't wrong of you to talk about them, it wasn't a good time, and it backfired.

Without adding to the situation, just listening to him may have diffused it. If he still was mad, well then he was. It's also OK that he walked out and slept on the couch. This is him dealing with his anger. Walking away to be by himself may be how he calms down and this is good.
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« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2019, 06:54:45 AM »


What is it with BPDs and sleep?



This has been a big marker of the women in my wife's family.

I often say my wife is "BPD lite"...and she sleeps the best out of all of them.  Her Mom "sleeps" with TV blaring full blast.

I once woke up in the morning and found her sister "sleeping" (she really was asleep) in an easy chair...but her head was down towards the floor on the foot stool extension part...(she was rotated 180 degrees).

Of course..they then complain they are tired...  No duh.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2019, 10:01:38 AM »

Notwendy makes some great points about timing. In a relationship, it would be ideal if we could talk about our feelings when we want, but with pwBPD, we must be more selective about choosing a time when they can be receptive to actually hearing us.

I'm sorry you've been depressed and I can understand why. It seems that your husband is so wedded to his own point of view that he seems unable or unwilling to look at situations through your eyes. (If he had been able to do this years ago, you wouldn't have felt slighted by feeling like a "fifth wheel" to his relationship with his children. I can understand this as I had a relationship with a really nice man who had a crazy young daughter--and I kept my distance exactly because of this dynamic. Years later I ran into him and sure enough, there were suicide attempts and other disruptions and he told me that he wished he could have heard what I was telling him years prior.)

Sometimes for the greater good in a relationship with a pwBPD, we've got to bite our lip and keep things unsaid. I had one of those experiences last night. For months, I've had pretty smooth sailing with my husband, but some of the little oblivious things that he does, or neglects to do, get on my nerves.

We were making dinner together and he put vegetables on the wooden cutting board. I moved them and said, "The cutting board is dirty." (He had left crumbs and a knife from a sandwich he had at lunch and I purposely didn't clean it up--my pet peeve is him leaving messes.) And then I wiped down the cutting board.

Hours later he confronted me and told me that I was constantly criticizing him. So apparently message received, but now it turned into an always.

My initial instinct was to go into defense mode and refute the always, but instead I just listened and validated. "I wouldn't like that if I felt criticized so much." And I asked him to tell me more. As he did, he acknowledged that maybe he was "just overly sensitive" or that it was all in his head, but the basic theme was that he didn't feel appreciated.

My internal dialog was going nuts by this time. I was thinking that I regularly tell him how much I appreciate him, I thank him for the slightest things--like putting items in the recycle bin, and I thank him every time he takes me out to dinner. But I remained quiet and listened more.

What occurred to me is that pwBPD often cannot think beyond the immediate moment, and thus they have the all/never dichotomy. And since feelings equal facts, there was no way I could refute his claims of constantly being criticized or never being appreciated.

When I validated that it would feel bad to not be appreciated, he relaxed and turned on the TV. It reminded me of a kid needing a participation trophy just for attendance. Very sad that they cannot remember to carry in their hearts the love we've shown them and that they need constant "proof" that they're worth caring about.
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« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2019, 12:02:31 PM »

Just wanted to say I read this and relate to so much of what you shared here. My partner is simply an irritable infant without proper sleep -- raging, demanding etc. If something is out of place in the morning (no coffee for instance) it is unbearable. So sick of seeing what is otherwise a peaceful morning shattered when he starts hitting things, slamming cupboards, screaming obscenities etc. I am absorbing the words of advice on this thread and appreciate the input and shares here. Thank you for starting this conversation.
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« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2019, 01:04:54 PM »

Thank you for the comments.  This morning H put a lock on his den door and told me he wants a divorce.

It was always open to me.  I put a lock on my own office door years ago because when his adult children moved in after each of them was kicked out of their uNPD M's house (as they each turned 18), I could not trust them to respect my property and privacy.  The Ds were particularly a part of the covert incest.  The S dropped out ofd college, took to drugs, and is often homeless.  They are all in the NPD and BPD spectrum.  H, due to dissociation, has forgotten that.

He whined about wanting a key to my office yesterday, so I gave it to him. And, lo, now he doesn't want it.  Just like a petulant baby, "I don't want it anymore!"

He has also conveniently forgotten how poorly he was treated by his children as they were growing up, especially the emotional blackmail for favors and money--cars, vacations, expensive things.  They knew his guilt would make him a pushover, and it did.  I have never seen a man cower in front of his children the way he does.  It's stomach turning how they walk all over him.  Their most common and highly effective threat as children and teens was threatening not to come out for visitations.  (Their uNPD M left their father when he was overseas in the military, found a lover, then divorced their father and married her lover, taking them clear across the country.)

As it stands for now, he says he is filing for divorce.  He knows I make much less money than him.  I will still get a handsome settlement for the house for being married to him for over 20 years, plus a part of his social security and military retirement.

More to come as developments happen.  

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« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2019, 03:46:03 PM »

How are you feeling about this, AW? Do you think he's serious this time?
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« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2019, 04:02:26 PM »

How are you feeling about this, AW? Do you think he's serious this time?

Thank you, Cat.  It's really hard to tell if H is bluffing this time as he likes to have an element of control over people.  Inside, he is terrified that I won't be broken up if he files for divorce but simply give him my attorney's business card.  Years ago, he could break me down to tears and begging if he mentioned divorce.  No more.  I woke up to the craziness, learned that it was a mental illness, there was a name for it, and diagnostic criteria.

The Eggshells Handbook by Kreger really helps with understanding BPD men, and I know H is very insecure, or in her words, that he feels like a "nothing."  After being raised and devalued by an NPD F with a codependent M, added to his being abused and devalued/discarded by his uNPD XW, his childhood sweetheart (she cheated on him, then left and took the children), H must have very little self worth.  He makes a big show of rage and threats but it's all for show, for the most part.

Then again, if he does leave, I move on knowing I was not the one with the problem.   I am ready if he chooses to devalue and discard me.

Inside, I am sure H knows he has a serious issue but not quite sure what to make of it.  I know he splits and dissociates, and he finds this is very confusing.  I can see it on his face.  Last night, he raged and dented several cooking pots in the kitchen.  Now he has no memory of this at all.  Today, he saw a dented pot, raged at me and demanded to know what happened to it.  I looked at him and asked,  "You really don't recall what you did, do you?  You did that last night before you drove off in a rage."

All I can do is take this day by day.  I am myself getting ready to throw in the towel.  

H is spending a weekend fishing trip with his friends, and in their company he feels safe and validated.  They fish during the day and then get drunk in the evening cooking the catch, and H splits and won't call me.  These are military friends who shared both combat and time in brothels together, so they went through a lot together, one can say.  I can't say what state of mind H will be in when he returns from this trip.   
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« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2019, 08:05:41 PM »

And now he has to deal with a W (me) that is so depressed that I can hardly get out of bed in the morning and do household chores.  More than 20 years with a BPD H has brought me to this.

This is so relatable and part of my path to recognizing things over the last few months.

I've known I've had varying levels of depression for some time.  A few months ago, as things were coming to a head with uBPDw and there was the threat of her leaving me for another man (second occurance), I was shaken out of it enough to start seeing a series of insights...

1.  That I had been depressed to a milder degree growing up.
2.  That I had come out of depression when I left home and had found a voice, a confidence, and wings once I left home and excelled in the Army and a career field.
3.  I had returned to depression after marriage.
4.  The common element that triggered the depression in both cases and absent when I was not depressed was the feeling of suppression/oppression.
5.  As I examined what created that feeling in the relationship, I realized the extent of damage and what had caused the damage.  Breaking things down, I wondered about NPD and ruled it out, then broke into tears at how much BPD fit.

...and...

6.  BPD can definitely grind someone down into depression, but depression also exacerbates things in a BPD relationship.

A lot of the things I do which trigger the BPD reaction come out of the depression and it's own dysfunctions.  It's created a bit of a loop between us, because the more I am feeling the symptoms of depression and acting out of it, the more upset she becomes and more episodes we have.

If I curl into myself and isolate into my own head, it's a retreat she can't stand.  If I fall into cycles of not accomplishing things I need to do, out of fatigue/drain or out of that cycle of not doing, then feeling guilty and self-blaming, which saps energy and leads to more not doing (lather, rinse, repeat), it sparks frustration in her that leads to rages.  Things like that.

It does start to feel like you need to cater to and support your partner's mental illness without recognition of or support for your own, like the burden of both is on you.  And that can feed the depression more, right?

As I was examining my own depression, I opened up a lot about it to her.  She listened, voiced appreciation for the openness, and was sympathetic.  Of course, it was an examination of "this is my dysfunction and how it works", none of it pointing to her or her as a root.  So, being solely about my own flaws, it was easier for her to take in.  And she seemed to.

A couple weeks ago, though, as I felt bogged down, she raged at me - "you're getting complacent... you're no longer putting any effort in... all because you think the threat of me leaving is passed... etc etc etc."  Inside, I was crying "no, it's the depression... you know what it does and know what it looks like... you're smart enough to see that I am sinking back down... and blaming me for it in rage does not help."  A week or so ago, obviously distraught, I told her "The depression is coming back hard... I am drowning" and she slammed the door on the conversation, not even asking me about it afterward in a more calm state.

It does start to feel very one-sided.  We need to understand and handle their illness and need to manage and handle our own with no expectation of reciprocity.

But, beyond sympathy, what my point is is that the two can become action-reaction as a pairing.  Are there ways that you can see your own behaviors in the grip of depression spark or intensify BPD episodes?

I've realized that I need to seek help for my depression, especially realizing it may help alleviate some tension and reactive cycles between us.  Not only that, but I realize the support is not there for me at home - she is incapable of any sustained support.  That's a hard truth I face, because I do feel that with support at home and work together, it would be manageable.  Is that something you've explored or tried?
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« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2019, 08:53:52 PM »

Excerpt
6.  BPD can definitely grind someone down into depression, but depression also exacerbates things in a BPD relationship.

Last summer, ubpdw and I were engaging in our usual Saturday pastime... fighting, she was as usual bent out of shape about what I don’t even remember...

I’d had enough, and needed to do the “triple D”... ‘disengage-detach-defend’... so I told her, I need some space, and I went out onto the back porch, and sat in the chair swing...

And she followed me, and continued her rage... she yelled... “WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU!”...

I had a moment of cold sweat clear thought, and I blurted out,”you are killing me, I can’t function anymore when you’re like this, I’m so _____’ing depressed, I’m reaching the point that I can no longer do this”...

She stuck her finger in my face, and told me as if I were a child, “BE A MAN AND GET OVER YOURSELF!”...

...ugh ; (

Here a few months ago, she took me out for Father’s Day, and she told me, “Red, you really made me mad when you told me you were depressed”...

*depression also exacerbates things in a BPD relationship.... so there you go eh’ smh.

AskingWhy,

I’ve followed your posts here for several years now, please know we all care very much for you... please take care of yourself, and be careful... you’ve been fighting this for a very long time, as many of us have, I personally know how you are feeling, it’s tough no matter how ‘conditioned’ we may have become over the years, and decades.

#keep posting, we are all here listening.

Kind Regards, Red5
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« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2019, 09:21:24 PM »

I’ve followed your posts here for several years now,.... please know we all care very much for you ... please take care of yourself, ... and be careful... you’ve been fighting this for a very long time, as many of us have, I personally know how you are feeling, it’s tough no matter how ‘conditioned’ we may have become over the years, and decades.

#keep posting, we are all here listening.

Kind Regards, Red5

Red, thank you for the note.  It's really interesting to see how functional H is in his professional, corporate life (like you, he's retired military) and what a mess he is emotionally.  To his friends and colleagues, he is a considerate and congenial man who adores his W.  

I appreciate the insights of the members here.  

Right now H is sleeping on the couch and giving me the silent treatment in addition to the divorce threat.  He made dinner, but made a point of eating alone in the garage, leaving me to eat alone in the dining room.  He knows I am depressed, but expressed no empathy. And, LOL, he said he had empathy for me.  Then he countered this by saying he was unable to give any more empathy!  Talk about cycling!

His lack of reason is, as they say, "crazy making."  The non ends up being driven crazy by the pwBPD.

This site is helpful as my H has many NPD traits.  I had several "a-ha" moments reading this list.  I knew many abusive tactics well.

https://outofthefog.website/personality-disorders-1/2015/12/6/narcissistic-personality-disorder-npd

This is also helpful:

https://www.abuseandrelationships.org/Content/Behaviors/basic_coercion.html

Like your W, my H told me to "get over it" ion regards to my depression.  His adult children are all in the BPD/NPD spectrum, and I have never seen him give this kind of "tough love" approach.  H is always kind and patient, sending his drugs/alcohol son many times into rehab ("He'll kick it this time.  I will set him up in an apartment."), and forgiving his uBPD D each time for her weeks of silent treatment and personal insults. 



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« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2019, 09:50:22 PM »

Last summer, ubpdw and I were engaging in our usual Saturday pastime... fighting,

Oh... it's Saturday nights for you all?  We're more the Fri or Sun types, especially since I work through the night those nights and she is aware how hard it is on me to come off a blowup and have to work.   

Excerpt
.... so I told her, I need some space, and I went out onto the back porch, and sat in the chair swing...

And she followed me, and continued her rage.... she yelled... “WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU!”..

Yup.  See my "Second Guessing" thread. 

Excerpt
I had a moment of cold sweat clear thought, and I blurted out, ...”you are killing me, I can’t function anymore when you’re like this, I’m so _____’ing depressed, I’m reaching the point that I can no longer do this”....

She stuck her finger in my face, and told me as if I were a child, “BE A MAN AND GET OVER YOURSELF!”....

OMG, yes.  I've heard the exact same.

The whole "be a man" phrase is something that bugs me, in and of itself, to be honest.  I could never imagine myself saying "be a woman and ___", especially with the implication that she's not living up to some expectation of what a woman should be.  It's really dismissive in both cases on top of being based in gender stereotype.  That's a whole different topic and I'm not looking to spin there.

Excerpt
*depression also exacerbates things in a BPD relationship.....

Well, truth is it does... or at least can.  The two can make bad bedfellows as interplaying dynamics.  And as we're saying, a big part of stress is how unfair it can feel to have to be the one to have to deal with both.

Out of this discussion, I'm actually considering talking to her in a calmer mode and letting her know that I am going to see a therapist for my own depression, explaining to her that a reason I feel I need to is that I do not feel the support at home.  It may set her off or it may sink in that it's a consequence of her behavior.  How that processes is not on me.

Quote from: AskingWhy
His lack of reason is, as they say, "crazy making."  The non ends up being driven crazy by the pwBPD.

Yyyuuppp.  I hit a point in all this where I really did start to wonder if I was crazy.
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« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2019, 10:10:39 PM »

The whole "be a man" phrase is something that bugs me, in and of itself, to be honest.  I could never imagine myself saying "be a woman and ___", especially with the implication that she's not living up to some expectation of what a woman should be.  It's really dismissive in both cases on top of being based in gender stereotype.  That's a whole different topic and I'm not looking to spin there.

WE, and yet here is my uBPD H, a grown man, telling me to "get over it" with my depression.  

What I need now is love, encouragement and support.  Did I get it?  Not by a long shot. Instead, I got invalidation, accusations of being a lazy, selfish b****, and a divorce threat.  H went on and on, of course, about how patient he was with me, what a great supportive H he is (he pays the mortgage, etc.  Heck, he makes more that twice what I make), and I am an unappreciative b****.  He also said what a wonderful H he was for taking me to medical appointments.  (Um, isn't that what spouses are supposed to do?  He acts like he is overextending himself to take his own wife to the doctor.  What a guy!)  

I asked when H planned on having me served with divorce papers, and he said, "I am not saying."

So much for my weekend:  rages, threats, pouting and the silent treatment.  Welcome to the world of the BPD man.

Any thoughts on this?
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« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2019, 10:57:08 PM »

WE, and yet here is my uBPD H, a grown man, telling me to "get over it" with my depression.  

What I need now is love, encouragement and support.  Did I get it?  Not by a long shot. Instead, I got invalidation, accusations of being a lazy, selfish b****, and a divorce threat.  H went on and on, of course, about how patient he was with me, what a great supportive H he is (he pays the mortgage, etc.  Heck, he makes more that twice what I make), and I am an unappreciative b****.  He also said what a wonderful H he was for taking me to medical appointments.  (Um, isn't that what spouses are supposed to do?  He acts like he is overextending himself to take his own wife to the doctor.  What a guy!)  

I asked when H planned on having me served with divorce papers, and he said, "I am not saying."

So much for my weekend:  rages, threats, pouting and the silent treatment.  Welcome to the world of the BPD man.

Any thoughts on this?

Only that it is a horrendous thing to have to go through.  Everybody should have support, most especially from their spouse.  It's a heavy load to carry to have to carry his and yours and to be blamed as if you're lazy on top of that is insult to injury.  It's not a fair path to walk.

In no way, above, did I mean to communicate otherwise and I am very sorry if I did.  Believe me, I do understand.
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« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2019, 10:10:27 AM »

 Did I get it?  

How often does he give this in the way that you want it?

Trying to get a sense of 20% of the time he is a good partner and 80% bad/invalidating....or 60/40 or...??

Best,

FF

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« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2019, 03:11:48 PM »

How often does he give this in the way that you want it?

Trying to get a sense of 20% of the time he is a good partner and 80% bad/invalidating....or 60/40 or...??

As you know, H is enmeshed with his adult children and gives them anything from cars, skis and vacations, while I get trinkets.  When he gave me a rather lavish gift, he tells me I am not going to get anything lavish for a long time, all the while spending lavishly on his children.

It's hard to quantify the percentage of good versus bad with my husband at this point.  I am currently seeking legal advice so I know my rights. 
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« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2019, 03:12:44 PM »

In no way, above, did I mean to communicate otherwise and I am very sorry if I did.  Believe me, I do understand.

Not at all, WE!  You comments are nothing but supportive and validating.
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« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2019, 03:44:15 PM »


How many days of the month are you happy you are married to him?  Really mad you are married to him?  Apathetic about the marriage?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2019, 01:16:52 AM »

Not at all, WE!  You comments are nothing but supportive and validating.

One of the "funny" things about living with someone with BPD is... sometimes you start to wonder if someone is reacting adversely to something you said, almost like a pwBPD reading into things.  I just wasn't sure.  Sometimes I speak a bit more from my brain (breaking down concepts to understand) or relay personal experience as a way to show I understand.  Both these things can sometimes rub people wrong.

I'm glad that you did not feel that way.
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« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2019, 02:06:38 AM »

One of the "funny" things about living with someone with BPD is... sometimes you start to wonder if someone is reacting adversely to something you said, almost like a pwBPD reading into things.  I just wasn't sure.  Sometimes I speak a bit more from my brain (breaking down concepts to understand) or relay personal experience as a way to show I understand.  Both these things can sometimes rub people wrong.

Thank you for your kind concern, WE.  Author Patricia Evans, who writes on verbal abuse, states that after being so long subjected to abuse, sometimes the target will himself become abusive to the partner.  The partner finally has enough and learns to fight back in like manner.
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« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2019, 04:31:01 AM »

Thank you for your kind concern, WE.  Author Patricia Evans, who writes on verbal abuse, states that after being so long subjected to abuse, sometimes the target will himself become abusive to the partner.  The partner finally has enough and learns to fight back in like manner.

That is the crux of what intensified things here the past few months.  I began to let my own anger out more than I had in the past, feeling I needed to stand up for myself.

She calls her anger /  protective function her "dragon"  and I can understand using the word because, as I woke up more and more to the damage done over the years, it felt very much like a dragon was awakening in me, like a protector of my own.

And that's how a cycle continues, isn't it?  I was watching a video on splitting (link below) and as it talked about how splitting is essentially an unevolved ability to integrate due to trauma as a childn I thought about how her father was angry and abusive.  Her splitting and dysregulation of anger came out of that - "good dad vs bad dad" as a maladaptive way of processing as a child.  In time, victim becomes perpetrator, somewhere inside perceiving that as a shift from lack of control (victim) to control (perpetrator), right?

Each of us has the potential to take that road if we push back in the same way as protective adaptation.

In this case here, though, I think it was more the sensitivity of fearing having misstepped or brought out an unintended reaction... the product of living on eggshells at times.

https://youtu.be/K2XZs3z7jlg
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« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2019, 01:42:06 PM »

That is the crux of what intensified things here the past few months.  I began to let my own anger out more than I had in the past, feeling I needed to stand up for myself.
https://youtu.be/K2XZs3z7jlg

The book by Lundy Bancroft, "Should I Stay or Should I Go?" is about abuse (not disorder specific) and it mentions anger as an awakening to the abuse and starting to change.  It congratulates the target of the abuse for the anger.  It's a step forward.

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« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2019, 01:56:24 PM »

Great link, WEW!  I do not, however, plan to tell uBPD H he is likely BPD.  I am reading, "Splitting." and advised against it in the even of divorce proceedings.

uBPD H is cycling.  It took two days to split me black, and back to white.  First came the emotional blackmail/withholding affection.  On Saturday, he hated my guts and left the house in a rage, driving away with threats of divorce.  30 minutes later, he came back home and slept on the couch.  He walked straight to the couch and ignored me.

The next morning I was given the silent treatment, and he was putting a lock on the den door, only making vague threats of having me served papers for divorce.  I got several of these.  He refused to enter any conversation that I attempted to initiate.  I let him have his space, accepting sleeping in our bed alone.  I no longer attempted dialogue.  

On Monday, I responded to his emotional blackmail by saying I was thinking about his "requests."  (In reality, holding my feelings hostage.)  He appeared to calm down by the end of the day.  By evening, he was taking his clothes and toiletries back to our bedroom and to sleep in our bed.  

It took two days to go from his hating me to wanting life to continue like normal.  My head is still spinning.
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« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2019, 03:39:09 PM »

Great link, WEW!  I do not, however, plan to tell uBPD H he is likely BPD.  I am reading, "Splitting." and advised against it in the even of divorce proceedings.

I question that, too.  She's looking from the perspective of seeing only the ones who made it to her office.

It's tough to know and yet not to be able to say, isn't it?  As I look at finding a therapist for depression, something I considered is maybe finding two in the area capable / willing to work with BPD and since my wife is leery of therapists, to say...

"I really need to see a therapist for my depression.  I'm also really worried about where you've hit with all the turmoil between us and those points where things have gotten kinda suicidal.  How bout if I find two therapists and we each sit down with both on our own.  You get dibs on which you're comfortable with and I'll work with the other.  Yours can help you with the stress and all that, maybe even some of the communication stuff you're saying we need to work on, and mine will be for my depression so I can better be here for you."

Both, of course, will be aware ahead of time, so they know what to look for and to slowly/tactfully work toward the BPD topic over time with trust.

Excerpt
uBPD H is cycling.  It took two days to split me black, and back to white.  First came the emotional blackmail/withholding affection.  On Saturday, he hated my guts and left the house in a rage, driving away with threats of divorce.  30 minutes later, he came back home and slept on the couch.  He walked straight to the couch and ignored me.

The next morning I was given the silent treatment, and he was putting a lock on the den door, only making vague threats of having me served papers for divorce.  I got several of these.  He refused to enter any conversation that I attempted to initiate.  I let him have his space, accepting sleeping in our bed alone.  I no longer attempted dialogue.  

On Monday, I responded to his emotional blackmail by saying I was thinking about his "requests."  (In reality, holding my feelings hostage.)  He appeared to calm down by the end of the day.  By evening, he was taking his clothes and toiletries back to our bedroom and to sleep in our bed.  

It took two days to go from his hating me to wanting life to continue like normal.  My head is still spinning.

It sounds very familiar.  How long do the cycles usually last and is this a return to balance or an upswing to idealization?  How much do you feel mentioning thinking about his "requests" nudged him out of it?  Sometimes when it reaches them in the right moment or way, that realization of "I might be taken up on this threat" can snap them out, I think.  Never as a return threat or in anger, but sometimes when it registers to them that you're calmly and seriously considering it.

Y'know, I hear about fast cycles and that "typical" hate you one hour, love you the next.  My wife can turn on a dime and sometimes we can have a fight and then be reconciling by evening, but when she really paints me black, it's usually two or more days and sometimes weeks.  I've spent a couple periods of 2 or 3 months where I was painted for the majority of that time.

I sometimes wonder if the long cycles have to do with something like a bipolar influence, bipolar not being really short cycle (all in one day).
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« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2019, 03:44:34 PM »

The book by Lundy Bancroft, "Should I Stay or Should I Go?" is about abuse (not disorder specific) and it mentions anger as an awakening to the abuse and starting to change.  It congratulates the target of the abuse for the anger.  It's a step forward.

I might have to get that.  I saw it on the shelves as I was looking for BPD books.  But, I am curious how anger is a step forward.  I can see it in a way, because it's a sign of "I recognize a limit in what I will take", but I also see it as potential adopting of an abuser's patterns.
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« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2019, 01:30:54 AM »

I might have to get that.  I saw it on the shelves as I was looking for BPD books.  But, I am curious how anger is a step forward.  I can see it in a way, because it's a sign of "I recognize a limit in what I will take", but I also see it as potential adopting of an abuser's patterns.

This book is purely about abuse and does not psychoanalyse the partner. It is a guide to help a partner/target/victim see whether or not the abuser had the potential to change or not, and whether one should leave.

The anger is a response to the unjust treatment and is an awakening.  Many codependents are abused, but rationalize and forgive their partners.  Dr. Northrup calls this "righteous anger," which is legitimate.  

You might also consider her book, "Dodging Energy Vampires: An Empath's Guide to Evading Relationships That Drain You and Restoring Your Health and Power."  It's about what happens to partners in R/S with pw BPD and NPD.

https://www.amazon.com/Dodging-Energy-Vampires-Relationships-Restoring/dp/1788170172/ref=sr_1_2?crid=33I1VA0TKS87A&keywords=energy+vampires+a+practical+guide+for+psychic+self-protection&qid=1565764199&s=books&sprefix=energy+vam%2Cstripbooks%2C243&sr=1-2
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« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2019, 10:02:32 AM »

The anger is a response to the unjust treatment and is an awakening.  

Many codependents are abused, but rationalize and forgive their partners.  

Dr. Northrup calls this "righteous anger," which is legitimate.

I've often read about an element of this phenomena…

Something along the lines of, "the non will apologize to the npd/bpd for the fact that they (non) have become angry at the npd/bpd for their (npd/bpd's) abuse of them (the non)…

Essentially, the non is trying to explain (Subservient JADE) to the npd/bpd that they are sorry and that they apologize for being angry, about being abused, wow : (

… when you try to explain, and then apologize (JADE?) to a npd/bpd, it’s a catch22 / reversal... basically, the non (you and I) attempts to explain, offer excuses, we may even attempt to take the blame, admit that we are the ones at fault, "just to get it to stop"  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)... the non will become subservient, and will "roll over", trying to explain their own anger… as to why they are angry; to their partner, their loved one, their spouse, their SO (etc'), the npd/bpd… and all the while, in our own mind… we; the non is making excuses-internal justifications (to ourselves) for their SO's abusive behavior towards us, trying to make sense of this… "I maybe deserved this", "I caused this", "it was me"... "if only I would have ____"… this is backwards thinking  … you see, when you "JADE", you are trying in vain; to explain to your SO why you shouldn’t be abused… and then!… this is the crazy part, your SO then makes excuses (they are reverse JADE'ing you) as to their behavior towards you, and even blames you for their abusive behaviors towards you… "if you weren't such a useless lazy 'man' (shame)… then I would not have to constantly correct you", (control & punishment)… slam the door, break the flower pot, throw the rice cooker to the floor, call you names, text all the foo, and tell them how useless you are to ALL of them : (

… all true stories.

This is crazy making… it is very destructive, there is no mutual respect here, and when respect is gone from the relationship, there is no longer a viable relationship.

To quote one of my 'fav' internet personas… "if it hurts all the time, it ain't love sweetie"… "if you were not related or married to any of these individuals, knowing what you know now, would you have anything to do with them,  … if the answer is "no", then you must act accordingly"… wow : (

How many times have I "apologized" to get out of silent treatment jail, or to get her to stop screaming at me, or my Son… how many times have I taken ALL the blame (her projections)… just to get her back to 'baseline'… to get her to "stop"... knowing full well that I would now sacrifice my own ability to effect any further reasoning to her (good luck with that)... about what had happened with her… ie' projective identification - emotional reasoning - feelings equal facts… yeah "reasoning with her"… like that would ever happen anyway… and again; also knowing full well, that it would all soon happen all over again, no matter what I did to try to prevent triggers, another melt down, dysregulation, explosion… wash-rinse-repeat…

We all do this,

Hang in there AW,

Red5

 
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« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2019, 01:43:41 PM »

Something along the lines of, … "the non will apologize to the npd/bpd for the fact that they (non) have become angry at the npd/bpd for their (npd/bpd's) abuse of them (the non) …

Essentially, the non is trying to explain (Subservient JADE) to the npd/bpd that they are sorry and that they apologize for being angry, about being abused, … wow : (

Subservient is a good way to put it.  I am way too familiar with this and am pretty sure it resonates for a lot of people here.

Wife's sister was doing a tarot reading of us as a couple for fun.  She asked who was dominant in the relationship and I looked uneasily at my wife, knowing her perception is that I am, but the reality is the BPD shifts power dynamic to her, at least in the way that I handled it (a long the lines of what you said).

I'm at a loss at the moment.  I don't want to unload here, because this thread shouldn't be about me, but I'm struggling hard.  Nother thread.
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« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2019, 02:38:54 PM »

What AskingWhy is describing here, her marriage to her unpd/bpdH… correct me please if I'm off the trail here AW : )

To me, AW's u/H is trying to maintain control over AW with his behaviors, and threats… he may very well be very afraid of losing the 20 yr marriage, and repeating to a certain extent his previous marriage, as AW has described to us, his previous marriage wounded him deeply, and he has no where to "off-load"… so AW gets it… he projects it ALL onto her : (

He has been doing this for almost two decades now…

AW has put up with so much, and has persevered through a whole lot, she has at the same time learned, and deciphered her H's suspected dx (npd/bpd), and she continues to learn, and self educate, even as the marriage continues, as does the destructive behavior's, projections of her u/H, simultaneously.

What we see here, imho is a 'hostage situation'… but the tables have turned, over the past few months and years… as AW has become more and more aware, and now understands what has been happening, all the while however AW's u/H continues to try to maintain control, through his threats of divorce, and destructive behaviors…

AW seems at this point in time, to no longer let her u/H "take her power" anymore, she is "on to him now", she is keeping her power now, and no longer letting herself be "controlled / punished".

AW's u/H nonetheless seems to not comprehend that the 'hostage situation' is now effectively over, and AW has re-established her power, and authority over her own feelings… and unto herself, and no longer to her u/H.

Does this make sense AskingWhy?

We are all right here with you, you are not alone, and we are very proud of you, and we admire your strength to persevere, and sustain.

Blessings to you!

Kind Regards, Red5

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« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2019, 02:31:45 AM »

What AskingWhy is describing here, her marriage to her unpd/bpdH … correct me please if I'm off the trail here AW : )

Blessings to you!

Kind Regards, Red5

WE and Red5, thank you for the kind, long thoughts.

Red is on target about where I am now.  For the last several years, I knew something about uBPD H was off.  His FOO is all "off."  Only in the last five years or so have I been proactive about how I react to H.  I journal to get my thoughts out.  And I read, read, read.  Books on how to deal with angry people, pwBPD, "splitting," emotional blackmail, etc.  Of course, the kind members of BPD Family are so wonderful and encouraging.

I was speaking to H about his plastering the house with pictures of his adult children, and many of when they were very young.  It reminded me of what a book on BPD mentioned about a BPD woman who kept photos of her children all over her home to keep them "alive in her mind."  This is because pwBPD have object permanence problems.  H raged at me, "And what is the problem with that?!"  I notice there are times when he will wear things his children have given him at once:  a sweater, a shirt, a hat.  It's like he has to keep tangible evidence that they exist.  

It's like the "transitional object" one sees in very young children:  a stuffed toy or blanket that reminds them of their mother.

https://www.fatherly.com/health-science/transitional-objects-why-blankies-are-important-to-your-babys-developm/

I have nothing against photos of family members, but they are literally all over the house:  almost every school photo, and many of them from their times of visitation, including, literally, Disney land.  (Phenomenon of the Disney dad.)  In his den alone there are 17 photos of his children in all stages of their lives, and only one of me.  This is not an exaggeration.  I counted.  There are photos of me in other parts of the house, but in his man cave there is only one of me.  Clearly he does not want to have thoughts of me in his private space.  His grandchildren are on the wallpaper and screen saver of his computer.  

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