She took the boy and I think she’s serious

[JNChell]

I had the day off work. I was keeping S4 longer than usual and let his mom know that today wouldn’t be a usual Monday. She got really mad when he wasn’t at daycare. I got really mad back. I called her awful names. Stuff that I’ve been hanging onto. I got so pissed off at her. I couldn’t hold it.

I feel like I was set up to react today. Yes, that falls on me. She’s going to take our boy from me. I know her and I know what she’s doing. She’s punishing me. Does she not realize that she’s hurting our Son as well? I’ve gotten great advice here, I haven’t followed it very well.

[GaGrl]

So...deep breath! What is the situation now? What did she say or do in response?I

Remind me...do you have a court order? What does it say?

[JNChell]

No court order. I lost it and said everything I’ve ever wanted to say her.

[JNChell]

I think she’s going to keep S4 until we go to court. Not sure. She never tells the truth. GaGrl, I really let her have it. I was brutal. I kind of lost it. I did a lot of damage.

[JNChell]

I’m so sick of this. This isn’t normal.

[david]

I made lots of errors in judgement in the beginning. I learned from my mistakes. I learned the less I reacted and the calmer I stayed the better things became.
I never got to tell her what I really was thinking. I no longer have an urge to do so.
It all started in 2007. It took me a few years to get myself from reacting.

[JNChell]

Very bad parts of me came out today. I called her names and I was very forthright about it. I lashed out at her. I know that I shouldn’t do that, but I can only take so much from her. This started weeks ago due to S4’s glasses. Im at one of those places where I want to shake his mom by the shoulders and tell her that I love her, and wanting to simply wanting to get away from that. Like jumping in a pond and floating on your back while looking up at the nighttime sky. I truly love my Son’’s mom. Heart and soul. I will never reach her. I’ll only knock her down.

Today has been a really PLEASE READty day. I’m glad that you reached out.

[JNChell]

She’s not BPD. She has traits. She’s a narcissist. The covert kind. I don’t know when I’m going to see my Son again. This really is going to take court, isn’t it?

[ForeverDad]

Losing your cool, your self-control, is a huge concern when there is conflict with parenting.  Two questions...

Have you learned your lesson not to vent in any way to your ex?  Sorry, she may deserve it - and even more - but the reality is that men especially need to avoid the slightest risk of being abusive or threatening.  And you already know that venting on her will not cause her to have a moment of insight and admit you're right.

What do you think might be the consequences?  Is she likely to have recorded it?  Remember that if it is just "he said..., she said..." then courts will often ignore it as unsupported hearsay.  Court and other professionals cannot require you to validate her claim nor testify against yourself, you have a right to remain silent.  At the very least you can state you don't have any abusive or threatening patterns of behavior.  A one-time incident does not make a pattern.  Also, as long as you didn't vent at a child, it's only you and her, parenting is not directly impacted in most cases.  (I recall when I called CPS twice on my spouse, their question was, "Did she rage at only you?  Then call back if/when she rages at a child.")

Yes, you flubbed up.  But odds are it won't turn out nearly as bad as you initially feared possible.  The ball is with her now, whether she will or can do anything with it.  Perhaps all she will do is use the incident to weaken your boundaries, hold it over your head over and over or try to get you to admit being horrendous later on.  So don't cave or admit.  Henceforth, remember this lesson, the fear you experienced afterward.  Learn from this.

David said it well, his experience is typical here:

I made lots of errors in judgement in the beginning. I learned from my mistakes. I learned the less I reacted and the calmer I stayed the better things became.
I never got to tell her what I really was thinking. I no longer have an urge to do so.

If she decides to withhold your child before the court makes a temp order, or she tries to use it against you, then remember:  You venting at her is not basis to block your parenting.

I was blocked from seeing my preschooler for over three months while I was waiting for a divorce initial hearing.  When the magistrate verified that she had blocked, he remarked, "I'll fix that."  He just set an order similar to the one that had previously been dismissed.  No make-up time for me. (Lawyer was silent.)  No consequences for her.  (Court seems to try to avoid making consequences early in the divorce process.)

[formflier]

What can you do for some serious self care today?

We've all been there...my mouth has gotten me in so much trouble...  sigh.

Take care of yourself first, read FD's post again and then start picking up pieces.

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

We've all been in situations where we wanted to grab the words that came out of our mouths and stuff them back in. Rather than beat yourself up about it, you can spend some time now looking at your current situation with a realistic eye.

Am I correct that you were trying to work out visitation without getting a court order? And your ex was the one resisting a formal plan/court order?

Where do you think you stand now?

What will be best for your son?

[formflier]

And best for long term?

FF

[JNChell]

Thanks for the replies, support and for nudging me in the right direction everyone. I had to take some time to cool my jets. A quick note. I’m diagnosed with C-PTSD and S4’s mom knows this. Being reactive is a strong trait of the condition, and my intuition tells me that she pokes it on purpose. She’ll make reasonable misgivings very unreasonable and unleash on me. Nobody else sees it and it becomes too much at times. It almost feels like I’m being purposely targeted at times. I did my time as a child/adolescent. I don’t want this crap in my life anymore. I was doing really well at trying to set proper boundaries for the right reasons and completely blew it yesterday. I was the pressure cooker that broke a seal. I’m ashamed of myself and feel like I took a big step backwards.

[JNChell]

FD,

Have you learned your lesson not to vent in any way to your ex?

I really hope so. I’ll never be able to wrap my head around how some people think it’s ok to use children as a means of control, so I guess that that is something I need to work on accepting without seeking out a logical explanation. I need to accept that my reactions to her have an affect on my relationship with my Son. I should’ve went about things very differently yesterday. I took the low road. I know that you know, but this is all so exhausting. I just want to love and raise my kiddo the best that I can. My gut tells me that his mom would love to see me fail and I don’t understand that. How would that benefit our Son?

What do you think might be the consequences?

It’s recorded. It was via text. Yes, I’m thinking what you’re thinking. I’m an idiot. The consequences, I think, are that I would appear to be an angry person to the court. Not towards S4, but his mother. The truth is, is that I am angry with her. I’m also angry with myself. Those two statements explained would take up a lot of bandwidth, so I’ll just leave them there. This whole thing is starting to feel like a game, and I don’t like games like this. For one, she’s better than me at games like this. I really have no desire to participate in it, but I often find myself in the thick of it.

There are some things that I’m learning along the way. My emotional intelligence needs work. I’m pretty weak there. It’s strong around the right people, but when I sense that someone is trying to hurt me it pretty much shuts down and I fall into a full on survivor mode. I guess that I’m getting away from the point here. I need to be more diligent and basically on guard with my feelings and emotions at all times when dealing with her.

I have heard that courts often dismiss tensions between parents and focus on the best interests of the child. I have strong records of trying to do that.

[formflier]

feel like I took a big step backwards.

I don't think so...

Probably more accurate to say you weren't as far ahead as you thought you were...

or

I have a more accurate view of my relationship skills now.

Let me give you another point of view.  When you think she "pokes" you to get you to blow...can you see that's about you?  (and she very well may do this)

However, it's also possible (and I think likely) that her own emotionally stuff (BPD) leads her to "look externally for a fix" and she knows (whithout much deep thought) that doing xyz with you gets a reaction that is meaningful to her  (she realizes she has hooked you..that you care..that she matters)

Said another way..don't personalize her tactics.  If I had money to bet...I would bet it's about her and not you.

Does that help you look at things a different way?

Best,

FF

[JNChell]

Hi, ff. I appreciate you chiming in.

What can you do for some serious self care today?

Today it’s r & r. I’m under the weather anyway, so I’m just trying to chill out and decompress from my dumb attack yesterday. Perhaps some prayer and trying to strike up a convo with the man.

Best for the long term? You know, I’m pretty bad about putting myself at the end of the line when it comes to this type of thinking. As I sit here and think about that, my overall well-being is probably the best way that I can sum that up. My Son would benefit from a strong father. I would benefit by feeling good.

[kells76]

Hey JNChell;

I understand wanting to "give it to them straight". The kids' mom is pretty wacky at best and generally poisonously manipulative. I can relate to the feeling you had of once the seal was broken, it all came out.

It's sounding like court is in your future, and you're concerned about how this might impact things. What would it be like if you took some proactive, documented steps to address the situation? I.e., nobody would be making you or ordering you to (A) go to counseling, (B) take a documented anger management class, (C) etc. In a sense, you would be undercutting your xW's ability to use this episode against you.

Maybe consider some ways in which you can take responsibility for your role in the conflict and have positive changes documented. That way, if she tries to pull the "JNChell isn't safe around Son, see how angry he is", you can jiu-jitsu that: "Your Honor, I saw that choosing to act out of my anger and C-PTSD harmed our coparenting relationship, so I chose to (learn new anger management techniques, work with a counselor, etc) in order for our communications to focus only on our son in the future. I learned from my choice"

Something like that. If you do have a C &/or L already, maybe run that idea past them.

You're not alone here, JNChell.

[JNChell]

Hi, GaGrl.

S4’s mom wasn’t rejecting anything. She put the current visitation schedule in place. She manipulates it at her leisure. It’s gotten really weird at times. I’m basically left feeling that I have no control over that aspect of things. She gaslights to the point of calling the first weekend of the month, the third weekend and will not waiver. How does a person reason with that? The thing is, nobody else can see these things. I’m not trying to take a victim stance. I’ve been involved here for a while, but it’s still tough to navigate this. I don’t believe in the values and virtues that she juggles and changes due to her feelings. I think a part of me is still stuck with her. Maybe I’m not fully detached. I read a post from Skip the other day that said if a person is fully detached that they would be able to be in the same room with that person, and be comfortable in doing so. I’m not there. Two emotions are very present when it comes to S4’s mom. Sadness and fear.

I’m not sure where I stand now. It might take a few days and her possibly getting tired of the full time responsibility of our Son. I think court needs to happen. I can’t afford representation, but I’m feeling like something solid has to be put into place. Our Son needs consistency. I’m beginning to see that I can’t give that to him given the circumstances. I’m blocked from all of his healthcare. She won’t let me take him to appointments or attend them. A court order should clear that up. Another big fear that I have is knowing that dad’s don’t fair well in family court. The flip side of that coin is the fact that I’m not fairing very well by avoiding it. Knowing her and her unreasonable feelings of entitlement, she’ll violate the order. Perhaps a court order is a place to start. It just feels like I’m entering a war, and I don’t want that. I just want our child to be more than us.

[JNChell]

ff, yes, makes total sense. My reactions are about me. I made the choice. I said the words. I reacted when I could’ve simply stepped away for a moment, grounded myself and been logical about the situation.

Her tactics are mindbending, but I understand what you’re saying. You know, it’s really hard to depersonalize everything when I share a child with her. She birthed him without drugs. To sit in that room with her and watch the whole thing unfold was amazing. Now we’re reduced to this.

[JNChell]

Hey there, kells76. If I understood correctly, you think I should enroll in certain classes for documentation?

[formflier]

Two separate thoughts.

Yes..court or court ordered schedule needs to happen.  Sooner rather than later.

Laying low and letter her experience "having no help" is likely to go in your favor.

Use the time wisely...to get yourself back in a better frame of mind.


Last thought:  I really doubt she "plots" things to do you in, although she may on a short term basis.  "Ah..today I feel xyz so I will abc "  The next couple days she will feel different and those other things never really happened..

Best,

FF

[JNChell]

Should I file first? Does it really matter?

[kells76]

Hey there, kells76. If I understood correctly, you think I should enroll in certain classes for documentation?

Hey JNChell!

It might be a good tactic to take some of the wind out of her sails, if you think she might put a lot of weight into "JNChell is angry" in court. Something where you take her "energy" and use it in a way she doesn't expect: "I take responsibility for losing it with xW, and I apologize. I've learned from (X) to change how I communicate [or whatever]. Moving forward, what Son needs is A, B, and C, and here's my proposal..." where you take the "JNChell rages and isn't fit to be around Son" or whatever hyperbole, and essentially "lasso" that focus and pivot it back around to your kid's needs. If that makes sense.

It looks like you're doing the work here already:

I need to accept that my reactions to her have an affect on my relationship with my Son. I should’ve went about things very differently yesterday. I took the low road. I know that you know, but this is all so exhausting. I just want to love and raise my kiddo the best that I can.

Good job looking at yourself  and focusing on what's best for your son.

So it might be worth running by your L if proactively taking an "anger management" seminar, or doing some focused documented work in counseling, could be supportive to your case. Like you pondered:

The consequences, I think, are that I would appear to be an angry person to the court.

I know you have a lot on your plate right now, so this tactic might not be #1 on your list. It's just something to think about and see if it works into your strategy. This is kind of "looking at the trees" in your forest, as it were, just FYI. I'm kind of a "look at the trees" person.

[40days_in_desert]

You're not alone. I did something similar this weekend. My T had told me to "not pick up the rope when she tosses at you to play tug of war". For four years I had maintained this philosophy to not engage. I didn't threaten her in any way but did tell her all of the things that would keep me from ever being in a relationship with her again. Including cheating on me with her 1st cousin. I had never brought that up before. It was our oldest daughter that caught them and our daughter told me a few years ago. The ex didn't deny it.

We're not perfect and everyone has a breaking point. Sounds like you and I hit that point here recently. I was mad at myself for a short period of time and then allowed myself to make the mistake and resume the approach of not engaging when her manufactured memories and accusations come my way the next time. Try to regroup and move forward.

[livednlearned]

Don't be intimidated by hearing that moms fare better in court than dads.

One of the biggest studies about bias in family law courts showed that it's true more moms get more custody, but it also true that more moms file for custody. In cases where moms and dads contested custody, the outcome was about equal. Meaning, if you give up before you even begin, then yeah. You're going to come out with less.

Also, if a lawyer says that to you, he or she is likely perpetuating the bias. "You won't get primary custody in this court" just discourages a dad from trying, so the bias ends up getting introduced before a judge can even rule on the case.

Does your state do 50/50? If so, at least get that started. Without an open case, she can take your son pretty much anywhere. She will probably continue to be erratic even with a custody order but at least you have a way to document to court that she isn't capable of complying with the court system, much less you.

That's what happened in my case. Courts sat by as I heaped a 3 mile high mound of documentation in front of them, and then when sunlight revealed that n/BPDx couldn't comply with court orders, boom. Suddenly they took my piles of documents to heart and eventually I ended up with full custody.

My ex was a former trial attorney who represented himself in court. If you have any concerns that your ex could provoke you in court, make sure someone is representing you. One of the things that sunk n/BPDx was that his issues were out in the open for all to see. More than any other forum, in court you have to be deferential and well-behaved. No eye-rolling, heavy sighing, no non-verbal cues that you're irritated or you can be held in contempt of court.

What kinds of things did you say via text message to your ex?

[formflier]

I don't think it matters who files first.  However..ask this specifically to you L.

I do think  it matters for you that it is file quickly..because that will get you the quickest path to "structure".

You are obviously tired of getting jerked around (understatement of the year..right?)

So..right now your "no" is backed up by ..what? 

After you get something court ordered your "no" is backed up by what?

Which of those situations would you rather be in?

Best,

FF

[MeandThee29]

My T had told me to "not pick up the rope when she tosses at you to play tug of war".

Try to regroup and move forward. .

It took me so long to learn that. It just isn't worth pointing out things and engaging. I don't have custody issues, but it's still hard.

Everything goes through my lawyer now, so that prevents it for me.

Tough stuff.

[livednlearned]

There can be a slight advantage in filing first only because it helps to set the pace of when things happen.

If you wait for her to file, then you are waiting for her to file and all the other paperwork that flows from that.

[Harri]

This thread has been locked and split due to length.  Part 2 is here:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339002.msg13071614#msg13071614

Thank you.