Struggling this last week

[Carguy]

Hey everyone, so I'm struggling the last week or so. My heart really wants to break no contact with my ex BPD but it has been five weeks now without any communication and upon the advice of this board and my therapist (and my mind) I have remained no contact.

To be completely honest my heart really hopes that I will bump into her at the grocery store or something just to say hi and ask how she's doing and if she is okay.

Like I have said before, the last we talked she told me we could no longer be friends or talk because it brought up feelings in her for me that she feels guilty for having because she is trying to start a relationship with a new man. I have not looked at her Facebook or anything this whole time until the other day when my friend told me that she still just had a profile picture of herself only on there (she recently changed from an older picture of just herself) and still has pictures of her and I, her and my son, and some of my other family (from our vacation to see them) in her photo album which is actually unusual for her because she does not have pictures of her and any other ex-boyfriends in there and when she was with her last boyfriend she had a picture of them together and took it down and immediately put a picture of us together up when we started dating. To be honest it makes me question if she exaggerated or thought the guy was more interested in her than he was or something.

I know it is probably best for me to remain no contact like was advised here and by my therapist so I remain that way for now but I still struggle with it. I miss being able to talk to her. When she was on her good side I enjoyed conversations with her.

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[Radcliff]

It sounds like you're doing a good job of staying on the plan you set, but it's still very hard, and the feelings you're having are totally natural.  When someone is such a big part of our life, those patterns don't change easily -- we think of them all the time for a while.

What are you doing to fill the void?  Are there activities you used to do that you could pick up again?  Friends to spend time with or reconnect with?  Spending time in the outdoors, even if just for a walk?  The advice to get busy doing other things is old, and not meant to minimize the pain of the breakup, but slowly, over time, it works.  Have you had some time to start finding your post-relationship self?

RC

[Carguy]

Actually I have. I'm proud to say for the last month I have been working out daily to P90X and doing the P90X diet. To date I have lost almost 15 pounds and I have noticed that I am increasing in my reps on my exercises. I have also joined the Utah heavy Athletics Association and I'm going to start competing in the Highland Games come November. I have set my goal to start competing then. I have also became more involved at the games with helping clean up and such and getting to know the people in the group. I've really been enjoying that.

 I do have a confession however. Today as I was driving down the street I seen my ex BPD getting ready to pull out so I stopped and talked to her. I asked her if she still wanted the kittens that she asked for since I am getting ready to find homes for them. She said I could sell them or whatever and I told her I could hold them for her if she wanted. We actually talked for a little bit and I think it was actually good for me. In the past I would have a yearning to try to work things out and get back together but this time I really did not feel that. It felt more like talking to an old friend than it did trying to get back with the ex that I missed so dearly.

We kind of chatted about what we have been up to lately in our lives and I did thank her for the things she did do for me. In therapy and through reading I have been learning a lot about my 'nice guy personality' and the issues I have with abandonment because of my mother. My last therapy visit was really hard when we started diving into my mother and how it tied into my relationships in the past and especially the recent one. I honestly fought back tears as we talk on this subject. It really rocked my world and surprise me as how hard it hit me.

In the past when we would start talking immediately after I would text her and tell her it was good to see her or text her that night and we would start texting back and forth again. This time I did not feel any need for that. She said she would come over this weekend to get her grandmother's flowers out of my flower bed and I told her that would be fine and we parted with one-armed friendship type hug and I did not feel that deep want to try to bring her back to me as a girlfriend. It really was rather interesting to myself.

These are my feelings tonight. I'm not sure if they will change in the future or not or if I will start feeling lonely and longing for her again but today actually talking to her kind of surprised me. Maybe something inside me is changing.

[Radcliff]

To be completely honest my heart really hopes that I will bump into her at the grocery store or something just to say hi and ask how she's doing and if she is okay.

Sounds like it worked out!

Wow, you are really nailing it with the physical training and finding community around that!  In a similar situation I picked up an outdoor sport I hadn't done in a couple of decades, and it worked wonders.  Great job!  Also glad to hear that your feelings when you see her are evolving in a direction that feels healthy to you.

RC

[Carguy]

Thanks Radcliff!

There is a part of me that still wishes it would have worked out between us and it would be like it was in the beginning.

She is still struggling with some things in her life and I told her that I do still care and love her and if she ever needs to talk she knows where to find me and she said okay. I don't want to close the door completely on her or lose her completely out of my life even if we can only be friends. I have known here for 14 years now and I've always thought she was a very special person. I doubt that I will ever stop caring for her.

[Radcliff]

That's great.  It sounds like you had a healing moment.  It's been a few days.  How are things going?

RC

[Carguy]

To be honest I feel pretty horrible this morning. Yesterday I stopped by her apartment and had lunch during my lunch break and towards the end we started playing around tickling and next thing we were having sex. I was trying to stay away from that.

Afterwards we were hugging and she said she was very unsure of things then looked me in the eyes and said "This doesn't mean we're back together" and I told her that I understand.

What I feel really horrible about is last night was my ex-wife's birthday. We have been divorced for 15 years but are still really close friends. Last night my kids and I were all there and she had a few drinks and was kind of hanging on me and hugging me more like a couple. I was just like ok whatever. Later after the kids left she stripped down naked in front of me and next thing I was rubbing her crotch and stimulating her then we stopped (haven't been sexual with my ex-wife in years and years). We did not have intercourse but I have never done anything like this before! I don't want to keep secrets but I think this would be devastating for even a friendship with my ex bpd!

My ex BPD did something similar to this to me a couple of years ago. We were together one weekend taking pictures like we did our first date in the same place we went on our first date. We were not having sex and not together at that moment although I thought we were working on it.  A week later she got naked with someone else and he was giving her oral sex as far as she told me. It does not make what I done right though and I feel just horrible about it.

I feel like a horrible person right now.

[Radcliff]

I can understand how you might feel like a horrible person having had an intimate experience with two women you care about on the same day.  I don't see a horrible person.  A confused person with some boundary struggles perhaps, but not a horrible person.  Both of these women are officially broken up with you, and these consensual encounters weren't anything you planned.  If your BPDex is simply a friend, then an encounter with your wife is not really her business.  The real issue to figure out is how you feel about each of these women.  Can you tell us a bit about that?  Do you want to pursue a relationship with either of them?

RC

[Carguy]

Well my ex-wife and I were divorced in 2005 (after 10 years of marriage) and for the first year or two we wanted nothing to do with each other but after that we became friends again. We have known each other and been friends for over 26 years. We have a great friendship and she is a close friend. As far as a relationship I really don't wish to pursue one with her. I care about her but our marriage did not work out for a reason.

 Honestly there was a lot of similarities between my relationship with my ex BPD and my ex-wife. I think my ex-wife actually has traits of BPD. I know she had sexual abuse in her childhood from her stepfather.

She just got divorced from her second husband about eight months ago and was just recently seeing someone and she told me the other night while she was drinking that it ended and she was feeling upset about it. I think with the alcohol and that ending she was feeling alone and that was why she was coming onto me.

As far as my ex BPD, I'm not sure about a relationship with her. We have spent more time together and things started getting sexual again and then she had second thoughts because she is still unsure about things with her and I and things with her and this other guy. She's upset because this guy doesn't text her very often and doesn't seem interested in her. He lives two and a half hours away from her and has told her he's not ready for a relationship with her but wants to get to know her. She spent the night at my house the other night and cuddled with me but there was no sex. She has been upset the last few days because she doesn't know where we stand as far as a relationship or just a friendship and she wants to be sexual with me and is struggling with that. I told her I care about her and I don't want her to regret having sex with me later because the other guy is still in the picture. I'm trying to be a supportive friend.

Part of me does want a relationship but a big part of me remembers everything that happened in the past and is unsure of anything more than a friendship with her. Refraining from sex with her is hard and I know it upsets her because she wants to quite badly. I think it also makes her feel a little rejected which worries me. In the past if she felt any sexual rejection even if it was unintended it would send her into a rage. It's really quite confusing all of this.

[Radcliff]

It sounds like a confusing situation, but it sounds like you're processing it thoughtfully.  One of the things that's helped me in similar situations is not to expect myself to figure it out right away.  Avoiding any big moves and giving it time to percolate more inside me, and then getting a sense over time of how I'm feeling about things has worked well.

RC

[Carguy]

I'm trying to process it and right now just maintain a friendship with both. To me it's simple with my ex-wife cause I don't want a romance with her. Just a friendship.

With my ex bpd it's not so simple. Part of me wants a relationship but part of me looks at the past and expects the same in the future with the bpd. I do enjoy spending quality time with her but still see some of the past behaviour in her too.

[Radcliff]

What behaviors, if you saw them in her or another potential partner raise the biggest flags for you as far as what's best for you in a relationship?

RC

[Carguy]

She still has moments where she blames me for things. The one that happened the other day and has happened several times in the past is that she tells me something that is bothering her that I didn't know we needed to talk about but then she's upset at me because I didn't bring it up and she doesn't feel I want to talk about things because she has to bring all these things up for us to discuss them and it upsets her. A lot of times I don't even think twice about some of the things. To me I feel like how can we discuss things that are bothering you when I don't know what is bothering you until you bring it up?

Another thing she keeps telling me is that in our relationship in the past we moved too fast. I don't know that we really moved too fast. We were together three and a half years and it was several months before we started talking about marriage because it seemed all so perfect at the time. I would say it was six months in when we started talking about it and agreed that we were almost ready but were still not quite completely ready to take that leap. I don't know exactly what she means by moving too fast.

Her anxiety gets up real quick but I am getting better at realizing when it is happening and validating and talking to her and helping her come back down I have noticed.

[Radcliff]

It sounds like she expects her to read her mind.  For a variety of reasons, pwBPD can have unreasonable expectations about how we should make things better for them, prevent things from becoming bad, or that we are to blame for things and objective observer might think we're not to blame for.  We can't control any of this.  If we're to be successful with them, we need to set aside the injustice of it and see it as a limitation they have.

That's great that you've learned to respond to her anxiety more successfully.  If we can learn to respond to our pwBPD's emotions and reassure them, rather than arguing or being upset at how unreasonable they're being, we can often be successful at diffusing conflict.

What are the signs that tell you her anxiety is coming up and you need to respond?

RC

[Carguy]

Usually she is playful and cheerful but then when it comes up she gets quiet and withdrawn and starts pulling away from me and pushing me away. I can also tell when she starts getting real sharp with me and impatient.

So last weekend we spent Sunday together and went up by the creek and on our bike path up by the river, two beautiful places. I showed her the old train tunnel that she has heard about but never seen and we were cuddly and it was romantic. Even she thought so.

 Yesterday she was telling me that it really bothers her that the guy she was going to start seeing when she broke up with me this last time won't respond to her. It fizzled before it got off the ground. He told her he was on the fence about having a relationship with her and wasn't ready for one. He wouldn't respond to her very much on text messages and now won't at all hasn't for weeks and she is worried about going to her retreat next year where he'll be there and having weirdness between them. It's really bothering her. I told her it sounded like she still was interested in him and she got upset with me.

She also is upset with me because last weekend after our romantic day she asked me if we were together and I told her I didn't know and she said she didn't know either. We didn't talk about it after that and yesterday she was upset because we had a romantic day but we weren't together. She said she felt jipped and used. I told her I thought we were taking it slow and she said that's what couples do.

 She started bringing up the past and blaming me for hurting her and telling me she did nothing wrong and told me I just wanted to be mean to her in the past. I would get upset and react out of emotion but the way she words it makes it sound like I enjoyed being mean to her or something. I don't feel I was necessarily mean to her and I surely wasn't because I enjoy it. I would get upset and argue with her because I didn't understand things. I disagree with the way she says it but I didn't know how to respond because I could tell she was getting triggered so I was quiet. That upset her even more because she said silence upsets her even more.

 She started hinting that maybe I should go home because we weren't talking. I told her I didn't know what to say for sure and she told me that I should tell her that instead of remaining quiet. I left and then came back because I was trying to get out of the cycle we have been in the past and told her I wasn't sure how to respond and I was worried about triggering her and it ended up through talkin she went into a panic attack and today she will hardly respond to my text messages. I told her good morning and asked how she was and she responded but later in the day she just quit responding to my text messages. I don't know if I should text and asked if I should back off for a while or if I should just leave her alone and let her respond and her time.

[Carguy]

And you are very correct on her thinking I should be able to reach her mine! I've told her several times in the past that I cannot read her mind was she insist that I should be able to know exactly what is going on I know exactly what to do to comfort her or what exactly to give her. She tells me she doesn't believe I know how to be in a relationship and how to give in a relationship and be there for the other person in a relationship.

[Radcliff]

The turbulence you're experiencing and frustration you're feeling is familiar to most of our members here.  The good news is that you can learn some tools that can improve things.  One of the first tips is to learn how not to “justify, argue, defend, or explain” (JADE).  Let us know what you think about that article.  Does it seem like following that advice might help reduce friction and hard feelings between you and your SO?

RC

[Carguy]

Honestly it sounds like it would. In the past when I didn't know about BPD I would do these things and it would make matters worse. I'm going to read up more on this. The more I can learn the better I am I believe.

So last weekend we spent a romantic Sunday together walking by the river and all of that and later she asked me if we were together. I told her I didn't know and she responded and told me she didn't know either. We didn't talk about it and for the next few days things were okay but then Friday she was having a down day and brought up the past and told me that in the past she believes I was being a jerk to her because I wanted to (and liked to) and that we spend a romantic weekend together and she felt jipped because when she asked and I said I didn't know and we didn't talk about it to her it confirm that we were not. Then when I didn't talk for a while because I didn't know what to say about her believing I wanted to be a jerk like I liked it or something she got upset even more and it triggered her because silence is worse for her apparently. I didn't know how to respond to what she was saying because I don't agree but I didn't want to trigger her more.

She said maybe I should go home so I left for a little bit and came back because I wanted to talk a little more and she agreed but she was already triggered and later told me continuing to talk about it made it worse and traumatized her. She admitted that she kept talking even though it was making things worse.

We talked Monday and she told me how all weekend was hard for her because of Friday. She said if I would have went home it would have been hard and by coming back it was hard. She didn't know what would have been the best for her but thinks that going home might not have been the best but it might have been better than coming back.

After we talked for awhile Monday she said maybe we can only be friends. She asked me what I thought and we talked some more and to me it was like part of her believed we would never be able to be a couple but then the other part of her seemed like she didn't want anything less than a couple. I told her that we should just be friends and work towards learning how to be a couple. Basically be friends now and work towards having a relationship.

Since then she hardly has responded to my text messages and when I asked she tells me it's because she is busy with school. When I am over there things seem a little different. I understand her being busy but to me her not responding to text messages and her acting distant and maybe a little annoyed or something it seems like she is upset and punishing me for not jumping right back into a relationship with her. Maybe I'm wrong but something is definitely off.

Part of my thought is just to back off and text her less and not see her as often. Give her space. The other part of me wonders if that is the wrong move though.

[Radcliff]

Learning how to validate is a very important relationship skill.  When you don't agree with what your partner is saying, but they're upset, a tremendously useful tool is partial validation.  Emotions are always valid.  Partial validation involves validating her emotions, as well as any portion of the facts that you can agree on (for example, if you were 5 minutes late and she says you were 30 minutes late and hate her, simply apologize for being late).

It's hard when our partner is out of touch with us and we can't tell if they are mad or simply busy.  We're on edge because of the volatile history of the relationship, and our anxiety about our needs.  Hang in there and try to remain calm.  Tell yourself that she may be busy and that you'll eventually reconnect.

Take her at face value and act as if she's busy at school.  In that situation, you'd likely back off a bit to give her space to work, while periodically reaching out to give her support.  Short communications that say you're thinking about her, communications that don't require a response, are the safest.  Perhaps say you're looking forward to talking with her more when school cools down a bit.

RC

[Carguy]

I talked to her the other day and she told me she was really busy and then she said she was trying to decide what she wanted between us.

I then talk to her tonight and the other day when I asked her what the options were with what she wanted between us she said it started triggering her and making her feel pressured. She also told me she was excited about something the other day and I asked her what it was and she wouldn't tell me so I ask her again and then asked her "You're not going to tell me?" That triggered her as well.

 We talk tonight about couples counseling and triggering and that we need to say something and then stop talking and walk away when either of us feel triggered. She said that we should just stay friends and I asked her friends only or friends with the possibility of a relationship like we were talking about the other day? She didn't know. Then she started asking what I thought about dating other people and I asked her if she wanted to and she said that I'm just putting it back on her and wanted to know what I thought. I told her I would like to work towards a relationship And that I'm not looking to date anybody right now if that answered anything.

She still wasn't sure what she wanted and we were talking about boundaries and she told me that me living in fear ( of losing her or anything else) triggers her too. I told her I wasn't going to live in fear anymore. I told her if she wants to date others then she had every right to do so and only wanted to be friends that was fine and I understood and then I told her I don't want to force her to stay with me if she doesn't want to be with me. I told her that I want to be in a relationship with somebody who knows they want to be in a relationship with me. I then said that's just the way it is and she immediately told me she was feeling triggered and I needed to go. I asked her if she wanted to talk at a later date and she said she couldn't talk right now. I told her to let me know and left.

Part of me feels good that I just came out and told her that I want somebody who wants to be with me because I believe I deserve that but then part of me worries that maybe I shouldn't have said that?

[Radcliff]

It's not a bad idea to be honest about what you need.  Honest with both yourself and with her.

It sounds like she is feeling some pressure from your eagerness to resolve things?

Sometimes it can be tough to talk about the relationship, especially if one or both people are feeling pressure.  It's best if we can talk about relationships, but if it's not working well, we can also take a break from talking about it and demonstrate where we are with actions.  One option would be to just act like a friend who's open to deeper romance for a bit, and see how it goes.

RC

[once removed]

The one that happened the other day and has happened several times in the past is that she tells me something that is bothering her that I didn't know we needed to talk about but then she's upset at me because I didn't bring it up and she doesn't feel I want to talk about things because she has to bring all these things up for us to discuss them and it upsets her.

at the end of the day, shes saying she doesnt feel listened to or heard. in these relationships, it often falls on us to do a little bit extra when it comes to that.

Another thing she keeps telling me is that in our relationship in the past we moved too fast. I don't know that we really moved too fast.

that you disagree is okay. meeting in the middle is more important. things felt too fast for her. shes communicating to you something she found fundamentally difficult about the relationship; it may even be bigger than just feeling you moved too fast. it may be that she had fundamental problems with the relationship and advanced it in spite of them. the more you can ascertain what inhibits her, the better you can go forward.

She also is upset with me because last weekend after our romantic day she asked me if we were together and I told her I didn't know and she said she didn't know either.

women will often lead these discussions, when it comes to where the relationship stands. she had a romantic moment with you and wanted to know what it meant to you. without being overbearing, it would have been good to tell her where you were hoping things were going, what it meant to you.

I disagree with the way she says it but I didn't know how to respond because I could tell she was getting triggered so I was quiet. That upset her even more because she said silence upsets her even more.
...
she told me that I should tell her that instead of remaining quiet.

reverse the roles. if you had a romantic moment, youd likely be wanting to know where you stood. if you didnt find out, you might be resentful, that your feelings werent being taken into consideration. silence is taken as confirmation.

I told her if she wants to date others then she had every right to do so and only wanted to be friends that was fine and I understood and then I told her I don't want to force her to stay with me if she doesn't want to be with me. I told her that I want to be in a relationship with somebody who knows they want to be in a relationship with me.

shes hearing, repeatedly, that you want to be friends and she should date others.

is that what you want?