BPD and the Legal System

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Is there any way, and if so how, to uncover the damage that a pwBPD is doing to her children?  I know when CPS or DFS comes for a visit, they "see" the things in the environment - kids have food available, beds to sleep in, cleanliness, clothes to wear, etc...

Does anyone have any idea how to go about making the people who matter in our system the damage that is being imposed on these children that are not "visible," to them making visits, leaving and saying everything looked fine. 

How does this mental disorder come to the attention of those who matter; those that can do something to help the children who are affected by this parent?  What if they have the belief that making their daughter be someone who everyone is a little afraid of and not give a crap about what others think of them?  What if this child is already having problems at school with bullying others?  What if these same children she is bullying, she continues to bully and make their lives miserable.  These are the same children who one day may be a school shooter to get back at their bullies. 

This may all sound pretty dramatic, but to me it seems to have a domino effect if it is not seen and stopped in some way by others - especially the others being in a position who can and will do something about it?

Many say, you can't control them, you can't cure them, and you didn't cause their disorder.  I understand all of this and agree with it.  But these are not reasons to look the other way and act as though it doesn't exist while innocent children are being so negatively affected.

[Angie59]

Is there any way, and if so how, to uncover the damage that a pwBPD is doing to her children?  I know when CPS or DFS comes for a visit, they "see" the things in the environment - kids have food available, beds to sleep in, cleanliness, clothes to wear, etc...

Does anyone have any idea how to go about making the people who matter in our system the damage that is being imposed on these children that are not "visible," to them making visits, leaving and saying everything looked fine. 

How does this mental disorder come to the attention of those who matter; those that can do something to help the children who are affected by this parent?  What if they have the belief that making their daughter be someone who everyone is a little afraid of and not give a crap about what others think of them?  What if this child is already having problems at school with bullying others?  What if these same children she is bullying, she continues to bully and make their lives miserable.  These are the same children who one day may be a school shooter to get back at their bullies. 

This may all sound pretty dramatic, but to me it seems to have a domino effect if it is not seen and stopped in some way by others - especially the others being in a position who can and will do something about it?

Many say, you can't control them, you can't cure them, and you didn't cause their disorder.  I understand all of this and agree with it.  But these are not reasons to look the other way and act as though it doesn't exist while innocent children are being so negatively affected.

[worriedStepmom]

CPS or other agencies will get involved when there is emotional or verbal abuse, but only if it as at a reallllllly bad state - usually worse than most BPD people get.

Get the kids in counseling when they are old enough.  A counselor can help identify how bad the effects are on the child as well as give the child tools for how to cope.

And there's legal action.  In a custody modification, a judge will consider the BPD parent's words and actions and their effect on the child.  But that has to be documented in some way.

[ForeverDad]

I recall when I called CPS twice on my spouse, several months before we separated and divorced, both staffers asked, "Did she rage at only you?  Then call back if/when she rages at the child."  One  of them said there was similar conflict in her childhood home and her mother later resolved it with divorce.  Evidently there is some point where poor behavior which is seen as "not actionable" can veer into abuse territory and becomes "actionable".  If you're unclear on how that distinction is determined in your county, inquire.

My then-separated spouse put my son into counseling before he was 4 years old.  My lawyer said courts love counseling.  So once I got Shared Parenting in the final decree I was able to take him to half his appointments.  The counselors got to see the differences between me and my ex.

[livednlearned]

Is there any way, and if so how, to uncover the damage that a pwBPD is doing to her children?  

My sense is that third-party involvement would be much more effective if your son was more motivated to advocate for his child.

Our kids are part of specific family systems, so when professionals look at who is doing what, they are looking at what is relatively likely given who is involved. Dad needs to be a grown-up, responding to his kids' welfare in an adult way if mom is behaving impulsively and is self-serving or negligent, not to mention abusive.

I get the sense that CPS and other agencies are accustomed to seeing two sides of the same coin and they assume bad parenting goes together. Both parents have shortcomings that aren't good for the child. In their own ways, neither parent is showing up, although one parent may be worse.

When I locked in to my son's well-being and became his advocate despite the repercussions, people in the system treated me different. I think they don't see as many parent dyads where one is ready to problem solve for the well-being of the kids. The court system (through my lawyer) would say, "You won't get that" and I ignored them because I knew it was better to forge ahead and try than give up and let the system flatten us.

People who end up in BPD relationships don't tend to see abuse clearly for whatever reason.

That makes us typical problem parents until proven otherwise when it comes to the system.

I don't know specifically about CPS altho I suspect there's a lot of variation in quality. My experience has been with parent coordinators and co-parenting counselors, in addition to the usual lawyers, judges, etc. It could be different with CPS but who knows.

Your biggest frustration, I would imagine, is your son's relative passivity.

How are things going with him?

[Angie59]

Good morning and thank you for your replies!  Each of your responses make perfect sense to me and I see what you are saying.  I also see that you understand something about my son that is part of the problem.

I think we have all agreed at one time or another that after a relationship with a BPD, therapy to work on yourself, to be able to choose healthy relationships, to see things more clearly, to be a better parent, etc...and I so agree with all of that!

What all of you have brought up is my son.  I think therein lies part of the problem which is certainly very frustrating for me.  I believe I mentioned, forgive me if I'm repeating, that his work offers counseling for employees and allows 6 free sessions, which we mentioned to him about taking advantage of after the breakup and even said whenever you schedule them we will take care of our grandson, so no worries about a babysitter.  So he was totally free, no excuses, to go and take advantage of this.  He chose to not do this because "he felt better now than he did when he was with her and feels more self confident as well."  Yep, those were his words.  So no therapy for him - he doesn't need it (according to him).  We could suggest a counselor for our grandson but he would not see any reason whatsoever in that because he claims that he goes with his mom willingly and is happy when he is with her - so he doesn't see what the counseling would be for.

Now that they are separated (by the way she is already engaged), and lives in a different place, we no longer see her and her interactions with the children.  We are going on what she was like when we spent five years around her and the kids and what took place.  Supposedly her daughter (almost 6 years old now) is in therapy for further school problem related to bullying other children.  This has gone on for 3 years now - the bullying, not the therapy.  Since the statement about therapy came from my son's ex-uBPD, who is a pathological liar, who knows if she is in therapy or not?  Who also knows what is going on over at her house with the kids?  I truly do not believe she would "change" suddenly to be a great mom.

Yes, I am very, very frustrated with my son.  He is seeing (just dating) someone right now and has had several dates with her and seems smitten with this person and tells us she is opposite to what his prior ex was.  He made this comment about whenever she meets our grandson:  "I hope GS3 take to her because I don't want her to get her feelings hurt."

Okay, I'm sure you all see the problem with that comment.  It's *%&-backwards!  Hello...he is 3 years old.  It should, to me, be I hope GS3 is happy and takes to new girlfriend because I want this to be a positive thing for him. 

He's not seeing that he is only 3 years old - he cannot be responsible for his feelings at 3 and can even find it hard to express them properly.  She is the adult.  This is on her, not on our GS3!  How in the world the a 3 year old end up being responsible whether this goes smoothly or not.  His new girlfriend is 27, no kids of her own, and is an English Literature teacher for 6th graders.  So, yes she sounds like she probably has more on the ball than the ex, and will hopefully have some good education about children in general that she will take the high road and do what is right and feel it is really her place to work with GS3 and their relationship - not GS3's job.

This is why I suggested therapy for him- he is still in the mode obviously of impressing who he is with and worrying about keeping them happy, doesn't want to risk making them unhappy probably out of fear they will not stay in the relationship.  There are probably many other unhealthy thoughts/feelings he has that I don't even know about.  He is also adamant about "keeping the peace" (nothing new there) with the ex because he takes his son whenever she gives up her time with him due to other plans and he says he will get more of what he wants, which is time with his son, if they get along nicely with each other rather than have conflict.  They still do not have anything in writing legally - just doing a 50/50 thing on their own and he says it works for them.  Of course for him the longer they don't legalize it, the longer he is not having to pay any child support and at this point in time, he is so financially drained he had to ask us for money before one of his utilities was shut off! 

So, I guess I got somewhat off subject here, but as I'm writing this, maybe it is more about my son rather than trying to uncover the ex-uBPD's issues. 

The last 5-1/2 years of my life have been so affected by their relationship as I have never met anyone with this type of behavior before (the ex-uBPD), I actually feel like I have PTSD from it!  I know that may sound crazy, but I spent many nights awakened by nightmares of the kids, how they were treated, how my son was treated, her taking trips with other men, not to mention the river of tears I cried over situations.  I tried and tried to have a relationship with her, but it never worked.  I even blamed myself many times. 

With that said, I don't even really want to meet this new girl, as I don't want all this extra baggage to carry over to her in some way or another.  I don't know - it seems like it has effected me far greater than my other son and husband, but they too have their issues with it all.  I know I'm preaching to the choir here, since all of us have been affected in some way. 

I think you guys are great with your responses and they mean a lot to me and have been very, very helpful.  I would love to know what you all think of what I have just written and how to move forward for myself in the most healthy way I can. 

Thank you all!   

[ForeverDad]

He chose to not do employer sponsored counseling because "he felt better now than he did when he was with her and feels more self confident as well."  Yep, those were his words.  So no therapy for him - he doesn't need it (according to him).  We could suggest a counselor for our grandson but he would not see any reason whatsoever in that because he claims that he goes with his mom willingly and is happy when he is with her - so he doesn't see what the counseling would be for.

Here's an example of just how important counseling can be.  As I recall, the private parts were described as the areas of the body covered by a swim suit:

I was never told much about {the counselor's} play therapy.  One of the few times I was told details was when the T in review asked son, "Whose private parts can you touch?"  He replied, "Mommy's."  It should have been, "Mine."

In my case, I recall my son's therapist informing me that she had to teach him about each person's private areas (very simple, what is covered by a bathing suit) and she asked, "Whose private areas can you touch?"  She expected him to say "Mine" but he answered, "Mother's."   The therapist saw that as a concern and worked with him on that matter but didn't call CPS about it.

[Angie59]

I'm puzzled why CPS or someone wasn't called in about it.  How did you feel when no one in authority wasn't called?