Does the pwBPD consciously know they are gaslighting?

[tryingforzen]

Mod Note:  This post was split from another thread as the topic merits it's own discussion   https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=340035.msg13081284#msg13081284

Especially days where I start to wonder if it isn't all in my head (hello, gaslighting, you are there even when not being actively...gaslit. Ha.)

YES!  I have many days where I feel like what I am doing is "right" (for me, right now), but I also have days where I wake up feeling like I am crazy and maybe I'm totally overreacting.  I googled "gaslighting" from your post.  (I had an idea of what it was but wanted a better understanding).  I found this article...  https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/here-there-and-everywhere/201701/11-warning-signs-gaslighting.  Holy cow!  

The thing I'm trying to wrap my head around...  does the BPD consciously know they are doing this?  And does the answer to that make it's effect on us any more or less damaging?

[zachira]

In response to your question, I was once told by a therapist with many years in the profession that there is always an explanation for why people are the way they are when we get to hear the depths of their life stories. From my experience, nobody really wants to be a bad person. I find it easier sometimes to have compassion for people who are acting badly rather than try to figure out their irrational behaviors. Certainly people do horrible things and they are sometimes fully aware that what they are doing is extremely hurtful to their victims, yet at the same time to want to hurt another so badly likely means that the person feels badly about who he/she is. Just my two cents, and clearly there are different considerations to think of depending on the person and how they use destructive behaviors to hurt others.

[Harri]

Excellent question and topic so i decided to split it out so we can all talk about it.

The term gaslighting has become very popular, especially recently, however, I don't think there is one clear and consistent definition that everyone shares.  Because of the lack of consistency and over application of the term to events that are often better described as arugments, JADEing, denial, distraction, etc. many clinicians do not use the word.  There is so much variation in how the term is understood that there really is no meaningful use for it on this board.

That said, I have used that term to describe some of my mother's behaviors in the past.    It was (and still is when I am angry and want to lash out) a lazy way to catalogue a particular behavior she had with her symptoms but it offered me nothing productive in terms of really understanding what was going on, how to respond to it and knowing and being confident in my reality.  

The term also carries a connotation of conflict and combatting the behavior rather than dealing with it in more constructive ways.  It was and is only when I look at my moms behaviors and my responses to them without easy/lazy terms that do not force me to do the hard work that I make any sort of progress in terms of understanding what I experienced.  I do not want to add more conflict, anger and combative thoughts into my narrative.

Is this behavior on the part of a BPD deliberate?  Define deliberate.  I define it as well thought out and planned action.
Miriam Webster:
de·lib·er·ate
adjective
/dəˈlib(ə)rət/
done consciously and intentionally.
verb
/diˈlibəˌrāt/
engage in long and careful consideration.

I do not see most of the dysfunctional behaviors we talk about here as being done consciously and with intent (to hurt, destroy, etc) or the pwBPD engaging in *careful* consideration before acting.

BPD is a disorder of emotional regulation.  A lot of the emotions never fully surface and what we see are desperate attempts to make them go away, or to self-soothe.  Denial, distraction, projection etc all come into play.  If I were to attach the word deliberate to a particular disorder and the behaviors associated with it, it would be ASPD (anti-social personal disorder) and possibly NPD, but definitely not BPD.  

Do some pwBPD lash out in anger and seek revenge?  Sure.  But so do a lot of undiagnosed people.  Just read the boards here and you will see it, members taking deliberate action to hurt, put down, deny, distract, confuse and even to seek revenge against their pwBPD.  It, unfortunately, is a part of human behavior to want to lash out.  That said, pwBPD can and will often take it to an extreme.  

The thing I'm trying to wrap my head around...  does the BPD consciously know they are doing this?

I would say no and I think most of the reputable and vetted research and articles written by well respected people in the field would agree.  

And does the answer to that make it's effect on us any more or less damaging?

I think we run the risk of increasing the hurt and damage by using words that amplify our upset rather than center us so we can deal with the very real damage that does occur regardless of intent.  We can choose to use words and how we look at things that will have a significant impact on our ability to heal and limit our exposure to such damaging behaviors.   Whether that limiting involves working on self-differentiation and learning better communication tools that can help things not escalate or by reducing how often we are exposed to such behavior until we can learn better coping skills is something else we can choose.  We do have agency.  

Edit:  was writing while zachira posted.  Yes, what she said too.  We just can't make generalizations and they really serve no purpose. 

[TelHill]

In my experience, I am going with no.  It assumes a psychologically sound person engaging in rational thinking.  

My bpd mom does do this on her own. I am guessing it's a defense mechanism against feeling powerless and inferior. It's looks impulsive.  I will ask if she's lying and I can't gently break through it.

On the other hand, enabler dad will goad my mom to gaslight with him.  He knows what he's doing.  I ask her if she's being honest and if this is true when he's out of the room. She will easily tell me the truth. She will apologize.

My mom is like a kid emotionally. When she gaslights on her own she looks like she's dissociating.

Maybe some bpd family members premeditate their gaslighting. I don't know.

[tryingforzen]

Soo..  it makes me feel better, I think, to know that a lot of the behaviors are impulsive and not pre-meditated.  But I guess I am not in the head space, yet, to deal with my mom from a place of compassion.  I think I am still just so angry and resentful for all the years of mistreatment and letting her continually act out without standing up for myself.  And granted, I have not had it anywhere near as bad as some of the others here that I have read about.  I am currently NC.  I say that I am NC bc she has not come around to accepting the boundaries I have put out there (or even acknowledged them), but I think I am also just scared that I don't know how to act with her at all other than rolling over and letting her have her way and destroying me (mentally & emotionally) in the process.  Does the compassion and forgiveness come with time?

[Harri]

Soo..  it makes me feel better, I think, to know that a lot of the behaviors are impulsive and not pre-meditated.

Good.  My emotional response will be different when I see things as being deliberate and meant to hurt me and in my experience that only hurts me more and makes it harder for me to take appropriate action.

But I guess I am not in the head space, yet, to deal with my mom from a place of compassion.

This too is good.  I mean that you recognize that you are not ready right now.  You do not have to have compassion right now.  As a matter of fact, trying to force it too soon can be harmful.  also, I believe allowing yourself to get angry is a requirement for grieving and eventually coming to a place of compassion. 

That is one of the reasons why I really like the way we link boundaries to personal values here.   If we value treating people with respect then the fact that we can not feel that much compassion for them will be easier to deal with.  Same thing if we are angry.  Our values will dictate our behaviors as well as serve as a moral compass for when we get off track.

I think I am still just so angry and resentful for all the years of mistreatment and letting her continually act out without standing up for myself.

The greatest amount of anger I had was exactly what you said here.  It took a while before I realized I was just as angry with myself as I was with my family. 

I say that I am NC bc she has not come around to accepting the boundaries I have put out there (or even acknowledged them), but I think I am also just scared that I don't know how to act with her at all other than rolling over and letting her have her way and destroying me (mentally & emotionally) in the process.

What sort of boundaries have you tried to set?  If you provide details we can trouble shoot if needed. 

You can practice setting boundaries with other safer people.  You can do that here too. 

I had to be pretty hard line with boundaries when i first started with them and also because my mother was relentless and I was terrified.  It takes time.

Compassion and forgiveness take time and yes, they do come.   You can't force them.

[Pilpel]

Does the pwBPD consciously know they are gaslighting? 

I've really struggled with this question dealing with my personality disordered SIL.  How aware is she of what she's doing?  Before I learned about personality disorders, I thought she was severely mentally ill.  But as I've gotten to know her more, I've seen that she's very intelligent.  She has very good comprehension skills.  And when put on the spot, after some talking, she will make very honest statements.  For instance, she has admitted to being motivated by jealousy when she once raged and belittled us.  She has admitted to remembering the first time, when she was a child, when she realized that it felt good to use her anger to intimidate someone.  I think my SIL is more on the narcissistic side than BPD, so I don't want to say that my beliefs and observations of my SIL are what is true for all people with a personality disorder.  What I think is that she knows that she is hurting others or twisting facts around.  But other people's wants, needs, pain, and frustrations are insignificant to her own wants and needs.  And I think she perceives certain people as being deserving of her rage and punishment.  And I'm one of those people.  And I also think that she is somewhat calculated when she makes honest statements about herself.  I don't know about all people.  I've been on her devalue list from the beginning, so I don't know if there are some people that she shows more esteem toward. 

[Turkish]

From
Understanding The Borderline Mother, Chapter 1: Make Believe Mothers

 
Some borderlines consciously distort the truth in order to prevent abandonment, maintainself-esteem, or avoid conflict. Others may lie to evoke sympathy, attention, and concern.

From the borderline’s perspective, however, lying feels essential to survival. (Althoughnot all borderlines consciously lie, all borderlines experience perceptional distortions.)

When desperation drives behavior such as lying or stealing, they feel innocent ofwrongdoing and do not feel guilt or remorse. Apologies are rare, therefore, and borderlinesmay be confused about why others expect them to feel remorse. They believe that otherswould do what they did in order to survive. Their explanation is succinct, “But Ihad to!” Thus the borderline is unconcerned with the consequences of lying because shefeels she had no other option.