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Author Topic: I have a female friend who invited me to her house this coming weekend.  (Read 907 times)
RomanticFool
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« on: October 18, 2019, 12:01:47 AM »

I have a female friend who invited me to her house this coming weekend. She made it clear that she has feelings for me and wants me physically. We have been spending time going to galleries and to the cinema and I had no idea she felt this way about me. On Wednesday we had a coffee and I explained my entire relationship history to her. I told her that I wake up every morning thinking of my ex and that I am not in a position where I could have any kind of emotional or sexual r/s with her or anybody else right now. I told her that I need to heal and that I am grateful for her friendship. I don’t think I’ve ever been so honest with a woman in my life. I am committed to not making the same mistakes again.
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« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2019, 01:53:25 AM »

Hey RF , hope you're doing well. Sorry been so busy to reply properly...

yeah... I don't think any of us expects anyone to be NPD or BPD when we get into a r/s ... I'm sorry you went through that.

Sometimes others want to blame you of having Narcissistic qualities to deflect the blame off of their behavior.. my ubpdexbf told me he thinks his T (the ONE time I had proof of him going..) said that she thinks I'M the one with BPD... which my T has confirmed 100% I don't have. It is easier I think for lots of people, even non's, who are so ashamed of things they've done, to apologize and own up to it.

Yeah... being angry SOMETIMES isn't a sign of NPD at all... it's a sign of being frustrated and JADEing or not being able to handle the person.. sometimes some people with disorders end up making us feel dysregulated as well because unless we can keep our composure ALL the time, we get sucked into the energies.

Being a narcissist is a whole diff. ball game... my one best friend is actually diagnosed ADHD and NPD ... she's a full on diagnosed NPD and I can tell you, she has no empathy whatsoever. She's been going to therapy for a while so she's developed a bit for VERY FEW people in her life but overall she has some faked empathy also she will mirror me with... like "oh I'm sorry to hear that honey, feel better..." but literally two seconds later, she's backing talking about herself. Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) They're a very very diff. breed. At least I appreciate her honesty in the sense that with me, she doesn't bs. and if she doesn't want to listen to me she straight up tells me "honestly I don't give a f aout what you're talking about now so I'm zoning out" LOL. I've just learned not to take it personally anymore, and she's SUPER fun to party with and actually very sarcastic and hilarious (as long as her rage isn't directed at you..)... and sometimes I admire the bravery she has putting herself out there ... but sometimes when I see the motive behind her bravery I'm not so jealous anymore. Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) she has a lot of revengeful behavior and does some nasty , nasty things most people wouldn't even DREAM of doing to others (maybe have THOUGHTS of doing it, but never actually follow through with it like she does). So moral of the story... you're probably not a narcissist. Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

You should be proud of yourself for telling this new woman that you're not interested and not willing to lead her on... good for you! You must have felt great... it's the best feeling being able to be open and honest. I actually met a guy at the gym a few weeks ago and he's been hitting on me WAY more since he knows my ex and I broke up and I did the exact same thing as you... straight up said, no. Not ready AT ALL. nowhere NEAR it. and then people's true intentions show through... the friends who genuinely want to be friends will stay in your life.. the ones who wanted to just sleep with you, leave. C'est la vie. But I bet you feel fantastic in the sense you were able to do this for yourself. Keep it up! Smiling (click to insert in post)
Allow yourself this time to heal and grieve and feel every feeling you're going through: anger, sadness, happiness, loss, nostalgia, etc. I think it helps us heal faster just remembering everything. Even the good. Even now , I wish my ex would reach out but then it's like what would I say? I think back to when he blocked me last week and ask myself if any of it was my fault? And my answer was no... some things, like the JADEing, I could have altered. But overall, he needs to also take responsibility for his actions. We all do. Only way we are going to grow. Learning from our own mistakes as well.
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RomanticFool
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« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2019, 04:58:31 AM »

Hey Secretgirl,

Thank you for your message. This is one of the most accurate posts I’ve read pertaining to my situation.

I was definitely guilty of JADE regarding my ex and if there’s one thing I regret it’s getting into protracted WhatsApp arguments when I could have been spending the time much more wisely trying to understand her.

I also have huge regrets that I allowed myself to get into an affair situation because I felt justified in doing so on the grounds my wife and I hadn’t been intimate for 10 years. I felt I deserved some love.

Given the fact that my wife and I are now breaking up and she has a new partner, I have considered that having told her about having a ‘crush’ on the new woman two weeks in the affair, I should have had courage and followed through and allowed myself to have a real r/s with my ex. Instead  of which we got into a clandestine affair, sneaking around. My ex even warned me at the beginning of the r/s that if I took too long to leave my marriage, things would become toxic. Originally I was going to move in with my ex as a temporary measure but I felt it was too soon and the offer of respite from a broken marriage became about me paying her money. I felt this would make things stressful and uncertain and had the good sense to stay in my home. I’ve heard of people in similar situations to the one I was in having moved in with a disordered person and becoming homeless very quickly.

However, even with all of the above circumstances it still does not excuse the fact that she physically assaulted me on four occasions and spat at me during an altercation when I was driving and almost crashed at 100 mph. It still doesn’t explain her total lack of empathy on numerous occasions, not least when I just got news of my brother in law’s death and she was pressuring me to hire a boat on the lake we were visiting on that day. I have to be careful what I say on here because I will be accused of painting her black and having either NPD or BPD myself. What I have concluded is that while I certainly have issues around emotional dependency and high octane relationships, I had never encountered a genuine lack of empathy in a girlfriend before. Her history of using ST against me and calling me an abuser and narcissist on a daily basis, along with her constant threats to expose me on social media for alleged abuse (which amounted to arguing with her) and then eventual discard, caused me to have a breakdown. No relationship has ever taken me to the depths of despair as this one.

My part in this is that I got involved with her while married and two years after an involvement with an old flame from the past. My wife and I married for companionship and she has issues around avoidant behaviour, both emotional and physical, but I wish I’d done things differently and been free to have a r/s unencumbered by guilt and the thought of hurting people. I will never make that mistake again. Nor will I ever again make the mistake of involving myself with a narcissist or a woman with extreme anger issues and a lack of empathy. It was frightening and devastating to discover the woman I’d fallen in love with and risked everything for was a deeply damaged and angry woman. I still love her. Don’t know if those feelings will ever subside, but I no longer have to be her snack.

Good luck to you with your future relationships. You certainly have a great insight and self awareness.

RF
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 05:08:51 AM by RomanticFool » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2019, 09:56:58 AM »

Excerpt
I didn’t react well to the AA woman and I can see that the damage she caused me on top of already feeling raw from the previous r/s has been the problem.
...
I guess if she hadn’t been as damaged as she is, we may well have had a wonderful relationship for a while
...
I am in an environment where I am abstaining from relationships
...
I have always been well behaved at work. Nor do I argue with my friends and family generally in an unhealthy and unstable way. I show empathy and love. My reactive behaviours have emerged mainly in two relationships with two damaged and unstable women.

"its not me, its the drink"

RF, this is, effectively what you have said, over and over.

in every romantic relationship that i ever had, girls told me that i had a need to be right that drove them crazy. that they felt they couldnt express themselves, or that id shut them down.

i dismissed it for one reason or another. "oh sure, thats easy to say when two people are arguing". "oh, thats just her low self esteem talking". "im not doing any such thing". "well, ive asked my closest friends if i do that and they all tell me no! it must be them, not me. im a good person who always tries to listen".

its not me, its the drink.

if you took the time and introspection, you would see that all of your romantic partners have had essentially the same complaints when it comes to how you handle relationships, how you see and treat them as partners. they all respond to it the same way...by shutting down, and/or distancing. and you respond to it the same way...ramping up. and when you dont get the desired response, you paint them black. you do it on this board on a smaller level.

until you see can see past this, it will repeat.

Excerpt
I allowed myself to get into an affair situation

"i allowed alcohol to get me drunk. its not me, its the drink."

Excerpt
I have a female friend who invited me to her house this coming weekend. She made it clear that she has feelings for me and wants me physically. We have been spending time going to galleries and to the cinema and I had no idea she felt this way about me. On Wednesday we had a coffee and I explained my entire relationship history to her. I told her that I wake up every morning thinking of my ex and that I am not in a position where I could have any kind of emotional or sexual r/s with her or anybody else right now. I told her that I need to heal and that I am grateful for her friendship. I don’t think I’ve ever been so honest with a woman in my life. I am committed to not making the same mistakes again.

youre making the same mistakes again.

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     and I think it's gonna be all right; yeah; the worst is over now; the mornin' sun is shinin' like a red rubber ball…
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« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2019, 11:17:58 AM »

From one year ago...

There is a woman in AA who has gravitated towards me and I have allowed a friendship to blossom with her. She is due to go into hospital on Thursday for an operation and I have been spending time going out to the cinema and enjoying time with her. She knows I'm married and no doubt feels safe in my company since I have behaved like a perfect gentleman...

So here I am once again at the same crossroads as before.

Does this not sound like almost an exact repeat of your rebound from marital affair partner #1 to marital affair partner #2?

The cinema? Platonic relationship? The confession of your deep personal struggles with your last relationship?

Think about it , RF. The day before you mention this girl, I said be careful not to solve your relationship hurt by jumping into another relationship (again).  

That said, how are things progressing overall? 

Have you filed for divorce yet? Has your wife moved out?

I noticed that you said she had a new partner.  Is that true or has she just had a few dates?
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« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2019, 04:03:27 PM »

Excerpt
its not me, its the drink"

RF, this is, effectively what you have said, over and over.

No it isn't. I said I don't have a personality disorder, I didn't say I don't have a part to play.  I'm not disputing that I've been over reactive but it has only happened to the extent that I've been this hurt in two relationships, both with damaged women. My marriage is reaching an amicable ending. The pain resides with the ex because of the abuse she visited upon me. Again, I repeat, I'm not saying I didn't have a part to play in that relationship but I was not violent and part of the pain I am experiencing is knowing that I have been emotionally tortured by somebody for many months. She called me an abuser worse than Epstein. I have never been abusive in the way that she claimed during her rages.

I'm not saying that I didn't argue with her or engage in whatsapp arguments. These arguments I regret and I think were a big part of the toxicity of the r/s. So I own my part in that.  Looking at myself is crucial, but also accepting that the behaviour of the other person has also caused me great pain and suffering and acknowledging that there is very little chance that r/s would ever have worked because of the way my ex behaves and I react. If you see that as blaming her then you're missing the point. I'm acknowledging that her disorder made a r/s impossible and my reactivity to that behaviour. Given that 99% of relationships with disordered people end in pain, I am trying to see that I have had a lucky escape.

Excerpt
Does this not sound like almost an exact repeat of your rebound from marital affair partner #1 to marital affair partner #2?

The cinema? Platonic relationship? The confession of your deep personal struggles with your last relationship?

Think about it , RF. The day before you mention this girl, I said be careful not to solve your relationship hurt by jumping into another relationship (again).  

No it's completely different. I said no this time and mean it.

Excerpt
That said, how are things progressing overall?

I'm up and down and dealing with my grief.

Excerpt
Have you filed for divorce yet? Has your wife moved out?

No and no. It's not important to either one of us. Financially it makes sense for her to stay as long as she likes, for both of us. Not because I'm hoping for a reconciliation, I'm not. I want her to stay until she is ready to leave. I don't mind how long that takes. I'm in no hurry to have to live with a complete stranger. My wife is a good housemate.

Excerpt
noticed that you said she had a new partner.  Is that true or has she just had a few dates?

She is engaged in a full scale r/s and spent last weekend with him. Good luck to her, I wish her all the best and we will remain firm friends for life I hope.



« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 04:12:26 PM by RomanticFool » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2019, 04:16:22 PM »

Excerpt
if you took the time and introspection, you would see that all of your romantic partners have had essentially the same complaints when it comes to how you handle relationships, how you see and treat them as partners. they all respond to it the same way...by shutting down, and/or distancing. and you respond to it the same way...ramping up. and when you dont get the desired response, you paint them black. you do it on this board on a smaller level.

This is not true. Two of my romantic partners have said this and they are the two damaged ones. The only people who distance themselves using ST are damaged women. My friend who I said I couldn't spend the weekend with is not in any of the fellowships nor does she have BPD or NPD. She is a lovely fully rounded healthy woman and she was understanding and we will remain good friends. I am not painting anybody black. I am explaining what happened in two toxic relationships. The first of which brought me on here in the first place. The second of which caused a breakdown. I guarantee you I will neither repeat the same patterns nor go with somebody who has a personality disorder ever again.

My behaviour with my most recent ex has the hallmarks of love addiction and emotional dependency. I am not losing sight that there are issues around love addiction here. But I am only triggered by somebody who is damaged.
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« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2019, 04:33:51 PM »

 Welcome new member (click to insert in post)
That's good. Wishing you a good healing.
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« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2019, 04:47:42 PM »

My behaviour with my most recent ex has the hallmarks of love addiction and emotional dependency. I am not losing sight that there are issues around love addiction here. But I am only triggered by somebody who is damaged.

You could also say you are only triggered by the serious romantics interests of the last 8-10 years. You say you only reacted badly to your two affair partners, but you acted far worse to you wife - you just hide it all from her.

Personality disorders are most obvious in times of stress with the most intimate relationships. This is a general statement.

Be careful not to blame others for their bad behavior and then blame them also for your bad behavior. This is a specific statement to you.

That said, if you no longer feel that you have BPD and possibly NPD traits, OK. Healing is a journey. But clearly something is going on and rather than self diagnose and treat or use your first martial affair partner as a therapist, you might want to get a professional healing plan in place.

Excerpt
Have you filed for divorce yet? Has your wife moved out?
No and no. It's not important to either one of us.

This is what you said last year and you saw how badly your new partner reacted to it.

RF, there are conventional wisdoms. Why do you ignore them? Even after seeing that ignoring them has dire consequences. Most women (especially healthy women) won't date a married man, or a man less than a year out of a relationship.  Why?  Because married (and recently divorced) men are unreliable and many women have been hurt by it, talk about it, write books about, save their friends from it. Men do things (you did things) like say the relationship is over and then go on an international trip with their wife. Or say a divorce is well on its way, but tell the wife it's a trial separation.  You saw the poll we did here - healthy singles avoid married (and recently divorced) men.

Best case a divorce will take 6 months in UK. Add a year to that and you aren't a fully eligible bachelor until April 2021. Wait 6 more months to start the process, and make that October 2021.

Don't wait until you are in another relationship.

If you want to date a healthy women, you will need to clean house. Conventional wisdoms.
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« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2019, 04:48:58 PM »

My most recent ex was the love of my life so far. Despite her abuse and mistreatment of me, I was deeply and madly in love with her. That love sustained for over a year and continues now. I doubt I will meet anybody who makes me feel the way she did and I doubt I'll let any woman into my heart for a good long while. It doesn't matter who I meet over the next year, nobody is going to turn my head and have my heart the way she did. If she came back now I'd still seriously consider taking her back. There is no room in my heart for anybody else and I must work on myself to get to the bottom of why I feel as I do towards this particularly dangerous femme fatale with no empathy whatsoever for the man who loves her.
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« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2019, 05:03:46 PM »

My most recent ex was the love of my life so far.

RF, read your history here. You said the exactly the same thing about marital affair partner #1. You hung on for 19 months after the relationship was over, pushing and pulling to recreate that fantasy right up until you met marital affair partner #2.

You met marital affair partner #2 and you were cured from #1.

Less than six weeks in, you knew marital affair partner #2 was a disaster, but you hung on for 12 months after the relationship was clearly toxic, pushing and pulling and hoping to recreate the bliss of the first few weeks.

You wrote all of that here.

There has been massively unhealthy attachments (wife, marital affair partners), massively toxic unhealthy behavior by all parties, and a death grip by you to hang on long after all 3 relationships were over. 10 years!

You are still married and living with a loyal women you had been cheating on for 8 years (of a 10 year marriage).

You are still hanging onto affair #1 (who at one point was suicidal over your relationship and hositalized) as a "therapist" of all things.

You are still hanging onto affair #2, even though you say she is the most toxic human being your have encountered in your life,almost drove you to suicide, and a year since the bliss of the first few weeks crashed down.

Conventional wisdom. Let all these people go from your life. Untangle all the baggage and let it go into the wind... the marriage, the martial home (that won't be too attractive), etc.

Go out in to the world and stand tall (and alone). Break free from your past.
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« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2019, 05:11:46 PM »

Excerpt
Be-careful not to blame others for their bad behavior and then blame them also for your bad behavior. This is a specific statement to you.

I'm not blaming my ex for my bad behaviour, I've owned it. I'm blaming her for being abusive and I think she has behaved with no care or empathy towards me and for that I am devastated. She is not the person I hoped she was.That's not painting her black, that is speaking as I find. From what I could see she enjoyed hurting me and enjoyed visiting the silent treatment on me. I believe she is a narcissist. I guarantee that her next r/s will be worse than this one with me because the next guy may not put up with what I did. I worry for her. I still care deeply for her.

Excerpt
You could also say you are only triggered by the serious romantics interests of the last 8-10 years. You say you only reacted badly to your two affair partners, but you acted far worse to you wife - you just hide it all from her.

My wife knows who I am. She tells me I am a kind and gentle man who has empathy. I don't say this to make myself look good. My wife is a very blunt and strong person. I am extremely lucky that she has found it in her heart not to visit anger upon me because I deserve it. Having another r/s has probably helped her. We have discussed what happened between my ex and myself and my wife said to me very clearly that she thinks I am empathetic. Yes, I hid the extra marital affairs from her but I can't hide my personality from her. I have been with her for 13 years and lived with her for 10 years. Don't you think if I had a personality disorder she'd have seen it by now? By her own words she hasn't seen anything that makes her concerned about my behaviour. She thinks I'm a coward for not telling her but that doesn't equal a PD.

Excerpt
Personality disorders are most obvious in times of stress with the most intimate relationships. This is a general statement.

This is why I have questioned my behaviour myself. Under stress I have behaved with a great deal of emotion. There has been great frustration in me regarding not being able to spend time with both of my ex's. If a therapist tells me that based on my behaviour in two highly complex and testing relationships that I have a personality disorder then I will listen. My last r/s brought out the absolute worst in terms of stress and reactivity but I was still kind to her. She totally demonised me and called me an abuser when she had been violent and I had told her that violence was unacceptable. She blamed me for her behaviour, not the other way around.

Excerpt
That said, if you no longer feel that you have BPD and possibly NPD traits, OK. Healing is a journey. But clearly something is going on and rather than self diagnose and treat or use your first martial affair partner as a therapist, you might want to get a professional healing plan in place.

I have been referred to a T by my doctor. I'm waiting to hear. Yes, something is going on. Whether it is a personality disorder remains to be seen. There is certainly some kind of primal wound that has been opened up in my last r/s. There is also a feeling of absolute betrayal at my ex abandoning me when we made a pact together. I think anybody would be hurt if they had pinned their hopes on somebody they loved. The area where I think I've struggled the most is convincing her of my love when she was devaluing me. It seemed an impossible task and I wish I'd spent more time finding ways to show my love to her rather than arguing with her. But damaged people can test the patience of a saint...and I am no saint. This woman has been brutal towards me.

Excerpt
RF, there are conventional wisdoms. Why do you ignore them? Even after seeing that ignoring them has dire consequences. Most women (especially healthy women) won't date a married man, or a man less than a year out of a relationship.  Why?  Because married (and recently divorced) men are unreliable and many women have been hurt by it, talk about it, write books about, save their friends from it. Men do things (you did things) like say the relationship is over and then go on an international trip with their wife. Or say a divorce is well on its way, but tell the wife it's a trial separation.  You saw the poll we did here - healthy singles avoid married (and recently divorced) men.

Best case a divorce will take 6 months in UK. Add a year to that and you aren't a fully eligible bachelor until April 2021. Wait 6 more months to start the process, and make that October 2021.

Don't wait until you are in another relationship.

If you want to date a healthy women, you will need to clean house. Conventional wisdoms.

Nobody cares about being divorced or not being divorced over here. Perhaps there is a cultural difference. I have already had one woman who wants a r/s with me. A healthy and sane woman who knows that my wife and I broken up and there is no chance of a reconciliation. The history of my marriage tells that story. I wouldn't worry so much about the divorce issue. It's not a big deal in the circles I move in, I promise you that.





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« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2019, 05:24:32 PM »

Excerpt
RF, read your history here. You said the exactly the same thing about marital affair partner #1. You hung on for 19 months after the relationship was over, pushing and pulling to recreate that fantasy right up until you met marital affair partner #2.

You met marital affair partner #2 and you were cured from #1.

Less than six weeks in, you knew marital affair partner #2 was a disaster, but you hung on for 12 months after the relationship was clearly toxic, pushing and pulling and hoping to recreate the bliss of the first few weeks.

You wrote all of that here.

Yes, this is where I feel my issues lie. In terms of SLAA, this is addiction. However, my recent ex ticked so many boxes in terms of what I want in a woman that I was prepared to overlook abusive behaviour. That is clearly not healthy and I need to work on that. I still feel I love her. I know 'feelings are not facts' and that I need to use my wise mind and not work on my emotions. But I miss her so badly in so many ways. Not least her company. It was never all about sex for me - it was about her.

Excerpt
There has been massively unhealthy attachments (wife, marital affair partners), massively toxic unhealthy behavior by all parties, and a death grip by you to hang on long after all 3 relationships were over. 10 years!

You are still married and living with a loyal women you had been cheating on for 8 years (of a 10 year marriage).

You are still hanging onto affair #1 (who at one point was suicidal over your relationship and hositalized) as a "therapist" of all things.

You are still hanging onto affair #2, even though you say she is the most toxic human being your have encountered in your life, almost drove you to suicide, and a year since the bliss of the first few weeks crashed down.

Conventional wisdom. Let all these people go from your life. Untangle all the baggage and let it go into the wind... the marriage, the martial home (that won't be too attractive), etc.

Go out in to the world and stand tall (and alone). Break free from your past.

Why can I not be friends with my wife and ex number 1? You have no idea how much my ex has helped me. She talked me off the ledge. We both took each other to a dark place but I think there is something loving about the way she has helped me. I don't see why she is bad for me now that the r/s is over. She clearly cares about me and it's a lonely world without friends.

I can't afford to let the marital home go. I don't think you realise how poor I am. My wife too. If she has to live here in order to have quality of life that's fine by me. If I had a regular job and money in the bank that would be a different matter - but sometimes economics dictates circumstances.
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« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2019, 06:34:23 PM »

Nobody cares about being divorced or not being divorced over here. I wouldn't worry so much about the divorce issue. It's not a big deal in the circles I move in, I promise you that.

Cut this out. Put it on your mirror.  Being cool (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2019, 07:45:40 PM »

Hello RF, no worries Smiling (click to insert in post) and thank you for the compliment.

Yes it's hard to not Jade when you are dealing with emotions ... for bpd's and non's also.. I think just everyone in general has problems NOT Jadeing... it's difficult when our emotions get heightened. SO it's something we must practice over time to get better and better at controlling Smiling (click to insert in post) We can only control ourselves. Trust me, I've had my fair share of defensive reactions because I can't seem to undertstand how someone can love me so much one minute and then throw me under the bus the next... that's why I'm glad I signed up here even if my ex and I don't work out, at least I have some insight into their disorder and how I can better myself regardless for any future r/s.

No r/s has taken you into the depths of despair as your current wife? So I'm confused... are you guys breaking up or staying together ? (in a later post on this thread I read you cannot leave her due to financial issues).

IN the case of the other women.. I wouldn't worry and dwell on it too much (I know others have given you advice here similar and they've probably read more of your threads than I have) but the best advice I can give is that tou work on yourself and focus on you. When we jump r/s to r/s , we aren't giving ourselves time to heal properly... I think some of the others mentioned this. As tough as it is to not face being alone, it's mandatory. In my younger years when I was a teenager and very early 20's I would do this... until I realized I felt worse about myself just jumping from a r/s into a fresh one just to "fill the void." Not only was I hurting someone new (the new guy would fall for me and I'd realize I don't love him... because I still loved my ex), but I was not happy and felt worse about myself for sleeping with someone else while I still had old feelings... I felt used etc.
I know some people will argue men and women are different when it comes to sexual needs/desire etc. but I believe when it comes to emotional pain, this has to be dealt with first. For me , personally, I cannot be with anyone new until I'm fully over the current partner... whether that taks me weeks , months, years, doesn't matter... Again, that's me personally and everyone is different... but take that advice with a grain of salt. The one thing I read that struck out at me was that you had your first affair (forgive me if it's the wrong one) because you were bored... this , I think , is the key here... maybe exploring this feeling a bit more might lead to new discoveries. 
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« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2019, 02:58:02 PM »

RF, you have been given a lot of advice over the years and you never seem to take it.  Your life has suffered as a result.  I think it's great you are seeking therapy and going to SLAA, but hanging out solo with a 'friend's who has feelings for you is playing with fire.  Hang out with male friends in your recovery programs and get healthy.  Stop looking for distractions from your feelings.
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« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2019, 04:57:21 PM »

Some of the advice I’m given on here is actually impossible. I couldn’t get divorced now even if I wanted to as I’m broke. Also I have more female friends than male. If it’s a choice between staying inside and feeling terrible or going out with a friend for an evening, I’ll choose the friend. I’ve suffered a great deal of emotional pain. There needs to be balance.
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« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2019, 08:05:01 PM »

RF, this is purely emotional reasoning. Emotional reasoning has not been your friend, for years.

Nothing changes without changes.
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« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2019, 08:19:24 PM »

Some of the advice I’m given on here is actually impossible. I couldn’t get divorced now even if I wanted to as I’m broke. Also I have more female friends than male. If it’s a choice between staying inside and feeling terrible or going out with a friend for an evening, I’ll choose the friend. I’ve suffered a great deal of emotional pain. There needs to be balance.

Awe RF... I'm sorry to hear you feel this way... anything is possible Smiling (click to insert in post) as cheesy as it sounds... it's totally okay to go out with friends, in fact, it's recommended. But just don't fall into the trap of sleeping with new people if you're not emotionally ready yet.
One thing that really has helped me was that I had to look at myself asking why I attracted NPD's in my past or BPD's (my current ex)?
For me, personally, it's because I'm codependent in many ways.. not to the point where I'm absolutely helpless on my own because I'm quite independent , and in fact, don't mind being alone. BUT I do get lonely at times... and because I'm also an empath it's a bad combo of wanting to help people etc. It's almost like I can feel the BP or NP's internal struggles... either that or they play out what I WANT to hear at that moment , get to know my weaknesses (empathy), and use it against me later when it's convenient for them. They know I can't leave without a fight, they know I want to communicate speak my mind etc... that's why they know blocking me/ST WORKS as a punishment.
Whether or not they truly are doing it on purpose, doesn't matter. they know it's my weak point, as it is for many of us on this forum who don't react well to Silent treatments I'm assuming.

But for you, the question and connection it seems is the "boredom" mixed with the loneliness. If you're a thrill seeker (avoiding boredom) then you'll always fall into the arms of an NPD/BPD because they'll sniff you out... they'll be exciting and fun, as they are at the beginning to an INTENSE degree (which is what most of get sucked into emotionally), and they'll latch onto you making you feel special etc...
so the questions to ask yourself to feel better and heal yourself are...
1. why are you bored? what makes you bored? is it the comparison to a BP/NP? Or just lack of intimacy/romance in your r/s with your wife anymore?
If you DO in fact want to date BP/NP's for the lack of boredom then you can't think negative thoughts about them anymore and you'll have to learn to cope with the bad that comes along with the exciting good bits.
2. what can you do to avoid falling into the arms of a BP/NP again (If you DON't in fact want to be with a BP/NP again)? You said they're unstable people and "toxic" for you... so for you to avoid this, you'll have to put up some walls and boundaries for yourself which might feel uncomfortable at first if you're an emotional and romantic person like me by nature who wears their heart on their sleeve.

The main questions for my future that I learned from my current ubpdexbf are:
why does this person want to move so fast with me? How can I be their soul mate if they don't even know me that well yet or can perceive such awful things of me? These should all be red flags for me by now, why am I STILL dismissing them? Why do I need the intense love they give me to feel better about myself? Why can't I feel whole on my own?  If I know they're mentally disordered, why do I still wonder WHY they do what they do? Logic can't explain some things like BP's actions (this is NOW finally clear to me). These are the personal demons I battle. What are some of yours RF? Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2019, 06:11:29 AM »

Secretgirl,

I relate to everything you say. Thank you for sharing.

Excerpt
Awe RF... I'm sorry to hear you feel this way... anything is possible Smiling (click to insert in post) as cheesy as it sounds... it's totally okay to go out with friends, in fact, it's recommended. But just don't fall into the trap of sleeping with new people if you're not emotionally ready yet.

I have no intention of sleeping with anybody right now. I have turned down two opportunities to do just that with two different friends. To be honest, I am shocked that two of my friends feel this way about me. I told them both that I am grieving and in no fit state to have a r/s with anybody, I need friends right now.

Excerpt
One thing that really has helped me was that I had to look at myself asking why I attracted NPD's in my past or BPD's (my current ex)?
For me, personally, it's because I'm codependent in many ways.. not to the point where I'm absolutely helpless on my own because I'm quite independent , and in fact, don't mind being alone. BUT I do get lonely at times... and because I'm also an empath it's a bad combo of wanting to help people etc. It's almost like I can feel the BP or NP's internal struggles... either that or they play out what I WANT to hear at that moment , get to know my weaknesses (empathy), and use it against me later when it's convenient for them. They know I can't leave without a fight, they know I want to communicate speak my mind etc... that's why they know blocking me/ST WORKS as a punishment.
Whether or not they truly are doing it on purpose, doesn't matter. they know it's my weak point, as it is for many of us on this forum who don't react well to Silent treatments I'm assuming.

I love your summing up here. I am also empathic generally with somebody who is unboundaried with me at the beginning. I give them all my love and empathy but then when they start criticising me or being difficult it triggers me and my combative love avoidant comes out. Instead of validating them and trying to be empathetic, under fire I become defensive and fearful that they will leave me. However, I don't leave. I do combat but then try to get them back onside. This was the pattern with my ex and then when she visited ST upon me for standing up to her I was in agony. The first time lasted three weeks and I was suicidal. The second time (right after we went on holiday for a week) I was angry and had enough and didn't chase. This was her proof that I didn't care. I adored this woman but I knew she was bad for me and so I let her go without much of a fight the second time. She wanted me to bombard her with messages and love declarations as I had the first time. I was too emotionally beaten up to do it. She walked away. She knew ST killed me, but the one time I did it to her for just 24 hours she squealed like I'd murdered her family. This hypocrisy is what I eventually could no longer deal with.

Excerpt
But for you, the question and connection it seems is the "boredom" mixed with the loneliness. If you're a thrill seeker (avoiding boredom) then you'll always fall into the arms of an NPD/BPD because they'll sniff you out... they'll be exciting and fun, as they are at the beginning to an INTENSE degree (which is what most of get sucked into emotionally), and they'll latch onto you making you feel special etc...
so the questions to ask yourself to feel better and heal yourself are...
1. why are you bored? what makes you bored? is it the comparison to a BP/NP? Or just lack of intimacy/romance in your r/s with your wife anymore?
If you DO in fact want to date BP/NP's for the lack of boredom then you can't think negative thoughts about them anymore and you'll have to learn to cope with the bad that comes along with the exciting good bits.
2. what can you do to avoid falling into the arms of a BP/NP again (If you DON't in fact want to be with a BP/NP again)? You said they're unstable people and "toxic" for you... so for you to avoid this, you'll have to put up some walls and boundaries for yourself which might feel uncomfortable at first if you're an emotional and romantic person like me by nature who wears their heart on their sleeve.

I'm not generally bored in life but my ex was such an all consuming person for me that without her I feel lost. Many of my male friendships are transient and dependent on planning and the guys being free, which married and attached men rarely are. My friends anyway. I went out with a friend on Friday and he said the most assinine things regarding my situation that I felt misunderstood. In general I find women more empathetic than men. Which is why when my gfs behave as my ex has done I feel so betrayed because for some reason I don't expect it from women. I think this is all about childhood wounds and my r/s with my mother and siblings. Whatever it is, it takes me to very dark places when I feel betrayed. My narrative has a moral obligation for my ex which i didn't live up to with my wife, so there is a dichotomy there. I loved my ex - the way she was the excitement - but I don't ever again want to get involved with someone who will devalue me because it is in her pathology. I can't allow myself to get involved with anyone damaged again.

Excerpt
The main questions for my future that I learned from my current ubpdexbf are:
why does this person want to move so fast with me? How can I be their soul mate if they don't even know me that well yet or can perceive such awful things of me? These should all be red flags for me by now, why am I STILL dismissing them? Why do I need the intense love they give me to feel better about myself? Why can't I feel whole on my own?  If I know they're mentally disordered, why do I still wonder WHY they do what they do? Logic can't explain some things like BP's actions (this is NOW finally clear to me). These are the personal demons I battle. What are some of yours RF? Smiling (click to insert in post)

I ignored the red flags with my ex because I wanted her. She was my dream woman who turned into a nightmare. Emotional dependency is at the root of my issues. I feel like I wanted to merge with my ex and become one with her. She wanted that too. We met on an emotional level and the hypersexuality was an expression of this. I still want her desperately.
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« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2019, 12:24:06 PM »

Hi RF. how are you doing today?

I have no intention of sleeping with anybody right now. I have turned down two opportunities to do just that with two different friends. To be honest, I am shocked that two of my friends feel this way about me. I told them both that I am grieving and in no fit state to have a r/s with anybody, I need friends right now.

I'm glad you said this ... it's literally me right now, also. As much as you maybe want to dive into a sexual r/s (which would be fine if BOTH parties agreed it being just that), it's good to sometimes take a breather and remind ourselves why we are single.


I love your summing up here. I am also empathic generally with somebody who is unboundaried with me at the beginning. I give them all my love and empathy but then when they start criticising me or being difficult it triggers me and my combative love avoidant comes out. Instead of validating them and trying to be empathetic, under fire I become defensive and fearful that they will leave me. However, I don't leave. I do combat but then try to get them back onside. This was the pattern with my ex and then when she visited ST upon me for standing up to her I was in agony. The first time lasted three weeks and I was suicidal. The second time (right after we went on holiday for a week) I was angry and had enough and didn't chase. This was her proof that I didn't care. I adored this woman but I knew she was bad for me and so I let her go without much of a fight the second time. She wanted me to bombard her with messages and love declarations as I had the first time. I was too emotionally beaten up to do it. She walked away. She knew ST killed me, but the one time I did it to her for just 24 hours she squealed like I'd murdered her family. This hypocrisy is what I eventually could no longer deal with.

I'm really glad that resonated with you... because it's true. Why do we attract them is a good question always. I've attracted a lot of NPD's in my day Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)
That's definitely understandable... being criticized after being lovebombed is just an awful thing to go through for empaths... because it's like "ok... so you love me ... now you don't ... now you do... which is it? make up your mind!" haha
A lot of what you said sounds similar to me in a sense of being codependent to an extent... my T said I'm not a BPD at all but codependents have some SIMILAR traits to bpd's... especially the defensiveness (because I'm assuming if you grew up in a family like mine where you've been conditioned to "shut up" and "take it" then now those types of comments are a trigger for you, as they are for me).
BUT this does NOT mean a codependent is a BPD. Just to make it clear.. I think maybe in this thread you mentioned that you think you may have bpd traits at some point... but in fact maybe you meant to say you have codependent traits which are similar to BPD? (just a guess here)... the abandonment thing can come with codependency also... because you become so enmeshed with someone, making them your world , you are so scared of them leaving and want to impress them... even when they are mean to you...
There was a cool thread I read once on Quora of someone explaining why codependents and bpd's don't workout eventually at times because they both need healing and a codependent wants consistency from their partner to feel "safe" and a bpd wants consistency also to feel "safe" so it's always this battle. Like the codep. wants the BPD to take care of them , so to speak, and the BPD can mirror that at the beginning but then their mask falls of, and they need more care taking than the codep. and the codep. begins to resent them for this and then when the splitting occurs, the codep. starts feeling "unappreciated" and thinking things like "look what I've DONE FOR YOU! you're ungrateful, how could you think I don't love you?" etc. etc.
So that defensiveness is what I need to work on also... it's a trigger for me from childhood trauma and now wanting to feel heard... and , as most of us know on this forum, communication and hearing you isn't a bpd;'s strength... so that's what we need to work on healing for ourselves.
The hypocrisy is definitely what we can't handle... due to the lack of consistency etc. So your story makes absolutely 100% sense to me when looking at it from this POV.


I'm not generally bored in life but my ex was such an all consuming person for me that without her I feel lost. Many of my male friendships are transient and dependent on planning and the guys being free, which married and attached men rarely are. My friends anyway. I went out with a friend on Friday and he said the most assinine things regarding my situation that I felt misunderstood. In general I find women more empathetic than men. Which is why when my gfs behave as my ex has done I feel so betrayed because for some reason I don't expect it from women. I think this is all about childhood wounds and my r/s with my mother and siblings. Whatever it is, it takes me to very dark places when I feel betrayed. My narrative has a moral obligation for my ex which i didn't live up to with my wife, so there is a dichotomy there. I loved my ex - the way she was the excitement - but I don't ever again want to get involved with someone who will devalue me because it is in her pathology. I can't allow myself to get involved with anyone damaged again.

Totally about childhood wounds... your mother probably made you enmesh and then didn't allow you to stand up for yourself/be more independent etc.
It is definitely in her pathology /their pathology... and you know what? It's OKAY to throw in the towel. I'm coming to the realization of this myself at this moment in my life... I'm trying very hard to be emotionally strong enough for my ex if he comes back... but because I'm still not fully NOT codependent, I think it would be a very rocky r/s moving forward. I'm also contemplating now throwing in the towel and it's because I don't know , in this stage in my life, if I'm ready to take on an undiagnosed BPD. I don't have the strength myself. I don't think I could NOT react/defend myself. I still lack the confidence in myself to have my ex readily aim at me, open fire, and for me to wear a self-made bullet proof vest (metaphorically speaking). Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) best way to describe it... I know I have grown LOTS with therapy myself the last few years... but I still don't think I'm at the stage where I would be able to take on an undiagnosed BPD without feeling unoffended, hurt, let down, ashamed, etc. And that sucks. That's a goal I work towards every day now. So it's totally OKAY that you don't want to deal with this type of r/s anymore. You don't have to , ever. It's 50% your choice to be in it or not. Doesn't mean they're bad people... like you said, there's lots you loved about your exes... just they can't help it (like you also said) like we can't help wanting to defend ourselves, and yet wanting to be whatever THEY want so they don't leave.  So it's good to listen to yourself and take your own advice. Own it. Smiling (click to insert in post)
it's a codep's downfall to WANT to stand up for themselves and feel heard (this is where I think the defensiveness comes from) but then NOT sticking to their boundaries because they're so obsessed with their partner that they end up dealing with abuse instead of continuing to standup for themselves... thoughts?



I ignored the red flags with my ex because I wanted her. She was my dream woman who turned into a nightmare. Emotional dependency is at the root of my issues. I feel like I wanted to merge with my ex and become one with her. She wanted that too. We met on an emotional level and the hypersexuality was an expression of this. I still want her desperately.


Definitely can see that... lots of us do this (ignoring the red flags). You literally nailed the codep. bit I wrote above in these few sentences. So that's something to think about for your future. How can you be less emotionally dependent? What can you do to avoid merging through hypersexuality at the beginning? Maybe take things slower... and get to know them/their intentions more first?  Learning to be happy and healthy alone is a journey. Have faith in yourself. You are your biggest fan. #1.  Virtual hug (click to insert in post) Virtual hug (click to insert in post) Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2019, 11:39:37 AM »

Hey Secretgirl,

Thanks so much for your post again. It is really a tonic to read your messages as you display the compassion and empathy that warms my heart. Thank you.

It’s been very difficult as I’m still grieving my ex and my wife told me she is moving out in January, so change is afoot. She said she wants her own space to develop her new r/s. We had a good heart to heart and I’m happy for her.

I am taking your advice and spending time working on myself and trying to get to the bottom of the trauma that has affected me throughout my life. There is some deep childhood wound that I must heal before I can move on. These are difficult times and it feels to me like genuine change and growth is now possible.

Thank you Secretgirl. It is a tonic reading your posts.

RF
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« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2019, 07:27:34 PM »

Hey Secretgirl,

Thanks so much for your post again. It is really a tonic to read your messages as you display the compassion and empathy that warms my heart. Thank you.

It’s been very difficult as I’m still grieving my ex and my wife told me she is moving out in January, so change is afoot. She said she wants her own space to develop her new r/s. We had a good heart to heart and I’m happy for her.

I am taking your advice and spending time working on myself and trying to get to the bottom of the trauma that has affected me throughout my life. There is some deep childhood wound that I must heal before I can move on. These are difficult times and it feels to me like genuine change and growth is now possible.

Thank you Secretgirl. It is a tonic reading your posts.

RF

Hello RF I'm glad they help Smiling (click to insert in post)

That's great about your wife... is she moving in with her guy? You guys aren't divorcing though right? Just open r/s?
I'm glad you think the growth is now possible... we all have to have faith in ourselves Smiling (click to insert in post) Until we heal ourselves and be happy, we can't make someone else happy. and that's the truth. Amennnn.

You're welcome RF hang in there!
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« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2019, 01:55:38 AM »

Hey RF,

Out of interest, what do you do in your spare time? Being a recovering alcoholic in the UK is a bit debilitating as I'd imagine that excludes you from the pub... which is the cornerstone of most neighbourhoods. That said, the pub is the perfect place to meet disordered people (as is AA). As part of the process of looking at yourself and what's going on, maybe you could also look at where you enjoy spending your spare time and how that may well heavily impact the type of people you're likely to interact with. I'm not suggesting you join a knitting club (no offence avid knitters) but there are certain things you can do to avoid putting yourself in positions where you're guaranteed to interact with disordered people and disordered thinking.

As others have pointed out about the situation with your W, I believe the majority of healthy people do care, the majority of healthy people in the UK don't want to be involved in that kind of relationship. My personal observation in the microcosm of my little village is there are 2 very polarised views, those that do care and would want to avoid this kind of mess, who have relatively happy marriages, who focus on their kids, on normal things like work their homes and garden, see close friends and family, go on date nights and enjoy watching Strictly come dancing. Then there's the other pole, those who seek out any excuse to 'party', spend much of their time at the pub, spend much of their time telling their friends how miserable their relationships are, validating to each other how the grass is greener on the other side and how 'everyone' plays away and how they all deserve happiness and how the boring people at home watching Strictly come dancing "don't get it"... but who's the happy ones? Contented peeps watching Strictly, or those 'partying'? Misery loves company, think about the company you keep and what that will likely lead to.

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« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2019, 05:47:41 AM »

Hi Enabler,

Thanks for your input. First thing to say is I spend most of my time at the theatre, cinema, walks in the park, meals out and art galleries. I never go to pubs. I’m nearly 17 years sober and wouldn’t go into one unless it was exceptional circumstances. I never have any problem filling my time. I work in the arts and my hobby is playing piano. I have a range of eclectic tastes and interests.

My most recent ex was a journalist and used to get free tickets to lots of events like movies, jazz gigs, galleries and theatre. To me our r/s was perfect as we had the same interests, aspirations, emotional life and desire for a loving and healthy r/s...or so I thought. It is a great sadness to me that she is most likely with someone else and sharing all these wonderful things with another. My heart breaks thinking about it...and then I remember how toxic things were between us.

I’m not trying to dismiss the marriage issue, but these things take time. My wife is moving out in January and she said she has no plans for a divorce unless I wanted to press ahead. I most likely will eventually but neither one of us will ever get married again and neither one of us particularly wants to fork out financially for a divorce when keeping a roof over our head is a priority. I have found that the women I meet totally understand my situation and living alone, as I will be doing in January, and being a single man is the most important aspect of all this. An estranged wife who is in a r/s with a new man is not going to be an obstacle to me meeting anybody. These things take time and there is no point in rushing. I am alone and on my own, legally married or not. Maybe if I was a Christian and lived in a Christian society it would make a difference, but we are largely secular in England.

I have never consciously sought out damaged people. Not all of my r/s have been with damaged people. My ex watched Love Island with her daughter. Though that is an anathema to me I don’t condemn people who stay in and watch X-Factor and Strictly, I was happy to stay in as much as possible with the ex. It’s all about the person you’re doing it with in my experience. Truth is I would have done anything with her. Each day I wake up without her is like a bad dream. I keep running the details of the r/s in my head over and over, looking at my part in the carnage. I wish I’d shown more restraint on WhatsApp, though I did show a great deal of restraint face to face, usually to stop her shouting at me. We met at AA and you are right it is a great place to meet damaged people. My ex was too early in recovery to have a healthy r/s and triggered issues in me I didn’t know I had.
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