Is there any point in responding?

[ProudDad12]

I think I've mostly made up my mind on this, but wanted to throw it out here for input.

Have no idea how to summarize context here, because I've had lots of discussion on the boards lately on my issues with my uBPD mom and FOO, way too much to do justice to the craziness. Best way I know to summarize is we're 3 months into NC with my parents and siblings, over things unapologetically and persistently said to and about about my wife. As an example, the latest piece this week was we found out my parents have been telling my aunt and uncle that my wife wants out of our marriage. An untrue statement that has us angry and scratching our heads.

Basically, they've made my wife out to be a disrespectful devilish liberal alien yankee who is controlling me into destroying the family. I use those words because they came from them about her.

So anyway, I received an email from my mom tonight. Having ignored her texts before blocking her on my phone after seeing things were just getting worse, I had no idea what to expect. Thought maybe she was sending an olive branch.

I was wrong. It was a very long email, telling me about what we're doing to their reputations (never mind we've found out they've been talking about us in our circle of friends). Talking about how I am destroying them and our family. Telling me how my life is poisoned. Telling me I'm supposed to be the peacemaker. Saying they have done nothing wrong but can list lots of things done to them. Saying she wonders why I'm not even curious to know my dad's health condition (guess she doesn't know I've been getting information from his siblings, who have been nothing but supportive to us). Said she wonders how we can be seeing a Christian counselor and still do these things.

Anyway, it was a long email about them, and what we're doing to them, and how she can't believe I'd be OK doing these things to them (all we've done is back away when she started going off on us, and eventually went NC when it didn't stop). Nothing in there had an ounce of apology or ownership, or even concern for us. It was a pleading email but from the angle of complete blame throwing and victimization.

Part of me wants to try to send a well thought out response. Part of me wants to let loose and finally let her know how I really feel about her behavior and actions. But most of me guesses there is no point.

[GaGrl]

Sigh...

This is definitely an extinction burst. Even in the absence of any communication with you, she is still wrapped up in it. I'm sure the lack of control over you and your family is agitating to her.

So she just continues to clarify her opinions and position for you.

No need to respond.

You might want to file the email so you can recall it when she denies she ever said those things.

[ProudDad12]

Sigh...

This is definitely an extinction burst. Even in the absence of any communication with you, she is still wrapped up in it. I'm sure the lack of control over you and your family is agitating to her.

So she just continues to clarify her opinions and position for you.

No need to respond.

You might want to file the email so you can recall it when she denies she ever said those things.

Thanks GaGrl, I was actually wondering about the extinction burst thing. I'm surprisingly more numb to her email than I expected, not to say feelings won't seep in later. I'm going to plan on not responding.

Definitely plan to save the email though. One reason I prefer written communication with her... her own words to my cousin: "Just do what I do, say it and deny it later!" Things you find out when you go NC with your FOO, leading to your extending family feeling comfortable sharing their own experiences with you.

[Methuen]

Sigh squared...

I recently ignored an email from my mom.  This decision was applauded by my counsellor.

I am beginning to learn that silence from me has the greatest impact and sends the strongest message.  A reply to our uBPD loved ones just sucks us into the drama which meets the BP's needs, and reinforces the bad behavior.  It will never end well to respond.  BP's always have the last word, and the emotion causes us utter despair.   That seems to meet their need.  It certainly doesn't meet ours.

I would also suggest ignoring it.  

[Notwendy]

This e mail is certainly revealing of their perspective.

It comes down to boundaries. Your boundary is NC. If this is your boundary- then hold on to it. You may receive other e mails, some critical, some trying to get you to respond in other ways. Your part in this is to hold on to the boundary you have chosen.

My mother pushes boundaries. From her perspective, if I have a boundary, I am doing something very terrible to her. She doesn't see her part in the relationship.

It's socially embarrassing to not have a good relationship with one's children and grandchildren. In my mother's social circle, some of her friends are living near their children, and/or they talk about doing things with the grandchildren. It implies that something is wrong. She can't have them wondering if she's a bad mother---- so it has to be my fault, or in your case, your fault, or your wife's fault.

My mother has said some awful and untrue things about me to her friends and family. If I think about it, it's probably to save face and not look bad, or not look at her part in it ( which I don't think she can). Although I am not NC, I am LC and not close to her. I visit when I can, but not often. We do speak on the phone, but I don't share personal information with her. If I do share something, she repeats it to everyone she knows so it can't be too personal.

I think shame is a big issue for my mother. Nothing is her fault, and she doesn't apologize. It has to be that I'm a terrible daughter, not her. For your mother, it is emotionally safer and socially easier to blame this on you and your wife. It's how she processes this.

[Panda39]

Telling me I'm supposed to be the peacemaker.

That's it in a nutshell...she wants you back in your traditional role in the dysfunction.

I'm with everyone else, no need to respond to her stuff, because it is her stuff...her discomfort, her boundary busting, her emotions, how she looks to others etc.

I know how tempting it is to fire back (JADE) and in the short run it might feel better, but all it does is give her ammunition to twist into more drama. Don't feed the drama monster!

Hang in there,
Panda39

[ProudDad12]

Thanks everyone! Haven't responded and still don't have plans to respond. However, I may be experiencing a little hiccup. I forwarded the email to my therapist, who called and gave me his first impressions. He said he wanted to sleep on it and call me back, but for the moment the pieces that particularly caught his attention:

1) He noticed how she talks about how my dad's relationships with his siblings is ruined, with no awareness or inclination to the real cause (Spoiler alert, it's her. They told me themselves).

2) She said "help me help you" towards the end. In other words, this situation is my responsibility. I completely missed that last night.

3) He noticed how she is convinced I had to have endured some sort of abuse from someone to be willing to "do" the things I'm doing. I think he noticed that part because it was part of the discussion in our last appt yesterday. That my mom has to imagine some sort of childhood abuse I've endured to rationalize my current stance.

4) She ended the email with a plea to keep the email between the two of us. He seemed particularly interested in this part, since it goes along with her MO of telling different people different things, keeping secrets, etc., presumably as a means of manipulation and control.

I really appreciated his insight, as he caught things I didn't. Only part I'm struggling with is that he made a few recommendations for a response. Not sure what to do with that. Nothing wrong with any of his suggestions, I just don't think it matters. I'm trying not to think too much about it until tomorrow when I talk to him again after we've both had time to sleep on it. I think he may be trying to help with the potential end game of reconciliation. But as much as NC is breaking my heart and tugging at my emotions, I'm not sure reconciliation is the answer. I know my wife's stance is that she's done with them for good, especially the more we're hearing of my mom's antics behind our backs. So between that and her lack of remorse, for now my mom has made the answer easy for me. I've been trying not to think about long term and focus on now, because thinking long term hurts and causes anxiety attacks! I certainly want my parents to know I love them, as I said to them in a letter last week, but with zero accountability or remorse on their end, I'm increasingly coming to the conclusion that this conflict isn't my problem to fix. Hope I'm not off base.

[Imatter33]

ProudDad,
I thought it better to reply publicly since the support can go farther this way. But my therapist has also at times suggested "tips for responding to my mom/setting boundaries ... (for example if i saw her at a holiday thing.) They were well intended and made sense. But I looked at her in the eyes and said, " I think knowing my mom, even a civil shallow relationship is kind of impossible."

Therapist's are allies to us, and so they will suggest many things. Only you will know if you feel strong and right about taking that step.

My mother does not do fake. She would read into my soul () ...my toolbox of strategy and I know I would somehow get off on the wrong foot.
I attribute this to still needing to KNOW my values, and expectations.

Have you been reading "Stop Walking on Eggshells?" Highly recommend. 

[GaGrl]

I don't think your mother has lived with NC long enough for it to have really sunk in that, while you communicate that you love them, their unacceptable behavior prevents you from exposing you and your family to continued harm.I

She really needs time to just sit with it. I believe a part of a person with BPD does know that certain behaviors are/were out of bounds -- it's very difficult, almost impossible for them to own the behavior and acknowledge it (much less apologize for it). However, giving your mother the space to at least acknowledge what she can may require that your NC be long enough and consistent enough.

What would a reply now tell her? That if she continues to send blaming emails, you will reply and tell her you love her. Anything else only gives her ammunition to turn back onto you in the next email.

Let her work through the extinction burst and move into what level of introspection she might be capable of.

[ProudDad12]

ProudDad,
I thought it better to reply publicly since the support can go farther this way. But my therapist has also at times suggested "tips for responding to my mom/setting boundaries ... (for example if i saw her at a holiday thing.) They were well intended and made sense. But I looked at her in the eyes and said, " I think knowing my mom, even a civil shallow relationship is kind of impossible."

Therapist's are allies to us, and so they will suggest many things. Only you will know if you feel strong and right about taking that step.

My mother does not do fake. She would read into my soul () ...my toolbox of strategy and I know I would somehow get off on the wrong foot.
I attribute this to still needing to KNOW my values, and expectations.

Have you been reading "Stop Walking on Eggshells?" Highly recommend. 

I've spent a lot of time trying to make a shallow relationship work as well. Yep, I read Eggshells a couple years back, it's a great book. I need to read it again. Thanks!

I don't think your mother has lived with NC long enough for it to have really sunk in that, while you communicate that you love them, their unacceptable behavior prevents you from exposing you and your family to continued harm.I

She really needs time to just sit with it. I believe a part of a person with BPD does know that certain behaviors are/were out of bounds -- it's very difficult, almost impossible for them to own the behavior and acknowledge it (much less apologize for it). However, giving your mother the space to at least acknowledge what she can may require that your NC be long enough and consistent enough.

What would a reply now tell her? That if she continues to send blaming emails, you will reply and tell her you love her. Anything else only gives her ammunition to turn back onto you in the next email.

Let her work through the extinction burst and move into what level of introspection she might be capable of.

Yeah I keep hoping the NC will eventually be a wake up call. And you're right, I just can't see any kind of response going well. I do admit, I find myself a little surprised they're maintaining their antagonistic victim stance this far in. Though I guess the mitigating circumstances with my dad's health has lent fuel to their fire. Wish they could see their action and words just make the NC seem more and more the right move.

Slightly off topic but I can't not mention it... and I'll bring it to topic by saying it's pretty much sealing the deal for me not responding...

So in response to us discovering my parents have been telling family members that she wants out of our marriage, my wife made a FaceBook post that complimented me and called me thoughtful for a small gift I had recently given her. Her own subtle way of pushing back at the lies. Well, my cousin "liked" it. We just found out that last night (apparently before my mom's email) that my dad texted my aunt and told her to tell my cousin to unlike it and to not like any more of my wife's posts. My aunt responded with "She is 33 I don't tell her what to do". He responded with "Got it. I didn't think asking was telling." My aunt said "I'm not asking her either".

I mean... petty and insane. I don't even know what to say! Glad to have my aunt and cousin on our side though.

[Notwendy]

It's a bit absurd that your father calls your aunt to tell your cousin to not "like" a Facebook post. How convoluted is this? ( triangle). He could call his niece himself. But that would be direct- then he'd take the heat for the call. So go indirect- call his sister and ask her to do it.

And of all things- a Facebook post!  and your cousin is 33.

Whenever I saw my father do or say something odd like this, I suspected my mother put him up to it. I also suspected that even though he may not have agreed to the request, he did it anyway because she would badger him to do it. Eventually, he would do it. Over time, he just would give in right away.

I am thankful my mother isn't on FB. There is so much drama on there. I am mainly on it to communicate with people who don't live near me - share pictures and things like that. However I know that my mother's family tells her anything that is posted. I don't post personal information on there. I might share things like a kid's graduation, or Halloween costume, but no drama. Nothing on Facebook is private anyway.

I think it is fair to assume that anything you or your wife posts will be considered public and your parents will know about it.

[GaGrl]

It really is petty. But think for a moment how very small and insular your parent's have become, that your mother could convince your father that such a conversation with his sister was necessary and appropriate. They have no perspective.

[ProudDad12]

It's a bit absurd that your father calls your aunt to tell your cousin to not "like" a Facebook post. How convoluted is this? ( triangle). He could call his niece himself. But that would be direct- then he'd take the heat for the call. So go indirect- call his sister and ask her to do it.

Yeah it is pretty nuts. I've told friends I feel like I'm in the twilight zone the more petty or ridiculous stunts I hear about. It's like this NC is causing more and more to come out. Extinction bursts I guess, as GaGrl mentioned.

Whenever I saw my father do or say something odd like this, I suspected my mother put him up to it.

My aunt and cousin always suspect any non-verbal communication from my dad is really coming from my mom. I think it's her putting him up to it, same as you suspected. If nothing else I told my aunt the wording of the text sounded like him.

I am thankful my mother isn't on FB. There is so much drama on there. I am mainly on it to communicate with people who don't live near me - share pictures and things like that. However I know that my mother's family tells her anything that is posted. I don't post personal information on there. I might share things like a kid's graduation, or Halloween costume, but no drama. Nothing on Facebook is private anyway.

I think it is fair to assume that anything you or your wife posts will be considered public and your parents will know about it.

I agree, too much drama. I have an account but never log in. I'm pretty sure next time I do it's going to be to close my account. After my wife de-friended my mom and my brother and BIL de-friended us, the only logical ones left to see the post and report to my mom are my sister and SIL. I'm guessing it was the former, which is unfortunate because she's been playing nice, but at the same time she's been my mom's GC and is in lockstep with her (to the point of confiding in my mom more than my BIL). Anyway my wife knew her post was subject for anyone to see, but there was nothing to it. Just saying some nice things about me after I got her a present.

It really is petty. But think for a moment how very small and insular your parent's have become, that your mother could convince your father that such a conversation with his sister was necessary and appropriate. They have no perspective.

They really don't have perspective. And after everything I've seen, I can't believe they still manage to surprise me with the stuff they pull.

I used to believe my mom and the things she said/suggested about other people, but eventually saw better. I'm seeing my dad now as the product of continuing down the path of believing my mom with full blinders on. I don't know what disturbs me more, the escalating lashing out they are doing, or imagining what is going on in their heads.

But anyway, I don't think I can put it better than you did... small and insular. My aunt sent me a screenshot this morning of a followup from my dad... telling her "There were more civil options for saying no. I thought we were on better terms". My aunt responded that she wasn't uncivil (which I agree with), she was just responding quickly. I get the impression my aunt's strained patience is about to run out with them. She's already been holding back from giving them a piece of her mind. Not that I want more conflict, my wife and I are drained at this point.

By the way, my therapist called me back and had the same thoughts as yesterday. I updated him and told him I said my piece in the letter, and didn't feel the need to respond. He was agreeable to that.

[ProudDad12]

Well I never responded but she emailed me again. This time asking me to call her to figure out what to do about my daughters birthday present (it’s next week). I’m not about to call her but have no idea whether or how to respond to that email, especially when considered in full context.

Any advice? They really keep me on my toes.

[Notwendy]

Are you my brother?    cause this sounds like something my mother would do.

I am not sure how you established the boundary of NC. If you made this clear- do not contact me, she is testing the boundary. My mother doesn't just accept the boundary- she tries ways to get around it. She also tries in manipulative ways that make it hard to say no. " I'm just asking about a Christmas present for my grandaughter"...Makes you feel like a real heel for ignoring it.

[GaGrl]

This simply becomes a matter of holding your boundary of ND for your family. Be your family's protector.I

She is using your daughter as a follow-up to her previous email. " If A didn't get a response, let me try B. "

It's apparent the ND has not lasted long enough for her to accept it, much less figure out what needs to be different in order to have hope for contact in future.

No response needed.

[ProudDad12]

Are you my brother?    cause this sounds like something my mother would do.

Haha, if nothing else our mom's could be friends!

I am not sure how you established the boundary of NC. If you made this clear- do not contact me, she is testing the boundary. My mother doesn't just accept the boundary- she tries ways to get around it. She also tries in manipulative ways that make it hard to say no. " I'm just asking about a Christmas present for my grandaughter"...Makes you feel like a real heel for ignoring it.

Unfortunately I never made a firm proclamation of the NC, beyond a "this will be my only text" sort of thing. I never really had an endgame in mind since the stuff went down a few months ago. It's just kinda morphed into the NC. It started when I stopped responding to her raging. I sent a single "this will be my only text" deal a few days when she stopped raging but still made everything to be my wife's fault. The more they've stood their ground and sent me messages as such, the more I've backed away (i.e., blocking them, etc.). I had half hoped for some remorse, some earnest olive branch, but they just escalated and suddenly it's 3 months later. And now I'm at a point where I feel awful these things are happening and yet I don't think I even want to have resolution anymore. Aside from when they cause problems that reach me and my general depression over the situation, my life has been much less stressful. And whether it's a coincidence or not, my 6 year old's behavior has even improved. Though at the same time I'm dreading the holidays and the cloud this is going to cast on them. Sorry, on a tangent.

But you're right, I feel terrible for ignoring it. But I guess that's the point. What's messed up is I don't know if she realizes that's the point. Whether my mom is aware or not, she's an expert at keeping me unsure of my actions.

This simply becomes a matter of holding your boundary of ND for your family. Be your family's protector.I

She is using your daughter as a follow-up to her previous email. " If A didn't get a response, let me try B. "

It's apparent the ND has not lasted long enough for her to accept it, much less figure out what needs to be different in order to have hope for contact in future.

No response needed.

Thanks, putting it that way kinda helps jar me out of the unsettled/depressed train of thought that I'm sure helps my mom's cause.

[Notwendy]

I think it would help if you can be clear to yourself about your boundary. Is NC your choice for the long run? if so, and that is your boundary, then stick to it.

For me personally, NC didn't feel right to me. I have gone more LC with my mother. It is also difficult. I didn't specifically state this boundary to her. I basically started to communicate only on a superficial level to her. It isn't so much about how often I see her, or how much time I spend with her, than how emotional our exchanges are. They aren't - because I am not engaging in drama or emotional topics with her. I also have done a lot of personal work on my own co-dependent tendencies and am less reactive to her emotionally. Not being reactive has actually helped us get along better. In some ways our relationship is better and in others, it's sad, because we really are not emotionally connected much. I think this is actually how connected we always were- without the drama. I don't know how capable of being emotionally attached to anyone she actually is. I have wondered if she has psychopathic tendencies. She's would not do anything criminal, but she seems to enjoy lying and manipulating people.

In the long run, our boundaries reflect us, not them. She's not going to change. Setting a boundary with the expectation that she will "get it" isn't the goal. It's what I can handle, emotionally as well as my own values.

I still wanted contact with my father. I tried NC with her once- a long time ago- when I was single- and still tried to maintain contact with my Dad. But they were a package deal and it was not realistic to think I could only have contact with him.  Once I had a family, if I wanted my kids to see my father, they were a package deal. Of course she wants a relationship with her grandchildren. I didn't leave her alone with them, but supervised visits were reasonable- and I had boundaries with this. NC or LC- she doesn't like boundaries. She's not happy either way. I had to decide what to do according to how I felt I could manage it.

Unless we enforce a boundary, it really isn't effective. If you decide on NC- then you need to enforce that. If you are not comfortable doing that, then a form of LC might work better for you. Any boundary isn't going to be easy when dealing with someone who isn't going to like them or accept them. You have to be the one to be as OK as you can be with it.

I don't have the same dynamics with your mother as you do with your wife and your mother. My mother likes my H. She likes men in general. She has more issues with the females. She disliked the female relatives on my father's side. My mother likes having men pay attention to her and is nicer to them in general. So issues with my mother were mainly with just us. I didn't have to be concerned about how she treated my H- and so he didn't have an opinion about what I should do- it was up to me.

You may not have an answer yet, but I think it might help to sit down with your wife and discuss a long range plan for how you will relate to your parents. If NC is it- then it is. However, this also means no Christmas seeing your parents, no presents for the kids from them, no birthdays--etc. Can you manage this? If not, then is it possible to come up with a plan for how you can have your family time- and also see them for a bit at certain times- drop by at Christmas, or a birthday - or whatever event you may consider.

Going NC with my mother would also mean NC with the entire family on her side. They are enmeshed. At one point after my father died, they stopped contact with me. Now some of them are making contact. If I go to a family event like a wedding- they are all there and so is my mother. Going NC with her would mean NC with people who are connected to her.

Lastly, it didn't feel right to me. She's elderly and a widow and while we have a difficult relationship, it still is one. It has helped me to not feel as emotionally reactive. I know your mother said terrible things about your wife. My mother has said terrible things about me. But that doesn't make them true. For me to be around her, I had to learn to not react to what she says as much. Of course, you need to consider your marriage and not allow your mother to cause difficulty there. On the other hand, your wife could also be reacting to your pattern in this and if you became less co-dependent and less reactive to the FOG- then this might help.

Neither NC or LC is easy- but it may help to gain some clarity about what would work for you best.

[formflier]

I've ended up LC with my in-laws.  I would guess there was about a year of absolutely no contact and then some "logistical" contact via text about kids and schedules for a year to year and a half.

My life is so much simpler and calmer because I'm blissfully unaware of family drama/control.

This has allowed me to focus that extra energy on me and my relationship with my wife (which is much calmer).

The last time a "family thing" came up from her side was a few months ago, I was able to "be there" for my wife without getting all tangled up in it.  My wife had found out her aunt (mom's sister) had passed away.  Her Mom and this sister hadn't spoken in years (probably 5 or a touch more) and I know my wife always held out hope for reconciliation.

Anyway the Aunt died and left explicit instructions for cremation and no ceremony of any kind whatsoever, so there would be nothing for anyone to show up to.  Uggg.


So, back to NC versus LC.  I don't remember all the details of the transition but I remember I could either go through a bunch of gymnastics  to maintain NC or childcare and logistics would be easier with LC.  So...I chose to make my life easier.

I say this to suggest that you'll know when it's OK to try LC.  If you are debating it or can't see a clear benefit, likely best to maintain NC.  

The social media thing:  It's interesting that it's a "roundabout" communication method.  A statement was made about the status of your marriage, without explicitly stating it.  You gained insight into family dynamics as well.

I would encourage you to evaluate (and potentially discuss with your T), the value of continuing to "send message" via social media compared to "not participating in drama".

I would hope that you can find a way to have a "healthy" social media presence and not limit or expand social media because of some in your family.    Any ideas on what that may look like?


Best,

FF

[ProudDad12]

I think it would help if you can be clear to yourself about your boundary. Is NC your choice for the long run? if so, and that is your boundary, then stick to it.

Yeah that part's been a struggle for me. In the beginning of this mess, I had a boundary that they were not to talk about/to or characterize my wife a certain way. Early on, had they responded like reasonable people and sincerely apologized, things might have been different (can't say for sure, my wife would have been a much harder sell for them). But they persisted, and I enforced my boundary via NC. The deeper we go down this rabbit hole, the more I both find out and see what they are capable of, the more I want NC. As much as it hurts me to say as we go into my daughter's birthday and the holidays, I just don't have a desire to talk to or see them after all they've done. Any internal push to respond or reach out is born from a sense of obligation. I certainly want them to know I love them, but I'm just so tired of the emotional turmoil they persistently bring into my life. And their absolute refusal to own up to any of their crap, combined with her ability to turn on a dime and nonchalantly ask me to call her about my daughter's birthday, simultaneously reinforces my need for NC but also twists me up.

I guess I feel like my only choice is NC, which I guess means it's not a choice at all. Who knows what will happen in the future, but their current path isn't a good one. And they refuse to let LC be a thing because then they get mad it's not enough (heck, even in my mom's email last week she blasted me for the fact we'd been making day trips to see them and not staying overnight).

If you are debating it or can't see a clear benefit, likely best to maintain NC.  

For better or worse, that's probably true. I'd like to reach that blissfully unaware you mentioned.

The social media thing:  It's interesting that it's a "roundabout" communication method.  A statement was made about the status of your marriage, without explicitly stating it.  You gained insight into family dynamics as well.

I would encourage you to evaluate (and potentially discuss with your T), the value of continuing to "send message" via social media compared to "not participating in drama".

I would hope that you can find a way to have a "healthy" social media presence and not limit or expand social media because of some in your family.    Any ideas on what that may look like?

I should probably clarify the FaceBook part. My wife didn't mean to send my parents a message with her post (they couldn't see it anyway) she just felt the need to make some sort of positive post in the context of our marriage. Not knowing what rumors are out there about us now or who has heard them, she at least wanted to put some positivity out there about us. I think I did call her post a "response" in my earlier post, but I suppose that wasn't really accurate. Reaction probably would have been a better word. Sorry for any confusion there!

[formflier]

So if it wasn't a message to her parents (the FB post), how did they find out about it?  And then they talked to  a cousin or something after seeing the cousins like (if I remember right).

Best,

FF

[ProudDad12]

So if it wasn't a message to her parents (the FB post), how did they find out about it?  And then they talked to  a cousin or something after seeing the cousins like (if I remember right).

Best,

FF

Our best guess was my sister or my sister in law saw it and said something to my parents. My sister and SIL hadn't de-friended or blocked my wife and vice versa. If I had to guess, I'd say it was my sister who told them. While she's only dipped her toe in the conflict directly with us (presumably because she's seen we're not afraid of NC), she's my parent's GC and basically my mom's mini-me. She shares more with my mom than her husband. I've been grateful she's stayed out of this, but I'm having trouble not imagining her seeing where my cousin liked the post and immediately reporting it to my mom. That's when my dad told my aunt to tell my cousin to not like any more of her stuff.

I can't believe I just typed that. So petty and surreal.

And don't get me wrong, I personally hate FB and never get on it anymore. Which I guess makes it all the more frustrating when stupid and petty stuff like this still finds me. Like a few days ago when my mom posted pictures of our kids on her FB for Halloween, with the attention-crying comment that she doesn't get to see them this Halloween. A screenshot of that still made its way to me. What makes me want to scream in frustration there is the fact that in all the years on "good terms", they only came up to see our kids ONCE on Halloween. So they likely wouldn't have seen them either way; but that doesn't make for good attention seeking.

[formflier]

Hey.  As an example of my LC. 

We couldn't find my first graders ipad this morning.  I had been out of town for a few days, so there was a chance it was left at the grandparents house.

I texted them to ask if they could look.  They texted back they couldn't find it.  I texted back thanks.

Doubtful I will have any contact with them for another week or two.

No..I'm not suggesting you try to get there "tomorrow", yet I will predict you will likely end up there in 6 months or so.

Why?

What are the chances they are going to change?

I approach my in laws on "my terms"..."my limited terms".  I did used to wish they would change or be different. 

Whatever you can do to start organizing you mind that "they are who they are" will be something that helps you.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=296225.0

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I had a boundary that they were not to talk about/to or characterize my wife a certain way. Early on, had they responded like reasonable people and sincerely apologized, things might have been different (can't say for sure, my wife would have been a much harder sell for them). But they persisted, and I enforced my boundary via NC.

Proud dad- I will poke a hole in this boundary with your parents. It's easy to err with boundaries when first learning about BPD and these dynamics. I made many of them with my parents as well when I tried this.

A boundary is not about the other person. It's about us. For instance, we can't have a boundary on a robber. We can not say " my boundary is that you will not break into my house". It has no effect on the robber- the robber is going to do what the robber does. The robber isn't going to be reasonable and sincerely apologize. The robber is being who they are- a robber.

Your boundary is to lock the doors to your house, not expect the robber to change.

For example- my mother snoops through personal stuff. She's very sneaky about it. She excuses herself to use the restroom and doesn't return for a while. She's upstairs rummaging through our drawers, papers, whatever. I could ask her to stop. I could have a boundary " you will not snoop" but that does nothing. If she visits, we lock up personal things cause she's going to do what she does.

We can't change another person. My parents do what they do, see me as they see me, and say whatever they say about me. It makes no difference whether I am NC, LC, or in complezte contact with them. They don't "see the light, or get reasonable, or apologize because that isn't how they perceive things. My mother has a disorder that affects her perception of me. She has said horrible things about me to others. I can't do anything about this.

My decision to be LC, NC, or any kind of contact is about me, and as FF said- what I am able to manage. It also reflects my own values. She's an elderly widow who is alone and I could not deal with being NC at this time. She may say bad things about me, but that doesn't make them true. She really can't hurt me. I don't need to have a locked door with her. However, I don't trust her with personal information, so for me, I choose LC.

However, there are members here on this board whose mothers are more abusive and they need to be NC with them- for their own emotional well being. It isn't about their mothers changing their behaviors.

I also think it helps to weigh the benefits/consequences of a decision. I wanted a relationship with my father. NC would have meant being NC with him. I didn't think I could do that, so I didn't choose NC. NC also meant an awkward situation with family members connected to my mother. Basically, I didn't think it was for me.

So back to your boundary- it was about your parents changing their behavior. But a boundary is about you.. Perhaps it would help to focus on what works for you best. They are who they are.

[ProudDad12]

Thanks, that's something for me to think about. I guess I had been looking at it like a fence to my property or something... It's my boundary/limit/line, etc. It's possible to jump over or break the fence, but if you do, I have to do something to enforce the boundary. So if I drew the line that my wife was to be treated respectfully, I enforce the boundary with NC, and if they don't stop, the NC becomes the new boundary. Not to punish them, but to "protect" us.

Comparing what I just typed to re-reading your message, I think where I was differing was I saw my initial "boundary" as "soft". So to combine our analogies, I can have the fence, but it's easy to jump. If I see someone jump the fence and coming for my house, I make sure the doors to the house are locked (so I guess in my case, blocking on the phone). There's still ways to get in, so I have to close them off as I see them.

I don't know, I'm trying to be deep while only a quarter of the way through my morning coffee . Thanks for the insight, definitely something I'm going to mull on.

Side note, I got a taste of irony last night. Long story short, my cousin and my brother got into it last night because she commented on something on FaceBook that my mom, my sister, and SIL all assumed was an attack on my SIL (it was not, they just assume everything is an attack). Well, in the discussion, my brother told my cousin that he won't let people talk about his wife that way! When I found out I almost doubled over with the hypocrisy, seeing as that's been my point all along during this stuff with them. But it's like I've said before, they are both sensitive and insensitive. This stuff only works in one direction with them.

Might be bad of me to say, but I was glad it at least wasn't me or my wife in the crosshairs this time! It also was another of many good illustrations of why I hate and stay off of FB. Anyway, off topic, but it hit on the crux of all the stuff we've been dealing with.

[formflier]

I'm a words guy and in some cases I think the nuance is not really nuance, but a massive difference.

Think about what your brother said about "not letting" other people talk a certain way about certain people.

Does your brother get a vote in what other people do with their mouths?

Right...no.  

Is your brother really going to get in his car, drive across town, break in a house and duct tape a persons mouth shut so they will cease a form of speech he disagrees with?  

Again..right.  Yet look at this... your brother is saying he will do things he cannot do.  How is that going to work out for him (and others that try that)?

Now...try this on for size.

I will not remain in the presence of people that talk disrespectfully to me or my wife.

Can you brother "enforce" that?  

How does this relate to your particular situation?

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

I'm a words guy and in some cases I think the nuance is not really nuance, but a massive difference.

Think about what your brother said about "not letting" other people talk a certain way about certain people.

Does your brother get a vote in what other people do with their mouths?

Right...no.  

Is your brother really going to get in his car, drive across town, break in a house and duct tape a persons mouth shut so they will cease a form of speech he disagrees with?  

Again..right.  Yet look at this... your brother is saying he will do things he cannot do.  How is that going to work out for him (and others that try that)?

Now...try this on for size.

I will not remain in the presence of people that talk disrespectfully to me or my wife.

Can you brother "enforce" that?  

How does this relate to your particular situation?

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

Bingo.

[ProudDad12]

Yeah, I get what y'all are saying, and understand the difference. And I've probably used my brother's wording myself. But yeah y'all capture my intention, to separate us from their words and behavior. I know they'll still say what they say, I just want us to be away from it.

[formflier]

  I just want us to be away from it.

There you go. 

Now it's about you and your family.  Start thinking about your values and let boundaries flow from that.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

Read that a few times..keep the focus on you and your family  I bet your post in a day or two will have a different feel to it.

We can help nudge things from there.  You've got this!   

Best,

FF

[Imatter33]

Hi all,

The collective work that we (ALL) have been doing on this board alone has been tremendous in the last few days for me. Thanks everyone.

Thank you PD12 for not being afraid to start a conversation that matters.

FF,
I finally got it. After your advice to me about whose terms the relationship was on, some youtube videos from Brene Brown on boundaries...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U3VcgUzqiI

and the above article you posted...

I feel a bit of a Eureka moment.

Boundaries are not about my family member changing. Boundaries are not about punishing the person for not changing. Boundaries are about me! Nc was not an ultimatum.

So here I am realizing that had I not gone No Contact and my behind in counseling, I simply would not have realized this.

TBH im not all that great at boundary setting. Can you believe? Lol.

Well I do have tools, and support to guide me. I sense some hope.

For the first time in Months I feel the pressure is off. My nc was not an ultimatum to my family member it was a necessity for me to learn how to set these boundaries. So that if contact is to be had at any point. I am stronger, wiser, more compassionate, etc.  because i am setting boundaries in the right way.

Again...Eureka.

[MrHT]

I'm sorry for what you are going through.  I have the same exact situation with my uBPD family member.  I eventually went NC about 8 months ago. 

From my experience (and failures), I would not try to justify yourself her.  That will do you no good what-so-ever.  I wouldn't lash out on her either (although it would feel good it would just fuel the fire).

She is trying to control you via FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt). 

If you choice to response.  Respond with how she makes you feel and set boundaries.   "Mom what you are saying makes me feel <insert feelings here> <Set clear boundary next> 

It is also PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE not to answer at all.  Verbal abuse (which is what this is) does not need to be replied to.  I told my mother if she to verbally abuse me I would not response to her.  Since that is all she does I have gone NC with her since February.   It was hard but I was loosing my mind everything I received communications from her.  It was like PTSD would set in when I saw an unread message from her