Can't quite put my finger on it—Part 6

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

This is a continuation of a previous thread:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341080.Okay, so I have taken a couple of days to gather my thoughts, which are still a little jumbled. I will avoid getting bogged down in the detail, since a lot of the detail is incorrect, but I can only blame myself for poorly communicating that.

The thing is, I consider myself to see the bigger picture, I see myself considering the second order outcomes of the decisions I make now rolling through into the future. Which if anything has made my contemplation of what action to take now as more complicated. I consider being proactive now as having disastrous effects on the future as much as I see being to objectionary and passive now as having disastrous effects on the future. I have to marry what I want with what is achievable and what is deliverable. For example, 50/50 custody (decision making) is very plausible and not objected to by my W, but 50/50 parental care is somewhat binary (given I would need to reduce CSA income substantially to be able to afford the childcare necessary to pay for someone to care for the children when I am not there) and being a realist, I know full well the probability of any court in the UK (if I pushed it to that point) giving me 50/50 access given my working hours and no provable professionally certified BPD diagnosis is almost zero. It's not that I don't want these things, it's just that applying a probability to the outcome means pursuing them is futile. Instead, working to preserve the ability for the children to have the choice to live at mine when it's reasonable for them to take themselves to school and come home on their own, or when I am able to facilitate using other childcare. The nesting idea... how would this work practically and financially? I leave at 5:15 and get back at 19:30 once a week, does my W come back to the house to do the school run? Where does the money come from to rent and run the other property?

The bigger picture is that what my W says she is going to do is not what necessarily happens. What my W says she wants is not necessarily what her actions point to achieving. Skip, you say "Enabler's wife is focusing on her future and is on her way to building a new life in which she can fold the children into – a  partner, a house, a second income, primary custodial care of children -who knows- maybe a dog, and boat. She has her eyes on the future and a new family." What part of her behaviours and actions do you consider are actually pointing in this direction? She's filled in a few forms, she's got someone else to do a spreadsheet for her, she's got herself a part time job... but when it comes to embracing anything remotely like adopting a single mum function and responsibility she's run in completely the opposite direction. When it comes to being proactive about pushing the divorce through (as she says she wants to in assertive emails) why is it that she doesn't follow through?... hence the title of this thread "Can't quite put my finger on it". In some way, telling the kids cements the direction of this D process and means it can't be changed. Up to this point all the 'things' my W has done are in the shadows, it's still in fantasy land, it's not in reality.

Cat, I get your point, but as I wrote in https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=340788.msg13086813#msg13086813 I don't see that negatives of the current situation is better than the positives of the new world. I could be wrong, but my kids seem on the whole happy, and most importantly seem happy with me and the role that I play in their lives. The reality of the new world is that they would have less of me, and whichever way I slice it and I can only see that being net net negative to the situation. Notwendy has a disordered mother and what could have been perceived as a weak but good father, what would that situation have looked like had she had a disordered mother with a strong good father? What would it have looked like if her mother and father had divorced when she was young and she was left primarily in the care of her disordered mother?

Fawning is a choice, as much as fight and flight. I don't see how fawning when considered (not out of fear) is a bad thing vs the other 2 options which strike me as having very negative outcomes. Skip, could you expand on how you believe I use FOG to resist?

Enabler

[Enabler]

This is a continuation of a previous thread:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341080.Okay, so I have taken a couple of days to gather my thoughts, which are still a little jumbled. I will avoid getting bogged down in the detail, since a lot of the detail is incorrect, but I can only blame myself for poorly communicating that.

The thing is, I consider myself to see the bigger picture, I see myself considering the second order outcomes of the decisions I make now rolling through into the future. Which if anything has made my contemplation of what action to take now as more complicated. I consider being proactive now as having disastrous effects on the future as much as I see being to objectionary and passive now as having disastrous effects on the future. I have to marry what I want with what is achievable and what is deliverable. For example, 50/50 custody (decision making) is very plausible and not objected to by my W, but 50/50 parental care is somewhat binary (given I would need to reduce CSA income substantially to be able to afford the childcare necessary to pay for someone to care for the children when I am not there) and being a realist, I know full well the probability of any court in the UK (if I pushed it to that point) giving me 50/50 access given my working hours and no provable professionally certified BPD diagnosis is almost zero. It's not that I don't want these things, it's just that applying a probability to the outcome means pursuing them is futile. Instead, working to preserve the ability for the children to have the choice to live at mine when it's reasonable for them to take themselves to school and come home on their own, or when I am able to facilitate using other childcare. The nesting idea... how would this work practically and financially? I leave at 5:15 and get back at 19:30 once a week, does my W come back to the house to do the school run? Where does the money come from to rent and run the other property?

The bigger picture is that what my W says she is going to do is not what necessarily happens. What my W says she wants is not necessarily what her actions point to achieving. Skip, you say "Enabler's wife is focusing on her future and is on her way to building a new life in which she can fold the children into – a  partner, a house, a second income, primary custodial care of children -who knows- maybe a dog, and boat. She has her eyes on the future and a new family." What part of her behaviours and actions do you consider are actually pointing in this direction? She's filled in a few forms, she's got someone else to do a spreadsheet for her, she's got herself a part time job... but when it comes to embracing anything remotely like adopting a single mum function and responsibility she's run in completely the opposite direction. When it comes to being proactive about pushing the divorce through (as she says she wants to in assertive emails) why is it that she doesn't follow through?... hence the title of this thread "Can't quite put my finger on it". In some way, telling the kids cements the direction of this D process and means it can't be changed. Up to this point all the 'things' my W has done are in the shadows, it's still in fantasy land, it's not in reality.

Cat, I get your point, but as I wrote in https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=340788.msg13086813#msg13086813 I don't see that negatives of the current situation is better than the positives of the new world. I could be wrong, but my kids seem on the whole happy, and most importantly seem happy with me and the role that I play in their lives. The reality of the new world is that they would have less of me, and whichever way I slice it and I can only see that being net net negative to the situation. Notwendy has a disordered mother and what could have been perceived as a weak but good father, what would that situation have looked like had she had a disordered mother with a strong good father? What would it have looked like if her mother and father had divorced when she was young and she was left primarily in the care of her disordered mother?

Fawning is a choice, as much as fight and flight. I don't see how fawning when considered (not out of fear) is a bad thing vs the other 2 options which strike me as having very negative outcomes. Skip, could you expand on how you believe I use FOG to resist?

Enabler

[Notwendy]

Enabler, my sense when I have made suggestions feels similar to when my kids have asked for help writing an essay. Of course, I'm not going to write it for them. It's theirs, not mine. But I would make suggestions and often the reply was " I don't like this- this is how I want to do it" and after a few suggestions they'd have their essay-- their way. As it should be.

You have written retorts to why suggestions don't fit your situation as you see it. Maybe, like my kids' essays- that is the value of them- not that you accept them but that you articulate your reasons for not accepting them. And if this is the case, I hope that they have had this sort of value for you.

I've always respected that you ultimately have the choice, regardless of what anyone has written here. You are the "author" of this situation.

I can only see it through my own perspective of observing a similar pattern ( but not the same people and all relationships are different) in my parents with  my mother somehow being able to do things without consequence or responsibility. She always had a good reason, whatever it was. If she wanted to go out, she didn't worry about child care, or dishes, or anything else. To me as a parent - this isn't realistic. Most parents can't go out without arranging child care at least. But it was my Dad's choice and they remained married. Maybe, like you, he had his reasons.

She threatened divorce from time to time. I don't know how far she would take it. As a kid, I wasn't privy to these details. Was this being dishonest or were my parents protecting me as a young kid. I will leave this to you to decide.

But she didn't follow through, and I think I know why. She had it darn good with my father and even if her thinking was in victim mode, I think at some level she knew it would not be likely to find a man who provided this for her, and also was more invested emotionally in her kids than I think she was capable of. It isn't that she didn't care, but her disorder made her less capable of nurturing. She also said she would do things but didn't follow through, so I understand when you say this about your wife.  I think this is the benefit to you of what you are doing. Limbo is predictable. Changing it might lead to something better - or not, she may actually leave and that's a risk I don't think you want to take. Limbo also works for her too. She gets the romance with one guy, the support and reliability with you. I think at some level she knows this and maybe that is why she's dragging her feet.

Sure, there are drawbacks to this situation, but back to the cost/benefit of choices - we all have to weigh this our own way. I think one purpose of these threads is to bring a perspective, but ultimately all choices are yours.

[Enabler]

Notwendy, I do so love your advice and certainly take many many takeaways especially from your experience as a child. I've said before that often the different path feels lazy, obstructive and selfish... vs my natural character of being a team player and collegial. It's for the greater good yes, but I don't see being a team player as a bad trait and therefore killing a bad trait to invoke change sits kinda oddly. 

I need to get my head around how it is that since (our assumptions) it's so hard for her to leave because I am too proficient and her life is too easy, that she doesn't see that I am a good thing. Is this like the job you hate that pays you tons of money? You probably turn up late every day, do a terrible job in the hope that the decision is made for you and you get fired, vs walking out and denying yourself the good income? The problem I have squaring that circle is that many of the things she says are soo  bad with me are the very things that might consider are holding her from running out the door:

- I'm abusive to the kids > I'm a attentive father and excellent babysitter
- I'm controlling with money > she refuses to agree to a fixed 'budget' each month and is worried about being financially responsible
- I'm lazy > she can't cope with the amount of stuff she has to do especially looking after the 3 kids
- I spent too much time working on the house (my hobby apparently) > she's concerned about looking after her new house
- I'm out with work too much > she would have to curtail her social life
- I'm abusive to her > who will she have to abuse if she doesn't have me there

Enabler

[formflier]

Enabler,

I'm wondering if the focus shifted from what you wife is doing to the kids, if that would change the dynamic.

Here is the thing, your wife's life seems to revolve around serving in her church and the OM. 

Can you look at her life and express to us how important her children are for her?  Or perhaps how much time she invests in them, compared to the other two activities.

Then look at your life and rank things according to your time investments.

Then I'm wondering if you removed the time investment towards your wife and applied it to your kids, what would that look like compared to 50/50 in a divorce.

My gut tells me you would have more time with kids...but that's an assumption that needs to be challenged/examined by you.

Then...think about the satisfaction you get from your life now and how it might change with extra time/energy directed towards kids.

I mention this as a strategy because we all seem to agree there is a stalemate with the marriage and you don't want to divorce.

Maybe there's a pathway in this idea, maybe not.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I think that the focus on your wife’s feelings and pondering them is what Skip pointed out as codependent behaviors . If these are not consistent with reality then they aren’t. They are distorted thinking. If she claimed you were a pink elephant - would you be pondering that? This is an example of a poor boundary. People can say what they say - but if it isn’t true - it’s not.

It could also be projection or other distortion . By pondering or acting on them -you in a way validate them. But you could also just consider them to be irrational. Victim perspective distorts things . She may as well have said you are the man on the moon and the moon is made of cheese.

[Skip]

I need to get my head around how it is that since (our assumptions) it's so hard for her to leave because I am too proficient and her life is too easy, that she doesn't see that I am a good thing.

I know you've read my three-legged stole metaphor. This is classic.

Leg One - Romance (OM)
Leg Two - Finances (Enabler)
Leg Three - Child Care (Enabler)

Read RomanticFool's early posts. He had a similar thing going as your wife (no kids).

Affairs often get stuck. The member above agonized her for years of not being able to move one direction or the other. The long term affair partner dumped him and he focused on his wife for 3-4 months and then moved on and got another and still was caught between deciding.

Both affair partner II and wife finally made the decision for him, and dumped him.

He describe his wife as mature. loyal, great companion, and financially necessary. He used her as a doormat for 12 years... and he would still be doing this if she left him.

He is an extreme case of caught in the middle - most times, the doormat partner get fed up or the romance partner becomes the new relationship. But everyday of the 12 years, RM  was longing to be with his affair partner and she occupied his emotional life. Doormat cooked him dinner.

I'm not suggesting that your situation is the same, but it is similar.

[Notwendy]

Isn’t this the outcome of choice ? As long as the three legs of the stool are there- wife gets her needs met and marriage doesn’t legally dissolve. Basically it stays like this unless wife completes divorce plans or OM leaves. If he leaves - Enabler will still be there. Wife can leave but incentives to keep things as they are are there.

It may not be a great choice personally for enabler but he’s stated that’s less important than having circumstances that possibly keep the divorced process delayed. He has stated he is willing to endure personal discomfort for this outcome.

[Skip]

Basically it stays like this unless wife completes divorce plans or OM leaves.

Is it stable? Typically not. The wife is abusing the husband in this case and as long as he goes along with it, he is communicating that he deserves it and the wife ups the abuse. I think enabler is seeing this, right?

Often it blows up one day in a disastrous way. We've seen it happen here. Husband goes into hospital, wife locks him out and files TRO. Parent dies, wife can't be bothered with the grieving and acts out.

It's a ticking time bomb.

It may not be a great choice personally for enabler ... he has stated he is willing to endure personal discomfort for this outcome.

It would be one thing if this was two mature adults that decide on divorcing in 5 years for he children's sake and embark on an open marriage with rules.

The situation here is abuser and abused with the outcome totally unpredictable.

At some point, self sacrifice is pathological. Is that the case - is this within the realms of "difficult, but not detrimental".  That is a question I would look for outside advice -  from some one who is radically frank and very close - parents, therapist.

[Notwendy]

Skip- I agree with what you say- and it’s been said in different ways but each time the choice to keep the status quo is defended.

I watched my mother abuse my father in a similar pattern. Yet nothing could convince him to consider other ways to deal with this. I’m not sure what else to say but to put the choices out there- But know that each person makes their own choices.

[Cat Familiar]

It’s not a benign situation, no matter how skillful Enabler is about navigating it. There are three little girls watching how their parents conduct a marriage.

[Skip]

For example, 50/50 custody (decision making) is very plausible and not objected to by my W, but 50/50 parental care is somewhat binary (given I would need to reduce CSA income substantially to be able to afford the childcare necessary to pay for someone to care for the children when I am not there) and being a realist, I know full well the probability of any court in the UK (if I pushed it to that point) giving me 50/50 access given my working hours and no provable professionally certified BPD diagnosis is almost zero. It's not that I don't want these things, it's just that applying a probability to the outcome means pursuing them is futile...

Is this the only future scenario you see as possible?

Sure, if you refuse help from your mom, don't plan on building a new family (have a partner), and are committed to long hours at the office - it's not likely that you will get 50%:50% visitation.

At the same time, there are hardworking men that have solved this equation and gotten 50% visitation - some with very intense work commitments.

It would take time and effort to make the changes needed. You have that time.

I'm not suggesting that you do this. I am suggesting that you not convince yourself that you have no options.

If you just wait it out in status quo - you will likely have no options.

Does that make sense? No one is telling you what to do, but you are getting a serious sanity check on the assumptions you are making decisions by (by people who care).

[Enabler]

Please can you help me visualise how that would work since I am utterly unable to conceptualise how these options could work for me.

Thanks

Enabler

[sweetheart]

Please can you help me visualise how that would work since I am utterly unable to conceptualise how these options could work for me.

Thanks

Enabler

Enabler I wrote out a response about what 50/50 custody might look like for you further back in this thread. My suggestions were based on information that you had already offered on here, but you didn’t even consider it as an option despite previously saying that it could be an option.

You are backing yourself into such a tight corner. You post, receive a slew of suggestions, support and advice, but remain firmly backed into your corner.

What would a way out of your current situation look like for you, what would you offer as support to yourself if you had to reply to your posts?

[Enabler]

The option of my mother looking after the children for more than 1 night a week is not a long term solution. Not least because she and I are chalk and cheese. I tolerate my mother, we are very very different people. Skips suggestion seemed to be to find another wife to be childcare... really?

[Skip]

I have this image in my mind...



I apologize for pulling on the reins.

[Enabler]

I need long term solutions that last longer than a week.

I'm not actually divorced yet, emotionally separated but not divorced. Going out dating or canvassing for a new partner feels completely immoral, my wife might be behaving this way, that doesn't mean that I should. I believe in the sanctity of marriage, I have a hard line on that.

Also, I thought it was generally prescribed that someone should ensure they are fully recovered from their previous relationship before entering a new one?

Your water sounds poisonous and likely to quench my thirst temporarily. 

[Notwendy]

I don't think he means dating right now. I agree it would be in the future, if at all.

It's more about visualizing what you want for the long run, if your marriage isn't repaired. It's more about taking a look at your own value as a human being with your own interests rather than what your wife wants. By values, I mean considering the value of yourself. You are more than just a doormat to your wife. But you also may choose to stay single and celibate - if that is truly your choice.

I agree that someone in your situation should not be dating right now, and in the event that there is a divorce, not get into a relationship right away and do some emotional recovery.  But deciding to never date if you were to become single could also be reacting too far in the other direction or it could be a genuine choice. At this point, it's not on the table, there are larger issues.

[Enabler]

I didn't get that impression... oh wow... that's massively different... here goes:

I would like to buy a end of terrace victorian house min a road in the middle of the village. It has 4 beds (1 in the loft that is big enough to have 2 beds in it) which will be helpful for when my mum can stay and look after the kids. It's currently got a glass conservatory on the back which I'd like to replace with a solid ceiling because I know that the glass conservatory's tend to be too hot in the summer and too cold in the winter. I'd also like to put a log burner in the corner of this room to make it cosy in the winter.

The garden is a bit shabby at the moment which is great as I like a project. I'd probably put a deck out the back then replace grass with Astroturf as I hate wasting my saturdays mowing the lawn. I'd like a Cob oven (going on a course) in the back right, probably with a gas BBQ next to it and an area for preparing pizzas out the back.

Initially D9 and D11 will be able to come back to mine straight from school and let themselves in (they'd likely have to sleep at W's due to me not being there in the morning. This won't be possible for D6. I'd likely put something in the slow cooker for them the night before and turn it on when I leave and they can just help themselves around dinner time. If possible I will try and negotiate with work working from home every now and again... not currently allowed for compliance reasons. This will enable me to drop D6 at school and pick her up without need for annoying Mum (mine).

Join Tinder for a variety of "get back on the horse fun experiences to build confidence"... not that I need much of a confidence boost talking to other people, I do it all day in a business sense. Dump a few people... never done that before ever. Encourage someone to arrive at my home just wearing underware under a rain coat.

Take the girls to the US, doing this road trip shorturl.at/aeJ01

Take the kids to Iceland and see the Northern Lights.

Buy a Beagle and call it Brian.

Is that visualising my future enough?

[Skip]

What do you think about this advice? Sound like your situation is some ways...

When should we tell our kids that we’re getting a divorce?
Alan Ravitz, MD, MS

My husband and I have begun divorce mediation. He plans to continue living at home b/c of financial issues. We are putting our house up for sale in another month. When should we tell the children about divorce? Wait until he moves out? It's so stressful! The girls are ages, 12, 10 & 6.

Generally you want to tell your children about your decision to get a divorce sooner rather than later. You do not want to wait until your husband moves out. Kids are incredibly intuitive, so even though you think they might not know about this, they could already have an idea. And it is important for them to hear it from you, and not from anyone else. The sooner you talk about it, the better.

There are some exceptions to this rule. You shouldn’t tell your kids that you’re divorcing unless you are absolutely sure about the divorce. If you are still going to be living with each other for another year, then your kids might not need to know. But if the separation is going to occur within the next two or three months, or if the parenting plan (also known as a custody agreement) is going to go into effect, or someone is going to file within the next two or three months, then you should definitely discuss it.

Now, there are some things you should and shouldn’t do when you have this conversation. You should both be there when you tell the kids. You should try to have some idea of what the parenting plan will be, and you should share that with the kids in as straightforward a fashion as possible. You should be careful not to assign any blame. The divorce needs to be presented as a joint decision. It isn’t anyone’s fault—not mom’s or dad’s and certainly not the kids’. They need to know that both their parents love them and will continue to be available to them, and that they aren’t going to be placed in the middle so they won’t need to choose sides.

You should also be prepared for anger or sadness. Every kid will hear the news in a different way. You know their personalities and temperaments, so you should try to anticipate how each of your children is going to react, and you should come up with a strategy to deal with that reaction.

Don’t tell them around holidays or birthdays. Don’t tell them in a public place, or just before bedtime. If one of your kids lashes out against you or your husband, be prepared to stick up for each other. If one of your daughters says, “Oh dad, you’ve always been so mean,” be ready to disagree. Say, “Your dad always tries to be a good parent and he loves you.”

This conversation also should not be an opportunity to make your argument. If you’re really intent on doing that, save it for the courtroom.
https://childmind.org/ask-an-expert-qa/when-should-we-tell-our-kids-that-were-getting-a-divorce/

[Skip]

Guide to Telling the Children about the Divorce
Lisa Herrick, Ph.D.

When parents talk to the children, there are a few really important messages to repeat over and over again – during the conversation, and in the months following:

~this is something mom and dad have decided after a long time of trying to make things work better.

~this is an adult decision and has NOTHING to do with anything the children did or said; help the children understand they also cannot control this decision to separate/divorce by behaving “extra nicely”.

~no one is blaming anyone else — the children are free to continue loving each parent fully without fear of betraying other parent or feeling disloyal (this may be the toughest challenge for many parents, but it is CRUCIAL if you want to protect the children from pain and maladjustment).

~a lot of different feelings are normal — we all will feel sad, angry, worried, and maybe curious about the future — all feelings are normal – parents welcome listening to all feelings and will try to help the children no matter how they feel.
    
~ we are still a family – we are just changing. We will still be your mom and dad, no one is going away (as long as this is true), and mom and dad will love them as much as ever; if one parent IS moving some distance away, reassure the children that they will see that parent regularly, and explain how that might be accomplished.

If possible, tell them the plan — it does not need to be extremely detailed, but you should be able to tell them the basics — who will stay in the house? who will be moving out – and approximately where? If a parent is still looking at apartments/houses, it is ok to invite the children to come with you to look at the new places – if they don’t want to come, leave it alone. If a parent already has found a place, it is good to tell children where it is, and bring them over to see it within a few days. Tell them the basic plan — that they will see both parents every week, that they will see both parents every weekend – basic reassurance that they will be with Dad sometimes and with Mom sometimes, and (ideally) you will be all together sometimes for things like soccer games and celebrations (some celebrations – perhaps….but don’t promise anything you cannot deliver.)

For a second conversation – a few days after the first, If you know some more of the details of the plan, like “Dad will be driving you to school every day just like he does now” tell them that. Anything that is staying the same, mention and reassure them that these things will remain the SAME. The things that will be different – “Mom will be driving you to school now – we know that is DIFFERENT, but we are going to try to make that work, and Mom can do some of the same fun things that Dad did…we’ll see how it goes and you can tell us what is working, and what is not working.”

Be ready for any reactions – children sometimes have tantrums, cry, or say, “When is dinner?” and pretend they didn’t hear you. Some kids ask a lot of questions, and some ask nothing. The children who say nothing need to be coaxed over the coming weeks and months to talk to you, to draw pictures about it, to read books with you about it….etc. The children who ask a lot of questions need to be answered, and reassured over and over again.

If parents get choked up, or cry, it is OK. Acknowledge that this is a sad event for the family, but you will all try to help each other with this, and you will all still love each other. If one parent starts to get mad, or say things that are upsetting or scary for the children, the other parent should RESCUE the situation, NOT MAKE IT WORSE — just say, Mom/Dad is really upset, and this is hard for us all. Let’s take a little break, and we’ll talk again later. I understand how hard this is for all of us. — Be forgiving, even if your spouse is not handling it well – this is for the sake of the children who may feel – initially – like the world is falling apart. You are going to try to make the world still feel safe, even if the reality as they know it is changing dramatically.

Let your children know you will ALL get through this – and you will. Let them know that they will be OK, and you will be OK, and you will all help each other adjust and adapt to the changes coming. If you can offer both empathy and acceptance for what your children feel, AND reassurance that even the toughest feelings will get easier over time your children will be able to recover and remain open with you about their feelings.

Do your best to treat your co-parent well over the next several weeks – and beyond! Your children will be watching and worrying that if you are getting a divorce, it might mean you (their parents) are going to turn into aliens, or you will behave in embarrassing ways, or you will no longer be “normal” parents and make them eat their broccoli. During the weeks and months following this difficult conversation try hard to treat your co-parent with respect and compassion, and try to keep to as many regular family routines and rituals as you can manage – even if you and your co-parent are doing many of them separately. The children will come to see that though some things are really different, some things will remain the same – and that will help them gradually recover and adjust.
https://lisaherrick.com/separation-and-divorce-work/guide-to-telling-the-children-about-the-divorce/

[Skip]

What Should We Tell the Children? Developing a Mutual Story of the Divorce
Donald T. Saposnek

Understandably, when parents divorce, each has his or her version of the reasons for the split-up. Moreover, each parent typically attributes the cause of the divorce to the other parent. Because marital separations tend to be very complex, multi-layered matters, with multiple contributing factors, both parents may be presenting accurate realities from their respective points of view. However, children believe that there can only be one truth about a given matter. The idea that there may be multiple truths is beyond the grasp of most children, since it requires a level of abstract thinking of which children are not yet capable (except, perhaps, for older teenagers). Thus, in order to help children come to terms with the fact of their parents’ divorce, it is most helpful for them to hear only one mutual and consistent story of why their parents split up.

Children do not like hearing that one of their parents is the cause for the divorce and is responsible for the pain of everyone in the family. Children don’t like having a “bad” parent, but prefer to have two good parents. When the divorce is blamed on one of the parents, the children, in effect, are being persuaded to relinquish love for that parent, or, to feel confused and guilty about loving their “bad” parent and displeasing their “good” parent. If, however, both parents mutually take responsibility for the break-up, then their children are set free from being caught in the middle of a loyalty conflict.

When I ask parents to formulate a mutual story of their divorce, initially, many are unable. Most of us, when rejected by a person we love or once loved, tend to protect our self-esteem by blaming another for our failures. Certainly, divorce provides a golden opportunity to do this. However, when each parent resists and rises above this tendency for the sake of the children, the children are provided a chance for a better outcome.
https://www.mediate.com/articles/falleditorial.cfm

[Enabler]

Skip, those pieces make great sense and I don't refute a single word. As I have said in previous posts, I have been pushing to expedite telling the kids and very much agree with this point:

Generally you want to tell your children about your decision to get a divorce sooner rather than later. You do not want to wait until your husband moves out. Kids are incredibly intuitive, so even though you think they might not know about this, they could already have an idea. And it is important for them to hear it from you, and not from anyone else. The sooner you talk about it, the better.

We have a difference of opinion and maybe this is something I need to straighten out in my head. I see 2 separate things.
 
1) The responsibility for the disintegration of our marriage - We are both very much responsible for that and therefore, individual blame is futile and irrelevant to any conversation with children. We adults are unable to agree let alone fully understand the division of blame so there is no way that any child might be able to make sense of it.

2) The choice to resolve the disintegration of the marriage by divorcing - In some cases this IS a joint decision even if a couple cannot agree on why the marriage has disintegrated. In some cases this is NOT a joint decision.

The articles you have sent me appear to tackle point 1, and I utterly concur with them. I am jointly responsible for the relationship problems. I don't think the articles tackle point 2 though. I am not jointly responsible for the choice to resolve the relationship problems with a divorce. As the point above notes, and as you highlighted 'kids are incredibly intuitive' and my kids will know that I would not have chosen a divorce, even if they do not know nor understand (or need to) why Mummy and Daddy have argued and now sleep in separate rooms. Many members and parents have owned the choice to divorce without feeling the need to point the finger of blame as to why they reached that decision. I don't know but I would suspect that most people coming to the conclusion that divorce is the ONLY option would sit comfortably owning that choice, even if they did not sit comfortably casting blame onto their partner.

I'm not sure you see it that way.

Thanks for the articles, they were helpful.

Enabler 

[formflier]

So, you are seeing a difference in disintegration of a marriage and what to do about said disintegration?

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

Correct... differentiation between cause of problem and choice of solution

[kells76]

Skip, thanks for posting the links.

Hi Enabler, thanks for letting me pop in here from Family Law. I've been following your story because you have kiddos involved.

This may be a very "tree" post versus "forest" post, but for those tracking this thread who are in a similar position with kids, I would like to offer a thought about this point:

If one of your kids lashes out against you or your husband, be prepared to stick up for each other. If one of your daughters says, “Oh dad, you’ve always been so mean,” be ready to disagree. Say, “Your dad always tries to be a good parent and he loves you.”

I would suggest that there is a way to NOT vilify the other parent while NOT invalidating the kid.

Consider that when kids say "Mom never cared about us" or "Dad has always been mean", it's a feeling of theirs that they are bringing up.

When we reply something like "That's not true! Mom has done X, Y, and Z for you, and loves you SO MUCH" or "Dad is just having a hard time and tries really hard", what we're doing is essentially saying "You SHOULDN'T feel like Mom doesn't care".

I'd like to suggest that an alternative is to focus on the kids' feelings. We can get "off-target" by focusing on the content of the statement. What's in front of us is an insecure kid who is wondering -- DOES Mom care about me? IS Dad nice?

Instead, try something like "I would feel so sad if I thought Mom didn't care. How are you doing, buddy?" or "If I felt like Dad was always mean, I'd be pretty hurt. Want to talk about it [with both of us]?

Thanks for allowing me to share this alternative.

Cheers;

kells76

[Enabler]

Thanks Kells and glad you're keeping an eye on me. Much appreciated.

I've read the stuff on jujitsu parenting and very much like what I read, this kinda links into it. I've found it very effective when I've been verbally attacked by my D's when they're throwing a tantrum. It's effective when things are thrown at me, however I find that when verbal is being thrown at my W and I'm trying to take heat out of the situation my W doesn't so much see that it's just D throwing spanners. I'd like to add that it kinda depends if W is the centre of blame or if it's a general tantrum.

So in the example of a divorce conversation and D says to W "I can't believe you've done this too us, you're the worse Mum in the world", me saying "I can see how you feel that way" is likely to send my W into a whirlwind of fury. My D on the other hand might calm.

Enabler

[kells76]

To get very specific, there may be a difference in

I can see how you feel that way

versus

If I thought X... I would feel Y

That being said, this reads to me as a balance shift question.

Whose feelings get focused on in a divorce conversation?

For a while, it seems like

me saying "I can see how you feel that way" is likely to send my W into a whirlwind of fury

this was the focus.

Things are in a nebulous, uncomfortable rearrangement phase in your house.

I wonder what it would look like for your focus-balance to shift over to "how my kids are feeling", letting other adults manage themselves -- or not, whatever they pick.

Food for thought... but like I've mentioned before, I'm very much a "trees" versus "forest" person, and as much as we step in and look at the bark and leaves up close, it's equally important to get up in Skip's airplane, for example, and check out the whole stand of trees.