When Your Family Supports Your uBPD Ex

[StillHopeful73]

So I haven't posted here in awhile as it has been wonderfully quiet with my uBPD ex. Other than the odd passive-aggressive jab, he has been relatively non-combative over the past number of months. It has been blissful and I am thankful for it. And I know that as with his past patterns it won't last forever.

What hasn't been blissful is the ongoing issues with child support. I wrote about having issues with him in the summer. He owes over $7300 in backpay. That's not including daycare or our daughter's activities. He got a puppy in July which was very upsetting considering he hasn't been consistent with child support. I had vented on here and thought about reporting him to the Family Responsibility Office. Then he ended up paying child support for a couple of months so I thought maybe things were looking up. Maybe, just maybe he realized he needs to get his life together and be there financially for his little girl.

Well, I just found out he stopped working for the transport company he was working for over a month ago. The money I received for support in Sept/Oct must have been from his vacation payout (which I'm lucky I even got that, I guess). My mom sees him quite regularly as he goes there for dinner with our daughter on his time. He apparently stopped working there as he just couldn't justify working such long hours and didn't feel he had a life. So he quit. No cushion or job lined up...he just quit. So according to my mom, he has been "looking" for work for some time since then. Though every time she spoke with him about it, he was following a lead.

You have no idea how frustrated I am. Or maybe you do as I guess many of us are in the same boat. When I asked him recently via email if he had thought about what he was getting our daughter for Christmas, his response was that lately he was just trying to survive. Great.

My mom said he just recently started doing renovations with a friend from his church and men's church support group. I'm guessing this church support group doesn't talk about the importance of supporting your children financially, but whatever. When this man asked him how much he'd like to make per hour, his response was apparently, "Whatever you think is fair." Apparently, though according to him he isn't making much money, he is very happy with this new position.

So here I am. He is working under the table. There is no way I'm going to see anything as there is no "company" who will garnish his wages. Guess I should have submitted to the Family Responsibility Office a long time ago. Though my lawyer said it would be best to use it as leverage if/when we go back to court. Mind you, I'm pretty sure he would have just quit then when they took away his driver's license for not paying so who knows if I would have been better off.

So this is upsetting to me on it's own but what is even more upsetting is my mother's take on this. When I mentioned to her how I had thought about going through the Family Responsibility office to have his money deducted automatically, she wanted to make sure I was going to give a warning to him first. She was worried that if they tried to take away his money then he might get booted out of his apartment, and he'd be out on the street (and we would yet again worry about our daughter (her granddaughter) ANY time she was with him).

But why is this my problem? He is a grown able-bodied adult! My mother is firm that his lack of financial support is inexcusable yet she offers him a warm meal in a welcoming non-judgmental home when he is with our daughter 1-2 times/week. And now she's protecting him? WTH? I have told her she enables his behavior and she is adamant that she does it for her granddaughter. AND She says that when he is at her place and our daughter is out of earshot that she talks about the importance of working to support his daughter etc with him. She feels that her christian approach is better than being combative or closing the door in his face, since at least she knows where her granddaughter is. And she feels that her talking to him about the importance of working (even if it's soft) is a better approach than just letting him deal with it the hard way.
Knowing him like I do, I feel as if he's taking advantage of her and that all of her "talk" goes in one ear and out the other. I also don't understand how she can blatantly help and support a man who has so obviously disrespected her own daughter multiple times. What kind of message does that send to him about his behavior? She has taken care of his dog on occasion when he has had a meeting as he doesn't want to leave the dog alone at home. My mom has never even allowed my brother's or my dog to be in her home, as she didn't want her home to get wrecked. Yet, she has allowed his few month old very active german shepherd puppy in her home so that he could go to his meetings. It just blows my mind.

My mom and I have had a NUMBER of arguments about this, and about her involvement with him in general. It has really affected her and my relationship, unfortunately. He assaulted me in the past for crying out loud! In addition to that he has attacked me numerous times via text or email (40 page rants about how I'm only after money and questioning my parenting etc.). He has lied about me and made all kinds of accusations when he has been in his combative phases. He has had me (and more importantly our daughter) on a rollercoaster the past few years with his antics (intermittent talk of suicide, not working at times, asking me to help buy snacks for his time with her because he's broke, taking off for short periods of time etc). And he has been delinquent in child support over the past 2 1/2 years.

She says she doesn't condone any of his behavior but still continues to offer a warm and welcoming environment. Even when he went off on her in the spring on a rant when she questioned his behavior and he didn't talk to her for a few months, she still continues to offer a warm environment. I see a counselor regularly and obviously this is one of the big items that continues to come up. My counselor has said there is nothing I can do to change her behavior despite making my feelings known to her, so just try to make it known that I am not happy about it and don't want to be made aware of their time together.

Sometimes this all doesn't seem real. It is so incredibly messed up. This situation also causes a great deal of stress between my boyfriend and I. He thinks my family is nuts. He is furious with my mom and has to bite his tongue anytime he is around her. As it is, he has let a couple of comments slip. So I try to avoid having them in the same place together.

Anyways, just a bit of a rant. It's one thing that this man has made my life hell at times. At least I can reduce my interaction with him by now only communicating via email. But to have him supported by my own mother really hits hard at times. Our daughter is only 8 so this isn't going to go away anytime soon. It just amazes me after all that he has done, how much he still can get away with. I really do think that part of it also is my mom's incessant need to try to control the situation. No matter how many times I've tried to explain things to her though, she hasn't changed her take on it. Before he secured an apartment a year ago, she was even contemplating offering for him to stay at her place for a period of time until my brother talked some sense into her. And god only knows how much money she has given him over the past couple of years. This situation really tugs on my sanity strings at times...

[ForeverDad]

This may not be the best or even right answer but when the dilemmas get bogged down with all the assorted concerns, I can default to... Do what you have to do.

[GaGrl]

It's okay to rant -- we all need it once in a while. And it does then leave room for looking forward.

Your situation is frustrating. I found it frustrating when my ex fell behind on child support (and he wasn't a pwBPD). Once, my ex changed jobs without looking into the medical insurance/cost of COBRA situation, and I had to delay my son's minor surgery until open enrollment on my insurance, at considerable more cost.

It is good that you are communicating with your ex via email only -- that takes away some pressure.

Are you considering filing now for Child Support Reinforcement?

One thing that occurs to me is that some of the tools on this site could be helpful for communicating with your mom -- particularly SET statements. The Truth element could help her see the consequences of her actions with your ex.

[StillHopeful73]

Thank you, ForeverDad and GaGrl. I'm considering filing but at the same time, feel as if it might be useless since he is now working under the table. I will do whatever I need to do, but as I often feel when dealing with him, it isn't always crystal clear to me what I need to do, if that makes sense.

Does our daughter deserve the backpay of the child support he owes. Absolutely. Is it worth filing and no doubt causing conflict only to not be able to force him to pay anything anyways since he now works under the table? I'm not so sure. If he is somehow forced to pay but then is kicked out of his apartment because he can't handle his finances, then that will mean he is unstable and homeless again. Shouldn't be my problem, but then I worry about how it will affect our daughter, as it no doubt will. Sorry, I am spinning in circles here.

Dealing with this type of person, it feels like you have to be constantly "on" and sometimes I just don't feel like I have the energy. Yes, the email only communication is a godsend. As mentioned, he has been much better lately though and occasionally he has been trying to send texts, I think to maybe see if I will give in (and I haven't).

Like I said, you can't leave your guard down for a minute as one wrong move and you're back to square one. I know it's got to be done (and part of my reality) but it sure feels draining, at times.

It's been some time since I've read through the tools but I'll have a look again. I will try the SET statements and try the Truth element to see if it helps her see the consequences of her actions. I'm not holding my breath as I have tried to approach things a number of different ways (which most have led to arguments) but it is always worth a try.

[livednlearned]

I found the book Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents to be helpful. My parents do not have a PD so it isn't that level of dysfunction. However, both parents are limited emotionally and both are rigid about what my role in the family should be (to my detriment).

From the book:

"Emotionally immature parents fear genuine emotion and pull back from emotional closeness. They use coping mechanisms that resist reality rather than dealing with it. They don't welcome self-reflection, so they rarely accept blame or apologize. Their immaturity makes them inconsistent and emotionally unreliable, and they're blind to their children's needs once their own agenda comes into play. When parents are emotionally immature, their children's emotional needs will almost always lose out to the parents' own survival instincts."

The book then goes on to describe four different types of emotionally immature parents, and then insight into how you may have adapted to the type of parent you have, and how to communicate with them going forward.

Also, I'm curious if you have a sibling by any chance?

[GaGrl]

On a purely practical point, why not refer to your ex as "self-employed" when you file for CS enforcement, rather than "working under the table"? That way, he gets to explain how much he is working, what he makes, and what his income tax filing situation is (he should be filing Schedule C).

[AnuDay]

I have a very similar situation.  Except I am a male that pays child support.  My BPDex gets the red carpet treatment at my grandfather's house.  He gives her money, babysits my children when she has them, takes them all out to eat at restaurants.  He's always telling me how great of a person my BPDex is.  I don't know if any of this is true in your case, but from your story and mine I think a little bit of it is sexually motivated.  Maybe not the actual physical act, but I think there is some physical attraction going on whether it be one way or mutual.  Even if it's just from your mom to your ex, BPDs will manipulate that situation for their own benefit.  I know my familial relationship is certainly strained.  No matter how bad the act is that my BPDex does, whenever I show my grandfather the hard core evidence he blows it off and continues to be "buddy buddy" with my BPDex.  My grandfather also may have Narcissistic Personality Disorder.  Our FOO's can be pretty weird. 

[StillHopeful73]

Thank you everyone for your replies. Yes, I do have a sibling. He is very much like my mom (and me) in that he doesn't like conflict. He has been pretty good at being the "objective" family member and has told my mom that offering my uBPD ex a place to stay (or money) just isn't appropriate. But he and I differ in opinion in other areas even though he agrees that my ex lies, is immature and his actions aren't acceptable at times.

He doesn't think my mom being so supportive of my uBPD ex would ever come back to haunt me should we go back to court though. My feeling is that if my own mother is offering a supportive and welcoming home/meals to this man, that a court/judge is going to think that he mustn't be such a bad person/parent then. But maybe I'm wrong. Anyways, I find my brother to be more of a voice of reason than my mom, but he and I still disagree on some things regarding my ex. He hasn't really gotten involved too much except when the situation has been quite heated between my mom and I.

I was under the assumption from reading different articles on collecting backpay/support through FRO that it is much more difficult for them to collect anything when there is no employer to go through. They can take away his driver's license but when my ex and I had the discussion about FRO a number of months ago, he said "If my license is taken away then I won't be able to work and you won't get anything." Someone had mentioned prior if he's not working long enough he'll eventually get sick of it and will be forced to pay. But I'm not so sure. He really enjoys not working or working on his terms. It feels like any excuse to not work, especially if he can tell people that it is because of me, would make him happy.

I will check out that book, especially for ways to communicate better since what I'm doing clearly isn't working. I really do feel after further reflection that it is about her wanting to be in control of things. Sure, her offering support to him is hurtful to me but her concern for her granddaughter's well-being outweighs any hurt that this causes me. She has made a number of comments such as "At least I know where she is when they have dinner at my place and I don't have to worry about them sitting in some coffee shop." or "This way I know that she is getting a warm meal." or "I can try to talk to him about working in a non-combative way when he's here." She has a point in the sense that I want our daughter to be comfortable when she is with him and eating healthy, but that shouldn't be on the her (or me) to be watching over. He's an adult and her father, and he should be the one making sure that happens. Enabling him isn't ever going to get him to do these things on his own.

AnuDay, your situation sounds very frustrating. Having my parent talk about how great my ex is would drive me insane knowing how my ex really is. My mom does help out my ex by watching his dog and has taken him and our daughter out to eat, and offers meals often, but she at least is verbal to me about how he is immature and not paying child support isn't fair to me. Though my dad has dementia and isn't in a good state of mind, my mom is with him a great deal at the care center so I don't think there is anything of physical nature between my ex and her. But I do think she feels she can "save" him or that "killing him with kindness" will make him a better person and Dad.

[zachira]

I can understand how perplexed and hurt you must be when you see your family supporting your uBPD Ex. There are always going to be people that just don't get it  and/or want to stay on the good side of another person. Having many family members with BPD and NPD, sometimes when I am feeling invalidated by most of the family and their friends, I start to observe the family members and friends that quietly get it, yet do not want to say anything. Can you tell us about the people in your life that you think get it to the point that you feel somewhat validated? I say somewhat validated as nobody really sees anything exactly the way we do.

[StillHopeful73]

Thank you, zachira. Well, as I mentioned my brother kind of gets it, yet also does things that I don't understand. He has had my uBPD ex and our daughter over to his place to play with her cousins a couple of times. He agreed to an offer (arranged through my mother) for my uBPD ex to do some work in their backyard in exchange for giving him a couch they didn't want anymore. They gave him a crate for his new puppy that they don't use anymore.

If there wasn't past verbal/physical abuse towards me, child support issues (excuses) and recent behavioral issues (towards me) with my uBPD ex then I wouldn't have such a problem with this. I strongly believe in helping people out who need it. If my ex had just fallen on hard times then I wouldn't have a problem with this. But my ex is where he is because of his behavior and because he's awful with money. He was making likely around $70K when he was having all of these problems with money/child support. And I don't feel that my family should be the ones showing him support and kindness when he continues to act unacceptably towards me. To me their kindness towards him condones and enables his behavior.

He has many uncles/aunts/cousins that are relatively close by that he can reach out to. He is likely avoiding them because he owes a few of them quite a bit of money. And I think one of his uncles had booted him out of his place when he was homeless because he was taking advantage of it. So why is my family the one who has to be there for him when he has his own family he can go to.

My boyfriend is basically the only one who has my back and I do feel validated by his support. But unfortunately, he is kind of at the other end of the extreme. He hates my uBPD ex with a passion and thinks that someone needs to beat the crap out of him to get the message across. He is beyond angry that my family supports my ex and thinks they are all out to lunch. He has said numerous times if this (the assault) happened in his family that he and his brothers would have made sure that the message got across, and that the individual wouldn't be in good shape (if even walking) after. And it boils his blood that my ex has been assertive through texts/emails in the past year and my family continues to be nice. The only reason he hasn't beat up my ex by now is that he doesn't want my daughter to be affected by it in any way. And I keep telling him that it wouldn't solve anything with the type of person my uBPD ex is.

And that's not the answer either. Violence never is. So I often just don't tell my boyfriend things that have happened with my ex to keep him from getting upset. Aside from my counselor, I really don't have anyone that I can go to about this. When my uBPD ex assaulted me 7 years ago, I lost a couple of my closest friends. Long story short my best friend got all weird with things and though she was initially supportive, she turned really hurtful for some reason. My other closest friend said she didn't want to get involved so I didn't really have anyone around after that. And though I have plenty of acquaintances I haven't made an effort to get close to anyone since. This isn't the kind of stuff that new friends really want to hear. So I have my counselor and basically this site as the voices of reason. This site has been a godsend during some of my worst times with my ex.

[Turkish]

SH73,

What your boyfriend said is how a lot of families might deal with that.  As hurtful as it was, and even more hurtful that your family didn't stand up for you and continues to be kind... well, as long as you are safe in the present.

I get Christian kindness, yet, 1 Timothy 5: 8 If anyone does not provide for his own, and especially his own household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

It would likely bear no fruit to "proof text" your mother. She has her own motivations specific to her. 

[worriedStepmom]

My mom is a lot like yours.

My grandfather was physically abusive, and my dad was verbally and occasionally physically abusive.  So my mom has been conditioned for much of her life not to rock the boat - to basically bend over backwards to keep the men happy and accept the bad behavior because it could be so much worse. 

She is the queen of catastrophizing when it comes to her grandchildren.  Thank goodness for therapists 

I had to set strong boundaries with her.  When we're dealing with SD's mom, my mom can give her opinion once, but after that I cut her off.  "I appreciate how much you care about us mom, but you don't understand the legal intricacies.  We're not going to discuss this anymore."  (My T said I have to start with the acknowledgement that mom is coming from a place of love.)

Most of her catastrophizing is aimed at my sister and nephew (who live with her).  My sister's ex, like yours, always seems to be broke or out of work and will ask for $5 to feed their son for the overnight visit.  (Our state jails those who are far enough behind in child support, and he's been locked up twice now.)  I helped my sister figure out how to set stronger boundaries with mom, and I back her up as need be (they triangulate me into arguments frequently).     My sister finally decided to hold her ex accountable, and she was prepared to go to court to change the custody schedule if he truly couldn't afford to feed his kid or was homeless.  It's not being mean, it was letting him accept the consequences of his actions.

My mom isn't going to change.  Yours probably won't either. The only thing that can change is your response to it.  It's okay to have strong boundaries - either not to listen to her talk about your ex, or even not to see her if she's spending that much time with him.  It's also okay for you to set stronger boundaries with him, even if that means he sees your child less often.

[StillHopeful73]

Thank you, worriedStepmom. I can relate to much of what you are saying and your experience. I do think part of my mom's response about things has to do with her experience early in life, also. She has made comments before how if a woman isn't intimate with her partner then he would be expected to stray. And when she learned that my ex assaulted me the first words out of her mouth (no joke) were "The fight started about a girl?". Way back when she also didn't feel that I should pursue the assault charge against my ex since he wouldn't be able to work and provide for his daughter with a criminal record. So I do feel she has a very old school outlook on things sometimes. Lol and yes, thank goodness for therapists (and this site).

Boundaries so far haven't worked so well with her so I'm going to have to look at changing my approach. I have explained to her repeatedly my reasons for not feeling my ex should be so heavily involved with our family, as well as my concerns about her enabling him. On the advice of my therapist I told her that since she was going to continue to do these things anyways, to not talk about his and her interactions with me. She always forgets then tells me about how my ex and daughter were over to make cookies, or they went for dinner etc. But like you say, she isn't going to change.

Boundaries are hugely important when it comes to my uBPD ex and I've done an OK job of implementing them lately when it comes to him. Not to say I don't find it really challenging at times (or that I haven't made mistakes), but I think I've done a pretty good job. We now only communicate via email (no more phone and text). He drops our daughter off in our driveway so doesn't come into our home anymore. But I've really struggled with boundaries and figuring out the best course of action when it comes to the financial side of things.

Of course, I think he should be held accountable for providing financially. Our daughter deserves that. But how do you force someone like him to see that they should be accountable. You can go through FRO and they will either garnish wages or take away his driver's license. But then he won't work. Or like recently, he's working under the table. Or he may just refuse to work altogether and go back to being homeless. And that would be on him, but the stress of it would be on me again and more importantly, on our daughter who I'm trying to protect. So I feel at times like my hands are tied and I am sure he knows this. But then I kind of feel like I'm enabling by not pursuing things. It is one area that I have really struggled with.

Anyways, he has made it known that things are really tight right now and has even foregone his Christmas morning with our daughter as he says he won't have much to give her this year and would prefer she wake up at my place. He has started working for an insurance company and says it will take time to get established. So do I continue to wait (as it will always be something) or do I pursue things in the New Year. It feels like I'm always trying to give him a chance to get back on his feet and if I wait too long our daughter will be grown up .

[worriedStepmom]

Why have boundaries not worked so well with your mom so far?

What consequences have you applied when she tells you about things you don't want to hear about (her interactions with your ex)?

[Turkish]

If your mom really was "old school" she'd shame him for not providing for his family.  There's a Bible verse for that... and he'd "man up." Even if he's skirting support, what parent gives up their kid at Christmas? Buy some toys at Goodwill or The Salvation Army. Or garage sales. Or just be a loving parent which is what children really desire and need.  

That all being said, there's the underlying psychology of a person with BPD, which is a desire to be loved, while at the same time feeling that they are unworthy of love; in other words, shame.

He may likely feel ashamed that he can't provide the Christmas that he's envisioned in his mind, and his coping mechanism may be removing the trigger,  who is unfortunately his daughter.  That's the real shame.  

As for your mother,   JADE isn't gaining you ground, no matter how much I or anyone here agrees with you,  so it might be better to be short. Maybe not "talk to the hand!" short, but just, "mom, I understand your need to engage with him, and you're doing what you feel is right, but I'm focusing upon me and my daughter right now, and your relationship is not my business." Or something similar.  

[StillHopeful73]

Thank you Turkish and worriedStepmom for your replies.

Boundaries with my mom haven't worked so far with her a few times I've tried to implement them. When my uBPD ex was being pretty verbally assertive towards me and my mom was still inviting him over, I told her that her actions were really hurtful to me and that she should be clearing it with me first. She would agree with me that his actions/words were unacceptable then have him over for a big home-cooked meal on his weekend or nights with our daughter. And she would say her intention was to tell him that his actions were unacceptable when she could get him alone but of course, it never happened. I gave up on her "clearing it with me" when it came to having him over because she would "forget" and do it anyways. 

So then I just told my mom a number of times that I didn't want to hear about their time together. That it appears that she and I just agree to disagree so if she is going to do what she is doing as far as providing meals, taking them out to dinner, lending a supportive ear, ENABLING etc. that I have asked her to keep it to herself because it upsets me. But she will then often forget and tell me about when he comes over and what a great time our daughter had. Most of the time I'll just internalize it and cut the conversation short. She does have an awful lot on her plate in dealing with my Dad's dementia so I try not to add to her stress. But I have to admit it feels pretty rotten to have my own mother be so kind towards someone who has been so disrespectful (and abusive) towards me. It's not healthy but I don't feel like I'll ever just get over it.

I think it's a pretty clear indicator that although my mom loves me and has done a lot for me over my life (and I appreciate all that she has done), she clearly doesn't respect me. Because I really don't think she is this way with other people. She has crossed the line with my brother a couple of times, but once he has put his foot down, it didn't happen again (as far I'm aware anyways, maybe I'm just perceiving it wrong since I'm sensitive about it all).

The fact is though aside from telling her that she is risking her and my relationship, I haven't told her there are consequences so perhaps that is part of the problem. I guess I could tell her when she brings it up that I don't want to talk about it, but I'm not usually so blunt. Turkish, I agree with you with how I should say it to her. That is perhaps a better way of dealing with it than cutting the conversation short or internalizing it.

My daughter threw me a curve ball yesterday and I'm still pretty upset about it. We were sitting at the dinner table and she mentioned that her dad had "borrowed" money from her piggy bank but had never paid her back. She didn't seem upset about it and said it all rather matter of factly. My older daughter dropped her fork and with her jaw wide open said "Isn't that illegal? Shouldn't something be done about this?" It could be that he did pay her back and my daughter forgot but I'm trying to figure out how to handle it. She said it was coins and not bills but it doesn't matter. It still is like a rock sitting in my stomach. I know he has had problems with money for a long time now but that is so wrong. Just really really sad.

Turkish, it is exactly that. He wants to be liked/loved so much and yet does feel unworthy, hence his pattern of poor behavior. And I do think he feels ashamed as he'd like to give his daughter the world but can't. But you're right, he could buy gifts from the Salvation Army or garage sales. I think he'd rather just wallow in self-pity. And remove the trigger, like you say.

[worriedStepmom]

Boundaries are about you, and what you do and will tolerate.  They aren't about your mom.

Instead of "don't tell me X", a good boundary is "If you tell me about X, I will ask you to stop.  If you continue to talk about it, I will leave the room."  Your mom can do whatever she wants, but you have control over how you react to it.  The idea is that if you walk away or end the conversation multiple times, your mom will learn that she has to stop.

It's like toddlers - we can tell them over and over and over not to do something and they will ignore us ... until we put them in time-out or take away their toys, etc.

[GaGrl]

If you already have told your mother that you don't want to hear about her interactions with your ex, then I think you can/should be blunt when she brings it up.

"Mom, I've asked that you not discuss visits from Ex with me. Please change the topic. "

Sometimes the consequence consequence of overstepping a boundary is simply to get called out on it.

But here's the thing...if she thinks she is "helping" you and your daughter, then she is getting some satisfaction by telling you. And if you have to tell her you aren't going to discuss it, you remove at least part of her motivation for having him over to her housr. After a few corrections, she may be less inclined to host him.

[kells76]

My daughter threw me a curve ball yesterday and I'm still pretty upset about it. We were sitting at the dinner table and she mentioned that her dad had "borrowed" money from her piggy bank but had never paid her back. She didn't seem upset about it and said it all rather matter of factly. My older daughter dropped her fork and with her jaw wide open said "Isn't that illegal? Shouldn't something be done about this?" It could be that he did pay her back and my daughter forgot but I'm trying to figure out how to handle it. She said it was coins and not bills but it doesn't matter.

Not to take your thread too far off topic, but we've experienced this, too.

This may reflect both a lack of boundaries ("what's yours is mine") and a role-reversal/parentified child situation, where "Mommy needs gas money, so empty out your piggy bank or we can't go".

I still find myself surprised at the matter-of-fact way kids will talk about the abnormal stuff going on. Recently both kiddos have outgrown their hiking boots. SD13 said she thought she'd give her old ones to Mom. SD13 had also been out of pants at our place (where they go is a mystery...), so we picked up some thrift store ones. She commented that it was great that Mom could wear them too. I'd also thrifted an oversized hoodie for SD11 a year or two ago; guess who I saw wearing it at a pickup.

We also hear pretty often about how Mom or Stepdad owes one of them money. The closest I've gotten to dealing with that (beyond comments like "Oh?" or "Huh" is to say "Sounds like something to work out with Stepdad").

I'm trying to figure out how to handle it.

I have a two pronged approach. One is accepting that whatever clothes/shoes we get for the kids, Mom will end up wearing. That is just the reality we have. I'm not sure if there's a way to broach with them how weird and not normal that is -- "Mommy likes your clothes and is going to wear them".

The other is to try to not give them cash. I may have mentioned this before here, but we do checkbook registers for their allowances/extra chore money. It's sort of an extra hassle, but it keeps cash from going right back to Mom.

I wonder if gift cards could work for your D? Our SD11 especially LOVED Starbucks cards. Wouldn't solve the whole issue, I know.

Anyway, I suspect it would be tough for your D to tell Dad at her age "No, please don't take my money". Let me keep thinking on this one as others chime in.

[kells76]

Ah -- validation.

Could be a good doorway for some validating questions, like "How was it for you when that happened?"

You can support D in however she's feeling about the situation, and learn about her perspective on it.

I think you have a little time to figure out a really good long-term approach on this one. I would consider yourself "forewarned" that your D's dad is going to be like that for the foreseeable future, so you have a leg up, in a way. She's 7 now, right? You've got this helpful info (Dad is not going to respect D's $) and you can assume he won't change. This is good to know now, so you can build a plan of radical acceptance/creative problemsolving around her $ for the next ~11 years.

[StillHopeful73]

True enough, worriedStepmom. Like a child also, if I'm not consistent with expressing my discontent with my mom talking about my ex then I suppose she is getting mixed messages. I expect such behavior from my uBPD ex which is why I try to be consistent with him like I would be with a child. But it is disappointing to me that I have to be that way with my mom, also. But if it will get the desired result then I guess I have to suck it up and put my big girl pants on.

Thanks GaGirl. I do need to be more blunt but I also do feel she thinks she is helping our daughter (and me). So if I don't give her the opportunity to talk about it, then maybe she will be less inclined to have him over. I know that he reaches out to her quite often though and she doesn't like conflict or making people feel badly, so I highly doubt she will turn him down anytime soon.

As for the piggybank issue, kells76, thank you for the tips. Luckily, she doesn't have much money in her piggy bank but I won't be putting any more money in there knowing that she might give it to her Dad. And I think the gift card thing is a good idea. I know it is what it is, but it makes me really sad (and unbelievably angry) that she should have to deal with any of this stuff at her age. The gist I got from her was that he asked if he could "borrow" the money from her piggy bank but then never paid her back. I don't even know if this was a recent thing or when he first started having money issues.

And you're right, about the validating. I've been really good at validating her comments about not wanting to go with her Dad the past 1/2 year since first meeting with the play therapist. But in this instance, I was so ticked off that I let it get to me in the moment so wasn't thinking about much else. I think I made some comment like maybe he forgot, also perhaps hoping that was the case. But yes, I'll have to put a long term plan together knowing that he is capable of this.

Part of me wants to confront him about this and ask what happened and why he hasn't paid her back. I already know he won't tell me the truth (or will lie and say he did pay her back) but if he knows that other people know, maybe he will be less likely to do it again.

[livednlearned]

Boundaries can be very very painful. We don't talk about that enough here.

Sometimes having boundaries with other people can hurt us, though ultimately the hurt is less than what it feels like to have no boundaries.

Your mom is controlling the relationship (successfully). The price for getting her way is listening to you complain about her. Apparently it isn't enough to change how she behaves.

When there are people in our lives who don't respect our boundaries, we have to make hard choices. Hopefully the temporary correction doesn't generate too much stress, but I don't know many examples of setting new boundaries that don't have at least some cost.

Your mom is not likely to change unless you demonstrate in actions how painful this is for you. That probably means showing her that you're willing to sacrifice something precious in order to address the deep pain her disrespect causes.

Knowing your mom, what do you think it would take for her to respect your wishes? She would likely have to lose something precious in order to change her behavior. You would have to have the strength to follow through so that she recognizes how serious you are.

Boundaries are hard. 

Setting them does get easier with practice. Your dignity grows and that brings additional strength to build on.

[StillHopeful73]

Thank you, livednlearned. Yes, boundaries are hard! I think I do much better with them than I did but I still struggle, and sometimes I feel like I always will. And I still question myself more than I should with my uBPD ex, when it comes to the boundaries that I do set with him. It's easier to enforce them when he's being verbally assertive or going through an "attacking" phase. But when he's nice and talking about his struggles or how hard life is, I find it more challenging. Even though I realize on a conscious level that he is just being manipulative.

I really don't know what it would take to have my mom respect my wishes. This may sound awful but as much as my mom loves me even if I told her that I was severing all ties with her her, I think she would continue to do what she does. She thinks what she is doing is the right thing and it makes her feel better. As it is our relationship is very strained and I told her this was going to happen. Because of the resentment that I have towards her, I avoid talking to her unless I have to. And it's sad because she really does do a lot for both my brother and my families. I'm very appreciative for all that she does but refuse to give in on this. My bf bites his tongue constantly when around my mom and avoids family events because being around her really stresses him out. I know one of these days he's going to lose it and go off on her, and my brother. He thinks my brother is my Mom but in men's clothes .

My uBPD ex has gone to visit my Dad a few times in the care centre where he lives for his dementia/Parkinson's. My ex was never close to my Dad, even when we were together years ago so I'm not sure what his motivation is. My mom has no problem with this whatsoever and maybe he is doing it to be "nice" but it makes me very uncomfortable. My Dad has declined quite a bit over the past couple of years with his dementia so he may not even realize at times who my uBPD ex is. But the Dad I remember wouldn't have wanted this man who beat up his daughter or has caused such turmoil within our family (and in his granddaughter's life) to be coming to visit with him. When my Dad was a bit better mind-wise, I feel like he didn't voice his opinion much when he was living at home because he realized how dependent he was on my Mom with his dementia. And I obviously don't blame him at all. But if my Dad was of sound mind, I don't think he would have ever let this get to where it all is.

I don't want to deprive my kids of time with their grandmother because that is a very special part of growing up, and she won't be around forever. She makes the time she has with all her grandchildren very special. I try to keep all of the conflict between her and I behind closed doors so that they aren't affected. And I don't even disclose all that happens with her to my bf because I know it just will further infuriate him. So it is just all rather messy. Thank god for my therapist .

So I'll try to take the tips that have been offered so far with being more blunt and following through on my actions (ie. I've asked you not to speak about him, so if you don't stop I'll have to let you go etc). And I'll think further about what she could lose that she considers precious that might motivate her to handle this all differently. I'm also going to get myself a self-help book or two about dealing with conflict and asserting myself more. I've read a few already but figure one day maybe one will click in more than the others have. Clearly this isn't one of my strong points .