It's been 10 years since I last posted.

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

So 10 years ago I came on here briefly to get some support. That's not what I'm posting about today, but for context... back then, my sister in law, a BP resulting from childhood trauma, was living with us for a couple months. Her condition has since deteriorated but we have set boundaries that limit the stress she can cause us.

It's taken me a long time to admit but I'm something like 90% sure my wife is a BP too.

I've been listening to Stop Walking on Eggshells on my morning commutes and it's made me cry with how accurate it is about my feelings and motivations over the last 15 years of dating and then marriage. I missed it for so long because I couldn't admit to myself that both of my two ever romantic relationships were with disordered people. After the first one I swore that I'd only love a stable person from here on. And there's been so much good here that I can't imagine that a borderline person would be capable of.

In the beginning I couldn't believe someone could love me as much as she did. 15 years on, I can't believe someone can hate me as much as she does.

We just had two enormous fights about the D&D group I run two times a month and a friend who wanted to get together soon. She says I only take care of my needs and never take care of hers. That I will "bend over backwards for my friends" but can't answer a text from her when the kids are driving her crazy. I shot back with "you just don't want me to have any friends" which was sh*tty and bad and made me the bad guy in the fight.

She apologized in a text when I left for work. And I know what'll happen - if I do anything but apologize and accept 100% of the blame, or bring up the fight again, or mention how hurt I am, she'll say I'm trying to make her into an evil person for bringing up fights. That I'm too sensitive. That I take everything too seriously and overstate the seriousness of our fights. That raising two children is stressful and that's the only reason we fight. That I focus too much on the negative in everything. That something is seriously messed up with me.

I've spent 11 years actively trying to get a handle on my own issues. I've definitely got ADHD, that's a childhood diagnosis, but I've also seen counselors and gotten medicated for ADHD, GAD, MDD, OCD and so on. I've been labeled "treatment-resistant" by professionals. Maybe this just me bargaining with myself that if I just fix myself with meds and therapy, then I won't ever piss her off, and our marriage will be stable again.

She's going to see a psychiatrist next tuesday to try and get on something, with no real diagnosis in mind (she's asked me to diagnose her!) because she worries about controlling her emotions around them. I'm trying to be supportive and not overly dictatorial but my inside is screaming please god yes get help, I need to be in a supportive relationship.

We have two kids, ages 3 and 5. I think I'd rather stay the focus of her emotional intensity and keep the pressure off them. My parents' marriage failed when I was an adult.

But at the same time I constantly wonder, if I found a supportive spouse and a healthy relationship, how many of my problems would disappear? Would it make me a better father? Would my kids have a better shot at growing up healthy and not f***ed up in the head? Would it teach them that they deserve the best in a romantic partner?

Hard questions and I'm not ready to answer them yet. I'm just struggling with where to go from here.

I'm also not really convinced that this isn't just yet another rabbit hole for me to emerge empty-handed from. I've chased my own issues for so long that I feel like a "mental health hypochondriac" and maybe I really do just need to "chill out":

• Aha! It's ADHD! Just treat the ADHD and everything will be fine!
• Aha! It's depression! Just treat the depression and everything will be fine!
• Aha! It's anxiety! Just treat the anxiety and everything will be fine!
• Aha! It's sleep apnea! Just treat the sleep apnea and everything will be fine!
• Aha! It's OCD! Just treat the OCD and everything will be fine!
• Aha! It's panic disorder! Just treat the panic disorder and everything will be fine!
• Aha! It's ...

The 90% has dropped to like 40% in the course of writing this post. I mean... can you blame me for thinking this is just another "Aha!" I'm chasing? Chill the f*** out and get some more Vitamin D? Go back to couples counseling and it'll work itself out?

Anyway. I'm back and I'm pretty sure the only thing I know for sure is I don't know what the hell to do now.

[silentbob0727]

So 10 years ago I came on here briefly to get some support. That's not what I'm posting about today, but for context... back then, my sister in law, a BP resulting from childhood trauma, was living with us for a couple months. Her condition has since deteriorated but we have set boundaries that limit the stress she can cause us.

It's taken me a long time to admit but I'm something like 90% sure my wife is a BP too.

I've been listening to Stop Walking on Eggshells on my morning commutes and it's made me cry with how accurate it is about my feelings and motivations over the last 15 years of dating and then marriage. I missed it for so long because I couldn't admit to myself that both of my two ever romantic relationships were with disordered people. After the first one I swore that I'd only love a stable person from here on. And there's been so much good here that I can't imagine that a borderline person would be capable of.

In the beginning I couldn't believe someone could love me as much as she did. 15 years on, I can't believe someone can hate me as much as she does.

We just had two enormous fights about the D&D group I run two times a month and a friend who wanted to get together soon. She says I only take care of my needs and never take care of hers. That I will "bend over backwards for my friends" but can't answer a text from her when the kids are driving her crazy. I shot back with "you just don't want me to have any friends" which was sh*tty and bad and made me the bad guy in the fight.

She apologized in a text when I left for work. And I know what'll happen - if I do anything but apologize and accept 100% of the blame, or bring up the fight again, or mention how hurt I am, she'll say I'm trying to make her into an evil person for bringing up fights. That I'm too sensitive. That I take everything too seriously and overstate the seriousness of our fights. That raising two children is stressful and that's the only reason we fight. That I focus too much on the negative in everything. That something is seriously messed up with me.

I've spent 11 years actively trying to get a handle on my own issues. I've definitely got ADHD, that's a childhood diagnosis, but I've also seen counselors and gotten medicated for ADHD, GAD, MDD, OCD and so on. I've been labeled "treatment-resistant" by professionals. Maybe this just me bargaining with myself that if I just fix myself with meds and therapy, then I won't ever piss her off, and our marriage will be stable again.

She's going to see a psychiatrist next tuesday to try and get on something, with no real diagnosis in mind (she's asked me to diagnose her!) because she worries about controlling her emotions around them. I'm trying to be supportive and not overly dictatorial but my inside is screaming please god yes get help, I need to be in a supportive relationship.

We have two kids, ages 3 and 5. I think I'd rather stay the focus of her emotional intensity and keep the pressure off them. My parents' marriage failed when I was an adult.

But at the same time I constantly wonder, if I found a supportive spouse and a healthy relationship, how many of my problems would disappear? Would it make me a better father? Would my kids have a better shot at growing up healthy and not f***ed up in the head? Would it teach them that they deserve the best in a romantic partner?

Hard questions and I'm not ready to answer them yet. I'm just struggling with where to go from here.

I'm also not really convinced that this isn't just yet another rabbit hole for me to emerge empty-handed from. I've chased my own issues for so long that I feel like a "mental health hypochondriac" and maybe I really do just need to "chill out":

• Aha! It's ADHD! Just treat the ADHD and everything will be fine!
• Aha! It's depression! Just treat the depression and everything will be fine!
• Aha! It's anxiety! Just treat the anxiety and everything will be fine!
• Aha! It's sleep apnea! Just treat the sleep apnea and everything will be fine!
• Aha! It's OCD! Just treat the OCD and everything will be fine!
• Aha! It's panic disorder! Just treat the panic disorder and everything will be fine!
• Aha! It's ...

The 90% has dropped to like 40% in the course of writing this post. I mean... can you blame me for thinking this is just another "Aha!" I'm chasing? Chill the f*** out and get some more Vitamin D? Go back to couples counseling and it'll work itself out?

Anyway. I'm back and I'm pretty sure the only thing I know for sure is I don't know what the hell to do now.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi Silentbob-

Welcome back to our, YOUR community.  I’m very glad you’re here.  Why not stay awhile?

I’m deeply sorry for what you’re going through, and I understand it.  I do.  And so do most of the other members here.

You know, there is a school of thought that those of us who are constantly searching to uncover “WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?”  -  well, we’re kind of the *healthier* ones (emotionally, mentally, I mean).  PwBPD generally don’t ask “am I crazy?”

And those therapists who deem you “treatment resistant”?  Have you (or the therapists) considered that it’s difficult if not nearly impossible to heal from wounds that are inflicted over and over?  Without some real CHANGE?  By this I mean how do you recover or heal from GAD or MDD if the underlying reasons are perhaps your marriage dynamics?  I get this.  I had both of these diagnoses.  I no longer have those diagnoses.  And I am still in my relationship.

My friend, there are amazing tools here to help you better manage communication with your W.  And you’re likely correct... she may very well have BPD traits or behaviors.  You cannot “fix” her; but you CAN do things that can improve your relationship.  And pretty quickly.

My suggestion is that you start with learning NOT to JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain).  It seems this form of communication moves those with BPD traits to spin out rather quickly.  And... eliminating JADE will help in ALL relationships.  You’ll find this in the Tools, Workshops sections. (Sorry, I don’t know how to link.)

The second thing I’d work on is VALIDATION.  You’re looking to Validate the feelings behind her words, not necessarily what she’s saying.  And use care NOT to validate the INvalid.  Takes a bit of practice, but it does wonders.  My BPDbf actually imitates (or something?) and now actually validates ME.  It’s uncanny.

We learn to operate in a state of “mindfulness”... where we respond, rather than react.  You tell your W you’re working on yourself, you need to think before you respond.

And I’d recommend you give yourself some space and time to journal (even if it’s here).  A locked iPad, someplace at work, but somewhere private.  Keep it safe.  Your thoughts are your own.

Please continue to share.  Your voice is valuable here.  No need for silence.  And breathe, my friend.  Breathe...

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Cat Familiar]

there's been so much good here that I can't imagine that a borderline person would be capable of.

There's a range with pwBPD. Some are so extreme that they tend to destroy their relationships early on, or make it unbearably difficult for their partners. Others have "traits" and can be rather well adjusted most of the time in their work and home lives.

She says I only take care of my needs and never take care of hers. That I will "bend over backwards for my friends" but can't answer a text from her when the kids are driving her crazy. I shot back with "you just don't want me to have any friends" which was sh*tty and bad and made me the bad guy in the fight.

Black and white thinking (always, never, only, any) triggers everyone. Steer clear of it if you don't want to fight.

She apologized in a text when I left for work. And I know what'll happen - if I do anything but apologize and accept 100% of the blame, or bring up the fight again, or mention how hurt I am, she'll say I'm trying to make her into an evil person for bringing up fights. That I'm too sensitive. That I take everything too seriously and overstate the seriousness of our fights. That raising two children is stressful and that's the only reason we fight. That I focus too much on the negative in everything. That something is seriously messed up with me.

That's something...most pwBPDs would never think of apologizing, even if it's not entirely sincere. Why would you bring up the fight again? Why would you mention how hurt you are? That is kindling for starting a fire again. And since pwBPD generally want to play the victim, you mentioning your hurt feelings will likely trigger her. PwBPD typically have a hard time with empathy--they're so focused upon their own feelings that they can't really understand nor can they deeply care about yours. So don't even bother. I know that sounds harsh, but if you want to have your feelings heard and be understood, talk to a therapist or a good friend who is a great listener.

Maybe this just me bargaining with myself that if I just fix myself with meds and therapy, then I won't ever piss her off, and our marriage will be stable again.

That's a big ask of anyone--to never piss off their partner, and it's unreasonable. Of course others will get annoyed with us, but we can minimize the damage by not JADEing as Gems mentioned.

But at the same time I constantly wonder, if I found a supportive spouse and a healthy relationship, how many of my problems would disappear? Would it make me a better father? Would my kids have a better shot at growing up healthy and not f***ed up in the head? Would it teach them that they deserve the best in a romantic partner?

How about trying to make the best of the relationship you are currently in, rather than imagining what ifs?

[silentbob0727]

Black and white thinking (always, never, only, any) triggers everyone. Steer clear of it if you don't want to fight.

Yes, it was a rather awful misstep. My goal was to protect boundaries at all costs and I spontaneously threw out good communication when I started losing control of the conversation.

How do I take responsibility for these missteps without feeling guilt? Without taking the responsibility of the entire relationship on my shoulders?

That's something...most pwBPDs would never think of apologizing, even if it's not entirely sincere. Why would you bring up the fight again? Why would you mention how hurt you are? That is kindling for starting a fire again. And since pwBPD generally want to play the victim, you mentioning your hurt feelings will likely trigger her. PwBPD typically have a hard time with empathy--they're so focused upon their own feelings that they can't really understand nor can they deeply care about yours. So don't even bother. I know that sounds harsh, but if you want to have your feelings heard and be understood, talk to a therapist or a good friend who is a great listener.

If I may pose a question or thirty, and please do not take this as defensive because, really, I agree with the concepts but I'm trying to iterate and flesh out the specifics here. How can one possibly achieve intimacy in a romantic relationship if one guards one's feelings all the time? How can I receive the intimacy and support I need from a third party without feeling shame and guilt? Is this not the textbook definition of an emotional affair? Further, with pwBPD (and my pwBPD in particular!) being so perceptive ("psychic") of feelings, how do you propose I actually guard them?

That's a big ask of anyone--to never piss off their partner, and it's unreasonable. Of course others will get annoyed with us, but we can minimize the damage by not JADEing as Gems mentioned.

Maybe my introspection didn't come through in the original post.

Of course it's unreasonable. But I've been doing the "if I fix me, then things will be all right" thing for so long that I believe it anyway. I know I believe it. I know it's ridiculous to believe. And I know that when I fix something in me, she responds by ratcheting up the need for fixing. So I respond by ratcheting up the fixing, by seeking therapy for ever more debilitating disorders (I'm in OCD treatment right now) and ever more precise psychiatric medications (I just splurged on gene-drug testing). Of course this can't continue.

How about trying to make the best of the relationship you are currently in, rather than imagining what ifs?

Well... let me rephrase. My needs aren't being met. Projective identification in me manifests as a desire to self-improve and be perfect, which has now become an obsession (see above re: OCD treatment). We are modeling poor interpersonal skills for our children when we shout at each other in front of them. She does yell at the kids when I'm at work, particularly our 3 year old who is so strong-willed.

Is it better to GTFO in this situation or continue trying to improve it? That's not a question I want you to answer - it's just the one nagging at me.

[Cat Familiar]

Yes, it was a rather awful misstep. My goal was to protect boundaries at all costs and I spontaneously threw out good communication when I started losing control of the conversation.

It happens. Don't beat yourself up about it. Just move on.

Because I'm more of a "thinker" than a "feeler," I often make missteps in my relationship with my husband. Nowadays we get past them easily because I no longer JADE, or at least I usually catch myself when I start. Previously I felt compelled to explain what I meant, thereby digging the hole deeper.

How do I take responsibility for these missteps without feeling guilt? Without taking the responsibility of the entire relationship on my shoulders?

See the above. Everybody makes mistakes. It's gonna happen. Just let it go and move on. If you catch yourself in the moment, you can say, "Oops, that wasn't helpful" and move on. It sounds like you've got a habit of beating yourself up. Extend the grace to yourself that you want to extend to your wife.

How can one possibly achieve intimacy in a romantic relationship if one guards one's feelings all the time? How can I receive the intimacy and support I need from a third party without feeling shame and guilt? Is this not the textbook definition of an emotional affair? Further, with pwBPD (and my pwBPD in particular!) being so perceptive ("psychic") of feelings, how do you propose I actually guard them?

You pose some really good questions. As you've undoubtedly experienced, pwBPD often "love bomb" us at the beginning of the relationship. We then expect that this wonderful affirmation will continue and are sadly disappointed when it doesn't. Taking a step back, this behavior (or the opposite of it) is a function of the polarity thinking of BPD, where they either place us on a pedestal or they disparage us. Add in their lack of a solid self concept, the self-loathing they often feel, and when you look at the total picture, it's more understandable that though they desire intimacy, they retreat from it, because they don't have the functional skills to maintain a close attachment with a partner.

You ask about guarding one's feelings all the time. Certainly that's not sustainable in a healthy relationship, though it may be temporarily a strategic step in repairing a damaged relationship with a pwBPD. Perhaps instead of "guarding" you might think "mindful."

I know some of my girlfriends are amazed that I'm getting along so well with my husband now. They heard my complaints when things were really rocky between us and probably assumed we were on the path to getting a divorce. I have to take a lot of responsibility for my part in our relationship difficulties. I was previously married to an extreme BPD husband (violence, infidelity, drug use, financial irresponsibility), so when I started noticing some BPD behavior in my current marriage, I was despondent. I confronted, I blamed, I shamed, I argued--all the worst possible strategies for dealing with someone with shaky self esteem. I made things worse.

It wasn't until I found this site and discovered that I needed to learn how to "speak BPD" which in my case was largely to quit JADEing, that things started getting better. And as they improved, I tried to be extremely mindful of not imposing my feelings upon him. It was difficult, but over time our relationship improved. Now I can be a lot more candid about my thoughts and feelings, but I'm always monitoring how he's responding and if it gets to be too much for him, I back off.

Though our relationship has greatly improved, it's not like those textbook intimate marriages that I've read about, yet never experienced. Frankly, I don't know of any of those types of marriages in real life--they seem as improbable as a unicorn. Everyone has baggage.

You ask about receiving intimacy and support from a third party without feeling shame and guilt. Simple--find a third party with whom you'd never have a sexual affair.

And yes, pwBPD can be very intuitive about our feelings. It's likely a self-protective skill they learned at a very early age. Sometimes they're right. Sometimes they're wrong. They seem to pick up on intensity of feelings, then make assumptions about content.

Of course it's unreasonable. But I've been doing the "if I fix me, then things will be all right" thing for so long that I believe it anyway.

I think it's wonderful that you're taking responsibility for your part of the relationship dysfunction and trying to make things better. But I think you're trying too hard and perhaps looking to fix things that don't need fixing. It's much simpler to stop trying to remodel your entire being, and instead, just do one thing that can have big results improving your relationship. Click on that link about JADEing in my previous post. If you can stop doing that, you'll see great results over time.

My needs aren't being met. Projective identification in me manifests as a desire to self-improve and be perfect, which has now become an obsession (see above re: OCD treatment). We are modeling poor interpersonal skills for our children when we shout at each other in front of them. She does yell at the kids when I'm at work, particularly our 3 year old who is so strong-willed.

Is it better to GTFO in this situation or continue trying to improve it? That's not a question I want you to answer - it's just the one nagging at me.

How about this as a plan: Try not JADEing for two months and notice how that affects your relationship. At that point, you can revisit the question about whether or not to stay in your relationship.

[HardTruth]

It sounds like your partner may do a lot of labeling. "You bend over backwards for your friends, but you don't for me", "you're too sensitive", etc.  What do these things mean?  They're just labels, interpretations put on actions or events. 

It seems like it could be helpful to ask her to tease out specific actions that she would like changed.  For example, "when I text you, I would like you to text me back within 10 minutes".  Now you have something to talk about..."Well, that's a great request, but if I'm in the middle of playing D & D, it's hard to hear my phone...or we have a policy that people put their phones aside..." or whatever.  Or, "I put my phone aside when we're having a family dinner; I don't answer texts from friends" ie maybe her "feeling" that you bend over backwards for your friends but not for her isn't accurate;  it's not supported by actual things that you're doing, it's a feeing that she has...because she is having feelings when she's stressed out.  Perhaps when she is feeling upset or stressed out with the kids, her unconscious thought is that it's all your fault...and she doesn't realize that that's where her thoughts are going.

Anyway, approaching it in this way means that, potentially, you can talk about the actual "thing" that she's upset about rather than arguing back and forth about whether you're "too sensitive" or not.  That's just a value that she's placing on you, and is an argument that may just go around in circles.  What is the result of that argument that she's hoping for?  That you'll "admit" that you're "too sensitive"?  Then she gets to say, Aha!  I knew it!  It's all your fault...because you're deficient somehow. That's the underlying message, right?  Labeling people keeps the attention on them being "bad" as the problem, and not looking at the actual problem, how to fix it, and how both parties could potentially could do something (take responsibility) to improve things.

Anyway, just one perspective.

[once removed]

i know what you mean regarding your issues, and feeling that if you could just fix this or that, you might reach a better place in your relationship. im kind of a personality perfectionist, regarding my own issues.

its not a bad thing to own our side of the dysfunction.

its also hard, when youre in it, to clearly see it. your partner has complaints, and on some level, theyre valid, whether the complaints are exaggerated, are something unique to her and your relationship, or are things that are right on the mark.

and our partners have the unique ability to exaggerate, or, even, in times of calm, to downplay their own complaints. it can be confusing, and exhausting. i know in one moment, i was someone who didnt listen, who made my partner feel unheard, who had to be right, and in another, i understood her better than anyone, i was so patient, and she really appreciated that.

you have to rely on that middle ground. intimate relationships are complicated. romantic partners see the best and worst of each other in ways that others dont. i didnt have anyone in my life that would agree i didnt listen or needed to be right...except other past romantic partners  .

to navigate a relationship with someone with BPD traits, you have to be in a place of emotional centeredness, knowledge, empathy, and be prepared to take your relationship skills to the next level. its a full time job in that, even with all of that, you will be challenged immensely.

if you are sticking it out, and committed to improve your relationship, and your side of the street, my suggestion would be to learn the tools on the Bettering board, and to post there about what youre learning. i learned them years after my relationship ended. not only was it eye opening, but i navigate relationships of all kinds far better than i ever did. they are relationship skills that work with everyone. you cant go wrong.

[silentbob0727]

I feel an obligation to reply and show I've taken everyone's replies seriously.

I have read them all. However, I am currently experiencing a mild but sustained panic attack. There's entirely too much to unpack here, and doing so probably wouldn't be cathartic for me. I see my therapist at 1; hopefully she can help.

Until then I'm just trying not to act out in front of my coworkers. But it looks like I'm slacking off.

[silentbob0727]

Seeing my therapist did quell my anxiety. But she has advised me not to continue on BPDFamily for the time being.

She gave several pretty valid reasons.

One is that, while she believes I'm correct about my codependency and very insightful ("You should go get a psych degree"), and that my wife is very probably disordered, she needs to get an official diagnosis before rushing to conclusions, and the fact that she is going to see a psychiatrist very soon means that there is hope and I need to be patient.

Another is that she knows I have a pattern of self-diagnosing and "pulling the thread" for too long, and that my act of seeking help from an online community is not only premature, but has a good chance of becoming an addiction in itself, exacerbating my problems, given what she knows about me.

In any case I have decided to follow the advice of my professional for now. That said, I think this JADE stuff is spot on and I will add it to my toolkit.

Thank you, and maybe I'll see you in another 10 years.

[silentbob0727]

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