Update: Telling the children about the divorce and who wanted it

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I also raised the question of telling the children forthwith because I am sick to death of the deceit in our home. She did not agree on telling them ASAP and agreed to see a counsellor together to discuss, and agreed to provide a list of potentials. The email I sent was pretty inflammatory... not rude or aggressive, just stating a lot of facts and a lot of examples. It addressed things like outright deceit in general with me and the children and how her it needed to STOP. With the amount of detail I gave in the email regarding times and chronology it would have been apparent to her that I journal. 

25th came and went, I did not proactively hand over my financials and waited on her to be proactive in a process she desires. I planned to email her in the next few days requesting formal handover of financials to mediator and meeting be delayed since we'd not exchanged as per agreement. Anyway, yesterday, I receive 2 emails, one was a valuation of our home dated 28th Oct, and the second was an email telling me that another firm were coming today to do a second valuation. I replied with the following:

Thanks for arranging this element of the financial process.

I'm not sure why but for whatever reason the date we agreed for exchanging financial info has been and gone on the 25th Oct. I had my financial info prepared as agreed on this date. To preserve the originally agreed schedule I suggest we reschedule the submission date and meeting with mediator to reflect this delay.

I am also concerned that we have not made progress with arranging the meeting with a counsellor to discuss telling the children. What is the status of this?

Morning all,

I talked to W this weekend about nailing down the meetings with T in the new year to discuss telling the kids about the D. She hasn't involved herself in the email exchange with the T so I wanted to double confirm that she was onboard before I booked an appointment with her. W seemed reluctant about the idea (after it being her suggestion to seek professional advice) believing the whole thing to be a bit pointless. She pulled on the "she's very expensive" lever, which might usually appeal to my frugal nature... that didn't work. She then pointed to it being a bit unnecessary as she'd had loads of conversations with the kids about us not being together and us not being a couple and by telling the kids soon we'd just be worrying them about something that isn't evening likely to happen for another 6m at least, "we've not even come to a financial agreement yet". I think this is the time for me to push her towards the cage door, and the T is the way to do it. She suggested seeking a T, so I'm just doing what she suggested. Talking to the T will put her in a position where she has to make a decision... So I will keep pushing there.

It would seem (if my W is to believed) that my children are not being told that the relationship that my W and I have is a model they should use as a reference to a good healthy relationship. Which is better than them believing this is what 'good' looks like.

Moving back to the religious angle. I am not the only religious influence on her... in fact I lack credibility from a Christian perspective for many reasons, not least because she has painted me so black she thinks I am the devil. However, I do have some visibility over some of the religious influences in her life and I can see how many of them point in the same direction. It could be things like the forgiveness course she runs in prison (she's done the same course 5 or 6 times now), I listen to the sermons she hears at one of the churches she goes to, I see the books she reads... I think someone mentioned the erosion caused by a drip on rock (in reference to the damage the relationship is doing to me), there's only so many times you can fight the same message, there's only so many times you can twist something to 'make' it make sense until it actually no longer makes any sense and you trip yourself up. God is working on her, I have to let God do his work. If I make a big noise and create huge confrontations, I distract from God's work, I distract from the little voices, the soft gentle hands that work on her. Her conscience knows, that much I am sure of, and my silence makes it deafening.

Asked randombibleverse.com...
Psalm 27:14 - Wait for the Lord; be strong, and let your heart take courage; wait for the Lord!

Saturday night was pretty good. Girls had a great time, we went to a place called Skygarden which is a garden on the top of building in London. We went for a meal and went to a giant toy shop in the heart of London. W took a few opportunities to try and make some digs at me but I skimmed over, moved on and let them float past not letting them spoil the day. The stress of the city's hectic nature tends to get to her.

Enabler

[Enabler]

I also raised the question of telling the children forthwith because I am sick to death of the deceit in our home. She did not agree on telling them ASAP and agreed to see a counsellor together to discuss, and agreed to provide a list of potentials. The email I sent was pretty inflammatory... not rude or aggressive, just stating a lot of facts and a lot of examples. It addressed things like outright deceit in general with me and the children and how her it needed to STOP. With the amount of detail I gave in the email regarding times and chronology it would have been apparent to her that I journal. 

25th came and went, I did not proactively hand over my financials and waited on her to be proactive in a process she desires. I planned to email her in the next few days requesting formal handover of financials to mediator and meeting be delayed since we'd not exchanged as per agreement. Anyway, yesterday, I receive 2 emails, one was a valuation of our home dated 28th Oct, and the second was an email telling me that another firm were coming today to do a second valuation. I replied with the following:

Thanks for arranging this element of the financial process.

I'm not sure why but for whatever reason the date we agreed for exchanging financial info has been and gone on the 25th Oct. I had my financial info prepared as agreed on this date. To preserve the originally agreed schedule I suggest we reschedule the submission date and meeting with mediator to reflect this delay.

I am also concerned that we have not made progress with arranging the meeting with a counsellor to discuss telling the children. What is the status of this?

Morning all,

I talked to W this weekend about nailing down the meetings with T in the new year to discuss telling the kids about the D. She hasn't involved herself in the email exchange with the T so I wanted to double confirm that she was onboard before I booked an appointment with her. W seemed reluctant about the idea (after it being her suggestion to seek professional advice) believing the whole thing to be a bit pointless. She pulled on the "she's very expensive" lever, which might usually appeal to my frugal nature... that didn't work. She then pointed to it being a bit unnecessary as she'd had loads of conversations with the kids about us not being together and us not being a couple and by telling the kids soon we'd just be worrying them about something that isn't evening likely to happen for another 6m at least, "we've not even come to a financial agreement yet". I think this is the time for me to push her towards the cage door, and the T is the way to do it. She suggested seeking a T, so I'm just doing what she suggested. Talking to the T will put her in a position where she has to make a decision... So I will keep pushing there.

It would seem (if my W is to believed) that my children are not being told that the relationship that my W and I have is a model they should use as a reference to a good healthy relationship. Which is better than them believing this is what 'good' looks like.

Moving back to the religious angle. I am not the only religious influence on her... in fact I lack credibility from a Christian perspective for many reasons, not least because she has painted me so black she thinks I am the devil. However, I do have some visibility over some of the religious influences in her life and I can see how many of them point in the same direction. It could be things like the forgiveness course she runs in prison (she's done the same course 5 or 6 times now), I listen to the sermons she hears at one of the churches she goes to, I see the books she reads... I think someone mentioned the erosion caused by a drip on rock (in reference to the damage the relationship is doing to me), there's only so many times you can fight the same message, there's only so many times you can twist something to 'make' it make sense until it actually no longer makes any sense and you trip yourself up. God is working on her, I have to let God do his work. If I make a big noise and create huge confrontations, I distract from God's work, I distract from the little voices, the soft gentle hands that work on her. Her conscience knows, that much I am sure of, and my silence makes it deafening.

Asked randombibleverse.com...
Psalm 27:14 - Wait for the Lord; be strong, and let your heart take courage; wait for the Lord!

Saturday night was pretty good. Girls had a great time, we went to a place called Skygarden which is a garden on the top of building in London. We went for a meal and went to a giant toy shop in the heart of London. W took a few opportunities to try and make some digs at me but I skimmed over, moved on and let them float past not letting them spoil the day. The stress of the city's hectic nature tends to get to her.

Enabler

[Harri]

November 06, 2019 I also raised the question of telling the children forthwith because I am sick to death of the deceit in our home. She did not agree on telling them ASAP and agreed to see a counsellor together to discuss

December 23, 2019 "...[she said] by telling the kids soon we'd just be worrying them about something that isn't evening likely to happen for another 6m at least, "we've not even come to a financial agreement yet".

Hi enabler.

I believe it has been said that the conventional wisdom to wait until the you are closer to the separation or divorce to announce to the kids. When announcing you want to be able to share specifics of where they will sleep, when they will be with each parent, where they will go to school, where the dogs will live, and how birthdays will be handled, etc.

[formflier]

I'm in agreement that the actual telling of the kids should be far off (after ALL agreements are done).  I also believe the meeting with the T should be soon.

Enabler I would go even if you wife doesn't and if your wife won't go, then I would consider stopping all further participation "divorce stuff"

You are right to force a decision soon, even if it's a private decision.

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

I believe it is right to keep momentum in doing divorce things given she says she wants a divorce, if not enabling a divorce (which I have chosen not to) I am enabling learning and discussion which should help us make the right decision regarding communicating divorce to the children. I also hope this T is able to address co-parenting issues and long standing issues with regards to parenting together, it might be a bit of a byproduct of the discussion but would be good to tell a professional and hear a professional discuss what goes on behind closed doors. I would also like a professional opinion On whether or not I am abusive.

The children’s friends know about us. As far as I was aware the friends know about the divorce, yet my W said yesterday that the friends only know that “we’re not together”. So in her mind there is no pressing need to inform the children about a divorce. I was specifically told that the friends knew about the divorce. Funny though, when my W was explaining this she said “well how could they know anything, it’s only recently that we knew we were getting divorced!” To which I said “we’ve been getting a divorce for over 2 years!”. I don’t know what to read into this or whether it’s just one of those time continuum things, but was I not getting a divorce before when she petitioned for a divorce and now I am? We’ve got a piece of paper (and have done for a year) saying we’re getting a divorce. That confused me a lot.

Enabler .

[Turkish]

Regarding my own moral failure, we never married.  That was on both of us. 

When she went out, she met Mr. Super Christian(tm). I read one of her journals where she thanked God for both me and her beau. She left it on top of the couch where she was then sleeping. I thought,  "crazy... both of them." The kids were 1 and 3.

Son had just turned 4 when she moved out, after months of me enabling her double life, she "phoning it in," so to speak, as a mother.  I knew that she wouldn't follow the wise course to wait 6 to 8 months or a year to introduce the beau into the lives of the kids. If I'm generous, it was maybe 2 months.  I knew, I didn't say anything.

Then she stated having problems with our son exhibiting anger towards her.  She finally called me, and I told her that maybe introducing her beau to the kids so early was the issue. Caught, she admitted that.  Previously, the kids didn't want to go with her when I dropped the kids off at her parents'. "We want to go with daddy!" Her mom was concerned. In Mexican culture, motherhood is a huge deal. 

A few years later, apropos of nothing, then S6 said, "mommy cheated on you." I replied, "why do you say that?" He replied, "because mommy kissed [beau] when she was still married to you." Leaving aside his misconception that we were legally married, he saw it from his eyes.  He told me that their after school program showed a video, and he put it together.

Instead of lying, I told him, "yes, she did, but whatever the case, we both still love you and your sister." He didn't ask for clarification. 

From sources online, and my PsychD therapist, the right thing to do is to be truthful with the kids if one parent leaves for an affair partner.  It makes sense: deal with it now, including blow-back, then everyone can move on. 

If my 4 year old figured it out, then your older kids will.   Hope the T is neutral and advocates disclosure. It can be done without details. I would not advocate this before a solid legal plan is filed, or without your wife's agreement, and better she tells them. 

As for the end of my story? What's the Bible verse that says "revenge is a dish best served cold?" No, that isn't in The Bible.  Galations 6:7 is though. 

[Enabler]

Thank you Turkish that’s certainly good for thought.

My Ds are smart cookies, even the youngest one. Any introduction of OM will be red flags to them, even if he starts appearing at their (potential) new home regularly. D11 is very objectionary and doesn’t like things or people coming round too often. It will not be long before she objects to his presence. 6m would feel like an eternity for her.

Hope you had a great Christmas

Enabler

[Turkish]

My T also said that it's none of the kids business with whom a parent decided to have a relationship.  But that's for their side to deal with... just as it was for my kids' .

[Skip]

Have you met with the specialist on this?

[Enabler]

Skip, you're a mindreader. I was mulling over whether to approach the board for advice this morning about this.

I have a 2 hr meeting this Thursday with the specialist.
Individual discussions to start
Both of us together for whatever of the 2 hours is remaining.

I'm churning over how to pitch:

Where I am at, what function I play... kids and relationship/divorce
How to pitch my perception of my W and what is relevant, but telling about the dynamic such that the T is looking in the right direction.
If time permits, what other aspects of the dynamic (other than just telling the kids (how and when) would be good to discuss.)

I have form in couples counselling not going well because W behaves exceptionally and my concerns come across as unreasonable.

Enabler 

[formflier]

I have form in couples counselling not going well because W behaves exceptionally and my concerns come across as unreasonable.

Can you give an example?

I think you should share your concerns, regardless of how your wife "presents". 

Let her share her concerns...regardless of how you "present".

Best,

FF

[Skip]

What have you two hired the therapist to do? What is the goal?  Is this a limited engagement (on or two sessions) or a commitment to staying to achieve the goal?

[Enabler]

In Sep2016 I requested an emergency T couples session to "sort things out" because the wheels were coming off and I have NO CLUE whatsoever what was going on other than I couldn't stop my W from having an intimate relationship with OM. I went into the session prepared to "sort things out", say what was happening and get to the bottom of things, lay things on the table so to say. Very ESTJ way. I had written out a list of what I thought were the things that were killing our relationship... I rubbed the therapist up the wrong way with my keenness to "sort things out" and any suggestion of reading out the list (Which I had shared and talked to with W before the meeting). W presented herself as meek, passive and scared (contradiction of who she is at home). She presented me as controlling and scary, T looked at the evidence she had in front of her which was, bloke walks into my session with list and "sorting it out" attitude, woman walks in looking scared, timid and says he's abusive and controlling. Mid way through the first session W (no pre-warning this is what she wanted) announces she wants a separation and for me to move out ASAP. I never regained the confidence of that T that I was anything other than scary, controlling and abusive even after 3m.  

I need to bring together previous experiences and understand what didn't work. Although I don't know whether it will just be a 2 hours once and done, I don't want to blow any chances of more sessions being effective in the first 5 minutes like I have done before. The T's I've met don't appreciate being 'told' what's in front of them, they don't appreciate people trying to be foot forward and taking control... but I also need to impart certain information that she will neither see or hear that things are different when the door shuts. I'm reluctant to call out BPD and would rather describe my experiences with specific knowledge that SHOUTS of BPD without saying BPD.

Enabler

[Enabler]

What have you two hired the therapist to do? What is the goal?  Is this a limited engagement (on or two sessions) or a commitment to staying to achieve the goal?

The goal is to discuss how/what/when to inform children. In her intro the T has left the door open to discuss other themes and concerns. At the moment only 1 session has been agreed.

Enabler

[Skip]

I rubbed the therapist up the wrong way with my keenness to "sort things out" and any suggestion of reading out the list (Which I had shared and talked to with W before the meeting). W presented herself as meek, passive and scared (contradiction of who she is at home). She presented me as controlling and scary, T looked at the evidence she had in front of her which was, bloke walks into my session with list and "sorting it out" attitude, woman walks in looking scared, timid and says he's abusive and controlling. Mid way through the first session W (no pre-warning this is what she wanted) announces she wants a separation and for me to move out ASAP. I never regained the confidence of that T that I was anything other than scary, controlling and abusive even after 3m.

This is the reason I asked the question. You got a bit of that reaction from members here, too.

Let me ask this. Let's say you start with the simplest of issues - that you and your wife are getting a divorce that will likely take 6-18 months and you currently cohabitate as a family but live separate lives (with you wife having a married relationship partner) - and ask for guidance on what is the best way for you all to make this transition from where you today to being divorced and healthy supported co-parents. Explain very briefly that there are many complications - betrayal wounds, resentments, feeling of injustice, faith issues, and that there has been character assassination in your community and church  - and you hoping for guidance to help you both:

find a healthy model for going forward through the divorce   find an mutually agreeable way to abandon the complications - let them go dormant (not solve them, but defuse them)

.

Could you buy into that? Stay focused? Let go of the cycle of conflict without needing to resolve who is right/wrong, fair/unfair?

Will you accept her conventional/practical recommendations? Even if they do not fit your ideals or value system?

Is it more likely possible that you will only follow her advice if it aligns with your faith based discernments.

[formflier]

Additionally, there seems to be a "model" or "point of view" that a therapist is "judging" a situation and that parties are there to "prove" their side.

Uggg...that doesn't seem very therapeutic.

Skip suggested "simplest" issue.  Perhaps raising "one issue" (vice a list to sort out).

Am I reading this right that this is "one and done" kind of thing?

Even with "one issue", I'm trying to imagine how this makes things better.  (not saying it can't happen)

Best,

FF

[Skip]

Perhaps raising "one issue" (vice a list to sort out).

If the therapist was willing to tackle one isolated decision (telling the children - topic of this thread), how will you feel if she mirrors what most psychology books suggest... wait till details are in place, don't disclose an "at fault" or "dissenting" parent.

Would you accept her advice?

[formflier]

If the therapist was willing to tackle one isolated decision (telling the children - topic of this thread), how will you feel if she mirrors what most psychology books suggest... wait till details are in place, don't disclose an "at fault" or "dissenting" parent.

Would you accept her advice?

I would make sure that you "have your full say" and that your wife does...and ask that the therapist respond to the concerns that each of your see (not the concerns that therapist wants to see).

I would say that if both parents can stay away from dissent, that is best and most likely what the therapist would recommend.

The nuance here is that Enablers wife is proposing (threatening) to present this as "no dissent" or "both parents agree", which is not Enabler's truth.

Enabler..if this is your concern (or close to it) make sure you ask for a response to your concern.  What is the psychologically healthy thing to do when one parent is publicly pushing an narrative that completely invalidates the other parents values (or however you want to describe that).

What EXACTLY does this therapist recommend Enabler should say

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

Thanks for your thoughtful responses.

At the moment this is a ‘once and done’ proposal. The background being that in Sep19 my W pushed forward the divorce process again, and as such I believed it was time to ‘get real about it’ and stop living a lie to the kids at the same time. I am sick and tired of the deceit and living in the shadows. The shadows is where my wife thrives and where she can manipulate both myself and the kids. Anyway, she says ‘no’ and then says “let’s see a professional about this, I’ll find someone”, she doesn’t find anyone. I pick the ball up and run with it and seek a professional, she pushes back saying it’s a waste of money and ‘we don’t need this, you must be mad to want to do this’, I push forward and arrange meeting.

I’m relatively open minded about the outcome of this meeting. It could stay focussed, it could widen out to more things. If it stays focussed to telling the kids, I see a difference between owning the decision to divorce and pinning dissent or fault. As things stands my W believes I am abusive therefore she would see me as at fault, she doesn’t even admit the existence of an affair. I understand that fault is almost universally accepted to be irrelevant when telling kids, it’s usually a story they don’t need to hear nor can fully grasp, but I don’t believe it’s unanimous that both parties should own the decision when actually it may not be a joint decision. I will abide by the professionals advice and hopefully she can come up with a solution that allows for both of us to be comfortable with what is happening.

One potential upshot of this discussion is it does tackle head on the issue of ‘who’s choice is it to divorce’. Currently my W does not own the choice to divorce. Like many things she has sought to jettison that choice to the ether saying “I didn’t have a choice”. It will be interesting to see what the T makes of that thought process. It would also be beneficial to shine a light on some of my behaviours that my wife believes are abusive to the kids. Some very key (and regularly replayed) scenarios which would be good to get a professional opinion on. I’m pretty confident they are not bad parenting but good parenting, but if they are not I’m more than happy to take advice as to how to change.

This meeting could be simple or it could lead to other things. I suspect if it doesn’t go my W’s way and she doesn’t feel like it’s validating what she believes she will sack it off ASAP,. Either way it’s a step forward to decisions and things happening. It also shows my W that I am not intimidated by divorce and looking to take control of the future.

Enabler

[Enabler]

Great first session. Therapist is VERY experienced and willing to help. Like many of you she identified that neither of us have actually grieved the death of the marriage and the living situation or lack of boundaries in the living situation perpetuates the fantasy / reality divide. She pointed out that there is a clear difference between coparenting and parenting under marital conditions. I made the point that we have never patented effectively together.

W clearly admitted to the T in the one OM one session that she is ‘in a relationship’ with OM. T felt no obligation to keep this a secret. The narrative has gone from nothing going on to ‘special friends’ to ‘having feelings for’ in as many weeks... is this something I didn’t know but I’m many respects it’s actually nice to hear the truth. She still claims he is just an effect of the marital breakdown rather than the cause.

I believe that I said enough to make a cookie trail towards BPD and highlight that what she sees on the mask of my wife may not be what others experience in reality. She agreed to help us weekly to work towards coparenting success but pointed out that that it’s far more effective when there is a divide. She said there were ways to create that divide  whilst sharing a home. She also suggested that we may discover that there is something more fundamentally pathological going on.

Anyway, we’re on a good path with a good leader and as of now W is onboard.

Enabler 

[formflier]

Did communicating status of the marriage to kids or anyone else come up?

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

That's great news, Enabler! She sounds like someone who is not going to be taken in by your wife's PR proclamations. I think that's very smart to create a "divide" and proceed thusly. Did she give you any ideas about how to begin the grieving process for your marriage?

[Enabler]

Nothing about the communication to the kids yet other than me stating that it was very important to me and that I was sick of all the deceit. I think she wants to build a relationship and a foundation working towards coparenting and a commitment from both of us before we get there.

She’s sending us some literature and we have a appointment booked next week.

I’ve been whining things through in my head whilst unable to sleep trying to remember things that were said. I also had a small discussion with my W before I went to bed. It started about something to do with her phone, it turned into more bout how she was suspicious that I’d put something on her phone to bug it. I told her exactly what I had done in the past re snooping and why. I have never “hacked” anything and just used the tools at my disposal to seek the truth. She kinda got that and admitted there had been a lot of deceit from her. We’ve been here before,,we’ll go here again. The truth or lack of it has been one of the things that has hindered me grieving, since I couldn’t marry the narrative with the truth (and still don’t) I can’t say for sure that she won’t ‘come to her senses’ and realise what she’s doing (I said as much to the T), I said that I move closer to closure and maybe I’m 95% there now, but there’s always hope whilst what comes out her mouth and what actually happens are two utterly separate things. Still even though her and OM talk about being together, yet he has no intention of leaving his wife... why would she even think that is acceptable?

Coparenting is going to be tough, parenting as a married couple has been almost impossible, that said, there should be plenty of examples to chew through as we work with the T. These examples also shine lights on her own issues to the T not just parenting challenges.

Onwards and upwards

[Skip]

Sounds like she might help you both break through in this...

[Enabler]

So, T sends through "Conditions for Successful Co-Parenting"... it reads like a giant banana skin for a pwBPD. It's a goo document but if one had adhered to this document we'd likely not be getting a divorce in the first place. It's reassuring to see that I have adopted many of the points already and the very fact that we will be discussing how we adhere to the document going forward with the T acting as an accountability partner is good.

[Cat Familiar]

Well, now you're off the hook as far as her agreement and compliance with the plan set out by the therapist. That's between her and the therapist to work out her cooperation.

[Enabler]

It’s certainly feels like steps towards positive triangulation of a well boundaried professional. Because of her background of dealing with emotionally sensitive people she’s very likely to know how far to push things to keep her in the program.

I had a very honest chat with my best friend on a night out on Friday. It’s been years since he opened up as to what he actually thinks, it was a good starting point and makes me feel much less isolated. I don’t need/want people to agree with me, and he didn’t on many things, but he did listen and did share. It’s the lack of sharing that promotes the feeling of isolation. When people don’t share their opinion, there’s a sense that they either don’t care or have contempt for your choices.

Enabler

[Cat Familiar]

It's great that you have a friend with whom you can be totally honest about what is going on in your relationship.

[Rev]

Anyway, we’re on a good path with a good leader and as of now W is onboard.

Enabler 

Hi Enabler

I know you have struggled to stay true to yourself through all of this. Grace seems to have found you in your courage.

I continue to pray for you.

Tough situation. But you are up to it.

Rev

[Enabler]

Thanks Rev,

I struggle with prayer, I feel ‘bad’ (for want of a better word) for praying for what I want rather than what is ‘right’. Your prayers a very much appreciated.

Enabler

[Harri]

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