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Author Topic: 14 year old daughter not wanting to worship with family Part 4  (Read 745 times)
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« on: January 12, 2020, 06:36:39 PM »

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=342254.30


  If not this, what kind of wiggle room can you allow her?

We are very permissive with hair, dress, friends over.  We've drawn the lines at piercing, she has ears but nothing else.

I'm not all at shocked at "pushing the boundaries" and I get it "that's their job".  

I'm the parent..what's my job?  Keep boundaries intact and help a child to develop in a healthy way (whatever the issue may be)

Best,

FF
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« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2020, 06:37:10 PM »

  How about you alternate weeks with both the old and new churches?

Which is what we are doing.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2020, 09:50:54 PM »

Which is what we are doing.

Best,

FF

Where did you say that?  In your original post you said it was a requirement to worship as a family.
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« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2020, 10:30:28 PM »

Where did you say that?  In your original post you said it was a requirement to worship as a family.

I'll have to look through and see.  

Correct we have always worshiped together, which is why she knew she would have to ask.

To clarify:  She said to me she had been thinking about this "for months" and yet wanted a "final decision" after one or two talks.  

The Bible (and many other sources) generally guide people by saying decisions made in haste are generally bad (especially when haste is not required).  Also admonitions to those in authority to "get the full story"...etc etc.

So... it seemed wise to temporarily split things.  Plus that would allow me to do some detective work and see what Sundays she really cared about and which she didn't.  (magically she was completely fine coming with us when "he" was out of town)

Anyway this "structure" exists until last week of January, when we'll have several dinners and such where we can have extended conversations.  

I'm not going to prejudge where that may or may not go from there.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2020, 10:33:56 PM »

Where did you say that?  In your original post you said it was a requirement to worship as a family.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=342222.0

over here

Excerpt
We had a "temporary agreement" worked out where she would go to "her" church one Sunday and "family" church on the next Sunday.  I let her pick the Sunday and...you guessed it, it matched up with when "he" was going to be there and when he was not going to be there. (hmmm)
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« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2020, 07:22:30 AM »

It sounds like you have worked out a compromise.

Rather than put your D in a defensive position by asking her to justify her wishes, you could ask her some open ended questions - not interrogate but just for interest .


“Hi honey - did you have a nice time at church ? What was the sermon about?”

Then , just let her tell you what she thought it was about - not for a right or wrong approach but just how it seemed to her.

If she says something like “it was good” then “what did you like about it ?”

She may or may not want to talk. Sometimes the answers are short “I don’t want to talk “ replies but don’t push it Just show her you are interested in her point of view -if she chooses to share it . Not for debate or dispute.
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« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2020, 07:38:50 AM »




“Hi honey - did you have a nice time at church ? What was the sermon about?”

Then , just let her tell you what she thought it was about - not for a right or wrong approach but just how it seemed to her.

I have said exactly that and used variations on this.

Since the compromise has started, she hasn't been able to recall one thing she has been taught. (I haven't consulted the calendar, but I would say 4-5 Sundays worth)  Nor able to recall even if the lesson was from the new or old testament.  Not once.

As opposed to when she worships with our family, she has been able to have thoughtful discussions about the lesson and a couple days later if you mention something in passing she will have a response that indicates she remembers and was paying attention.

Best,

FF

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« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2020, 08:12:00 AM »

Lol I can guess why .

She’s either not listening cause her mind is on that boy sitting next to her or...


She’s not there. She and boy have sneaked off into some empty classroom to have some time alone. Probably not for long as a parent would probably go after them.

If parents are there then it’s probably the first. Emotions are distracting to a teen.

Or—— she’s listening but doesn’t want to discuss it. She may fear the debate with you . She’s heard the discussions between you and your wife over the Bible . She wants to avoid this. Teens often give vague replies when they don’t want to talk .

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« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2020, 08:33:32 AM »


So, if I as a parent believed and expected my kids to have church be about church where they can get a Christian education, how would you guys suggest I go about that without having her "rebel".

Note:  This would be for hour or two a week and there are very few restrictions on her seeing the same people throughout the week.


Best,

FF
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« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2020, 09:09:28 AM »

What would the consequences of your D deciding... randomly, no reason given at all... that she was no longer willing to attend church, with you or anyone?

Do you think she would have this conversation with you if she could repeat the situation with you again? Obviously you're not a mindreader but what's your sniff test? I go back to the point I made before, at what point is the lesson learnt? In BPD world we often find that if we don't really really hold the boundary the next times episode is even worse, maybe because if our pwBPD get even the faintest whiff they've got what they wanted they will repeat. There's a scale which I think goes something like this...

Excerpt
I won  Bullet: important point (click to insert in post)  it was a draw  Bullet: important point (click to insert in post) I got away with not losing & being crushed  Bullet: important point (click to insert in post) I lost  Bullet: important point (click to insert in post) I got crushed.


My suspicion is that I got away with not losing & being crushed is the optimal point. You don't need to win, you're an adult. You likely knew this was a debate you were going to win after the first round. You can acknowledge she has choice about where she worships, whilst not needing to have the formal discussion of her reasoning. You don't have to crush her. The longer this goes on the more likely she is to be crushed. My sense is the bigger of the two issues is not the choice to worship elsewhere away from the family, but the decision to attempt to justify that with phoney biblical reasoning. I can't prevent you from believing in sun gods, but don't try and tell me the bible sanctifies it.

Genuine, meaningful spiritual belief will never come from FOG... and the F could come from "to make choices about faith I have to biblically justify them to FF".

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« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2020, 09:10:52 AM »

So, if I as a parent believed and expected my kids to have church be about church where they can get a Christian education, how would you guys suggest I go about that without having her "rebel".

Note:  This would be for hour or two a week and there are very few restrictions on her seeing the same people throughout the week.

I would propose that you can't... and you should radically accept that you can't.
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« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2020, 09:41:45 AM »

I would propose that you can't... and you should radically accept that you can't.

 I believe that I agree with you.

So, am I hearing you right that kids will "want" to do their own thing and "feel" as though they should and that as part of the maturing process in children they will sort out on their own how they deal with their wants and feelings that don't get supplied/satisfied by their authority figures?

That "rebellion" is a natural part of being a teenager and a parent should not alter their parenting style "to avoid rebellion"?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2020, 10:18:37 AM »

What would the consequences of your D deciding... randomly, no reason given at all... that she was no longer willing to attend church, with you or anyone?


I don't know.  Offhand, I would say that her world of privilege would start to shrink

The basic approach in my family is that you have responsibilities and privileges.  They are tied together.

At the most basic level, if you get your stuff done...you get to play.  If you don't...no fun.


You don't have to crush her. The longer this goes on the more likely she is to be crushed.

So..I'm interested in your thoughts about why more time equals better chances of getting crushed.

I would assume that more time gives more time for relaxed reviewing of scripture and discussions that might produce a different understanding.

My "best case" is that she comes to her own decision that perhaps the Bible doesn't quite say it the way she remembered or something like that.

Best,

FF


  
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« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2020, 10:51:38 AM »

I think you have to weigh the severity of the issue.  Obviously something like drinking at 14 is far more serious than going to a different church every other week.  I would let it go.  I would imagine that the boy situation could fizzle out at any point and she may decide on her own to come back to the new church. If you dictate this, however, I think she would rebel and then you've turned a relatively minor situation into something more serious.   She has followed your church/and religion her whole life.  The old church is one you used to attend.  She's not going to unlearn what she's been taught.

In the grand scheme of things, how important is this?
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« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2020, 10:57:35 AM »



In the grand scheme of things, how important is this?

Very.

I will have to give an answer one day as to how I stewarded her life (guided her to adulthood) and how I "presented" guided her to God. (knowing that she has free will).

FF at the pearly gates.

"Well God..I was afraid she would rebel so I allowed misuse of scripture to go unchallenged and thought it wise that she go to a church where she is unable to recall a message because or her hormones for a boy."

"That's what you would have wanted..right God?"



Best,

FF
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« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2020, 11:15:55 AM »

Excerpt
FF at the pearly gates.

"Well God..I was afraid she would rebel so I allowed misuse of scripture to go unchallenged and thought it wise that she go to a church where she is unable to recall a message because or her hormones for a boy."

"That's what you would have wanted..right God?"

FF, is this about your salvation and relationship with God or your daughters?

Is there a way to address both?  So far it seems like an either or based on what I have read.
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« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2020, 11:24:04 AM »

FF, is this about your salvation and relationship with God or your daughters?

Is there a way to address both?  So far it seems like an either or based on what I have read.

I can't imagine how to separate them.

My salvation is assured, I'm not questioning or bringing that into this discussion.

I was quite specific about the issue being "my stewardship of what God has entrusted me with"

Best,

FF
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« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2020, 11:28:14 AM »

Okay so I used the wrong word when I said salvation.  Mea culpa.   Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)

I still see this as being more about your needs and your relationship with god rather than your daughters.  How you answer to God.  What your responsibility is.

My thinking is that if you have laid a good foundation in the first 14 years she will make good decisions when given the room to do so (within reason).  Why not let her continue the every other week?

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« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2020, 11:37:42 AM »



I still see this as being more about your needs and your relationship with god rather than your daughters.  How you answer to God.  What your responsibility is.

In my reading of this I'm responsible (accountable) for myself AND for my daughter as long as she is in my household.

Based on my reading and understanding, I don't see those as separate issues or that one issue is more or less important than the other.



My thinking is that if you have laid a good foundation in the first 14 years she will make good decisions when given the room to do so (within reason).  Why not let her continue the every other week?

How do I evaluate if perhaps I've missed something, especially since there is perhaps evidence of misuse of scripture.

I suppose I could continue the every other week thing, but that would really be based on her persuasiveness...especially since there is evidence "it's not working". 

Why is it not a good idea to listen to her point of view on this?

There seems to be a great great great reluctance for me to have any sort of conversation, clarity or communication about her ideas.  Am I misinterpreting this?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2020, 12:06:23 PM »

Excerpt
There seems to be a great great great reluctance for me to have any sort of conversation, clarity or communication about her ideas.  Am I misinterpreting this?
Yes you are misinterpreting if that is what you are hearing from me.  It is not my goal to stop you from having a conversation.  I am concerned that you are going to push and challenge her to the point where she pushes back hard.   I haven't read anyone saying not to talk with her or let it drop entirely.  What I have heard is more concern about your style of discussion with a 14 year old girl who is having her first (I assume) crush with a boy who attends a church she went to all of her life and feels comfortable going to, but one that her family as a whole is no longer welcome at.  A 14 year old girl who is also hormonal on top of being a typical teen who may generally want to avoid all such conversations.   I am concerned that she may not see your purpose in all of this and may, instead, see it the way many of us here do.  I am more concerned about you getting through to her without pushing her away.

I am not seeing anyone saying stop.  I am seeing people say consider the direction of your talks.  I am saying to watch your style.  Based on what I have read here, you are fairly sure of the outcome and you seem to be convinced she is using scripture as a way to get her own way.  To me your way of addressing this reads like a set up.  I think it is going to be hard for you to not show that you are fairly sure you already know the outcome of the convo and I don't think it is something that is going to serve your goal well.   

I've been that 14 year old with a parent with strict religious ideas and who used her duty to raise me and accountability to God for how i turned out as a means to educate and 'guide' me.  So take what I say with a grain of salt... or maybe a few grains of salt.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

See ya.
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« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2020, 12:30:13 PM »



   To me your way of addressing this reads like a set up. 

So, how would you suggest it be addressed in a way that isn't a "set up"?

She has been given plenty of time to think it through how she is looking at it.  We have a series of conversations planned, so I don't have to issue any judgments (nor does she).  After I listen to her there will be plenty of time to point of some other scriptures or ways of looking at that...and leave her with those for a few days until I can listen to her again.

Then ask her (rather than tell her)how she balances the two different points of view (assuming she finds "tension" between two views).

Best,

FF

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« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2020, 12:31:02 PM »

FF, I’m sure you have the best intentions. You’ve had much experience in your military and civil service careers having authority over people in lessor positions. Your church designates that you are the authority in your family.

That said, I suspect this is the first child who has asserted independence from your spiritual authority at such an early age.

I want to echo Harri’s message. Something that you have no experience, nor understanding of (though I’m sure you want to be empathetic) is that of the mind of a young teenage girl.

Female members here are yelling from the rooftops that if you try to be domineering with your superior intellect and spiritual knowledge, you run the risk of alienating your daughter in a way that is not easily repaired. WIN THE BATTLE; LOSE THE WAR.

Many of us speak from experience, having been alienated from our own families by experiences of this sort.

Tread very carefully.
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« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2020, 03:56:35 PM »

Excerpt
I will have to give an answer one day as to how I stewarded her life (guided her to adulthood) and how I "presented" guided her to God. (knowing that she has free will).

You are not responsible for her relationship with God -- she is. Your part is to create an environment for that relationship to grow and develop and not to hinder or put obstacles in the way.

I have a nephew (n16) who was in a baptist church (one of my former churches), and he had a girlfriend who attended another church. He was permitted to alternate between the two churches and spending time with her  and her family at church.

As I've mentioned, my h's family is steeped in the baptist belief system that includes this idea that the husband/father is responsible for his wife's/children's relationship with God. Specifically, what they do or don't do. I describe it as spiritual co-dependency. FIL is of the mind that the husband/father is to "make" his wife/children do what he thinks is right and good and benefits him.

I also think that we should evaluate this kind of thing by the fruit that it bears. I can see the fruit of FIL's beliefs in BIL and H who both have a strained relationship with God and the church and with their own families. FIL and MIL have a lot of anxiety about the state of their children's marriages, families, and their relationship with God (or lack of) - because they feel responsible before God for these things. In a way, I can agree that they are; they have created an environment that pushed their children away from God and that taught them unhealthy relationship skills.

The other issue that I have is that I believe that as believers, we are to follow the way of Christ. The typical models of authority in the world are not the way that we are to be; we are not to "lord it over" others. Jesus' model is entering into the lives of others and gently caring and guiding rather than trying to control others.

If d14 were able to discuss what she heard and learned at church with the boy, would that be acceptable to you?
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« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2020, 07:06:33 PM »

You are not responsible for her relationship with God -- she is. Your part is to create an environment for that relationship to grow and develop and not to hinder or put obstacles in the way.

This is not a direct match to the topic above, but 1 Timothy 3 seems to suggest that FF is involved in her relationship with God:

4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, 5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church?
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« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2020, 11:47:29 PM »

Fian: Isn't 1Timothy 3 about deacons and overseers in the church?  Seems like a pretty big stretch to me and not applicable in terms of helping FF talk with his daughter in a way that will not push her away from him, or worse and more importantly (to me), God.

Quote from:  FF
[/size]So, how would you suggest it be addressed in a way that isn't a "set up"?
...

Then ask her (rather than tell her)how she balances the two different points of view (assuming she finds "tension" between two views).

I don't know how you can address this without it coming off as a set up.  You know her best and you know yourself best.  You know how your ENFJ style comes across and how this situation is coming across to most of the posters in this series of threads.  How can you modify your style and tone to suit your daughters needs (which is a huge part of parenting)?  To help her flourish as a female, as a teen and as a soon to be adult?

What if she doesn't find tension between the two views?  What if her saying "I feel God is telling me to do this" is what she truly believes even though she may not be able to pick a bible quote to suit?  How will you handle that? 

I was wondering earlier today where she came up with the whole "I feel Jesus is leading me to do this" (or whatever she actually said) and wonder if it is something she has heard before maybe at home or in church and thinks she needs to justify her desire to go to her familiar church with her familiar friends with a phrase she has heard from the adults in her life?  That it is not her misusing the bible to mislead or get her own way but rather her using a concept she has heard from others in authority?  Sort of a side question there but one I would want to understand better before determining if
Quote from:  FF
there is perhaps evidence of misuse of scripture.

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« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2020, 02:08:04 AM »

I was addressing the issue that FF was not responsible for his daughter's spiritual development.  The verse I quoted did speak about qualifications for elder/deacon, but if it applied to them then it seems like a general principle that can apply to any Christian father.
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« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2020, 06:46:37 AM »

At what age do you allow a child to form some autonomy with their relationship with God? In biblical times, a 14 year old would be an adult, and even married.

Is this rebellion or normal differentiation? She's her own person. She's going to form her own ideas about religion and God. It isn't all of a sudden, but it begins in adolescence and develops.

Sometimes teens can overshoot the mark when developing their own self concepts. They know they are not their parents but they don't know who they are yet. Sometimes they will overdo being "not their parents" by rejecting some parental ideas that they later would not reject. Sometimes they imitate their peers and then decide, this isn't for them. Eventually they learn who they are but this takes time, sometimes trial and error.

This isn't easy on parents. It's tough to realize your child isn't you, and may not feel the same way you do about things. It's a recurrent theme in stories- Romeo and Juliet, Fiddler on the Roof, seen over and over again, where children do things differently than their parents.

"Manage your household, have your children submit"... in Biblical times, a 14 year old is not a child. I don't know what your church considers to be an appropriate time for a child to transition to being responsible for their own relationship with God. In our times, a 14 year old isn't an adult, but they also aren't thinking like a 5 year old. They begin to have abstract thinking and strive for autonomy. It's an important process to becoming an adult.

While you are concerned about the ethics of the clergy in the church she attends, does that make it all bad? Is she hearing truly objectionable things in a sermon? Does anyone know all of the private lives of their clergy?

What is normal differentiation and what is rebellion? I can't answer that for you. In my own experience, I've leaned towards what is harmful and what isn't, what is normal and what is not. It's normal to have a crush and puppy love at 14. It's normal for kids her age to believe they need to be together in church. Maybe she's experiencing this as God telling her this. She's in the in between from magical thinking of childhood and abstract thinking. As to a sophisticated interpretation of the bible- she might not be there yet.

Potentially harmful to me would be: spending so much time with the boy that her grades drop. Joining a cult, drugs, alcohol, criminal activities. I know you feel responsible for her spiritual growth. Perhaps you see some potential harm in this church she wants to attend, but if it isn't harmful to her, then what is at stake here?
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« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2020, 07:06:39 AM »

Perhaps you see some potential harm in this church she wants to attend, but if it isn't harmful to her, then what is at stake here?

She was taught "to put others needs below hers" in Youth Group.  Said another way, she was taught her needs/wants are above others.  Again, she attributes this to what she was taught in this church.

Offhand she can't remember the verses or the lessons (and she is going to take time to find them).

We had conversations last time while heading out to work with horses.

We compared what she was taught "at her church" with the John 13 lesson the family heard together and have discussed a few times.  Where Jesus served and disciples arguing/advocating for special privilege were cast in a bad light (the standing at the right and left side of Jesus thing).

She was able to articulate that God is advocating for people to worry about serving others, rather than serving themselves.

She also see's tension between the two church teachings.

I mostly listened and asked some guiding questions.  I see wheels turning.

More later.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2020, 07:34:47 AM »

FF you have provided her with a great foundation. You have provided her with the skills she is now looking to put into practice, reasoning, questioning, discussion, listening, interpretation maybe even a spot of cynicism. At some point this foundation and these skills will make themselves apparent. I've had an on off relationship with Church but the skills and values my parents instilled in me as a child have fed through to my adult life.

I think you should make steps to let her off these car crash meetings. It's a lesson she's likely learnt (re bending scripture) and you don't need to 'win' or even show that she's made an error. You've done enough by marking her card, now it's you turn to show humility and show her how to step down and stop digging when she's in a hole.

It's great you're able to have these conversations, they will be far more educational and life enhancing than any lesson she might gain from taking you and your biblical knowledge to the brink.

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« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2020, 07:58:48 AM »

I was addressing the issue that FF was not responsible for his daughter's spiritual development.  The verse I quoted did speak about qualifications for elder/deacon, but if it applied to them then it seems like a general principle that can apply to any Christian father.

Pastors are held in high regard.  There are verses such as this one where they are supposed to have a well running household, not chaotic...basically a respectful family.

So for any Christian that wants a "well run family", following the example of how a pastor should run their home would seems wise.
 

For me I draw a firm boundary between my daughters salvation and her christian education.

The way I see it, I'm completely responsible (not an inch of wiggle room) for her christian education and I have 0% responsibility for her salvation (that's completely..100% the job of Jesus)

Many Christian families (IMO) end up all messed up because they try to "force" salvation or "make it a requirement" or use it as a measuring stick.  That's God's business, not mine.

The way it should work (and sometimes does in my family) is my wife is responsible to me for our children's Christian education and she is responsible to God for her relationship with me and "following" me.  If I give her direction and she follow it and it goes badly, it's my fault.  (yes yes she should refuse is I'm asking her to sin)

Anyway it's the captain of the ship mentality.  Even "if I'm asleep" and the ship runs aground, God will call me to account.  He will call my family to account for their "followership" (new FF word) or lack thereof.

OK..back to my daughter and my responsibilities.   I would hope that my example to her allows her to see my thankfulness for my salvation and for God providing me a family and that someday I'll be gone and will "hand off" (yeah..football metaphor) her from her earthly father to her heavenly one.

Back later...thanks so much for all the input, please keep it coming it really helps me examine and reflect on this issue.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2020, 02:56:24 PM »

Staff only This thread has reached its maximum length and is now locked. The conversation continues here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=342316.0
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