Helping them move out

[PeaceMom]

So DD19 ubpd is once again going thru horrible breakup w/latest BF. She does the exact same pattern every time. Threatens that shes pregnant, then starts the incessant social media, phone calling etc , then the SI threats, then going over to the house/apartment, then quickly finding another guy to try to make him jealous... all this happens in the span of hours, not days and she becomes frenetic. I’m now receiving frantic texts and calls from exBF. My H and I both let her know that the police are likely to be called on her and that we are sorry her emotions are running so high that she’s not using WiseMind. We texted her that she is an adult and we will not be texting with her thru this and suggested she call a crisis line. Then we blocked her.
Sad stuff as her last BF filed a protective order and she can’t go near his home, legally.

Basically, we need to have her move on from our home. This is who she is at her core. It’s part of her DNA. She works 50 hours a week (although if she goes to work unstable, she’ll be fired on spot) yet makes just over minimum wage so she can’t qualify for apartment. We can’t co-sign due to her risky lifestyle choices. At this point, we’d happily pay for her to rent in her OWN name. Any thoughts or experience in this area are greatly appreciated. UGH!

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[DoneMom]

My husband (my dd24) and I have done this now several times.  When my daughter was 19, we helped her move from my ex’s house where she lived though high school.  She moved into her boyfriend’s home for a time and then into our home and then into my elderly mother’s home.

Now at 24 - she has her own apartment but wants to continue dependence on us financially.  We put firm boundaries in place so she got herself a sugar daddy who is basically paying her expenses at this point.

It’s so hard and I can tell from your post that you’re feeling guilty, responsible and sad.  I understand your situation  completely.

Do only what you think will be good for your child AND for you.  Sometimes you have to take a break, even though it is so hard.  I understand your concerns and your sadness in this situation.

I wish you the best.  Please remember to take care of yourself in this situation - it’s very stressful and you need to understand that you can only control what you do, not what your BPD child does.  Big hugs to you...

DMom

[Done-er Stepdad]

Another post I could have written word for word. Some insights from my own mess:

-You are never in full possession of all the facts in these scenario's. Other men, drugs, bad behavior are likely going on out of your view. Unknown unknowns, as an old politician called them.

-Further financial assistance only breeds more demand for the same, never independence. You are merely kicking the can further down the road while she developes an even more swollen sense of entitlement. And a better sense of what buttons to push to extract cash from you.

It MAY be worth a pragmatic bite of the you know what sandwich to pay a rental deposit and first month's rent just to get her soul-destroying self out of your house. Still problematic; see above.

If you do so, you need a firm and committed plan to prevent her from dying on your door step again up the road. Because the overwhelming likelihood is that she will not even attempt to pay the 2nd month's rent or any rent thereafter.

-BPD sufferers are ultimate survivors. They can step up and support themselves when the absolutely have to, even if only by nefarious and morally dubious means.

I read a fair few pages here; nobody's kid -for all their very real mental problems- ever seems to end up living in a shelter or under a bridge.

[Done-er Stepdad]

...Also, why must she have her own apartment? When I was young, I shifted through many low cost room mate situations. Craig's List abounds with options. Why does that never even occur to these kids? People in the army sleep on cots in tents and survive quite well.

She needs a room and access to a bathroom. That is certainly attainable, even at minimum wage. If people can swim the Rio Grande River, with no English skills, and go on to pay rent pretty much immediately, so can your kid.

[PeaceMom]

Thanks for the feedback. I see what is best for me -having her not live here, is likely NOT best for her. So, our bests interests collide. If she wasn’t working 50 hours a week, paying for car, food, phone and all other expenses except rent, I think it would be easier for me to usher her out.

I see her mental illness as a disability (like cancer or a severe intellectual disability) where I would continue to offer my home, possibly for life. Deep down I believe that if she makes any steps in the right direction toward a somewhat stable independent existence, (like finally not being fired from her jobs! This is huge progress)  I can tolerate her every other month 100% craziness and her daily/weekly rage/shame/frustration outbursts.

But then in the midst of the crazy time, my brain tells me “Warning, danger-get this person far far away”.

Done-er, your point about their resourcefulness seems correct and provides me with some reassurance.

Marsha Linehan always talks about continuing to love these pwBPD. Unconditional love is virtually impossible when you feel like a victim to someone else’s lifestyle choices that bring you fear.

[FaithHopeLove]

Marsha Linehan always talks about continuing to love these pwBPD. Unconditional love is virtually impossible when you feel like a victim to someone else’s lifestyle choices that bring you fear.

What situation would foster the most love? Her living with you or her living apart?

[PeaceMom]

Self love -move out. Loving her- let her stay.

 My ultimate goal is of course having her gone and managing on her own with me cheering her on from a distance. I’m in no way enmeshed with her for my joy and happiness. I’ve mentioned I’m an embittered, unwilling coDependent. Enmeshment and “needing” her are not my challenges.

I have a very full life with family, hobbies, interests and friends. She does not add to this, she takes away from these life gifts. As I’ve said before, I truly believe if she was getting by out in the world and we had no relationship, I could send  love, prayers and hope her way everyday in my mind, but would not shame or guilt her for not being there for me. She’s a mentally ill daughter, I don’t expect emotional support from her at this time in her life.

[Done-er Stepdad]

My hard BPD journey led me to the conclusion that unconditional love is only for the dying and for infants.

Anyone else, some reasonable, self-preservation-based "conditions" are going to have to apply.

Or they can have some abstract, idealized version of unconditional love that does not kill me dead -from afar.

[wavewatcher]

I so wish there was a concrete answer to the "live with us/live on your own" dilemma. My 25ddBPD/BP1 has been living with her father and I since her hospitalization in late December. Still no job, spends most days in bed. She recently binged on Xanax again (somehow she got her P to rx it), drank, became suicidal (didn't attempt), raged and is now filled with paralyzing shame and regret, because she lost her boyfriend over it. She has agreed to go back on Lithium, which was helping her from our perspective. She gave us the rest of her Xanax. I can go down the "maybe there's hope because she's on meds again and wants to do better" road but I have been down it so many times I no longer believe it will last.

It seems like no matter what we do as parents our adult children are going to follow their own mentally ill, BPD instincts. We can shower them with love and support, boundaries, withhold financial assistance, kick them out or pay for them to live elsewhere but none of it seems to matter in the long run. They do what they do.

I'm tired of living in a house that reeks of mental illness, physically and emotionally. I want her to be in her own place, but she has no job and cannot seem to hold one. She cannot live with others. SSDI is minimal in our state if you can get it. We struggle with all the things everybody else here experiences. I thank the universe she doesn't want children.

I do my best at self-care, get my own therapy, and it helps. But, like all of you, I want a "normal" life again. "Normal" is being able to choose to pick up the phone or answer her texts. To talk to her only when I want to. "Normal" is coming home from work to peace and quiet. "Normal" is not having things thrown and broken. "Normal" is not worried that she will rage and I will get hurt and have to call the police again.  So for me, that means she has to move out. Somehow.

I do apologize for my depressing post. But, it is where I am at and I am so thankful to be able to speak freely to people who truly understand. You are my tribe.

[Done-er Stepdad]

Much hard-earned empathy to you, Wavewatcher.

It's like you are caught in an endless intractable game of chicken with a very demented driver. In my own unique circumstance, there has been a ton of bullying and bluffing in the mix.

We have stared it down and called it out. And life has gotten better from it. She has stiffed landlords, gotten boyfriends to pay her rent, and even gone so far as to get a job.

But we are no longer paying for anything. Despite many threats of varying kinds, she has not cut off contact (my dream!) or attempted suicide.

This is not a suggestion nor a brag, since we are all dealing with seriously crazy people with their own terrifying levels of BPD. Your own milage may definetly vary.

[PeaceMom]

Done-Er,
I appreciate your frankness and it’s refreshing to have a Stepdad here posting as your perspective is different because it seems most of us here are moms wearing our Mom Goggles. Many of us have said that we’d likely not be in any type of relationship w/our pW BPD if we weren’t related.

WW,
I’ve been wondering how you were holding up. Xanax withdrawal isn’t for sissies. It’s tough stuff. The fact that she got more from P is nuts to me. It is highly addictive and the protocol has totally changed on RX’s these days. (Sorry, that’s my rant!).
Now, about your post-I so appreciate how honest you are and I’m right there with you.

I’m having trouble radically accepting that no matter what we do or don’t do (as long as we don’t invalidate which pours gas on their always smoldering fire) their illness seems to have a life of its own. I identified when Done-er said it was “baked into the cake”. If this is what we see with our own eyes living with it 24/7, I wonder why the “pros” tell us that we have some type of power to change some things. What I’m seeing is that once we learn to communicate by not invalidating the emotion, or shaming them for the toxic behavior, my DD is still on the self destructive crazy train she just doesn’t include me as much in the blame game. I stepped out of her line of fire, but she’s still firing.

Maybe a hardcore DBT therapist with years of treating young adult PwBPDs could shed some light on best practices here.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Done-er Stepdad]

I say this with the deepest compassion I can pull out of myself:

Sometimes, hope is your enemy. It's another con that derails you over and over again.

When I stopped hoping, I started healing.

And the kid got about 22% better. Our various hopes for school etc. were a burden on her that did no good and just triggered her more. Again, your own milage may vary.

[PeaceMom]

We’ve debated this topic before here. For me it comes down to realistic expectations vs false hope. That’s part of the inherent confusion with BPD. What are they capable of when stable? When unstable? With support? Independent?

These things swirl around in my mind. One year ago, I would have said she can’t keep a job for over 2 months as she’d lost between 8-10 jobs since age 16. She’s now had one of her jobs for 1 full year. I would also have said she can’t drive without getting a speeding ticket. (She got pulled over at least 1x month for speeding) Now it’s been 4 months since her last speeding ticket and she drives 50 miles for work daily.

So in a few ways she has become more responsible and independent. She passed 5 college classes then last semester she made a D and an F. I told her I would pay for one more class this semester and if she doesn’t make a C or better, we won’t pay. The best part of it for me now is that I’m 100% out of the loop. I don’t ask ANY questions about her class, I never look at her stuff on the website. It’s blissful for me and I’m totally ok if she doesn’t pass.

[wavewatcher]

PeaceMom,
I am happy for you that your daughter is in a positive place right now and doing better. It's hard not to hold hope when it's like that.  And trying not to be the source of their triggers is also helpful to keep things from escalating. That in itself can be really hard for me; to not respond to her words and actions is difficult. But that is the fuel to her fire, and I know how that ends. I will say that DD is getting better at apologizing when she does meltdown, and they don't last as long, which is progress. 
Done-Er,
You are right; holding hope can be the enemy. I've learned that the lower my expectations are, the less I am disappointed. It sounds so cynical and sad, especially coming from her mom, but it is part of my self-care. I know another episode is just a trigger away, because that is who she's become. Maybe when she's done with withdrawals it will get better. But there is that hope again!  I guess it's too depressing not to have any... 

[Blind1]

Thank you for all the insights into this dilemma. My dd18 still says she's moving out, although she dropped out of high school, has no job and no money. I've been laying low for a little while from the big blow up in Jan where I had to call the police on her but at some point this needs to come to a head. Since I know she isn't going to move out, I need to set some boundaries and expectations for being able to live in my house. A big part of me wants her out though (which of course I feel guilty about). I'm just tired of dealing with all of this. I need there to be some order in the house for the sake of me, my husband and the other kids.

PeaceMom, like you, I struggle with the fact that she is mentally ill and if she had cancer or downs syndrome or anything where she needed help, I would be there. I even talked to my priest about it because as a mom, how much do we have to do? I still don't feel like I have an answer yet.

Done-er thank you so much for your perspective. My husband is her stepdad. He doesn't say a whole lot about her because he knows how much I love her and how much I'm struggling with this (she was just recently diagnosed). He can't help with her, she hates him, so he is just there picking me off the floor when I can't handle it anymore. I'm trying so hard to not discount his feelings/suggestions/concerns, but I'm not always good at it. I am seeing everything thru Mom glasses. He is being very supportive of me though. He is trying to keep me grounded and real me in when I go off the deep end with emotions. He is reading anything and everything I throw at him and is a good sounding board but I don't want to take advantage of him either. I'm sure he thinks and feels much like you do about it.

[Done-er Stepdad]

When you're the stepdad, it's like taxation without representation on steroids. You have at least 50% of the grief, and 0% of the say.

Ultimately -he said through gritted teeth and contemplating an early martini with a xanax chaser- that is how it must be. The parent must decide how to handle this mess. Your only choice is to stay or go.

If you stay, you're going to be unhappy a lot of the time. I def. get the Mom goggles references. When I recount the craziness to my childless friends, they go all Dr Phil on me. But I remind them that this stuff is driven by suffering at a level that a mere civilian can't really grasp. 'Not gonna wrap this up in 50 minutes of tough love with time to spare for Robin McGraw to shill some seriously spurious skincare products.

Given the complexity of BDP and the reality of a worn down, almost Stockholm victim spouse, my every negative reaction is magnified ten times by the kid and the spouse. I keep a lot of my PTSD and my famously witty aptitude for nasty humor to myself.

It helps that women like my wife and those who I see here are some of the most loving, emotionally evolved people on earth. It's a shame they keep throwing that deep wisdom down a well, but luckily, they seem to be able to make more of it at will.

[wavewatcher]

Oh Done-er, you are witty!

It's biological. Or if they're adopted at birth. I know if my dd25 were not my own flesh and blood or adopted at birth I would have probably estranged myself from her long before now.  At least I think that.

It's a well of hope that we keep throwing our wisdom down. And society's expectations of women and mothers. "Bear and forebear". I wish I had a nickel for every time my mother said those words to me and my sisters.  Meaning that no matter how bad the relationship is you "bear and forebear" and put your own needs last. She called them "the two bears" and she was a master at it.

Fortunately I can reject that expression when it comes to adult relationships. But with my own child it is much harder, because she was the sweetest baby and toddler. We were bonded. Yet over the last 20 years she has so severely tested that bond that if I only saw her a few times a year it would be o.k. I don't have any expectations any more, but I still do have a sliver of hope.

[PeaceMom]

WW,
My 4 kids are my Life’s Work. Even though I adopted DD at 16 mos. she was a helpless, sickly orphan. I might have instantly had more compassion and love for her than my healthy robust boys that I birthed. I just read a whole thread here regarding a written passage called “The Bridge”. Not sure how to post internal links here, but the crux of it is letting go before you are drowned with them. One astute mom said she thinks of herself as being very healthy and grounded so she is willing and able to act as  belayer or rope holder to her DD the rock climber. Her DD is making some progress climbing so this mom can healthily provide the safety harness without jeopardizing her own health and safety. It was a fascinating read! I highly recommend it.

[DoneMom]

I too have that “sliver of hope” but it hurts so much sometimes.  I completely understand your pain and wish it were easier for us parents.  If this was any other type of relationship (romantic, husband/wife/sibling/mother/father, etc), I would just end it and run away - because it’s that difficult. And I mean absolutely no disrespect to those dealing with those relationships.  As a parent, I feel responsibility and guilt, even though I know that I’ve done the very best I could possibly do for my daughter.

I just want her to get better but I know that hope is gonna be my enemy most of the time.  I am extremely thankful for my husband (the done-er guy).  He’s been incredibly supportive and that help and generosity to me/her has been very harmful and come at great cost to him, which causes me so much pain, guilt and shame. Yes, he’s witty, yes he’s wonderful and yes I love him with all of my heart. I don’t want to cause any more suffering for him - he has endured so much.  He is a great human being and has tried to do everything he possibly can for my dd24 -  even though he has no direct responsibility for any of it.  

I walk a tight tight rope every day with trying to protect him from my incredibly destructive child and trying to not give up completely on her.  She needs the right therapy but won’t acknowledge her BPD or accept the help we could give her.  Until she does this, I just have to shut her out...self preservation for us both.

The empathy and love I see here makes me feel humble and also very sad for all the pain and suffering we go through as parents.  It starts out so great with a new baby and then once they hit their early teen years, it seems to go all to PLEASE READ.  At first I thought my daughter was going through normal adolescence with the ups and downs...it took years to know she had BPD.

[wavewatcher]

PM,
Thank you for widening my perception of the parameters of parental love with your own experience. You are a very compassionate being.

I can't find the thread that you referenced for The Bridge article- can you give more info?

An update on my dd25 saying her P prescribed more Xanax; the other night she admitted she lied to me about that. This was after I texted P with shock and disbelief that he would do that. He denied it. Turns out she had found an empty bottle with a remaining refill and used that to get more.  Fortunately she has recovered from that episode and is once again on Lithium. (sliver of hope) We're back to walking on eggshells rather than tiptoeing through a minefield.

DoneMom,
Several months ago in a peaceful moment with my dd I asked if she would sit with me and look at the dx criteria of BPD. She did and was shocked and sad at how she fit the profile. Her most violent episodes, especially toward me happened after that so I tell you this with caution. But she also agreed to hospitalization after the worst one (hospitalization or jail) and got a formal dx of BPD/BP2. At least she knows now that BPD/BP2 are what she has to learn to manage. She realizes that Xanax is poison to her and is actually applying for jobs. I can only take one day at a time, take care of myself (massage tomorrow, yay!) and appreciate the better days. Take care of you.

[Done-er Stepdad]

Gotta say: that she "found" an empty xanax bottle just lying around and then so easily refilled the prescription without question does not pass the logic-sniff test.

She may have a source to buy it. The kid can pretty much get any pill of any kind for a price (and we live in Mayberry Bible-land).

Can't say if a call to the pharmacy to bust her is worth the drama, tho.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[PeaceMom]

Ok “The Bridge” is under “Library:Content to Critique for possible feature articles”. The discussion thread afterwards was one of the most thought provoking I’ve read on this blog.

[Lollypop]

Hi peace mom and all

For those that don’t know my back story we have a 29 year old son who yo-yo’d out of our home at 18, 20 and 24. On his return at 24 with zero prospects, I faced our reality of the cycle we were caught in.

The only silver lining for us was that he got dx, found this forum and took a cold hard look our ourselves and my role I’d played, also acceptance that my adult son has “limitations”.

I’d spent years wishing for him to grow up and accept responsibility for himself. “Wishing” is for children. This may sound harsh but quite honestly, we have to be the change we want to see. You can’t change them.

Yes, my son has mental illness. However, that didn’t mean he couldn’t collect trolleys in a supermarket or dig holes. He’s physically fit and physically capable of performing a job. I decided that whatever happened he HAD to find a way to live his own life either on benefits if he was truly unfit for work or doing a basic job. He had to find a way to live on his income. We can’t fund another adult, will not enable/finance him and his poor life choices.

So how did I get him to find work? Stability.

We decided we would provide free bed and board, set a boundary of no smoking or drugs in the house and the one big change...I stopped giving him money. Not one penny. Not for his phone, not for cigarettes. I didn’t pay for him to be insured on my car. I waited...

While I waited for him to shift himself to an immediate better position (and I’ve got to say I felt quite joyful as my new sense of power because I was the one in control!) my number one top priority was to improve my relationship with my adult son. I’d had an unhealthy relationship for so long I had no idea what that looked like.

Negotiating ourselves into a new position where we can help them by doing so much less for them whilst at the same time improving/shifting the personal relationship to a more equal one  took some learning.  By treating my son as an equal, he feels to be an adult.

I found that by giving responsibility for his life in a gentle way he is able to muddle through the ups and downs of life. He resists most things, so moving on really only happens if there’s a change in circumstances like a break down in relationship.

For us, we found a way to live together while he got his life together. He did this by the tiniest of steps that he was quite unaware of. I’d say over 12-18 months he found himself a new rhythm with steady work that he enjoys. Regular income is critical and money is a constant worry for him - but hey, that’s life for us all.

There’s dramas of course. But there’s a steady trajectory of improvements over the course of the last 5 years. I found from 25 things improve but only if we get a grip of ourselves and go through the process of our own self development.

I can’t fix him.
His problems are his.
I live my own life and share my own challenges with him.
I accept he will always be a little crazy when the going gets tough,
I’ve taught his younger brother to set personal boundaries so he’s not emotionally blackmailed,

I hope this helps in some way. I also hope you know that you’re all doing fantastic. I don’t want to sound patronising at all. I say it genuinely. There’s many parents who arrive here and want a quick fix and, sadly, it doesn’t exist. Be the change you want to see.

Do the work, reading, validation and set yourself a few goals to work towards - it helped me keep to a bigger picture.
Keep things simple, keep it real. I paid out big 3 times to get my son out of my house...all I was doing to delaying the problem that he didn’t have the skill set.

We all learn by our mistakes !

LP