Storm brewing?

[Depression = 72% of members]

H and I have enjoyed a period of relative quiet where his BPD mom is concerned. Info he's started sharing from conversations with her make me wonder if the dust is starting to kick up again.

His mom decided last week to get an implanted hearing device. She has a Dr. appt this Wednesday to be assessed. She's already asked H to be with her during the surgery, which will probably mean several days with her. I'm debating going with him, or letting him go alone...I can see the upside of both.

The 'guy who cut her grass' unfortunately and unexpectedly passed away yesterday. (This was also a neighbor that H grew up with, so I found their description, "guy who cut her grass," interesting.) No word yet that H feels obligated to drive two hours to cut her grass, but I'm not sure that won't still happen.  

H has started twitching in his sleep again, so much so that it shakes me awake. Maybe anxiety related? His 13 year old made a poor choice a few weeks ago but H seems settled about that now. I can't quite figure out the trigger.


Part of me feels hypersensitive, and I also know there's a valid reason I feel this way. This is rather new territory as I've been devalued on a major scale by MIL and I'm not sure what this will mean. I don't want to stress or become paranoid but I do want to prepare. Am I on track? If so, thoughts on how? I've listed a few goals below:

1. Stay calm and detach with love when they dysregulate.
2. Enforce boundary of making plans together first.
3. Remember that their emotions don't define or control me.
4. Don't take things personally.

[pursuingJoy]

H and I have enjoyed a period of relative quiet where his BPD mom is concerned. Info he's started sharing from conversations with her make me wonder if the dust is starting to kick up again.

His mom decided last week to get an implanted hearing device. She has a Dr. appt this Wednesday to be assessed. She's already asked H to be with her during the surgery, which will probably mean several days with her. I'm debating going with him, or letting him go alone...I can see the upside of both.

The 'guy who cut her grass' unfortunately and unexpectedly passed away yesterday. (This was also a neighbor that H grew up with, so I found their description, "guy who cut her grass," interesting.) No word yet that H feels obligated to drive two hours to cut her grass, but I'm not sure that won't still happen.  

H has started twitching in his sleep again, so much so that it shakes me awake. Maybe anxiety related? His 13 year old made a poor choice a few weeks ago but H seems settled about that now. I can't quite figure out the trigger.


Part of me feels hypersensitive, and I also know there's a valid reason I feel this way. This is rather new territory as I've been devalued on a major scale by MIL and I'm not sure what this will mean. I don't want to stress or become paranoid but I do want to prepare. Am I on track? If so, thoughts on how? I've listed a few goals below:

1. Stay calm and detach with love when they dysregulate.
2. Enforce boundary of making plans together first.
3. Remember that their emotions don't define or control me.
4. Don't take things personally.

[GaGrl]

Thinking ahead with you. ..

Was MIL paying the "guy who cut her grass"?

Does she pay for other services?

[pursuingJoy]

Was MIL paying the "guy who cut her grass"?

Does she pay for other services?

She did, and she does. She also has a younger neighbor friend she calls on to help her with things, though there is frequent conflict with this person. Maybe she'll line up someone else without issue!

As has happened in the past, she may also use the almighty "you're the only person I have left in the world" phrase and H will be turned to mush. I want to be prepared with SET when/where appropriate, and know when to let it go and let him feel his feelings, do what he feels is necessary.

When he told me about the surgery I felt my pulse go up.  I cannot imagine how much weight he must feel. When his mom is in need he loses all sense of himself or others around him. I dread it for myself, and I feel for him. He will probably invent a reason to go see her in the next week or two so that he can put his mind at ease.

I appreciate your questions, Gagrl.

[Person2]

Very interesting to read about your situation. It’s especially interesting to hear something like this from the point-of-view of a spouse/partner.

For example, my husband is one of the kindest, most conscientious person I know. Up until recently, he was a bit of a buffer for me with my mother (claiming that she didn’t get to him like she does me). Now that he has health issues, I’m focused on managing this myself (I’m determined to limit what stress I can for him).

She's already asked H to be with her during the surgery, which will probably mean several days with her. I'm debating going with him, or letting him go alone...I can see the upside of both.

Getting involved in any medical things is the worst, right? I’ve seen first hand how awkward these times can be for SO’s. Does your H tend to rely on your support during these type of things?

I can really relate to you wanting to be prepared in a situation like this.

Enforce boundary of making plans together first.

Do you mean that you and he talk about what you’ll do first so she doesn’t dictate the plan?

[pursuingJoy]

For example, my husband is one of the kindest, most conscientious person I know. Up until recently, he was a bit of a buffer for me with my mother (claiming that she didn’t get to him like she does me). Now that he has health issues, I’m focused on managing this myself (I’m determined to limit what stress I can for him).

I'm so glad you're there for each other, Person2! I hope he is recovering quickly. I know it's painful, but apparently the powers that be knew you were ready to take this on. You've got this.  

Does your H tend to rely on your support during these type of things?

At the beginning, yes. Dynamic with BPD MIL started out with "you stole my baby but you're another source of supply so this works for me." After years of her inappropriate behavior and comments I put my foot down. Now our dynamic is "you stole my baby and serve me no purpose, I'll pretend you don't exist."

Where you see a problem with your mom's behavior, H is enmeshed, insists she is just a little quirky and tells me I'm the problem. Because of our dynamic, Gagrl and others have very wisely encouraged me to allow them to sort through their relationship and feel their feelings, to stay out of it.

Do you mean that you and he talk about what you’ll do first so she doesn’t dictate the plan?

Yes, it's something we agreed to do in marriage counseling. He is normally a great communicator and very thoughtful, but he gets 'lost' in his mom's world and forgets he has a wife

We agreed he would share the info about dates/times with me so that we could talk through logistics before making plans with MIL. It is SO hard for him to do this, usually he sets a plan with her and informs me what they're doing. It's hard for me to know when to push this issue and when to just let him be dysfunctional with her.

[Person2]

After years of her inappropriate behavior and comments I put my foot down

Yeah! Hearing that your H is in denial, this must have taken incredible personal strength on your part!

H is enmeshed, insists she is just a little quirky and tells me I'm the problem. Because of our dynamic, Gagrl and others have very wisely encouraged me to allow them to sort through their relationship and feel their feelings, to stay out of it.

“I’m the problem” - sounds like thinking that’s a LOT easier for him. Finding this site for support must have really made a difference for you!

We agreed he would share the info about dates/times with me so that we could talk through logistics before making plans with MIL

Sounds like a break through - yeah! I look forward to to hearing what you decide to do as far as accompanying him. With her feelings/attitude towards you, plus his being in denial, it’s so understandable why your ambivalent.

[GaGrl]

Having just gotten out of a five-day hospital experience, and going for a CT scan tomorrow to try to pin down an unknown, I am high-empathy right now for surgeries and hospitals.

So I would say it is reasonable for MIL to want your H with her for the surgery.

It's everything else that goes on around the surgery that needs to be planned for...transportation, picking up Rxs, administering the meds schedule, meals, baths/showers, follow-up with doc...and so forth.

The questions for you and husband are -- how much do you know about what her needs will be (reality), how much can you do without taking off excessive time or excessively disrupting your other responsibilities, what is H willing to do/does he have any limitations here, what home healthcare options are available, etc.

Is there a possibility of safely opening this conversation with your H to let him define what he plans to do? So that you can define what you can and will do?

This may be one of those situations where he has to live with his decision and the discomfort.

[pursuingJoy]

Finding this site for support must have really made a difference for you!

It did!    The MC had reservations about bringing up BPD to my H so it's never been a topic of conversation with him. I feel like I'm carrying a burden alone so I come here to share the weight and know that I'm not alone. 

So I would say it is reasonable for MIL to want your H with her for the surgery.

My wisemind is telling me the same, Gagrl.

It's everything else that goes on around the surgery that needs to be planned for...transportation, picking up Rxs, administering the meds schedule, meals, baths/showers, follow-up with doc...and so forth.

Very helpful thoughts! I hadn't considered this, so I did some preliminary research on the type of surgery. Here's what I have:

1. General anesthesia
2. Should last 2-3 hours, usually outpatient but may require an overnight stay in the hospital
3. Follow doctor’s instructions and take medication as directed
4. Arrange for a ride home and have someone with you for a day after your surgery
6. Remove the bandage, usually a few days after surgery
7. Should be able to shower and wash hair one week after surgery. Keep water out of your ear.
8. Staying hydrated and eating a healthy diet after surgery can help promote healing and help you get past any side effects from the anesthesia.
9. Follow up appointment one week after surgery.

Dizziness, nausea and balance issues are common after surgery.

Is there a possibility of safely opening this conversation with your H to let him define what he plans to do? So that you can define what you can and will do?

I can share the list above with him and talk through what to expect. It sounds like he will at least need to stay the night.

This may be one of those situations where he has to live with his decision and the discomfort.

Agree, tucking that reminder away. The other thing I'm considering is that my presence creates discomfort for them. She will feel better if I'm not there, so I'm inclined to simply support him going, maybe use a version of SET with my husband to explain why.   

I really appreciate your thoughts!

[Methuen]

Hi PJ,

She's already asked H to be with her during the surgery, which will probably mean several days with her.

Being with her during the surgery is hard to quibble with, and is something we would do for any family member, but I'm wondering about the "several days" after.  Could the "several days after" be a lingering assumption because of FOG?  I'm going to challenge a little...

Is H assuming he must be the sole caregiver?  Are there other family members, neighbours, friends who can help, or check on her, so she is getting attention from a wider variety of sources, and not just from H?  Would involving other caregivers mean H doesn't have to take days off work, when other people would be willing to help if asked?  I have realized over time that I was partly at fault always assuming that I had to do everything for mom, when really it was better for both her and I when others were also involved in her caregiving.  That's just my experience.

Regarding the surgery, I learned a lot by following up with the medical system after my mom was discharged from emergency and sent home with 4 fractures in her pelvis and sacrum at 83 yrs and living alone.  There was supposed to be a "care plan" for my mom before she was discharged (there wasn't).  Is it possible to ask in advance what kind of "after care" is usually needed?  Nursing care?  Bandage changes?  Attendants?  Medication?  Bed-rest or activity? Also, what are the risks?  You mention dizziness, balance issues, and nausea after the surgery.  What are the "statistics" for those things after this kind of surgery?  Is she ok to be alone and have someone "checking in" on her, or must she have an attendant?

Personally, I have had vertigo issues unrelated to surgery, and I can tell you that I was in bed for 3 weeks because I felt like I was on the rotary blade of a helicopter, spinning.  Dizziness, nausea, and balance issues evoke powerful memories for me.  I'm not wanting to sound unnecessary alarms, I'm just thinking it's good to ask the medical questions, and get some answers ahead of time, so one can be prepared, and not taken by surprise right?  I'm guessing it's a routine surgery, with few problems, but it would be super helpful to know that in advance, so MIL knows the expectations are for everything to be fine.  Conversely, if there is a high risk of dizziness, balance issues, and nausea afterwards, maybe it would be appropriate to circle back with the doctors about an "after care" plan once she is released from hospital, because if she had what I had, I could see that not being a good situation for a BPD and enmeshed son to have to deal with alone.

The 'guy who cut her grass'

About this, my mom's housekeeper told her she couldn't clean mom's house anymore because the housekeeper was starting cancer treatment.  When mom told me this her words were "There'll never be anyone like _______ again.  I just don't know what I'm going to do."  (Said despairingly).  Then there was silence, during which time it was my cue to jump in there and say "I would do it for you".  But I didn't.  It was super hard not too.  Instead, I put SET to use and said something like "It sounds like you are concerned and anxious about losing your housekeeper.  I can understand that would be a little scary.  But you still have a some time to find a new one before _______ is gone".  Guess what.  She found a new housekeeper who is now the "best housekeeper ever".
My guess is your MIL can find a new "guy to cut her grass", as long as H doesn't jump in there to rescue her first.  The hardest part is training H not to rescue right?  It's been hard for me too because I felt so much DUTY and FOG to mom.  But since I started to get the hang of SET and letting her be responsible for herself, it's been getting a little easier, for now.  

I can understand your anticipation and anxiety around the upcoming surgery. It's ripe for dysregulation as the surgery approaches, because of the stress that comes with it, and "change" in daily routine.  You are right to be concerned, and planning for it.

Since you are so thoughtful and wise, and also caring with all this, I hope that the planning helps, and the surgery is relatively straightforward and routine, and everything works out as normal as possible (kind of like it did for the funeral you went to with H a while back).  

 

[Spindle0516]

Meant to reply to this sooner, but it is the middle of the night, and I happen to be in a hospital, so now is as good a time as any! I just skimmed the thread, so sorry if anything I say is redundant or inaccurate to the conversation.

MIL had cataract surgery last year, one eye at a time. We were with her for both surgeries, but were much more prepared for the second surgery in comparison to the first. Experience lends a lot of useful tools and we were better prepared to not get sucked into doing too much simply because she had surgery.

So I would echo what everyone else has said. Having a strong understanding of what is happening medically can help you anticipate what types of supports are appropriate afterward.  I really like the list of questions you and GaGrl have written out.

We also found having the doctor outline what my MIL's responsibilities are herself afterward to be a huge help.

For example- it is obvious that after any surgery, rest is important. My MIL would milk that for all it is worth and have us do everything for her including going to the bathroom for her if we could. So having the doctor say things like, "It is important that you are taking a daily short walk to decrease risk for pneumonia" or anything appropriate in her situation to be helpful. The doctor has then placed the responsibility for certain things in her hands and it is easy to quote the doctor.  Might be a poor example, and not always appropriate in every situation, but worth exploring. Let me know if this needs clarification.

After surgery, they often send you home with aftercare instructions printed out. Perhaps you can get a copy if that beforehand so you can anticipate her most likely needs? That even helps eliminate potential he said/she said/Jading because the facts are all listed there to reference.

My MIL also suffers from severe depression, so doctors have even taken this into consideration when they make decisions surrounding her care. She had a serious leg injury that would have benefitted from surgery at one point, but because the doctor had a good repor with us, decided not to do the surgery after hearing about her mental health history. He felt she wouldn't be motivated to be an active participant in her recovery and that surgery would likely be more detrimental than the injury she already had.

Like Methuen said, even if your husband is the most appropriate helper in this situation, it doesn't mean he has to do it all. If he weren't there, some kind of appropriate plan would have to be put in place by the medical team. So maybe that means a visiting nurse or a home health aid for a period of time.

Has your husband expressed any thoughts/concerns about the surgery and plan of care afterward? (Btw, my husband also twitches in his sleep!)

Keep us posted on how this goes. 

[pursuingJoy]

Could the "several days after" be a lingering assumption because of FOG?

Absolutely yes, in my opinion. I know how things go so I guess I'm emotionally preparing for the "several days after."  I'm unable to convince him to do things one way or the other, especially if his mom is in crisis, so I'm preparing for eventualities.

It breaks his heart when his mom figures something out on her own. She made a decision about what surgery to get and he feels like a tool for not being there to help her walk through it. He genuinely wants to be her primary caregiver. There are other people who can care for her but that's a subpar option. Anything less than primary caregiver is equated to dereliction of duty. It is hard to watch.

Is H assuming he must be the sole caregiver?  Are there other family members, neighbours, friends who can help, or check on her, so she is getting attention from a wider variety of sources, and not just from H?  Would involving other caregivers mean H doesn't have to take days off work, when other people would be willing to help if asked?

He only ever talked to her while he was driving to work, never around me, but he used to update me. He hasn't talked to me about his mom in almost two months. I finally brought this up this weekend and invited him to share (he is visibly stressed and I'm fairly certain he feels a good deal of pressure from her). He shared that he was stressed about his mom's health and future plans. She was ready to move, maybe (she's been ready to move 7 or 8 times now), this time to a city one hour away from her where her 3 siblings live. It really is an ideal option but it creates major anxiety for her (and him, by proxy). 

He also said that she was falling "almost every day now" and commented, bitterly, that she might reach a point where he'd have to put her in assisted living and he would insist on moving her down to our city for that. This is the FIRST time he's ever mentioned assisted living and I think he blames me for having to make that choice.

He also offered that his mom didn't put any pressure on him at all, ever, in fact she told him that she "understood that he had a lot going on." I do wonder if I'm being painted as the overly demanding wife, and his mom is just so sorry that he has to put up with me .

This is a tangential musing, but a weird competitiveness has shown itself before. H and I redid our bathroom with a wood-look tile. We no sooner wrapped up ours than she asked H to remodel her bathroom with the same wood-look tile. Something always struck me as a little odd about that. It didn't fit the style of her home or match her personal decor choices. I realize now that in her mind, it was simple: he gave me something and she wanted one too. I do all the tiling and I spent days tiling her bathroom with not one thank you. I'm feeling some relief that these pieces make sense. 

I just listened, said it was a lot to think about and I said that I would support in the way that I could. When we got home, I brought up that I'd been researching the surgery and we needed to consider her balance issues and recovery. He waved off my considerations at first, but I kind of brought it back and pointed out that I was researching because I wanted him to feel supported and prepared. I think maybe that sunk in a little.

About this, my mom's housekeeper told her she couldn't clean mom's house anymore because the housekeeper was starting cancer treatment.  When mom told me this her words were "There'll never be anyone like _______ again.  I just don't know what I'm going to do."  (Said despairingly).  Then there was silence, during which time it was my cue to jump in there and say "I would do it for you".  But I didn't.  It was super hard not too.  Instead, I put SET to use and said something like "It sounds like you are concerned and anxious about losing your housekeeper.  I can understand that would be a little scary.  But you still have a some time to find a new one before _______ is gone".  Guess what.  She found a new housekeeper who is now the "best housekeeper ever".

There is so much power in silence! 

I can understand your anticipation and anxiety around the upcoming surgery. It's ripe for dysregulation as the surgery approaches, because of the stress that comes with it, and "change" in daily routine.  You are right to be concerned, and planning for it.

thanks for validating my concern, and for sharing practical applications from your own experience Methuen. H wants to fly by the seat of his pants but I feel strongly that we would benefit from some planning. We do need to think about an after-care plan.

I hope you're feeling better? I've heard vertigo is just miserable. 

[pursuingJoy]

How's your husband, Spindle?

Experience lends a lot of useful tools and we were better prepared to not get sucked into doing too much simply because she had surgery.

I find this incredibly validating. Thank you!   

We also found having the doctor outline what my MIL's responsibilities are herself afterward to be a huge help.

Good. Point. H said that his mom opted for a more expensive, less invasive surgery that shouldn't take more than 45 minutes. I'm not counting on her sticking to this decision, or that the surgery will be minimal. Based on what you and others have shared I'm realizing that there are a host of benefits to going into this prepared.
 

The doctor has then placed the responsibility for certain things in her hands and it is easy to quote the doctor.  Might be a poor example, and not always appropriate in every situation, but worth exploring.

Makes perfect sense and this makes me want to accompany him. She is less likely to manipulate him if I'm in the mix, and I'll be able to hear firsthand what the Dr. says. Is my reasoning off?

I cannot thank you enough for your practical advice about in-home medical care and getting the list of after-surgery care requirements before the surgery. Great suggestions borne of experience. Thank you!

Has your husband expressed any thoughts/concerns about the surgery and plan of care afterward?

No he waves off any thought that there might be complications, out of fear, but also because they both operate in such knee-jerk symbiosis. If she needs him he'll drop what he's doing and go. I want to change up this knee-jerk reaction thing and think ahead to achieve a more centered, less anxiety driven response. 

(Btw, my husband also twitches in his sleep!)

What is up with this?    I've often wondered if it's related to PTSD. In addition to unaddressed FOO trauma, more and more is coming out about his experience serving in Iraq. He's seen some awful things.

[Methuen]

PJ it feels like you are a superstar with unending patience.  I have quite a lot of patience, but I don't think I come close to meeting the level your bar is at.  

It breaks his heart when his mom figures something out on her own. She made a decision about what surgery to get and he feels like a tool for not being there to help her walk through it. He genuinely wants to be her primary caregiver. There are other people who can care for her but that's a subpar option. Anything less than primary caregiver is equated to dereliction of duty. It is hard to watch.

This is interesting.  I really don't know what to say.  I'm just working on imagining what this would be like to live with this, and be in your position in the triangle, and I think it would be harder than what I have to deal with, with my uBPD mom, because I have choice and autonomy on how to respond to her, but you have to live with how they respond to each other and that is out of your control.    
 Like you say, hard to watch.

Between her "needing her son", and "her son needing to be needed", whose needs do you think are higher in that relationship?  I don't really want an answer, just putting the thought out there because H sounds pretty enmeshed and not wanting her to be independent and autonomous.  

The doctor has then placed the responsibility for certain things in her hands and it is easy to quote the doctor.  Might be a poor example, and not always appropriate in every situation, but worth exploring.

Makes perfect sense and this makes me want to accompany him. She is less likely to manipulate him if I'm in the mix, and I'll be able to hear firsthand what the Dr. says. Is my reasoning off?

Your reasoning is perfectly excellent PJ, and necessary!

(Btw, my husband also twitches in his sleep!)

What is up with this?

Are they whole body twitches, or just the legs?  My moms legs have twitched in her sleep her whole life.  Diagnosis: restless legs syndrome.  If you're talking about whole body twitches it would be something else for sure.

He shared that he was stressed about his mom's health and future plans. She was ready to move, maybe (she's been ready to move 7 or 8 times now), this time to a city one hour away from her where her 3 siblings live. It really is an ideal option but it creates major anxiety for her (and him, by proxy).

Moving to a city where she has 3 siblings sounds ideal!   If she's thought about it 7 or 8 times, that seems to suggest it's something she wants because she keeps coming back to it.  Would this sibling support be good for her?  Why would she keep bringing this up if she doesn't want it?

Would MIL be closer or further away from H if she moved?  Do you think there's a chance your H is worried about being "replaced" by her siblings?  (I guess I'm getting back to what his needs are with that question.)

He also offered that his mom didn't put any pressure on him at all

Maybe, but does he have enough awareness to recognize if she is putting pressure on him?

He also said that she was falling "almost every day now" and commented, bitterly, that she might reach a point where he'd have to put her in assisted living and he would insist on moving her down to our city for that. This is the FIRST time he's ever mentioned assisted living and I think he blames me for having to make that choice.

Why is she falling almost every day?  Is it to do with her ear surgery and balance? Does her Dr know?  Have you seen bruises on her from falling?  Any chance that could that be hyperbole?  

There is a lot to think about in that paragraph.  I don't understand why H thinks "he" would put her in assisted living.  Where she lives is her choice.  Is he going to make that decision for her?  Is he implying (with bitterness) that you are taking away his choice to have his mother come live with him?   I feel a marriage is based on equality and trust between two people who make mutual decisions together in partnership, and if you aren't comfortable with having MIL move in, then he needs to respect that and let his mom make her own choices about where to live.  In wanting her to move in, is he considering her needs or his?  It just seems like he really needs her to need him.  A bit odd.  Think of a widget factory that has two people in business partnership together.  One person wants to expand the factory with a growth plan that has a lot of business risk, and wants to add new employees, and the other person wants to maintain the status quo with the business as it is, and no new risk.  New employees can't arrive on the factory floor if both business partners haven't agreed to the change right?  That would  lead to conflict between the partners right?  Marriage partners need to be in agreement before a big decision is made that affects both partners.  It doesn't sound like you think moving MIL in would strengthen the marriage.  Hold your boundaries PJ.  Clearly there's going to be pressure applied to those boundaries.  What I don't understand, is if MIL is talking about moving closer to her siblings, why is H fighting that, and talking about moving MIL into assisted living?  What is he afraid of losing if she moves closer to her siblings? Wherever she moves, she will be able to find the support she needs right?

This is a tangential musing, but a weird competitiveness has shown itself before. H and I redid our bathroom with a wood-look tile. We no sooner wrapped up ours than she asked H to remodel her bathroom with the same wood-look tile. Something always struck me as a little odd about that.

Huh.  So my mom is a copycat too.  Especially with reno's.  She and her younger sister went back and forth like this for years (I especially remember uBPD mom copying the exact oak kitchen cabinets her sister got).  Eventually her younger sister moved away.  That was nuclear.  My mom has copycatted me with wanting to know who my dentist is, my hairdresser, even my friends (and wanted to go visit my friends).  It got too weird.  I don't know if it's actually competetiveness, or if it's just that they have so little sense of "self and identity", that they fill themselves up (so they don't feel "empty") by copying others.  Does that make any sense?  Maybe not.

We do need to think about an after-care plan.

Yes, getting the facts in advance will be super super super helpful.  

My vertigo (BPPV) will be different than anything your MIL could have after surgery I think.  I know a couple of people that have had ear surgery (two for implants and one for cancer), and there was no complication after surgery.

Hoping for the best for you.

[Spindle0516]

PJ it feels like you are a superstar with unending patience

I agree! 

ve often wondered if it's related to PTSD. In addition to unaddressed FOO trauma, more and more is coming out about his experience serving in Iraq. He's seen some awful things.

Are they whole body twitches, or just the legs?  My moms legs have twitched in her sleep her whole life.  Diagnosis: restless legs syndrome.  If you're talking about whole body twitches it would be something else for sure.

For my husband, they are whole body twitches. I tend to think they are connected to stress on some level, but we never spoke to a doctor. He says he can feel it and has done it as long as he can remember. I do notice a connection to how much he twitches and his stress and exhaustion levels. The more stressed he is, or the more tired he is, the more he twitches. It is actually how I can usually tell if he has fallen asleep.

Never thought about it much, but now I am wondering if it is weird?

Makes perfect sense and this makes me want to accompany him. She is less likely to manipulate him if I'm in the mix, and I'll be able to hear firsthand what the Dr. says. Is my reasoning off?
 

This has worked for us. It does get tricky because she hates not being in control of the situation, but if an appointment is in regard to anything that requires planned aftercare, we typically go together. It helps us to hear directly from the doctor what to expect and gives us the opportunity to ask specific questions about the procedure, possible risks/side affects and what is reasonable care.

If she needs him he'll drop what he's doing and go. I want to change up this knee-jerk reaction thing and think ahead to achieve a more centered, less anxiety driven response.

In a true emergency, this makes sense, but this is minor surgery. I wonder how you can go about presenting it to avoid the knee jerk reaction.

It seems logical to say that having these conversations and planning ahead can eliminate some future stress. Like if the outcome is A than we do this, but if the outcome is B, than we do this...

But then again, we are often dealing outside of logic, so it isn't that simple.

He also offered that his mom didn't put any pressure on him at all

Maybe, but does he have enough awareness to recognize if she is putting pressure on him? 

My husband would often say things like this- since we learned about BPD, I have noticed less of it though. I think he is starting to see that her statements always carry some kind of weight for him and that sometimes he has to disregard them.

He would say things like, "My mom said blah blah blah and I actually agree with her and dont think she meant it in that awful way it came across..."

All that before I could even have a reaction. Does this even make sense?

  He shared that he was stressed about his mom's health and future plans. She was ready to move, maybe (she's been ready to move 7 or 8 times now), this time to a city one hour away from her where her 3 siblings live. It really is an ideal option but it creates major anxiety for her (and him, by proxy). 

Why is she falling almost every day?  Is it to do with her ear surgery and balance? Does her Dr know?  Have you seen bruises on her from falling?  Any chance that could that be hyperbole?

Oh man, if this is not what we have been going through, I don't know what is!

I sometimes feel like a volleyball with all the new plans she has in regard to moving. I truly know how stressful and anxiety inducing all that can be and I hope it doesn't become a long complicated situation like it has been for us. I finally feel like we might have made some headway, but I'll post about that tomorrow.

I second Methuen's questions. This might not be relevant, but my MIL has had an uncanny habit of "falling" or "getting sick" or "hurting herself" around times of change or when she feels like she is being asked to be independent or do something scary. Lately, she has been "super confused" and "super forgetful." I can't prove anything, but I often feel like it is an act. When she is uncomfortable, her temperament and even her gait changes the moment she is around anyone besides my husband or myself. Her affect alters and she even starts to squint her eyes. The eye squint is usually a giveaway something is off.

Knowing if it is something truly medical might help you determine the best way to approach this situation or if you even should at all.

Sending hugs, PJ. You're doing great! 

[once removed]

hey pJ 

I'm debating going with him, or letting him go alone...I can see the upside of both.

has he asked? if not, whats your sense on his thoughts?

[pursuingJoy]

has he asked? if not, whats your sense on his thoughts?

Hey!  I never mentioned going, he initiated and said I'm welcome to come if I'd like to. He would love to have me there but my presence also creates tension because like Spindle suggested, my MIL is most comfortable when she's in full control.

PJ it feels like you are a superstar with unending patience.

I feel like my patience is what got me so far into this mess. I thought it was the right response. It takes mindfulness to respond appropriately in the moment and be proactive about preparing for conflict.

I agree that a person in my position (BPD MIL) has less control over the outcome than the person in your position (BPD parent). I don't envy what my husband goes through, though. There is so much FOG to sort through, a lifetime of conditioning that doesn't jive in other relationships. I can say no and set a boundary and he feels genuine anguish. I guess it's a different set of challenges.

Good point about him needing to be needed, Methuen. We've been chatting very generally about black and white thinking. I relate it to other things, not his mom, so that he doesn't get defensive. I wonder if this is another topic of discussion I can bring up safely?

Moving to a city where she has 3 siblings sounds ideal!  If she's thought about it 7 or 8 times, that seems to suggest it's something she wants because she keeps coming back to it.  Would this sibling support be good for her?  Why would she keep bringing this up if she doesn't want it?

It is ideal! The previous 6 or 7 times, she'd planned on moving in with us or down to our city. She doesn't know anyone else here so we would have borne the full brunt of all of her needs, social and otherwise. This is the first time she's talked about moving to Sibling City, which is exactly the same distance from us as she is currently. Siblings seem to get along great. Not sure he's as worried about being replaced (though I hadn't thought of that) as much as he fears looking like he is derelict in his duties.

Maybe, but does he have enough awareness to recognize if she is putting pressure on him?

Nope.

Why is she falling almost every day?  Is it to do with her ear surgery and balance? Does her Dr know?  Have you seen bruises on her from falling?  Any chance that could that be hyperbole? 

Never seen bruises and I have no idea if she talks to her Dr's about falling. She can't hear out of one ear, so it's possible she has balance issues. She also gets on ladders to get things in the pantry or switch out air filters. I've seen her sway and almost fall over walking down the ramp to the car because she knows he's watching, and an hour later she's walking down a rocky, uneven path with nary a look down. It is so interesting to observe.

What I don't understand, is if MIL is talking about moving closer to her siblings, why is H fighting that, and talking about moving MIL into assisted living?  What is he afraid of losing if she moves closer to her siblings? Wherever she moves, she will be able to find the support she needs right?

I appreciate your perspective Methuen, because until now, I assumed he was simply feeling her feelings for her. She's anxious = he's anxious. I never considered that he could be struggling with this idea for reasons of his own, his need to be needed, fear of being replaced, or whatever else. I'll be pondering this.

I think part of the reason he feels responsible to put her in assisted living is because there is some serious parentification going on - both of them believe that he is the adult who should be choosing for her, even though she is fully capable and cognizant.

She will be able to find support wherever she goes. I'm hoping that thinking through the pieces and different elements of care and support will help him let go. He has a host of resources and people, but he can't get past his own anxiety to see that. 

I don't know if it's actually competetiveness, or if it's just that they have so little sense of "self and identity", that they fill themselves up (so they don't feel "empty") by copying others.  Does that make any sense?  Maybe not.

All the sense in the world that she wanted a copycat reno because of her lack of sense of self. I can see how this theory fits more accurately. It was frustrating to shop with her because she had NO idea what she wanted. I learned quickly to offer her two options - paint color, vanity style, tile options, whatever. I was reading up on info that we have on mirroring here and she does it constantly. As I'm talking, she actually mouths the words that are coming out of my mouth, sometimes saying them with me or just after me. Again, a very interesting phenomenon.
 
H and MIL are insisting that this will be a no-complications kind of surgery but as we've agreed this situation is ripe. I could see her taking advantage and coming up with needs and coming to him last minute. I spoke with him this morning about just being prepared for eventualities for his mom's sake, and his own peace of mind. He agreed. He's talking to his mom about possibly staying with her sister for a day or two after surgery, maybe lining up some people to check on her.

For my husband, they are whole body twitches.

Never thought about it much, but now I am wondering if it is weird?

My H's whole body twitches get mildly worse with stress, too, but he's been doing it so much it will wake me up out of a dead sleep. It shakes the whole bed. I don't know if it's weird or not - I guess if it disrupts life enough, we could see a Dr. about it. Keep me posted if you have any other thoughts.

He would say things like, "My mom said blah blah blah and I actually agree with her and dont think she meant it in that awful way it came across..."

All that before I could even have a reaction. Does this even make sense?

Omg yes. My H has structured sentences in exactly the same way. The 'actually agree' part has created some major conflicts between us. He'll say he thought the visit went great, but when he learned that her feelings were hut and she thought I should have been more friendly, he 'actually agreed.' And he can't understand why I feel like an outsider in their relationship.

It's hard to listen but I'm working on suspending judgment and letting him talk.  I do think somewhere down deep, he doesn't like this or he knows something is off.

I sometimes feel like a volleyball with all the new plans she has in regard to moving. I truly know how stressful and anxiety inducing all that can be and I hope it doesn't become a long complicated situation like it has been for us. I finally feel like we might have made some headway, but I'll post about that tomorrow.

I really hope there are better days ahead for both of us! I'll look for your update, Spindle.

I second Methuen's questions. This might not be relevant, but my MIL has had an uncanny habit of "falling" or "getting sick" or "hurting herself" around times of change or when she feels like she is being asked to be independent or do something scary. Lately, she has been "super confused" and "super forgetful." I can't prove anything, but I often feel like it is an act. When she is uncomfortable, her temperament and even her gait changes the moment she is around anyone besides my husband or myself. Her affect alters and she even starts to squint her eyes. The eye squint is usually a giveaway something is off.

I so get all of this. Same here. I don't want to say she's faking it, because how would I know, but I see the same coincidences that you do. I'm hoping that H and I can reach a point where we simply breathe before jumping, and when appropriate, suggest actual solutions to the problems.

This morning I asked H if she'd ever considered using a walker or cane to help with stability. He said it was a good idea, he'd ask. My immediate, albeit judgmental thought: why on earth hasn't this come up before? Maybe this is the role I can play in her care: to plan ahead and think pragmatically about solving solutions. It's not how they want to operate so they'll dismiss me, but maybe some of it will sink in too.

I really appreciate you helping me through these pieces. BPD village for the win. 

[Person2]

He also offered that his mom didn't put any pressure on him at all, ever, in fact she told him that she "understood that he had a lot going on."

Regarding the quote above, I’d like to share an entertaining, very short story titled Louise, by W. Somerset Maugham (go to page 150; it’s only 10 pages long): https://archive.org/stream/cosmopolitans00maug?ref=ol

[GaGrl]

My 93 year old mom (with a few BPD traits) actually welcomed the use of a good walker. She has stenosis of the lower spine, which surgery did not completely help, so she has pain when standing for very long. Combine that with macular degeneration, which makes her walk tentatively because she can't see what's in front of her, and the walker gives her a way to take pressure off her back plus sit down on the seat when she needs it, plus knowing the wheels are going to hit an obstruction before she would trip.

Now, she's 93 -- that's a lot easier in terms of accepting an aging tool than someone in her early to mid seventies.  Maybe introducing a walker as a temporary assist would work, then see if she gets to like it.

One thing I've noticed with my mom is that her recuperations go better when I praise her on how well she is doing. It seems to head off a lot of complaining.

The Sibling City sounds wonderful -- one can hope. Many people who live alone do better in Assisted Living, because they have both privacy and a close social network. This is where the boundary of her living with you has to be held -- it isn't good for the marriage. We have a relative who separated over this very question and reconciled only after her boundary was established -- "I will not live with your mother." Of course, the mother/MIL was ( my suspicion) BPD, the son/husband was an only child, and MIL lived to be 96 years old!I

[pursuingJoy]

Regarding the quote above, I’d like to share an entertaining, very short story titled Louise, by W. Somerset Maugham

Person2 I thoroughly enjoyed your story.

I laughed - "He gave up the games he excelled in, not because she wished him to, she was glad that he should play golf and hunt, but because by a coincidence she had a heart attack whenever he proposed to leave her for the day."

I cheered (quietly) - "Never. I think you've carried out for twenty five years a stupendous bluff."

Then sad, because the guilt lingers after death - "She died gently forgiving Iris for having killed her."

My 93 year old mom (with a few BPD traits) actually welcomed the use of a good walker.

Now, she's 93 -- that's a lot easier in terms of accepting an aging tool than someone in her early to mid seventies.

I can't tell you what a relief it is to me to hear y'alls experiences with aging parents/in-laws and how you manage. Really, thank you for sharing.

She may not be ready to use a walker at 73. To be honest, I don't think she needs one. I get a little frustrated at their aversion to solutions. She cycles through complaints and problems because it serves to meet her emotional needs. Suggesting a practical solution disrupts their usual back and forth. But maybe I'm missing the point - when she complains, should I walk away and let him stew in it and let the cycle be?

One thing I've noticed with my mom is that her recuperations go better when I praise her on how well she is doing. It seems to head off a lot of complaining.

I've tried this in small ways, admiring her independence or ability. I still try because I think it's important truth telling, validating the valid, but without fail she minimizes or ignores and focuses on what's wrong. It's like the solutions conversation. I read somewhere that BPD's become anxious when you praise their accomplishments or independence. Does that sound right?

The Sibling City sounds wonderful -- one can hope.  

Right? It really seems like a great solution. She gets along well with her siblings...hmmmm...however, their family has a history of back-biting and gossip. One thing I could see conveniently cropping up to prevent her from moving is a conflict with one of her siblings.

The other thing my H has suggested is that she and her best friend move in together in their current city. That's another common trend with seniors and it would make so much sense for them. Not sure why she hasn't pursued that.

We all talked about buying a house together when H and I got married. I'm thankful every day that I dodged that bullet. He would have to have boundaries, I'm talking boundaries with a capital B, to even consider it. I will in no way live with his mother, especially because he is enmeshed. Thank you for validating the way I feel with the story of your relative. I still question whether I'm being selfish sometimes.

[Harri]

I read somewhere that BPD's become anxious when you praise their accomplishments or independence. Does that sound right?

Yes, I just read that.  It has to do with triggering the fear of abandonment in some pwBPD.  I read it in a topic for parents of kids with BPD who are in therapy so I don't know how much it would apply to your MIL but it is something to think about, even with your husband.  I'll see if I can find the pdf I was reading.

Your MIL learn? to function on her own, what does that mean for your husband?

Your MIL learns to function and be self sufficient and then 'loses' the support of her son.  What is likely to happen if you praise her too much?

[Methuen]

I read somewhere that BPD's become anxious when you praise their accomplishments or independence. Does that sound right?

Absolutely.  And since I've had time to process available info on BPD, and had time to reflect back on past events with my mom over my lifetime, I can verify that this is absolutely the case with my mom.  For example, because I always desired a healthy relationship with my mom, I used give her lots of praise for the positive things she was responsible for.  It's the natural thing to do to say kind or positive things to people, right?  For mom, it always fell on deaf ears. There was always a complete non-reaction, as if I hadn't even said the words.  Now, I think I understand that she has such a negative sense of self (I am unlovable), and an "empty" sense of self, that she simply couldn't bear hearing a complement, because she couldn't cope with hearing what wasn't believable to her.  As for any illness she's ever had, if I told her she seemed to be recovering well, there would be a relapse.  And if we were going on a road trip or a longer holiday, and I dared to suggest or light heartedly joke that she would manage fine while we were gone, I would pay the price.  Back then I hadn't even heard of BPD, and even in recent years when I knew about BPD, I didn't understand it.  Only now that I've informed myself of BPD, does it all make sense that the fear of abandonment is the latent motivator for all that irrational behavior.  Encouraging her that she would be fine while we would be away on a holiday was invalidating, because we were abandoning her (she famously once screamed at our family that she could die while we were away on holidays).  Praising her about something she had learned to do well was also invalidating.  Telling her that her recovery seemed to be going well (from a  surgery- she's had 4 of them), was invalidating because she didn't want to lose the attention she was getting from us post-surgery. My mom, while being a fiercely independent personality with her friends, has always been emotionally dependent on me, and I now understand she has an overwhelming fear of abandonment.  

Since your MIL has a surgery coming up, I would exercise caution and avoid telling her how well her recovery is progressing (even if it is).  From my experience that could boomerang a big problem right back at you.  While I still say positive things to my mom now, I am much more muted about it, and I avoid blatant praise.  So while it's ok to recognize that the surgery went well for your MIL (assuming it does), I wouldn't focus on that, or she may start to feel worse!

It's all so counter-intuitive that it's no wonder we all struggle with relationships with our BPD SO's.  Sometimes it seems like everything we do in kindness in a healthy relationship, is exactly what we have to avoid in a relationship with a BPD SO, because they find it invalidating.  I just wish I knew 40 years ago, what I know now.  My relationship with her could have been so much different.  I feel so much damage to the relationship could have been avoided, had I known what I needed to do, because she couldn't.

[pursuingJoy]

What is likely to happen if you praise her too much?

It'll backfire. She'll panic, fearing abandonment, and act out.

Is there a time and place to point out her progress with H? For example, she expressed a great deal of anxiety before her aunt's funeral, it was her last 'person,' what ever would she do going forward, etc. At the funeral she received a lot of attention and she was smiling and social and talkative. I haven't heard any mention of the aunt's passing since. Ok to comment to H, positively, that she seems to be managing well?

There was always a complete non-reaction, as if I hadn't even said the words.

This describes it so well.

Encouraging her that she would be fine while we would be away on a holiday was invalidating, because we were abandoning her (she famously once screamed at our family that she could die while we were away on holidays). 

Oh my. 

Since the beginning, I've marveled at her constant ruminations of her own death. I've never met anyone that does that. I thought maybe it was associated with BPD's SI, seeing death as an end to their suffering. I guess it could also be an attention-getting technique. It's extremely effective with H.

Since your MIL has a surgery coming up, I would exercise caution and avoid telling her how well her recovery is progressing (even if it is). 

Done! Thanks for the caution! 

It's all so counter-intuitive that it's no wonder we all struggle with relationships with our BPD SO's.  Sometimes it seems like everything we do in kindness in a healthy relationship, is exactly what we have to avoid in a relationship with a BPD SO, because they find it invalidating.

I know right? We were doing the best we could with the information we had at the time. When we knew better, we acted on it and did better...that's what matters. 

[Mata]

This might not be relevant, but my MIL has had an uncanny habit of "falling" or "getting sick" or "hurting herself" around times of change or when she feels like she is being asked to be independent or do something scary. Lately, she has been "super confused" and "super forgetful." I can't prove anything, but I often feel like it is an act.

This is so interesting, I've noticed the same thing with my BPD mom.  Ever since she moved into assisted living she falls down more, started carrying a cane (but she doesn't really use it unless someone is watching her), and "forgets" all her medical appointments.  Some of it is real, I think.  But it often feels exaggerated, or re-hashed.  For example, she started a new medication, had some bad side effects, and discontinued it.  Several weeks later, after I hadn't talked to her for a few days, she kept mentioning the side effects in our conversation, as if they were still happening, even though she had told me the week before she felt better and they had gone away. 

Lately I've been responding to this stuff by saying it must be frustrating not to feel well, and then suggesting she call the doctor.     

Now, I think I understand that she has such a negative sense of self (I am unlovable), and an "empty" sense of self, that she simply couldn't bear hearing a complement, because she couldn't cope with hearing what wasn't believable to her.  As for any illness she's ever had, if I told her she seemed to be recovering well, there would be a relapse.  And if we were going on a road trip or a longer holiday, and I dared to suggest or light heartedly joke that she would manage fine while we were gone, I would pay the price. 

Again, I can so relate to this.  I've always tried to be encouraging of my mom, thinking positive reinforcement was helpful.  On our last vacation in December, I assured her she would be fine...and lo and behold, she ended up in the emergency room (she was released, the doctors didn't find anything wrong with her).  It's almost like she has to prove me wrong if I tell her she is doing good or will be okay.  I guess this is because a compliment feels invalidating to her, so she has to do something to invalidate the compliment.    

[Methuen]

Ok to comment to H, positively, that she seems to be managing well?

I think it makes sense.  He will need reassuring too.  

Since the beginning, I've marveled at her constant ruminations of her own death... I guess it could also be an attention-getting technique.

There's probably a lot of different things going on here.  My mom is also a bit obsessed with death.  She is possessed with the need to have her name in something that she thinks will endure past when she does.   She graduated from nursing school in the 1950's.  When H and I were in the city where she graduated, we had to make a special trip to the hospital which had class photos of grads archived in a back hallway, and had to take a picture of her photo with her name, and text it to her to prove that we were there.  It was a pretty needy demand that felt a little "off".  It felt like had we not visited her photo, it would have been a sign to her that I didn't love her.  A lot of her demands feel like that.  And I'm pretty sure she graduated by the skin of her teeth, because she had a problem passing exams (always reportedly had a migraine on exam day).  Also, I suspect many BPD's struggle with the idea of their own death.  These days, all my mom talks about is all her friends  health problems, and she goes to every funeral she can, even those of people she hardly knows.  She wants me to take her to them.  I have other commitments at those times.  I figure it's better if she goes with a friend who also knew the person right, since they're going to?  I don't want to feel like a voyeur.  Plus I don't want the long conversation about the funeral that would follow (about someone I didn't even know).  Sigh.

[pursuingJoy]

Some of it is real, I think.  But it often feels exaggerated, or re-hashed. 

Lately I've been responding to this stuff by saying it must be frustrating not to feel well, and then suggesting she call the doctor.     

You described it well and I like how your response places responsibility back on her for making a phone call and taking care of her health instead of jumping into caretaking mode or trying to guess if it's real or not. 

It's almost like she has to prove me wrong if I tell her she is doing good or will be okay. 

I like encouraging others so this dynamic is tough for me. I read somewhere that if a normal relationship is the photograph, BPD is the negative and you have to learn to respond accordingly.

These days, all my mom talks about is all her friends  health problems, and she goes to every funeral she can, even those of people she hardly knows.  She wants me to take her to them.

I'm sure some of this obsession with death and dying is normal aging, I just haven't seen it in other seniors I'm close to. Going to funerals of people I don't know would feel weird to me, too.