Losing sight of “normal”

[Ozzie101]

I’m sure I’m not alone in this and lately I’ve been thinking about it: Sometimes I feel like I don’t know anymore what “normal” is in a relationship.

What of H’s grievances fall under the category of reasonable? As in, “Yeah, anyone in a relationship should expect that.”

And what’s manipulation or BPD?

Things have been rough lately. One of H’s big complaints is that I don’t support him. Meaning I don’t “call people out” about things. My dad didn’t respond to a text? I should call him out for it. H is unhappy at work? I should get fired up and tell him to quit. Or somehow jump in front of him and take the bullet.

He obviously doesn’t feel supported but I know I can’t really fix that because I don’t think there’s anything I can do to make him feel that.

Or last week he flipped out about an old friend of mine. We dated (I use the term very loosely — one small kiss one time) briefly as teens but have been friends since forever. He lives several hours away and we hardly ever see each other so all our contact is email. H has met him and has said he sees there’s nothing to feel threatened over. Something triggered him Friday.. H got very upset over this, saying that if I were upset about an old girlfriend he would cut off all contact. Or saying “well maybe I’ll start being friends with an old girlfriend, then. That’s the same thing.” It’s not, but he wasn’t going to see that.

So then a little part of me starts wondering — is my refusal to end a 30-year friendship unreasonable and insensitive?

I don’t think it is.

Anyway, anyone else sometimes struggle to distinguish between healthy relationship stuff and — not?

[ct21218]

My ex would try to make it my job to fix his problems.   He seemed to want an almost enmeshed relationship.  He would also try to force me to be friends with some of his female friends, telling them that I would call them to have lunch.

We did have couples therapy at one point and I started pretty clearly that I didn't want to fight his battles or manage his relationships with people.  We are individuals and can manage our own relationships.  We don't have to have the same opinions on people or situations.   He reacted badly when I told him this on my own but seemed to take it better from a the therapist.

Ultimately it came up over and over, and I would clearly restate my boundaries and refuse to involve myself in his drama.  It got a little better, but I think he was comfortable being helpless in his life.

[Cat Familiar]

I completely lost sight of normal in my first marriage. It began as a slow erosion of my concept of what a relationship ought to be. The endless pressure made me rethink what I had hoped and believed a relationship should be. I convinced myself that I should adapt to the give and take of my partner.

The problem was, there was little give on his part and mostly take. I didn't realize that at the time, as I was so immersed in trying to keep the peace.

I'm not sure how much of this behavior that I experienced would fall under BPD. However, I would bet that most of it would definitely be a sign of NPD. As many of us here experience, these personality disorders can be fluid.

###

Now, in my second marriage to a partner with a personality disorder, I can't say that I experience any of this. I've had some griping ("You don't want to go do things with me.") I've been resistant to doing things I really don't want to do, such as going to loud jam band concerts. So I don't.

I also don't go on weekend trips with him when I know it involves a lot of driving and will be something uninteresting to me. (He likes to go to a hot springs place and sit around and do nothing but read. I'd rather hike, bike, do something active. I can read at home or sit in our hot tub. And I'd much rather have time to ride my horse, take care of things at home, anything but sit around.)

He's come to accept that in me and there are no more complaints. And I accept that he enjoys things I don't.

My advice to you is to figure out what are your values and hang onto those tightly. If you value a 30 year friendship, then don't even think about dropping it. If you value choosing when and if you respond to someone else in defense of him, then respond (or don't respond) only on your terms, not because you feel pressured.

[Ozzie101]

Thanks, y’all

H definitely tends to move to the Victim position, ct.

Cat, that’s pretty much what I’ve been doing. And I know I have to do what I believe is right. But living with a pwBPD can really mess with your head. I start questioning myself. Is he right? Am I unreasonable/selfish? Am I abnormal?

I know that sort of thing is normal in situations like this but sometimes it’s hard to see the line.

“Couples are supposed to support each other.” Of course. I agree. But what constitutes as “support”? Our definitions are different.

What I don’t want to do is start losing myself, where my every word and action is calculated to deal with his moods and demands.

[Lucky Jim]

What I don’t want to do is start losing myself, where my every word and action is calculated to deal with his moods and demands.

Hey Ozzie, I lost myself for a while there in my marriage to my BPDxW, which was not fun.  I became a stranger to myself, which is a terrible way to be.

I suggest you do all you can to keep up important relationships with friends and family, including the old friend from your teens.  Without those relationships, you can lose all perspective, as you describe.  Make sure you keep your lines of communication open at all costs.  Do you have a way to reach out privately if you feel the need?

Isolation, common in BPD relationships, is a technique to break down prisoners of war.  Don't let this happen to you.  Stand up for yourself as needed.  Usually a pwBPD will back down if he/she sees your firm intention.  Prepare yourself for the onset of F-O-G.

At the end of the day, you have to take charge of your life, because otherwise you can can get overwhelmed by the BPD tidal wave.  I nearly drowned in that tsunami.

LuckyJim

[jaded7]

I’m sure I’m not alone in this and lately I’ve been thinking about it: Sometimes I feel like I don’t know anymore what “normal” is in a relationship.

What of H’s grievances fall under the category of reasonable? As in, “Yeah, anyone in a relationship should expect that.”

And what’s manipulation or BPD?

Things have been rough lately. One of H’s big complaints is that I don’t support him. Meaning I don’t “call people out” about things. My dad didn’t respond to a text? I should call him out for it. H is unhappy at work? I should get fired up and tell him to quit. Or somehow jump in front of him and take the bullet.

He obviously doesn’t feel supported but I know I can’t really fix that because I don’t think there’s anything I can do to make him feel that.

Or last week he flipped out about an old friend of mine. We dated (I use the term very loosely — one small kiss one time) briefly as teens but have been friends since forever. He lives several hours away and we hardly ever see each other so all our contact is email. H has met him and has said he sees there’s nothing to feel threatened over. Something triggered him Friday.. H got very upset over this, saying that if I were upset about an old girlfriend he would cut off all contact. Or saying “well maybe I’ll start being friends with an old girlfriend, then. That’s the same thing.” It’s not, but he wasn’t going to see that.

So then a little part of me starts wondering — is my refusal to end a 30-year friendship unreasonable and insensitive?

I don’t think it is.

Anyway, anyone else sometimes struggle to distinguish between healthy relationship stuff and — not?

This is one of the things I noticed very early in my relationship I came here about. She would tell me that I'm not prioritizing our relationship, I don't 'show up' and that I'm not  being there for her.

I would be absolutely baffled by this, because she was my number one priority. I would tell her that I'm thinking about her 85% of the time. I answered every call, every text, immediately. I would come over, pick her up, meet her anywhere at any time. I would offer to help her with anything at all she needed, support her on long phone calls or long texting sessions as she complained about her exhusband (red flag), she'd forward me his emails and texts, I'd read through them and support her and tell her how great she is, etc etc...literally I would do anything for her.

[Ozzie101]

Exactly. I feel like I am supportive in every way and to the extent I can be. I won’t do things I think are wrong or that aren’t “me” but I will love and support and stand by him — by my definition anyway.

I’m aware that I can’t fix the wound in him. And I can’t violate my values.

It just becomes difficult when he sounds so reasonable. That’s when I start to doubt. Or when he seems so hurt. But that’s FOG at play. Lately “I’m just really hurt” or “this really hurts my feelings” are favorite phrases. Or vague comments hinting at suicide (which he also admits he would never do).

[UBPDHelp]

Hi Ozzie,

I feel like I have absolutely no concept of normal anymore.

Remind me — how long have you been married? 

I have been for forever and I am isolated for sure.  In the moment, it was always to diffuse the situation, thinking it would pass. I thought after the heat of the moment, H would see he overreacted, but instead it gave him more time to think of reasons why this friend couldn’t be trusted, etc.  Keeping the peace for me means an extraordinary amount of second guessing everything and immense inner turmoil.

Your H sounds challenging and about where my H was 5-10 years ago.  It’s good that you are here and learning the tools and setting boundaries.  One thing I know (for me) is that it does not get better on its own and I wish I’d known some of the tools before things got this bad (currently dysregulating every few days).  I don’t have the mental stamina to ride the roller coaster much longer, but you have the opportunity to effect change and it seems you are having some success.

And you seem to have your moral compass intact, it’s just a matter of sticking to your boundaries and using the tools.  Will your H tell you specifically what action would be support?  It may help you see his POV and you could maybe find a way to do that while still maintaining your boundary. Or maybe you can then just tell him exactly what things you can and cannot do to support him. 

My H can never tell me what that one thing is.  He has a lot of magical one things.  One thing that I do that shows him I love him (coupled with I moved mountains for old bf (didn’t and have zero idea why he says it other than to control me) but the slightest ant hill for him and I don’t support him). The one thing that could happen on vacation that would have made it perfect but now the whole thing is ruined.  And, the one thing that ruined the ENTIRE thing is the restaurant ran out of something on the menu.  This I know is not normal.

We were watching an episode of MAFS the other day and the wife was telling her new H that she needed a specific example of what he needed.  He could not verbalize what that thing was. She got super frustrated and just kept saying she supported him but if he didn’t feel that way what EXACTLY was it that she did or didn’t do that made him feel unsupported. He just kept saying broad statements and she kept asking for something specific.  I don’t think this guy is BPD, but just illustrated the vague demand for support without a concrete example.  I kept saying, how can she know what he needs if he can’t verbalize it himself. Passive aggressive, but I was hoping my H would “see” it if it wasn’t directed at him.  Wishful thinking.

I think you’re doing great and I have faith that you can get to a good place with your H.  You seem to have a good handle on normal (your little voice is good!).  Keep up the good work!

[Ozzie101]

Another bad night. More crises at work after a week of better. To top it off, our water heater decided to go kaput. Because I’m in a new job with no vacation yet, it falls to H to deal with it.

I picked SS9 up from school (which SS doesn’t like — never says anything but goes monosyllabic and sometimes even cries quietly in the car), had him do his homework, fixed his dinner, boiled water so he could take a non-freezing bath, got him to bed. Throughout all this, H was on the phone to me blasting the church, various people there, my parents’ friend, my parents. Apparently he called my dad, who basically told him he was sorry but he couldn’t think of any way to help.

There are flaws in my family. They’re not outgoing or all that warm and open. Sometimes I wish they were. And I wish there wasn’t such a disconnect between H and them. Both mean well but their styles don’t mesh. H still gets upset at the idea they care more about me than him and SS. Narcissism? Some. Also, I think a byproduct of the hurt he feels over not having a really family relationship of his own.

H finally got home and it all continued with the usual litany. Along with accusations of “why is all this on me? Why isn’t it on you? Maybe you should get a second or third job to make up the difference.” Liberal mentions of divorce and getting back with one of his exes or how things were better and easier with them.

I just feel deflated. I know I love him. I know I put him first. I know I support him. He says he wants someone to run interference. To jump in front of him. How I’m supposed to do that at his work, I don’t know.

Anyway, he feels these things. I know I have tried and done my best but if he’s not feeling it, doesn’t that mean I’m failing somehow?

I feel like a failure. I’m living in a house with a husband who loves me but constantly complains that I don’t support him or love him or stand by him. A child I bend over backwards to care for (when his dad is off the rails) who barely tolerates my presence. Fear of the future. Learning a new job. This place is really the only place I can let loose. Can’t go to my family. Won’t make that mistake again. But at least they make me feel loved.

Sorry for the rant. I’m frustrated and tired. I can’t keep this up. Honestly, when he mentions divorce there’s part of me that screams “yes!” What holds me back is knowing that times of high stress and emotion are not good for big decisions. That and the FOG. And good times, when they come.

Now I sit in my office, trying not to burst out crying over a sweet text from my grandmother.

[empath]

I remember a conversation in which my h said that if I supported him, I would feel the same way that he did. The situation was that our pastor at the time had told him that he couldn't progress toward ordination because of some specific issues that the pastor saw in h's life (lots of instability and unwillingness to follow the church's previous direction). So, h was angry and wanted to change churches immediately. The problem was that I was the leader of a ministry, and I needed to leave the ministry in a place where it would continue. H literally told me that the church didn't see me as a leader, and while he was telling me this, one of my volunteers called me to ask a question about the ministry.

H has been telling me that I don't support him, love him, or communicate with him. In the past several years, he has been telling other people this, too, leading to them wanting to help him get a divorce from me. A couple of years ago, h had a "mental health crisis" and moved out, intending to divorce - until he found out that it cost a lot of money with a lawyer and he returned to a better mental state and was able to talk through the things he had made up in his head about me. I'm with you; big decisions like divorce are not good when one is experiencing high stress and emotions.

[ct21218]

Ozzie, he wants you to fill the bottomless pit of emptiness he feels.  It is not your job to do this and it really doesn't matter how much you attempt to, it will never be enough for him.  I had to set boundaries and spell out that I was not responsible for my ex's feelings and relationships with other people.  I cannot fix them for him and I refused to.  It's a losing battle if you try to placate him.

[Ozzie101]

You’re right, ct. and I know that. Thing is, he doesn’t. He just sees me as cold and callous and uncaring. I can’t help that. But it makes the whole situation even more difficult to deal with.

Plus, it sounds like he’s talking to people who give him the affirmation he wants (and who, according to him, can’t understand why I’m being thus way) — which makes me look even worse in his eyes.

[Cat Familiar]

You can spend endless hours trying to repair your image in his eyes, and it still won’t work.

Or you can be you and continue to do your best, regardless of the fabricated slander.

Trying to convince someone with a personality disorder that your actions and intentions are pure is a hopeless task.

[Ozzie101]

Too true. Why is it so hard for me to internalize it?

Partly because I’m a natural caretaker and fixer like so many here. It’s almost physically painful not to help. I’m much better now about seeing when I can or should but I still feel that pull of guilt.

[empath]

Have you read the book, Stop Caretaking? I read it a few years ago and did the online course that the author offers, too. It really helped me to look at my own life and understand the dynamics of my caretaking.

[Ozzie101]

I haven’t but I’ll look into that. Thank you for the rec!

[Cat Familiar]

What helped me in becoming a recovering, rather than active codependent, was the dawning realization that all my efforts to seek approval, agreement, accord were doomed to fail. Yet I kept trying harder but doing the same thing. Finally it occurred to me to pay attention and notice the results I was getting.

At first, not doing these habitual behaviors felt narcissistic, selfish, self-absorbed. Then it occurred to me that I was already accused of these things, so what was the difference whether I bent over backwards trying to convince him that I was a good partner?

The difference was in my self esteem. By placating, bribing, coddling, sucking up, I was humiliating myself and as a result, he was also treating my with disrespect.

When I quit treating myself disrespectfully, I no longer tolerated disrespect from him and he began valuing me more and began to treat me as an equal, rather than as someone who was subservient to him.

[Ozzie101]

Good point.

I have actually made some progress there, I think. Last night he kept bringing up his ex wife and an ex girlfriend. Lots of passive-aggressive comments about them showing more support, making more money, being easier, etc. At one point he got angry and said “you should be jumping over here begging and pleading with me!” I just sort of shrugged and said, “no. I’m not doing that.” He didn’t like that answer but I wasn’t going to play. Also told me he was going to spend the weekend with SS’s mom. I didn’t react at all. Said he’d called her and she was picking him up. It was a bluff, obviously.

Noticed a lot of narcissism last night.

So many red flags. So much more obvious now.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi Ozzie,

Sending hugs your way.

I’m sorry that your H is back to having trouble at work.  And, it’s weird how when you take a step back some of the “games” become so obvious.  Super hard to listen to even if you know it’s meant simply to get a reaction out of you.

Do you think if you sat with your H and tried to address just one “issue” and had him tell you what he sees as the options — and then wrote out those options and pros/cons of each to resolve with him, it would help? Obviously this is not something you would want to do every time he perceives an issue, but it’s almost like he does not know how to come up with a solution so he expects everyone else to do it for him. Maybe he learns some coping strategies.

Idk, my H is almost the reverse and tells everyone what they should do when he perceives they have an issue.  Forget it if you ask him his opinion on something you are trying to figure out. 

I think a sounding board on big issues is helpful.  Responsible for solving every problem is not.

As for your SS, how does H treat him?  Poor kid may feel lost.  How is his bio mom?  Is she stable?  Regardless, he has you and he needs you, even if he doesn’t know it (or maybe he does know it).  My suggestion is not to worry about what his feelings about you are.  Just continue to be that constant reliable, caring parent he needs.  Kids need stability and routine and boundaries.  They may push back, but they do appreciate them. Bless you for being that person for him!

And, maybe you can do a little something for him, just spur of the moment next time you pick him up.  Like, “I saw this cool hot wheels car and I know how much you like them, so I wanted you to have it.” Or, “I heard the ice cream shop has this new flavor I’ve been wanting to try.  Want to get a cone?”  Simple things not meant as bribery, but just relationship building.

Gee, Ozzie, I know how hard this is.  I think you’re doing great.  I’m sorry I don’t have great advice...I just feel so much of what you’re going through.

[Ozzie101]

Thanks!

Last night H and I were able to have a genuine conversation. One where he’s rational and says things like “I know you/your parents can’t do anything about this.” I told him I want to help as much as I can but especially when the info is bombarding me in a rage, I can’t even think. He thought he might email me during the day to tell me something that happened so I have time to think about it. I told him that might work and then if we’re able to calmly discuss and brainstorm, I might be a better sounding board. We’ll see if that works. He seems pretty anxious to try.

He’s great to SS and they have a very close relationship. SS has always been attached to his dad over anyone else. (Some enmeshment there in a minor level, I think, really.) Even if H is dysregulatjng and furious with me, he’ll be nice to SS. He’ll forget the practical stuff, though, which is why I’m the one feeding and moving the routine along on bad nights. They do happen with SS nearby sometimes and I hate that.

His mom seems stable and good to/with him and he likes being with her and her parents. Just too lenient. He’s very coddled over there and pretty much gets whatever he wants.

He’s a good kid, really, but he’s massively spoiled — which H and I do not play into.

I’ll keep your ideas in mind. Sometimes he’ll open up and get chatty with me and according to H he talks about me (in a good way) to H and Ex. I stay open and friendly and don’t let it bug me. He prefers his parents. That’s the way it’s supposed to be. If I’m lucky, some day he’ll realize and appreciate what role I played.

[UBPDHelp]

I’m so glad to hear it!  I feel sometimes just progress forward, even if they only remember some of it, is progress forward. Sounds like he is open to better communication.

I wish we had the same, but I am definitely in the mode of not making waves b/c H is simmering just beneath the surface. I do think it would be more his “normal” misbehavior if he wasn’t so stressed about the self-induced life changes. I don’t know if I’ll make it to see this resolved.

And, I’m incredibly happy to hear about SS.  There is a special place for people who so willingly love and care for children as you do.  Kudos to you for being a good role model for all involved!

Spoiling and leniency are pretty typical for kids after divorce.  But, glad to hear you don’t overindulge in your house. Kids may love the stuff and freedom, but deep down they want love and stability and the safety of rules.  Again, kudos to you!

Congrats on the progress!

[jaded7]

Another bad night. More crises at work after a week of better. To top it off, our water heater decided to go kaput. Because I’m in a new job with no vacation yet, it falls to H to deal with it.

I picked SS9 up from school (which SS doesn’t like — never says anything but goes monosyllabic and sometimes even cries quietly in the car), had him do his homework, fixed his dinner, boiled water so he could take a non-freezing bath, got him to bed. Throughout all this, H was on the phone to me blasting the church, various people there, my parents’ friend, my parents. Apparently he called my dad, who basically told him he was sorry but he couldn’t think of any way to help.

There are flaws in my family. They’re not outgoing or all that warm and open. Sometimes I wish they were. And I wish there wasn’t such a disconnect between H and them. Both mean well but their styles don’t mesh. H still gets upset at the idea they care more about me than him and SS. Narcissism? Some. Also, I think a byproduct of the hurt he feels over not having a really family relationship of his own.

H finally got home and it all continued with the usual litany. Along with accusations of “why is all this on me? Why isn’t it on you? Maybe you should get a second or third job to make up the difference.” Liberal mentions of divorce and getting back with one of his exes or how things were better and easier with them.

I just feel deflated. I know I love him. I know I put him first. I know I support him. He says he wants someone to run interference. To jump in front of him. How I’m supposed to do that at his work, I don’t know.

Anyway, he feels these things. I know I have tried and done my best but if he’s not feeling it, doesn’t that mean I’m failing somehow?

I feel like a failure. I’m living in a house with a husband who loves me but constantly complains that I don’t support him or love him or stand by him. A child I bend over backwards to care for (when his dad is off the rails) who barely tolerates my presence. Fear of the future. Learning a new job. This place is really the only place I can let loose. Can’t go to my family. Won’t make that mistake again. But at least they make me feel loved.

Sorry for the rant. I’m frustrated and tired. I can’t keep this up. Honestly, when he mentions divorce there’s part of me that screams “yes!” What holds me back is knowing that times of high stress and emotion are not good for big decisions. That and the FOG. And good times, when they come.

Now I sit in my office, trying not to burst out crying over a sweet text from my grandmother.

Oh Ozzie. You have been here for me, and I wish I could say something to help you in this circumstance. All I can say is I KNOW the feeling of knowing, deep in your heart, you love this person and they can't sense it or feel it in the way you try to make them feel. As we all know, it's frustrating and baffling, and it makes us feel like a failure. I feel like a failure, I know that.

But I know in my heart I'm a good person, and you are too. We can only do what we know in our hearts, we can't control other people's perceptions of what we offer or how we feel. We both know that, but it's still so hard.

[Ozzie101]

You’re so right, jaded. It’s hard. But so important for us to remind ourselves and each other.

[jaded7]

What helped me in becoming a recovering, rather than active codependent, was the dawning realization that all my efforts to seek approval, agreement, accord were doomed to fail. Yet I kept trying harder but doing the same thing. Finally it occurred to me to pay attention and notice the results I was getting.

At first, not doing these habitual behaviors felt narcissistic, selfish, self-absorbed. Then it occurred to me that I was already accused of these things, so what was the difference whether I bent over backwards trying to convince him that I was a good partner?

The difference was in my self esteem. By placating, bribing, coddling, sucking up, I was humiliating myself and as a result, he was also treating my with disrespect.

When I quit treating myself disrespectfully, I no longer tolerated disrespect from him and he began valuing me more and began to treat me as an equal, rather than as someone who was subservient to him.

Cat. This is a great post. I'm reading through it again and it makes so much sense. I gave and gave...stepped ever more carefully so as to not upset or 'make mad'...asked for less and less, tolerated more and more disrespect and emotional/verbal abuse and manipulation. All in hopes that I'd not lose her love.

This is codependence, as you noted. It's so weird, but I remember when I didn't care that much about her, in the early days of the relationship, and when she did something outrageous or mean, I just thought to myself "I'm done with this, I don't need this". The deeper I got in the relationship, the harder those words were to summon.

[Cat Familiar]

I remember when I didn't care that much about her, in the early days of the relationship, and when she did something outrageous or mean, I just thought to myself "I'm done with this, I don't need this". The deeper I got in the relationship, the harder those words were to summon.

This!

[Ozzie101]

In my relationship, he didn’t start showing these signs until we were married. I didn’t see his anger until several months in. Looking back, there were hints but not ones that would be obvious to anyone not in the know.

We had an ok weekend but his work is still a struggle. Now, we’re back to the weight problem. He obsesses about his weight, in what I think is an unhealthy way. Having met his bio family, it’s clear that he probably has a genetic predisposition to be bigger. Add to that his weight-obsessed adopted mom who criticized him when he put on weight in college and — whoo boy.

He’s at a normal weight for his height and body type — mostly eats healthy, exercises, etc.

He weighs himself multiple times a day then flips out over the fluctuations. Yesterday he bought a new one, making a total of three in our house. He’s also got doctor appointments because he’s convinced there’s something wrong. (And they can’t get him in right away, which prolongs the agony.) Maybe there is. I don’t know.

Anyway, his answer is just to eat one meal a day, if that. Of course, that makes him cranky and irritable and he has an even harder time regulating emotions — not his strong suit any day. There’s no rhyme or reason to it. He could go all day on 300 calories and go up a pound one day. The next, eat three squares and go down 6.

I feel awkward eating when other people aren’t. Feels thoughtless and rude. The fact that I’m naturally thin doesn’t help because anything I say or do around it sounds hypocritical or judgmental. Just my existence annoys him then.

I’m really tired of living and dying by the scale.