Coming Back Up For Air part 3

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Mod note: This thread was split from this discussion: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=343810.0

Side example for assistance.

Here is a little something that tends to repeat, sometimes a few a day.

We all had dinner.  We were discussing favorite vacations and what we like. It was a nice distraction. I did something a bit unmannerly (wasn’t paying attention and I was unmannerly, but to myself (think using wrong salad fork kind of thing).  H stopped mid sentence and called me out in front of the kids about it.

He constantly tells me he’s not my father (no kidding!) when I ask his opinion so it doubly stings to be treated like a child. If it had just been us, I would have said something but in the moment feel it would have ratcheted it up and then he would have belittled me more in front of kids, so I just let it go.

In normal circumstances, what would you recommend as a response?

How does that change under current circumstances?

It’s not a big deal so I don’t want to turn it into one, but it is one of those little things that piled together become big. Does that make sense?

I’ll probably be off replying until tonight but will be checking in if you all have time to toss your thoughts, it is appreciated.

Thank you, thank you!

[UBPDHelp]

Mod note: This thread was split from this discussion: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=343810.0

Side example for assistance.

Here is a little something that tends to repeat, sometimes a few a day.

We all had dinner.  We were discussing favorite vacations and what we like. It was a nice distraction. I did something a bit unmannerly (wasn’t paying attention and I was unmannerly, but to myself (think using wrong salad fork kind of thing).  H stopped mid sentence and called me out in front of the kids about it.

He constantly tells me he’s not my father (no kidding!) when I ask his opinion so it doubly stings to be treated like a child. If it had just been us, I would have said something but in the moment feel it would have ratcheted it up and then he would have belittled me more in front of kids, so I just let it go.

In normal circumstances, what would you recommend as a response?

How does that change under current circumstances?

It’s not a big deal so I don’t want to turn it into one, but it is one of those little things that piled together become big. Does that make sense?

I’ll probably be off replying until tonight but will be checking in if you all have time to toss your thoughts, it is appreciated.

Thank you, thank you!

[formflier]

Can you give us all the details on "unmannerly".

What exactly did you do and what exactly did he say...and how did you respond?

The details might matter. 

Even without knowing details, allowing another person to openly control you (vice ask in a "mannerly" way)...(yeah...I went there...couldn't help it)

I decided to be openly confrontational about open attempts at control.  We are at a much better place now it's been months since I've had to go there. 

Openly confrontational to FF is "are you proposing or imposing?" and then quietly waiting for an answer.

Might be best to cut my response on this one issue here.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

  I sit next to him much of the day but only muster few pleasant comments or discuss reality tv. Seems only space he can live in right now.
 

How long do you sit next to him?

My general comment on this is that if sitting around is no good for him, then show leadership and do something else...invite him along and don't react if he acts badly.

Basically...let him chase you...don't chase him.  If he wants to be around you for soothing...he can do what that takes (vice you running around trying to soothe him...or you sitting there hoping it is better for him)

Again..cutting responses to one issue/question at a time

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Then 2 1/2 weeks ago they shut all nonessential/schools down so coming up Thursday it will be 3 weeks he’s been home not working. Everyone else is working from home and I have for 15 years so we have a nice home office with everything needed. He doesn’t move off the couch.
 

Can you share more about the work he does/did?  A partner?  Some kind of self employed or contract employment is what it sounds like.

How long since you worked?  What did you do for the 15 years?  How long since you worked?

Is there any more income scheduled to show up soon (or has he gotten all his pay)?

What does he actually say is his plan? 

Does he pay bills or do you?  Or combination?

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

First,

Can you give us all the details on "unmannerly".

Without thinking, I used my finger to push something onto my fork. Not something I traditionally do, but I’m also under a bit of stress and kind of lost in my thoughts. It wasn’t a big deal so I didn’t feel like it required comment but also didn’t want to ratchet his response.

Now, today, he was commenting on my food. This doesn’t bother me but he HATES when people talk about what he’s eating or even if he is eating. If I ask him if he liked something it’s like 70/30 that he’ll flip on me that I was commenting on what he is eating.

So, when he was talking to my daughter, who was sitting between us about how I was eating my lunch, I looked at him and said “are you talking about my food?”  He said it didn’t matter because he wasn’t talking to me, but was doing it behind my back. I said you really think that matters.

Okay, so none of that was necessary, but this is where I trip up with setting boundary vs being bullied/belittled.

He’s just looking for little things to nitpick.

Do I ignore? Do I point out to him the hypocrisy?

I think this is the kind of thing where he has one expectation for himself and another for me.

Thoughts?

I’ll try to get to the others but it’s hard during the day.   

[formflier]

Without thinking, I used my finger to push something onto my fork. Not something I traditionally do, but I’m also under a bit of stress and kind of lost in my thoughts. It wasn’t a big deal so I didn’t feel like it required comment but also didn’t want to ratchet his response.
 

Hey..the details matter.

What did he actually say and what did you say/do in return?

Was everyone sitting at the table?  Is it "normal" for sitting at the table to have high standards for manners and use of spoons and forks?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

So, when he was talking to my daughter, who was sitting between us about how I was eating my lunch, I looked at him and said “are you talking about my food?”  He said it didn’t matter because he wasn’t talking to me, but was doing it behind my back. I said you really think that matters.
 

How often does this happen?

I'm reluctant to comment without knowing exactly what he said/commented.  Did your daughter respond?  If so what did she say.  How old is she?

I do feel comfortable saying that if you are going to raise an I think you should "keep it raised".  It doesn't appear he answered your question..it appears he dismissed your right to ask questions ("it doesn't matter" is a kissing cousin to "you don't matter").

I would suggest "Oh..my.  Please answer the question." 

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Hey..the details matter.

What did he actually say and what did you say/do in return?

Was everyone sitting at the table?  Is it "normal" for sitting at the table to have high standards for manners and use of spoons and forks?

He looked at me and said “what are you doing?  You’re a rube.”

I just said I was sorry, I wasn’t paying attention.   It was neither flippant or overly serious. More of a sorry, but this isn’t a big deal.

We try to have one meal as a family. Manners are expected such as would be normal at a family meal. NOT, salad fork vs dinner fork or where to place your napkin or knife when done. But use utensils when necessary, don’t talk with food in your mouth, etc.

It was more the chiding.  I feel like a hmm, wink and a nod reminder in front of kids would be more appropriate.

Let me just say, his tone and content were enough to have the older kids sit up straight and take note. Dinner ruined with everyone tense.

[UBPDHelp]

How long do you sit next to him?

My general comment on this is that if sitting around is no good for him, then show leadership and do something else...invite him along and don't react if he acts badly.

Basically...let him chase you...don't chase him.  If he wants to be around you for soothing...he can do what that takes (vice you running around trying to soothe him...or you sitting there hoping it is better for him)

Again..cutting responses to one issue/question at a time

It depends. Sometimes we watch a show together or with the family. I get up and do other things or read, sometimes there or outside. It’s my favorite room, the family room and there are different areas. But as noted in another thread a month or so ago, he listens to the TV very loudly, so we’re all “watching” it.

I keep asking him to take a walk but he doesn’t want to run into people — afraid of Coronavirus even though no one is out and we could keep our distance. Try to take a drive and he worries about a flat tire or something where we would be forced to interact. Can get him to the backyard sometimes or I just sit on the deck. Warmest winter on record but we had our second snow last week of the WHOLE season and it’s colder and rainier as soon as we’ve been inside.

Feel like the universe is trying to tell me something, but as you know, I’m not so quick at reading the signs!  

So, what should I change?

[UBPDHelp]

How often does this happen?

I'm reluctant to comment without knowing exactly what he said/commented.  Did your daughter respond?  If so what did she say.  How old is she?

I do feel comfortable saying that if you are going to raise an I think you should "keep it raised".  It doesn't appear he answered your question..it appears he dismissed your right to ask questions ("it doesn't matter" is a kissing cousin to "you don't matter").

I would suggest "Oh..my.  Please answer the question." 

We were eating pork tenderloin. I grew up with eating it with mustard, which he thinks is weird. Whatever.

He turns to my daughter and says “Moms from xxxx, she puts mustard on her pork tenderloin.”  He uses where I’m from as an insult. It’s not, but he’ll say it drawn out as if it’s derogatory (hence hillbilly trash that usually follows).

I looked at him and said “are you talking about my food?”

He said, “I wasn’t talking to you. I was talking behind you’re back so that doesn’t count.”

I said that’s not true.

He just contorted up his face because he knew I caught him in his hypocrisy — this is 25 years of not being able to make a single comment in what he’s eating.

Then I turned to my daughter and told her if she had two more pieces of pork, she could be done (she’d asked to be excused just prior to the exchange and he told her exactly that, to have two more bites).

He then looked at her and said she didn’t have to finish (she was glad) and picked up the bit of pork she had left and threw it across the room at the garbage (it missed) and then walked out of the kitchen.

I honestly don’t know what to do next. Ratchet it up over pork, under the stress?

It stinks.

I am all ears.  I know I now have a few points I can’t waver on — but how far to push it and what constitutes his getting it/giving in?  Or what result should I look for?

Help! 

Bless you for muddling through the murky nonsense!

[formflier]

So..to be clear.  You told your daughter to eat another couple pieces and he said she didn't have to and followed that up by taking the meat off her plate and tossing it across the room.

Do I have that right?

Do your kids normally have to finish their food or do they ask and get the list of what else they have to eat?  Has this ever been an issue between you and hubby before?

I'm getting some ideas here and I think I get the vibe.  My plan is to let the details stew for a day or two and also let others have a chance to chime in.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

So..to be clear.  You told your daughter to eat another couple pieces and he said she didn't have to and followed that up by taking the meat off her plate and tossing it across the room.

Do I have that right?

Do your kids normally have to finish their food or do they ask and get the list of what else they have to eat?  Has this ever been an issue between you and hubby before?

I'm getting some ideas here and I think I get the vibe.  My plan is to let the details stew for a day or two and also let others have a chance to chime in.

So, my youngest likes to eat some and then is hungry again in an hour. So, often we try to encourage her to eat a bit more. I NEVER threaten and H generally doesn’t either, but sometimes. He does like them to ask to be excused before they leave...they eat faster and less, so older folks may still be eating. So, it’s just instilling the courtesy.

But in this case  my D asked to be excused (with half her meal uneaten). H told her to have 2 more bites and then she could be excused. Immediately he leaned into her and said “mom grew up in xxx and she eats mustard on her pork.”

It was just hypocritical because, as I mentioned, no one can say a word about his food. He has been known to throw a bowl of ice cream out if I or someone asks him about it. I’m talking about this: “Oh, hey. I saw they had a new peanut butter ice cream and I know how much you love peanut butter. Let me know what you think.”  He may throw out the whole bowl at this point.

So, anyway, he starts telling D about me eating my pork and I looked at him and asked if he was talking about it...blah blah...and to change subject, I looked back at my daughter and repeated that she could be excused if she had two more bites. He picked up what she had, told her she didn’t have to have any more (she was happy) and he threw it across the room (near trash) and walked out.

I mean I see that maybe he felt invalidated but he was being hypocritical and insulting to me. So where do I live in this world?

But, this is not an occurrence that has happened much before. Maybe a handful of times and only similarly. 

Maybe it’s a failure on my ability. I just don’t know if I have the brain power or energy to be insulted and avoid invalidating him while I stand up for myself. Maybe that’s the problem. Maybe I’m destined to be alone. Idk.

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi UBPDHelp,

What do you think would have happened if you had simply said "Yep, I like mustard with pork."

My thoughts are that you are hypersensitive to his comments because of his extreme and relentless criticism of you. Please know that I understand that because I lived with that for seven years, and there were times where I felt that every comment from my ex just rubbed my raw nerves and put me in automatic defense mode.

Since you are kind of stuck in this self isolation situation with him, perhaps it would help you (for your own sanity) to focus on how you can become more secure in your own identity (and not how he defines you).

Making comments about you being a "hillbilly" because of where you are from is extremely hurtful, and I know that you probably bristle at any hint of it because he verbally hits you over the head with these kind of insults that put you in an inferior position so he can feel superior. If you can work on your own self-image and become secure in the knowledge that what he says is just blather and untrue, it can help to take the sting out of his words and also present the image to your children that your H can't beat you down with words.

"Mom was raised in xxx so she likes mustard on her pork".

"Yes, I certainly do."

Can you see how your child might pick up on the confidence in that statement?

Can you see how that statement deprives him of the goal of making you feel inferior?

[formflier]

I don't accept "hillbilly" as a derogatory term, even though I accept that some people use it that way.

I grew up running all over the "hollers" and "coves" of the gorgeous Appalachian mountains and still have my first car.  A 1970 muscle car with oversized tires in the rear and really loud dual exhaust!

My first girlfriends Dad was a moonshiner and when I came back to the area as a County Manager after the Navy the Sheriff's department was still chasing moonshiners...kinda...I mean if you caught them all a lot of people would be pissed...

The weird thing is when I came back there were several legal stills and the other guys could be legal, but that would mean trusting government...nahh...not a good idea.

Anyway...add me as an emphatic 2nd vote to OWN IT!   

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Hi UBPDHelp,

What do you think would have happened if you had simply said "Yep, I like mustard with pork."

My thoughts are that you are hypersensitive to his comments because of his extreme and relentless criticism of you. Please know that I understand that because I lived with that for seven years, and there were times where I felt that every comment from my ex just rubbed my raw nerves and put me in automatic defense mode.

Since you are kind of stuck in this self isolation situation with him, perhaps it would help you (for your own sanity) to focus on how you can become more secure in your own identity (and not how he defines you).

Making comments about you being a "hillbilly" because of where you are from is extremely hurtful, and I know that you probably bristle at any hint of it because he verbally hits you over the head with these kind of insults that put you in an inferior position so he can feel superior. If you can work on your own self-image and become secure in the knowledge that what he says is just blather and untrue, it can help to take the sting out of his words and also present the image to your children that your H can't beat you down with words.

"Mom was raised in xxx so she likes mustard on her pork".

"Yes, I certainly do."

Can you see how your child might pick up on the confidence in that statement?

Can you see how that statement deprives him of the goal of making you feel inferior?

Yes, I Am Redeemed, I do bristle because I know what he means. I have 500+ word text messages laying out his explicit negative connotations for me.

So, after years, I mostly don’t let it bother me. In fact, a couple of years ago when his stress increased = more frequent and bigger dysregulations, and he would fling it as an insult, I would remind myself that I was proud of who I was and where I came from so in my head the insult about my upbringing would be a compliment, regardless of his intent. Sometimes the onslaught of nasty is too great and I do get bothered. How much of our communication do I have to brush off?  I’m guessing it tips over 50% these days.

BUT (sorry, I know that’s a big invalidator), it wasn’t so much the underlying insult that bothered me, it was the hypocrisy of him commenting on what I was eating.

His belief that no one should comment on what anyone else was eating, how much they were eating, etc., has been a long recurring issue for him. He gets so angry if anyone says a word about what he’s eating. And these are never derogatory comments, but more, so what did you think of that new recipe, did you like the bbq sauce kind of things.

Soo, that was what made me ask him if he was talking about what I was eating. Just the hypocrisy.

So two things — first, maybe it still wasn’t worthy to defend myself. Idk, what do you think?  These nuances certainly confuse me, because in some ways it’s little and not necessary to escalate and other times it feels if I keep letting him get away with stuff, he’ll never stop. Love your thoughts.

Second, regardless of all of this, it is a good point that I should do a better job not being so sensitive.  The cloaked insults are still a whole lot better than the previous rants.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and insight.

[UBPDHelp]

I don't accept "hillbilly" as a derogatory term, even though I accept that some people use it that way.

I grew up running all over the "hollers" and "coves" of the gorgeous Appalachian mountains and still have my first car.  A 1970 muscle car with oversized tires in the rear and really loud dual exhaust!

My first girlfriends Dad was a moonshiner and when I came back to the area as a County Manager after the Navy the Sheriff's department was still chasing moonshiners...kinda...I mean if you caught them all a lot of people would be pissed...

The weird thing is when I came back there were several legal stills and the other guys could be legal, but that would mean trusting government...nahh...not a good idea.

Anyway...add me as an emphatic 2nd vote to OWN IT!  

Haha, FF.

Nor do I, but H 100% means it as an insult. I grew up in a smaller town in the west, and he on the east coast. In his mind, the west is still wild and the east coast is the center of culture and the world. It certainly has its benefits, but he hasn’t taken the time to embrace where I’m from. He feels threatened by it...I’m sure you can figure out why.

The funny thing is (not haha funny, I’m learning that this must be more of a regional expression and other regions actually think it’s a joke  ), my parents were educated and traveled and had careers, despite being from the Wild West. H’s family did not go to college and his dad (left) worked two menial part time jobs and his mother was also a blue collar laborer.

He’s called my parents failures for not teaching me morals and uneducated rubes. I have never once said a derogatory thing about his parents lack of education or career. I don’t give two hoots about that, character is the measure of a man, not their education, pedigree or career.  

H is very concerned with perception and in many ways he’s failed at living up to what he thought he should. I am the obvious scapegoat for his lot in life.

Thank you for sharing your story. The ‘70s muscle car sounds amazing, as does the moonshine (a bit terrifying from what I’ve heard about how strong it is, though!).

Deep breath, step back and revisit being proud of who I am.

Any suggestions — should I start stating that or simply be that when he attempts to insult?

As always, so appreciate your guidance!

[I Am Redeemed]

You have a lot of insight, UBPDHelp. I am hoping you can tap into that to help you to protect yourself from all this negativity.

So if I am understanding correctly, it is the double standard that triggers you more than the insults about where you are from? I get that. Boy, that used to be so maddening to me. The hypocrisy was so blatant, and I felt so angry that my ex seemed to think he was entitled to behave in ways that he wouldn't tolerate from me (or others).

I still think the simple statement "Yes, I like mustard on pork" would suffice in this situation. Someone else may have a better suggestion. I think perhaps it would come down to what you think is more important- trying to get him to see and acknowledge his hypocrisy, and what positive result could come from that (i.e., would that do any good, or would it escalate the conflict) or reducing the impact his behavior has on you. Is he likely to recognize that his double standards are unfair, be repentant, and change? Or is he likely to keep doing this, which means the only thing you can control is how you respond when you observe him engaging in behavior that is a double standard?

Does he "get away with it" if you don't confront him with it? That depends largely on the ability he has to impact you negatively with his behavior, and that impact can, to some extent, be mitigated by the choices you make.

It may help you to evaluate your expectations of him in this relationship. Expecting him to see the unfairness of his behavior which will prompt him to change is not realistic. Acceptance of this can go a long way towards mitigating the resentment that you feel when expectations are not met. Once you can do that, you can respond in the moment with less reactivity to emotional triggers so that the situation is not as volatile.

Does that make sense?

[Cat Familiar]

BUT (sorry, I know that’s a big invalidator), it wasn’t so much the underlying insult that bothered me, it was the hypocrisy of him commenting on what I was eating.

Trying to get a pwBPD to acknowledge their hypocrisy is a waste of time. They believe that the rules don’t apply to them, particularly if there’s an NPD component, which your husband certainly seems to have.

So two things — first, maybe it still wasn’t worthy to defend myself. Idk, what do you think?  These nuances certainly confuse me, because in some ways it’s little and not necessary to escalate and other times it feels if I keep letting him get away with stuff, he’ll never stop.

It would be nice if you could “keep him from getting away with stuff” but it ain’t gonna happen. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink applies here. Any epiphany he has must be self initiated. If you try to show him, he will do his darndest not to understand, partipate, or be swayed.

Second, regardless of all of this, it is a good point that I should do a better job not being so sensitive.

Having a thick skin is necessary in a relationship with a pwBPD.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi I Am Redeemed,

Yes, in this case it is the hypocrisy that made me respond by pointing out just that, his hypocrisy.  Truth is he is hypocritical in a hundred ways, but most are so inflammatory that I don’t call him out. To me, it feels like a small thing, so on the one hand why call him out? On the other, why did he do it, especially when he has a 25 year history of having his feathers ruffled if anyone, especially me, says a peep about his food.

That said, I generally just internalize his hypocrisy and view it as his failure, not mine.

I appreciate your suggestion on a better response.

Does he "get away with it" if you don't confront him with it? That depends largely on the ability he has to impact you negatively with his behavior, and that impact can, to some extent, be mitigated by the choices you make.

Agree, but I struggle with why I am always the one who has to not let his behavior impact me.  The truth is I feel duped by his ability to function in the world as long as he gets his way. As soon as he is stressed or doesn’t get his way, he is a dysfunctional pile of goo who lashes out with pure venom and vile untruths. But, as you know, can be fun and charming when not dysregulated.

Determining when enough is enough is a really big part of what I’m struggling with. And, the feeling that I have to constantly live on edge — is it because I’m failing at the tools?  Do I have the energy to keep trying? Can I continue to absorb the negativity when it’s impacting my health?

I am in no way suggesting he is all to blame and not being underhanded in saying my sole failure was not knowing what I was dealing with. He clearly is immensely difficult. But I am not perfect. Difference, I know people make mistakes and I try to see things through others eyes. He does not.

It may help you to evaluate your expectations of him in this relationship. Expecting him to see the unfairness of his behavior which will prompt him to change is not realistic. Acceptance of this can go a long way towards mitigating the resentment that you feel when expectations are not met. Once you can do that, you can respond in the moment with less reactivity to emotional triggers so that the situation is not as volatile.

I do hear this.  My expectations are really kindness, compassion and respect. I am not saying that 100% of the time, but definitely more than not. Mutual respect.

I’m going to take a step back and think this through for a bit and see if I can find a tolerable, livable space.

One thing that I think I need is a stockpile of responses to these types of little attacks. I’m not quick on my feet and start running pros and cons of different responses. And, while these little things seem like they are easy to brush off, in some ways they feel more insidious.  He could just as easily keep his mouth shut.

Thank you so much for your help.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi Cat,

Thank you for your input.

Trying to get a pwBPD to acknowledge their hypocrisy is a waste of time. They believe that the rules don’t apply to them, particularly if there’s an NPD component, which your husband certainly seems to have.

Okay!  I agree. Honestly he had two self awareness moments this year. He got there on his own and it was SHOCKING and although neither were anything to do with me, I was hopeful that he might eventually see the light. Short lived. I am painted black right now (and have been for very long time) and he is only tolerating me while we’re forced inside.

It would be nice if you could “keep him from getting away with stuff” but it ain’t gonna happen. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink applies here. Any epiphany he has must be self initiated. If you try to show him, he will do his darndest not to understand, partipate, or be swayed.

Thank you. Even before I found all of you wonderful people, I felt he was incapable of change. It’s hard to understand how he was so happy (or pretended to be) in the beginning and mostly for a very long time, but when life’s stresses added up, I became the face of what was wrong. I cannot get out of that no matter how hard (or little) I try. It’s coming to terms with what I’m willing to live with and what I’m not.

All of this feels a bit more daunting under all the uncertainty today. I have been looking for a new job for a couple of months and got through my second interview and on to the final CEO interview, which they’ve asked to postpone until things calm down. I suspect this opportunity will soon disappear as more and more people are out of work. So, for now, I wait. Financial independence is a barrier and looking back believe is one reason I have put up with so much.

So, my main goal now (probably unrealistic rn) and after pandemic is to secure gainful employment. It also provides a distraction. 

Having a thick skin is necessary in a relationship with a pwBPD.

So true!

Thank you again for your insight.

[babyducks]

some really wonderful things already posted in this thread.      I Am Redeemed and Cat added a lot of good points.     Here is my take.

Do I ignore?

No you don't ignore.   but you are 100% correct there is nuance involved.    Lots of nuances.   For me I would say, ignoring is a way to stuff my feelings and I don't need to do anymore of that.     I do believe that sometimes acts of silence can be protection against psychological violence.   I also believe that I should have boundaries around listening and participating in demeaning and degrading conversations.

Do I point out to him the hypocrisy?

No.     Calling him out is different than protecting your emotional and mental peace and contentment.    One is assertive, the other punitive.    I Am Redeemed nailed it when she said :

what positive result could come from that (i.e., would that do any good, or would it escalate the conflict) or reducing the impact his behavior has on you. Is he likely to recognize that his double standards are unfair, be repentant, and change? Or is he likely to keep doing this,

I think you can still establish boundaries,... in the situation you describe,... I would have pushed back a little,   mildly...    something like "name calling is inappropriate"... and then I would have disengaged.     you want to avoid the cycle of conflict... and the drama triangle.     
 

He looked at me and said “what are you doing?  You’re a rube.”

I just said I was sorry, I wasn’t paying attention.   It was neither flippant or overly serious. More of a sorry, but this isn’t a big deal.

what's your thinking here?    are you really sorry?   or is this an appeasement?   I would have pushed back here too,... just a little,... mildly... something like "let's both mind our manners at the table".    and then disengage... you don't want to be embroiled in a long argument.

as I read your posts I can't help but wonder ... is there some problem with food in both of your Families of Origin?   Did he grow up with a lot of food insecurity?    Is food a hot button issue for some reason?     my Ex was often abandoned as a child by a mother who would leave a box of Wheaties for 3 kids and then disappear for a couple of days.    do you think there is more going on with his food issues than the current shelter in place stress?


can we back up to this for a minute?

I keep asking him to take a walk but he doesn’t want to run into people — afraid of Coronavirus even though no one is out and we could keep our distance. Try to take a drive and he worries about a flat tire or something where we would be forced to interact. Can get him to the backyard sometimes or I just sit on the deck.

when he doesn't want to go for a walk do you go without him?   I think you should go without him.    I want to encourage you to make decisions that are independent of what he does, or doesn't do.    To not live your life based on what he wants or doesn't want.

I do hear this.  My expectations are really kindness, compassion and respect. I am not saying that 100% of the time, but definitely more than not. Mutual respect.

I think Redeemed's point is ... what are your expectations of what your husband is capable of.     Is he capable of kindness, compassion and respect in a intimate relationship?   How often is capable of it?

'ducks

[formflier]

I also have wondered if "food issues" are present now from the past.

Dysfunction exists on a spectrum.  My Mom was raised after 6 years old by her Mom and extended family of aunts and uncles.  Her Father passed away when she was 6.

Money and food were constant issues and I believe influence the way my Mom (even today at 80) looks at food.  

Yes I'm aware that "Grandma's" typically push food and have well stocked pantries.  I've been exposed to enough variety that I see my Mom's behavior as "several levels above" normal.  

No..I don't try to change it.  I am aware of it and it influences my conversational/relationship choices.

Anyway, back to your situation UBPDHelp.  This is likely not something to "fix" but to "understand" and then make reasonable allowances for...all with the goal of "reducing the temperature".

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Hi BabyDucks,

No.     Calling him out is different than protecting your emotional and mental peace and contentment.    One is assertive, the other punitive.    I Am Redeemed nailed it when she said :
Excerpt
what positive result could come from that (i.e., would that do any good, or would it escalate the conflict) or reducing the impact his behavior has on you. Is he likely to recognize that his double standards are unfair, be repentant, and change? Or is he likely to keep doing this,

I think you can still establish boundaries,... in the situation you describe,... I would have pushed back a little,   mildly...    something like "name calling is inappropriate"... and then I would have disengaged.     you want to avoid the cycle of conflict... and the drama triangle.

I like this response. Disengaging is hard when we’re all at the table. He agitates at any pushback so I am slightly concerned he would continue with more.

Then what response?

Name calling is inappropriate

H: you can’t tell me what to do, you rube

Me: No, I can’t. But I can tell you what I’m willing to listen to. Name calling is not something I am willing to listen to.

Does that work?  He might keep going.  Then do I leave the table?  Meanwhile the kids are sitting there. He may storm off. Hard to say.

He looked at me and said “what are you doing?  You’re a rube.”

I just said I was sorry, I wasn’t paying attention.   It was neither flippant or overly serious. More of a sorry, but this isn’t a big deal.

what's your thinking here?    are you really sorry?   or is this an appeasement?   I would have pushed back here too,... just a little,... mildly... something like "let's both mind our manners at the table".    and then disengage... you don't want to be embroiled in a long argument.

Knee jerk apology.  I was sorry for being unmannerly (as sorry as one would be) but realize that he may have thought I was sorry for being a rube, which I am not (a rube or sorry if I were  ).

Love the response that we both mind our manners.  He may bristle at that because he believes he is entitled to point out my finger push.

Want an appropriate response without escalation. This is good and definitely worth a try.

as I read your posts I can't help but wonder ... is there some problem with food in both of your Families of Origin?   Did he grow up with a lot of food insecurity?    Is food a hot button issue for some reason?     my Ex was often abandoned as a child by a mother who would leave a box of Wheaties for 3 kids and then disappear for a couple of days.    do you think there is more going on with his food issues than the current shelter in place stress?

It’s a good question and not one I’ve thought of.  My grandparents grew up during the Great Depression so my parents grew up being told to clean their plates.  My parents were the same with us but more so to eat what you take.  You can always have more, but don’t take more than you can eat (within reason). It was NOT punitive, but just awareness and I never felt threatened. My parents both had decent careers and I did not worry about food/clothes/shelter.

I am not aware of my H having any of that either. His family is all about abundance and over sharing. Probably why me “stretching” food last week set him off. Not something I do regularly (at least verbalized) so I thought it was stress about Pandemic, but maybe it was food uncertainty.

That said, he has never indicated they were ever food insecure. When his dad left, H was grown, but his siblings were still at home. His mom went off the rails and kind of did her own thing. We took on much responsibility for a few years making sure there was food, attention and presents, etc.  His mom didn’t abandon, but was definitely emotionally unavailable and concerned with her own needs. She is “recovered” now.

His food thing has never been about enough. It’s just simply to not ever say anything about someone’s food, especially his. BUT, aha, it never occurred to me that there may have been much discussion around this for him as a kid.  This is a definite possibility and I appreciate you bringing that option to light. May reframe my thoughts on this. Thank you.

when he doesn't want to go for a walk do you go without him?   I think you should go without him.    I want to encourage you to make decisions that are independent of what he does, or doesn't do.    To not live your life based on what he wants or doesn't want.

I agree and FormFlier has been a HUGE proponent of exactly this and I completely see the light in this and am excited by it.

The thing is, right now he is so afraid of the Coronavirus that he sees being outside for a walk as a THREAT to our health and safety. If I go, then I open up to relentless criticism that I have potentially exposed everyone to it. So, with us all holed up, I don’t want to add this to the mix — both my dealing with his comments OR the stress it will cause him. For now, the patio and backyard provide a reprieve when the weather is good.

I think Redeemed's point is ... what are your expectations of what your husband is capable of.     Is he capable of kindness, compassion and respect in a intimate relationship?   How often is capable of it?

Got it.  He is capable of these things on occasion. It feels like, when it’s 72 degrees, with the earth tipped at precisely 23.5 degrees, the birds are chirping, and he is entirely getting his way sprinkled with some unknown criteria. Then, he will be kind.

Other than that, I would say no. And I venture to say there is ZERO respect. This is most likely in large part to my own behavior and to not knowing about BPD for 25+ years of our r/s.

Is it salvageable?  Not looking good, imo.

Thank you for the help and guiding me to new insights!

[UBPDHelp]

Hi FF,

Thank you.

Anyway, back to your situation UBPDHelp.  This is likely not something to "fix" but to "understand" and then make reasonable allowances for...all with the goal of "reducing the temperature".

I agree.  As I mentioned, he has never told me this was an issue for him growing up and it never occurred to me (geesh, I’m thick), but it does make sense.

And, I mostly stay off ever talking about his food. Bad move to call him out when he talked about mine, even if he was being condescending. This is an easy one to refrain from.

Thanks!

[formflier]

He agitates at any pushback so I am slightly concerned he would continue with more.

Then what response?

Of course..big picture first.  Don't craft your response based on what he "is likely" to do (or you fear he will do).   Do what is wise and let the chips fall.   Lots of what we are trying to do here is build up your "wisdom".


 

Me: No, I can’t. But I can tell you what I’m willing to listen to. Name calling is not something I am willing to listen to.

Way too many words...way to much "ammo" being laid on the table.

Think of each word as a "potential bullet".

What if  "Manners are important." ?

Or..maybe some validation  "Stress has me lost in thought.  Let's all mind our manners."

The further you can stay away from suggesting he did something wrong, the better.  However you can see that the issue of "something wrong" has been put on the table.  He can grab it or he can let it go.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

  even if he was being condescending. 

Maybe..maybe not.  It's unlikely he had an intentional thought here. 

He was doing what he does (which I hope you can see is not well thought through).

Much better for you to "see and think"  something like this...

"Hmm...he's tossing out what looks like "bait".  What is a healthy response."

Step 1:  don't take bait.
Step 2:  Can I respond in a way that is helpful to everyone.


Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Maybe..maybe not.  It's unlikely he had an intentional thought here. 

He was doing what he does (which I hope you can see is not well thought through).

Much better for you to "see and think"  something like this...

"Hmm...he's tossing out what looks like "bait".  What is a healthy response."

Step 1:  don't take bait.
Step 2:  Can I respond in a way that is helpful to everyone.

You’re right of course. I really don’t consider that he’s not thinking through, but makes sense as his bait/rages are all the same regardless of what “offense” has been committed.

Thank you for showing me the alternative!

I wish he was 1/100th of your patience!  Thank you.

[babyducks]

Name calling is inappropriate

H: you can’t tell me what to do, you rube

Me: No, I can’t. But I can tell you what I’m willing to listen to. Name calling is not something I am willing to listen to.

I'm with FF.  way too many words here.  simple.  simple.  simple.  don't engage with a direct response.   deflect into more generic vein.    Name calling is not something I engage with.    

I am not aware of my H having any of that either. His family is all about abundance and over sharing.

His food thing has never been about enough. It’s just simply to not ever say anything about someone’s food, especially his. BUT, aha, it never occurred to me that there may have been much discussion around this for him as a kid.  

He is coming across as very food aggressive.    food often equates to love in many families.    in a way he reminds me of dogs who are food aggressive after abuse.    

[UBPDHelp]

Of course..big picture first.  Don't craft your response based on what he "is likely" to do (or you fear he will do).   Do what is wise and let the chips fall.   Lots of what we are trying to do here is build up your "wisdom".

Okay, good point.

Way too many words...way to much "ammo" being laid on the table.

Think of each word as a "potential bullet".

What if  "Manners are important." ?

Or..maybe some validation  "Stress has me lost in thought.  Let's all mind our manners."

The further you can stay away from suggesting he did something wrong, the better.  However you can see that the issue of "something wrong" has been put on the table.  He can grab it or he can let it go.

This makes sense. I will try changing my response and expectations.

Thank you. Going to ponder all of this for a while.

[UBPDHelp]

Hi BabyDucks,

He is coming across as very food aggressive.    food often equates to love in many families.    in a way he reminds me of dogs who are food aggressive after abuse.   

Interesting. I had not considered any of this.

I think it may equate more to love to me, or I assumed so. I enjoy cooking and enjoy trying new things and sharing with family and friends. To feed my children feels important and making something I think H would enjoy feels loving. 

So I never considered, but is my enjoyment of cooking/sharing creating a big issue for him? Is it why he can’t say what he wants for dinner? He’s been better with binary options as you previously suggested but not problem solving bigger picture ideas (like what to eat until next grocery store run and what current necessities are or forecasting based on pandemic).

I can just handle this and also stop food talk. Give option 1 and option 2. But so help me if he complains we have the wrong ice cream again...JK.

Thank you.  You have given me a lot to think about!

[babyducks]

So I never considered, but is my enjoyment of cooking/sharing creating a big issue for him? Is it why he can’t say what he wants for dinner? He’s been better with binary options as you previously suggested but not problem solving bigger picture ideas (like what to eat until next grocery store run and what current necessities are or forecasting based on pandemic).

I would suspect that he can't say what he wants for dinner because of diminished executive function, so common in this disorder.    that's why the binary options,.. either stew or spaghetti work better.

in my family there are some slightly abnormal food issues.   long back story.   not about amounts or availability.    more about how it was presented and distributed.        he seems more aggressive and adversarial at the dinner table.    I wonder if he has internalized that as a place of discord.   

it's been a real pleasure to converse with you UBH... even remotely.    I've enjoyed the conversation

'ducks

[I Am Redeemed]

I would suspect that he can't say what he wants for dinner because of diminished executive function, so common in this disorder.    that's why the binary options,.. either stew or spaghetti work better.

I agree with this. I would also add that other factors could include the lack of emotional maturity that is necessary to make adult decisions such as meal planning, and also the expectation that "love" means anticipating and meeting his needs/wants without him having to specify what they are.

"If you love me, you will know what I want/need and I wouldn't have to say it."

My ex did this. He did not want to be asked what he wanted for dinner. He expected me to take on the sole responsibility of meal planning and cooking, yet he also expected me to read his mind and make meals that he not only liked, but was "in the mood for". If I could not do this (which I couldn't, nobody can do that) he saw it as evidence that a) I didn't love him, b) I must be thinking about somebody else which was distracting me from figuring out his wants/needs, c) I was selfish and cared about no one but myself.

[formflier]

Perhaps one way to look at this is staying close to "neutral" is a good thing.

If you can get an idea of where he is at, be between him and "neutral" or zero.

If he is happy and giving you a 5 (on the 1-10 scale), you can give him happy back at a 2/3.

If he is happy and you are "mad"...that could be invalidating...vice versa as well.

So, if you aren't able to figure it out...pick neutral (vice getting "happiness" from cooking).

Staying "between" his position and neutral (if you can figure it out) can be helpful.

You have an awful lot of information we have dumped on you, let it marinate on your future plans and I bet you find some new "perspectives".

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

Thank you all.

I am sorry to take a u-turn, this may be a new thread.

I am shaking.

He finally came down. I said hello and trying to come from a better place of understanding, I just put my hand on his shoulder. He writhed away as if I poured acid on him. He was like don’t do that. This is over.

I did terribly because he’s been in his own world so caught off guard that we were back at this.

He’s like we’re getting divorced and we’re over.

I asked one time for him to stop.  He didn’t so I left the room.

I sat in the family room and continued to watch my show. He followed and demanded the remote. I said I was watching my show but when it was done we could watch something else. He demanded it and I said no, I am watching this. He took another remote and turned just the tv off.  Then said never mind, turned it back on, threw his coffee all over the couch and wall, walked to other side of the room and broke a decoration. It was his so, oh well. 

Then he stormed back to our room.

What now?

I didn’t mean to escalate it. I really didn’t. I am so bad at this.

I did not think it was unreasonable to finish the show I was watching (like 20 mins) BUT I did say I wouldn’t make this boundary during pandemic, but I also felt that he was just being mean again and so why do I have to anything just because he wants me too if he’s leaving?

I feel like I’ve failed, again.

[formflier]

The "fight" is over...focus on self care.  Take a walk in your back yard. 

When you walk I want you to take long slow strides and match your breathing to the strides.  (I used to think this was BS, my psychologist insisted and...well...it works for me)

Stay away from catastrophizing!    Lean into deep breathing.

The world will look different in an hour.

Best,

FF

[UBPDHelp]

The "fight" is over...focus on self care.  Take a walk in your back yard. 

When you walk I want you to take long slow strides and match your breathing to the strides.  (I used to think this was BS, my psychologist insisted and...well...it works for me)

Stay away from catastrophizing!    Lean into deep breathing.

The world will look different in an hour.

I am disengaged and into self care and protecting the kids who see the evidence.

I honestly want the world to look different.

Hugs to you for the calm within the storm.