Urgent -- kids' mom wants to suspend PT because of virus fears

[kells76]

Well, of all of us here, I guess we're the first ones it happened to? Could really use your guys' help.

Just got an email from the kids' mom:

"So I spoke with the [city] Pediatrics regarding the girls' illness this weekend. They are starting to look a lot better today and both have been fever free for the last 12 hrs.
Due to the shortage of Covid 19 tests in the State of [state] the Pediatrician is only testing kids who's symptoms are not improving over 2-4 days but they do recommend that you self quarantine for 14 days following viral illness such as this for the dual purpose of lowering the risk of spreading the virus if it was covid 19 they had as well as keeping them from a higher risk of contracting Covid 19 while their immune systems are weaker and recovering from whatever virus they do have if it was not Covid 19.
Because we have all been exposed they recommend we all self quarantine until we are symptom free as well or have passed the 14 day window of incubation. [Stepdad] has taken a leave for the next 14 days so as not to risk exposing them or the public. 
It is my understanding that both you and [kells76] work in public still. If you are capable of taking the next 14 days off it seems like the most responsible thing to do in not opening up the girls' to potentially being exposed. If this is not realistic for you and [kells76] I'd like to hold off on visits until they have been healthy and symptom free for 14 days. We are working with friends/family to have groceries dropped off and will not be seeing anyone at all for the duration of these 2 weeks.
If you have other ideas or suggestions let me know. I know it is a strange time and I am really trying to do my best to determine what is best to lower their risk of contracting a secondary illness that could be much worse than what they currently have as well as recognize the responsibility to not unduly expose people who are in much more fragile health positions than we are."

DH doesn't have PTO. If he doesn't work, he doesn't get paid.

What are your guys thoughts on this? DH realllllyyyyy wants to tell her that she has no right to do this. She will lose it if the words "court" or "parenting plan" are mentioned.

Help...

[worriedStepmom]

We voluntarily paused visitation between my biokids and their dad because his wife is a nurse and all four parents agreed we don't want to expose the kids if she is carrying the virus.  We're using videochat, and occasionally he is going to come to our house and sit on one side of the driveway, with the kids on the other, so they can see each other and chat.  He'll make up his time this summer.

SD was running a low-grade fever for a week.  We told her mom and gave her a choice about whether to take SD for her visitation or reschedule for when the fever was gone.  (SD's elderly grandmother lives with mom and is at risk.)  Mom chose to reschedule.

I don't think your H's ex is being unreasonable.  If your H agrees to relinquish this visit, he needs it in writing that she agrees he can make it up on X dates, and there needs to be some other way for him to see or talk to the kids.

[kells76]

On the one hand, I get the "makeup time in writing" idea. My concern is that Mom will be empowered to (a) say "of course I agree with the makeup time, but what can I do? SD11 doesn't want to go, she feels unsafe" and (b) that Mom will use this as precedent for any future time that the kids are sick to deny visitation: "you had no problem with this before".

It is hard to want to give at all on this one. DH only works with ~6 other people in a huge warehouse type space. I work in a pretty sterile lab (gloves, lab coats, the works). It's like she's setting up a lose lose situation: "stop working because I say so and then you can see the kids, or keep your job and don't see the kids". Plus Stepdad will now be home 24/7 for 2 weeks and he feeds the dysfunction and emotional manipulation of the kids pretty strongly.

I wouldn't be surprised if mom has already set this up to scare the kids: "it isn't safe to go back and forth, you'll be in danger or putting loved ones in danger, Dad just doesn't care as much as us".

I am just so reticent to want to validate her emotional dysfunction that has seized on corona (note, nobody in the 2 houses has been tested for it) to go right back to her manipulation.

SD14 was kind of teary with us a couple of weeks ago, worrying that she wouldn't get to see DH because of it. We reassured her at the time that the 2 houses were basically 1 household unit germ-wise because of how they went back and forth, and that we would always find a way to see the kids.

I'm just really worked up about this right now. DH has a call in to our former L (it's been 4 years) to better understand our options. I'm so all over the place. Did at least talk DH down from sending the "you can't withhold my kids from me" email and waiting and not giving Mom a reaction.

So what would ways be to work with this without "giving in" to Mom or fueling her distorted sense of winning/control?

[kells76]

OK, I've talked myself down... a little.

So according to our state's family law advisory council:

Denial of Parenting Time: COVID-19 is not a reason to deny parenting time. Unless otherwise ordered by the court, parents are considered fit to care for their children and make decisions regarding the day-to-day aspects of parenting while the children are in their care. This day-to-day care includes following the [State] Health Authority and your County Public Health directives regarding social distancing and sanitation-related measures (such as frequent handwashing).

and also:

A parent is not permitted to deny parenting time based upon the other
parent’s unwillingness to discuss their precautionary measures taken, or belief that the
other parent’s precautions are insufficient.

So I suggested to DH that we try to be solutions oriented and get it in an email. Something like "We share your concerns about the kids' health. Fortunately this virus is rendered harmless by soap and water based hygiene. As we stick to the schedule, let's add that the kids shower with SOAP and water before switching houses, and also wear clean clothes between houses. We plan to follow all hand washing guidelines" etc etc.

Then the ball is in her court to reject a compromise that acknowledges her concerns.

If one of us actually had corona or had an exposure, I would maybe be more open to something like "Skype PT" etc. But she acknowledged that the kids are healthy. I really don't want to go down the road of "I can cancel PT if I'm afraid that somebody somewhere might get sick."

Still waiting to hear back from L -- hopefully tomorrow a.m.

More ideas for a reply email would be much appreciated.

[kells76]

What about this:

"Dear Kids' Mom;

Thank you for sharing your concerns about the kids' health.

As we stick to the schedule, let's all continue to follow the CDC guidelines at home. Let's add in that the kids take a shower with soap and water before leaving one house to go to the other, and also wear clean clothes. We can also agree to not have anyone outside the family in either house.

Dad's work and kells76's work are already following recommended precautions and are not sources of concern. We are happy to find alternative commuting arrangements so kells76 doesn't have to ride the bus.

Dad will be over at the usual time tomorrow to pick up SD14, and can also take her to get her stitches out if you don't want to head out.

Thanks;

DH"

Note, DH and I took SD14 to get stitches at urgent care a couple of weeks ago -- finger slice in the kitchen. She is due to have the stitches out during DH's PT with her tomorrow. Mom is convinced that whatever sickness the kids got this past weekend with her (1-2 days cold symptoms plus SD14 threw up/fever) is from the urgent care trip. DH and I did not get sick. Mom and Stepdad had friends over one week ago, but "it's ok because they work from home".

[GaGrl]

The only thing you might add is that there will be no one in the house except family. It's not acceptable to guidelines right now to have either playmates or adult friends into the house.

[kells76]

I wonder if Mom is feeling shame at having had the friends over last week, and is trying to find a way to (a) not be responsible for the kids getting sick (therefore it was DEFINITELY the urgent care visit), and (b) renew her image of herself as "caring, above and beyond, concerned, etc" by trying to suspend visitation.

My hope would be that emailing back some sensible "let's meet in the middle" stuff, without agreeing to suspend visitation (remember, nobody is sick! and nobody has corona or a corona exposure!) would at least be a paper trail that DH is taking her concerns seriously and is solutions focused and a problem solver.

I just feel like it's a setup. Like LnL's SD23 and the "parking the car" issue (I think from another board), this whole situation is "wearing the clothes" of being about COVID-19, but it's a total trojan horse to get at something else. It's so not about the virus. It's just really, really convenient that Mom can grab the disguise of "I'm only concerned about health" at this time to cloak this move.

It feels like she wants to force DH into a corner to make a move that would be playing her game. Besides a neutral email, I don't know how else to not play Mom's game.

DH is worried that he will show up on Wednesday, and Mom and Stepdad will be there telling him he can't pick up SD14. Making a whole scene and putting the kids in the middle, painting DH as a horrible bad guy for not following basic health stuff (like Mom and Stepdad are). So how do we get out of this corner? How do we stick to the schedule without that move (sticking to the schedule) playing right into what Mom wants us to do, which is look bad so she looks good?

[SamwizeGamgee]

I hope this works out.   I like the tone of the suggested BFF reply above.

It reminds me that with the BPDs in life - no crisis is left to waste.

[kells76]

From the L:

Long story short, family law attorneys are being told the COVID era and uncertainty does not render a parenting plan unenforceable. In other words, absent some other compelling part of the case, all parenting plan provisions are still valid and in effect. However, this is not law. Just guidance from the higher ups. Also, the old idea that both parents can care for sick kids unless they are really sick – like with a fever.

But, the reality is there may be smart reasons to keep children with one parent during this time, at least for a while.

If the parents are in a dispute, a lawyer cannot guarantee we know what will happen and can’t go to court if push comes to shove. Therein lies the quandary.

It feels really 50/50. It's not clear to me how to make the best move. I'm feeling wiped out, like I can't deal with another round of Mom withholding PT "for good reasons".

[kells76]

We sent this last night:

Hi Kids' Mom,

Thanks for your email, I appreciate your desire to keep the kids healthy.

I think your idea of limiting the kids going between houses makes a lot of sense if one of us has a positive medical test for COVID-19. Thank you for raising that concern. If any one of us does, then let’s talk about your proposal.

You may have already seen this, but fortunately [our state] has some guidelines for families in our situation ([included link]). They recommend sticking to the schedule, but with added vigilance and intensity around hygiene and cleaning: “This day-to-day care includes following the [State] Health Authority and your County Public Health directives regarding social distancing and sanitation-related measures (such as frequent handwashing).”

They also recommend: “parents are encouraged to communicate about precautions they are taking to slow the spread of COVID-19. A parent is not permitted to deny parenting time based upon the other parent’s unwillingness to discuss their precautionary measures taken, or belief that the other parent’s precautions are insufficient.”

I think we can work together to share our cleaning routines and precautions in order to ensure the kids stick to the schedule in the safest way possible.

We have industrial grade virucidal surface cleaner and would be happy to share some if you need any. Per the new CDC guidelines, kells76 will make some masks — let me know if you want her to make some for you guys too. Let’s also talk about whether you think the kids should shower with soap and water before going between houses. We can all do daily temperature monitoring as well.

Don’t hesitate to ask if you want more info about the precautions we are taking.

I’ll be by at 3 tomorrow to pick up SD14. I’m happy to take her to get the stitches out if you guys don’t want to head out.

Be well;

DH

And got this back today:

Hi DH,

I am grateful for the steps you are taking and respect your perspective on this issue.

SD14 and I have talked about the current situation and she will be texting some of her concerns.

Again, I know this time is especially trying and will do my best to work with this fluid situation. Thanks for understanding.

To be clear, I am not concerned about the kids going between two houses, this is their normal and I'm doing my best to keep them in a

routine as close to "normal" as possible. My only worry is that with you and kells76 working you are exposing people at work as

well as exposing the kids (and thus Stepdad, Brother & I) to new sets of germs in your workplaces. I know we can do all we can to avoid the

cross contamination of environments but the broader the circle of environment the greater the risk to ourselves and others, this is why for

the window of incubation Stepdad is taking a leave from work.  Thank you (kells76) for the offer of masks but as of now only Stepdad and I are

leaving at all and we have N-95 masks. I am requesting that you consider their safety and the safety of other's in your circle of

influence in determining your decisions about work. As far as waiting for a confirmed Covid test, I understand the law must be written

with some form of concrete consideration, however the science is clear that by the time a test is confirming your state of carrying the

virus you are well past the time you are most contagious and again, I'm not asking that the kids not visit your home, only that you limit

the circle of influence while they are in the window of contagiousness. It has also been made clear to me by their pediatrician that there

will be no testing (due to lack of tests in [state]) on children who are not hospitalized, hopefully this is not something we will face with

them and they just had a little virus, unfortunately until you or I or kells76 or Stepdad or Brother get sick enough to be hospitalized in the state of

[State], we won't know. To my original point, I hope we can be flexible to make sure we are caring for the kids, each other, and our

community as thoughtfully and honorably as possible.

Thanks so much,

Kids' Mom

[kells76]

She's doing the thing again where she's like "it's not that I don't want the kids to go over, but they told me how they felt..."

Also, they were sick (and better) last weekend, but somehow:

however the science is clear that by the time a test is confirming your state of carrying the

virus you are well past the time you are most contagious and again, I'm not asking that the kids not visit your home, only that you limit

the circle of influence while they are in the window of contagiousness.

?

I'm pretty activated right now. DH is supposed to head over at 3, and I think he's pretty activated too...


Any advice?

[worriedStepmom]

I like the message that he sent.  That was really calm.

All he can do is show up and get the kids.  I might be a little snarky and bring hand sanitizer and have the kids sanitize their hands (and do his own) as soon as they are outside of mom's house.

[kells76]

I like the message that he sent.  That was really calm.

Weeellllll... He DID write the part about "Dear Kids' Mom, Thanks for your email, I appreciate your desire to keep the kids healthy." And he did write his name at the end.

What he wanted to put in the middle was " you" but I did some editing.

Anyway.

"SD14" texted a long statement to DH earlier today about how she "can't on her honor spend time with us until the 12-14 day quarantine is over". It sounded pretty canned.

He called SD14 earlier this afternoon and focused on listening to what she had to say. She is "sure" she had corona this past weekend and "didn't want to give it to us". DH asked what made her think she had it, and mentioned that if that were true, then he and I would've already been exposed.

He asked her what she wanted to know about the precautions we're taking at work. She said she didn't want to know because it wouldn't make a difference.

He also asked who she thought decided at Mom's house whether she would spend time with us. She perceives that it is herself.

DH said he was sorry she was in this position, and because he didn't want her to be in this position, he was deciding to not pick her up today. He said he would talk to Mom and they would decide about making up the time. He then offered to call her tonight to read to her out loud (usually she has opted to spend these Wednesdays overnight, and there's a book here that she is really into and wants to keep going in). She said OK.

DH said overall she sounded less activated and more resigned, but it was still interesting to hear that she did NOT want any info about precautions we were taking. I don't think she can allow herself to think that she could come over.

...

I've been helping her with math, by phone if she's at Mom's, and usually we stick to a routine time. She just called to say she wanted to do some other HW first, and math later. Maybe not a big thing, but still, she's usually so into routine, it's... weird.

...

DH emailed the L to describe the triangulation and say his plan right now is to listen to the kids, try to minimize conflict, and document. He is also asking if he needs to attempt to pick up the kids for any reason.

...

Oh, and Mom took out SD14's stitches... at home. Without telling us.

...

And we are supposed to have an overnight weekend with the kids this weekend. It is really frustrating because it seems like if we do attempt to pick up the kids at MOm's, it's just going to create conflict and a scene and either DH is "making"/"forcing" the kids to go with them "when they're scared", or the kids see DH show up and leave, so it's this no win scenario if he goes over, it seems.

Thoughts...?

[kells76]

Now Mom is saying this:

HI DH,

We had a brief conversation with SD14 after your conversation and want to do what we can to make sure you don't lose any time. She explained her perspective and we are grateful you were supportive of her. She was also very glad you read to her tonight. If she decides against this coming weekend we can switch weekends perhaps the 24th through 26th. This would provide you two weekends in a row?

Let me know what you think.
Mom

And also there is this guidance new from the CDC yesterday: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/community/critical-workers/implementing-safety-practices.html

DH and I are both considered "critical manufacturing workers".

What I want to write to her is:

Dear Kids' Mom;

You may have seen this already, but fortunately the CDC has issued guidelines describing how it is safe for kells76 and I, both critical manufacturing workers, to be at work and at home and with family in a safe way following a suspected viral exposure (link attached).

Let's show this to the kids to reassure them that even though there may be differences in the precautionary measures taken in our houses, both houses are doing what is appropriate and safe.

Let's you and I decide what is best for the kids and communicate together to them, so that they know we are on the same page that it is safe for them to go between our houses while kells76 and I work.

I'll be over on Friday around 1 as usual. Will you be able to wash the stuffed animals and blankets before I pick the kids up, or would you like me to do that as soon as we get home?

I'll send a different email about making up yesterday.

Thanks;

DH"

thoughts?

Also, I don't even know if we should touch the "If she decides against this coming weekend" BS.

[worriedStepmom]

I know you guys have a lot of history that is somewhat sensitive, but I have a hard time with the child having final say over whether she gets to go because of a pandemic.

That's a lot of responsibility for a 14-year-old, and it requires a lot of ability to sift through differing sources of information to determine what's most reliable. 

If your H is to enforce the visitation, though, that does cause its own set of tensions.

[kells76]

I know you guys have a lot of history that is somewhat sensitive, but I have a hard time with the child having final say over whether she gets to go because of a pandemic.

That's a lot of responsibility for a 14-year-old, and it requires a lot of ability to sift through differing sources of information to determine what's most reliable.

Ohhhh yeah. We are so together on that.

I mean, imagine that SD14 "thought it was fine" to go between houses, even though DH "thought it would be dangerous". I mean, what would Mom do? Say, "Well, of course I support her not going over, but if she thinks it's fine, then she needs to tell you so you guys can work it out"?

How would you construct an email that "jiu jitsu"s around Mom's "well I have no problem with X, but SD14 will share with you how she feels, which she and I already talked about" stuff? Do we even try to get across to her "This is NOT acceptable at this time" in some way? That it is putting SD14 in charge of making that decision that she has NO idea how to make?

I mean, we are working on math stuff together, and she is only now learning about non linear graphs. She has NO idea about exponential graphs or population modeling. She is nowhere near capable of thinking straightforwardly (i.e., "non-dogmatically" if that makes sense) about this -- and even I as an adult struggle to balance my understanding of what's going on and how serious it is.

[worriedStepmom]

I don't know if it would fly to say something like, "I'll be happy to help SD14 talk through her feelings when she's at my house.  For SD14 to be as upset as you make it seem, it sounds as if she's been exposed to too much adult information that she doesn't have the knowledge or experience to process appropriately.  What are you doing to protect her from information overload and adult decisions while she's at your home?"

[kells76]

Oh, I'd love to say that.

Mom would retaliate by "agreeing" and then convincing the kids that "they genuinely are still scared". So, no overnight weekend, because "Mom completely agrees that they need to be shielded from adult info, just like they've already been doing well at Mom's house. If the kids are scared, it's how they truly feel".

At some point that email probably does need to be sent, though. Maybe after Mom's arbitrary "quarantine" is over?

I worry about what she'll try to pull in the future if this sets a precedent. "As long as the kids are scared, what can I do? I can't make them go over, even if I think it's not a problem." I mean, if someone -- heaven forbid -- after this "quarantine" ACTUALLY gets COVID-19... what's she gonna do? I think we need help on strategy so that this doesn't turn into "any time in the future if the kids are sick, then if they are scared to give it to someone else, you either quit your job for two weeks or you don't see them".

[worriedStepmom]

She absolutely can make them go over.  Her job as a parent is to make the decisions and enforce them.

One of my friends went to jail on contempt charges because her 13-year-old flat-out refused to go to visitation with her NPD dad.  My friend would drive daughter to the exchange place, tell daughter repeatedly to get out of the car, and D wouldn't budge.  Dad would eventually leave.  The judge said she was a bad parent if she couldn't control her kid.

It seems like H can either give in (allow SD and her emotions to run things - just like mom's emotions do), force the issue (and potentially have upset kids for the weekend),
and/ or push back really hard on mom that since mom's house is the *only* place SD has been, then for SD to be this scared, mom is not adequately protecting SD from information she isn't equipped to handle.

[kells76]

since mom's house is the *only* place SD has been, then for SD to be this scared, mom is not adequately protecting SD from information she isn't equipped to handle.

(Or is not providing SD with appropriate information in order to have a clear view of safety.)

I like how you phrased that. Because it's true. Kids had no problem being with us up thru that weekend they got sick.

If DH goes for the "CDC guideline let's work together" email we'll do that first. If Mom responds with "well, this, well, that" then it sounds good to me to say the above, and get the kids. We gave SD14 one example of "we will hear your concerns and decide for today not to do it" and now with this new info, it's time to go back to usual.

[PeteWitsend]

An attorney I know shared this article: https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/coronavirus-has-made-shared-child-custody-an-impossible-free-for-all about co-parenting during the COVID-19 pandemic; no one has any case law to go on, so the article includes some "common sense" legal advice that might be helpful:

During “normal times,” violating a parenting agreement would land the parents in court, where the violator could be held in contempt. “A judge would then order the violator to follow the order, give the other parent ‘make up time,’ and finally, order the violator to pay the other parent’s attorney fees,” he continues.

But sheltering-in-place and quarantine clearly changes things. “You can’t follow the parenting agreement under shelter-in-place. You can’t follow shelter-in-place under the parenting agreement,” Knight explains. “So a judge won’t punish people for getting caught in a legal contradiction that wasn’t of their own making.”

Also, judges aren’t working anyway because the courts are closed. Which means, Knight says, “parents will do what they want without fear of reprisal.”
...

In Washington state, attorney John Stocks says lawyers there “have read Governor [Jay] Inslee’s order and proclamation [for shelter-in-place] and looked for application,” which has resulted in the argument that taking children to and from the other parents’ house is an “essential” activity. He adds that Inslee’s spokesperson also put out a statement addressing this issue directly. It read, “Parents should continue to drop off and pick up their children as usual. Any disputes between parents over legally-binding parenting agreements should be handled in the usual way, in accordance with existing state laws.”

That said, Stocks tells me he wouldn’t rely on such a statement as chapter-and-verse. “It’s what we call advisory or dicta — i.e., non-binding. Still, it’s some guidance from the higher-ups,” he explains.
...

“Experienced lawyers will tell their client to be generous — such as offering make-up time to the parent missing time, offering FaceTime or virtual visits via video apps — so that if there is court oversight, the client looks reasonable,” Stocks says. 

If being reasonable is impossible, Miller suggests using a “co-parenting communication app” or seeking mediation via a third party. “Even when courts are unavailable to help, finding a mediator will help you reach a solution that works for both parents, and most importantly, for the children,” she explains. 

Remember, too, she continues, “Everyone is in the same boat. So don’t worry about setting a precedent about not visiting or missing time. Although tensions are running very high, this will pass and the behavior you demonstrate now will either enhance or detract from your future co-parenting relationship, any pending court case, or both. After all, if a judge feels you put your children at risk, that might reflect badly on your parenting skills in the future.”

[LightAfterTunnel]

Hi Kells76,

I agree with PetesWitsend about trying to remain as reasonable as possible. In the end it will pay off even if it takes time.

I also agree that it’s SD’s mom who should be helping her overcome her fears about the virus in an appropriate manner. Document how the mom is not helping SD. I don’t know the best way to help SD through the fog...does she have a therapist that could help her.

My exBPDw stopped respecting the custody order on March 13th when our region declared an emergency state (we’re next to Milan). My exBPDw has been telling our 3 children that I have coronavirus because I work in a hospital and so they can’t see me. Obviously exBPDw denies this contrary to why kids say. The judge just today, after 4 weeks that I haven’t seen my children, gave the decision. ExBPDw has been ordered to follow the custody as was originally in place, exBPDw must replace all the time that I missed, exBPDw has to pay all court fees and has to pay me $500 (not all my lawyer fees but at least something)...so almost exactly to the word of what PetesWitsend posted.

In the end I think pwBPD make many little mistakes and they show through even in a moment such as this. “Worry” for a child’s wellbeing vs true worry for the child’s wellbeing can be differentiated...ie worrying about a virus doesn’t mean removing the other parent. It means supporting your child’s feelings but at the same time helping them get through it all. We pushed this in our observations to the judge and it worked...thank god.

Anyway my D12 is truly convinced by exBPDw’s rhetoric and thinks I’m contagious while S9 and D7 don’t buy into it all and just want to see me. I’m still not sure of the best way to speak with D12 when she comes here in a couple days but luckily I’m in contact with D12’s therapist who is on top of everything to help D12 through the fog.

Good luck!
LAT

[ForeverDad]

I recently wrote a post about a situation I faced when my phone died just as a weekend started, my ex failed to call my house phone and then the next week at a previously scheduled court appearance she complained she couldn't talk to our son, making it appear it was a pattern.  Note the magistrate's position.

I recall the time I was in family court and the magistrate stated my 'excuse' that son didn't want to call his mother didn't matter.  She quizzed, "Does your son get to decide he doesn't go to school?"  Her point was that the kids don't decide many aspects of their lives including the parenting schedule or terms.  The parents have to follow the court's order.  So Mother shouldn't be able to use that as defense of her actions.

I just remembered another example.

When my marriage was falling apart, soon to implode, my soon-to-be-ex freaked out about abusers and abductors lurking in the bushes anywhere and everywhere but it never got traction in court.  During one 3 month period where she blocked me from my son, between orders, there was a tornado warning but she wouldn't answer the phone to confirm my preschooler was safe.  My lawyer told me there was nothing to be done, that if I went to court about it that it would think I was crazy, he had more risk from a car accident than from a tornado.  Probably that's similar to how the court would see your ex's demands and objections.

[kells76]

Sent an email last night. Basically it was "oh wow, you might have seen this already, but the CDC just released guidance for our situation! The kids will be so relieved. Please share this with them so they don't have to worry!"

Nothing in reply yet, and DH due to pick them up at 1... we'll see...

[kells76]

Hey PeteWitsend, thanks for the article and for chiming in.

The article reminds me of this one (https://www.thecenterforfamilylaw.com/afcc-aaml) I saw recently, too.

I think the sense from the article is "there's no case law or precedent for this situation, so as lawyers, we can't guarantee which way things would go in court for you". That's essentially what our L told us, too.

I am putting my hope in statements like this:

the behavior you demonstrate now will either enhance or detract from your future co-parenting relationship, any pending court case, or both.

L said that DH's phrase "My strategy is to listen to my kids, defuse conflict, and document" stood out to him as exactly what he would recommend to a client. DH asked if there was any downside if he did not make a physical attempt to pick up the kids, and L said No. That was a huge relief to hear from L, who knew the ins and outs of our situation. That DH not trying to pick up the kids (after manipulative emails from Mom etc) would probably not ding him, but would more reflect "I am trying to keep my kids out of the middle of a conflict".

I hope we can all look back at this time, in the future, and at least be glad that our troubles have illuminated a big loophole in a lot of PP's. Maybe parents down the road will have more articles like the ones we found, with more specific guidance.

[kells76]

Hi LAT, good to hear from you.

SD11 (almost 12) sounds like she is in a similar place as your D12 -- not really wanting to go to Dad's, totally convinced by Mom's rhetoric. I think SD14 was around the same age when she went through that. As much as it sounds (partially) developmental, it's really, really hard.

I agree with PetesWitsend about trying to remain as reasonable as possible. In the end it will pay off even if it takes time.

That's the strategy right now. Minimize conflict, don't put kids in middle, listen a lot, get out of the triangles (easier said than done).

I also agree that it’s SD’s mom who should be helping her overcome her fears about the virus in an appropriate manner. Document how the mom is not helping SD. I don’t know the best way to help SD through the fog...does she have a therapist that could help her.

It is frustrating when the disordered parent essentially "picks the scab" on the kid, then, through misattribution of causality, tells them "you're in pain because of the other parent". SD14 used to have a counselor but not any more. I struggle with feeling powerless to get the kids back in counseling.

The judge just today, after 4 weeks that I haven’t seen my children, gave the decision. ExBPDw has been ordered to follow the custody as was originally in place, exBPDw must replace all the time that I missed, exBPDw has to pay all court fees and has to pay me $500 (not all my lawyer fees but at least something)...so almost exactly to the word of what PetesWitsend posted.

Really glad you got that validation! I hope your ex will be chagrined and simmer down, and not take it out on the kids or you.

“Worry” for a child’s wellbeing vs true worry for the child’s wellbeing can be differentiated...ie worrying about a virus doesn’t mean removing the other parent.

Yes. It's "astonishing" (eyeroll) how many "solutions" to the kids' discomfort and pain, according to their mom, involves getting DH out of their lives. Ugh. Misattribution of causality. Yes, the kids are in pain, yes, they are uncomfortable, yes, it is somehow associated with DH... but nobody ever considers that hey, maybe it's missing him, and being tacitly told that he's bad, that puts the kids in pain.

’m still not sure of the best way to speak with D12 when she comes here in a couple days but luckily I’m in contact with D12’s therapist who is on top of everything to help D12 through the fog.

It's really hard. If it were me, I would work REALLY hard at stopping my knee-jerk reaction to explain, and I would practice validating questions ahead of time.

I had an epiphany the other day -- pretty much any time with the kids (or their mom or stepdad) that I am pulled towards a JADE response (i.e. "I just need to explain to them what's really true here"), that's a sign that there is a triangle involved. That needs to be my cue to move towards triangle-neutralizing responses. DH and I got blindsided with a strong triangle the other weekend (see my "March" post) and I am working on not berating myself for not seeing it right away and not using LnL's suggestions in the moment. Hard lesson.

Thanks again, and glad you get to see your kids! 

[kells76]

Hi ForeverDad;

Thanks for reminding me of your examples. As much as I hope we NEVER go to court (we got close back in ... 2016? but it settled before), it would give me great pleasure if Mom got reamed for putting a decision about which house to go to -- during a pandemic, which mere days ago was VERY concerning to Mom -- in the hands of a 14 year old. I know it's wrong, and that nothing will ever open her eyes to how manipulative and hurtful it is, but it would be nice for a neutral third party to tell her to STOP.

I'll keep you all posted on how today goes -- am praying for calm, peace, understanding, low conflict, and time with the kids.

Thank you for your support.

[kells76]

 
Kids are here, whew
 

[worriedStepmom]

Yay!  I'm glad H was able to get them.

[livednlearned]

Oh wow! What a relief things didn't get uglier. How do the kids seem now that they're with you?

These are upside-down times for families who know a thing or two about being upside-down! I admire so much how you and H handled things. It's especially challenging to duck out of triangles when there is validity to the concerns, and/or uncertainty about them. And your stuff has a legal component which is currently going through it's own uncertainty.

I had another thought while reading your posts. For BPD sufferers in my life, the flip side of being prone to drama is the desire to be soothed. "Here is the drama. Soothe me."

I wonder if that's part of what was going on with mom. Not necessarily the desire to have the girls 24/7, but to connect (through conflict) with the heightened anxiety of what's happening with covid. She doesn't have the skills to do this other than the ways she does it.

Your emails, your demeanor was ultimately soothing. "We got this. Let's be normal while we ride this thing out. Here's how we're being careful, here's what authorities are saying, let's do that. Keep things the same."

I see something kind of similar with SD23.

She is paranoid that her neighbor is purposefully bullying her through the walls of her apartment (?), first touching her mail box cover, then stealing her mail, then onto being followed, knowing when she's home to crank up music, listening through the walls. I think it's a sign she is decompensating, but she also has a BF prone to paranoia, so there's no one to soothe the other. Makes me wonder if SD23 is hyper-focusing on the neighbor because it's a more tangible way to fixate her anxiety? The virus is not a relationship so cannot be addressed with her primitive skills, so she uses it as backdrop in which her more go-to methods can be applied, like relationship conflicts.