Perhaps she's mad and won't coparent because she failed at destroying me

[Newyoungfather]

Hello Everyone,
I hope everyone is doing well with the whole corona outbreak.  I have been thinking about why the mother of my child is soo aggressive and has hatred for me.  I'm not a doctor but she has signs of BPD/NPD with most of her behaviors aligning with BPD.  During my relationship and our custody battle she has set her eyes on destroying me, either financially with child support, placing him in the most expensive daycare and petitioning the court for me to pay for it, etc, or restricting my time with my son, filing false allegations of abuse, lying to counselors, etc.  Out of all her nonsense, I was never charged with a crime (although she has tried too) and I have my son for 50/50 custody and legal custody.  Just about everything she tried to do she failed at trying to destroy me in court.  I was thinking, is she bitter at me because I moved on bought my own place, and am living my life how I want to live it.  I am not into fancy cars or clothes so I don't show off anything I have, I am just a peace with myself and have long move passed her.  I have not gotten into a relationship because I want to wait until my son is a little bit order as I feel she manipulates him.  What is everyone's thoughts?

[ForeverDad]

We separated and divorced when my son was 3-5 years old.  I was alternate weekend dad during the temp orders and equal time dad in the final decree.  Her obstruction and allegations didn't stop.  I went back with Change of Circumstances when he was 8-9 years old and got legal guardianship.  The GAL didn't want to give me majority time so Ex could have Child Support.  The allegations stopped but the obstruction continued.  So when he was 10-11 I went back for majority time.  This time the GAL was fed up with her.  We had a full two day trial after which the magistrate issued a finding that she was disparaging me around our child and I was granted majority time.  However, it was only during the school year.  I concluded it was because the school testified about her scenes and tardies to school.  Imagine that, school got more action than father and son.  Finally, though, with minority time and him becoming a teen, her sense of entitlement was deflated a bit.  We never went back to court.

Our son recently aged out of the system, lives with me and she acts like nothing had happened.  I still have to be careful because she triggers easily.

[Panda39]

Negative interaction with you is still interaction.  If your ex is anything like my partner's ex she wants to engage with you it doesn't matter if that engagement is positive or negative she has your attention.

I always used to ask "why" when it came to the things my Partner's ex was doing.  The thing is she isn't rational so there is no rational answer.  I can't tell you why one minute she wanted to have coffee and discuss the kids and the next minute was filing false allegations of abuse other than she did what she felt in that moment.

You have moved forward in a lot of ways which is awesome, and I know it's hard to completely let go when you share a child, and must have some contact, but I challenge you to stop giving her as much head space as you are. 

Why does she do the things she does?  Because she does.

Panda39

[Newyoungfather]

Sometimes I wonder if she is truly happy in her marriage and the I catch myself and realize its not my problem or concern to be her emotional support system and problem fixer anymore.

[MeandThee29]

Negative interaction with you is still interaction.  If your ex is anything like my partner's ex she wants to engage with you it doesn't matter if that engagement is positive or negative she has your attention.

Mine took way longer than it should have, also because negative interaction is still interaction. There are ways in the legal process to hang on and manipulate. My lawyer and I ultimately took a bold move to end that, and the settlement was signed. For healthy people who just want to move on, it doesn't make sense. But it makes sense to them.

[worriedStepmom]

I didn't realize you had primary custody to go along with the 50/50 parenting time.  Congratulations!

My H's ex feels inferior and therefore does her best to make everyone else feel - or at least look - the same way.  From what she's told me, she believes her daughter is an extension of herself, and it is in her daughter's best interests to be with mom all the time.  She'll therefore do whatever she has to do to make this happen.

It doesn't make a lot of sense.  It really doesn't.  I'm working with a therapist so that I can stop dwelling on it so much.  The constant accusations and bad behavior ... it's hard and can cause a lot of ruminating.

[zachira]

Clearly how the mother of your child treats you is not how a person with healthy self esteem would behave nor it is how 90 percent of people would act. My late mother and  two siblings had/have BPD and strong narcissistic traits. My experience with them is I can never feel safe not knowing when they decide to do something in what seems like a lifetime grudge to get even with me for no apparent reasons. I am wondering if you are feeling unsafe, worrying about what she might do next, and perhaps are hoping to find ways to get her to just move on and leave you alone. You are perhaps thinking that maybe if you understand what is behind her treating you so badly and making so many unfounded accusations, that you will be able do some how to get her to act more like an adult and in the best interests of your son. In the short term, I think your best chance for things to change somewhat might be to do some court ordered therapy over how to coparent. Probably long term, you may want to go for full custody of your son. Keeping a chronological journal of everything that she does is considered valid evidence for family court, as to what kind of custody arrangement is best for the child.
I really don't have much to say about why she acts the way she does. I feel sad and hear your frustration about how she behaves, and I think the main problem is she doesn't understand why she acts the way she does.

[KingofTexas37891]

I have a similar situation like OP. I think am managing it well so far by removing any removing for drama from her:
- have a very detailed parenting plan that captures all cases where there could be disagreements
- agree in parenting plan that communication is supposed to be strictly in writing only using a co-parenting app. Texting on phone only in emergency
- keep communication with her short and succint.
- If she starts new nonesense, do not respond immediately wait at least 6 hrs before responding. Do not fall for her traps to start small fights. Ignore those
- Set strict boundaries and enforce them. Let her know you know all your parental rights and you will not tolerate her violating any of it
- move on with your life and get a new lady

[livednlearned]

I have been thinking about why the mother of my child is soo aggressive and has hatred for me

Most likely, you fulfill criteria she has for a trauma narrative that predates you.

It may be like a rejection fantasy where she pushes you to reject her (through abuse, infidelity, etc.) then gets to "survive" your rejection of her over and over.

It's not personal. It feels personal.

If not you, it would be someone else because the purpose is to relive the trauma and continue to prove (unconsciously) to herself she can survive it. Instead of moving on and processing it with someone who can safely help her deal with the original trauma.

Honestly, it's not that different for many of us. Except the BPD traits and no sense of self make it much harder to be accountable for her own emotions and behaviors.  

[Longterm]

kingofTexas37891 gives some very good advice here.

It's all about minimizing conflict and sticking to your guns. Do not reply instantly to any interaction. All the times I did this I felt horrible afterwards because I allowed her to provoke a reaction, it made me feel weak and powerless. Always keep your self respect, dignity and accept that it does not make sense, it is what it is.

Sounds like your moving forward pretty well so kudos for that.

LT.

[kells76]

is she bitter at me because I moved on bought my own place, and am living my life how I want to live it.  I am not into fancy cars or clothes so I don't show off anything I have, I am just a peace with myself and have long move passed her.  I have not gotten into a relationship because I want to wait until my son is a little bit order as I feel she manipulates him.  What is everyone's thoughts?

Sometimes I wonder if she is truly happy in her marriage and the I catch myself and realize its not my problem or concern to be her emotional support system and problem fixer anymore.

If not you, it would be someone else

A good starter question and two great followup thoughts in this thread.

Sometimes I'm where you are at -- wondering why the kids' mom does what she does. It is difficult to remember that her brain does not work like mine. Often my ponderings include the phrase "but it doesn't make ANY SENSE", and maybe that should be my reminder.

It's a good sign that you are able to reflect that you are at peace with yourself. Your son's mom may never be at peace with herself, and might try to regulate her roiling, unstable emotions by doing something "external". We need to remember that being at peace with ourselves comes from inside ourselves and from our own work on ourselves, not from "well, if everyone else would just not set me off, then I'd be at peace with myself".

I agree with LnL that if she weren't bitter and resentful towards you, she would be towards SOMEONE. It's not really about you (in a way), you're just playing a part in what she's working out. It's sad that you are her "target of blame" (see Bill Eddy's work on High Conflict People) because that damages your son.

What are some ways you've worked on being at peace with yourself?

Any tools that have been effective for you for not letting her "rent space in your head"?

[Newyoungfather]

Thanks everyone for your reply.
@Kells76,  I think some of the things that have helped me was focusing on myself for the past couple of years.  I had to step out of the FOG to see how delusional our relationship was, I finally had to realize that by her attempt to get pregnant in the first week she ever met me was a way to control me.  There is a fine line to have a baby for love or to have a baby for control.
I have also been single since dating her, I've gone on dates with other women and met some really cool friends but other than that I have not officially been in a relationship.
For her not to rent space in my head, I tend to ask myself would a mentally healthy person do this.  For example she decided to dress her husband up in the exact same clothes, style of sunglasses and even the exact same boots that I wear during a custody pickup.  At first I was shocked and then I asked myself would a mentally healthy person do this.  Her husband at one point had the exact same type of hair that I had.  I've picked up on a lot of things she does with her husband to fulfill her dream she had with me, she got the exact same wedding ring that she wanted me to give her, she got engaged at the spot she want me to ask her to marry her, they had their honeymoon at the spot in which she wanted to go on with me, they even bought the same dog breed I liked and she named the dog the name we picked out when we were together.
In all when she does something now a days, I ask myself, would a mentally healthy person do this, when the answer is no, I usually then get caught up wondering why she did this.  The nasty emails has drastically reduced in the past couple of months, I just get the nasty comments at custody exchanges which leads to me believe if shes taking her anger out on her husband.

[pausercell]

Hey buddy,

I feel for you, I really do.  Like you, I was treated like a criminal even though I have never been arrested or charged with any crime.  She tried to break me by filing a Protection Order (that she had to dismiss voluntarily), her parents, who are as bad if not worse than she is, tried to deny me custody by making outrageous claims.  After the dust settled I now have 50/50 custody and have a great relationship with my kids.  Because of her and the chaos that she has thrown my way throughout our entire relationship, I ended up in therapy and boy howdy was it a godsend.  My therapist and my men's group counselor gave me some sage advice.  They told me, "for the sake of your own sanity, stop trying to make sense of irrational people.  You're trying to use rational thinking to understand someone who is completely irrational."  Is she bitter?  Probably?  But moreover, she is losing control of you and her position in your life.  Her attempts to destroy you were out of the narc rage people with BPD/NPD have.  I know it's easier said than done, TRUST ME, but you have to try your best to not take it personally.  Observe but don't absorb.  You aren't alone in this, we have all been through this, some way worse than others.  But it does get better.  You just have to be patient.  Sooner or later her attacks will lack the punch that they did before and you will be truly free.   

[MeandThee29]

For her not to rent space in my head, I tend to ask myself would a mentally healthy person do this.  For example she decided to dress her husband up in the exact same clothes, style of sunglasses and even the exact same boots that I wear during a custody pickup.  At first I was shocked and then I asked myself would a mentally healthy person do this.  Her husband at one point had the exact same type of hair that I had.  I've picked up on a lot of things she does with her husband to fulfill her dream she had with me, she got the exact same wedding ring that she wanted me to give her, she got engaged at the spot she want me to ask her to marry her, they had their honeymoon at the spot in which she wanted to go on with me, they even bought the same dog breed I liked and she named the dog the name we picked out when we were together.
In all when she does something now a days, I ask myself, would a mentally healthy person do this, when the answer is no, I usually then get caught up wondering why she did this.  The nasty emails has drastically reduced in the past couple of months, I just get the nasty comments at custody exchanges leads to me believe if shes taking her anger out on her husband.

Yes, it can get a little weird at times, but I like your attitude. My therapist predicted that he would find a woman a lot like me with kids approximately the same ages to give himself a "redo."  Or I think he might track down a previous girlfriend that he idolized in some ways that used to call and at one point lived in the area where he now is. He talked about her more frequently near the end than before. She sounded more like the type you date or have an affair with than someone you marry, but whatever. Thankfully I know zero about how he spends his time, but that all just seems so odd to me.

I never got the "burn the bridges" attitude either. I just don't do that with anyone, not even my ex. At one point my attorney told me that "fair and legal" was much better than "nice" during the divorce process. He told me that when it was over, I could be nice all I wanted to because the world needs nice people, but that I needed to be less nice in the divorce process. LOL.

[Turkish]

My ex would still be married if it were up to him, and he put up with far more than I did! As my T said, even with therapy, personalities typically don't change, and he wasn't talking about BPD even but in general.

In all when she does something now a days, I ask myself, would a mentally healthy person do this,

And that's where you stop  

My buddy and I discussed this maybe a year ago, talking about the dysfunction we'd seen as kids and as adults. I told him that ROs, DV, and police were involved in the relationship before mine and the marriage after mine and we both agreed that such a level of dysfunction wasn't normal.

Here's to luck to the next guy, and maybe it will follow the Even Numbered Star Trek movie pattern in that the even movies were the better ones.  

[Newyoungfather]

Turkish, you made an excellent point that these types of personalities don't change.  I remember is couples therapy that she would act so nice and say she will change but that never happened.  Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting the same result.  I no longer expect this coparent relationship to be normal, she wasn't healthy and normal in our relationship why would she change once its over especially since she thinks the break up of the relationship is all my fought.  The false allegations of child abuse keeps coming and now I am better armed with how to deal with.  All of our communication is through email and her allegations are documented, I also don't respond to her crazy emails that I received once in a while especially ones that don't involve questions, it's funny because I call these emails deregulation emails, ie, emails that rant and rave and accuse me of engaging in behavior that has little base or facts to back up her theories.  I think once the dust settles, she truly then feels stupid for sending them to me because she realizes I am going to use them against her in court.  I am trying to put as much distance between me and her, she wants to come over to pick up my son at my house in which I politely denied and stated that meeting halfway at our custody exchange point is sufficient enough, coparent counselor also agreed with me that both parties should feel comfortable in exchanging at each other's house and given our past we aren't there yet. 

[Turkish]

It would be healthy if you could get there at some point, but I still wouldn't let her in the house. Ever. I'd also get a Ring doorbell or camera to cover the front and whatever point the exchanges happen at your home. You won't need permission to film and record from a security camera.

[MeandThee29]

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting the same result. 

And another for you: I don't do crazy. I define crazy.

I had professionals telling me how crazy my relationship was including both lawyers. But eventually I got it for myself. Slow learner.

[CoherentMoose]

Hello.  Be very cautious about exchanges at each other's home.  A public place where there are witnesses is safer until there is clear demonstration there will be no issues with either parent or the children.  In addition, it seems to give the children a "transition" period between homes where traveling to the exchange location that allows them to decompress leaving one parent to the other.  The transfer is in "neutral" territory.  In addition to the Ring security cameras at your house, one of the posters on here used to record himself at exchanges for self-protection when picking up the kids at her house. Good luck.  jdc

[GaGrl]

I agree that a neutral exchange location can be best -- a fast food restaurant, etc. Worse case scenario, some members here have needed to exchange acts police station.

If exchanging at home, you might arrange that you will remain in your car a n d she will stay at the front door while the child walks to the car (safety being the focus on how it plays out).

If you are in a state where recording is not allowed, you can "record yourself" to ensure protections against false accusations.

[Newyoungfather]

GaGrl,
Yes we can video record but can't audio record.  I want to enter into an agreement in which I pick my son up from preschool and she drops him off.  I believe with her seeing is a way to keep her in my life and that is what makes her tick.  It's only time until she is completely unraveled and lose it, I am just preparing and setting protocols in line for when that happens.

[worriedStepmom]

It may be worth it to also think ahead to when your son is out of school or day care, or if their are exchanges when day care is closed.

We exchange at a bench next to the sidewalk down the street from our house.  We can see SD walk there from our porch, and she can wait on the bench until mom arrives to pick her up.  Mom can drop her off there and watch her walk to our house.  (Your son is too young for that, but he won't be forever.)  You can be creative and find solutions that work.

[GaGrl]

The preschool pickups would be ideal.

My husband's ex had a difficult time accepting that their conversations needed to be about adult children and the grandchildren (college fund contributions). She continued to use him as advisor, shoulder to cry on, confidante, crisis manager, etc. (I could tell you all about The Great Breast Cancer Scare that was a cyst -- she called our house 3-4 times a day for five days, during which I established my new boundary of no calls to our landline, and cell calls to be taken outside on the patio). I do think it was a way to continue a level of connection and control of him, and that was not acceptable to me as I saw it as deliberate interference in our then-new marriage.

This is how bad it got before my husband finally "got it." His ex is from an Asian country in which it is still acceptable for a man to have a second, non-official wife. The official site is the First Wife, and the second wife is called the Mia Noi, Little Wife. The ex at one point told their daughter, " It doesn't matter that he married her. I'll always be the First Wife, and she'll always be the Mia Noi. "

Yikes.

[scraps66]

I have coincidentally been reflecting on this topic during this difficult time with shared custody of S15 and S12 with my uexNPDBPDw.  The "why" of how she treats me.  There was certainly no provocation on my part, I was merely a target of entrapment. 

All I can come to is that this is a sickness.  A sickness of people that need to destroy when they don't get their way.  I wholeheartedly believe my ex is simply upset that I was not going to go along with her fabricated plan of being able to keep an abusive target within reach.  Abusers need to abuse and being married to someone and having kids makes it difficult for the abusive target to flee.  I have validated this perspective time and time again with a mount of documented history.  From the constant bickering and verbal assaults in front of the kids, usurping my authority over the kids right in front of the kids, disagreeing with everything I suggest, all this while living together.  Now apart, this has grown to, not communicating, not involving me in decisions though I have legal custody, portraying her boyfriend as Dad and building his relationship with my boys, controlling away any of my satisfaction with either child, etc, etc.

It's all just because she didn't get her way, didn't get to orchestrate her plan to lure a person in her life that couldn't leave, birth two children who would be reared to be her lifelong advocates, and allow herself to create a "self" however false by creating a comparison to her abusive target. Me. 

It all sounds very odd and almost unbelievable but very consistent with most on this board.   

[Newyoungfather]

@scraps66-I feel for you, exbpd always tries to incite me that her new man is replacing me, at first I thought this behavior was only because we separated and that it will die down after the dust settled, I was wrong, 5 years and still going strong. It's amazing of all the energy they have to make other peoples life miserable, with raising my son by myself I have 0 energy left to do the things I love let alone to make her life or anyone's life for that matter miserable.  I agree with the term "fixation", she is fixated on me for some reason.

[scraps66]

In the short term, I think your best chance for things to change somewhat might be to do some court ordered therapy over how to coparent. Probably long term, you may want to go for full custody of your son.

I would be very careful, cautious, of including coparenting therapy as a way of improving the situation.  In fact, I would recommend not even considering coparent counseling.  I had two gorounds. The first, she lasted 15 minutes, the amount of time it gave her to speak and when I started speaking.  The last time I went back to court, about four years ago, our now S15 was struggling and momster was behaving badly.  The Master's inexperienced and misinformed tact and solution was to send us to coparent counseling.  I hung my head.  What would happen, $1100 in copays and many sessions where ex simply collected data to be used in her alienation.  What happened at the end was that S15s behavior actually got worse!  So bad that he was transferred out of his current school.

So, there is no improvement to be had in a therapy setting where both parents would sit in a room together and discuss issues.  This is why many NPD/BPDs loove marriage counseling.  It's because you, the abusive target, is within range and can be blamed for all things wrong.  That was my experience.

If I had it to do all over, I would have filed for full custody. At the start.  That way there would have been no way of avoiding a full evaluation including psych evals of both parties.  Instead I spent money going to court seeking things like consent to take S15 to therapy and a trial to get the Deed back to my house.  Sounds silly.       

[livednlearned]

I would be very careful, cautious, of including coparenting therapy as a way of improving the situation. 

Me too. Especially if the BPD person is a high-conflict personality, which most discussed on this board seem to be. The counselor becomes the third tip of the triangle and the splitting and triangulation begins in earnest. It just makes the fight spread from two people to three.

Didn't you have a go-around already with a coparenting counselor of some type, newyoungfather?

It's not necessarily a BPD trait per se, more of an immature way to handle or fan conflict, but using triangulation to create alliances seems to be pretty common in our cases. It works ok if the third party (PC, coparent counselor, judge, master, GAL, etc) can see through the triangulation, and if that person has some authority.

But if you don't get that combination of competence coparent counseling can be hell.

I think david, a member here, rode it out until the counselor could see what was up but it seemed to take a long time and expense to get there.

[Newyoungfather]

livednlearned, yes we did have co-parenting counseling and it started out really messy. exBPD intent in therapy was to prove that I was not a good parent, at the time I only had 30/70 custody of my son asking the courts for 50/50.  There was a court order stating that the co-parent counselor, (PHD certified), needed to write up a report of his findings and recommendations.  Exbpd stated that my son "had anger issues because I am not an involved father in his life".  The therapist affirmed her allegations however during the final session and in his report to the court he stated that father is capable of caring for the child and states he see's no concern of safety for the child in father's care, court awarded me 50/50 custody.  What I have learned, if the therapist is not well trained or regularly in court your setting yourself up for disaster.  The therapist is known in the court system to the judges and regularly conducts coparenting sessions.  
Exbpd and myself also went to another therapist who was not known to the courts and lied about her experience.  Exbpd convince the therapist of everything under the sun, you name it she said it.  Let's say that since this therapist was not known to the courts or had any experience her testimony never made it court.  
So this was my lesson learned with exbpd, in any type of therapy I actually give her enough of rope to hang herself.  My lawyer and I have the best plan, we let exbpd state as many false allegation to the therapist, all communication with the therapist has to be in writing.  We don't defend ourselves to the therapist but when the time comes in court I will release all information, facts and evidence to prove exbpd wrong.  We want to show her character in front of the judge who has the authority to make the final decision. Just imagine if the therapist comes in to testify based on exbpd allegations and we prove that she lied to therapist (via emails) in front of the judge.  It's one of those things I keep in back of my mind if a mentally healthy would conduct this behavior, she hasn't caught on yet.