Online Legal Forum and Spousal Support

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hi all,

I have a question about alimony and didn’t want to hijack Reawakening’s post because her needs are entirely different.

Also, our state is still closed and I can’t get a lawyer to discuss/take on a new client for a couple of weeks, so I’m wondering in anyone knows of an anonymous legal website I could ask a couple of questions.  Kind of like this, but legal focused.

That said, you all have been so wonderful and I know you have the perspective from the BPD side.

My question has to do with alimony/spousal support.

My H has been primary breadwinner. He owns his own business and can make a ton of money, and has. Other years he is less motivated and doesn’t. I’ve been working from home for twenty years. I worked for same company for almost fifteen of those years but they sent jobs overseas and it ended. Since, I’ve had a few jobs from home but less reliable for a lot of reasons. But, I still had little kids and cost of daycare would have eaten majority of my pay so it didn’t seem to make sense. Plus I would have to take off if they got sick, summers, etc. so we decided I should continue to work from home. (Which, btw, he started saying I was unwilling to work outside the home.  Not true. Was a joint decision and twenty years ago he pushed this (kids are spread out).

I stopped my previous position right before end of the year and started looking for something new. I got one but they tried to change terms and it didn’t work and I have a couple that are midway but they’re on hold with pandemic and I have no idea if they will be there when we come out of this, let alone if the businesses will even survive.

H stopped working during pandemic. Kind of the couple of weeks before.  Coworkers were on vacation, he was jealous so he didn’t work. We were going away before pandemic but he had a meltdown and left for four days the week before the trip. I canceled it. He spent thirty percent of the trip money the four days he was gone.

He could work from home but he won’t. He has no money. I have some from a small inheritance. But he makes about 5-6 times what I make in a normal year (sometimes 10x). He spends every dime he can on fun stuff.

Anyway, I can share more details, but just trying to give a feel.

I am concerned about two things. First, will he likely have to give me spousal support?  We’ve been married twenty-six years. And, if he decides to not return to his job, will that mean he will have not have to give me support?  Or, if he takes a job paying a lot less?

I’m trying to get a job, but obviously challenging right now. Appreciate any help. Thanks!

[UBPDHelp]

Hi all,

I have a question about alimony and didn’t want to hijack Reawakening’s post because her needs are entirely different.

Also, our state is still closed and I can’t get a lawyer to discuss/take on a new client for a couple of weeks, so I’m wondering in anyone knows of an anonymous legal website I could ask a couple of questions.  Kind of like this, but legal focused.

That said, you all have been so wonderful and I know you have the perspective from the BPD side.

My question has to do with alimony/spousal support.

My H has been primary breadwinner. He owns his own business and can make a ton of money, and has. Other years he is less motivated and doesn’t. I’ve been working from home for twenty years. I worked for same company for almost fifteen of those years but they sent jobs overseas and it ended. Since, I’ve had a few jobs from home but less reliable for a lot of reasons. But, I still had little kids and cost of daycare would have eaten majority of my pay so it didn’t seem to make sense. Plus I would have to take off if they got sick, summers, etc. so we decided I should continue to work from home. (Which, btw, he started saying I was unwilling to work outside the home.  Not true. Was a joint decision and twenty years ago he pushed this (kids are spread out).

I stopped my previous position right before end of the year and started looking for something new. I got one but they tried to change terms and it didn’t work and I have a couple that are midway but they’re on hold with pandemic and I have no idea if they will be there when we come out of this, let alone if the businesses will even survive.

H stopped working during pandemic. Kind of the couple of weeks before.  Coworkers were on vacation, he was jealous so he didn’t work. We were going away before pandemic but he had a meltdown and left for four days the week before the trip. I canceled it. He spent thirty percent of the trip money the four days he was gone.

He could work from home but he won’t. He has no money. I have some from a small inheritance. But he makes about 5-6 times what I make in a normal year (sometimes 10x). He spends every dime he can on fun stuff.

Anyway, I can share more details, but just trying to give a feel.

I am concerned about two things. First, will he likely have to give me spousal support?  We’ve been married twenty-six years. And, if he decides to not return to his job, will that mean he will have not have to give me support?  Or, if he takes a job paying a lot less?

I’m trying to get a job, but obviously challenging right now. Appreciate any help. Thanks!

[kells76]

Hey UBPDHelp,

You can check out expertlaw.com and avvo.com. I think expertlaw is kind of like here, where it's peer-based but experienced, and avvo I believe is actual lawyers. Both should have message board/chat type functions and be anonymous, though you will likely have to post at least state location (possibly county) for accurate info.

Hope this helps;

kells76

[GaGrl]

There is a legal Q&A board. I have not used it, but others on here have used it and I'm sure one of them has the name and perhaps the link.

Some states have a formula or guideline for spousal support. In most cases, the goal is to provide support while the spouse obtains training, education, certifications, etc. In order to become self-supporting. So the number of years of support might be tied to that.

As to his income...if the income varies year to year, there will probably be a calculation based on an average of his reported earnings over five years, and as compared to your income. If he isn't working but has a history of solid earnings, the court can "impute" an income -- assign an income that the person could reasonably be expected to earn. This happened some years ago when a doctor refused to work in the medical field and took a job flipping burgers at McDonald's to keep from paying his wife alimony...didn't work.

Also, as you start thinking about settlement terms, don't forget to include educational expenses for your children through college/post high school training, and their health insurance up to age 25. How will that be addressed?

[worriedStepmom]

Also, as you start thinking about settlement terms, don't forget to include educational expenses for your children through college/post high school training, and their health insurance up to age 25. How will that be addressed?

This is state specific.  In my state, there is no legal ability to force a parent to pay support/educational expenses/health care after the child graduates from high school.  It is very rare to see that in a divorce settlement here.

[ForeverDad]

Good that you have been reminded to verify what your state does or does not require.  I'd like to add that you must be cautious about volunteering terms in any settlement or final decree that put you at a disadvantage.  Sure, you may end up with some disadvantageous terms in your decree, but don't volunteer them!

These days alimony is perceived by the courts more as a transitional time from married life to post-marriage life.  The concept of lifelong alimony after long marriages lingers on only in a few states, though investigate and verify your state's process.  Generally alimony is only for, at most, half the length of the marriage and can even be much less.  So probably best for you to cast alimony as you go through the divorce process as a transition period to assist Ex in establishing her own home and finding work, not a reward or compensation for a long marriage.  Note, "home" does not mean castle or mansion, it can be as simple as an affordable place to live.

Sometimes you may have to support her getting certified or educated for a career, such as a year or two of tuition, priced at the local or community expense level, not Ivy League College sky-high levels.  In any deals, make sure you know what the maximum costs are, set price limits to the local inexpensive comparables.  There was one dad here many years ago who agreed to pay school expenses, figuring they would be only a few hundred dollars per year.  Ex then immediately enrolled their child in a private school and he got stuck with high tuition costs and the court just looked at him and essentially ruled, "You agreed she would handle school decisions and that you would pay the costs, you're stuck."

I was married 15 years when separated and 18 years before the final decree.  I hoped the calcs would be based on 15 but for some reason they used 18.  However, the lawyers used 2 months for every year, so alimony lasted 3 years.  Just about right for transition from married to post married life.  (After a decade she still hates me but that's no surprise.  Two more years before our child becomes an adult and all strings will have aged out.)

[trappeddad]

i have used justanswer.com for advice on a variety of topics   i think it's $34/month.    they offer family law advice and are limited on what they say, but you can ask specific questions and do not have much to lose at that price and answer quickly.   

[UBPDHelp]

Hey UBPDHelp,

You can check out expertlaw.com and avvo.com. I think expertlaw is kind of like here, where it's peer-based but experienced, and avvo I believe is actual lawyers. Both should have message board/chat type functions and be anonymous, though you will likely have to post at least state location (possibly county) for accurate info.

Hope this helps

It does, thank you. I’m trying to be patient but they keep pushing the reopening date and I just want a feel for my options.

Will report back if I succeed to share in case others need info...

Thanks again!

[UBPDHelp]

There is a legal Q&A board. I have not used it, but others on here have used it and I'm sure one of them has the name and perhaps the link.

Some states have a formula or guideline for spousal support. In most cases, the goal is to provide support while the spouse obtains training, education, certifications, etc. In order to become self-supporting. So the number of years of support might be tied to that.

As to his income...if the income varies year to year, there will probably be a calculation based on an average of his reported earnings over five years, and as compared to your income. If he isn't working but has a history of solid earnings, the court can "impute" an income -- assign an income that the person could reasonably be expected to earn. This happened some years ago when a doctor refused to work in the medical field and took a job flipping burgers at McDonald's to keep from paying his wife alimony...didn't work.

Also, as you start thinking about settlement terms, don't forget to include educational expenses for your children through college/post high school training, and their health insurance up to age 25. How will that be addressed?

Thanks...yes, his income varies depending on how motivated he is. I don’t want to take all his money but I’m too old to start a new career and yet still have elementary school age kids. I’ve worked from home for a long time, but it’s work at home pay opposed to his. It’s not a punishment in my eyes, I just want to be able to survive. I will get a job as soon as I can and will go out of the house, even though that has risks cause kids still get sick and have summer vacation, etc., but will have to figure it out.

It’s just we live in an expensive part of the country and I will never be able to afford a place to live, or to live, without help.

I’m a little nervous that he will only have to provide spousal support for a few years. I’m about 15 years from retirement, so the thought of having to earn more as I approach 60 with kids still in college is a bit daunting. His income will grow, assuming he’s doesn’t quit.

Again, I don’t want to punish him, but I have made a lot of sacrifices and done a ton of work at home, so just stinks if I’m financially punished.  It’s not like I’m 30 and can start over. Stinks.

Regardless, thank you for the info.

I believe our state allows for college expenses. Seeing as we paid out of pocket for the older two, I assume that would be easy to show that’s the expectation for the younger two. Will see what a lawyer says.

Thank you!

[UBPDHelp]

i have used justanswer.com for advice on a variety of topics   i think it's $34/month.    they offer family law advice and are limited on what they say, but you can ask specific questions and do not have much to lose at that price and answer quickly.   

This sounds interesting. Thank you for the info!

[UBPDHelp]

Good that you have been reminded to verify what your state does or does not require.  I'd like to add that you must be cautious about volunteering terms in any settlement or final decree that put you at a disadvantage.  Sure, you may end up with some disadvantageous terms in your decree, but don't volunteer them!

I don’t want much. I just want help.

Scenario one —

H makes average 200,000 over last five years.
I make 40,000 average over last five years.

Average price of house in state is 550,000. I can’t afford that or anything near that. I’ve looked at houses around 200,000. They potentially have problems, which is scary, but I’m okay with not the best house. I’d have to sleep on the couch so the kids can have their own rooms (boy and girl, preteens). I’m okay with that. I don’t need a fancy car or vacations or new clothes. I need a roof, and food and health care. And my kiddos.

But I don’t know if I can support three people on 40,000. And my older two are not 100% self sufficient yet either. I’d have more relief if he had to give me some money every month. But a little bit for a few years is not much help after 26 years marriage. Finances holding me back. I feel like a fool.

Knowing this possible scenario, what would you concede? Expect?  What would a negotiation look like? 

If you’d be willing to share your thoughts, that would be great.

Thank you for your help.

[Turkish]

This is state specific.  In my state, there is no legal ability to force a parent to pay support/educational expenses/health care after the child graduates from high school.  It is very rare to see that in a divorce settlement here.

Neither in California, yet that didn't stop my buddy's uBPDx taking him to court to pay for their son to go to a state school over 2 hours away, CSU Chico... Even though they lived less than 20 minutes from CSU Hayward, and a local CC which he had convinced their son to start at until mom got involved. He spent $5k on a lawyer until his lawyer warned him, "there actually is a case like this where the mother won and dad had to pay. We may win, but there's a possibility that the judge might rule against us..." All because mom wanted their son to have "the college experience."

Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

[UBPDHelp]

Neither in California, yet that didn't stop my buddy's uBPDx taking him to court to pay for their son to go to a state school over 2 hours away, CSU Chico... Even though they lived less than 20 minutes from CSU Hayward, and a local CC which he had convinced their son to start at until mom got involved. He spent $5k on a lawyer until his lawyer warned him, "there actually is a case like this where the mother won and dad had to pay. We may win, but there's a possibility that the judge might rule against us..." All because mom wanted their son to have "the college experience."

Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

Thanks Turkish, ouch.  Not surprising she would try to stick it to him. Saddest is using the kid as a pawn in the game.

This may hurt me most. We sent and paid for our oldest two to go to good schools. I wanted state school (which happens to be considered a public ivy so wasn’t exactly slack) because we paid out of pocket. H insisted they go to the best schools they got into with price tags between $200-250K for the four years. He makes 5x the money, took extra clients to pay for it, but we sacrificed a lot during those years, too, including getting behind on bills here and there. 

So, I assume that sets some kind of precedent that we would pay for the younger two’s college. How much, idk.

What do you know about alimony?  I’m going to need help, I’m willing to work FT, but after working from home for twenty years (last ten mostly full time) I don’t have a wide skill set, can’t make as much as he does (not close) and am kind of too old to go back to school (I went to college).

I’m not looking to stick it to him. I’m just looking to survive. Besides whether I’ll even get alimony, my next fear is that it will be short term (we are married 26 years). I’d rather have a little less for longer. Is this something that can be done?  I just don’t want to be a few years from retirement, lose support, but not actually be able to make more to pay for my housing, etc. 

Any suggestions are welcome. Thank you!

[PeteWitsend]

...
I’m not looking to stick it to him. I’m just looking to survive. Besides whether I’ll even get alimony, my next fear is that it will be short term (we are married 26 years). I’d rather have a little less for longer. Is this something that can be done?  I just don’t want to be a few years from retirement, lose support, but not actually be able to make more to pay for my housing, etc. 

Any suggestions are welcome. Thank you!

If you can arrange it on the DL, I really think it's worth the time & money to pay an attorney for an hour consultation. 

Not every state allows for alimony/maintenance as a regular part of a divorce settlement; in my state, it's only on the table if one party doesn't work at all or there is documented abuse or infidelity. 

Regardless though, most -if not all - states have a formula to calculate alimony/support owed based on a number of factors: length of the marriage, children, fault, income disparity, available assets, etc.  Your attorney should be able to use this to give you a range of outcomes, and examples of how judges have interpreted issues between the spouses that don't easily into the formula. 

[PeteWitsend]

I don’t want much. I just want help.

Scenario one —

H makes average 200,000 over last five years.
I make 40,000 average over last five years.

Average price of house in state is 550,000. I can’t afford that or anything near that. I’ve looked at houses around 200,000. They potentially have problems, which is scary, but I’m okay with not the best house. I’d have to sleep on the couch so the kids can have their own rooms (boy and girl, preteens). I’m okay with that. I don’t need a fancy car or vacations or new clothes. I need a roof, and food and health care. And my kiddos.

But I don’t know if I can support three people on 40,000. And my older two are not 100% self sufficient yet either. I’d have more relief if he had to give me some money every month. But a little bit for a few years is not much help after 26 years marriage. Finances holding me back. I feel like a fool.

Knowing this possible scenario, what would you concede? Expect?  What would a negotiation look like? 

If you’d be willing to share your thoughts, that would be great.

Thank you for your help.

There are a lot of potential outcomes here; if you got the house, and primary custody of your minor kids, you'd have to draw up a budget documenting the cost of maintaining the household for the kids, at least until they're 18.  I think that's a reasonable ask.  He'd have to pay support to help you maintain at least that, probably also have to pay some compensation to you for the length of the marriage as well. 

You could maybe get the house free of any of his interest, so you'd be expected to sell the house at some point to get the remainder of what he owes you. 

The length of your marriage, and the fact that you worked from home to support the family likely weigh in your favor for the outcome here as well. 

Be prepared though to having trouble collecting, especially if he's self-employed.  It's easy to garnish someone's salary/wages to pay support, but hard if they are self-employed, or business owners, and can play with the numbers to understate them greatly. 

I know of situations where one spouse retires early to screw the other, or wastes marital assets during the divorce period to leave less "pie" to divide. 

In my own case, things didn't go "scorched earth"... BPDxw came out in her initial filings looking to fight dirty, but I think as soon as she got her first monthly invoice from her lawyer and saw how much fighting dirty costs, she quickly became a lot more reasonable during the settlement process. 

The cost, and it seems fear of the judge kept her honest.  I consider myself a bit lucky here; I realized when I saw the signs she was too cheap to fight that the worst case scenarios I feared likely wouldn't come to pass. 

[worriedStepmom]

Have you looked at your state guidelines for child support?  If you have primary custody, you will likely be entitled to child support for as long as you have minor children in the home. 

[MeandThee29]

This is state specific.  In my state, there is no legal ability to force a parent to pay support/educational expenses/health care after the child graduates from high school.  It is very rare to see that in a divorce settlement here.

Same here. My attorney wasn't a fond of putting in that because state law didn't require it, and he had argued quite a few cases post-divorce (some in appeal and malpractice) where people got into trouble later because of life changes. It's different than going back to modify child support or alimony in my state because it's not required. He always told me that he wanted the agreement to be something that was going to hopefully hold up for a long time (no custody or alimony in mine), so because of that and other reasons, we took all of that out.

If perchance out of the kindness of their heart the other person wants to help that way, good. But requiring that might be an issue. We found out during mine that my ex could drop kids over 18 from his health insurance without notice, so out that went without hesitation.

[MeandThee29]

I don’t want much. I just want help.

Scenario one —

H makes average 200,000 over last five years.
I make 40,000 average over last five years.

Average price of house in state is 550,000. I can’t afford that or anything near that. I’ve looked at houses around 200,000. They potentially have problems, which is scary, but I’m okay with not the best house. I’d have to sleep on the couch so the kids can have their own rooms (boy and girl, preteens). I’m okay with that. I don’t need a fancy car or vacations or new clothes. I need a roof, and food and health care. And my kiddos.

But I don’t know if I can support three people on 40,000. And my older two are not 100% self sufficient yet either. I’d have more relief if he had to give me some money every month. But a little bit for a few years is not much help after 26 years marriage. Finances holding me back. I feel like a fool.

Knowing this possible scenario, what would you concede? Expect?  What would a negotiation look like? 

Ask your attorney and be completely forthcoming as they need the whole picture. Early on I provided mine with pay stubs, tax returns, and a budget. I actually had two years where I made less than that in an expensive area. Every month had it's challenges. Periodically friends and family helped. But no child support (kids too old) and the state guidelines said no alimony, so that was that. I was pretty broke by the time the divorce was final.  Better now, thankfully.

[UBPDHelp]

Thank you all.  I’m not entirely worried about college because I think I can show that we would do this since we did for the older two. I’m also not opposed to state school and who knows in 6-7 years.

But now the bad news. I reached out anonymously to a couple of boards. The second lawyer to respond recommended my H’s associate as a great divorce attorney. My fear in reaching out was tipping my hand and my H finding out before I was ready. I’m fairly confident it’s okay as I used a pseudonym with associated email address, but still it kind of shook me.

On a strange note, my H always tells me what a bad lawyer this guy is and how he always has to help him. And, yet he seems in high regard. I’ve seen my H gaslight me, his partner, other family, but now wonder how far it reaches.

On the good side, I did get a couple of other names that seem good.

I’m curious if anyone has thoughts about gender. I feel that I might be more comfortable with a woman (gory details), but want to ensure they can stand up and fight. Definitely not saying a woman can’t, just didn’t know how much, if at all, I should consider gender or just suck it up and solely go based on their ability to stand firm.

One of the lawyers is a woman and experienced and reviews say work hard and good. Just don’t want too nice. LMK if you have any thoughts. Thanks!

[ForeverDad]

Just because the older two kids were able to attend expensive colleges does not obligate you parents to the same for the younger kids.  Over the years the family's financial status can and will change.

Neither I nor my ex had much money so we never tried to add clauses for college in our decree or subsequent orders.  He's now an adult and has plans to attend a local community university.  I kept urging him to apply for scholarships but I don't think he did.  He is graduating and an adult now, I'm retired out of work and so I may be a safety net but sure not a hammock.

You should get a framework in final decree for future college or university but don't obligate yourself overmuch.  Who knows how much you will earn then, or even how much your stbEx might earn then.  How would you handle finances if you and ex send children to an expensive college the first year and then he stops paying for later years?  Would you be stuck with the extra cost?

Yes, get the best child support you can, that is relatively simple calcs so don't let him claim poverty, empty pockets or whatever.

You've been married well over 20 years, that was the old standard for a "long term" marriage.  You could get as much as 13 or more years alimony, these days likely something less.  If you try to stretch alimony over more years, be forewarned that inflation is expected to kick in soon, an order for $xxxx now could feel like $xx some ten years down the road.  How would inflation be factored in to keep up with the cost of living?

Remember not to share your expectations or other details ("TMI") with your stbEx.  You could reveal what you're interested in and he might overreact and try to block especially those things.

There was a good comment about children's healthcare.  Parents can potentially carry the children up to age 26.  Make sure that is included in child support calcs, or that he pays for it separately.

Society has lowered expectations for dad to alternate weekends.  I had 72 hour weekends in my temp orders, some dads report getting less.  Based on his behaviors do you want his weekends short?  Many disordered dad try to get as much time as possible thinking it will greatly reduce their child support (it doesn't lower CS very much) and then once the posturing in court is past they give up some of what they demanded.  So you might end up with more parenting time than what ends up getting listed on paper.

It's very hard to get sole custody early in a case, seems courts are reluctant to discourage a parent from being involved in parenting unless there is substantive abuse, neglect or endangerment.  For the sake of normal parents, I can't blame them.  However, if you can demonstrate reasons why you need to be more than standard primary parent (which most mothers are defaulted to) you may also manage to secure Decision Making or Tie Breaker status, especially if you experience obstruction and high conflict.

[Turkish]

The inflation angle is interesting. Does that ever factor into CS calculations? I have 12 years left with D8 (and S10). I'm a little concerned she might go back for more though my cost for their health care has increased by about $200/mo over the past 6 years when we filed. It is included in the calculation for non-cash support.

[UBPDHelp]

Just because the older two kids were able to attend expensive colleges does not obligate you parents to the same for the younger kids.  Over the years the family's financial status can and will change.

Neither I nor my ex had much money so we never tried to add clauses for college in our decree or subsequent orders.  He's now an adult and has plans to attend a local community university.  I kept urging him to apply for scholarships but I don't think he did.  He is graduating and an adult now, I'm retired out of work and so I may be a safety net but sure not a hammock.

You should get a framework in final decree for future college or university but don't obligate yourself overmuch.  Who knows how much you will earn then, or even how much your stbEx might earn then.  How would you handle finances if you and ex send children to an expensive college the first year and then he stops paying for later years?  Would you be stuck with the extra cost?

Thanks ForeverDad.  I’m okay with a less expensive school but would address now obviously what could be expected.

I’m really not trying to make it more difficult on him, but set a standard. And college, while important, isn’t my main focus. Spousal support/child support is.

Yes, get the best child support you can, that is relatively simple calcs so don't let him claim poverty, empty pockets or whatever.

You've been married well over 20 years, that was the old standard for a "long term" marriage.  You could get as much as 13 or more years alimony, these days likely something less.  If you try to stretch alimony over more years, be forewarned that inflation is expected to kick in soon, an order for $xxxx now could feel like $xx some ten years down the road.  How would inflation be factored in to keep up with the cost of living?

Good point about inflation.

I’m throwing out some numbers for illustrative purposes only.

H makes 150,000

I make 40,000

But H has been known to make 250,000-300,000.

My thought would be to request an amount based upon 150,000/40,000

Then give him anything between 151,000-199,000.  But if he goes over 200,000, then I get a percentage. My point is that he minimally makes 150,000 and encourage him to make more, but if he makes so much more (he is capable and has) he then gives me a lesser percentage.

I’m guaranteed on 150,000 and he can make more without penalty, but he can’t do extravagant and only give me on 150,000 if he’s making 300,000.

He structured a deal like this before (was way higher figures, but same idea). Does that seem reasonable?

If I could get half number of years, it would get me close to retirement so I would be happy with that.

Remember not to share your expectations or other details ("TMI") with your stbEx.  You could reveal what you're interested in and he might overreact and try to block especially those things.

Eventually it will be all lawyers. I say nothing now.

There was a good comment about children's healthcare.  Parents can potentially carry the children up to age 26.  Make sure that is included in child support calcs, or that he pays for it separately.

Yes, for sure.

What about continuing life insurance until kids are out of college?  I’d like that in case something happened.

Society has lowered expectations for dad to alternate weekends.  I had 72 hour weekends in my temp orders, some dads report getting less.  Based on his behaviors do you want his weekends short?  Many disordered dad try to get as much time as possible thinking it will greatly reduce their child support (it doesn't lower CS very much) and then once the posturing in court is past they give up some of what they demanded.  So you might end up with more parenting time than what ends up getting listed on paper.

It's very hard to get sole custody early in a case, seems courts are reluctant to discourage a parent from being involved in parenting unless there is substantive abuse, neglect or endangerment.  For the sake of normal parents, I can't blame them.  However, if you can demonstrate reasons why you need to be more than standard primary parent (which most mothers are defaulted to) you may also manage to secure Decision Making or Tie Breaker status, especially if you experience obstruction and high conflict.

I’m not opposed to him having some weekends and holidays. He’s mostly an okay dad — think the charming side. But my third child hates him and my youngest is mostly unaware but I see flickers lately.

So, if he doesn’t make them the focus of his dysregulstions (because I am not) then okay. I have code words and code text messages so they can communicate if ever needed. We would have to implement stronger rules and protocols.

On a side note. I have excessive rage text messages with horrific language that are basically verbal abuse. Can that be of value?

I feel it would hurt him professionally which is not in anyone’s best interest, but it also may be a point of leverage.

I really don’t want to be nasty or unfair, but I know he will be so want to stock my toolbox.

Thanks for help and advice.

I love a good hammock...nice job with your kiddos!

[GaGrl]

I had a clause in my settlement where child support was tied to the National Cost of Living Index. It really worked for me.

There is just so much to consider!

[UBPDHelp]

I had a clause in my settlement where child support was tied to the National Cost of Living Index. It really worked for me.

There is just so much to consider!

That’s a good idea.

Again, I move between hatred and feeling sorry for him. The feelings of happy and fun are short lived anymore. But, I’m not interested in hurting him or punishing him. I just want support.

I have always had some work from home job and contributed, albeit minimally in comparison.  But I have done every single kids doctors appointment, school function, extracurricular, sick day, middle of the night. He went to each kids first newborn checkup and some of the initial visits with a specialist, when needed, maybe 3 or 4. I’ve done ALL laundry, cooking, cleaning, shopping. I pay the bills, which I believe he wanted to make me responsible when something goes wrong, I am to blame. Usually it’s him not bringing home money or spending it on unnecessary things. Mid pandemic, he hasn’t worked for two months (aka no money coming in, much by choice), he buys a piece of memorabilia for four hundred dollars. That would have paid the electric bill or cable bill or groceries. He sent me a text in the middle of the night saying he thought he needed it. Knew it was irresponsible but he didn’t care. I ignored the text because I wasn’t okay with it but didn’t want to be responsible for telling him no. He does this a lot.

At beginning of pandemic he was showing intense physical tics of stress. He had a few angry outbursts where he broke things (we didn’t speak for eight days). One was a tv. It was after the first round and he came close to apologizing (he never does, maybe a handful of times in 30 years), I told him that I was one hundred percent not okay with breaking things. I let him stew that for a while. He lived with the broken tv for ten days but then bought a new one. There are more details in my other thread, this is just to nutshell his irresponsibility that he accuses me of. I’m sick of it.

How did you feel with your final result?  What other things became so important but maybe wouldn’t be thought of?

Do you mind sharing how you ended in divorce?  And did you serve or let BPD spouse do it?  I’m thinking my uBPD H may respond better if he does it. Idk.

Thanks for your insight.

[ForeverDad]

In some states throwing tantrums and breaking things during a domestic dispute got the perp arrested.  Can anyone here cite a law or principle that was broken, perhaps considered at least a Threat of DV if not DV?  Maybe destruction of marital property?  Harassment?  Intimidation?  Some level of actionable violence?

When my then-spouse found out I had called 911, she took the handset, disconnected my call and threw it in my direction.  It hit the wall and broke apart.  I never saw it again, not even in the trash.  As it turned out, neither police nor court were concerned about that action.

[GaGrl]

My then-husband had moved out before I filed -- we were in marriage counseling, and our MC helped with the decision to separate. During the separation, then-H came to my house one evening and had been drinking. He became belligerent, and I called 911. He pulled the phone from the wall, but the call had connected, and our county responded to interrupted calls. Police showed up, then-H had an uncooperative attitude and nearly got arrested (wouldn't take his hands out of his pockets). Police took me into another room, asked what I wanted, and I said I just wanted him to leave. Our three-year-old son witnessed all this, and at age 37, he still remembers it.

After that, I filed, and I served him the petition, which he signed. We played out the rest of the divorce quite well, but that was his low moment, and it scared me.

[Turkish]

When my then-spouse found out I had called 911, she took the handset, disconnected my call and threw it in my direction.  It hit the wall and broke apart.  I never saw it again, not even in the trash.  As it turned out, neither police nor court were concerned about that action.

What she did was a felony. You can't take away someone's ability to call for help.

[UBPDHelp]

In some states throwing tantrums and breaking things during a domestic dispute got the perp arrested.  Can anyone here cite a law or principle that was broken, perhaps considered at least a Threat of DV if not DV?  Maybe destruction of marital property?  Harassment?  Intimidation?  Some level of actionable violence?

Thanks ForeverDad.  I cannot think of anyway his behavior is okay, but as someone else said (so sorry I don’t remember who  ), I married him. I could have left dozens of times but I didn’t. I kept believing my want was enough. It’s not. And, honestly, if I weren’t scared how to support myself and kids, I would have been done long before.

I don’t actually want to punish him, I was hoping for a negotiating tactic. If he gets arrested, he’ll in effect completely lose his business. That doesn’t work in my favor. I don’t feel physically threatened, and would not hesitate to call 911 if I did or I felt my kids were. That said, he believes his connection to me is the source of his state in life, which by most people’s standards would be great. But he is empty and constantly tries to fill his void with money/things and sex. In the middle of it, as you know, it’s “fixing” the current need. If we just take this expensive vacation, then he’ll be relaxed and can focus on work and family. Invariably something would be wrong with the vacation and the void never filled. It was hard seeing this in the moment. Take a step back and you can see dozens of ruined vacations, holidays, birthdays, family events. Ruined relationships.

I’m to blame too. I was not strong enough to see or do anything different. That is not a flippant, “I’m sorry you felt that way”, hollow blame. I was responsible to protect my kids. I didn’t. But damn it, I have to now. It’s gotten so bad.

When my then-spouse found out I had called 911, she took the handset, disconnected my call and threw it in my direction.  It hit the wall and broke apart.  I never saw it again, not even in the trash.  As it turned out, neither police nor court were concerned about that action.

That is crazy. Did you feel that at any point she was “outside” her body during this?  My H generally doesn’t get to the point of throwing/breaking things (I haven’t called 911 either, which may very well have resulted in the same), but when he has, he has been so angry and you can almost see he’s not there. In fact, he’s taken up this since pandemic a couple of times. Not directed to anyone, but broken dishes and a tv. He got angry about a little thing, took the remote and threw it at the tv, breaking the screen. When he finally came around (save you the details), he blamed the tv on something entirely different than what happened. I’m torn between, he is simply trying to change the story to absolve himself so he can live with himself.  He’s trying to convince me. Or, he really doesn’t remember. All of the options suck. And, a few of these more recent “rememberings” have bolstered or confirmed my suspicions that it is him that doesn’t always remember.  He always tells me that I said something else (sometimes mid conversation), and then talks circles around me.

The thing is, I often believed him that I just forgot what I said or just didn’t feel like the battle that would ensue by correcting. I am paying more attention now. And, even if I mis-state something or he misunderstands, he doesn’t allow clarification. I had a discussion (debate) with him yesterday about why I told him the electrician would do something two different ways. He wanted to know why I believed this and couldn’t I see it was wrong. I calmly told him that the first call I was told option 1. When that didn’t happen (which was surprising), I phoned to follow up and was told something slightly different (by the same person). I told him first they said this and when I followed up they told me this. He just insisted I was lying and somehow responsible for how they do business. Where do you go with that?

But, had I had this conversation with someone else I believe they would have understood what happened and at the very least allowed explanation. Darn JADEing, but sometimes you need an explanation.  Am I the only person who believes this?  

Sorry for the ramble. So much spinning in my head and it all comes pouring out.

Bless you for chiming in and lending assistance. It is so very appreciated.

It truly is the only place where people understand this BPD(ish) dynamic. Thank you.

[UBPDHelp]

My then-husband had moved out before I filed -- we were in marriage counseling, and our MC helped with the decision to separate. During the separation, then-H came to my house one evening and had been drinking. He became belligerent, and I called 911. He pulled the phone from the wall, but the call had connected, and our county responded to interrupted calls. Police showed up, then-H had an uncooperative attitude and nearly got arrested (wouldn't take his hands out of his pockets). Police took me into another room, asked what I wanted, and I said I just wanted him to leave. Our three-year-old son witnessed all this, and at age 37, he still remembers it.

After that, I filed, and I served him the petition, which he signed. We played out the rest of the divorce quite well, but that was his low moment, and it scared me.

Wow GaGrl, I’m sorry this happened to you. I’m so glad you were strong and ended things. I wish I had earlier. My threshold for bs is pretty high I guess. But, truthfully in the first 15-17 years things were pretty good. The red flags were miniature and I certainly ignored them because benefits outweighed. Doesn’t matter much now. I just want my life back. That’s all.

Thank you for bouncing all around my posts finding me and sharing your experience and support. It is so appreciated.   

[UBPDHelp]

What she did was a felony. You can't take away someone's ability to call for help.

Agree!  But I bet it happens a lot. My phone is always on me!

[Harri]

This thread reached the post limit and has been locked.  Part 2 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=344722.msg13111112#msg13111112

Thank you.