Home page of BPDFamily.com, online relationship supportMember registration here
March 29, 2024, 04:04:13 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Board Admins: Kells76, Once Removed, Turkish
Senior Ambassadors: Cat Familiar, EyesUp, SinisterComplex
  Help!   Boards   Please Donate Login to Post New?--Click here to register  
bing
Books most popular with members
104
Stop Caretaking the
Borderline or the Narcassist
Stop Walking
on Eggshells
Journey from
Abandonment to Healing
The Search for Real Self
Unmasking Personality Disorders

Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: The message blew our children’s world into a million pieces Part 4  (Read 758 times)
Enabler
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Living apart
Posts: 2790



« on: June 18, 2020, 10:40:26 AM »

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=345036.0

Clarification on professionals being utilised at the moment:

Mediator - Neutral, works for both of us to come up with a friendly deal - Seen him 3x2hrs (Oct17 / Nov17 / Nov19) - 2hr sessions £500. My W sends me emails with him CC'd keeping him up on the process... not sure the guy cares and doesn't charge for the time, he gets paid for mediation not giving advice over email... stayed neutral and gave no advice to her mails.

Co-Parenting & Family Therapist Specialist - mutually agreed to go - she focused on getting us apart, to then start work on co-parenting - 2x2hr sessions £125 an hour

Lawyer - Working for W - No idea on costs - No direct contact with her, advising in the background.

My W uses professionals or the threat of professionals at a stick to beat me with as she knows it erodes funds and knows that I am triggered by paying professionals for things that we can do ourselves... I change the oil and brakes on the car. She REGULARLY threatens to "hand it all over to her lawyers" and I regularly say "Okay, you do what you think you need to do". I figure that if she does, I will have a "reasonable amount of time" with which to source my own adviser. Currently a lot fo things are happening over email, the delays are becoming longer and longer as I take more and more time to consider language carefully and make sure I am as untriggered as possible.  

Time is on who's side? Well I am pretty comfortable, I have a great relationship with the kids, they love being with me and I am great at conflict resolution with them. I have fully documented the last 2 years and to a less extend the last 4 years inc parenting time, meals prepared, time in/out the home for both of us. I have agreement of 50/50 parenting and secured support from my employer to facilitate that. I am living in the 5 bed substantial family home WHICH THE CHILDREN LOVE, she is renting a small 3 bed house (which she has yet to take up tenancy of). I am not in a relationship with anyone else and thus have no pressing time agenda to get this done... she is, and likely does (probably from him). IF, that pressure becomes too great (emotionally and relationshiply (new word I just made up) then they will likely get together... this changes the financial element (and maybe how the children feel about her) dynamic of any deal. ALSO, time = time for her to ruminate = guilt and shame is an acid (much like anger... possibly because that's what it turns into). It is rotting her from the insides and she wants this to be done so she can drift off into a guilt and shame free existence. I don't have such feelings, and I've done a pretty good audit. So, I am not sure that time isn't on my side as long as I can give her a framework where she can feel like she gets the comfort of knowing she has fair access to the kids and I will not try and withhold that, and access to a finances until a deal is done... and that I will not attempt to stonewall that process.

I see this process as guiding  a ball downhill, occasionally it requires a pat on one side to say "noo, not that way". Trying to stop the ball didn't work... if the ball decides to go back up the hill, that's a different ball game with a whole set of different road humps... but not worth considering. To quote (roughly) FF from several months ago, I somewhat believe that she will accidentally get a divorce she doesn't actually want.

Enabler
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 12:54:00 PM by Cat Familiar » Logged

Enabler
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Living apart
Posts: 2790



« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2020, 10:44:30 AM »

Big fan of Jujitsu parenting skills and use them all the time on the kids. Works wonderfully. Is she pushing for mediation? Not sure.

Logged

Cat Familiar
Senior Ambassador
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 7480



« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2020, 10:58:15 AM »

Sorry to be a wet blanket, but you already are out of your depth, Enabler. You’ve got a lot of worldly skills, but divorce is an entirely new game and there’s lots of nuance that you have no experience with nor understanding about.

I agree. It’s pointless and expensive to litigate minor details.

But if your wife has already engaged the services of a solicitor, you could be at a serious disadvantage already.

Best to hire a lawyer now, so you won’t be looking for one on an emergency basis. And if you find someone you feel comfortable working with, you can limit the billable time by choice and definition of what you are willing to do and what oversight you desire.

You really have no idea of what curveballs can be directed at your head in a contentious divorce, which is likely what you’ll have.

I tried to do a collaborative divorce through legal aid with my ex. Unbeknownst to me, he hired the meanest pittbull attorney in town and sued me for support, physical injury he sustained working on the property, claimed a truck I bought entirely with funds received from an inheritance after our split was his, claimed entitlement to proceeds from an inheritance I used to buy land was equally his, in contradiction to State Law.

Many of these false claims would have been sorted out easily in court. But it sent me on multiple document searches to validate the provenance.

In addition, there were other milder forms of harassment. Once I got an attorney involved, he spoke to my ex’s attorney and much of that behavior ceased.

You are predicating your path on the supposition that your wife will be somewhat reasonable. That is not necessarily a valid assumption with a pwBPD once things began to heat up in a divorce battle. And they will—hopefully not in as extreme a manner as I experienced.



Logged

“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
defogging
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 202



« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2020, 12:28:09 PM »

Enabler - I jumped in because I think you're in over your head, based on my direct experience with divorce.  Please don't take that as an insult, you just don't have experience litigating divorce in your jurisdiction (nor do I, nor does anyone else on this board).  You are in waaaaaaay over your head if your wife has an attorney advising her behind the scenes and you don't. 

It's not about what would be "rubber stamped" by a court.  It's about knowing how a court would rule in case it had to go to trial.  That sets your basic rights.  Once you understand your rights, then you can negotiate because you understand the minimum you should be seeking and you're confident to not settle for any less.

We settled everything in one mediation session.  We were able to do so because we each had a professional to advise us on what is reasonable in the court's eyes and what is not.  The best thing about having lawyers involved in my case, is my ex's lawyer is the one who keeps her in check.  Not my problem anymore to debate with her.  We have written rules in place.  If there is an issue my lawyer calls her lawyer and her lawyer explains to her that she cannot behave in this manner.  It's expensive, but it's been worth every penny for the peace I now have.  I don't have to debate with anyone.  I tell my lawyer what happened, the lawyers argue, then typically I hear nothing more and my ex behaves better.

What I see in your situation is the continued push/pull dynamic of the PD relationship.  Lots of back and forth and zero resolution.  If you want to continue that dynamic you are free to do that.  If you want resolution, and a fresh start for yourself and the kids, then a lawyer is the quickest route to that.  During my divorce, we bounced back and forth between her trying to get restraining orders based on false accusations and her wanting to stop the divorce and reconcile.  Lord knows how long that would have lasted without the courts involved.  Once you file for divorce and it's in the system, the court sets dates and will push it along.  That eliminates the push/pull and forces the resolution.

That said, I do think it's wise to be on these forums asking for advice on what to include in your settlement agreements.  The people here know what it's like to co (or parallel) parent with a PD.  I found that courts and therapists really don't understand the nuances of PD relationships, so there is definite value in the opinions on these forums.  My quick $.02 on that - I think you're on the right track to eliminate Right of First Refusal in your agreement.  I don't have it in mine, and all I've read on forums is that it creates headaches when the PD can step in and block any daycare or babysitting situation they want.





Logged

Yeah, I'm just gonna keep moving...today, tomorrow, and the next
GaGrl
Ambassador
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Posts: 5722



« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2020, 12:58:49 PM »

Bottom line...someone is going to have to make the point to your wife that "your parenting time is yours, and my parenting time is mine. Now let's go from there."

In addition to guilt and shame, which is at work here -- I think it is very important to your wife as to how she "presents" to her church colleagues, friends, community - - "face" is very important to her. A mediated settlement to her advantage (loosey-goosey and undefined as to the girls' availability to her) lets her present to everyone that this is a friendly divorce, co-parenting in the best way, "isn't it just wonderful that we can do this so well?" And then she has unfettered access to the girls (and to you and your house), can ask/expect you to take evenings on her time when she wants to be out with OM, and nothing really changes for her at all except she moves into a new house.

Magical thinking.

Seems to me the biggest question right now is WHO will tell her that her thinking is magical (in more concrete terms)?

Her lawyer won't.

The mediator probably won't -- unless you put forward a parenting plan as a starting point.

You don't want to, because...why?

Next steps?
Logged


"...what's past is prologue; what to come,
In yours and my discharge."
defogging
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 202



« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2020, 02:44:21 PM »

Bottom line...someone is going to have to make the point to your wife that "your parenting time is yours, and my parenting time is mine. Now let's go from there."

You don't want to, because...why?

Excellent point here.  I will add that I discovered it ultimately had to be me that told her.  My ex constantly tries to be ever present in our kids' lives, and never ceases her attempts to control them (and me).  Many times I've heard my kids say "Mom said I have to practice xyz while I'm at your house" or "Mom says we need to do (insert whatever)".  I've made it clear to the kids that Mom does not make the rules at Dad's house, and we get to decide what we do.  I've also had to tell my ex, in front of the kids, to please stop telling them what they should be doing during my parenting time, when she is reminding them of their "duties" at our exchanges.  This infuriates her, but it's a boundary I will continue to enforce.  Enforcing this doesn't have anything to do with changing my ex, as I know she won't stop.  I hold this boundary so my kids can develop the ability to think for themselves and understand nobody should control them.  If I give in, then nothing has really changed and we are still under her thumb.

Lawyers, therapists, mediators, etc...they won't help you solve that part of it.  I've been advocating for a lawyer here, but in reality they are a tool you utilize for their knowledge of law and ability to advocate for you.  They are a very powerful tool, but they can't fix every little thing.  They don't see all the behind the scenes manipulation and attempts at control.  In my case my ex is very crafty about keeping this all private, sadly I'm the only one who really sees it so it is on me to check things back into place.
Logged

Yeah, I'm just gonna keep moving...today, tomorrow, and the next
defogging
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 202



« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2020, 02:59:42 PM »

Forgot to add:  I thought of something else that is very useful in my parenting plan.  We agreed on specific schools the kids would attend through high school.  My ex has a history of idealizing things, then once the smallest slight happens she blows everything up and starts over elsewhere.  We were on our third school district when we divorced, that is over the course of four years of having kids in elementary school.  She destroyed the relationships with the first two.  She is currently happy with it and wanted it in the parenting plan, I was very happy to include it because I know at some point she'll get mad and try to change everything.  If it wasn't in the agreement, she could just move elsewhere and enroll them there, now she's not allowed to unless I agree.

It doesn't have to be school related - but I'd advise you to think about anything that is currently in place that you don't want to change.  If you can, get her to agree to it in writing.  The school thing gives me a lot of peace of mind.
Logged

Yeah, I'm just gonna keep moving...today, tomorrow, and the next
Fian
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 627


« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2020, 03:36:58 PM »

Count me as one who thinks you should involve a lawyer ASAP.  You seem to think that everything will be status quo until you agree to a plan.  What would you do if you arrive home and you find that she moved the kids out?  And her lawyer tells you it is because of obscure rule x that kicked in when you said y during a communication?  Sure, you may be able to reverse it, but in the mean time, no kids, and it might last weeks/months before you can see them again.
Logged
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2020, 03:56:02 PM »

Count me as one who thinks you should involve a lawyer ASAP.  

Ditto

Maybe not "involved" but hired and on your side ready to do anything.  Note, I wouldn't tell her yet that you have hired one.

Best,

FF
Logged

Cat Familiar
Senior Ambassador
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 7480



« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2020, 04:09:37 PM »

I don’t mean to pile on you, Enabler, but rather I want to emphasize the vulnerable position you are in without legal representation.

Every lawyer, when taking their first bar review prep course, has heard the following adage: “The man who represents himself has a fool for a client.”

This was demonstrated to me personally when I received a subpoena for a deposition regarding a neighbor’s mischief with a “borrowed” tractor. I was superficially involved in the litigation because this neighbor had used said tractor on our property in one of the jobs he performed with it. It left our property intact and the troubles occurred elsewhere.

I was surprised when my husband, who was planning to accompany me to the deposition, and is an excellent attorney, insisted that I hire an experienced litigator to serve as my representation.

Reading the complaint, he foresaw a loophole where I could be pulled into the litigation. I found an excellent attorney and since then, we’ve used his wife’s services for our estate planning. We walked through potential landmines and I learned how to respond in a deposition by giving the least amount of information possible.

Fortunately it all went smoothly and my lawyer only had to object to one question.

What seems obvious and apparent in the regular world is not necessarily representative of what goes on in the legal world.

I wouldn’t be surprised if that phrase that was included about getting your kids agreement wasn’t a “poison pill” suggested by your wife’s solicitor to be able to override your allotted custody time.

Logged

“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
Cat Familiar
Senior Ambassador
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 7480



« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2020, 04:28:12 PM »

And to bring up issues from the past—your wife has claimed you were “controlling” and she harbored unsafe feelings around you. However she has been fine letting you be in charge of the girls so she can have her alone time with the OM.

You must take into consideration the idea that she’s told her side of the story to friends and family and this might come up as an issue during divorce proceedings.

When feelings equal facts, you have no idea what a pwBPD can utilize in a courtroom when they suspect that they might not get exactly what they think they deserve.


Logged

“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
Skip
Site Director
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 8817


« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2020, 04:28:27 PM »

 Bullet: completed (click to insert in post) Professional advise.

You have long envisioned this divorce this as a chess match with a far inferior opponent (your wife) whom you feel you will outwit.

      I somewhat believe that she will accidentally get a divorce she doesn't actually want.~ Enabler

She has put you down for years, disrespected you. That was horrible. Vindication is important to you (as it would be to anyone). Your tactic is mostly passive resistance... wait her out, confuse her, watch her struggle.

But righteousness in a divorce is a fools game. Please don't underestimate how an opposing lawyer can say "enough with the passive resistance" and flip the status quo in a minute... and have her reversing course on the negotiations.

You are not competing with your wife on this... it's the court system you are in a chess match with.

Get a mature collaborative attorney to negotiate a settlement with her attorney and be done with it. Extract yourself from this game of wits, and move to a game of being practical, focusing on the macro issues, compromise on the micro-issues to get it done.

She is serving you one of the best deals I've seen since I've been on these boards. 50/50% and with her moving out. Get this deal signed before it goes away. There are a lot of people in the world who will tell her she can get a better deal and the more time that passes, the more likely she will hear them.

A good lawyer (you will need to do some footwork to find one) will come up with ideas to close the deal. For example, maybe you agree to a Wednesday dinner for 10 months as a transition period and trade that for phone call limitations.

Do the deal... don't play taekwondo.
Logged

 
defogging
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 202



« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2020, 04:49:14 PM »

What would you do if you arrive home and you find that she moved the kids out?

This right here is why I filed and put it in full view of the courts.  My lawyer had explained to me that while we're married my wife could do anything and it was legal.  Move somewhere with the kids, change schools/doctors/hire therapists, take out a bunch of debt, donate all my possessions, you name it.  My ex had been doing some mind-boggling things behind my back in the months prior like removing my name from joint bank accounts, opening her own, moving money around, demanding I give her POA over my personal accounts, trying to hire therapists for the kids without my knowledge, etc.  I discovered it only because I started receiving alerts from our banks, and received phone calls from therapists because they wanted to speak with both parents (thank goodness!)  My lawyer explained that once I filed, that would place a temporary injunction on everything.  Neither of us would be allowed to make any changes to our situation without justifying it to the court.  My ex had put so much fear into me that I felt paralyzed to make that decision, but deep down I knew I had to put a stop to it all.  It ended up being the best decision I've ever made, her behavior ceased immediately once other people had eyes on the situation.

I'm not saying you have to put your foot down hard like I did, but it isn't going to hurt anything to have a lawyer standing behind you to give advice.

I hope you know I'm not trying to pile on you here either.  It's just that I'm fresh out of that situation and I keenly remember how much better life got once I felt protected by my attorney.  I want you and your kids to achieve the best possible outcome.
Logged

Yeah, I'm just gonna keep moving...today, tomorrow, and the next
Enabler
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Living apart
Posts: 2790



« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2020, 08:09:05 AM »

What would you do if you arrive home and you find that she moved the kids out? 

I was tremendously fearful of this several years back. I was bad cop so my relationship with the kids wasn't overly balanced. PA would have been a sinch and I became INCREDIBLY paranoid of an unsupported temporary restraining order. Could this still happen? Yes of course she could try, and yes I would have to wait out potentially a long period of time to regain access to the kids... HOWEVER... what I know without any shadow of a doubt, is that the children would create merry hell if she tried that, and she knows this. D11 is already refusing to go to the new house and W is regularly making comments like "Well I don't even know whether or not D11 is even coming", and she hasn't bought her a bed for the new house yet as a consequence. So, I know this is a specific example, but I have no fear about that happening as if it did, it would backfire tremendously for her.

True or not (likely not) I'd imagine this is her perception, courts are where details, facts, evidence is required... dare I say it the truth is told... people put hands on Bibles and swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. This is where things are told, reality happens and fantasies are destroyed. The last thing she wants is for the hood to be lifted on this, and for people to find out the truth. Defoggings point about Church people and friends is very true.

Excerpt
Your tactic is mostly passive resistance... wait her out, confuse her, watch her struggle.

Or is my tactic perseverance... stand still, take fire, when she's exhausted and taking a nap walk forward on MY path (build relationship with kids, raise kids, secure financial future, nail down mental health), provide her with honest unpolished information (she actually needs as part of her choices, and in many instances requested), stand back and allow her to deal with the natural consequences of her choices.

Her - finances finances finances... use savings to rent house... spend money money money
Me - That money is saved for paying off mortgage which is due in Nov
Her -  What does that mean, what do we have to do about that, surely it doesn't involve all the money, that's my security! (Freak out)
Me - I filled out a form in Feb, I asked you to review that form and understand what I wrote and sign it, you did that and I sent it off.
Her - I don't understand what our options are
Me - I suggest you call the lender as you will not trust anything I tell you.
Her - Hours and hours on the phone to lender, lots of frustration

She now believes that 50/50 parenting is an answer to prayer... yes... my prayers. This has been agreed on email (from her), we have to work on the details and that may well happen in practice. As many of you have pointed out before my W may gift me some more time with kids, because it suits... I might just take that time.

Perseverance has taken me from a terrible place to a good place, it's hard (from my perspective) to say that it hasn't worked. One thing I know is that any sniff of aggression (including OVERT use of lawyers) will likely just be fuel on the fire.

Enabler 
Logged

formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2020, 09:05:56 AM »


Can you walk us through your thinking that has ended up with you not having a lawyer at least retained and ready?

All those other details about D11 not wanting/wanting...are good for you, but ...it's apples and oranges to the legal process.

Basically...Dude...finish this.  Get it signed. 

Best,

FF
Logged

Enabler
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Living apart
Posts: 2790



« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2020, 10:35:59 AM »

I think people started telling me to finish this a year ago... where would I be if I finished it then?

Disney dad with a tea midweek vs 50/50 parenting
Out of my home and zero chance of retaining it vs in my home and a possibility of retaining it

Years back we discussed opening the cage door... I did that however what I failed to do was push her out or actively encourage her out, i just said "the door is open". It's taken longer this way for sure.

There's a couple of things I'm aware of... there's a few things that can happen quickly but most things happen VERRRRRY slowly in the legal world. As touched upon in my previous post, RO's can happen quickly (that's a risk), information can be requested quickly, but no one can force anyone to provide it quickly... (and by means of information I am not talking about financial disclosures which I have provide with great haste only to not be met with the same courtesy)... I mean questions or demands can be asked and made quickly, but there is no pressure to respond quickly giving me time to consider and to consult wise counsel. Yes legal services provide wisdom and experience through a process (we have that in the form of a mediator), but lawyers also act as an emotional buffer and speed buffer. They naturally slow things down for the non-aggressor party. I can do that myself. My T has given me the number of a firm he was speaking to, who he believed specialised in dealing with such cases. At the moment I feel I have relatively clear thinking re how to proceed in the short/medium term, I am hesitant to upset that balance with a lawyer who may have different motivations.

Does that make any sense to anyone?

Enabler
Logged

defogging
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 202



« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2020, 10:45:09 AM »

One thing I know is that any sniff of aggression (including OVERT use of lawyers) will likely just be fuel on the fire.

I believe that is fear talking.  Do you see the ridiculous double standard that your wife has a lawyer but somehow you feel you're not allowed one?  You have the right to equal treatment.

Yep, it will be fuel on the fire.  Big time.  It was for me.  The result?  All kinds of accusations that never went anywhere.  Then my ex had a mental health episode and I was given custody of the kids until she got clearance from a T that she's not a threat to them or herself.  She dug herself a big hole, and I could show the courts it was me that stood up and took care of the kids when they needed a stable parent.  From this point forward, her lawyer avoided going to trial like it was the plague.

It doesn't matter if your wife explodes and gets angry, because a lawyer will absorb the blast and protect you from it.  I received a lot of threats and manipulation, all I had to do was make my lawyer aware and it went away.
Logged

Yeah, I'm just gonna keep moving...today, tomorrow, and the next
defogging
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 202



« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2020, 10:48:06 AM »

Does that make any sense to anyone?

The problem I see is that you don't know what you don't know.  Family law is not the real world, and there could very well be things in this agreement that put you at a serious disadvantage.

You're negotiating an agreement that will have a profound effect on your kids' lives moving forward.  Once signed, it will be very difficult to change.  You need professional guidance.
Logged

Yeah, I'm just gonna keep moving...today, tomorrow, and the next
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2020, 10:58:33 AM »


I'm not suggesting you get "overt" Legal help right now.

My impression is you do NOT have a lawyer retained..right?

Yes a year ago there was a lot of advice AND the world was different.

I think you were right to delay then, there was NOTHING ON THE TABLE.

There is a deal on the table now, that if you can lock up, will put you in a sweet position. 

It's hard to imagine that the deal gets better.  Is it possible...yes.

Is it probable.  Again I can't imagine it would.

I'm very concerned at your lack of legal counsel with all this going on.  I'm not advising to hire counsel and take action.  I'm advising to hire counsel and go over what's on the table..in detail..quickly.

Most likely outcome is a recommendation to sign quickly...but...get L review first.

Best,

FF
Logged

formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2020, 11:13:58 AM »

Enabler,

Clarity:  Fair point on if you had taken the overwhelming advice you were getting a year ago.  I applaud you for resisting that advice which I considered unwise at the time based on the facts at hand.

Please hear me:  The facts at hand have changed dramatically as has my advice to you.

Get an L and sigh the deal quickly.  That's my advice.

Questions for you.

1.  What do you expect to gain through further delay?

2.  How do you expect further delay to affect your relationship with your children?

3.  How do you expect further delay to affect your relationship with your pwBPD?

Best,

FF
Logged

defogging
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 202



« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2020, 12:20:58 PM »

I want to clarify that I'm not proposing you do what I did.  My situation necessitated that kind of action, I don't think yours does.  I could not let her know that I was planning a divorce, as the situation had already escalated to physical abuse with threats against my safety.  I couldn't disclose the divorce to her and feel safe sleeping in that house anymore.  So for me, it had to be a surprise and a major blow up at the beginning. 

I am sharing my experience with you because I want you to see that lawyers and courts aren't that frightening.  What I found was the laws in place really make a ton of sense, and are there to protect both parties.  Courts aren't perfect but I learned that they really try to make it right.

My recommendation to you is to have a lawyer review the deal before you sign it.  My lawyer saw so many things in the drafts that I had no clue what they meant.  Also, my ex's lawyer was less competent so the first drafts we received had all kinds of holes in them that could create problems in the future.  My lawyer spotted these right away and knew what to add.  I wouldn't have seen them.  My lawyer and I worked as a team.  I knew my ex, and once I explained her behavior patterns, he knew what language to add to protect the kids and I.  He couldn't have gotten it right without my input, and I couldn't have gotten it right without his knowledge.

Think of it this way:  If you were signing a contract to enter into a life long major business deal, with all your money invested, would you have a lawyer review it?
Logged

Yeah, I'm just gonna keep moving...today, tomorrow, and the next
Cat Familiar
Senior Ambassador
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 7480



« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2020, 01:17:56 PM »

I understand not wanting to spend the money on hiring a solicitor, yet. Do you think you can transact the entire process without one?

If not, what keeps you from beginning the interview process to see if you can find someone with whom you feel comfortable, and also who is knowledgeable about high conflict divorces involving a personality disorder?

As time goes on and your wife spends down her savings, do you think she will continue to be as rational and generous in her offer?

Those of us who've been through this process know how things can go abruptly sideways and we're concerned that you are putting yourself at a disadvantage, needlessly.

On the other hand...I somewhat believe that she will accidentally get a divorce she doesn't actually want.~ Enabler

I'm wondering if there's some magical thinking on your part.

Perhaps you envision letting things progress like this: Your wife has her own place with kids reluctantly living there part time. She is beginning to get stressed about money after a number of months. The love nest she has envisioned isn't working out quite the way she'd hoped. There's less privacy for her relationship with the other man. And things are getting real for him. It's not the sweet honeymoon life that he'd been enjoying up until now. He's dealing with your kids, yet he's not living there on a permanent basis, because they don't want to screw up the financial picture before the divorce is finally done. She's getting more irritable and he's not sure that this is really what he wanted. It was all very nice when it was just the two of them, but now the surly looks from your daughters let him know that they blame him for splitting up the family. And she's starting to wonder how much he can contribute to running the household. Perhaps he still has financial commitments with his wife and he's starting to rethink getting involved in yet another relationship with a difficult woman. Things start getting strained between them. And maybe your wife begins to wonder why she got involved with him at all. And then she thinks there is still an open door with Enabler...and really life was pretty good with him...and he tolerated her outside affairs with other men...and it was financially stable because he kept everything together...so maybe she could go back...and that would eliminate a lot of the pressure she's now feeling...



Logged

“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
Enabler
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Living apart
Posts: 2790



« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2020, 02:22:52 PM »

I hate you a little bit Cat...
... and I think you can all guess why! Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)  Although I have to say a more elaborate fairytale than I had concocted.

That said, in the interim, whilst maybe her and OM are trying to play happy families and she’s looking the other way, I’ll maybe push forward the financial deal since this would mean I wouldn’t need to even consider spousal, and split of capital would be considerably more in my favour..

I’ve taken critical advantage of opportunities I’ve been given this far!
Logged

Cat Familiar
Senior Ambassador
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 7480



« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2020, 03:32:28 PM »

 Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)  Well I had to keep digging. Otherwise why would such an intelligent, rational, logical guy be so resistant?
Logged

“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
Enabler
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Living apart
Posts: 2790



« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2020, 03:38:22 PM »

We can all dream...

I never dreamed of Covid, but I did hope for 50/50 parenting, funny how that one worked out.

A lawyer will likely tell me to give up hope... because hope isn’t rational.
Logged

formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2020, 03:47:06 PM »


Perhaps a lawyer will clarify what's legal or not.

I'm concerned that I haven't heard an explanation for the resistance to get legal advice.

Is it purely about money?

Best,

FF
Logged

empath
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 848


« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2020, 04:39:02 PM »

Enabler, when my h moved out, I was primarily concerned to protect my d13 (at the time) and secondarily my housing. My h had been considering and looking at divorce more actively for about 3 years at that point, and he had a meeting with a L. In my case, h decided that a divorce using a L would be too expensive and didn't pursue it then. He just moved out and was continuing to pay the rent for our house; we didn't have any written agreements regarding either the finances or parenting time. I had 100% custody, and since nothing had changed legally, I could make all decisions regarding my daughter's care. In the years leading up to this point, I had consulted with a L and others who are in the dv field, so I was prepared in the event that h decided to go through with the divorce and I had documents compiled to protect my d and our financial interests. H didn't know about any of my discussions with the L or what I had done to prepare. Currently, I have more documentation and support for what I need. H complains about his financial state, now, and sometimes wants to move back in with me which recently became much less likely because I had to move.

Consulting with a L can take many forms. They can stay completely behind the scenes with advise and recommendations all the way up to more actively filing and pursuing court cases. For me, having the advise and perspective of the L was very valuable; I knew where I stood legally and was able to make decisions based on my own goals in the situation. I was very reluctant to be the one to push the way forward because I knew that it might get contentious if I did.

As most of the wise folks on the board have said, I would also recommend that you consult a L regarding your rights and responsibilities so that you can be adequately prepared. You don't have to let EnablerW know about it. Right now, you need to protect your time with your daughters and to make sure that something is in writing BEFORE EnablerW moves out with them. She is offering you 50% time - the fewer nuances in the agreement, the better.
Logged
defogging
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 202



« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2020, 04:42:08 PM »

I'm starting to sense Enabler is dragging his feet and hoping the divorce magically goes away.  

I also sensing that maybe EnablerW doesn't really want a divorce and this is a form of control.  After all, why would she want to finalize it right now?  She has the best of both worlds.  She gets to maintain the marriage and lifestyle, and also have the OM on the side.
Logged

Yeah, I'm just gonna keep moving...today, tomorrow, and the next
Skip
Site Director
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 8817


« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2020, 06:45:01 PM »

I think people started telling me to finish this a year ago... where would I be if I finished it then?

Disney dad with a tea midweek vs 50/50 parenting
Out of my home and zero chance of retaining it vs in my home and a possibility of retaining it...

Fact check: You were stonewalling back then and hoping to preserve your marriage - you told us that - you preferred to stick it out over alternatives.The narrative was:

       she will accidentally get a divorce she doesn't actually want.~ Enabler

The advice you received was that your relationship was over, the children were victims of a toxic household, and to stop blocking your wife's efforts to move on (with guilt and passive resistance). The message to you was to accept the reality of the situation and to lay the groundwork to get 50% visitation. No one was saying "end it".

You said, because of your work situation and your relationship with your mother, 50%/50% was not possible for you.

It's a different time, the circumstances have changed, and you are still getting the same advice.

You are where you are because your wife is desperate to leave. She is in over her head in this thing... nonetheless she is pushing forward. She wants out.You have done a good job of convincing her that lawyers are unnecessary and she has a great deal of shame and fear about the affair.

The risk that you have today is the same risk as before; that she finally realizes that her affair is not fatal in family court and she can demand and/or manipulate and get a lot more than she demanding right now.

I underlined it because this is the Achilles heel of your life right now. A lawyer could convince her that she should "go for it" and file a motion that un-does whatever tentative "agreement" you have now and flip this thing on its ear. It often happens this way.

She has laid out a pretty good deal. I'd try to close it and get it filed with the court. Yes, she is advocating for bad boundaries and you are advocating for firm boundaries (as you should)... but don't let this end up in a standoff like your previous efforts to make a joint decision.

My suggestion to Enabler and to everyone participating here: Let's be careful not to go down the same path that most of this last years discussions have gone down. Members give advice, Enabler explains why it is not good advice, members restate their position louder. I'm certainly guilty of that.  Being cool (click to insert in post)

Enabler, what help do you need right now?

What are your thoughts? This could help everyone posting to you.

1. Do you hope that if she can't get a custody agreement that she likes or if the kids act up too much, she will call off the move? Reality defeats fantasy as you often say.

2. Is your goal with the divorce to continue to be passively resistant and make the process as discouraging as possible for her? Is this in hopes that she will let it go? Is wearing her out your negotiating tactic?

3. Are you preferring to keep agreements informal rather than executing a formal agreement and filing them the court? What is the advantage you see with this?

4. A few months ago you argued with members that 50%/50% was not something you could do. The fatal flaws were your work schedule and the lack of anyone to help you. You said you couldn't work it out for your mom to help. Do you now believe you can handle a strict 50% schedule? By strict I mean without help from your wife.

5. A few months ago you argued with members that keeping the house was not financially viable option for you. Do you think you could keep it now? That would be great for the kids. What changed?

6. You have a divorce action filed and pending. At what point do you think having an attorney actively involved makes sense for you? What is the trigger point? Will you try to take this all the way without an attorney if you can?

7. If this custody agreement can't be made - are you fine to just see how it goes for a while?

8.  If you are called to stand before the court, will you go it on your own? Is it situation dependent?  For example, if your wife wants to file the custody agreement, will you be OK to let her attorney do it for the two of you?

9. If the courts end up making the custody agreement, what do you think your chances of getting 50%/50% is a contested situation?

10. You have an extremely strained relationship with your wife's partner. He has made overtures to heal the divide which you strongly objected too. Understandable given the affair. He will obviously be in your children's life. How do you envision your future relationship with him? What do you want your children to see?

I think knowing where you are coming from will help everyone contribute.
Logged

 
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2020, 03:15:12 PM »


A good list of questions, answers that will certainly help me understand.


I've asked some questions which I don't believe have been answered, they are similar to Skip's.  The nuance may or may not be significant...so I'll restate (re-ask).

I don't understand the apparent resistance to have a lawyer retained and ready "at a moments notice" to give Enabler advice, review agreements or even move forward with filing things in the courts.

Broadly speaking Enabler and I are "thinkers" and I believe we often track together in our thinking/analysis.  (completely separate matter if that thinking is helpful/accurate/right..whatever... Being cool (click to insert in post)

I say that to hopefully get Enabler's attention when I say that I can't for the life of me figure out the resistance to doing this.
 
Enabler..have you ever retained a lawyer?   (that may be it, sadly I've had to do it quit often..so it's just a thing I do now without much analysis.  I'm convinced they've helped more than they've hurt.)


2nd question/issue:  Yes it is relevant when evaluating the advice from others to ask "If I had taken your advice in the past, where would I be now?"

Please hear that my advice has changed because the facts on the ground have changed DRAMATICALLY (IMO). 

That being said, in the past (as Skip pointed out) there was usually a thoughtful narrative of why you were not going to go down the advised path and you stuck with that narrative (which I commend) against overwhelming advice to do something else.

Now...I'm seeing/hearing that you don't want to "close the deal" (sign it...finish it...hurry to the finish line) whatever you want to call it, and I can't figure out what your thoughtful narrative is.

I don't want to finish the 50/50 deal on the table because...  (I couldn't fill in your reasoning, let alone express if I agreed or disagreed).

A long winded way of saying that I don't understand and if it was me, most likely I would be acting this way because it sucked/hurt/shouldn't be/I thought it was wrong.   

Pain has a way of clouding decision making (at least for me), especially when there is not an obvious deadline.

We simply don't know when she will "flip" and remove the deal.  Once we know the answer, it will be too late.

Enabler...I'm so sorry this is happening to your family.  It's a great injustice.

My appeal to you is that your children will be VASTLY better off with you in a 50 percent parenting position.  VASTLY...

Isn't that enough of a reason for you to move forward?

Best,

FF
Logged

Enabler
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Living apart
Posts: 2790



« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2020, 08:53:13 AM »

Skip

Excerpt
1. Do you hope that if she can't get a custody agreement that she likes or if the kids act up too much, she will call off the move? Reality defeats fantasy as you often say.

I don't believe a custody agreement has any bearing on the move other than a robust custody agreement gives her more confidence to step to the next lillypad knowing that certain things (access) are secured. I do not want to prevent her from jumping to the next lillypad but I am indifferent as to whether or not I provide her security for that jump.


Excerpt
2. Is your goal with the divorce to continue to be passively resistant and make the process as discouraging as possible for her? Is this in hopes that she will let it go? Is wearing her out your negotiating tactic?

I am passive (except for acting when "the legal process" requires me to act), I am not resistant. No further comment


Excerpt
3. Are you preferring to keep agreements informal rather than executing a formal agreement and filing them the court? What is the advantage you see with this?

I believe that there is some formality in recording lines of agreement via email. I understand that it is not legally binding however a certain level of justification will be required to "undo" these written agreements should they be tested in court. My W would be the only person who would be looking to un-agree what has been agreed and she has initiated the documentation of such agreement, so that to me would seem like an even harder hill to climb. I have looked at some of the online parenting plans suggested by Kells (Thanks Kells) and will be looking to fill one in this week. This can be submitted to the courts.

Knowing my W, I know that there is minimal advantage in pushing her into anything. Think Jujitsu (as discussed in this thread). Me actively pushing to formalise = pushing. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it has to be done in the right way.


Excerpt
4. A few months ago you argued with members that 50%/50% was not something you could do. The fatal flaws were your work schedule and the lack of anyone to help you. You said you couldn't work it out for your mom to help. Do you now believe you can handle a strict 50% schedule? By strict I mean without help from your wife.
100% yes... I have work commitment to facilitate 50/50 and have demonstrated for the last 3m that WFH is not only effective but more productive.


Excerpt
5. A few months ago you argued with members that keeping the house was not financially viable option for you. Do you think you could keep it now? That would be great for the kids. What changed?

A few months ago there were 2 things that acted against keeping the house 1) My W's likely claim on capital would be higher if I was disney dad, there would be less justification for me to have more capital as I would only be providing for the kids for a weekend period. 2) I could have made it work with lodgers and other work-arounds but my justification for keeping the house I concluded would be that I was trying to keep the dream (our marriage) alive rather than having any sound rational justification. I didn't want that (holding onto the banana).

Now there are several things that change that position 1) Potential change in capital split with 50/50 2) Change in Child Support which reduces direct outgoings 3) Openness from W re OM and confession of "Loving him and wanting to see him", that could change to "live with him" in the short/med term and then he would be taken into consideration when "needs" and "provision" were considered in financials e.g. no spousal, different capital split. 4) Zero interest rates forever so way way way easier to sweat an asset as carry costs are lower. 5) BIGGEST FACTOR The kids will be here 50% of the time vs 14% of the time, the house is a HUGE source of consistency and security for the kids and would be worth sustaining that for them for ~10yrs.

There's a lot of ifs and buts in that and in many respects it relies on the financial deal I can negotiate, and what happens with house prices. There are a lot of moving parts and it's far from black and white... it's an outcome and I'm exploring all outcomes. It would certainly be my preference though.


Excerpt
6. You have a divorce action filed and pending. At what point do you think having an attorney actively involved makes sense for you? What is the trigger point? Will you try to take this all the way without an attorney if you can?

Financial agreements have to be checked at some point by independent lawyers, so no I can't make it all the way to the end without my own lawyer. I think the trigger would be her attempting to force me (with her own lawyers) to do something that was either unreasonable or costly in the realms of kids or financials. As of now her attempts to do these things have been manageable with a firm (but not attacking ) stance.


Excerpt
7. If this custody agreement can't be made - are you fine to just see how it goes for a while?

A custody agreement would be best for all, I am not disagreeing with that. There are already glimpses of what is to come with a conversation on the weekend where she wished to change the changeover from Sunday to Friday... the reason being that at the end of her first week with the kids she has someones Birthday party on the Saturday evening... In the long term this variability will be an irritation for me and unsettling for the children, however, in the short term I can use this variability to increase parenting time and increase the evidence (should I need it) that I am not the chaotic parent who places a Birthday Party over their parental responsibility. She's particularly adept at shooting herself in the foot by her own choices.


Excerpt
8.  If you are called to stand before the court, will you go it on your own? Is it situation dependent?  For example, if your wife wants to file the custody agreement, will you be OK to let her attorney do it for the two of you?

Absolutely not


Excerpt
9. If the courts end up making the custody agreement, what do you think your chances of getting 50%/50% is a contested situation?

It's not so much a case of me thinking I have a high chance, it's more a case of I can't see a good reason why I would not. I also know that she now see's 50/50 parenting as an answer to prayer now.


Excerpt
10. You have an extremely strained relationship with your wife's partner. He has made overtures to heal the divide which you strongly objected too. Understandable given the affair. He will obviously be in your children's life. How do you envision your future relationship with him? What do you want your children to see?

He is a manipulative man who has little or no intention to be truthful or honest with me. After said "overtures to heal the divide" and my requests for clarity about his message and his intentions he spoke to me at our youngest D's Winter fair (late Nov19) at school. He made great claims that there was nothing going on between him and my W and then proceeded to tell me (I allowed him to dig his own moral grave) a very long string of lies about what had gone on and alternative meanings to his email. By Jan20 my W is claiming there is something going on and she is in a relationship, by Mar20 my W is claiming she is sorry for diverting her affections to another man in 2015/16 but "loves him and wants to continue to see him".

I can see from your previous messages about OM that you feel that he might be attempting to build bridges in preparation for the future, maybe even have "good intention"... yet even the bridges her attempts to build are full of lies and manipulation. What kind of message do you think I should give to my children about such a person? If your children were to live with a convicted paedophile would you teach them about what is and isn't appropriate sexual behaviour? If your children were to live with a convicted thug, would you teach them how to be safe and defend themselves? OM would very much like for his historic AND CURRENT behaviour to be erased from the moral record with which people should use to gauge how they interact with him... I do not. I do not think it is unreasonable to expect OM to make changes to his behaviour before I change the way I deal with him. I have given him sufficient chances over the past 4 years and he has failed to change.

Hope that answers your questions sufficiently

Enabler
Logged

Enabler
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Living apart
Posts: 2790



« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2020, 08:54:07 AM »

Excerpt
I don't understand the apparent resistance to have a lawyer retained and ready "at a moments notice" to give Enabler advice, review agreements or even move forward with filing things in the courts.

Broadly speaking Enabler and I are "thinkers" and I believe we often track together in our thinking/analysis.  (completely separate matter if that thinking is helpful/accurate/right..whatever... Being cool (click to insert in post)

I say that to hopefully get Enabler's attention when I say that I can't for the life of me figure out the resistance to doing this.
 
Enabler..have you ever retained a lawyer?   (that may be it, sadly I've had to do it quit often..so it's just a thing I do now without much analysis.  I'm convinced they've helped more than they've hurt.)


2nd question/issue:  Yes it is relevant when evaluating the advice from others to ask "If I had taken your advice in the past, where would I be now?"

Please hear that my advice has changed because the facts on the ground have changed DRAMATICALLY (IMO).

That being said, in the past (as Skip pointed out) there was usually a thoughtful narrative of why you were not going to go down the advised path and you stuck with that narrative (which I commend) against overwhelming advice to do something else.

Now...I'm seeing/hearing that you don't want to "close the deal" (sign it...finish it...hurry to the finish line) whatever you want to call it, and I can't figure out what your thoughtful narrative is.

I don't want to finish the 50/50 deal on the table because...  (I couldn't fill in your reasoning, let alone express if I agreed or disagreed).

A long winded way of saying that I don't understand and if it was me, most likely I would be acting this way because it sucked/hurt/shouldn't be/I thought it was wrong.   

Pain has a way of clouding decision making (at least for me), especially when there is not an obvious deadline.

We simply don't know when she will "flip" and remove the deal.  Once we know the answer, it will be too late.

Enabler...I'm so sorry this is happening to your family.  It's a great injustice.

My appeal to you is that your children will be VASTLY better off with you in a 50 percent parenting position.  VASTLY...

Hey FF, I have always respected your views and always seen your advice as valuable. Like you say you appear most aligned to my way of thinking and as such I find your questions thought provoking.

1) Why I don't have a lawyer - I think I touched on this a few posts ago, but in essence it comes down to fear. The chances I am giving my W to move around and act with somewhat impunity are seemingly irrational, and it's tough (because of it's irrational nature) to explain why I am allowing her to do so. I fear that if I were to work with a lawyer, they would encourage me to act rationally (as have many friends and family) to prevent this acting with impunity, to act to control her. I still see opportunity in not controlling her, as much as her chaos could work against me (which standing strong and having sturdy boundaries has prevented her from causing damage), her chaos can certainly work for me. I know that a lawyer doesn't inhibit me from taking advantage of those vacuums, but they may well encourage me to start pushing for them. My T has been helpful in instructing me how and when to take steps forwards and when to shield. I have a distrust of lawyers and see them as wishing to be combative rather than pick-n-drive.

There is no good reasons for me not having a lawyer on retainer.

2) As mentioned in the previous post, I am certainly not averse to locking in the 50/50 deal, and see that this is pretty formal now with a good amount of correspondence originating from her to that effect. I would agree that this needs to be formalised FURTHER by means of a formal parenting plan, which I am looking to draw up using online templates. I had a good chat with my sister who has experience in Parenting plans through her job as a Head Teacher at a primary school.

Enabler
Logged

kells76
BOARD ADMINISTRATOR
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Posts: 3246



« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2020, 10:38:32 AM »

Good to hear from you again. Thanks for the insights and answers -- really helpful for understanding how you're thinking about your situation.

Excerpt
I believe that there is some formality in recording lines of agreement via email... a certain level of justification will be required to "undo" these written agreements should they be tested in court.

This would be good to get airtight confirmation one way or the other. In the US this sort of thing can vary state by state. I would recommend finding the specific law for your area and being 110% certain of how this works. There is no room for preventable bad surprises... I bet we are on the same page there. Reach out for support from the group if we can research this for you. I'm not UK but I know other members are and would be happy to chime in. I'm saying all this as a working scientist.

Excerpt
have demonstrated for the last 3m that WFH is not only effective but more productive.

Sounds like your employer would support your WFH as your "new normal"? True?

Excerpt
no I can't make it all the way to the end without my own lawyer.

OK, good to get clarified.

Excerpt
There are already glimpses of what is to come with a conversation on the weekend where she wished to change the changeover from Sunday to Friday

Am I understanding correctly that she is wanting to shorten her PT? Is this documented in an email?

...

Excerpt
I fear that if I were to work with a lawyer, they would encourage me to act rationally (as have many friends and family) to prevent this acting with impunity, to act to control her.

Thanks for the clarification and sharing where you're coming from. I can relate in that sometimes I also fear pushing to get professionals involved with DH's kids, though for me it's because I'm afraid that their mom will react by attempting to alienate them and manipulate their desires to resisting the parenting plan and resisting professional involvement.

Excerpt
I know that a lawyer doesn't inhibit me from taking advantage of those vacuums, but they may well encourage me to start pushing for them.

Maybe, maybe not. There is no concrete data at this point indicating either way. This is dependent on the specific L and on how you present your needs and requirements.

A lawyer works FOR you. Let's say you interview 3 and none are a good fit. Done, none hired. Let's say one might be a good fit, because you're explicit in the preliminary meeting: "This is what I need -- I need no pressure and no pushing. I need someone for legal technical details only." OK, you pay for the 45 minute meeting and that's it for... let's say... 8 months. You don't get charged anything because you aren't contacting the L. The L, who works for you, knows that your terms are "I'll contact you if or when I need you. I don't need you reaching out to me". In 8 months, you email L "Please review this doc for loopholes". You pay for that email and are done.

You don't pay to "keep that L on retainer" the whole 8 months. Typically you pay when they are actually doing something for you. We had a 4 year break in contact with our L. It's not like you have to pay a monthly fee.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are quite a few L's out there who "get" your mindset and would be fine with your terms of "No pressure and no pushing. We do it the client's way and only communicate if and when the client desires." Of course, it takes meeting with a few to find them.

Food for thought.

Excerpt
I would agree that this needs to be formalised FURTHER by means of a formal parenting plan, which I am looking to draw up using online templates. I had a good chat with my sister who has experience in Parenting plans through her job as a Head Teacher at a primary school.

Kudos for these concrete moves. Your kids will benefit. Good to have experienced support to lean on as you work on PPs.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
Logged
Notwendy
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Posts: 10440



« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2020, 10:52:02 AM »

If your children were to live with a convicted paedophile would you teach them about what is and isn't appropriate sexual behaviour? If your children were to live with a convicted thug, would you teach them how to be safe and defend themselves? OM would very much like for his historic AND CURRENT behaviour to be erased from the moral record with which people should use to gauge how they interact with him...

This is kind of a moot point argument, because, if OM was a convicted criminal, then there would likely be some kind of legal arrangement where he could not be near your kids at all.


"Amoral" is broad. It seems more likely that he's a slimy person rather than criminal. It sounds like you are chosing to withold what he wants until he changes his amoral behavior. That's fine, but if he's going to be around your kids, it's more about them than him or you.

Imagine 15-20 years later your child is getting married and is stressed out because she wants you to walk her down the aisle and mom insists on bringing OM, or whatever OM she has at the time.

Our kids learn more from our actions, what they see, than what we say. IMHO, your best way of demonstrating morality is to model it for your kids- and at your place it's your environment to control. I think kids can see the difference. If you can be cordial,  it will make things easier all around. Imagine all the times you all might be in the same place- kids' plays at school, sports events, graduations.
Logged
Enabler
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Living apart
Posts: 2790



« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2020, 10:54:02 AM »

Excerpt
Sounds like your employer would support your WFH as your "new normal"? True?

This is correct. WFH has opened up the whole business to working practices which were otherwise barred in my industry. The genie is out of the box now. We've proven it can be BAU from home. It will be AT LEAST Sept till any return to the office is viable and more than likely NY.

Excerpt
Am I understanding correctly that she is wanting to shorten her PT? Is this documented in an email?

She would like to switch changeover day from Sunday to Friday, a day that she previously preferred, however her reasoning for the change over summer was that there was a friends birthday party she would like to attend on the first weekend of the post her moving out plan... she is moving out Friday 26th June, party is on 4th July. In theory it would change her parenting time by 2 days as a once off. I made it clear that this arrangement did not work when I was back in the office but didn't see the point in fighting this nuance now as long as it was noted that this was a summer arrangement and did not work when back in the office was going to happen. I did say that this type of behaviour was the reason why I would like a specific parenting plan and pointed out (diplomatically) that I no longer wanted to have these types of discussions which she considered reasonable as it was unhelpful for me and the kids to maintain certainty with our lives.

Thanks for your words of support Kells.

Logged

Enabler
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Living apart
Posts: 2790



« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2020, 11:00:31 AM »

Notwendy,

I hear you on the moot point and I was being a bit facetious. However, how would you (anyone) suggest I interact with a man who despite asking for the truth and honesty, he has failed at every single possible hurdle to do so, he is actually proactive in attempting to pervert other peoples reality. I didn't go up to him at the Winter fair, he actually came up to me. He initiated chats with me. He sent me 8 page emails telling me "his truth"... a truth I might add bares absolutely NO comparison to evidence I have seen. So how do I actually go about creating some kind of truce with a man like that?

The guy lies with no apparent reason and lies even when confronted with evidence proving the contrary! 

I'm just lost how to create a truce other than to live in parallel with him.

Enabler
Logged

Notwendy
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Posts: 10440



« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2020, 11:41:36 AM »

My BPD mother is manipulative and has lied so much to me, I don't know if she's telling the truth or not. One of her motivations for lying is to maintain control- to keep me in the dark, because if I don't know what is going on or if I believe her, she stays in control.

It's not quite the same relationship as OM, but the similarity is this: I could decide to cut contact with this person, but she's a significant part of the lives of people I care about. And I still feel some value based obligation to treat her with as much respect as I can, without letting her walk all over me. You might be thinking "but she didn't have an affair with your spouse and break up your marriage" but- she did things that were also hurtful to my original family. Yet, learning to let go and forgive, ( not forget) and dimish the drama in this relationship has been worth working for, and if OM is in your children's lives it is worth it for you too, I think. It takes time- I know you don't feel that way now.

Morally- I think it's similar. She's not an honest or athentic person, she tells lies- but she has a sense of morality. She doesn't do the really bad things- and I don't think OM does too. Her friends think she is wonderful.

How to maintain a chill relationship is called "medium chill" on the family board and it's what I do. I maintain a cordial, non dramatic relationship with her. I don't share personal or sensitive information. We might discuss a movie or book. I don't get emotional or reactive to her.

So with OM- the goal is less drama, less emotion. Nobody expects you to be BFF's, but the energy that it takes to avoid him is drama too. Don't invest your emotions with him. If you are in his presence, be polite, talk about the weather, or the news, or just exchange something " hello how are you". It's not about you giving in, it's maintaining your cool.
Logged
kells76
BOARD ADMINISTRATOR
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Posts: 3246



« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2020, 11:44:49 AM »

Excerpt
I'm just lost how to create a truce other than to live in parallel with him.

This might be well-served as a spinoff on the Family Law board -- this is a great question that folks have been through before, or new members are actively dealing with. You're certainly not alone in wondering this.

Excerpt
It seems more likely that he's a slimy person rather than criminal. It sounds like you are chosing to withold what he wants until he changes his amoral behavior. That's fine, but if he's going to be around your kids, it's more about them than him or you...

Our kids learn more from our actions, what they see, than what we say. IMHO, your best way of demonstrating morality is to model it for your kids- and at your place it's your environment to control. I think kids can see the difference. If you can be cordial,  it will make things easier all around. Imagine all the times you all might be in the same place- kids' plays at school, sports events, graduations.

What Notwendy is describing is true. The way you interact with him, and talk about him, will tell your kids more about YOU than the content of the conversation tells them about him.

It takes a superhuman amount of composure to hear the kids speak positively about their stepdad, who used to be DH's best friend.

Excerpt
how would you (anyone) suggest I interact with a man who despite asking for the truth and honesty, he has failed at every single possible hurdle to do so, he is actually proactive in attempting to pervert other peoples reality.

Yes, it sounds like DH's xW and your xW are into the same person  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)  Stepdad is either ignorant of his manipulation of the kids' reality or... ugh, doing it to "support" the kids' mom's delusions about DH being the "persecutor".

I want the kids to know that he's self-centered, narcissistic, enabling, and vindictive, only playing the part of "hero" to the kids because of how it serves himself... but the kids can't hear it and can't comprehend it. If I tried to teach the kids that being self-centered is immoral by pointing out his behavior to them, it would only entrench them in their defense of him and closed-mindedness to anything I tried to share with them -- no matter how important the content.

When they bring up how great he is, I have to work overtime to validate how they feel. "That sounds really fun to have minecraft weekends with Stepdad". "Your essay about how he's the most important person in your life shows me that he's meant a lot to you over the years" (true, this happened).

I think that the truce is created through neutrality and nonreactivity. Your kids will tell you about nice stuff OM has done for them. Make those conversations about your kids -- not about you, certainly not about OM. That will continue the foundation you've described, about having a really positive relationship with your girls. Continue to be the dad to whom they can say anything, and whom they can rely upon to "not make it all about himself". Validate, coach, address stuff they bring up about OM without you "having to" bring stuff up about him.

The truce is created when you consistently refuse invitations into the drama triangle. This may look like a "flexible parallel" where you don't actively seek out conversations about OM or interactions with him, yet when those things come up, you either "don't take the bait" with him (at school event: "the kids will be glad you're here... have a nice evening, I'm going to get some refreshments") or you step into "validating coach" role with the kids (at school event: "you sound excited that Mommy and OM are here; I'm happy things are going well for you").

The truce is about you being committed to being neutral and nonreactive. Not raising OM as topic of conversation, yet validating the kids if/when they bring him up. Not "fighting or fleeing" him at events, yet not "sticking around" to "reward" his monologues. The truce is about BIFF. He wants to rope you into his managed reality. BIFF is the slippery coating on your life and actions and words that lets you decline his invitations into his drama.

The truce is about exiting the drama triangle, validating your kids, and BIFF.
Logged
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2020, 02:51:15 PM »

Enabler,
 
Perhaps a separate discussion about "fear of Ls" or what they may say is appropriate.

I would encourage you to interview several and try to find a good fit.

I've hired several over the years and also realized several were not a good fit.  (in fact, I need to send an email today asking for status update on a matter, also ask for more regular updates...otherwise..not a good fit and I may move on)

Ls may or may not advise you to act rationally, what you can be sure of is they will explain to you how your actions and decisions are "most likely" going to be interpreted by the courts.  There is so much "it depends" that goes on in the legal realm that you need to have someone you are completely comfortable about being open with.

This is what I want...

This is what I fear will happen

Etc etc.  

They can describe how hard it will be for you to accomplish what you want outside of the courts.

As others have said, they work for you.  

I've had many lawyers ask me to respond to their email advice with my direction, so they have "cover" if things go south...because I picked my own path.  

Anyway...I'd feel a lot better about this situation if you had a L on retainer.  It's one of those "you don't know what you don't know things."

Not sure if you are a fan of Don Rumsfeld (former naval aviator, secretary of defense ..etc etc).  I've actually met him.  Really neat guy.  Very thoughtful.  He is a big proponent of reducing your "known unknowns" and acknowledging that life is full of "unknown unknowns".  

Getting and L reduces the "known unknowns" (those look pretty big to me right now)

Read that a couple of times.  Given that you are "a thinker", perhaps you will find that interesting.

https://youtu.be/GiPe1OiKQuk

There are many longer form interviews out there where he goes into much greater depth.  He's also a guy that seems (to me anyway) the same in person as they appear on TV.  That's a rare thing.

Best,

FF

Logged

empath
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 848


« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2020, 06:34:33 PM »

I agree with FF that it might be worthwhile to explore the fear and distrust of L's in a separate thread.

In my world, both L's and T's are sometimes viewed with suspicion and fear because the thought is that they will push their agenda upon their clients.

I'm also concerned that you are currently describing your interactions with OM as manipulative and deceitful and that your children will shortly be in a "less protected" situation with only an unofficial agreement between their parents regarding PT.

Logged
defogging
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 202



« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2020, 09:01:30 PM »

I agree with empath and formflier regarding the fear of Ls discussion.

Your L would be working for you, and should be acting to advise you.  A good L won't force you down any path of action.  Keep in mind that if you feel your lawyer isn't working in your best interest you can always fire them and find another.  You are the client, they are serving you.

Someone mentioned above that they will advise you on how certain things would look in the eyes of the court, I found that to be very true.  My L consistently asked me what outcome I wanted, and then he would advise me whether or not that was likely to happen.  I heard a lot of "you want X to happen, but if a judge ruled they probably would rule Y or Z" or "if you want X to happen, we need to take this to a higher level and get psychologists involved".  His knowledge of likely outcomes helped me weigh decisions and decide how far to fight things, and think about whether or not it's worth paying him to fight that battle.  Another thing I heard a lot was "I can certainly fight for this, but it's going to cost another $5-$10k.  Is it worth it to you?"  And then he would leave the choice to me.

My biggest concern for you right now is that you don't have someone to run questions by.  We all know the unpredictable nature of PDs, things can change and get out of control quickly.  My lawyer still works for me but I don't pay anything unless he's actively doing something for me.  It's great peace of mind that I can call him up for an opinion.  It may cost me $75 per phone call every time my ex has an outburst, but he's there when I need him and I can better decide how to handle things.
Logged

Yeah, I'm just gonna keep moving...today, tomorrow, and the next
Can You Help Us Stay on the Air in 2024?

Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Our 2023 Financial Sponsors
We are all appreciative of the members who provide the funding to keep BPDFamily on the air.
12years
alterK
AskingWhy
At Bay
Cat Familiar
CoherentMoose
drained1996
EZEarache
Flora and Fauna
ForeverDad
Gemsforeyes
Goldcrest
Harri
healthfreedom4s
hope2727
khibomsis
Lemon Squeezy
Memorial Donation (4)
Methos
Methuen
Mommydoc
Mutt
P.F.Change
Penumbra66
Red22
Rev
SamwizeGamgee
Skip
Swimmy55
Tartan Pants
Turkish
whirlpoollife



Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2020, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!