Haven’t seen or spoken with S5 in nearly a month

[JNChell]

I don’t quite know where to begin. I guess that a good place would be to identify the mistakes that I’ve made along the way and go from there. I’m the poster child for “what not to do” when it comes to parenting with someone with personality issues. Lurkers, don’t do what I do. I’m beginning to see and accept that I’ve been an HCP (high conflict person) when it comes to S5’s mom. This hasn’t been good. Up until now I have justified the approach that I’ve taken as logical and factual. That’s my perception. I failed at empathy here. I was being one sided. Whether or not my thoughts are correct when it comes to the well-being of S5, I failed to go deeper and examine how his mom might perceive things. I feel foolish because I’ve known for a long time that her logic and my own are polar opposites. She thinks about herself and I think about our Son, situationally.
I have called her out on how her behavior is currently affecting our Son, and the potential long term damage that it can cause. A big no-no on my part. Obviously, she perceived that as an attack and not a discussion starter about the welfare of our Son. See, I’ve been very one sided and firm in my stance when it comes to him. I haven’t empathized with his mom because I dislike her so much. That’s me not being able to put my feelings aside. That’s me being one sided and failing our boy. This came to me while listening to Bill Eddy while laying in bed the other night. He’s really in tune and intelligent with this stuff.

Last week I had a welfare check done on S5. I haven’t seen him. I have no idea how he’s doing. It was nice to hear the officer say that he checked in on S5 and that he tried to talk to his mom privately about stopping the withholding. He told me that he went through similar things with his daughter. I miss my boy.

I have been adamant about pointing out what she is doing wrong by her actions. Her responses don’t acknowledge our Son one bit. Her responses are about her and how bad I am. Par for the course, but I’m realizing that I’ve set a lot of this in motion. I thought that true and heart felt logic would be realized. No. Not when dealing with a narcissist. Perhaps my own narcissism has blown up in my face. I’m stern in my beliefs, values and virtues. I think that I’ve just been chopped down a bit. My Son is the most important person in my life and I’m starting to feel like I’ve failed him in a really big way. I’m calm and level for once when it comes to his mom withholding him. It’s a pattern with her. The thing is, it’s also a pattern with me. I contribute to this toxicity and I need to stop.

It is so hard to not say what I feel to her when it comes to our Son. I don’t know how not to. It’s like this. I’m on a mission to make sure what happened to me and his mom doesn’t happen to him. I suppose that this is causing some hyper vigilance which can lead to reactions.

Court is inevitable. Mediation at the very least. This will never stop. I’m feeling a lot of shame while reflecting. Seeing times when I should’ve ended it, gone to court and shored things up. But, I didn’t. I stayed and constantly tried to fix.

I have told his mom that she is a narcissist. You don’t call a narcissist a narcissist. You only do that if you enjoy punishment.

So, I’m here asking for guidance. I’ve done what I have done and it was wrong. The outcome makes that very evident. Moving forward beyond my mistakes, how do I get S5 back in my life? Research has proven that children do better with both parents in their lives. S5’s mom can’t see that, but I do. How do I make this better? Should I try to fix the damage that I’ve done, or should I start out on square one and start doing what the experts say to do, take the advice and go from there?

[I Am Redeemed]

I'm so sorry you're going through this. I know the pain of not being in contact with your kids. I haven't seen or spoken to my youngest five kids (the one my narcissistic older sister has custody of) since March, except for a few minutes when I dropped off presents on the front porch for D13's birthday in June. My sister is terrified of Covid and the kids are still in quarantine with no outside contact.

What do you mean by "fixing the damage" you have caused? What would that look like for you, and how is it different from following the advice of the experts?

[zachira]

I am sorry you are not able to see your son. I know you love him and really care about his welfare. I agree with you that going to Court is inevitable, and I hope it just does not take too long to get a custody hearing. I am glad you are reading Bill Eddy, as he really knows what he is talking about when dealing with legal matters with high conflict personalities. Do not be too hard on yourself about how you are dealing with the mother of your son. My sister has NPD, and sometimes I just have to set boundaries. You can't always keep your mouth shut with a narcissist especially when it involves your son's wellbeing. I also recommend reading "Divorce Poison" which talks about how to prevent  parent alienation. A child can feel forced to choose one parent over the other, take the side of the disordered parent, and be completely brain washed into hating a parent the child once loved. Your son is young and at an age that he could be completely brainwashed by his mother. I understand how exhausting it is to have to deal with a narcissist on a regular basis, and how sometimes you have just needed a break, and stepped back from dealing directly with getting the kind of custody agreement you need to effectively coparent with your ex.

[JNChell]

IAR. Fixing the damage means somehow back stepping and trying to repair the things that I’ve said. Calling her out and basically labeling her. Experts say to not call these people out and try to show them what they’re doing. I’ve done this with S5’s mom. I have called her out. I get so infuriated by her not being able to see. At the same time, now, I’m realizing that we don’t see things in the same way. Situationally, she sees herself and I see our boy. This is where I’ve been blind. I’ve failed to see her POV, which is all about her, but it’s her POV. No logic will ever change that. She is doing what she thinks is right. That is hard to accept. I suppose that I’ve been in the anger stage for quite a while. Anger can blind.

I’m beginning to see this for what it is. Just like the members here, I have to try my best to meet her where she is. Let me tell you, that’s going to be very hard. I really don’t like her as a person. Honestly, she scares me. It comes down to empathy. I never realized how powerful empathy is.

I remember your situation. I’m sorry that you haven’t seen your children aside from what you’ve stated. That’s not ok. Children need their parents, and parents need their children. Synergy. Rest assured that your kiddos are thinking about you. The State and it’s power to do things like that is frightening. They want to put “mental health professionals “ into the field now. What about when it comes to parental conflict? Narcissism is a real time thing.

Your children should be with you. The courts are basically stupid to this stuff. The courts are black and white. Also political. Not equipped for what they preside on.

[JNChell]

z, thank you for the advice. It’s really hard to decide to set a boundary when his mom is blatantly in control. By blatantly, she tells me that I have no rights. Every time that I’ve tried, she keeps our Son. I have no idea about his doctor, dentist, any of that. His education. He’s in preschool now. His mom is good at that stuff, but I never know anything about it.  I’ve asked, but she won’t let me in. She doesn’t let me know about anything. I ask constantly. She withholds him. I just never saw this happening. My parents were bad people, but I never saw the pain of my own child being kept from me.

[zachira]

You must document everything. What will count in a custody hearing is legal evidence of how she is behaving. Date and describe in full detail every contact you have with her. If possible correspond by email so that you have full documentation of your trying to see your son and her response. Court will want proof of how her behavior affects her ability to be a safe parent for your son. Try to get an emergency custody hearing, as the more time she has your son alone, the more permanent damage she can do to your relationship with your son.

[ForeverDad]

I Am Redeemed and zachira both shared excellent points, others will chime in too.  I will of course wander off on a tangent, so bear with me.

We all have said/shared too much with our ex-spouses.  (TMI)  Most of us do want to share the logic but our ex-spouses are driven by their perception-driven emotions.  It take a few such bloopers/realizations to drill down deep and make us accept/remember that logic doesn't work.  Remind me to expound instead on the benefits of Boundaries.

Okay, so you triggered her.  Predictable.  We all did that too.   You probably feel like you need to apologize.  Beware.  You might say something that could make you appear you did something substantially wrong. You didn't, at least not majorly or legally wrong.  Someone here shared an excellent perspective on how to do damage control with an 'apology'...
Don't... apologize for doing something wrong.
Do    ... apologize for her feeling something was wrong.

Do you see the difference?  Apologizing for her feelings will not expose you to legal self-sabotage or consequences.

Mediation... many courts require mediation, especially if there is no parenting order in place.  (If you haven't been to court yet then you generally first get a temporary custody/parenting order then you are sent to mediation next.)  If this is your first time in mediation then be aware you don't have to cave in on your principles to get a settlement.  Usually the ex is still so entitled that a middle ground cannot be achieved.  That's okay, that's typical, then it just moves to court.  (Surprisingly many of us have reached settlements but usually much later in a divorce case.)  The wonder about mediation is that you have a chance to say No; a court still wants you to agree but has the authority to order anything it wants.

I think that denied visitation would require you to file something and send you straight to court for an order or enforcement of the order or review of the order.  This is a time to use an experienced family law attorney, not just a typical lawyer who fills in the forms and holds your hand.

Remember, be careful how you word yourself, don't expose yourself to legal actions.  Then later, once the worst of your worries are past, you can view this as a lesson learned.

Please state whether you have a custody and parenting schedule order.  That will help us focus our responses.  If you already have an order then you are on much stronger ground, though it can still take time to resolve.  (If it is a temporary order then she may not face many consequences.  Courts get sterner if it is not temporary.)

Oh, I reminded myself to express my view of Boundaries.  I may word it differently than others but here's my perspective.

Appeasing and dancing on tiptoe around the disorder has limited success, with less and less success as time passes.  It enables a "lose-lose" perception.  What works is to be informed, proactive, and set meaningful boundaries.

Follow this link to our tools and skills workshop topics.  You find many topics discussed there including boundaries.  My description of practical boundaries is that they're not meant for the ex, people with acting-out PDs don't respect boundaries, they treat them like waving red flags in a bull ring.  Think of it another way, boundaries are for you.  How so?  You set the terms how you will respond to whichever misbehaviors.  For example, "If you do or don't do ___ then I will or will not do ___."  You can't force your ex to do anything but you can state what you will do.  Does that make sense?

[I Am Redeemed]

z, thank you for the advice. It’s really hard to decide to set a boundary when his mom is blatantly in control. By blatantly, she tells me that I have no rights. Every time that I’ve tried, she keeps our Son.

Yes, this is hard. This is exactly why you need an order that defines your rights.

If memory serves me, you two were not ever married and there has not been any formal visitation ever set by the courts, correct? Up to this point, you have tried to work out exchanging S5 by an informal agreement.

If this is the case, then you need legal protection of your rights. Don't count on your ex to have a change of heart and recognize your relationship with your son as being anything other than a dysfunctional tool to use. You will have to have a legal court order that asserts your right to parent.

[ForeverDad]

And the longer you have no order (or no contact) the harder it will be to present your own claim to be an involved dad but your ex is resisting that.  Courts and lawyers will often relegate dads into the minimal sometime-dad category but it is your responsibility to stand up for yourself and seek as much additional time they will allow.

[JNChell]

FD, thanks. It’s funny how a simple play on words can make a difference. I understand, but I’m still in awe of how a person can use a child. I get it. I’m going through it. I’m really angry about it though. It’s really weird to understand someone, but have difficulty in dealing with them. I can only point to my ego.

She doesn’t want court. If she did her threats would’ve already taken us there. I don’t want court because it destroys men and fathers. Many times by the hands of disordered mothers.

My communication needs to improve. I’ve already started. I’ve had my epiphany. She wants to keep our Son from me! I don’t understand that. How does a person go about their day while doing that? I don’t understand why she is keeping S5 from me. There is no sense in it.

[JNChell]

It’s going to mediation and possibly court. When I started this thread, I talked about what I’ve done wrong. I did everything that wasn’t supposed to be done. I understand that I need to take active measures. If any of you are willing, I’d like to hear stories.

[ForeverDad]

She doesn’t want court. If she did her threats would’ve already taken us there. I don’t want court because it destroys men and fathers. Many times by the hands of disordered mothers.

Of course, she knows court will reduce her control.  Frankly, having a court order will probably make things better for you.  How much, hard to say in advance.  Think...  Do you get at least half the holidays each year?  Do you get 2 or 3 weeks vacation with your child to go anywhere you wish?  Are you involved in child's school, appointments, etc?  Do you always get generous alternate weekends?  (In my orders I got 72 hour weekends from Fri pm to Mon pm, longer than most.)

My communication needs to improve. I’ve already started. I’ve had my epiphany. She wants to keep our Son from me! I don’t understand that. How does a person go about their day while doing that? I don’t understand why she is keeping S5 from me. There is no sense in it.

You've just described mental illness... it doesn't make sense.  Duh!

[JNChell]

Haha. ForeverDad. Can’t stop laughing. What the sguigly word?

[I Am Redeemed]

JNChell, I understand why you would have a less-than-stellar opinion of courts and the way they seem to be biased towards mothers, even disordered ones.

I encourage you to look through the stories on this board. Some fathers here (FD, for instance) started out with generic weekend "dad" visitation, and over the years that time increased and in some cases the father ended up with majority time. FD is one I can think of immediately, and I believe Panda 39's H is another.

Don't let your distaste for court keep you from taking every action possible to protect your right to a relationship with your son- and his right to a relationship with you. You are projecting that court will have an undesirable outcome for you- you may be surprised that the results are better than expected. A legal court order that clearly states when you can see your child will give you something to stand on when (not if) she chooses to do something like witholding your child.

Have you consulted with any attorneys? Many times it is free for a consultation and you can get questions answered as to what to expect when you do go to court.

No, you can't fathom using a child as a pawn to hurt someone. You don't think like that. All the more reason to stand up and assert your rights to your son- and his right to you, because he has no one protecting those rights for him, and he can't do it himself.

[JNChell]

IAR, I appreciate what you’ve said. It almost feels like you were scolding me. I appreciate the push. You’re right. I have to do something. Odds are, she’ll say that I can see him and yada, yada, yada. Until I can’t again. You know, I have real issues, but S5’s mom is  in the head. It’s really hard to not hate her. It just seems so simple. Care for the child. Said and done.

[I Am Redeemed]

IAR, I appreciate what you’ve said. It almost feels like you were scolding me. I appreciate the push. You’re right. I have to do something. Odds are, she’ll say that I can see him and yada, yada, yada. Until I can’t again. You know, I have real issues, but S5’s mom is  in the head. It’s really hard to not hate her. It just seems so simple. Care for the child. Said and done.

Consider it friendly encouragement, JNChell. Encouragement to look at it from a perspective that won't keep you stuck.

If your ex is narcissistic, that means she lacks the ability to have empathy, and that is not limited to you- it includes your son and others with whom she has relationships.

Just because someone is a parent does not mean the disorder will recede and allow the child's best interests to be put in the forefront. I know this from many experiences. It's sad, it's tragic, even, but it is reality.

You're expecting something from her that she cannot do. You can't wrestle empathy from someone who does not have the capacity for it.

[JNChell]

I know. It’s like I’m stuck in wishing that we had at least a reasonable understanding of how to have a child together. She takes him away all the damn time. I’m trying hard to be better. To be something new. It’s hard to do that when I’m controlled by the one thing that means the most to me. She’s relentless. I do everything wrong and I accept that. Is she really this mad at me? Do I really deserve to not see my Son? I don’t think so. It’s finally sinking in about what I’m dealing with. She will use him to hurt me and to avoid her stuff. I’m not trying to lay blame here. I’m a player in all of this. I would never keep him from her. I would never do that to him. How do I reach her? Do I just let go and hope? She knows how much I love him and she does this.

I’m very bad at causing narcissistic injuries to her. At least I think so. Her anger doesn’t make sense. What she says never lines up with the argument. It’s just lashing out.

I don’t want to lose my boy. How do you deal with not seeing your kiddos. I’m not trying to deflect or anything like that. It hurts to not see or speak to him. I’m just wondering how you do it.

[ForeverDad]

I’m trying hard to be better. To be something new. It’s hard to do that when I’m controlled by the one thing that means the most to me. She’s relentless. I do everything wrong and I accept that. Is she really this mad at me? Do I really deserve to not see my Son? I don’t think so. It’s finally sinking in about what I’m dealing with...

What I see... You are being a groveling appeaser and failing to find success no matter what you do.  Of course you can't succeed.  That's how her game is designed... for you to always fail any time she gets triggered.  She is using her possession of the child to turn you yet again into her Whipping Boy.  Every time you think you figure out a tactic and run toward your goal, she will move the goal post.

You will never win playing her game.  Sad but the reality.  Take your concerns to the referee... family court.  If you ponder which strategies will help you most - that's our expertise here in peer support - then your proactive experienced lawyer can spin the truth sufficiently well to get substantial rights secured.

[JNChell]

FD, I wanted to throw my phone against the wall. You’re right. I’ve been a groveling lay down. I sit here being pissed off and asking “why”? I’m not taking any action. I just bitch about it when something happens. I’m scared of her. I guess I will continue to be scared of her if I do nothing. What’s the worst that can happen? I still don’t see my boy? I think that the court will let me see my boy. I really don’t like her, FD. After learning everything I have here,  I don’t know how I got mixed up with her. Don’t get me wrong. I love my Son, but her? Yes, I’m still groveling. I know that you were away from your child for a while. How did it go when you were able to see your kiddo again? Was your kid apprehensive?

[I Am Redeemed]

Your anger is completely understandable, JNChell. Channel that into something constructive.

None of this is fair. It sucks. How do I deal with not seeing my kids? It goes deeper than that for me. My injury where this is concerned has gone on for years. I take courage in working towards improving myself and I find my sweet revenge, if you will, in rising up little by little, to become everything that people said I would not. I dig in my heels and each time I slide back into the mud of anger, despair, and depression, I crawl a few inches back forward and remind myself that it's ok to struggle, given all I've been through.

A groveling appeaser is a common position for a lot of us here, especially those of us who have experienced childhood trauma and adverse experiences. It's probably a remnant of a freeze/fawn trauma response. It's not a character flaw, it's just something for you to be aware of so you can consciously make an effort to do something different.

Also, let me say that while I give you advice, I am actively working in therapy to follow the exact same advice. I'm scared of my sister. She raised me, she's twenty years older and was the "mother" figure in my life. It's taken a lot of work in therapy for me to realize her narcissistic behaviors and traits. In fact, my therapist just asked me last week what we need to work on next and my answer was that I need to target the fear I feel around her. I'm getting ready to go to court myself and I expect a huge battle when she finds out I don't just want visitation- I want custody.

What scares you when you think about her? What do you think she could do that the courts could not help you with?

[JNChell]

IAR , thank you. It’s inspiring to see you fight for your children. It’s just crazy that you have to. You’ve done everything right and positives will come away from the hearing.

She scares me because she knows everything about me. She isn’t afraid to use it to hurt me. She terrifies me. She’s able to break me down. She also knows how to get me to react. I know, I should know better. I’m afraid of her because I think she’s evil and the fore mentioned is real.

I have behaved terribly, but I’m not evil. I don’t want to hurt anyone. Not even to save my skin. Hell, I don’t put myself in situations like that. She scares me. Now that I’ve learned, anyone that lacks empathy scares me.

[ForeverDad]

Although you weren't married, domestic court basically works the same for you as for anyone else.  It is there to unwind the relationship whether official or unofficial.  Probably the financial assets and debts is not an issue for you.  Just like in a divorce, the court will not require you to continue an adult relationship with your ex.

What is left?  Surely there may be child support to resolve.  Usually that depends on two factors... how much time each parent spends with the child and the comparative incomes of the parents, or the income potentials.

That leaves the custody (major decisions for the child) and the parenting schedule.  During temp orders one parent can have custody, but unless one parent is documented to be abusive to the child (substantive abuse, endangerment or neglect) the final order is typically joint custody.  The parenting schedule can easily start similar to the existing pattern.  This is where you would need to stand up for yourself and seek as much time as possible reporting she was blocking much of your access.

Once you have an order in hand, she loses much of her control pursuant to her moods and whims.  Sure, it won't be fun, but it's not fun now anyway.

[I Am Redeemed]

IAR , thank you. It’s inspiring to see you fight for your children. It’s just crazy that you have to. You’ve done everything right and positives will come away from the hearing.

It is crazy, and the whole, long, complex story is incredibly crazy. But I can't change what has happened. I can only go forward and keep taking the next right step. I'll never give up on my kids.

FD is right that with a court order, she will lose a lot of the power she holds over you regarding your son. There are also many members here who use parenting apps to communicate with the exBPD/NPD which leaves a documented trail of communication.

If she sends raging, manipulative, or abusive messages in a parenting app, you will have documentation of it. You can also choose to sift through the junk and respond only to what pertains to your son using BIFF communication techniques. You might consider having someone read through the blah, blah, blah, you're this, you're that stuff and see if there is anything in there about S5 that warrants a response. That may cut down on some of your reactivity, if your exposure to her toxicity is reduced.

[Radcliff]

How is it going, JNChell?  You are getting some great advice from zachira, IAR, and ForeverDad.  It is vital that you learn to abandon your attempts to reach agreement with your ex or rationally work things out with her.  It is reasonable for you to want this, but it is not realistic.  She is about power, not about negotiating a win-win.  You cannot change this.

You need a good lawyer, and you cannot afford to burn more time not having access to your son and not showing due diligence in legally pursuing time with him.  But even before that, you need to know what your goal is.  How much time do you want with him?  What does the future life you envision with him look like?  50/50?  Alternate weekends?  30% time?  Think about that for a while, because it's not necessarily simple.  With your work obligations and need for time on your own to heal, how much time with him would be best for the two of you?  Don't underestimate your potential to give and add value as a parent (certainly don't go by your ex's opinion), but also don't ask for more than you can handle.  Those of us coming out of a tough situation like yours are at risk of either extreme -- asking for too little time or too much.  Take some time to think about it.  What range of time percentages might be acceptable, and what's your goal?  Once you know that, act with the goal in mind.  He is five.  Court orders can be enforced.  You want to have those "golden years" before he turns into a tween to be stable ones, with you and him enjoying a new stable arrangement starting as soon as possible (it will take a long time, so start now).

RC

[JNChell]

I reached out to a local attorney that was recommended by my former therapist. She’s booked up. After that I sat thinking and remembered that a woman from the old circle of friends is an attorney. Turns out, she only deals in Family Law. Just got off the phone with her. A solid hour of talking. No catching up. It was all about a plan and resolution. I feel much better now. I don’t feel so helpless. She understands high conflict situations. What stuck out to me the most is that I have to make S5’s mom feel like she’s winning. I’ve read that scenario over and over again. I’ve been so afraid of taking this step. Hearing it from an old friend that loves what she does is nice.

Apparently, the Paternity Affidavit that I signed when S5 was born has information on the back that states my rights as a parent. It’s not enforceable, but it’s a start.

Thank you all for standing by me in my ignorance.

[I Am Redeemed]

This is a great step, JNChell. I think it will be good for you to have someone familiar helping you on this journey. I'm glad you took the initiative to do this and move forward towards being able to see your son again. 

[Crispy Waffle]

JNChell, I don't have a lot to add because I'm not much farther ahead than you. I do have the benefit of having older kids and a hig-functioning wife (soon to be ex wife). But I experienced much of what you did, and I am constantly compelled to engage in the battle with her. But it is pointless, and will ultimately cost you. But you have realized that, so now you just need to work on keeping yourself in control. You can't control her. You can control you. But it's tough.

I caught a lucky rebound when my uBPDw sent my world into a tailspin. A friend I hadn't had much contact with in recent years gave me some wonderful guidance on keeping rubber side down and the shiny side up.  He has helped me with getting into a routine of mindfullness, taking a personal inventory, and getting in touch with who I am and what I bring to this relationship. It is allowing me to deal with her more productively (emphasis on "more", because I still slip at times). You need to figure out how to change your conditioned reactions to stressors/conflict, and learn how to CHOOSE the way you react to life's events. It's not easy, but you have overcome the first hurdle which is developing the insight that you need to change.

And I'll leave you with this; the fact that you recognize and acknowledge your role in this, and that your priority is to raise a healthy child reveals that you aren't the fundamental problem. She can't do that. so document all of this; both your and her behavior so that you can demonstrate that very fact. She won't be able to do the same. And it will be apparent. Just don't give her any ammo as others have noted.

[JNChell]

Thank you CW. I’m running out of things to say. Perhaps I’m the narcissist.

[I Am Redeemed]

Thank you CW. I’m running out of things to say. Perhaps I’m the narcissist.

Narcissists don't generally reflect on their own behavior and wonder if they're the problem

[ForeverDad]

Narcissists don't generally reflect on their own behavior and wonder if they're the problem

Hey, that's what we tell members who worry if they really are the ones with BPD...
Borderlines don't generally reflect on their own behavior and wonder if they're the problem

[I Am Redeemed]

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