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Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits. Practicing lawyer, Senior Family Mediator, and former Licensed Clinical Social Worker with twelve years’ experience and an expert on navigating the Family Court process.
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Author Topic: Can this ship be turned around?  (Read 798 times)
RestlessWanderer
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« on: September 23, 2020, 01:07:32 PM »

Not sure if there’s any changing this situation or not, but I’m open to suggestions.
So, last weekend my wife made a comment about not being able to work on a gift for some family friends. She said she had wanted me to take our son to do something so she could have the house to herself. After she said this I reached out to a buddy to see if he wanted to go camping with his son. A fun father son camping trip. A couple of days later I told my wife about our plan to go camping. She immediately shot it down saying it was too cold, adding that she didn’t say she wanted to have alone time. I pointed out that theweather would be heating up. But at that point she only heard me “arguing“ and attributed it to me being a “typical stubborn male” to which she added that it is stupid to go camping this time of year. “No one goes camping after Labor Day, not even with a camper trailer.”
I understand that yes, the temperatures over night will drop to close to freezing. But with the right preparation these temperatures are manageable, even in a tent. My buddy has a camper with a heater just in case (and since his wife is pregnant, they have been tested for COVID, just in case that question is asked).
My son asked her again yesterday if we could go. Which set her off (not a major storm, but unhappy nonetheless). She asked me why I was pushing so hard to go. Then she deduced that my buddy had to be part of the plan. Since I hadn’t mentioned that before, she then twisted that into me lying.
So now, if I try to say anything about camping she will surely see me as being stubborn, argumentative, and a liar.

Anyone think I can turn this around? Any advice on how?
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« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2020, 06:20:31 PM »


So...do you need permission from your wife to go do things like this?

Does your wife wait until  she has your permission to do things like this?

If those issues are even, then you need to wait on her.

If you need permission but she doesn't need permission...then you have some thinking do to

Here is the thing...your wife asked you for time alone, why not just say sure thing babe..I've got it covered and then go do you thing?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2020, 07:22:46 PM »

If you need permission but she doesn't need permission...then you have some thinking to do.

Exactly.

Expecting a pwBPD to agree, support our decision, compromise, work together in harmony...may be a hopeless task. Far better to make autonomous decisions that they then can then choose to be part of, or not.
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« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2020, 07:29:54 PM »

I don’t think permission is the right way to look at this.
That being said, if I just up and took him camping who knows what she would do. The couple of time I’ve left to do something that I wanted to do, she flew into a fury. Once she went to our other house, where I stay when things are bad, and destroyed it. She threw everything off the counters breaking things in her wake. The last time I left, she picked up a baseball sized rock and threw it at me.
I’m not trying to set her off.

Because of those past events I don’t have hope for a future. But since we’re in the midst of sorting out all the legal issues surrounding the car accident that disabled her and took the life of our son, I’m trying to keep things peaceful for all of our sakes.

But now the cats out of the bag, so I’m looking for advice on maybe peacefully having her come around.

I guess she wins this one.
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« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2020, 07:51:37 PM »

The last time I left, she picked up a baseball sized rock and threw it at me.
I’m not trying to set her off.
 

How did all the legal concerns regarding her assault and destruction get settled?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2020, 07:59:54 PM »

I get that you are encouraging me to feel empowered. I understand that I shouldn’t have tolerated the violence. I also understand that giving in to these threats and control only give her more control. But what’s done is done. My big picture, long term, has me leaving and being free of this hell.

This camping trip is not the time to wake that dragon. Maybe I’m being a coward. But I don’t want that right now. I’m trying to preserve the peace for my sons sake.

I probably shouldn’t have asked for advice on this one.
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« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2020, 08:11:58 PM »



If you don't like the direction you are heading, why not turn around?

What do you gain by continuing to drive in the wrong direction? (there may be an answer, but make sure you have clearly thought about it)


How is preserving the peace going?  Are you enjoying all the peace you have had?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2020, 08:23:11 PM »

Now I feel even worse.

All I wanted was to see if anyone had advice or thought I might be able to change her mind.
But now I see that I really can’t complain since I’m the one giving her the power. I’ve let her see me as less and less after years of giving in and feeding her control. Ive become less and less by giving in and feeding her control.

I should have called the police the first time she hit me, and the second, and the third. I definitely should have when she kicked me and destroyed all those things. If I had, there probably wouldn’t have ever been a rock thrown at me. If I had I wouldn’t be wondering if there might be a way I could take my son camping without worrying about more destruction and violence.

But I didn’t. I wish it was as easy as just doing what I want. But it’s not that easy. I’ve made my bed and I’m still sleeping in it. So, I just need to accept that as long as I’m married to her there’s nothing I can do improve things. In this marriage, no tools or tips or books or articles will help. My acceptance of this will be the only thing that I can do to feel better about my situation.

After all, I wake up every morning and say to myself “I am choosing to stay.” It’s supposed to be empowering, but all it does  is remind me that I’m giving her the control, so I shouldn’t complain about it.
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« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2020, 08:42:38 PM »


 Virtual hug (click to insert in post) Virtual hug (click to insert in post) Virtual hug (click to insert in post) Virtual hug (click to insert in post) Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

Hey...I need to speak some truth.  Please listen and then be kind to yourself. 




I’ve made my bed and I’m still (choosing to)sleeping in it.

So, I just need to accept that as long as I’m married to her there’s nothing I can do improve things. In this marriage, no tools or tips or books or articles will help. My acceptance of this will be the only thing that I can do to feel better about my situation.


Please don't "jump" to any one individual decision.  There are lots of moving parts here.

Before you can make more decisions...you have to tell yourself the truth, even if it's painful.

 Virtual hug (click to insert in post) Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

Best,

FF
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« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2020, 08:45:19 PM »

To simplify: someone staying in a burning house shouldn’t get mad at the fire for burning them.
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« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2020, 08:59:47 PM »

To simplify: someone staying in a burning house shouldn’t get mad at the fire for burning them.

That's assuming there is a clear path toward an exit. That isn't always true.

Try to give yourself a little compassion, RW. You have experienced a lot of trauma, and I'm not just talking about an emotionally/physically/mentally abusive relationship.

You lost a child. A young child. A child the same age as my son.

 That is an extremely painful and highly traumatic experience that not everyone here can put on their list of traumas. It's unimaginable, and I cannot even express to you how much my heart breaks for this one, single, heart wrenching pain that every parent fears the most. Putting aside all else you are dealing with, this alone would cause me to be lost in how to function daily.

Please do not hear the words of the members here as judgment. Please hear them as those who have been in similar situations and made similar decisions and been caught in similar dilemmas.

We are trying to help guide you into ways to take your power back (yes, even in the situation as it stands), I assure you. It's not like it's a skill taught in school. It is not second nature.

It is possible. Keep an open mind and try to be kind to yourself.  Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2020, 09:10:50 PM »

So I'll try to give an idea of what you might do, because I've been where you are. Others in the thread are pointing you in the right direction for making things better in the long term, but I get that that's not what you're going to do right now with this particular trip. You just want to go camping and would prefer things not be destroyed when you get back. I've been in exactly that situation, and tried to figure out ways to somehow make it okay for me to go out of town. Again, it's not any kind of advice for improving the situation as a whole, or pushing things in a healthier direction for you, but maybe it gets at your specific question here.

Apologize and explicitly give the choice about camping to her. Tell her you realize that you should have talked with her before calling your buddy and before making plans, and that you're sorry you did that. You understand her concerns about the camping trip. You would like to go, and your son seems excited, and you think it will be safe. Again, you're sorry that you made this plan without her, but if she decides it's okay for y'all to go, please let you know that. You're not going to go if it's not okay with her, and you need to tell your buddy by whatever date/time. So just let you know. Sorry again. It makes complete sense that you'd be upset by this.

You get the idea. I'm just guessing, but my guess is she didn't like plans being made without her knowledge. And despite you feeling controlled by her, she doesn't think she has any control, and so she is trying to exert that control. So try just giving it to her explicitly, make the decision hers at this point, and hope she makes the decision you want, but be prepared to not go camping. There's some chance she doesn't really care at all that you go camping. She just wants to be the one to control that.

Again, this is terrible advice for actually improving things in any larger sense, but if right now you're in the how can I work with these behaviors and maintain some status quo and still get something I want, then something like that might work.

Please stick with what others are saying, and keep focusing on the larger dynamics at play. Basically ditto everything Redeemed said. 
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« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2020, 09:23:24 PM »

short term- if you don't want your stuff to be destroyed and you haven't taken any precautions to prevent that while you're gone- then yes, what sc said.

Please note that this keeps you caught in the cycle of "appeasement''.

Long term- if you don't want her to have the opportunity to destroy things when she doesn't get her way- you're going to have to make choices that may blow up the r/s but protect your boundaries.

Basically, there may not be a way to "make her okay with what I'm doing" AND protect yourself (and your material possessions, physical and emotional well-being, etc. ) at the same time.

It's generally one or the other, in other words. Either you give in to keep the peace and thereby save your material possessions, physical or emotional well-being, or you put safeguards in place (through your own actions, setting boundaries) that give you the freedom to make your own decisons without leaving some area of your life vulnerable to retaliation by her.

Sometimes areas of your life will still be vulnerable in the sense that some disordered people will push any boundary that has been set. In that case, be prepared for the "if you do x, I will do y" mindset. ''If you destroy my property, I will file a police report."
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« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2020, 09:34:50 PM »

Try to give yourself a little compassion, RW. 

Double and triple yes.

I also think you need to "stop".  And I don't exactly know what that looks like but you are locked into (or appear to be) this notion that there isn't anything you can do to improve until you leave the marriage for good.

Uggg...black and white...completely all bad util completely all good.  There is a lot of pain "telling" you this.  Circle back up to the compassion and kindness for YOU.

You are going in the wrong direction (or believe yourself to be)...so stop.  Don't go the other way...just stop.

Maybe pull out a "map".

But just stop...care for yourself...confess to yourself that you are a bit lost or a lot...and not sure what to do.

I'm so sorry man...you have several big..big painful things around.  I can't imagine one...let alone all at once.

"put on your own mask first"...

 Virtual hug (click to insert in post) Virtual hug (click to insert in post) Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

Stop and rest for a bit.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2020, 09:45:57 PM »

Thanks Redeemed and Stolencrumbs

I guess right now I’m just feeling crappier than usual. While I was just trying to find a way through this specific situation I found myself staring at the bigger problem and feeling the weight of all of it, and it’s a lot as redeemed summed it up.

I’m just so tired of it all. In just a couple of weeks it will be the one year mark of that terrible tragedy. And to also have to deal with the daily BPD crap while I try to be the stable one for my son as well as do my work and help with the house and yard work is tough to say the least. Despite all of this I’m doing well and handling things good. I know that I’m a good person and I’m not responsible for my wife’s reactions or mental state. I also know that she isn’t holding me hostage. Ultimately, the power to leave is mine. But making the call when to leave is complicated and not as easy as just leaving.

So day in and day out, I try my best to communicate well, to overcome the emotional weight of all of this, to not make things worse, to keep moving in a positive direction, to definitely put on my mask first, etc. And I know that I am doing a damn good job of all of this.

The advice to just take back control and not ask permission pushed a button. Then thinking about how in many ways I’ve given her this power kinda slapped me in the face.

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« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2020, 05:16:26 AM »

most of your threads ask a question around the same theme:

"can this relationship be saved".

if that is your goal, why not post on Bettering, learn, and work the tools proactively?
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« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2020, 12:13:55 PM »

I’ve been confused by posts getting relocated so I haven’t been so sure where my posts belong.
The support I’ve received on this board has seemed to be pretty focused on how to use the tools proactively. But realistically speaking, unless my wife decides to get treatment, there isn’t much hope for bettering the relationship. I’ve lost confidence in the tools doing anything to better the relationship. I do think the tools help me to cope with her disregulation, but there’s no stopping her from disregulating. So, I’m just keeping the peace as best I can until things clear up with the legal issues surrounding the car accident. Once that’s behind us, I will be ready to begin detaching and moving on.
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« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2020, 12:23:37 PM »

But realistically speaking, unless my wife decides to get treatment, there isn’t much hope for bettering the relationship.

I'm not trying to be argumentative...I am trying to help you see a different possibility or point of view.

As a general statement, I say there are massive amounts of improvement possible in BPDish relationships based solely on changes the "non" can make.

For instance:  If a "non" removed 90% of the invalidation from their input to relationship I would expect a massive change for the better.  Especially if this could be done consistently for 6 months (or longer).

(Hint...this is essentially what I did.  Once I understood invalidation and removed most of it, things changed)

And that's just "one tool".

There are several things going on in your posts.  Would you like to start a specific post about what you can do (without your wife's involvement) to change your relationship for the better?

Best,

FF


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« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2020, 12:38:22 PM »

 Would you like to start a specific post about what you can do (without your wife's involvement) to change your relationship for the better?

I guess I thought that’s what I had been doing with most of what I post. But, yes. I’m willing to keep trying.

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« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2020, 01:55:22 PM »


Can you pick a couple of tools and a couple of examples where you tried to apply the tool and yet you came away frustrated or with the feeling it wasn't working?

From that I think we can guide the conversation better.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2020, 03:30:30 PM »

FF, here’s one that just happened. It’s basically related to the camping situation.

My wife called today me to ask what the plan was now for camping with my buddy. So, I told her that we were thinking of going camping to our usual spot. But since she thought it was going to be too cold I canceled it. She asked what was going to happen now. I said the trip was off and my buddy mentioned that he might go camping somewhere closer to where he lives. She then said that if we went that I couldn’t take the truck because I don’t have a good track record (I got stuck high in the mountains last year and had to get pulled out, in her eyes that one mistake defined my judgement).
Then she brought up how she perceived the planning to go for this trip. She said that I had planned this trip with my buddy, then used her wish to have time to herself as an excuse. Then me not mentioning my buddy when I first brought up the camping trip was lying by omission.
To this I replied with how things had played out. I contacted my buddy after she said she wanted the time to herself (JADE, I know, but I didn’t see another option). That’s when we made the plan to go camping. Once he was on board, I told her about wanting to go camping with our son to give her time alone. She immediately had a strong response regarding the cold and denying that she wanted the time to make something for our neighbors. Based on the strong and quick reaction I opted for not saying anything else, including how I had started to plan with my buddy.
She didn’t believe that I had done it like this. She believes that I had been planning this trip for some time and took advantage of her expressing wishes for time alone and using that as an excuse to go with him.
Then she hung up on me. She’s now texting me that I should just go. And is adding that she’s treating me the way that I am treating her. Hence the tone of anger in her messages.
I am hesitant in responding because I don’t want to JADE more, I don’t want to make things worse. I don’t know how to validate her without sounding patronizing or like I’m quoting a therapist.
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« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2020, 03:38:05 PM »

If she is telling you to go, why not go?

Can you get a security system and lock for the trailer?
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« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2020, 03:53:41 PM »


I think you should go...

I dealt with this exact thing..EXACT kind of mind reading and "reality creation".

Here is what I do now...probably have done this in the last month or two even.

FFw:  blah blah blah you this, then that then took advantage of me saying xyz to abc

FF  (perhaps a bit perplexed) "oh are you interested in the actual order of events?"

wait silently..

FFw: blah blah blah BPD and unicorns and witches on broomsticks you did abc

FF:  Oh my..I'm curious about accurately understanding all this.  Are you?


Here is the FF theory.  JADE is bad.  (getting in a yes/no thing) 

And I'm not going to present an alternate view unless she explicitly says she is interested.   Perhaps once or twice she has said she is interested and I then asked if now was a good time to talk or should I go get us some drinks to share...something like that.  (very nonchalant)

Thoughts?

FF

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« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2020, 05:25:06 PM »

I agree that I should go. I believe that she will now take the stance that I better go because she won’t want me to use this against her in the future if I don’t go.

There’s another layer of complication that I think should be considered. But I’d like to get some thoughts on whether or not I should let this factor in. She has a tendency to set traps, so I’m anticipating one here. But I understand that it’s important to break this cycle.

So, here it is. We have two couches that have been sitting in our garage waiting for some friends of hers to pick up. They were supposed to pick them up yesterday, then canceled. Then they were going to come today, but canceled. My wife told me this morning that they are now supposed to come tomorrow. My presence is required to load and unload them since I am one of the two able bodied people that will be doing the work. Obviously there hasn’t been any urgency to get them moved. But now that there might be a plan to finally do it I’d like to not be blamed for it not getting done.

So, I’d like advice on how to talk to her about all of this. This is where “speaking BPD” becomes important. This is the skill I need to employ in this situation.

Part one: I need to communicate to her that I’d like to follow through with the trip for my son and I. I need help putting together this communication so it is validating and removes her perception that she’s the bad guy keeping us from doing it. At least that’s what I’m seeing.

Part two: ensure that leaving is not placing increased burden on my wife (basically don’t make things worse). I need help navigating this aspect as well.

Any advice on approaching this is welcome, as well as any opinions on whether or not I should be considering all of these aspects.

Thank you for reading, and thank you in advance for responding.

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« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2020, 06:37:04 PM »


Dude...

Over-functioning alert!  Go on the trip.  Stop talking to your wife about it.

Also embrace that you will be blamed for the sky being pink, your wife being grumpy, couches in the garage and poorly trimmed shrubbery.

Practice this response..."I see.."  Then go about your business.

Dude...

But now that there might be a plan to finally do it I’d like to not be blamed for it not getting done.

In the real world, people get asked directly ahead of time if they are needed for something.

So...when they ask you to load couches.  "If you need my help for couches, I'll be available on X..." then go about your business.

blah blah blah you will load couches on Y. 

you:  "That doesn't work for me.  I'm available to load couches on X."

Bottom line:  Stop trying to "control BPD"...it doesn't work. 

Best,

FF


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« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2020, 06:46:18 PM »

I think what FF says is important here.

It seems you have fallen into a pattern of trying to stay one or two steps ahead of an emotionally and mentally disordered person, anticipating what your next move should be in case the moods/emotions shift and the next dysregulation happens.

You cannot stay on "high alert" like this.

It's time to break the pattern of letting someone else's moods/emotions control YOUR life.

What if you do get blamed for not putting your plans on hold so you can be available at the exact moment in time someone decides that they are now ready to pick up couches that have been available for days?

Is it your fault?

Can you live with your wife thinking it is your fault?

Your thought processes seemed to be centered around manipulating, navigating, controlling her perspective of you. That is understandable and many of us have fallen into that pattern. It's not productive and it is the very definition of walking on eggshells.

Self-differentiation means we can make our own choices regardless of someone else's opinion of us, our actions, our choices, our motives. It means knowing your own truth and being content with that without trying to convince someone else (especially a disordered person) to see and recognize your truth.
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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 7480



« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2020, 10:11:56 AM »

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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
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