Daughter found messages on phone

[Enabler]

Last week dd10 found messages on W's phone between her and the boyfriend. She did not like this at all and ran to mine (another thread). W has told dd7 that "I love you babes", "I love you too" is what adult mates say to each other and that Daddy is telling dd10 and dd12 a pack of lies to make them hate her"... so it would appear that rather than using her opportunity and I would argue only chance to tell the truth and then rebuild the childrens trust, she has opted to dig further into her hole and tell more lies. dd10 cannot fathom why W has done this and cannot work out what W's end zone is. Her whole narrative and social structure is reliant on this truth staying "a different version of reality".

Does she care about the kids, yes she does and she was a good attentive mother when they were young. BUT, as time has gone on she has become less and less attentive and more and more self-focused making choices prioritising spending time with the boyfriend rather than spending time with the kids. Because of the deciete around him there was choice; spend time with the boyfriend or spend time with kids or try and spend time with the boyfriend and his kids AND spend time with kids... but since I objected to the deceitful nature of those interactions I objected. She therefore chose the boyfriend. W will choose the option that gives her the most utility, the path of most personal pleasure. It's all about her.

I am now doing 85% of the parenting dd10/dd12 100%, dd7 50%.

I am MASSIVELY frazzled... logistical and practical arrangements I can deal with, I'm all over that and it's what I was designed for... trying to look down the road to prepare myself for the next slow motion train wreck of chaos my W is going to throw at us and protecting the kids from that fallout is proving to be a colossal emotional burden. One thing that I am trying to get my head around is this... professionals keep telling me that the only important thing is that the girls need to know that Dad AND Mum love them. Without going down the complex rabbit warren of what is love, surely in a child's mind love is things like, do they prioritise me, do they make decisions with me at the centre, are they trustworthy... yes parents might say "I love you" but if they don't actually behave in a loving way then do children actually just take the words on face value rather than the actions? This doesn't feel like loving behaviour even though the words "I love you" a regularly spoken. Am I to support the idea that my wife 'loves' the kids even though I don't see love in the choices she makes which impact them on a daily basis?

New-Life

[kells76]

Am I to support the idea that my wife 'loves' the kids even though I don't see love in the choices she makes which impact them on a daily basis?

New-Life, that's an important question, and I'm glad you're asking it at this point.

One of the concepts that we talk about here is validation. More members will be along to flesh it out, but for starters, a key part of validation is the practice of noticing and commenting on what's real.

Validation is not the practice of agreeing with anything that anyone says, or saying that it's right (or wrong) to feel a certain way, or to try to get someone to feel better. It's not about convincing anyone of anything.

It's about tuning into what a person is actually feeling, and helping them know that you notice.

So, in the example of "am I just supposed to tell my kids that Mommy loves them no matter what"... (as an approximation of your question):

Kids: "I found these texts on Mom's phone and I'm so angry. Why does she spend all her time talking to the boyfriend instead of me?"

Invalidation would be this:

You: "Don't worry, kids; Mommy and I love you so much! You can feel better and not be anxious. Don't be so upset! We'll make it through."

Validation would be this:

You: "You sound upset, and you're wondering why Mommy texts with the boyfriend. How do you feel when you notice that?"

...

The invalidating response can actually seem normal to many of us, given our backgrounds. After all, you're just trying to reassure the kids, right? Help them feel better, and know you've got it under control? Well, unfortunately, that response, even if well intentioned, is invalidating (whether meant or not). Instead of focusing on how your kids feel, and asking a validating question, the response immediately moved to "damage control", "smoothing things over", and "making everyone feel OK". Instead of taking the time to show through your words and actions that how your kids feel is important to you, that response implicitly sends the message that "it's not OK to be upset about this... we just have to be happy and power through. Also, even if you are questioning what it means for a parent to love you, don't! A parent loving you means they do things that feel hurtful to you". That would be the unfortunate implicit message from reinforcing "Mommy loves you" -- that being loved is the same as being hurt, ignored, and minimized.

And I know you don't want to do that -- you're here, you're asking these questions.

The validating response, at least for me, can be more vulnerable. It's an open-ended question that can open a door to a lot coming from a kid. Sometimes I don't feel up for it with my SD's. I need to be aware and slow down in order to be wise and self-managed enough to use validating questions.

As an aside, validating questions are ones that are often open-ended (i.e., not a "yes or no" answer), that don't contain "the answer" within the question (i.e., we're not typically asking "did you feel mad at Mommy when she did that"), and are often really short (i.e., we're not prefacing the question with a lecture about what's going on).

The validating response takes the attention off of you and off of your kids' mom, and places it where it's important: how your kids are feeling and what they're thinking. Weirdly, responding to stuff with "but I love you" or "but Mommy loves you" can be invalidating because it puts the focus on you and your W. For kids, it can be kind of a downer, in a way, to hear "but Mommy loves you" when they're trying to say "but here's how I feel". They would like some attention on their feelings, but instead Mom's feelings get talked about.

Validation keeps the focus on your kids' feelings, whatever they are.

professionals keep telling me that the only important thing is that the girls need to know that Dad AND Mum love them.

OK, so, bouncing back to this idea.

Whose responsibility is it to communicate your love for your kids to them?

Whose responsibility is it to communicate your W's love for your kids to them?

...

This might be a lot! I'll slow down now and we can keep talking back and forth.

[Skip]

New-life, what you are going through is very typical of what happens when a family splits up. Think of everything you are seeing in your children as grieving.

There are 4 phases or stages of grieving:

• Denial • Anger • Sadness • Acceptance/Accepting

It's not unusual that one parent gets blamed. It's also not unusual that the anger flips to the other parent.

You are at a very critical juncture (both of you). You can make this about yourselves and pull the children into your marital squabble which is endless and unresolvable and could hurt them at very deep levels or you can lay down your adult weapons and see this for what it is, children going through the grief cycle.

Some parents would see this and partner up to get the children help to get through the grief cycle in a reasonable time frame and come out of the process with a reasonably balanced perspective. They would try to avoid embroiling them in a protracted, win/lose battle.

... professionals keep telling me that the only important thing is that the girls need to know that Dad AND Mum love them.

... and they are telling you not to conflate your loss, grief, and recovery in this situation with their loss, grief, and recovery. You and your children should be on very different paths.

Am I to support the idea that my wife 'loves' the kids even though I don't see love in the choices she makes which impact them on a daily basis?

Are you in the best place emotionally to determine that your wife does not love her children and to lead your children (consciously or subconsciously) to that reach that same conclusion?

Remember, your girls are a risk for developing BPD traits. It runs in families ad if mom has BPD, there is a 50% chance of each child developing traits. A mismanaged co-parenting gambit could be the emotional burn that flips them into lifelong turmoil.

Having a person that you and your wife convey that you both trust, helping them sort this out (and coaching you and stbx-wife) is an opportunity to avoid deep rooted emotional scars.

Question: Was a couples therapist involved in the decision that you and your wife should split up? What was the outcome of that?

[livednlearned]

It's all about her

You seem to be very focused on her too.

We know she's a tornado of chaos.

The risk for the girls, what they are learning from watching you and mom, is that chaos is an effective way to get attention.

If you want your girls to heal, you have to shift your fixation. They are all but begging for this. If there is a vacuum, and no one is demonstrating a different way, mom will end up filling it.

Am I to support the idea that my wife 'loves' the kids even though I don't see love in the choices she makes which impact them on a daily basis?

Who is asking you to support the idea that your wife loves the kids?

The professionals are making a blanket statement. Mom has her job and you have yours.

What Skip said about BPD in the girls is a real risk. You have the opportunity to change the script that's formed/forming by getting the girls into counseling.

BPD showing up in a child is gutting. Seeing BPD traits develop in the teen years and become persistent personality traits is exquisitely painful for a parent to witness.

[Enabler]

Morning all,

I've finally stopped the walls from caving in on me despite STBeXW adding insult to injury sending an email yesterday chasing her ludicrous, inaccurate and practically unworkable divorce financial proposal among other things which seem utterly unimportant at the moment vs this current crisis.

Livednlearned, I am acutely aware and have been for some time that dd12 has many of the emotional sensitivity traits that make her a prime candidate for BPD in later life. I even mentioned this to my W when I first discovered BPD in 2017. I found out last night via dd10 that dd12 had seen a folder called "Divorce" on mum's computer some time (not sure) between Spring 2018 and Spring 2020... she never said anything, she just carried that burden around with her. I spoke to dd12 about it, I said that I was sorry that she saw that and hadn't been able to tell anyone about it. I said that must have been horrible for her to go through and horrible to go through alone. I said to her (softly) that there are trained people who are lovely to talk to and super experienced in these things and don't know mummy and daddy who she can talk to and can help her work through things. Tears welled up in her eyes before she nodded and said she wanted to be on her own. She needs to want to go to the T, I know that much, else she will flatly refuse and run away. I think I can talk her round to the idea.

W sent me a few messages last night say that 'this should not be child led' and that we needed to get the kids to a child T ASAP... I agreed with her but then asked how she supposed we would get a dd12 and dd10 to the T without physically forcing them to go. I'm without doubt pro the kids seeing a T, but they have been lied to and manipulated enough and I'm not going back to being bad cop. At the moment I am the one person on the planet they trust (a little) and I will not risk that ember to appease my W's demands that this is resolved ASAP. In any case from what I have experienced in my own therapeutic relationship, this is a slow burn.

From the conversations I have had with the children, and I have been very open with them about my parenting and the changes I have made to my parenting style over the years, it's observable that I parent in a different way to Mum. They have verbalised that I have much more consistency, better boundaries (used different words), do not get as angry as often and that I am organised and it's less stressful to be around me. dd10 was telling me last night that she used to get up at 06:30 on school days because Mummy would have her unload the dishwasher and do a bunch of other tasks yet Mum would still come down, shout at the kids for being late and dd10 would go to school crying. dd10 said she now wakes up at 07:30, is ready in 20 minutes and leaves for school early, relaxed and peacefully. dd7 used to sit on the sofa and tell Mum to bring school clothes, tooth brush and other things to her on the sofa, PJs and pullups were left on the kitchen floor and there was lot of shouting. dd7 tries that but is soon told to get on her bike. I think the kids see that with me, if something doesn't work, it is changed, it's fixed. Silly things like a kiss hello, kiss goodbye. They like that, they're starting to model that. I can see the positive benefits of being able to define and differentiate my parenting now that we are physically separated, when we were somewhat parallel parenting in the same house it was all a little clouded.

Skip, I hear you on the grief cycle and can certainly see that in the kids... they do laps of it almost by the minute (crazy 8's). I'm trying to get dd10 to write down her thoughts, she wrote and email to her Mum last night which she doesn't plan to send. I think she saw the benefits of writing these things and then revisiting them a few days later till she has her thoughts formalised. At the moment it's a lot of vitriol but it's softening because she can't suppress the fact that ultimately she does love her Mum and misses her a lot. The letter contains a lot of ultimatums at the moment (bargaining). You have mentioned that the tables will likely turn on me soon and they will blame me. I hope this doesn't happen but as you say it's somewhat predictable. I wonder whether the fact that i have openly blamed myself and asked for their forgiveness for numerous things will mean that is less so. I'm haven't come from a position of superiority, I've come from lower than low humility and earned their trust and respect again over a number of years.

New-Life 

[Skip]

They have verbalised that I have much more consistency, better boundaries (used different words), do not get as angry as often and...

Be careful with this. I wasn't there so I don't know the exact context, but it reads like grooming and validation seeking on your part.

Your wife greatly invalidated you and that is a big wound. It became a nightmare marriage and she treated you like an unwanted dog.  You need to heal that and we can help. Its natural to turn to the children for help (they love you), but it is not good for them.

What I mean by "grooming" is teaching them to learn what you need to hear (and not hear) while wife does the same... and making them the brokers of the peace.

I spoke to dd12 about it, I said that I was sorry that she saw that and hadn't been able to tell anyone about it. I said that must have been horrible for her to go through and horrible to go through alone.

There is a not so subtle message a lot of things you have said to the children since the breakup that say that mom betrayed and destroyed the family and mom is bad... and you sincerely feel that is true.

This is how parental alienation battle starts. Your wife will counter when you are vulnerable... I'd really advise you to steer clear of it all.

You can look at this as all you wife's fault and you have plenty to point to. Or you can look at this as a marriage that failed, died, and is over... write it off... and focus on your new-life.

You don't want children to be in a position to reject her because they don't like something she did... because you will eventually do something they don't like... and they will reject you... so don't teach them how to do that.

It is no longer about your old-life of betrayal and a broken marriage - its all about your new-life as a single father. Don't make parenting hard for yourself... getting along with the ex and making co-parenting work is to your benefit.

W sent me a few messages last night say that 'this should not be child led' and that we needed to get the kids to a child T ASAP... I agreed with her but then asked how she supposed we would get a dd12 and dd10 to the T without physically forcing them to go. I'm without doubt pro the kids seeing a T, but...

You can all go together (or various subsets of that). The first step is for you and stbx-wife to agree to doing this (and working together in the spirit of goodwill). The second step is for the two of you to see the T and get instructions on how to bring the kids in.

[worriedStepmom]

I'm glad that your W supports therapy.  So often BPD parents do not.

I shamelessly bribed my son to get him to go to therapy.  If he went without complaint and was open and honest with the therapist (per the T) and didn't just talk about Pokemon, then he'd get a prize.  (often it was a special lunch date after the session - he got to miss an extra half hour of school and eat a fast food burger with mom.)

[Enabler]

Skip, i hear you on the PA thing, however I can only apologise for my own involvement, my own involvement being that we were getting a divorce, the divorce was happening and I was too gutless to push forward in telling the kids even though I knew it was the right thing to do. I was complicit in the lie, not just for the kids benefit, but for MY benefit because I hoped things would change direction. I have already apologised to my daughters for this.

Re the grooming observation, yes I can see it might read that way. I suppose I saw it as a feedback loop, I have accepted that my parenting was not and is not perfect. Although I am not looking for approval from the kids in all aspects of parenting and invariably there are going to be things which at the time they feel is unfair and unreasonable. However, parenting needs to work for everyone and having a parent/child appraisal every now and again I think is a good thing... good leaders do that don't they? The conversations weren't along the lines of "My way is better than her way isn't... hu... hu... hu!", more along the lines of dd10 saying "Things are way calmer in the mornings here"... "Huuu, why do you think that is?"... "XYZ ABC... You do ____ "... "Why thank you dd10, I'm glad I help provide a calm morning for you, that's what I aim for". I also welcome her criticising what doesn't work and where I could do better.

New-Life 

[livednlearned]

W sent me a few messages last night say that 'this should not be child led' and that we needed to get the kids to a child T ASAP... I agreed with her but then asked how she supposed we would get a dd12 and dd10 to the T without physically forcing them to go.

How did she respond?

If it were you who had the affair and dd12 refused to come over, what might be your next step?

They have verbalised that I have much more consistency, better boundaries (used different words), do not get as angry as often and that I am organised and it's less stressful to be around me

There's no doubt you're a better parent than mom. BPD traits all but see to that.

Chances are you have weaker boundaries vs. no boundaries. There is probably a habitually high degree of triangulation in play regardless of conflict levels and an above average need for validation that can be hard to recognize if it's all you've known.

It doesn't make us bad parents or horrible people, it just means there are areas of growth that are almost certain to exist and will impact how our kids process their trauma.

There are creative ways to get kids into counseling that don't require brute strength. The fact that mom wants this makes it a golden opportunity. In all the years I've been on this board I've never heard of a BPD parent begging for a child to get therapy, it's usually the other way around.

You have an amazing opening.

[kells76]

There are creative ways to get kids into counseling that don't require brute strength. The fact that mom wants this makes it a golden opportunity. In all the years I've been on this board I've never heard of a BPD parent begging for a child to get therapy, it's usually the other way around.

You have an amazing opening.

Hey New-Life, this is great stuff.

I'm really glad you're here and dialoging with us.

I hear your concerns about "strong-arming" the kids into doing stuff. You're right; brute force (physical, emotional, mental, whatever) rarely helps us in these high-conflict separations. You're right to wonder.

That being said, "no force" doesn't do much for us -- or, more importantly, the kids -- either.

Time to be strategic. Time for jiu-jitsu. Redirect the forces at play towards something really positive and healthy for your kids.

LnL is so right -- this is a golden opportunity, and the thing is, what so many of us on the boards have been through, is that there is often a window of time to take advantage of the disordered other parent's moves. It doesn't last as an opening forever. Once Mom starts to suspect that she may be "outed" if the kids are in therapy, she may shut down -- hard.

I want to warmly encourage you to, instead of... and forgive me, I don't know quite how to say this, but understand we've been there with "get the kids into T"... I want to encourage you to bypass any reaction you may be feeling to your stbxW proposing "let's not have this be child led", and accept that regardless of who's saying it, it's right.

And I want to propose another angle of looking at "how do we get the kids into T without force".

As difficult as things are between your stbxW and you with your relationship unwinding, consider what Skip has said about leveraging this moment to set the tone for your new coparenting relationship.

Can you "throw her a bone", as it were, and reply to

'this should not be child led' and that we needed to get the kids to a child T ASAP

with something like:

"You couldn't be more right about this. I completely agree. I'll stand next to you as we tell the kids that this is what's happening. They can be angry at both of us but I think you're so right that we should present a united front on this issue."

To my ears, it's a "false problem" to wonder about "forcing the kids into the car" if it's resolved beforehand that you and their mom are 110% in agreement that T is happening no matter what. It is really, really powerful to kids when both bio parents are united on an issue. Sure, maybe they tantrum? But if Mom and you are together in putting them into the car, then the issue isn't really "forcing them to go". They can be equally angry at both of you.

I truly hope that makes sense. And I hope it doesn't come across as "we're all piling on you" or being critical. Again, I'm so glad you're here and we're talking. The group has been through so much that I think we want to save you the pain we've been through. So, if it comes across as you thinking "I'm at A, and I'm thinking B and then C would be good", and we're all like "Don't do B and C! You really should go right to P, Q, and R!" it's because we've tried B and C and, uh, lived through it.

With much warmth and continued welcoming;

kells76

[livednlearned]

Other options if you have a supremely defiant and extraordinarily sensitive kid (I have one ...he is level one autism spectrum disorder with pathologic demand avoidance sub-type) is to be more collaborative in how you help her solve this challenge she has.

Start with, "Tell me how you feel when we suggest therapy..." or "Help me understand how you feel about ________" and let her know you're listening. Then leave and give her some space.

When you pick it up again, you have lots of options on how to proceed.

You can suggest you go first and report back on what it was like.

Or suggest you and dd10 go together and report back.

Or ask if she would like to do art therapy if she's into creative stuff.

Or let her go meet the T for 15 minutes then tell her she can leave and sit in the car if she chooses.

Or tell her you'll go with her and be there in the room, and she can tell you to wait in the waiting area if she wants to talk to the T on her own.

Or tell her you've narrowed it down to 3 counselors and what does she think of a, b, c. Does she want to meet them all? Or does she want you to meet them and report back?

Or, if she's like my son in the slightest, she may prefer to hear you admit bluntly that you are trying to figure something out and need her help. "dd10 is young and extremely angry and hurt. She's lucky to have you as her sister, and I'm going to be honest. I need your help here. She looks up to you and if you go, she'll go. I could also use a sounding board after we go to see whether this T is a good fit. I want to hear from you what you think."

Demonstrate you are curious about her reluctance to go, gently imply or communicate that this is important for the family to do, and give her choices on how she participates.

Right now you are communicating here that you can't make dd12 go. Do you believe that friends here can help you brainstorm creative solutions? People on this board understand not wanting to be the bad guy so you have lots of support on that.

[worriedStepmom]

The focus, too, shouldn't be "therapy to fix your relationship with your mom".  It's "let's talk to someone neutral so you can have some support with all these big feelings."

[ForeverDad]

The focus, too, shouldn't be "therapy to fix your relationship with your mom".  It's "let's talk to someone neutral so you can have some support with all these big feelings."

Exactly!  And one scenario where a acting-out disordered parent would want therapy is when the parent believes they control a gullible or biased therapist.  If you are smart and have a list of experienced and reputable counselors, then you will see how she reacts once she realizes she can't push the counselor to go her way.

What you face my not be the typical controlling and possessive BPD mother.  She's let you do a lot of the parenting and that's why I wonder that she is more concerned about appearances and her adult the boyfriend relationship.

[Enabler]

W likes T to solve problems for her. She's had a lot of "success" in couples T and seeing the Child T specialist earlier in the year. Somehow we seemed to go with one problem to solve and end up looking at a completely different one.

W isn't so keen on her own T. She has been a couple of times, once for a year and then dropped it at a bit of a random time. My sense is that when there's no one else to deflect blame to and the only person to look at is herself, it all becomes a little too uncomfortable and the T is able to scratch past the veneer and see inconsistencies.

W has form in getting what she wants through therapists, and what she wants is the kids to see her affair as just one of those adult things and something that occurred secondary to problems in the relationship after the marriage was over. She would like the children to be told that they should forgive her, that she loves them and that it is right that they should all go and live with her in her parenting time. She would like the T to minimise the genuine reasons the kids have to be upset with her. I also believe that since W has limited ability to self reflect about her day to day behaviours, she doesn't perceive the children have any genuine concerns about her inconsistent parenting. In her eyes she is perfect and all drama is caused by situation or externalities.

Given this history I am apprehensive about what W will manage to turn this into. I am apprehensive about what a T will encourage the kids to believe, will the T place more emphasis on addressing the breakdown of mother/child relationships and encourage them to resume where they left off placing adult stuff in a box that's "none of their business", or will the T address wholesale systematic deceit and how the children can protect themselves from this and the general chaos my W creates in their lives. This has the potential to be a turning point in all of our lives where the children are provided with tools and awareness (they already have some) to make sense of a world they are likely to have to live with for many years to come. What I don't want is for the kids to just be encouraged to walk straight back into the lions den just to be hurt again. I don't want dd10 to be told that what she did was wrong and she shouldn't have gone looking on W's phone to truth seek. I don't want the kids to spend the next 20 years with a persistent vibration beneath their feet they don't understand. I think a relationship with their mother is important... BUT, one where they are able to have boundaries which say "Mum, stop blaming me for being late, that's your fault, own it", or "Mum, that simply doesn't line up with the evidence."

I know the T we have in mind is very very experienced and good and i'm pretty sure she wont be swayed by either of us. These are the concerns I have, I believe T is the best course of action regardless of these concerns and have some great takeaways how we/I get that to happen.

New-Life

[Fian]

You mentioned that you are doing 100% parenting of dd10.  Does that mean that both dd10 and dd12 are spending 100% of their time at your house?

[livednlearned]

I am apprehensive about what W will manage to turn this into. I am apprehensive about what a T will encourage the kids to believe, will the T place more emphasis on addressing the breakdown of mother/child relationships and encourage them to resume where they left off placing adult stuff in a box that's "none of their business", or will the T address wholesale systematic deceit and how the children can protect themselves from this and the general chaos my W creates in their lives.

Maybe neither will happen.

A therapist will be focused on building a therapeutic relationship first and foremost, something that doesn't have the kind of baggage that our kids have with us.

With dd12, who claims to not want to see a T, the therapist may spend time just trying to establish trust.

It's also possible your kids may initially be more focused on things happening with their peers. These are usually relationship issues that mimic challenges they've experienced or witnessed in their relationships with us. It can feel safer than talking about mom and dad.

[Enabler]

That would certainly be my hope (focus on building trust rather than pushing for prompt resolution).

[Enabler]

dd10 is meeting with W today.

dd10 shared the chats they have been having over the past few days on Skype message. W seems to be being honest but her line is that "the marriage was toast before the boyfriend came on the scene, we've been separated for 4 years, it's okay if I move on. Soz for lying" (very paraphrased). She believes that I have been telling the kids that the reason why 'we' are getting divorced is because of the relationship with the boyfriend. I have not said this at all. I have laid some facts on the table, and dd10 has drawn on her own understanding and experiences which may well have led her to come to her own conclusions, as many have and would. Such as... then why lie if it was all okay?

We get to find out what dd10 feels about the answers she's received!

New-Life

[Skip]

Are you familiar with the term emotional parentification? The word describes what happens when the roles of parent and child are reversed.

When parents look to their children for emotional and/or practical support, rather than providing it, the child becomes a caregiver. As a result, parentified children are forced to assume adult responsibilities and behaviors before they are ready to do so.

This role reversal disrupts the natural process of maturing. In many cases, it has far-reaching negative effects on the child’s mental and physical health.

“When parentification assumes pathological proportions, parents are often unwittingly replaying painful and abusive scripts from their own childhood and setting the stage for succeeding generations to do the same. In the process, their children’s intrinsic loyalty, concern, and trust are exploited. ~ Gregory J. Jurkovic, author of Lost Childhoods: The Plight of the Parentified Child

Emotional parentification involves a child:

    Providing emotional comfort and support to a parent
    Mediating between a parents in a divorce
    Offering advice to a parent
    Serving as a confidante for their parent
    Listening to a parent talk about their problems.

[Enabler]

I have heard of parentification  and knew that it could apply to emotional prop as well as fulfilling things like domestic tasks, looking after siblings etc etc. Are you saying that I risk parentifying dd10 or W?

So, dd10 comes back to pick up a few things before going to W's house for dinner. When W took dd10 out to a cafe she said that I had lied and it wasn't a long relationship and that actually the boyfriend had been supportive of her over the years and although she had always had feelings for him they only got together recently. dd10 described how she clenched the table knowing this to be a lie. Either way it would seem that she would rather a relationship with her mum knowing she lies, than none at all. I said I was pleased that she had resolved things with Mum as I knew how much she missed her. She seemed very happy.

I worry she is going to get hurt again. W just can't help herself. Worst still I worry that dd10 is going to try and solve Mum's deceit problem.

[Skip]

Are you saying that I risk parentifying dd10 or W?

I am suggesting that you and your wife's dynamic is very much at risk of parentifying the children.

Think of co-piloting. If the two people in the cockpit are vying for different ways to navigate the plane and trying to correct the other to do it their way, and going on the loudspeaker and trying to convince the passengers they are the better pilot and the other pilot is a liar - imagine the terror is the passenger cabin.

You are you wife are a few weeks into this and the normal grieving and struggle the children go through when the family breaks up has already morphed into a referendum on the character and integrity of each parent with both parents making their case to the children and waiting for the children's decisions.

Kids like stability. Kids need stability. The only way they are going to get that is if you and your wife prioritize their stability over a continuing the battle of personal resentments.

It's a big "ask". Consciously or subconsciously, you two are individually choosing "battle of personal resentments" over "stability for kids".

It might be helpful to think how to better handle these things going forward.

[Enabler]

Skip I agree with you.

How stable is a foundation based on deceit though? Does this actually provide a stable future or one where the kids know their mum is a liar and are waiting for the next show to drop? I have not pushed dd10 to truth seek, she did that all by herself. She now wrestles with how to have a relationship with someone whom she knows lies. By the sounds of things she has made peace with that decision and would rather have any relationship than none at all.

I can’t force my W to be honest and I certainly can’t dictate what she tells the kids. Should I tell the kids her story is true if I know it not to be?

New-Lofe

[Fian]

I think it is harder than you are making it.  If he tries to speak with "one voice" with his wife to the kids, he ends up validating his wife's lies, and loses the trust of his children.  It appears that he has already damaged his credibility with his kids by trying to present the divorce in a unified manner with his wife.

What practical steps can New Life take to not parentify the children while maintaining his integrity?

[Skip]

Play it out...

Your your wife's view of the situation is that you were verbally and emotionally abusive for years, insensitive, and she lost her self and her lust for life. She met a man who was more sensitive and understanding and he helped her define herself and asked nothing of her. He to, had a difficult relationship and was also finding his way. Their relationship slowly evolved over time from a friendship to a relationship. By the time they become intimate, the home situation was effectively dead and the two of you were separated and living under one roof because she didn't know how to leave and you were undermining her confidence to move-out on her own. She was finally encouraged strongly by a therapist that you chose, to make it a physical separation, that co-habitating was not good for any of the family members - especially the kids. She asked you to leave or she would do it. You said no. She moved out. Friends, clergy, her lawyer, and the kids school were with her on this journey. The whole thing was sloppy, but adult life is. This is how she sees it and lot of this is about how she felt inside - its believable.

She could be honest and sit down and lay this out to the kids and asked them if the remember daddy being mean to her.

You could then counter this by explaining the reasons that you were mean and tell them their mother is mentally ill and committed the worst of family sins, she had sex with another man while she was married to you. This is how you sees it and lot about what she did  - its believable.

This is, bot of these. or some version of each is the truth, right?

The biggest thing in her mind was feeling domestically oppressed and bullied by you. The biggest thing in your mind feeling of betrayal and humiliation.

Do you want to "read in" 8, 10, 12 year girls into this complex adult truth?

Should I tell the kids her story is true if I know it not to be?

If it had been me, I would have stayed neutral. Be polite to wife and said, we'll get through and be patient with the girls (e.g., lets not force anything - protect kids), say "I'll stay out of it" (e.g., I won't undermine you - you can control the conversation). Your face to the girls could simply be "your mom and I both love you". It might have been helpful to do a brief family event (the 5 of you) like having a normal dinner and a favorite restaurant to make the break-up seem less daunting - nothing heavy - talk about kids stuff (e.g., they would love this).

Make sense?

They don't want to see or be in this fight.

[ForeverDad]

Your your wife's view of the situation is...

There is your view, there is your spouse's view.
There is your perception, there is your spouse's perception.

I would expect your perception to be fairly close to reality, in other words, reasonably normal.  The same can't be said for your spouse, she sees reality from her subjective perspective, what puts her in the most positive light.  As one book's title states, "It's All Your Fault!"  (Hey, none of us want to admit to mistakes, but when the blaming gets one-sided, that's when it is clearly unhealthy and can qualify for disordered status.)

Kids naturally don't want to be placed squarely in the middle, as arbiters of the marital disputes.  All this posturing can create negative impacts upon the kids.  There's probably little you can do to keep your spouse in line during the divorce and after.  Acknowledging that, focus on what you can do.  Probably you will have to be the lone balanced and solid support for your children, sharing insights and skills (much of which can be found here on our Library: Skills and workshops board) to strengthen them as both growing teens and soon-to-be adults.

[Enabler]

When we told the kids a few months back it was pretty neutral. Choices were owned but not mention of the other man was made. Since that time we have done family things together notably for dd12’s birthday and some civil times around the house. Prior to her departure  I made it clear what my expectation was around contextualising the boyfriend specifically because I predicted dishonesty would end badly. I allowed W to take the lead with regards to how that was managed and was content to leave myself neutral and allow her to take any fallout from the disconnect between what kids knew and were aware of and the ‘story’ W fed them. Clearly this didn’t happen and the kids sought my version of the truth because they trusted my integrity. They could not trust their mother because they knew for a fact after discovering their own evidence that she had been deceitful. Was the option to remain neutral still there? I don’t think it was since staying neutral and providing no information, or deferring to W to provide information is a story neither were willing to listen to anymore.

Skip, you are probably right about my W’s narrative, I’m sure this is common. If I had to put my finger on why she didn’t move out earlier it was because firstly she got to have her cake and eat it, because I enabled it, secondly she saw a change in me (having learnt about BPD), I no longer invalidated her, I was more skilled in dealing with the kids, this all meant she didn’t feel she had the rite to blow up a family and worse still, blow up a family in pursuit of another man. Whatever the advice of the afore mentioned players she still craved a guiltless transition which she’d wanted for 4+ yrs. Tp do this she needed to construct a narrative that slipped the boyfriend in without so much as a squeak of long term affair... only this wasn’t possible because the kids knew too much, things she didn’t know they knew.

In many respects I feel that I have been shielding her from the natural consequences of her choices for 4 years. Is it not time to stop enabling her and instead support values I believe are important for my new family bubble whilst she manages her own values and how they are demonstrated in her own home?

Incidentally dd10 came here this evening for regular mid-week sleepover. She walked here having got angry with W after overhearing W whispering to dd7 saying “Daddy is lying to dd10 and dd12, he says that I moved out to be with the boyfriend, that I’m lying and that they (dd10 & dd12) think the reason why we’re getting a divorce Is because of the boyfriend”... dd10 apparently went in and told W that I hadn’t told them any of that and that wasn’t what she thought! She was furious when I met her half way.

New-Life

[livednlearned]

You know it's very troubling that your 10 year old child is talking to you about her mother's affair, right?

She's confiding in you.

About her mother's affair.

And she's 10.

[worriedStepmom]

Is it not time to stop enabling her and instead support values I believe are important for my new family bubble whilst she manages her own values and how they are demonstrated in her own home?

I felt the same was as you when I was getting divorced.  I realized later (after much healing) - that I was wrong to stress those values so much during the divorce process, because it can alienate the kids.  Over the years, I've been able to show the children my values (my ex is on his 3rd wife and lived with the last one before they got married.  My H and I have been married 8 years.).  The children recognize more what they are shown than what they are told.

SD was 5 when I married H, and her uBPDmom told her all kinds of stuff.  I had to learn to validate her emotions and not try to defend or justify.  This is not easy or intuitive stuff.  I would turn every statement or question around - "what do you think?"  "how do you feel about that?" I centered it all on HER and what was important to her, not what was important to me or to H or to uBPDex.  I also did a lot of reassurance that it's okay for uBPDex to believe one thing and me to believe something else.  If it was something very specific (like the custody schedule) that mom lied about, we'd say "I think maybe mom is confused about that.") And some things we'd just say "That's grown-up stuff and it isn't something you are supposed to worry about.  Let the grownups handle it."

When SD was about 11, she started remarking on her mom's perceptions.  We finally sat her down and had a talk about how brains work differently.  Some people's brains work more like mine, so when I say something they understand what I mean.  Some people's brains work differently, and it's like we're speaking 2 different languages so the two people may have very different perceptions or understandings of the same events.  (uBPDex has been diagnosed with anxiety, so we blame a lot of this on anxiety.)  SD has figured out that her mom's reality can't be trusted, and we're trying to reassure her that it isn't necessarily on purpose.  If your W hasn't been diagnosed with something, then it may be more difficult to make that argument now.

You need to be talking to a therapist to help you help the kids through this, and, if possible, get the kids into counseling.  This is not easy stuff.

[Turkish]

Incidentally dd10 came here this evening for regular mid-week sleepover. She walked here having got angry with W after overhearing W whispering to dd7 saying “Daddy is lying to dd10 and dd12, he says that I moved out to be with the boyfriend, that I’m lying and that they (dd10 & dd12) think the reason why we’re getting a divorce Is because of the boyfriend”... dd10 apparently went in and told W that I hadn’t told them any of that and that wasn’t what she thought! She was furious when I met her half way.

Do you mean she was furious with you?

Your daughter shouldn't be put into that position, and it's on you to stop it as much as you are able even though you can't control what your wife says or how she interacts with the kids.  

I had it easier when my kids' mom left when D was 1 and S had just turned 4. Even so, she called me out of the blue one afternoon on my evening commute. She was having trouble with S4 being defiant. She of course introduced the kids to the "new man" within a month or so of leaving, as a step-daddy figure, not allowing them to adjust to the shock of two households.

A few years later, then S6 or 7 told me, apropos of nothing, "Mommy cheated on you." I was surprised, but remained neutral in reaction.

"What makes you say that?"

"We watched a video in [the after school program] about it. Mommy kissed [by now step-dad] when she was married to you so she cheated."

Interesting was his chain of logic, as we'd never talked about it though I'm sure it was confusing to see us both at family functions and it truthfully killed me to drop the kids off for him to watch them sometimes though we were cordial.

I thought about it for a few beats and replied, "yeah, something like that, but even if we don't understand it, people as individual entities are free to make their own choices, even if we also as individuals may disagree."

And that was that. He never brought it up again.

I wasn't going to lie to him, though their mom did implicitly, yet I also wasn't going to allow the discussion to continue. Adult relationships were none of his business, as my T said, no fan at all of my ex.

I was adopted by a single mother with PTSD, Anxiety, Depression, and BPD. I was Parentified plenty. I'll risk being a bit distant rather than talking to the kids like my mother did me. Kids need to be kids.  

It's very unfair that your daughter (and any of your kids) are cast in these roles, but only you have the power to mitigate this.

It will be tough with her mom over sharing (to put it lightly) but she can be both validated and protected.

[Enabler]

Turkish,

dd10 was furious with my W for saying things about what dd10 'believes' to dd7. She was furious that W was making things up about what she thought and 'what daddy had told dd10 and dd12' which weren't true. dd7 is the last bastion of hope foro preserving the false narrative for W. She seems to be ploughing all her energy into getting her on side.

I recorded what dd10 said when she got back and ranted.

Yesterday emails are flying around accusing me of things she is doing. It makes sense of course. I've opted to deal with dd7 in a different way, light and breezy, nothings a problem, she doesn't need pulling in my direction and I don't want to play games with her she is/will see my consistency.

Livednlearned, dd10 was hysterical, she'd have told the milkman

[Skip]

Revenge is sweet.

For quite some time you have wanted the the stbx-wife to confess her affair to your 8, 10, and 11 year old girls... Stbx-wife is forever shamed in the eyes of her girls - and this would crush any mother - but a dxBPD mother will be broken by it. It is as damaging to her as the affair was to you - maybe more so. And she won't be able to escape the shame - this will resurface for years in disputes with the kids. Her boyfriend is also whacked - he will be a target of blame and this will play hard on their relationship and make it extremely difficult, if not impossible, for him to develop a relationship with the girls. They did it (affair) and these were always the possible consequences.

I allowed W to take the lead with regards to how that was managed and was content to leave myself neutral and allow her to take any fallout from the disconnect between what kids knew and were aware of and the ‘story’ W fed them. Clearly this didn’t happen and the kids sought my version of the truth because they trusted my integrity. They could not trust their mother because they knew for a fact after discovering their own evidence that she had been deceitful. Was the option to remain neutral still there? I don’t think it was since staying neutral and providing no information, or deferring to W to provide information is a story neither were willing to listen to anymore.

Respectfully, I can't agree with your rhetorical question. You had choice. You had choice to mitigate or intensify - protect the children or revenge the wife's affair. In fairness, you got plenty of advice on how to mitigate without lying and you got it early enough to be able to do so.  You also got advice on how to reverse course once the train was headed down the track. You chose to intensify. You have to own that.

Your choice to intensify, no matter how justified (and it was justified), will have ramifications for years - now that the kids are fully immersed and participating in the adult fight and there is an adult competition for their approval (and disapproval of  the other parent).

Research has shown that kids recover from a reasonably amicable divorce in 12-24 months and live life (academic achievement, emotional and behavior problems, delinquency, self-concept and social relationships) similar to kids from intact households. Researchers have also consistently found that high levels of parental conflict during and after a divorce are associated with poorer adjustment in children.

Technically its not too late from the children's perspective to resolve this, but now that the adult fight is fully amped up, and the prior attempts by the boyfriend to work amicably nailed shut, the battle lines are drawn.

A person with BPD feels wounds much deeper than a person without and they tend to have either a disproportionate and exaggerated response or they walk away. A person with NPD tendencies often reacts intensively to an ego (narcissistic) wound. They can plot and retaliate for a lifetime.

[Enabler]

You have a dim opinion of me Skip, almost contemptuous. What am I supposed to do with that post?

[once removed]

Was the option to remain neutral still there?

honesty can be used as a weapon, New-life. shakespeares character iago in othello is a famous example and a great study.

i, too, think there was an opportunity to remain neutral for the benefit of the children and in a way to maintain your integrity. please don't take that as contempt. its an honest answer to your question.

[Fian]

One thing that I would like to point out is that the fact that your wife is within walking distance of your house is resulting in some disturbing behavior of your children.  Right now it is working towards the detriment of your wife, but it could easily reverse in the future if you try to ground your children, and they then punish you by walking over to your wife's house.  There may be some security risks too, especially if D7 tries it.

[mart555]

Remember, your girls are a risk for developing BPD traits. It runs in families ad if mom has BPD, there is a 50% chance of each child developing traits. A mismanaged co-parenting gambit could be the emotional burn that flips them into lifelong turmoil.

Where is this stat from?  I have two kids and one of them has definitely traits.  I'm trying to help and he's made tremendous progress in the last year (he hasn't seen his mom) but I'm afraid he will regress because visits will resume soon...  and I can't get much help anywhere because it's all "oh, we can't diagnose BPD, this behavior is likely just due to anxiety".  Yes, I know he has anxiety and we're working on that. But there's more. I can see his mom behavior in him and she was severe BPD!

[Enabler]

Sorry all, busy week and lots and lots of homework.

Saw co-parenting specialist on Wed. W was pretty slow and cautious when describing what had happened initially and I think she'd forgotten that she'd told the T in Jan that she was in a relationship with OM and had been for some time. Meeting was productive and T was supportive that I was doing what was required to encourage the children to see their mother. We discussed the kids coming to see her and the practicalities around encouraging that to happen. She stressed that she wants to see them when they want to see her and encouragement rather than "forcing" them was the most appropriate method. She asserted that it was still relatively early days and the two traumas had come pretty close together and were still pretty raw.

She encouraged W to continue reaching out softly.

D10 is keen(ish) to see the T, D12 (who probably stands to benefit the most) was a flat "no". T was pretty open to whether the kids came together or separately.

Fian, I hear you on the risk, I didn't let D10 leave the house to deliver her anger note a few weeks back. However, I can't control what happens when D10 or D7 try to leave W's house.

New-Life

[ForeverDad]

Does she care about the kids, yes she does and she was a good attentive mother when they were young. BUT, as time has gone on she has become less and less attentive and more and more self-focused making choices prioritising spending time with the boyfriend rather than spending time with the kids.

I'm not sure whether this comment has been addressed.  I'll expound on it here.

Many BPD/disordered parents, generally mothers, are so attached to their children that they view them as virtual appendages. Other BPD/disordered parents are less attached to their children.  There is quite a range of behaviors and that can change over time as well.

Your spouse seems to have been attentive to the children while they were young.  An "attentive mother" as it were.  That is typical with younger children.  But as they get older, children naturally crave some more independence, they're starting to think for themselves.  Your spouse may not be able to accept that growing need for a measure of increasing independence and independent thought, observations and perspectives.

I think I mentioned your spouse seems to also be focused on her adult relationship.  She's straddled between her current adult love interest and keeping the kids as her 'advocates'.  She seems to need then "on her side".  Not surprisingly, the older children have their own thoughts about the matter.  That is to be expected.  In time they may have to accept their mother will do as she pleases... but they don't have to like it nor do they have to (no should they) reject or blame you for their mother's choices.