The wisdom of 2010

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hi all,

For anyone new on this forum, I highly recommend going into the archives to read the posts of a member named "2010". This person has helped me greatly to understand BPD, and reading was quite carthatic. It's a heavy read, but you won't be left without a good understanding on what is at the core of the disorder and why you couldn't have necessarily changed anything.

The link to all this member's posts is below:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?action=profile;u=38193;sa=showPosts;start=0

[grumpydonut]

Hi all,

For anyone new on this forum, I highly recommend going into the archives to read the posts of a member named "2010". This person has helped me greatly to understand BPD, and reading was quite carthatic. It's a heavy read, but you won't be left without a good understanding on what is at the core of the disorder and why you couldn't have necessarily changed anything.

The link to all this member's posts is below:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?action=profile;u=38193;sa=showPosts;start=0

[forevermagenta]

Thanks for this. This person has a lot of cutting insight and a skill at turning the question around (in a useful way).

I was struck by one of their discussions around setting the firm boundary of ending the relationship (through shunning/no contact/fleeing) and yet as the boundary-setter continually checking on them through social media (did they block/unblock me etc.). Instead of questioning why the pwBPD is doing this, 2010 asks: why do you feel the need to continually watch, check and wait?

This hit home as I do this.

While I am -so far- good at maintaining no contact, I find myself compulsively checking my spam to see if he has sent any (blocked) emails (surprise, surprise- he has). I tell myself it is for my safety - that I want to track his moods post-NC as I worry about threats. BUT, it has me on edge. Where is the line between being aware of personal safety and continuing to let this person preoccupy me? Is there value to it or am I just feeding my anxiety?

Notably, he has not been physically abusive, but I would not put it past him to end up on my doorstep and/or stalk me in a “light way” (drive bys and hanging out near my house etc).

At this point, I have told myself I would look in my spam folder once every thirty days to archive his messages (I feel it’s important for a potentially legal perspective to keep a record), BUT, in reality, I check my spam multiple times a day. And I always feel a bit guilty when I do, like I’m feeding a fix that I know isn’t good for me. And, if there was a threat, I wouldn’t want to miss it.

Curious if anyone has found a balance here with this one?

[forevermagenta]

I’m also realizing, courtesy of some of 2010’s insight, that this propensity to maintaining fear through compulsive checking could be a way to maintain his presence  in my life and the drama and instability.

I realize I’m early days in this detaching process and I’m going through likely a typical pattern (including perhaps justified fear of consequences), but this thought I found freeing!  I might be the creator of this sense of continued presence (dark and foreboding, but also provides me
with “attention” and a sense of being continually “needed”) and therefore can also choose to let it go.

What is this fear providing me? Why do I need it?

[cash05458]

Grumpy, thank you for putting these notes up from 2010...as a newbie, had never seen...very heavy yes...but a good heavy and intense and real...thank you for showing us these...there is much to think over here...and yeah, it is wisdom for sure...wisdom can be painful...usually is actually I feel...

[Mutt]

Where is the line between being aware of personal safety and continuing to let this person preoccupy me? Is there value to it or am I just feeding my anxiety?

I think that for some members they are looking for meaning - if my pwBPD contacts me they are thinking about me and must feel something for me. It could be viewed as a way of feeling validated by a pwBPD because they may not communicate their true feelings very well and when communication is controlled or they have slowly faded we're looking into something more so than under different circumstances.

@grumpydonut Thanks for sharing that find. 2010 has a strong understanding of BPD. His posts helped me a lot during my healing.

[AnuDay]

Hi all,

For anyone new on this forum, I highly recommend going into the archives to read the posts of a member named "2010". This person has helped me greatly to understand BPD, and reading was quite carthatic. It's a heavy read, but you won't be left without a good understanding on what is at the core of the disorder and why you couldn't have necessarily changed anything.

The link to all this member's posts is below:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?action=profile;u=38193;sa=showPosts;start=0

AWESOME!

THANK YOU.

[cash05458]

Forevermagenta...I too find myself doing that...gmail wont really delete and it goes into trash...and I find myself looking there several times a day as well...and also feel guilty...but like you, I am early in this process so am trying not to beat myself up if I am not "acting perfectly".

Yes, I think you are right...it is a drive of ours to feel needed by them...now, normally, wanting to be needed is common thing, even a harmless  thing ...but in our cases, well it prolly carries danger...I know if she mirrored me again and loved me it would be very dangerous for myself now...I would like to think I would do that right thing and refuse...but that that question makes me nervous probably says enough...   

[forevermagenta]

Yes,I continue to be blown away by 2010. His posts give me a lot of hope that there is huge potential for personal growth and self realization after this interaction (the relationship).

His discussion of mirroring is a LOT for me to chew on.

“There is no devaluation and discard from the Borderline. There is only a detachment and protection from the failure to become the perfect mirroring agent to a person who NEEDS perfect mirroring.” (From his last post, but this theme is throughout)

Somehow this phrase keeps resurfacing for me:

I have danced with the void and the void is me.

As in, I interacted with a mirror of myself and then found the mirror empty - the person doing the mirroring and the person being mirrored.

Would love to dive further into this mirroring aspect. BPD, from some of 2010 posts, seems like quite a head trip - because it turns the questioning back on ourselves.  And when I feel like I have glimpses of understanding, it becomes mysterious again.

And, yes, Cash - I was blown away to learn I would continue to receive emails (in Trash) and there isn’t a whole lot to do about it other than change my orientation to them or understand my compulsion more. I found “admitting” what I was doing here - helpful and realizing it is largely my need/want to keep some continued presence in my life, but my question re: safety remains. So true re: need to be needed.

[cash05458]

forevermagneta,

Yes, I too am finding that mirror stuff very interesting...and there is a gaping whole in me via not being needed by her...that is entirely my thing and responsibility...I spent 6 years believing her words about me and about us... it feels good to be told "you are the most wonderful man I have ever been with in my life, our relationship means everything to me..."...sure, why not...but my god, the barbs that comes with that when you realize that was never really true to begin with...and that the wholeness I felt wasn't real to begin with...that it was just an illusion, a mirror trick...and then she broke the mirror...actually, she began mirroring a new man while still here with me...in our own home...this last month I feel like a junkie being ripped away from hid drug of choice...neither is the emotional rehab any fun that is for sure...and right now, I just have this blind faith that there will be some point to this to get thru to other side...

[forevermagenta]

“when you realize that was never really true to begin with...and that the wholeness I felt wasn't real to begin with...that it was just an illusion, a mirror trick.” 

When you realize that she wasn’t able to live up to YOUR need for mirroring. (Maybe that is what you are saying.)

If she (pwBPD) is looking to you (or willing participant) to act as surrogate parent and mirror you, what does that make you and I? 

Why do you (and I) need mirroring to this degree?

Why are we so devasted when they self protect and no longer mirror us anymore? 

Why do we look for external validation (through being needed)?

Could a realzation be, in all this,  if we choose to face it, to be released from this need?

[cash05458]

I hope the end game is to be released from that mirror play yes...and my need for that...

you said Magenta..."When you realize that she wasn’t able to live up to YOUR need for mirroring. (Maybe that is what you are saying.) "

Not sure if she couldn't live up to that...she couldn't obviously but...she did for a long time..practically til the end...Rather, I think reality  reared its ugly head...and once reality was there she fled...she needed to continue to mirror...and it wasn't working with us any longer via that structure...I called her on a few things and that got to her...so she found a new subject to mirror...had him sitting on the bench as I have heard folks write here...and literally within seconds it seems, dove into that new mirroring game...as if men are interchangable for whatever need SHE has as well...I was a vessel and once used up, to be destroyed and onto a new more terrific, fresh vessel to be put in its place...more and more mirroring... 

I think, in love, healthy love...we still need the validation of the other... yes, we need to validate ourselves certainly...but love is a back and forth of course...

But this isn't love...or it is "love" filtered thru a very serious disorder...that brings out our worst sides as well...we become more needy...b/c there is really "nothing " there in the first place...it's all an illusion...and probably as time goes on, and six years was a very long time to me...my longest relationship in life...it becomes like the junkie who needs stronger and stronger heroin to actually feel the high...

[forevermagenta]

I admit I haven’t followed your whole story, so I’m not up on the details, BUT what does stand out for me in what you say is:

Why was *I* so empty that I needed him to be all my projections?  Why did I continue to look where there was nothing?  Was I just seeing my own emptiness? The emptiness of perceiving need. Who am I anyway? Now, that’s uncomfortable. And where the dynamics of deep interaction with pwBPD gets tricky, because isn’t it supposed to be THEM with the identity issues? 

I suppose that’s the head trip I’m on and it gets fuzzy, like I can’t quite comprehend where I’m going, but it feels like something is there.

And yes- re: validation. There is healthy validation and then the perfectly tailored crack version.

Since there is emotional immaturity, love seems to be at a different level.  It was black or white.  I am around young children a lot - and I’m sure the comparison is loathed to some degree- but throughout my relational interactions w pwBPD I couldn’t help but see similarities. And that’s also why I felt semi-skilled /up for the challenge because I help regulate children every day.

[cash05458]

Yes, but children are children...stunted adults are something else of course..

the child analogy fits for me as well...without going into it heavy ,my story is living together for 6 years...she tells me she has been talking to a guy in england for 4 days, moves out and is now fully in love with him and planning to move to england...I tell this story because of this: numerous times on phone, even while pretending that maybe she wanted something to work with us...she would suddely state "but I am going to england and you will never stop me..." and it entirely reminded me and felt like she was speaking to me as her father...like a rebellious teen daughter..."you will never be able to stop me daddy from seeing him" etc...she is 60...and like a teenager, I only found out how serious she was when she posted on facebook she was "in a new relationship and moving to england to be with the love of her life"...they have been talking for 32 days now...

It has been like there is a serious regression on this person to a teen state, or even younger...this kind of impulsivity reminds me a a child...an angry , bad child actually...hell bent determined to get whatever it thinks it wants...

[grumpydonut]

Bit nitpicky, but I'm almost certain 2010 was a woman - despite what the profile says on the left hand side!

[grumpydonut]

she would suddely state "but I am going to england and you will never stop me..." and it entirely reminded me and felt like she was speaking to me as her father...like a rebellious teen daughter..."you will never be able to stop me daddy from seeing him"

Cash,

This statement tells us so much. You are 100% re. the rebellious daughter comment.

BPDs are unconsciously trying to escape from a punitive parent AND looking for a way to relive their childhood emotional attachments. In this case, the attachment is to the feeling of being dominated / controlled. Other times it's simply projection.

Ever had a conversation with her where she is accusing you of something that you clearly aren't doing? Most times, it's because her subconscious is looking to recreate childhood drama!

EG from my relationship - "We don't do enough together. You don't want to spend all your time with me" (aka, you're abandoning me) followed quickly by "What, so I can't spend time with my own friends?" (aka, you're trying to oppress me). I never told her I didn't want to spend time with her, nor that I didn't want her to spend time with friends. But that matters not, their mind will always seek to find what they already believe, which is why the cliche of "you really couldn't have done anything to change the outcome" is 100% true.

The disorder will always find a way to prove to the BPD what they subconciously believe - no. body. loves. me. I'm. bad. and. everybody. leaves. eventually.

[cash05458]

Grumpy, thank you...

Yes, even the tone of her voice changed I noticed...and it wasn't like I had even mentioned going to england or brought it up...it just came out of her...and then "you will never stop me" etc...I merely said, I am not trying to stop you...you have to do what you want...but you have to also realize your actions will have serious repercussions via our relationship"...to which she responded the same thing as above...more forcefully... it was almost as if she were having a conversation with some other...

And this fits. the very start of this whole recent depression began about 3 months ago...her older cousin died suddenly...just dropped dead of a heart attack...had been seemingly healthy...but this was not just any cousin...the was a man who knew her father when he was young and was like a brother to him, adored her father (who died when she was 5 and then Mom ran off and disappeared to be a junkie and she was put in an orphanage)...so this cousin had in real life become like a father surrogate...he was her last and only remaining tie to her long dead father... she changed right at that moment...even the look in her eyes...adn this cousin did in fact act like a father to her, helping her very greatly at various times in her life, even as an adult...they were very very close...

And then three weeks later, the work conflict occurred...which I have described...charging her school publicly on facebook about covid things...it was terrible...writing privately to parents, getting fired and then a no trespassing notice arrived via the police from her former school...and that fits as well, she always described her work mates as "family" and behaved that way...and she treated the Directors especially like parent figures...even tho they were younger than she...and that become a huge betrayal to her...one going far beyond losing a job...

And then of course, three weeks after that and her leaving me for this other and completely destroying everything and me in her wake...even abandoning her own cats here as well (a small thing...but again, she described them as "family")...

It is all starting to make much more sense to me now...the Cousin's sudden death was the trigger...and not only is this a reaction to father issues...I also think there is something going on via her Mother, who ran off and abandoned her...much as she is now abandoning everything from her past life here...

[once removed]

i arrived here nearly ten years ago now, and i read a great deal of 2010s posts when i came here.

the one thing i noticed and gravitated toward in her posts, and i see it in this thread, is that her posts bordered on being (or were flat out) confrontational in terms of putting the spotlight on us. that can be rough for those of us in the throes of raw pain and grief. and yet, people in all different stages, tended to be receptive. so there was something, even if emotionally challenging, that connected, about her message.

but one thing i would stress - and im confident 2010 would agree with - is that in her time here, she never stopped learning, and she applied what she learned. her earliest posts, for example, do not sound the same, are not the same kind of advice, and are not based on the same sources, as her latter posts. she took a lot from different sources (james masterson in particular, good stuff), dropped some, and evolved in her learning. a lot of us old timers would tell you that we had to unlearn a lot of what we learned in our earliest days.

she also did the hard work of owning her issues, and the lessons she learned from her relationship that she wanted to take into new relationships. once we break up, and more over, once we have worked through the stages of grief, what else is left?

like I’m feeding a fix that I know isn’t good for me. And, if there was a threat, I wouldn’t want to miss it.

Curious if anyone has found a balance here with this one?

what i always took from 2010 is that its less about the methods (no contact, limited contact, controlled contact) and more about actively letting go, and detaching from the wounds of a failed relationship; any method you pick, any path you take, can keep you stuck (are we still in "no contact" three, four, five years after a breakup? can someone who shares a child detach?), and reinforce being stuck. detaching is not about the path of least resistance, but, quite often, the hardest, most painful questions, and those that teach us to make better choices for our mental health.

my two cents  

[grumpydonut]

Loved that post, Once Removed.

[B53]

Forevermagenta,

I too work with young children. I have taught fours for almost 30 years. I think I unknowing used that knowledge in dealing with my ex. Once I was aware that he had BPD, I really started to see his behavior as that of young child. His episodes where childish temper tantrums. I started watching how he stomped around to get noticed. It was funny and so sad at the same time. BPD love is about attachment. Young children love you at the moment until they don't get their way and then you are painted black. Children have no concept of adult love and neither does a BP.

B53