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Author Topic: She wants to change the mediators  (Read 2861 times)
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« on: November 03, 2020, 07:51:20 AM »

So... nothing has been resolved but now she's decided that the professional legal mediator needs to be changed as he's not competent. She's scapegoating him for the slow progress of the divorce rather than accepting responsibility for the stop/start nature on the 3yr debacle.

I've asked for comprehensive justification and all I have received back is   

Excerpt
As I have stated, I have received negative feedback regarding ######’s mediation skills from professional legal advisors and do not agree to continue sessions with him.

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« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2020, 10:29:49 AM »

Does that mean you start over? Or can the current mediator provide documentation on what has been agreed upon so far?

What if you agreed that the legal mediator approach isn't working and move to obtaining lawyers?
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« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2020, 01:24:49 PM »

I am curious what the board thinks the next step should be when one party wants to reject the mediator.  Agree to a new mediator?  Switch to a law based approach where lawyers run the show?
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« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2020, 01:42:06 PM »

My immediate response - admittedly not necessarily the best - is that you don't want a 3 year ordeal replaced by another 3 year ordeal that may be even worse than the current attempt if she finds a more compliant or gullible mediator.  At the least, letting her have another bite of the apple with another mediator could delay it even more.

It was predictable that she would blame the mediator as bad.  Only a bad mediator would have been perceived as good because she would have been getting things her way.

As Skip noted:
At the moment the rhetorical conversation seems to be around a mortgage we have expiring at the end of Nov... like proper expiring expiring not just off the 'deal' period. If we don't come up with a solution it goes into a default situation. The Bank's expiry team refuse to give us an extension unless one of two things are met... a court date OR the house is on the market.

Perhaps you need to give her a choice as I gave mine.  (Maybe not as bluntly as I did but just as firmly.)  On trial morning, two years into our divorce, she was finally ready to settle.  I had a short list of terms, actually just one, I would become the parent responsible for schooling in a settlement or else we would start the trial.  (I later found out her lawyer had advised her she would lose in a trial.)
« Last Edit: November 03, 2020, 01:48:44 PM by ForeverDad » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2020, 03:56:00 PM »

ForeverDad, I think you are correct in that changing mediators will only prolong the (painful) process.

The STBX is not getting the answers and positional support she wants. She is probably not ready to accept that her wants are not reasonable, so she wants to change mediators, which can turn into mediator-shopping.

NewLife, how long do you think the situation should continue with your STBX holding to an unreasonable position that you know you won't agree to? Are you willing to wait for her epiphany?
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« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2020, 09:16:56 PM »

NewLife, how long do you think the situation should continue with your STBX holding to an unreasonable position that you know you won't agree to? Are you willing to wait for her epiphany?

Is the epiphany for an unreasonable position something that can happen with a BPD?
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« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2020, 09:25:40 PM »

Is the epiphany for an unreasonable position something that can happen with a BPD?

I don't know. ForeverDad's ex had her epiphany almost on the courthouse steps (actually in the building), as did my former co-worker.

My H had to tell his STBX that he was setting a court date for her to have a conversation with her lawyer in which she actually listened. The settlement after that took a week.
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« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2020, 11:41:19 PM »

Many of our divorces do end in some sort of a settlement.  Mine did, though it took slogging through some two years of a divorce process to get to that trial date where she had to finally face reality.  It's a long marathon to get there.  And usually it is an important looming court hearing or trial that puts you over the finish line.  I really don't know if you'd call it an epiphany.  In my case, she had a favorable temporary court order and and it was to her benefit to keep it going as long as she could, until she had to face the reality of a trial.
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« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2020, 03:43:28 AM »

Thanks guys and gals,

The mediators role is to neutrally guide us through the divorce process. It's pitched as a friendly way of achieving the divorce in a collaborative fashion. For me the mediation process (1x mediator, 1x New-Life, 1x STBX in attendance) requires the following from each individual in the process:

Preparation - Being prepared to do the work to up-skill ourselves on areas we lack knowledge. Attending each meeting being informed or at least willing to be informed of the matters in hand.

Ability to make choices - Being prepared to make choices about 'what I want' and 'what I want my life to look like'... however ridiculous. At least with a firm agenda of what each individual wants there is a 'market' with which compromise could be plausible.

Willingness to honour the compromises that are reached - It's far far too easy for a 3rd party lawyer to convince each individual they could 'get more'. It takes strength and commitment to resist the temptation to tear up the non-legally binding agreement BEFORE it's signed and submitted as a court order and thus becomes binding.

A friend of mine is a commercial litigation lawyer and in his experience it's extremely rare for clients to reject a mediator mid way through a course of mediation. Yes mediation can fail and thus the case is taken to court, but almost never is the mediator rejected unless a conflict of interest is revealed. He described it as a jockey changing horses mid race.

I have replied asking for concrete evidence of the mediators failings.

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« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2020, 09:13:05 AM »

Do you think you can talk her back into using the mediator?  You are asking her for something that she isn't going to give you.  She doesn't like the mediator, and is now unwilling to work with him more.  So assuming she sticks to her position, what is your next step?
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« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2020, 11:28:29 AM »

I tend to agree with the others that your mediation is blown.  You have been in the process for close to a year without a twinkle of progress. Without taking sides, I think its fair to say that neither of you approached it with the goodwill, skill or motivations that are need to be in place to make mediation work. Mediation doesn't work for many couples. Especially when communication, respect, and trust has completely broken down.

I have replied asking for concrete evidence of the mediators failings

Why not agree with her, New-Life. This has then benefit of you both finally agreeing to something (after years) and it allows you both to save face by writing off the failed mediators to the mediator - rather than blaming each other.

I'd step it up in the next go at.

Collaborative divorce involves both parties and their respective solicitors signing up at the start to work on a collaborative process. This means they agree to work to a solution without going to court. Four-way meetings can then take place with both parties having their lawyer present. The key difference between mediation and collaboration (in the UK) is this offers legal representation in discussions.

What is happening with your mortgage balloon payment due at the end of November?
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« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2020, 01:58:06 PM »

As things stand at the moment STBXW wants to stay in a mediator + W + New-Life arrangement, just a different person.

At what point do I say “no more bed hopping?”, now or after our 5th mediator? I’m inclined to push back on the reasoning for this one.

Mortgage issue is still an issue although coming to a head with even W conceding we’re running out of road. In my last response I asked for times when we could ring the bank together and apply for a replacement mortgage which I have little doubt of our ability to secure.
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« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2020, 02:56:36 PM »

What Skip wrote.  You can agree with her that the mediator didn't work out.  However you then state you don't believe any other mediator will succeed either.  So it's either this mediator or lacking real progress soon then some level of divorce proceeding.

Typically once she is served a court hearing date is set.  You won't agree to continue it to another date unless there is demonstrable progress in the meantime.

You need some teeth now.  Appeasing or giving in will only continue the delays.  Sorry.  It's time you are "the brick wall versus her irresistible/manipulative force".  It's called Boundaries.*  From now on you only agree to delays when there is real evidence the delays are to help progress, not delay it.

* Your stbEx surely hates and sabotages boundaries.  A boundary to have better likelihood of success is where the boundary is your response.  I like to describe a boundary with this format, "If you do or don't do ____ then I will do or not do ____."

That's what we're suggesting now.  "Mediation didn't succeed.  I don't see another mediator being any better than this one.  So the next step is to move to some sort of divorce with court involved.  If we take the collaborative method and it does not make progress then it goes to court and court will ensure things move along.  Either way, things will move forward."  That's one way to state your Boundary.
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« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2020, 04:43:15 PM »

As things stand at the moment STBXW wants to stay in a mediator + W + New-Life arrangement, just a different person.

At what point do I say “no more bed hopping?”, now or after our 5th mediator? I’m inclined to push back on the reasoning for this one.


Now.

The goal of mediation is to facilitate an agreement between the two parties (I am a registered mediator but worked in corporate HR.) It is not the goal or the job of the mediator to be "fair." However, a good mediator will provide info on guidelines and what courts typically rule.

 Changing mediators thinking that it will result in a better outcome is magical thinking. Her view of an equitable settlement is magical thinking. Her belief that her affair with OM could stay a secret from the daughters was and continues to be magical thinking.

It seems the goal needs to be pulling her out of magical thinking before any progress can be made. Changing mediators won't do that.
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« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2020, 07:24:31 PM »


I question whether or not it is reasonable to believe this can be settled outside court or at very least the courthouse steps.

There are tons of stories on here where an "emotional thinker" (pwBPD) faced the reality of a judge ruling and decided to settle. 

No way to know if that will happen in your case...but it seems safe to say that a "reasonable" path to resolution is unlikely to be found.

I pulled a few quotes that really stood out to me.

Best,

FF


She believes I am demonic and have been controlling what she thinks for decades. The likelihood of her aligning herself with my view based on my sales pitch or my words is very remote. I will work with whatever she comes back with and I'll find a route through.

Understand that logic doesn't figure into the mindset of a person with BPD.  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)
 


with a disordered person the path to resolution will be bumpy.   it won't make logical sense.  it won't involve understanding or clarity.    it doesn't work that way.


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« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2020, 10:01:21 AM »

Me

Excerpt
Please could you provide specifics about the negative feedback you have received about XXXXXX. My experience of his professional capability has thus far been as expected if not above expected. It strikes me that there could be a possible conflict of interest between Solicitors and professional mediators, so I’m somewhat sceptical about making sudden change without some concrete evidence.

Her response:

Excerpt
I will not be providing specifics and am clear in my decision to not return to XXXXXX. 

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« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2020, 10:06:02 AM »

All-righty then.

Your move.

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« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2020, 11:01:01 AM »

In addition to this her solution to the mortgage issue is that I apply for a mortgage under single applicant rather than joint application. I hate this idea:

Excerpt
On first glance I do not like this solution at all. Being sole name on a liability (a mortgage) vs joint names on an asset (the house) without legal protection of a financial agreement is utterly unappetising. I do not understand what your issue is with regards to entering into another joint mortgage with me as a solution to this problem. It make sense that whilst you are joint beneficiary of an asset you should have joint liability to the debt associated with it. There needs to be some linkage between the 2 or a formalised agreement in place detailing out disproportionate claims on the properties cash proceeds.

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« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2020, 11:04:29 AM »

Your move.

I am confused how she believes that her actions are both reasonable and rational (Maybe she doesn't and/or maybe she is being encouraged to play games by her lawyer). If she cannot string together some semblance of reasonable decision making skills whilst having the time to contemplate and take council on her response on email, what hope does she have in any further 1 on 1 legal mediation?
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« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2020, 11:06:05 AM »


I would advise you spend less time trying to "understand" and more time "accepting" that she is where she is...(and is unlikely to change).

Does that help clarify YOUR path forward?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2020, 11:22:11 AM »

What is your goal?

By all measures, your STBX doesn't have the legal or business skills to represent herself in a divorce settlement. She is floundering.

You are in a "learn as you go" mode and shunning all convention in a system that is driven by convention. And politely, your negotiation skills are not bottom line oriented.

If we take BPD out of the equation, this still would not be working. It might be less emotional, but the dynamics needed aren't in place.

Shifting off the legal for a moment...

Sometimes we are so desperate to hold on to a relationship that we will cling to dysfunction rather than let go. We see it on the board all the time. If this was just a dissolution of a marriage, I think it would all be much more straight forward. It really seems that there are other agendas at play, consciously or subconsciously. I will give examples rather than speculate. The desire to win. The desire to punish. The desire to outwit. The desire to teach a lesson. The desire for moral, intellectual superiority (codependency). Vindication. Etc.

I will not be providing specifics and am clear in my decision to not return to XXXXXX.

It was a bad play on your part and this response should have been expected. All she did was dig her heels in. Honestly, if I was her, I would have rejected your request. At best its condescending.

In a straight negotiation, one keeps the ball in motion. For example. "If you want to change things because its not working, then I'd like lets change the process too and mediate with collaborative lawyers attending. Fair. I think you are right."

A request that the other party provide evidence to support their thinking is backward motion.
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« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2020, 11:33:49 AM »

I am confused how she believes that her actions are both reasonable and rational

Reading people is not your best skill. Some people are good at it. A lot of us here, aren't the best. Getting help with that is a reason to be here.
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« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2020, 11:42:44 AM »

I am trying to ensure that my life after is as prosperous as possible. She is attempting to switch from a low cost option that could work with her effort and prioritisation, to a more costly option with limited scope for improvement.

The maths...

Current mediator = £100 per person per hour +VAT... = £480 for a 2 hour session.

Proposed mediator = £390 per hour +VAT... = £936 for a 2 hour session (as much scope for success as current mediation)

Skips suggestion = £390 per hour +VAT for suggested mediator... +2x £305 per hour solicitor + VAT... = £2400 for a 2 hour session.

Since background work is being completed at least on my W's side one might suggest that's a sunk cost on all options. Currently I have limited needs must contact with my L so one would imagine she would need 2+ Hours work to prepare Bullet: comment directed to __ (click to insert in post) £305 + VAT an hour, so an additional £732.

Skip, your suggestion may well be where the ball ends but batting the ball straight there strikes me as hating money a little... especially when there seems to be no justification given for the change of tack to a more costly solution.
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« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2020, 11:44:11 AM »

Reading people is not your best skill. Some people are good at it. A lot of us here, aren't the best. Getting help with that is a reason to be here.

I have shared my W's emails with quite a few people in an attempt to find her angle... I must know a lot of people who are also poor at reading people. Since none of them have managed to see a reasonable or rational reason for the decision.
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« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2020, 12:43:37 PM »

  Since none of them have managed to see a reasonable or rational reason for the decision.

I agree there is not an apparent reasonable or rational reason for the decision.

I'm curious why you expect to find one, since it doesn't appear she is a reasonable or rational person.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2020, 12:47:31 PM »

Since none of them have managed to see a reasonable or rational reason for the decision.

I could think of some things...
Nothing has been accomplished in a year of mediation...
She is lost and doesn't know what to do or how to do it (as there is no one helping her)...

£2400 for a 2 hour session.

How much have you budgeted for getting this divorce done?  Best case, worst case?
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« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2020, 01:20:08 PM »

How many sessions would you be sill my to try before moving to collaborative divorce? And then how many collaborative negotiation sessions would you be willing to attend before moving to contested divorce? In addition to what you have budgeted money-wise for a mediated settlement, what is your goal or bottom line time-wise?

Many people on this board, over the 12 years I've been on, have spent $100,000+ on a divorce that went on forever.
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« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2020, 03:03:16 PM »

The Best Predictor of Future Behavior Is … Past Behavior

We see her behavior as you've described.  We see your behavior.  Going down the same paths until now didn't work and and won't work either going forward.  So you have to change up something.  Can you Accept that you have to let some things go and focus on what you can more likely gain success?

She wants you to refinance the house in your name only?  Is she willing to sign over to you a quit claim deed so she has no ownership of the property?  If not, then you can't do what she wants.

Imagine this scenario:  You cave to her stubborn refusal and refinance the jointly owned house in your name only.  Later in the divorce negotiations she ends up getting the house.  The agreement states (1) you give her a quit claim deed and (2) she refinances.  You comply with the requirement to give her a quit claim deed.  However, she fails to apply for a mortgage in her name only, or she applies and fails to get a mortgage approved.  Where do you stand?  You don't own the house and you are liable for the next 15-30 years if she fails to pay the mortgage (or fails to have insurance and there's a loss on the property) on a house you don't own and in which you don't reside.

Even if you end up with the house, what if she refuses to comply and sign over to you a quit claim deed?  Sadly, courts are willing to make orders or approve filed settlements but they're surprising weak in enforcing their orders.

What Leverage for compliance can you include in any settlement or proposed court order?  One of the easiest to get past a judge is where there is a structured set of actions.  For example, if you owe her some funds or assets of any type, you will be required to release them to her, perhaps in stages, based on her progress in complying with her part of the terms.  One piece might be something like this... "New-Life will place in escrow with his lawyer $XXXX which will be delivered to Ex within one week of Ex's delivering a signed quit claim to the property to his lawyer and vacating the property."  Your leverage is the chunk of cash (or whatever) that she wants but can't get until she complies.  Your stbEx may be disordered, illogical and a mess, but most pwBPD know the value of money. Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2020, 03:25:51 PM »

I am trying to ensure that my life after is as prosperous as possible. She is attempting to switch from a low cost option that could work with her effort and prioritisation, to a more costly option with limited scope for improvement.

The maths...

Current mediator = £100 per person per hour +VAT... = £480 for a 2 hour session.

Proposed mediator = £390 per hour +VAT... = £936 for a 2 hour session (as much scope for success as current mediation)

Skips suggestion = £390 per hour +VAT for suggested mediator... +2x £305 per hour solicitor + VAT... = £2400 for a 2 hour session.

Since background work is being completed at least on my W's side one might suggest that's a sunk cost on all options. Currently I have limited needs must contact with my L so one would imagine she would need 2+ Hours work to prepare Bullet: comment directed to __ (click to insert in post) £305 + VAT an hour, so an additional £732.

Skip, your suggestion may well be where the ball ends but batting the ball straight there strikes me as hating money a little... especially when there seems to be no justification given for the change of tack to a more costly solution.

So let's consider the options:
1.  No mediator.  You refuse to accept a new mediator.  Ball is in her court.  She can go direct to legal action or stay in status quo.  How does status quo look to you?  It sounds like retaining your current home might be difficult.

2.  Go with her mediator that costs more.  Your prediction is that route will just cost more but not result in success.

3.  Go with mediator and lawyer.  This costs a lot more, but do you agree it is more likely to result in success?

4.  Go directly to court.  Do you view this as a better path than the 3 above?

5.  Magical thinking - get her to change her mind.  I put this one in, as it is the route you have currently chosen, but can you agree that it is unlikely to be a successful solution?
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« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2020, 04:12:37 AM »

So let's consider the options:
1.  No mediator.  You refuse to accept a new mediator.  Ball is in her court.  She can go direct to legal action or stay in status quo.  How does status quo look to you?  It sounds like retaining your current home might be difficult.

2.  Go with her mediator that costs more.  Your prediction is that route will just cost more but not result in success.

3.  Go with mediator and lawyer.  This costs a lot more, but do you agree it is more likely to result in success?

4.  Go directly to court.  Do you view this as a better path than the 3 above?

5.  Magical thinking - get her to change her mind.  I put this one in, as it is the route you have currently chosen, but can you agree that it is unlikely to be a successful solution?


I like bullet point so this seems like a good response to get to grips with my thoughts here.

1 - This is a game of chicken. That doesn't sound wise nor does it demonstrate reasonable behaviour on my part either and just plays into the hands of the courts.

2 - Going to more costly mediator without solving the issues I suspect are at the core of her decision (using excuses about lawyers incompetence), is just likely to cost more and achieve the same outcome as current mediator would have i.e. her confused, her scared, her overwhelmed, her unwilling to make choices about what she wants. In many ways the reason why I am pushing back and asking for detail on her reasoning "Mediator bad" is because I suspect that it is not true and there's 'other reasons' such as "I don't trust the mediator, the mediator is on your side, the mediator can no longer be impartial given he knows about my affair, I tried to get mediator onside and he didn't tell you off for taking your time to respond to things".

3 - I agree this is likely to yield the quickest result albeit I'm less concerned by speed since I'm sitting pretty in a house I'd like to keep (the matrimonial house), accruing savings each month, embedding my position as 50/50 parent each month. From a cost perspective I get 10 hours of the current mediators time for every 2 hours I get with the all guns blazing mediation and 5 hours with the mid-range variety.

4 - I certainly do not see this as preferable to 1-3

5 - I'll assume you mean change her mind about ditching mediators not change her mind about the D. I'm not sure I thought she would change her mind, but it was reasonable for me to since she didn't provide any reasonable reasons for her decision and nor is it reasonable to request such a change of tact without evidence of gross misconduct (which she has failed to demonstrate).

My best/worst case scenarios for cost were £5k-£120k. I suspect we're currently on £5k already but I don't know how much W has spent. 

I would like to add 2 additional options:

6 - We mediate over email. She takes council where she feels she needs to as do I. (she's already rejected this proposal, however I don't agree with her since mediation on principles and agreements are better where each of us can take council and refer to information out of a 1 to 1 environment where responses are required immediately)
Excerpt
. I agree that some of the details can be discussed between ourselves (such as the below) but mediation on principles and agreements needs to be through a third party.

7 -  I deal directly with her lawyer and seek council on things I am not sure of. i.e. I speak to someone able and equipped to represent her on a level playing field. The risk is clearly that her lawyer knows the law considerably better than me and will attempt to trip me up rather than get a reasonable deal over the line. This means I do the grunt work in answering admin questions and spend money on advice only. I have done this already with regards to my proposal which I've tabled albeit not directly with her lawyer.

My preference is option 6. I would guess this is the least emotionally intense option as well...  for both of us.
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« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2020, 04:14:01 AM »

Foreverdad,

I'm in agreement with you on the mortgage from, I don't like it and think it leaves me wide open to shenanigans.
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« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2020, 04:35:00 AM »

I'm curious why you expect to find one, since it doesn't appear she is a reasonable or rational person.

FF, I don't expect to find one. I know that there is 'A reason' and maybe if that reason were given (even if it's irrational, unreasonable or even tactical, malicious) that reason could be addressed.

My thoughts are that we're in a different phase now. Or maybe just I am. We're certainly in a different arena where certain behaviour is expected. We're not in a marriage counselling arena now where feelings are centre stage, I'm not holding out for the marriage to miraculously repair itself and I'm taking her word for what she wants... She wants a divorce and she wants to be with someone else.

In marriage counselling it is reasonable if not expected for someone to act irrationally and emotionally. When dealing with a divorce and the decisions associated with that process it is reasonable to expect someone to act rationally (despite the process being very emotionally triggering).

My questioning her decision shines a light on her irrational decision making, and I think that's okay in this new phase.
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« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2020, 05:54:37 AM »

My questioning her decision shines a light on her irrational decision making, and I think that's okay in this new phase.

but thats not really a practical or successful strategy for divorcing, and im not sure its a new phase at all.

New-Life, i think members are trying to tell you that you are dug into the old dynamics of the broken relationship as you ever were, and they arent serving you, or the process.

not agreeing at worst, or negotiating on the mediator, is pretty standard in the best of scenarios. does pushing her and trying to catch her on her reasoning (which is obvious) really help you more than trying to navigate the process before you?

wouldnt it serve you and the process better to hear what she has in mind going forward?
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« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2020, 07:18:36 AM »

OR,

The mediator was already set... we're mid race.

Excerpt
trying to catch her on her reasoning (which is obvious)

Do you mean that her reasons are obvious (in which case please enlighten me), or do you mean my attempts to catch her on her reasoning are obvious? In which case yes, I am unashamedly trying to shine a light on her lack of rational reasoning for the switch.

My response:

Excerpt
I am discouraged by your decision not to provide evidential details to support your decision. It concerns me that without ascertaining the root cause of XXXXX perceived failings we might change mediators only to establish the same dynamic exists.

Please could you:
•   Tell me what your expectations are from a new mediator and what would be different?
•   Provide a cost and availability breakdown for your suggested mediators. Please exclude XXXX Bullet: comment directed to __ (click to insert in post) XXXX as I am currently speaking to them.

Once I have this information I will consider the two options you have left me with and/or propose other mediator options of my own.
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« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2020, 08:22:35 AM »

I'm sitting pretty in a house I'd like to keep (the matrimonial house), accruing savings each month, embedding my position as 50/50 parent each month.

Thanks for putting this out there. This was my point earlier. This is the alternate agenda (part of it) that is driving your actions.

You often accused her of being immoral and just wanting her current life with you gone... but in effect, the opposite has happened... you got the current life and she is gone.

So staying with the ineffective mediation is your preference. It's not about her being unreasonable or irrational.

New-life, this is the same passive-aggressive stuff that was going on in the house when she was living there (old-life). This is why, as you said earlier,  "She believes I am demonic and have been controlling what she thinks for decades".

We are not giving her a "bye". She was in an affair and that was wrong. But we're not giving you a bye either - two wrongs don't make a right... especially when there are 3 little girls in the fighting cage with you two. We all see that you're selling a false narrative.

I am unashamedly trying to shine a light on her lack of rational reasoning for the switch.

This is called "high conflict".

Excerpt
I am discouraged by your decision not to provide evidential details to support your decision... //... Once I have this information I will consider the two options you have left me with and/or propose other mediator options of my own.  

This is "high conflict", too. You are really down to her - like she is a child.

Flip it around. Could you provide "evidential details" (whatever that is) as to how the current mediating path which has produced nothing in a year, will be productive going forward. Could you do it without "shinning light" on her inferior intelligence.

This is just conflict in a process that is about "collaboration". Polite. Passive. Cutting.

This is very much like a child throwing lit matches at a gas can. Most won't result in anything other than a fizzle as the child gets more brazen and closer to the can and then... pow.

No one wins in high conflict divorce.
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« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2020, 08:39:51 AM »


No one wins in high conflict divorce.


Said another way...usually most of the people involved lose.

Can I ask you to "reflect back" or "explain back" why Skip believes "shining light" on lack of rational reasoning is high conflict? 

Best,

FF

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« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2020, 09:57:51 AM »

Skip,

Excerpt
You often accused her of being immoral and just wanting her current life with you gone... but in effect, the opposite has happened... you got the current life and she is gone.

I didn't make choices that would alter the life I had. I stood still, carried on going to work, improved my parenting, learnt to bite my tongue. Put it another way, would 'this' life exist without me in it... lets say I died with no life insurance, would it exist? No, not at all. Does the house fall apart?... no... Do the kids eat differently surviving only on ready meals?... nope... Is the house a mess? Nope, spotless... are we penniless... nope.

Excerpt
So staying with the ineffective mediation is your preference. It's not about her being unreasonable or irrational...

...Flip it around. Could you provide "evidential details" (whatever that is) as to how the current mediating path which has produced nothing in a year, will be productive going forward. Could you do it without "shinning light" on her inferior intelligence.

The choice to use a mediator was W's choice, I was passive (not aggressive) about pursuit of a divorce. The effectiveness of mediation has(d) nothing to do with the mediator and I could evidence that. Staying with the original mediator is my preference, yes, because it's cheap and I don't want my W to cannibalise both our economic futures plus we have invested time and money and he knows the lay of the land. Progress was made in each session and homework set... it had great potential. Yes it was evident that my W needed additional support (not for the lack of intelligence but a lack of confidence and arguably an unwillingness to be responsible for decisions that determine her own destiny) but to say mediation didn't work is like "My boomerang won't come back"... "well first you gotta throw it!". There's no point in saying that the process didn't work when you never followed the process in the first place, nor put sufficient effort into the thing you actually said you wanted in the first place. I could understand if it were me asking for a divorce and her being apathetic about the effort required to achieve it.

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« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2020, 10:30:34 AM »

It doesn't appear you answer the question from Skip that you quoted.  It appears you claim you could answer it...but then?

What evidence can you provide that the current mediating path will be (or is likely to) be productive in the future?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2020, 10:49:08 AM »

Said another way...usually most of the people involved lose.
Can I ask you to "reflect back" or "explain back" why Skip believes "shining light" on lack of rational reasoning is high conflict? 

I don't know why Skip thinks this is high conflict but I would say that it's high conflict because it is in direct contravention of what she feels she needs to get what she wants... and yes, this is an extension of the marital conflict and this is how we've come to be at this point. I have no doubts about that. I have spent many years now on the whole appeasing her wants and needs (with the exception of a few key lines in the sand like moving out. The boards spent a period of time telling me that I should no longer be a doormat, that I should no longer allow her to determine my destiny and I should put some boundaries... what's it to be?
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« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2020, 11:27:31 AM »

Ok, she has rejected the current mediator.  She will probably reject email only mediation.  If she does not budge on either of those items, what is your next step?  I have to assume her next step is legal action.
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« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2020, 11:31:33 AM »

  I should no longer be a doormat, that I should no longer allow her to determine my destiny and I should put some boundaries... what's it to be?

Well..it depends. 

If you are attempting to continue a relationship with her...then I agree with all of this and you have a long term vision.

When you are talking about divorce...there is no long term horizon.  In fact, the shorter the horizon (quicker to final divorce) is almost always better, especially for the man (or the "non").

We are not suggesting you let her walk all over you.  We are suggesting (or at least I am) that you find a way that works for both of you.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2020, 12:24:36 PM »

I would like to find the cheapest version (which preserves mine and the kids future) which she will stick to. I see no point in "validating" her that we should move to her solution if there's a low  chance of that being any more effective than the current solution. I wonder if this is a point that's been lost in all my mumble... as I asked her... how is your solution going to be any more effective than the solution we already have?

Excerpt
What evidence can you provide that the current mediating path will be (or is likely to) be productive in the future?

I cannot provide evidence to guarantee this. If that was the benchmark for success the only option I could ever put to her would be going to court since that definitely does guarantee that a decision will be made. What seems rational though is that if the current mediator explained things carefully and considerately and followed a methodical path through mediation, and the new person is also likely to deal with the matter in a comparative way, YET no changes are made by my W then that 'should' also fail to be productive.
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« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2020, 01:56:10 PM »

What you may have to do is step aside from your perceived high moral ground and just find a way or take a path that gets the divorce done.  Courts, at least in the USA, generally don't care who was right or wrong, fair or unfair.  Court is, by and large, similar to a mediator, it wants to help get the marriage unwound.  One of the differences is that court can wield a big stick.  It doesn't want to, mostly it uses it's leverage to influence, creating pressure with hearings and event dates to get it done.  Only rarely does it metaphorically bop parents on their heads.

Can you do that?  Can you just focus on what needs to get done and set aside your own perceptions of justice and injustice?
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« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2020, 03:20:47 PM »

I would like to find the cheapest version (which preserves mine and the kids future) which she will stick to. I see no point in "validating" her that we should move to her solution if there's a low  chance of that being any more effective than the current solution. I wonder if this is a point that's been lost in all my mumble... as I asked her... how is your solution going to be any more effective than the solution we already have?

It sounds like to me that your goal of "cheapest approach" is likely to be the most expensive approach.  Your only proposals are ones that she is rejecting.  If she can't get your agreement on her solution, and you can't get her agreement on your solution, then the only option is to litigate everything in courts.

You accuse her of acting irrationally, but to be honest, right now your actions don't appear very rational either.  First step in acting rationally, imo, is to believe her when she says she won't continue to use the existing mediator, and she is unwilling to do things via email.  You don't have to agree with her decisions, to believe that they are indeed the positions that she is taking.
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« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2020, 06:41:18 AM »

Hey Fian,

As per my response to here above I have accepted her stance but asked what she would expect from her new path. Are you suggesting that I should just accept her new path and allow her to test whether or not this new path yields any results?

Whatever is chosen I am committed to working with it at least to give it the best chance of working... as I believe I have done on the previous paths.

New-Life
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« Reply #45 on: November 09, 2020, 07:15:54 AM »

 You don't have to agree with her decisions, to believe that they are indeed the positions that she is taking.

I would add to this that in her notional new path, she is unlikely to be able to explain how she believes it will be better.

From what I know of BPDish stuff, it seems much easier for them to articulate "no" than "yes".

And then once they have said yes and likely done an inadequate job of explaining  yes...then implementing a yes path is an entirely new and more challenging thing.

So...it is very likely that if you desire an inexpensive path, you will bear the brunt of "getting stuff done", which seems to be the opposite of the more passive approach you seem to have taken.

1.  If your goal is to not be divorced or for it to take a long time...the passive approach seems rational.

2.  If your goal is to be divorced and for it to happen quickly...passive approach seems irrational.

3.  If your goal is to have her explain her position rationally...I don't think that's going to happen.

4.  If your goal is for her to be consistent over time with what she may agree to..I don't think that's going to happen.

For the sake of argument, I would ask that you accept the above as axioms.  

How are 2 and 4 related and what is a rational solution for 2 and 4?
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« Reply #46 on: November 09, 2020, 09:22:35 AM »

Hey Fian,

As per my response to here above I have accepted her stance but asked what she would expect from her new path. Are you suggesting that I should just accept her new path and allow her to test whether or not this new path yields any results?

Whatever is chosen I am committed to working with it at least to give it the best chance of working... as I believe I have done on the previous paths.

New-Life

I am confused.  I thought you were pushing her in the direction of email.  Her proposed path is more mediation just a more expensive one which you have stated is unlikely to produce a better result than current moderation.  So have you agreed to a new, more expensive moderator?
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« Reply #47 on: November 09, 2020, 09:41:44 AM »

My best/worst case scenarios for cost were £5k-£120k. I suspect we're currently on £5k already but I don't know how much W has spent. 

W has likely spent 2x as much because she's bugging lawyer with all sorts of questions.  And I'm not sure how it works where you are but here, if you lose in court, you can be stuck paying your opponent's fees...  and with a BPD, they can be hefty.  And if you win? you're unlikely to recover much unless the other party has money because the judge will have mercy otherwise.  It's a nightmare.  
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« Reply #48 on: November 09, 2020, 05:03:46 PM »

I just caught up on this thread, and wow.  You have a deadline in THREE WEEKS for a major financial decision, and your STBX has zero incentive to cooperate with you, and every incentive not to.

You're spending your time trying to argue logic with someone who is incapable of acting logically. Why are you doing that to yourself?

What is your primary goal?

1) Be divorced?
2) Slow crawl the divorce so that you can keep the house and/or not be divorced?
3) Have ex admit she's wrong?
4) ?

Be honest.
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« Reply #49 on: November 10, 2020, 12:50:43 PM »

Hey Worriedstepmom,

Like much of this stuff I have been told that I can go to court, spend loads of money and get a judge to sign a joint application for a new mortgage. In the same vein I could spend a silly amount of money on lawyers and have this divorce wrapped up in a couple of months by forcing the agenda. Alas spending £120k on lawyers all round isn't that appealing since it cannibalises my own future.

The joys of email allow me to tackle multiple points at the same time. I know that I can get a mortgage with the bank (same bank) in my name max 2 weeks since it's an internal trade. I know that I can also get a joint mortgage done in 2 weeks. I have enough correspondence to demonstrate if this ever went to court that I was taking mitigating action against an impending liability and my wife had proven to be unreasonable in her stance. As much as I don't like getting said mortgage in my own name vs joint I think as measured risks go it's okay. Plus I am in the property, and have the majority of the capital in my sole name (as I earned it and saved it and we don't have joint accounts).

This isn't about understanding who is right or wrong... I don't know if my wife is right since she refuses to give me any further reasoning about her decisions. She might as well be standing there with her fingers in her ears singing la la la la la la la. She ignored my question about what she would expect with a new mediator so I am none the wiser as to what she's looking to achieve and whether this new change is likely to be effective.

My primary objective is to have as much of what I have (and the kids) at the moment intact post divorce. I'm in no hurry.

Excerpt
So...it is very likely that if you desire an inexpensive path, you will bear the brunt of "getting stuff done", which seems to be the opposite of the more passive approach you seem to have taken.

I utterly agree with this statement, and this is the position I find myself in. e.g. she sends a nonsense divorce proposal... then chases why I've not responded to it. I re-write the proposal and apply it to a known legal process. I don't want a divorce BUT I see that one absolutely needs to happen now. I can't much imagine that ANY time will be spent reviewing my W's proposal and it will all be about the one I have put on the table... so it'll be my divorce that I've given her... which is the last thing I wanted to be responsible for. I am bored spending all my waking hours (and hours when I want to be sleeping) thinking about how I can succinctly respond to her, not emotionally trigger her and encourage her towards a path that is likely to result in SOME progress whatever that is.

My sister is heavily involved now and attempting to help me navigate things... she's ex top 4 accounting firm, so's her husband... not idiots and plenty of client facing experience... It's been 3-4 months of their involvement and I think they are losing the will to live and partially appreciate the maddening nature of it all.

"I can see why people have a party at the end of this!"

New-Life
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« Reply #50 on: November 10, 2020, 03:09:08 PM »

So your goal is to slow-walk the divorce while continuing to try to get your STBX to make sense?
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« Reply #51 on: November 10, 2020, 04:11:52 PM »

Slow or fast I don’t care. I’ve resided myself that she will never make sense hence I have concluded that a divorce is necessary.

I have just received a mail from her suggesting I should choose the new mediator... which is ironic since I didn’t think there was anything wrong with the last one! And she’s refused to tell me what she’s looking for from a new one! Head hits desk
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« Reply #52 on: November 10, 2020, 04:50:35 PM »

  I have concluded that a divorce is necessary.

So...if this is true.  Can you think of a benefit from concluding quickly?  Can you think of a benefit of dragging it out?

I would hope you can respond to the email with a

"OK...I find one and get back to you in a a couple days."

Best,

FF
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« Reply #53 on: November 10, 2020, 04:59:03 PM »

If you select this new mediator, can you limit the number of sessions you will attend? Otherwise, you're going to find yourself in this same place again. And then again.

Ad infinitum nauseum.
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« Reply #54 on: November 10, 2020, 05:55:09 PM »

If you select this new mediator, can you limit the number of sessions you will attend? Otherwise, you're going to find yourself in this same place again. And then again.

Ad infinitum nauseum.

Mr Spock:  "Captain Kirk, To respond with logic to an illogical demand is illogical."

If you do go down the path of using a new mediator, (1) ask your current mediator for a list of qualified mediators, (2) the new mediator can get the background and mediation status from the existing mediator, (3) you will file in court to get that process started so no delays when mediation succeeds/fails, (4) set a firm time limit on mediation, no extensions.
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« Reply #55 on: November 10, 2020, 07:25:24 PM »

Find a collaborative lawyer that you like.  Ask him for a mediator.
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« Reply #56 on: November 11, 2020, 03:21:25 AM »

She has given me a list of 3 mediators, price and rough availability. She has expressed no preference for any of them.

It would seem it's just a case of "anyone, but that guy".

I haven't responded yet and now have a small backlog of things I need to respond to (questions from her), and a whole mountain of things that I've not had any response from her about... some of which I'm never likely to either.
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« Reply #57 on: November 11, 2020, 09:56:48 AM »

She has given me a list of 3 mediators, price and rough availability. She has expressed no preference for any of them.

It would seem it's just a case of "anyone, but that guy".

She is acting reasonably from her perspective. She desperately wants out of the relationship. It was a huge message when she moved out. Now she wants certainty and control in her life and freedom from you. She doesn't seem know how to navigate herself out, but she is trying.

You want to slow walk this. You want to keep competency out and let her wallow. You control the most of the marital property. Time is on your side.

It seems silly to be complaining about her, when in fact, she has been reasonable. She moved out. She's willing to do 50/50% on the kids. She's letting you pick the mediator. She has not hired the junkyard dog lawyer.

These are not signs of irrational behavior. She lack skills to do this, clearly. But she has in many ways been reasonable.

You know that she could bring the hammer down, hire the junk yard lawyer, but you are betting that either she wont, or if she does, you will be able to manage it. 

At the same time, you know that no matter what you offer her, she has no way of knowing if it is fair or trickery, and she is unlikely to agree to it. A third party will need to be involved to solve this, and you are sure a new mediator won't be able to fill that role because she won't fully trust his loyalties (which is reasonable).

It's obvious that this will only end with the Wrath of Con.

So you are getting advice, for the good of your family, to change direction while you can for your sake and the sake of the children. If you end up in family court with a junkyard dog lawyer, you will have little control but to watch the system churn you up and spit you out.

I sense from things that you have said all along that you have an expectation that family court will view things the way you see them... that they will take the time to understand the many transactions you and your wife have had. Family court is not that way - ask anyone who as been through it. They aren't going to get into the detail - they will slice and dice your money and property and kid time based on however the judge feels about the case and the people. The kids and to a lessor extend, your wife will need protection, and the court will give it to them - fair or not.

You may be getting a little lost in the detail and the resentment (which is normal) and missing the big picture.

Do you see this message in what has been said to you?
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« Reply #58 on: November 11, 2020, 12:36:41 PM »

My preference is option 6. I would guess this is the least emotionally intense option as well...  for both of us.

You know your case best, but it sounds to me like mediation is not going be effective.

My ex's attorney took the brunt of the emotions from my ex, but he worked with mine and got it done. When it was over, I appreciated his strength of character in doing that. Many attorneys would have just quit.

Somehow you have to blunt the emotions and keep it going.
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« Reply #59 on: November 11, 2020, 03:11:11 PM »

I think it's pretty unanimous on here that we all think your approach isn't working.

Why do you think you are on the right path?  What do you think we are missing?
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« Reply #60 on: November 11, 2020, 06:15:43 PM »

Don't expect too much from mediation. We had came to pretty big agreement on Friday which my ex wanted to sign but since she has BPD and it was a long day the mediator wanted to cover her ass and said that she had to wait until Monday to sign.  Of course her mood had changed and she doesn't want to sign it anymore because she doesn't understand it. 

It's maddening.   Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post)   And a big waste of $$$...
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« Reply #61 on: November 11, 2020, 11:20:14 PM »

If I understand things, you are willing to try another mediator, but you don't have high expectations that a new mediator will give better results.  There is one advantage of a new mediator.  She really can't reject a second mediator, and if she did, it would probably give you a major advantage on the legal side of things.  So if you don't see one of the three mediators as better than the other, and you are concerned about cost, maybe you pick the cheapest of the three.
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« Reply #62 on: November 12, 2020, 08:29:47 AM »

Do you see this message in what has been said to you?

Yes I do Skip

I  am frustrated that in her efforts to appear reasonable she still manages to be that little bit unreasonable and inconsistent.

I don't like mediator A for really good reasons that I will not tell you  Bullet: important point (click to insert in post) here a bunch of new mediators I've been told are good but won't specify why they are different  Bullet: important point (click to insert in post) you make the final choice... but you're not allowed to choose mediator A

"I want control but I don't want responsibility."

It's reasonable to ask to coe and see D12 here because D12 won't come to hers, it's unreasonable to spend the time here slagging my parenting off to the kids whilst here.

It's reasonable to question signing a new 25yr mortgage with me and attempt to find other alternatives. It's not reasonable to be 5 days away from D day and not given me definite response as to whether she will or will not sign.

The unreasonableness is in the detail. She has the support, she has the network of knowledgeable friends, she has the money, she has the intelligence to make this happen if she put her mind to it.

One note on something you said

Excerpt
At the same time, you know that no matter what you offer her, she has no way of knowing if it is fair or trickery, and she is unlikely to agree to it

I have offered her what she asked for... or at least I have shown her how she can get what she has asked for using more of her own means than mine. Based on the conversation I had with my lawyer it was reasonable and court process driven.
 
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« Reply #63 on: November 12, 2020, 08:30:29 AM »

maybe you pick the cheapest of the three.

Pretty much my plan
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« Reply #64 on: November 12, 2020, 08:35:20 AM »


I  am frustrated that in her efforts to appear reasonable she still manages to be that little bit unreasonable and inconsistent.
 

Do you think she is "thoughtfully" and "purposefully" trying to be reasonable? 

I don't.  I think she is doing what she does with the "skills" and ability to emotionally regulate that she has.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #65 on: November 12, 2020, 09:44:16 AM »

I don't.  I think she is doing what she does with the "skills" and ability to emotionally regulate that she has.

I agree FF, I would also add that she is being advised by people who also appear on the veneer surface to be reasonable yet act in utterly unreasonable ways. She is being advised that her actions are utterly reasonable... e.g. "Stonewalling question you don't want to answer is reasonable". Kinda a mal-application of a reasonable tool in an unreasonable situation.

"How often are you sleeping with OM?"... reasonable to not answer.
"Why will you not enter into a new joint names mortgage on the house?" ... not reasonable to not answer.

The narrative that all questions New-Life asks that I don't like it is reasonable to ignore or not answer.
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« Reply #66 on: November 13, 2020, 07:18:46 AM »

"How often are you sleeping with OM?"... reasonable to not answer.
"Why will you not enter into a new joint names mortgage on the house?" ... not reasonable to not answer.

This happens in divorce a lot (BPD or not). As it progresses, communication with her is going to continue to deteriorate. Often at the conclusion of divorces, there is no communication at all - the lawyers and the judges do all the conversing.

She feels that you are controlling/oppressing so it is refreshing to her to be on equal footing. You are struggling with that, which is common, too.

Breaking this down.

Excerpt
"I don't want to work with this mediator anymore because we are not getting anywhere in a year and people are telling me he has a reputation for that. Here are three options, pick one." ~  stbx wife.

In an equal adult setting, this is a full and complete, reasonable, and cooperative answer.

Excerpt
"Please provide evidentiary support for your decision for me to consider (or debate)" ~  New-Life wife.

Depending on how this was exactly phrased (and given her feelings that you are controlling and your admittance that you are stubborn), this is at best, condescending. It is reasonable for her to say "I'm not going down that rabbit hole".

STBX is asserting her independence from you. More of this is coming.

"Why will you not enter into a new joint names mortgage on the house?" ... not reasonable to not answer.

Breaking this down...

It's much the same. She has said no and from the "plantiffs side", that seems reasonable, too. Why should she get on the mortgage of the home you are going to live in? Why should she get on the mortgage of the home she thinks should be sold and funds distributed? Why should she "cut you a break" when you refused to "cut her a break"' on things that were important to her?

She is doing what you did... passive resistance.

The issue is not for her to explain, "why will you not enter into"...  The issue is for you to convince her "why doing this is in her best interest".

Do you see the point here? You are acting like you are her parent and demanding she convince you... You are expecting cooperation for the greater good when you refused to cooperate with her for the greater good.

Warning This is peanuts compared to what will likely happen if a junkyard lawyer get into this.

All the signals are here that she is going to do what it takes to get out of the relationship and that she sees you as plaintiff and defendant now, not husband and wife.

If this second mediator doesn't get this divorce settled, regardless of who is at fault, you can bet that her next step in a lawyer. And you say that the she has no ability to settle this herself and any self represented mediation is not likely to be effective.

You still have a chance to get this into a collaborative law situation... preemptively block her from stumbling into a junkyard dog.

She is driving this thing and its clear where it is headed.
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« Reply #67 on: November 17, 2020, 03:45:23 AM »

Skip, she already has a lawyer and has done since 2017. She's had plenty of advice already.

I'm not sure why you've decided to make up a reasonable narrative for my W and re-framed me as being unreasonable and condescending. Plain and simply the reasoning she gave bore no resemblance to email documented evidence, the mediators attempts to prompt meetings, his behaviour during the meetings or the quality of the documents he produced at our request. I'm not arguing feeling, I'm arguing facts here... her feelings do not come into the equation when measuring his professional competence, and she has used his professional competence as a reason to justify a change of mediator. You can't sue a builder based on your feeling about the wall he built even though the wall adheres to every construction standard, is straight, and in the place you asked for it to be. 

I have applied for a single applicant mortgage to mitigate the default. I believe I have enough correspondence to support that I am taking reasonable action to mitigate an event should any question be raised as to who's liability the mortgage is and what the purpose of my action is (and taken advice on that).

Excerpt
It's much the same. She has said no and from the "plantiffs side", that seems reasonable, too. Why should she get on the mortgage of the home you are going to live in? Why should she get on the mortgage of the home she thinks should be sold and funds distributed? Why should she "cut you a break" when you refused to "cut her a break"' on things that were important to her?

Because she has a legal obligation to maintain reasonable financial measures until such time other arrangements have been made through the correct legal channels, and I have been advised that I could (spend money) have a judge sign on her behalf. Lets flip this around... I've moved out and I'm a Disney Dad, the mortgage is coming to expiry, she needs me to roll the mortgage as she can't secure the mortgage under her own income... would it be reasonable for me to say "Nope!"? Under her plan how would those funds be distributed? What new house would either of us buy since I don't know how much capital I will get out of the distributed capital? What mortgage could I get not knowing what income I was paying away in spousal maintenance to her? Would we both rent until a resolution was found (even though staying in the matrimonial house is the most cost effective way of housing at least one of us... £750pcm vs £1500pcm min)?

I appreciate that in her mind all this is unreasonable and my actions/inaction and unwillingness to yield to her flights of fancy is seen in her eyes as combative, but, I can't really help her feelings and yielding to her magical thinking (that I should trust her and that she is trustworthy despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary) seems like it will inevitably put me (and my ability to provide for the children) in a pickle.

New-Life
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« Reply #68 on: November 17, 2020, 06:39:24 AM »

  is the most cost effective


So...what do you believe is the most cost effective way to divorce her?

Please compare her current lawyer to a "junk yard dog" lawyer.

I'm curious to see how you work out those numbers.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #69 on: November 17, 2020, 11:28:09 AM »

I could (spend money) have a judge sign on her behalf.

NL, I think you are not understanding the reality of family court.

If you went before a judge he would ask you what options you had and was loss you would suffer.

You told us earlier the bank would continue the loan if you simply set a court date.  You didn't try. You opted not to do that. You choose instead to self finance which you can easily do.

He would rule for her.

Lets flip this around... I've moved out and I'm a Disney Dad, the mortgage is coming to expiry, she needs me to roll the mortgage as she can't secure the mortgage under her own income... would it be reasonable for me to say "Nope!"?

It is magical thinking to think that the court sees you two as equal. It doesn't. You hold the credit rating. She would likely lose the house.

In this case, the judge would also rule for her.

You basing a lot of what you are doing on some expectation that a divorce trial operates like a murder trial. It doesn't - not at all.
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« Reply #70 on: November 17, 2020, 11:41:09 AM »

FF,

You and I both know that to come up with such a probability weighted outcome we would have to go through some serious game theory and a complex Monti Carlo which frankly I wasn't paying enough attention to in my micro economics university course to remember some 20 years down the track. If I'm correct it's a slightly more complex prisoners dilemma game.

I know it's not the most academically robust of answers but the most cost effective outcome will be for me to give each incremental stage the best chance it possibly can. The outcome of the prisoners dilemma is that both prisoners are incentivised to rat on each other in a self defeating manner. Whilst my W is not pursuing self defeating "rat" outcomes and I am not forced into such a simultaneous choice game I'm not sure why I would push for a move costly choice. I was trying to give the least costly option the greatest opportunity possible however my W appears to have scuppered that option.

New-Life
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« Reply #71 on: November 17, 2020, 11:51:33 AM »

You basing a lot of what you are doing on some expectation that a divorce trial operates like a murder trial. It doesn't - not at all.

No, I am basing my choices on legal opinion from the £305+VAT lawyer the board encouraged me to seek. Said lawyer also said that getting a court date for the divorce was unrealistic given the timescale since there would need to be a preliminary hearing before. Getting an emergency hearing for the mortgage matter would be possible (but costly).

Your response regarding "flipping it around"... my point was regarding what my W would think was reasonable, NOT what the court would see as reasonable. I full agree it would be reasonable for me to continue being joint names on the mortgage until such point financial mediation as concluded and docs signed.
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« Reply #72 on: November 17, 2020, 12:07:30 PM »

I was trying to give the least costly option the greatest opportunity possible however my W appears to have scuppered that option.

Your wife isn't motivated by the same things that you are.  Her logic is definitely not the same as yours.  Her goals are different than yours.

Therefore, if your planning is solely taking into account what is best for your pocketbook, under the assumption that she will (continue to) cooperate - your planning is flawed, and it is likely going to cost you a lot more money in the long run.  You'll end up paying for the cheap option AND one of the other options.  Because, honestly, what are the odds that another mediation will be successful?

That may be worth it to you, in the long run, because while the process drags out you continue to be married, you continue to live in the home, you continue to have a life that you seem pretty satisfied with, while not having to spend a lot of money YET.
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« Reply #73 on: November 17, 2020, 12:13:49 PM »

I have applied for a single applicant mortgage to mitigate the default.

I don't foresee any risk in doing this IF eventually during the course of the divorce process (1) you end up with the house or (2) the house is sold and proceeds split according to the terms of the divorce.

However, if your Ex eventually walks away with the house then you would, for the term of the mortgage, bear all the responsibility for the property and payment while she has the house but no responsibility.  For example, if she fails to maintain insurance and the house burns down, you will be stuck paying the mortgage for an empty lot.  Even if the terms of the mortgage require that there be insurance, how would you get her compliance to pay it?  Just so you know.
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« Reply #74 on: November 17, 2020, 12:16:37 PM »


You and I both know that to come up with such a probability weighted outcome we would have to go through some serious game theory and a complex Monti Carlo which  

I was deliberate to not set any parameters on how you would answer.

Listen...please read the following and experience it not as criticism or praise, but as an observation in a matter of fact way.

You are obviously a very well thought out...precise person.  I suspect many things in your life are very "tidy" and "done properly".  Hold on to those traits and please know that I appreciate them.

As you might have guessed by my screen name and avatar, I'm a retired Naval Aviator...so time on targets with tolerances expressed in seconds...precise altitudes and on and on.  I get it.

I also get that going into situations were you need to set that aside can be extremely uncomfortable (I'm probably saying that over politely)..

Anyway...for the sake of argument limit your analysis to two options.

1.  Pressing forward with her current legal team as quickly as possible and her current unreasonable/emotional "logic".

and

2.  Her finally despairing and getting a "junkyard dog lawyer" and turning the hounds of divorce hell loose on you.

Which one of those (at the end of the day..when  divorce is final) will cost you less money?

Which one of those (at the end of the day...defined as 20 years after final divorce) will have cost you less money?

The axiom that I'm going to ask you to use is that her despairing and getting a junkyard dog lawyer is a certainty, with the only known unknown  being the length of time it will take for her to reach despair and grab the junkyard dog.

Now...please run the analysis again and give me "more likely than not" answers.

Best,

FF

 
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« Reply #75 on: November 17, 2020, 03:47:48 PM »

After trying to negotiate in good faith and do a collaborative divorce, my ex suddenly engaged the services of a junkyard dog lawyer. Believe me, you don’t want to be in that position.

What will happen if she constantly feels you are being condescending and stonewalling or passive aggressive, she will finally lose her last shred of tolerance and hire an aggressive litigator...and you won’t see it coming.

So she’s had a lawyer for a few years. Doesn’t mean squat. Lots of lawyers refer out cases when they sense it’s going to be a high conflict litigation.
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« Reply #76 on: November 17, 2020, 08:40:26 PM »

After trying to negotiate in good faith and do a collaborative divorce, my ex suddenly engaged the services of a junkyard dog lawyer. Believe me, you don’t want to be in that position.

Yeah but that's not really something we have control over. You can negotiate something that seems fair (or even more than fair) and in the eyes of someone with BPD if they don't get everything it's like losing it all (ie: the feeling of entitlement).

I think that my ex is in the same boat.  Lawyer #3, this one seemed reasonable, yet in mediation things aren't going anywhere because she feels entitled, or agrees to something then changes her mind when it comes time to sign.   

There's only so much we can control...
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« Reply #77 on: November 17, 2020, 09:12:26 PM »

Yeah but that's not really something we have control over.

We certainly have influence over it and knowing this is likely we (nons) can elevate "speed" in our negotiating value.

You do have a point...not at all dismissing that.

I suppose another way to say it.  "Nons should not unnecessarily delay getting to a final divorce by chasing trivial or non-essential matters."


Best,

FF
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« Reply #78 on: November 17, 2020, 09:31:02 PM »

I suppose another way to say it.  "Nons should not unnecessarily delay getting to a final divorce by chasing trivial or non-essential matters."

This I fully agree with.  But every time we try to speed up things well it seems like the following roadblock is worse.
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« Reply #79 on: November 17, 2020, 09:39:37 PM »


So...my vantage point is watching the stories unfold here and also watching my brother in law (now ex brother in law) divorce my wife's sister (who is much much more BPDish than my wife).

One thing my BIL was advised and took onboard was that he needed to get a divorce "he could live with".  Nothing..nothing in there about "happy" or "satisfied" or any of that.

Kids were involved so the biggest thing he fought for were clauses about professional counseling.

Anyway, the most successful people seem to get to each roadblock do one or two dances with the pwBPD and either settle the issue or press forward to court...knowing that will either get the fairness or the pwBPD will crack under pressure and settle. 

Best,

FF
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« Reply #80 on: November 17, 2020, 11:56:43 PM »

One thing my BIL was advised and took onboard was that he needed to get a divorce "he could live with".  Nothing..nothing in there about "happy" or "satisfied" or any of that.

That's pragmatic... Accept "what is" and walk out with the least damage.

Anyway, the most successful people seem to get to each roadblock do one or two dances with the pwBPD and either settle the issue or press forward to court...knowing that will either get the fairness or the pwBPD will crack under pressure and settle.

With her not being in charge of parenting your two pre-teens recently since her move out, I just don't know how obstructive she will continue to be, or whether it will get worse.  That's an unknown, but in my view she lost some leverage with her move and reduced parental contact.  The longer she is not primary parent, the better for you (and the kids).  I have a couple favorite truisms on this topic.  They may or may not apply depending on which path New-Life's ex decides to take:

Court may not be fair but usually it is generally less unfair than our obstructive ex-spouses.

Typically the stbEx feels extremely entitled and in charge, however court is the Real Authority.  Going to court, if that's what has to be done, can bring reality to the stbEx and can surprise us with finally working out a settlement.
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« Reply #81 on: November 18, 2020, 07:46:19 AM »

Getting an emergency hearing for the mortgage matter would be possible (but costly).

I'm not sure why you debate this constructive advice. It's not helpful to you or her to get into tangential duels.

Respectfully, a 1 hour chat with an attorney is very different than a legal opinion after looking at discovery.

Sure, you could get a hearing. Did the lawyer say, based on an understanding of the situation, that you would likely prevail in having having the court force your wife to co-apply for the mortgage when you can easily carry it yourself and you intend to occupy the home?

Question: Why do you want her on the mortgage?

...should not unnecessarily delay getting to a final divorce by chasing trivial or non-essential matters."

Another wording could be to say "let her go". A lot of this is you struggling to let it go - detach.

That's hard. We have people on the detaching board spending months to break away.

It's hard to lose someone you love.

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« Reply #82 on: November 18, 2020, 08:41:29 AM »

So, this morning I spent 1.5hrs on the phone to the bank applying for the single name mortgage, which has gone fine as expected. The bank said that they would need written confirmation from my W's solicitor to ensure that she has been advised correctly such is the rarity of someone being on the title deed but not named on the mortgage. I thought that was interesting.

Whilst I was on the phone to the bank, I received an email from my W stating that she would not agree to ANY changes in the mortgage (this is the mortgage that is expiring in 10 days time, and the one that she said she would categorically NOT be joint signature to a replacement mortgage last week) without first discussing with a mediator. Odd since she claims NOT being on the joint mortgage was the advice that she had received from her solicitor.



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« Reply #83 on: November 18, 2020, 08:48:48 AM »

I believe there is a balance... too many legal people will make her feel controlled, too few will make her feel vulnerable. I have spent 20+ years matching her in verbal arguments... until I didn't. Acting to "sort this out" or "free her" will likely just result in her paranoia/vulnerability/fear/anger all being triggered. By taking the legal step 1 step ahead i.e upping the anti, I will be pouring fuel onto the fire that's burning at my feet.

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« Reply #84 on: November 18, 2020, 09:04:36 AM »

Acting to "sort this out" or "free her" will likely just result in her paranoia/vulnerability/fear/anger all being triggered. By taking the legal step 1 step ahead i.e upping the anti, I will be pouring fuel onto the fire that's burning at my feet.

There's obviously a balance to be had.  However, I question a strategy that allows the mentally ill person who cannot make logical decisions be in charge of the path forward.

My H spent a lot of years post-divorce trying really really hard not to trigger his ex.  We finally realized that our attention was being put in the wrong place.  We should have been - and now are - protecting SD and ourselves.  We've put in place lots of boundaries to keep her crazy away from us.   We discovered she has about the same number and intensity of episodes as when we were trying not to trigger her.  It's just now she has them away from us.

You're still thinking like her husband. 
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« Reply #85 on: November 18, 2020, 10:11:36 AM »

I agree with what others have posted here. It is a valid approach push forward on what is right without expectations related to what is or is not going to happen next. I'm in closeout, but it's same-old-same-old.

We learned with mine that we had to respond quickly and firmly with the facts and then step back. If that didn't work, we had to provide more facts without changing our position. My ex no longer has an attorney, so that makes things a little harder, but we've gotten through several recent flare-ups where I maintained my position. If we had gone to court, my attorney said it would be a very short hearing, indeed, with or without his own attorney. I don't know if my ex knows or agrees with that, but he did back off.

My closeout is down to waiting on final approval on one issue, and then I'm done. I can't imagine what that will feel like.

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« Reply #86 on: November 18, 2020, 10:38:05 AM »

Whilst I was on the phone to the bank, I received an email from my W stating that she would not agree to ANY changes in the mortgage (this is the mortgage that is expiring in 10 days time, and the one that she said she would categorically NOT be joint signature to a replacement mortgage last week) without first discussing with a mediator. Odd since she claims NOT being on the joint mortgage was the advice that she had received from her solicitor.

It sounds like she is trying to use something that is important to you (mortgage) to get what she wants (new mediator).  Didn't you agree to a new mediator already?  Also, what are your options if she sticks to above statement, and blocks your new mortgage?
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« Reply #87 on: November 18, 2020, 10:55:55 AM »

Am I?

Or is it that I suspect that if I up the anti she will fall into the arms of a helpful junkyard lawyer where bad things will happen.

My guess is she is following the advice of others, and those others have and continue to lead her down rabbit warrens whilst I sit at the top on my little stool waiting for her to come back up again.

I don't believe that I am not acting because of her emotions, more factoring in what her reaction to my action is likely to be and how that's likely to benefit or hinder me in getting where I want to be. You don't walk past a wasps nest if there's a good simple route round it.

NL
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« Reply #88 on: November 18, 2020, 11:02:32 AM »

It sounds like she is trying to use something that is important to you (mortgage) to get what she wants (new mediator). 

BINGO! Agree, although not 100% sure on the reasoning. I think she thinks that I am going to lock up her capital and freeze the D... not my intention at all.

Blocking the new mortgage would be interesting, since she hasn't provided another alternative other than selling the house which I have been advised she is not allowed to do. So I believe it would come down to my lawyer sending her lawyer a stiff letter saying "You can't not join a joint mortgage and not allow him to have a single name mortgage... pick one."

I provided her with the information she requested proving out how it was possible on a capital and affordability basis that I could buy her out of the house given the proposal I put forward to her.
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« Reply #89 on: November 18, 2020, 11:08:27 AM »


Hey...to your thought about not upping the ante, so she won't get a junkyard dog L...

If you go that route, you are leaving things up to her...you are reacting to her...so in a sense, you are putting her in charge of the divorce decisions.  (or at least deferring to her...I can't do x because I fear she will do y).

From a big picture point of view...be the captain of your own ship.  Do your best to run your agenda..let her react to you.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #90 on: November 18, 2020, 12:07:00 PM »

I received an email from my W stating that she would not agree to ANY changes in the mortgage (this is the mortgage that is expiring in 10 days time, and the one that she said she would categorically NOT be joint signature to a replacement mortgage last week) without first discussing with a mediator.

This comment and others that you have made sound like she is seeing the mediator as more of an arbitrator. I've thought this before.

I don't think suggesting collaborative divorce needs to be upping the ante - it could be sold as a more fair and level playing field for her and structure and a timeline for you.  

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« Reply #91 on: November 18, 2020, 12:36:02 PM »

Question: Why do you want her on the mortgage?

Question: Why do you want her on the mortgage?
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« Reply #92 on: November 18, 2020, 03:29:11 PM »

I can see the pros and cons of her being on the mortgage from my perspective. I suppose it sits better from a financial guys point of view where assets and liabilities are packaged together. The house was bought with a mortgage 10years ago, that should have been both of our responsibilities to service and more importantly be concerned about. There is a process for extracting ones self from these joint decisions, walking out, barking “put it on the market” is not it. She may have rejected “this life” but there are 4 others here who have not. If she wants to decouple herself from adult choices she has made as an adult there’s a process for that.

I’ve gotten comfortable with the risks I face being sole name on the mortgage hence going through the formal application  process today.
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« Reply #93 on: November 18, 2020, 03:35:29 PM »

This comment and others that you have made sound like she is seeing the mediator as more of an arbitrator. I've thought this before.

I don't think suggesting collaborative divorce needs to be upping the ante - it could be sold as a more fair and level playing field for her and structure and a timeline for you.  



I don’t disagree with this. My W recruits people. I wonder if she felt she couldn’t recruit the previous mediator or had done things to discredit herself in front of the previous mediator. She wants to wipe the slate clean.

Whether the new mediator is going to wonder how we got to this point and what occurred along the track I don’t know... and what the response would be if they ask W!
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« Reply #94 on: November 18, 2020, 03:53:55 PM »

FF,

I think there’s a difference between following blindly, reacting and being observant.

There’s times when I have gone in my own direction, there’s times when I’ve watched my W from a distance to see what she’s doing and there’s times when I’ve moved to where she’s told me to be.

I’m not sure in all circumstances it’s prudent to ignore the person waving the gun around.

I’m not allowing  her to determine the outcomes, I’m working with the choices she’s making on how we get there. If she was able to determine the outcomes (and I was letting her do that) I doubt she would be frustrated with the path she was on. I really can’t help her lack of satisfaction with the outcomes of her own choices.
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« Reply #95 on: November 18, 2020, 04:00:09 PM »

Let go of her.  All these things you worry about are your worries and yours alone. The minute you stop thinking about these issues, they end.

No one is keeping a list.

Whether the new mediator is going to wonder how we got to this point and what occurred along the track I don’t know... and what the response would be if they ask W!

The new moderator won't care. He/she may ask what you would like to see different in the new moderation to get a read on you guys, but that's going to be it. The previous history is moot.

If you can't settle in mediation, this goes to collaboration or trial, all the mediation history is moot.

I think you will find it amazing about how little the family court system cares about any of the transactions between you and you wife, or who was punctual, or who is smarter, or who has the moral high ground.

This is no different that the family store being foreclosed. The creditors just sell the assets - the gold watch gets sold and melted down - no one really cares about the story.

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« Reply #96 on: November 19, 2020, 01:06:39 AM »

I think there’s a difference between following blindly, reacting and being observant.

There’s times when I have gone in my own direction, there’s times when I’ve watched my W from a distance to see what she’s doing and there’s times when I’ve moved to where she’s told me to be.

I’m not sure in all circumstances it’s prudent to ignore the person waving the gun around.

I’m not allowing  her to determine the outcomes, I’m working with the choices she’s making on how we get there. If she was able to determine the outcomes (and I was letting her do that) I doubt she would be frustrated with the path she was on. I really can’t help her lack of satisfaction with the outcomes of her own choices.

all of this outsmarting your wife, three dimensional chess, serves the purpose of staving off narcissistic injury (ego wound), abandonment depression, and, ultimately, the detaching process.

Excerpt
I'm not sure why you've decided to make up a reasonable narrative for my W and re-framed me as being unreasonable and condescending

im not sure why you dont see it. everyone is telling you this.

youre playing games, NL.

the problem is, navigating family court isnt a game. the real life consequences, for everyone involved, arent a game. whats coming, if you dont get serious about the reality you are facing, isnt a game.

i dont think anyone, long involved here, takes any joy in trying to tell you what you are doing, have been doing, at every step, is not only destructive to your family unit, which is changing, but self destructive. you are being the guy they write about in these books about high conflict divorces. its not too late to take another path.

you still have time to turn it around, to reach for the best case scenario for you and your daughters.
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« Reply #97 on: November 19, 2020, 02:46:06 AM »

Let go of her.  All these things you worry about are your worries and yours alone. The minute you stop thinking about these issues, they end.

Please can you elaborate on this Skip. What worries are mine alone?

I see things being resolved / understood / made comfortable by thought / planning / strategy (which you refer to as worry and I think OR describes as playing games). I stop thinking / planning / strategising when I start implementing... so yes you're right, my "worries" go away because after a productive period of consideration I take mitigating action.

I'm not sure I get what you're suggesting I do? Care less, be less considered? Because in reading some of the comments of people who have actually personally gone through this and come out the other side, they seem to be suggesting that considered action is necessary.

If you guys think that I am manoeuvring to keep my W in the relationship you're MASSIVELY OFF BASE. I'm manoeuvring to remove the things that me and the kids hold dear out of the huge bonfire my W believes she is entitled to burn in the garden. She can torch her own things, hell she can even put herself on there if she wishes.
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« Reply #98 on: November 19, 2020, 05:55:33 AM »

  I'm manoeuvring to remove the things that me and the kids hold dear out of the huge bonfire my W believes she is entitled to burn in the garden. She can torch her own things, hell she can even put herself on there if she wishes.

Now I think that what you are doing might...might make sense.  I've been scratching my head for a while.

Can you give an example or two of how your path keeps your things out of the bonfire?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #99 on: November 19, 2020, 07:42:37 AM »

1) Not rolling over and accepting (because she says and doesn't want) that the house (we love) has to be sold.

2) Not accepting (because she said) that I should be a Disney dad. Not validating her belief that the company I work for has NOT said they will facilitate 50/50 parenting by allowing me to work from home post covid 50% of the time... despite written confirmation as best a large corporate could.

3) By not mindlessly upping the resolution costs (double the price of initial mediator), or burning the work the initial mediator has done and prepared (financial disclosure) such that keeping the house is no longer possible.

4) By not entertaining her fanciful ideas that there is no expectation that she attempt to mitigate her own circumstances and replace income or take benefits she is entitled to such that affording a higher mortgage is not possible.

5) Historically by changing the relationship that I had with our children such that it eliminated the toxic impacts of me balancing my W's chaotic parenting with overly strict "bad cop" parenting... moving to a more neutral parenting stance with consistent boundaries. Differentiated my parenting from her parenting accepting that co-parenting was not possible and parallel parenting was likely to be more successful for me and the kids.

6) Pushing back when things were removed from the house... my things. Including refuting her lies about how and when said things came to be in the house.

7) Preventing her from selling the house in Dec17, Jun18, Dec19 with no financial agreement in place. With no financial agreement in place, no transactions and subsequent use of funds are protected.

8) Encouraged truth telling to avoid situations (which happened anyway since the truth was not told yet came out anyway) where more damage was done to the children. On a personal level I am utterly honest with the children, not necessarily because I think it's because children should be raised, but I know how much ANY dishonesty would be to them at this critical time. If I can't bare to be honest about it, I shouldn't be doing it. I don't have that luxury at the moment hence (one of many reasons) dating is off the table.

I accept that some of the things (people and possessions) will be damaged or lost, but I will not have my life and my kids lives ransacked for the fruitless objectives of a woman trying on new hats for size.
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« Reply #100 on: November 19, 2020, 07:44:47 AM »

Question: Why do you want her on the mortgage?
Question: Why do you want her on the mortgage?

NW, it might help to look at the example in discussion.

Question: Why do you want her on the mortgage?

What possible material reason do you want her on the refinance of the house that you are living in and plan to keep?

You are very upset about this.

You described the end of the term of the current mortgage as catastrophic and with the likelihood that the bank would foreclose on the property.

That was an exaggeration and never really a likelihood. You have a good payment record and a lot of equity in the house.

You believe she is morally wrong and too irrational to comprehend for not wanting to sign the mortgage without mediating the issue.

I could see an attorney telling her that you need to prove to her that the "estate" will be compromised if she doesn't sign the mortgage.

You believe the bank sees this as irregular behavior on her part.  I suspect they are requesting a documentation to be sure that this is not a irregular move by you.

All in all... what is all this emotional energy about? Can you answer that?

Why don't you see this for what it is?

When she had problems with the children, you stood back and watched her flounder in the water with some satisfaction.

She is now watching you flounder in the water with some satisfaction.

I think you are slightly better off to have the house financed separately now.
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« Reply #101 on: November 19, 2020, 08:02:09 AM »

Excerpt
What possible material reason do you want her on the refinance of the house that you are living in and plan to keep?

What if she were to argue that she was entitled to half the proceeds of the sale of the house yet left me liable for the mortgage?

Me buying her out of the house is not a forgone conclusion and is reliant on the deal WE agree on... or a court. Since financial negotiations are not concluded me presumptuously making such preparations as to do that would be foolish. Several months ago I suggested we make such preparations and was met with outrage by her for that as well. what would have made utter rational sense would be for us to have maxed the mortgage in joint names, she takes the money and buys something else and then we remove her name from the mortgage and title deeds at the same time. The bank might not have been thrilled about that but likely swallowed it. That was rejected.

Excerpt
You described the end of the term of the current mortgage as catastrophic and with the likelihood that the bank would foreclose on the property.

- Mortgage default is a credit negative situation
- I am an FCA (SEC equiv) registered individual dealing directly with client money, I am required to attest quarterly that I do not have any CCJ (county court judgements) or financial conduct issues pending against my name... in essence I am supposed to be a financial (and social) fit and proper person.
- Please could you tell me where I actually said that the bank would foreclose on the property and used the term "catastrophic"? I don't remember using that term and that would be a lie. The bank is perfectly entitled to act in a reasonable way to recover the principle amount it is owed plus reasonable charges. Selling the property is in it's toolbox of weapons to do that. I do not want to be at the mercy of the bank in any way shape or form and have expressed this to my W.
-  Inaction could materially impact our ability to borrow in the future which is highly pertinent to me since I need to max out to potentially buy her out of this property. I am not an expert of the retail credit rating agencies nor what type of entry this default might add to my credit history. I'd imagine (based on nothing) that the credit scores are pretty merciless.

Excerpt
She is now watching you flounder in the water with some satisfaction.

Who's floundering? I applied for the mortgage and was approved.
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« Reply #102 on: November 19, 2020, 08:15:11 AM »

1) Not rolling over and accepting (because she says and doesn't want) that the house (we love) has to be sold.

2) Not accepting (because she said) that I should be a Disney dad. Not validating her belief that the company I work for has NOT said they will facilitate 50/50 parenting by allowing me to work from home post covid 50% of the time... despite written confirmation as best a large corporate could.

3) By not mindlessly upping the resolution costs (double the price of initial mediator), or burning the work the initial mediator has done and prepared (financial disclosure) such that keeping the house is no longer possible.

4) By not entertaining her fanciful ideas that there is no expectation that she attempt to mitigate her own circumstances and replace income or take benefits she is entitled to such that affording a higher mortgage is not possible.

5) Historically by changing the relationship that I had with our children such that it eliminated the toxic impacts of me balancing my W's chaotic parenting with overly strict "bad cop" parenting... moving to a more neutral parenting stance with consistent boundaries. Differentiated my parenting from her parenting accepting that co-parenting was not possible and parallel parenting was likely to be more successful for me and the kids.

6) Pushing back when things were removed from the house... my things. Including refuting her lies about how and when said things came to be in the house.

7) Preventing her from selling the house in Dec17, Jun18, Dec19 with no financial agreement in place. With no financial agreement in place, no transactions and subsequent use of funds are protected.

8) Encouraged truth telling to avoid situations (which happened anyway since the truth was not told yet came out anyway) where more damage was done to the children. On a personal level I am utterly honest with the children, not necessarily because I think it's because children should be raised, but I know how much ANY dishonesty would be to them at this critical time. If I can't bare to be honest about it, I shouldn't be doing it. I don't have that luxury at the moment hence (one of many reasons) dating is off the table.

I accept that some of the things (people and possessions) will be damaged or lost, but I will not have my life and my kids lives ransacked for the fruitless objectives of a woman trying on new hats for size.

And...how does your apparent resistance/slow walking divorce (basically what appear to be delaying tactics) facilitate these things happening/coming true.

Note:  At first glance I don't disagree with things on your list (please hear that), what I'm still completely baffled by is the "methods" you appear to be using to achieve goals that we all seem to be agreeing on.


Perhaps Skip and others can tweak the wording of the following axiom.

Axiom:  The longer a divorce drags on and or more frustrated  a pwBPD becomes with the divorce process, the higher the likelihood of a junkyard dog lawyer being hired.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #103 on: November 19, 2020, 08:20:36 AM »

What if she were to argue that she was entitled to half the proceeds of the sale of the house yet left me liable for the mortgage?
 

Hey..I'm glad I'm talking to a finance guy.  Sometimes emotional issues cloud the words you would not normally use.

"half the proceeds" really wouldn't make sense to a court or a CPA (or other finance person)..so I wouldn't worry about her claiming that.

If she wanted half of the "net profit" of what you made as a couple on the house (even if it is sold to you), I think that is a reasonable expectation and even a reasonable thing for you to offer.

Would you worry about her asking for half of the Martian in the basement?  (no of course not)

So don't worry about her asking for other nonsensical things either...

 Virtual hug (click to insert in post) Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

Best,

FF
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« Reply #104 on: November 19, 2020, 10:17:28 AM »

"half the proceeds" really wouldn't make sense to a court or a CPA (or other finance person)..so I wouldn't worry about her claiming that.


Well I had to get comfy with that, did... and moved forward with a solution.
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« Reply #105 on: November 19, 2020, 10:41:03 AM »

And...how does your apparent resistance/slow walking divorce (basically what appear to be delaying tactics) facilitate these things happening/coming true.

Weird things happen given enough opportunity to happen. Being ready to seize the moment when it happens, when something lands on your plate is another thing. Knowing what you're looking to seize is yet another and knowing what you're accidentally letting go of is yet another.

I'm not protesting to be smart, and I've sure as hell done a lot of very very dumb things along the way. BUT, (and my W's OM is not the point here) whilst my W has been heavily focused on OM, I have been making hay, building relationships with the kids, learning about things, learning about divorce, writing here, learning about me and learning about parenting. She accidentally let go of rope... distracted. I snaffled a bit in whilst she was looking the other way.

Many of you place the blame of the slow paced divorce at my feet. I have thanked my wife many many times over the years for gifting me this time, time for the kids to grow older and bond more with me, time for me to change my parenting style even time to save money. Every time she has pushed (chaotically) to do the divorce I have participated and delivered the things I was told to do on time and in an orderly manner. Every time for no apparent reason it went away again.

Then Covid happened... now I'm a religious man, but to say that covid was the hand of God sent specifically for the purposes of changing my situation after 3 years of ground work would be a little arrogant, but here we are, and things look a lot different now than they did in Feb. Like I said at the beginning 'weird things happen given enough opportunity to happen'... and weird things have happened. My W might be very very very frustrated with these weird outcomes but to say that I planned them instigated them is a stretch. I've just been ready to catch opportunity as it passes me by.

NL
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« Reply #106 on: November 19, 2020, 11:00:17 AM »

Excerpt
Axiom:  The longer a divorce drags on and or more frustrated  a pwBPD becomes with the divorce process, the higher the likelihood of a junkyard dog lawyer being hired.

Is there a difference between being frustrated with me or being frustrated with herself... Initially I think of anger vs embarrassment/regret (shame). Of the most part I have NOT stopped her from getting a divorce, I have stopped her doing things that weren't okay and then typically a lawyer or informed person has later reinforced what I have said. So initially she might be angry with me and inclined to go to Junkyard lawyer but upon being told by a reasonable trusted individual she feels shame that she let herself down by thinking her initial proposal was good... thus inclined to want to go via mediation.

There's also a personal narrative to think about. She's a very religious person, her relationship with OM is also heavily wrapped up in religion (long story) so, to go to a junkyard lawyer requires her to abandon that persona and also abandon the view that God will guide her through this divorce and deliver her on the other side.

Junkyard always persists as a risk... always. BUT, I think there are things that I can do that makes junkyard more probable and actually permissible for her. Upping the number of lawyers in the room makes it permissible to arm herself with a Pitbull. Note she's seen a lawyer since Jan17... I first spoke to someone in Sep20 and that delay was intentional for a number of reasons.
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« Reply #107 on: November 19, 2020, 03:47:24 PM »

Upping the number of lawyers in the room makes it permissible to arm herself with a Pitbull.

Is this realistic thinking, NL?

What NL action made it permissible for her to have an affair?
What NL action made it permissible for her to file for divorce?
What NL action made it permissible for her to move out?
What NL action made it permissible for switch mediators?

It seems to me she that she doesn't transition is an orderly fashion - rather thing build up and she blows.

And then you react to the situation and what she gives you.

So its reasonable she could blow to a junkyard dog.
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« Reply #108 on: November 19, 2020, 05:08:35 PM »

I am divorced from a person without a pd. I spent an awful lot of time, like you, trying to predict how my ex would react to things I tried to do. Turns out, no matter how hard I tried to control the outcomes, it didn't work.  And I am VERY good at contingency planning and risk assessment. 

Your list of things that you managed to do with your planning has almost nothing to do with your planning.
1 (the house) - could have gotten the same results without a mediator.  Plus, honestly, the house isn't that important.  I say that as someone once DESPERATE to keep my kids from moving.  It was wasted energy.

2) (custody) - could have gotten the same results without a mediator.  You wasted your time trying to convince her you could WFH and care for the kids. 

3) (keeping costs down) - they are down so far, but you are no closer to divorce than you were, so who knows how much higher they will get.  The new mediator can start over.  Everything you've decided so far-----out.

4) (proving she can afford stuff) - Could have gotten the same result without a mediator.  You wasted your time trying to convince her of this (and she's still not convinced).

5) (better parenting) - You would have done this anyway.

6) (division of belongings) - this could have been decided in other ways.  There are rules for how to divvy up stuff.

7) (preventing her from selling the house) - doesn't it require your agreement?  Why would you need to bend over backwards to convince her?

8) (Encouraged truth telling) -  It's not your job to tell her what to disclose or not.  Unfortunately, as divorced parents in high conflict situations, our job is to pick up the pieces when they hurt the kids.

Most of us have been in your shoes.  We get where you are coming from, and we are pleading with you to take a breath and see the big picture.
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« Reply #109 on: November 19, 2020, 06:24:52 PM »

What are the biggest reasons you don't want to sell the house?  I know for me it was not wanting to deal with a move.  Fortunately I'm still here, so far.

If you feel a move is not good for the kids, the reality is that millions of kids move each year around the globe for a variety of reasons.  Often it's because the parents obtain work elsewhere.  Or the family has outgrown the house.  Or the schools are better elsewhere.  Or... the parents have divorced.  The point is that whatever the reasons, kids will do okay with a move.  You don't have to keep the kids in the same house.  You can parent the kids wherever you end up residing.  Your home is where you live.
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« Reply #110 on: November 19, 2020, 08:15:42 PM »


Many of you place the blame of the slow paced divorce at my feet. 

Speaking for myself...I don't think you understand the risk to you and your future of a slow paced divorce.   Perhaps you are starting to see it..perhaps.

I'll hush and let you work through Skip's intriguing questions.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #111 on: November 20, 2020, 03:08:28 AM »

1) What NL action made it permissible for her to have an affair?
2) What NL action made it permissible for her to file for divorce?
3) What NL action made it permissible for her to move out?
4) What NL action made it permissible for switch mediators?

1) That's a bit of a tricky one, she would argue that my "abusive" behaviour permitted her to have the relationship. In fact she argued that I put her in the vulnerable position where it could happen... she has verbalised that the OM relationship was my fault. On the flip side of this, at the time I had a bunch of choices but if I distil that down to 2 choices for ease of explanation it might be clearer... legitimise the new relationship which was supposedly my fault, walk away and say a) " Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post) happens, this is super groovy and it's all my fault" or b) "This is not okay, I'm standing for our marriage, but there is nothing okay about this OM relationship". Do you think she would have doubted for a second that the affair was okay in the slightest had I have taken route a)? In Jan this year she was asked by the child P why the D had taken so long, to which she responded she didn't think she had the rite to destroy other peoples lives. So yes, my actions have clearly placed not removed guilt from her which she has struggled with. Had I have removed the guilt (and it wasn't mine to remove or deal with) I would have permitted her to do (even more) as she pleased.

2) Her finding out that I had scraped her Whatsapp from our family computer seeing 18m of secret communication between her and OM. It was just the excuse she needed and ammo that OM used to "prove" I was who he said I was.

3) Me refusing to move into the playroom to work during covid. Prior to that she had tried to get me to move out and threatened to move out herself but backtracked when I called her on it. There was nothing wrong with me working in the kitchen and it especially suited me AND the kids since I was doing the majority of the home schooling and needed to keep an eye on the kids whilst working. This was the justification that "forced" her into taking action.

4) She's "free" now... she can do as she pleases and wants to exert that power and control. That's nothing I've permitted.

So in conclusion there's a bunch of actions or inactions I have taken which have sped up or slowed down the process. Some of her actions are as a result of anger and frustration, others are inaction because of a function of guilt. To say that I was fully conscious of my own actions permitting or not permitting behaviour is a step too far, some of it was purposeful, some not. For example I was purposeful in not endorsing the OM relationship and purposeful about not rescuing her by absolving that guilt for her. If she chose to be deceitful about seeing him and I inadvertently enabled it that was a different matter.

If I act "aggressively" in the divorce it permits her to act aggressively back. I'm not suggesting that she won't try and exert her control and new found "freedom" by going to the Junkyard Lawyer, that could totally happen. But I place 100% probability on that happening if I raise the bar myself in a bid to out manoeuvre her. There are periods where she pulls the rope, if I pull hard she pulls harder, if I stand and hold she eventually gives up. 
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« Reply #112 on: November 20, 2020, 03:17:09 AM »

What are the biggest reasons you don't want to sell the house?  I know for me it was not wanting to deal with a move.  Fortunately I'm still here, so far.

1) Kids love the house and are desperate to stay
2) It's an awesome home, great proportions inside and out, character, location
3) £45k stamp duty tax
4) 1100 sq ft unconverted barn - potential conversion
5) I've spent a lot of time and effort working on the house (months if not years) including renovating 16 sash windows

If it goes it goes, but I would like to exhaust all options before I let it go.
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« Reply #113 on: November 20, 2020, 03:17:45 PM »

1) Kids love the house and are desperate to stay
2) It's an awesome home, great proportions inside and out, character, location
3) £45k stamp duty tax
4) 1100 sq ft unconverted barn - potential conversion
5) I've spent a lot of time and effort working on the house (months if not years) including renovating 16 sash windows

If it goes it goes, but I would like to exhaust all options before I let it go.

Not from England, so I did a quick google search.  Does this mean you don't have to pay stamp duty taxes?

Excerpt
If you're buying your next home or buying a property valued at over £500,000 you would pay: no tax on the value of the property up to £125,000. 2% tax on the property value between £125,001 and £250,000. 5% tax on the property value between £250,001 and £550,000.
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« Reply #114 on: November 21, 2020, 04:17:06 AM »

At the moment if I were to buy a new house (or my W) then the first 500k is effectively free of stamp duty (purchase tax). The transaction has to be completed by the end of March. If I take my W off the deeds of my current home I don’t have to pay any stamp duty at all.
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