Amicable break up with hope of re-uniting in the future?

[desertsting]

My partner of 3 years has decided she wishes to move out and end the relationship.

She has, multiple times in the past, told me that she sees the relationship as 'not working' and that we are 'incompatible'. I believe myself to be in a more mentally-stable and emotionally mature stage of my life, and believe that fundamentally, our relationship is good. At least, an extremely solid base.

We have normal problems that I would expect of any relationship - ones that I would also expect to be able to communicate and work through. However, we do struggle to communicate as things I say can be spun around on me or totally misunderstood and I will spend longer trying to return to my original point than making progress on it.

On the occasions she has previously blamed 'the relationship' for states of unhappiness, she has entered 'fight or flight' mode and gone to stay with her Mum. I have always allowed this, using the opportunity for space to consider my wants and needs and, to an extent, allow her to 'come to her senses'. These occasions have never lasted more than one week, and I have always moved forward with an attitude of 'we are a team, we work together through these issues' and 'you cannot continue to put me in the position where I am frightened that you're ending things'.

I do consider these events to be along the lines of 'I hate you, don't leave me'. In a way, running away to seek re-assurance that I do infact love her. After a few days have gone by she will enter a mindset of 'I don't want to feel like this anymore'.

On this occasion, with a much shorter fuse, I called her bluff and told her that if she wanted to leave, she should 'get her things and F off' - very strongly worded and I do regret the phrasing. But, my stance is that I have continued to stand by this person for 3 years and accepted the flaws that come with her. However, the cycle repeats itself and naturally, makes me question whether I have a future with her. On this occasion, I saw no other alternative than to say 'go ahead'.

3 days into this episode, and she has moved into an apartment around the corner, owned by her Dad. It is unlikely to be a long-term solution. We are yet to separate our belongings, as I have asked for space in order to get my head together before we reconvene to discuss the logistics.

Yesterday, she acted emotionally and irrationally and it upset me a great deal. I called her out on it and told her I wouldn't continue to communicate with her while she spoke to me in that way. Thankfully, since then, she has granted my wish for space.

She is not officially diagnosed with BPD, though she believes she has it. I would also tend to agree that she matches with the majority of the symptoms, but not to a hugely extreme level.

Ultimately, while the separation is not what I want, I do believe it to be the best, or only possible outcome for the time being. She has not been on her own for longer than a few months since her teenage years. We did manage 3 years, whereas beforehand she had never managed longer than 2. I believe that in the last 3 years, I have taken steps to help her understand and begin to deal with her MH issues and potential BPD, but it has obviously not been enough.

My desire is for the separation to be as amicable as possible. I am rooting for her to use this time to tackle her issues head-on. In this event, I would be more than happy to consider trying again with her in the future.

My concern is that, I understand she will be having a torrid time in her mind as we continue through the separation. I'm having a hard enough time. I'm worried that she will cause irreparable damage on the way out as a way to make the split easier and justify it to herself.

In general, she is a tender person who hates conflict. Are there any steps I can take to minimise my own suffering during the separation and ensure that we do not end up as enemies?

TL:DR - I accept that my partner and I need to be apart for at least a period in order to focus on ourselves. I hope she will put the same effort into herself as I will myself, though I know this is out of my control.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[once removed]

its not clear to me, the outcome you want to see (you do say you dont want to separate but see the benefit in it).

part of it sounds like you are fed up, and mostly done.

part of it sounds like that, but you struggle with what her version of events, her narrative of the relationship will be.

part of it sounds like you want to reconcile, albeit in a healthier fashion.

correct me where im wrong, but been there  

if its the second? let it go. none of us really have any control over how an ex looks back at a breakup, and for what its worth, most of us, after grieving, tend to gain some semblance of balance.

if its the first or the third, or both?

be all in or all out. simpler said than done, i know, but in my experience, theres no other way to be.

what i mean by that, is that the status quo isnt working, and both of you are losing your love.

first and foremost, take her seriously when she says the two of you are incompatible, and by that, i mean, learn to understand, specifically, and as clearly as you can, what that means (from her perspective and from yours). because two people can love each other very much. they can be together a very long time. and they can, ultimately, be fundamentally broken and incompatible. people with bpd traits will go back and forth between extremes. youre the best person in the world and then the worst. you have to learn the balance between taking that seriously, and understanding the extremes your loved one lives in. but language like "we are incompatible" can be a different kettle of fish. think about it. it may not be obvious, and the two of you may see things very differently. has she ever been specific?

second, i see a lot of my approach in yours (and my own relationship was just shy of three years). you dont take a lot of  . at the same time, you get caught up in the minutia, in the moment (easy to do with a difficult loved one). walking on eggshells is not your idea of a good time.

and you arent wrong; you need thick skin, you need the willingness and ability to walk away, and you dont want to just submit to abuse. but its like loving someone with special needs. it takes grace, finesse, malevolence, and skill. you can learn this. it will likely make an enormous improvement.

lastly, and importantly, while anything from a cooling off period, all the way to a trial separation can be healthy, the two of you separating for days, a week, whatever, when conflict reaches a boiling point is probably, ultimately, not sustainable, and something you want to redirect into another(s) coping mechanism. it means that conflict never really get resolved, but swept under the rug, and the more you do it, the more one or both of you grieve the relationship and work past the reality of actually breaking up.

[desertsting]

Thank you very much for your considered and lengthy reply. I really do appreciate it.

its not clear to me, the outcome you want to see (you do say you dont want to separate but see the benefit in it).

I have always come at our problems from the point of view of 'we stick this out together, and we work through our problems' because that is my stance on what a committed relationship should be. However, I am indeed fed up with repeated short separations as they leave me feeling anxious and dent my confidence.

part of it sounds like that, but you struggle with what her version of events, her narrative of the relationship will be.

part of it sounds like you want to reconcile, albeit in a healthier fashion.

I do contest her view of how the relationship is, believing it to be fundamentally good and healthy - at least on my side. Trust has never been a problem for me, I believe her to be loyal and haven't had reason to question it. I also believe her to be a good person, whose judgement and ability to see things as clearly as me is clouded by her illness. I appreciate that I can't change her mind on this, or force her to see it my way - although I have tried to reinforce it.

At the moment, the closest of the 3 is that I'd like to reconcile. However, I accept that to quickly jump back in, if she was to show remorse or regret in the next weeks or months would likely be a mistake, unless there is evidence that she has made progress in the time since the separation and isn't asking from purely a place of loneliness.

I accept that in its current state, the relationship needs to end, but that doesn't mean I don't hope that this can change in the future.

be all in or all out. simpler said than done, i know, but in my experience, theres no other way to be.

I have written her a letter, setting out my feelings. It is not a letter of desperation, but I feel it's one of balance and fairness. I express my sadness that we've not been able to work through things together, apologised for my part in recent arguments. I have empathised with the battle raging within her head and told her I am proud of the progress she has made in the 3 years we've been together. I believe it's the first time in her 30 years that she has been able to self-reflect enough to acknowledge that she has a problem, and made steps to address it. I wish her well in her journey to find happiness.

first and foremost, take her seriously when she says the two of you are incompatible, and by that, i mean, learn to understand, specifically, and as clearly as you can, what that means (from her perspective and from yours). because two people can love each other very much. they can be together a very long time. and they can, ultimately, be fundamentally broken and incompatible. people with bpd traits will go back and forth between extremes. youre the best person in the world and then the worst. you have to learn the balance between taking that seriously, and understanding the extremes your loved one lives in. but language like "we are incompatible" can be a different kettle of fish. think about it. it may not be obvious, and the two of you may see things very differently. has she ever been specific?

The only specific she has ever been able to provide to back up the incompatibility is that we 'disagree on stuff'. Now as far as I'm concerned, we disagree on normal relationship things. What to watch, what to do at the weekend, whether I've done my chores to a standard she is happy with. She says she can feel taken for granted if I do not help around the house.

She has used examples of previous relationships where there was 'no conflict, no disagreement'. I have told her that I care enough about my own, and her feelings, and the growth of our relationship that I deem it far healthier for me to be able to bring up things that I wish to be improved.

second, i see a lot of my approach in yours (and my own relationship was just shy of three years). you dont take a lot of  Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post). at the same time, you get caught up in the minutia, in the moment (easy to do with a difficult loved one). walking on eggshells is not your idea of a good time.

It is difficult, but I also know the importance of my own happiness, and recently it has taken a knock. I believe I could be happy with her, but recognise only with some self-reflection on her part and a desire to make further progress. I have read that setting boundaries is important to pwBPD and, though badly worded, my 'get your things and F off' was in response to her threatening another of her short-term separations.

but its like loving someone with special needs. it takes grace, finesse, malevolence, and skill. you can learn this. it will likely make an enormous improvement.

Please help me with where to start here. I used to be a temper driven, hot-headed person before I met her, but having learned from past experiences, managed to get away from this to a more logical way of thinking. However, logic rarely works with her. I have always been willing to put in the effort to improve my ability to react to these situations in a way that is healthier for her, and me.

it means that conflict never really get resolved, but swept under the rug, and the more you do it, the more one or both of you grieve the relationship and work past the reality of actually breaking up.

I totally agree. Many issues, that again, I believe to be 'normal relationship stuff' (the chores, regularity of intimacy, trust) have resulted in conversations that haven't progressed past a point of misunderstanding or black and white thinking on her part. My desire to avoid conflict where possible has often led to things being swept under the rug.

[desertsting]

She has softened in the last days having acted emotionally and irrationally for the days before that.

She was meant to collect the bulk of her things yesterday before returning with family to help move some bigger items today.

I made myself scarce yesterday, and received multiple messages along the lines of:

'I will come soon'
'I will come when I've been shopping'
'I will come now, not sure if you're home'

She text multiple timed during the day,  even asking if I was free for a call - despite saying there was 'nothing left to talk about' earlier in the week.

I kept things amicable and business like, saying I would come home as she was getting her last things in order to say goodbye.

Her demeanour yesterday was much different, and suggested uncertainty on her part.

When I returned to the apartment, she had taken very little - moved some things around.

It feels very much as though she has pushed one button too far and, having called her bluff, I have forced her hand in going through with something she is unsure if she wants.

I'm extremely anxious about the day ahead and any support or advice will be much appreciated, thank you.

[grinandbearit]

Hi desertsession. I don't have any advice for you but I support the moves you are making and your level-headed (at least mostly) way of making them. I'm reading this thread with interest because my situation with my uBPD live-in partner has a lot of similarities to your situation, and just today we finally agreed upon a move-out date for him. "Agreed" is perhaps not the best term since I chose the date and he agitatedly pulled out a previous Notice to Vacate I had given him (yes, we've been through this twice before now) and hurriedly changed the dates, signed it, and had me sign.

My feelings about our r/s and my hope that we could make things work if we each take time and space apart to do some personal reflection, healing, and learning sound a lot like the ones you describe. My worries that he will simply continue to blame me and paint me black as an excuse to move on without doing any work on himself also sound like the sentiments you express. He already asked me if I wanted the many photos, cards, and mementos I gave him over our nearly five years together (nearly four living together), and I expressed that since they are his, I don't want them. He replied that he will burn them. I know that this is rashness, hurt, and immaturity talking, and I didn't rise to the bait, but it still stung as he knew it would. Also like you, I know that I cannot control whatever story he chooses to tell himself, and the only work I can guarantee will get done is my own on myself. That doesn't mean that I won't hold a kernel of hope that he'll make the effort and begin to see things more rationally with time and balance.

In short, I'm here simply to say that you're not alone, that you're taking rational and brave steps to benefit both your partner and yourself in the short and long term, and that I'll be following your story as it unfolds--as much as you decide to share of it, anyway. Thanks for your post.

[desertsting]

Re: grinandbearit. Thank you for your message of support, I hope you'll find my DM incase you'd like to share your journey with me on a more regular basis and we may be able to help each other through this.

An update, today she collected her remaining belongings from our apartment. I told her that I would be out during this, as she was bringing her Mum and Brother to help and I felt this would have been a difficult situation for me to be in. I said that if she wanted to let me know when she was collecting her last things, and alone, I would be willing to return in order to say 'goodbye'. I thought the finality of this was important so that she knows that this is different from our previous short separations.

It seemed to me that she was frightened by this finality as she replied with 'I've got a lot to do, so don't bother'. I'm learning every day not to take statements like this personally.

I waited until she had left, at which point she divulged she will be keeping the key until the tenancy agreements etc. are resolved. I deem this to be unnecessary, as she has now left our home to me. Instead of falling into a disagreement about this, I'll email our letting agents in the morning to inform them that she has left, and to arrange retrieving her key.

She seems to wish to talk 'when I'm ready' about the tenancy agreements and final monies, though I am confident that this can be finalised through the letting agency and I don't feel that I need to take any money from her at this point. She owes me half of an outstanding utility bill, but I would be glad to write this off on the understanding that I will receive the full security deposit upon leaving the apartment.

It is interesting to me that she wants to discuss this, but wasn't willing to hear my goodbye.

---

There have been further developments in the time I've written this post, but I have had an exhausting day so will reflect on the more recent events and update tomorrow.

Thanks all for reading.

[desertsting]

I have written her a letter, setting out my feelings. It is not a letter of desperation, but I feel it's one of balance and fairness. I express my sadness that we've not been able to work through things together, apologised for my part in recent arguments. I have empathised with the battle raging within her head and told her I am proud of the progress she has made in the 3 years we've been together. I believe it's the first time in her 30 years that she has been able to self-reflect enough to acknowledge that she has a problem, and made steps to address it. I wish her well in her journey to find happiness.

I am pleased to report that my letter was found during the move, as I was worried it might not be.

I also received a reply, via text. While it was the most positive communication we've had all week, given that her actions are often impulsive, childish and carried out without much thought, I think the care, thought and overall meaning that went into my letter deserved a longer response time.

Thank you for your letter.

Unfortunately the feeling I get from it, the understanding of how much I mean / meant to you, has come far too late. Actions speak louder than words and I’m so sad to say that the inaction caused me to feel that you didn’t appreciate me at all in the last few months.

My inaction was pulling back in self-preservation after she said she didn't love me anymore. When she says that actions speak louder than words, my actions over 3 years have been to stick with her, help her to seek help, and in this case... write a 5 page letter and not a long text.
 

Though you may not believe me, I am heartbroken too. Today was very tough - but I’ve been putting on a brave face.

Knowing and remembering what we had at the start is hard, I just wish we could have kept that up but I know it was a honeymoon phase and a very different time in our lives.

I am sorry for my part in the breakdown of our relationship in terms of the issues with trust and repeated threats to leave, perhaps the first time I should have gone through with it and we wouldn’t be where we are now. I’m going to continue to work on my mental health with some time to myself.

I took positives out of this section. The acknowledgement that she's also hurting, which hasn't been apparent this week with her emotional and impulsive behaviour, and a small apology for her trust issues. Also, the promise to spend some time by herself. Though this remains to be seen, I'm pleased that the intent is there.

However, the 'looking back and feeling sad about how it turned sour' is not a true reflective state, with a view to improving her relationships in the future.

You may not believe me when I say I hope you’re okay, I know you’re probably hurting a lot but I also hope there’s a part of you that feels some relief, or knew that this was coming and in some way agree it’s for the best. I want you to be happy as much as I want myself to be.

I’d hate to never speak again but if that’s what you need, I’ll respect that.

Again, to take the positives, an acknowledgement that I'm hurting. This section shows that I mean a lot to her, and is maybe worried about the finality of this situation.

Overall, while taking the positives, I don't feel that this is a response that matches the effort and reflection of my letter. I guess when hearing a new song for the first time, it takes repeated listens for the message to sink in. I hope that she'll return to my letter in future moments of reflection, or that its contents will remain in her mind for a time and allow her to ruminate.

I'd like to know if anybody else has an opinion on the contents of her reply.

[once removed]

I do contest her view of how the relationship is, believing it to be fundamentally good and healthy - at least on my side.

isnt this the definition of conflict?

when in conflict, inherently, both parties do not see eye to eye, and they tend to see their side as clean.

resolving conflict, if possible, begins with really understanding where the other person is coming from, and then moving toward solutions.

Trust has never been a problem for me

people with bpd traits have inherent trust issues. it is a very different view of the world. its unfortunate, but to love someone with, and be in a relationship with, someone with bpd traits, its important to face with eyes wide open.

I hope that she'll return to my letter in future moments of reflection, or that its contents will remain in her mind for a time and allow her to ruminate.

I'd like to know if anybody else has an opinion on the contents of her reply.

take her letter at face value. they are the words of someone who has at least partially grieved the relationship, does not feel heard, and has determined it is best to walk away.

it is rare - very rare - that breakup letters are read as intended, or that they come off as we intend them, and that is not unique to a relationship with someone with bpd traits, but two people that are on very different pages.

as to why she is avoiding in depth discussions, this is very common. it is a big emotional lift, not fun for either party, and she may feel either not ready, or that there is little point, or both.

my point in all of this: if you want her back, i dont know if "calling her bluff" is a helpful approach.

you seem to be reading into this that its not really what she wants, and that tough love will make that clearer. her actions, from where im sitting, indicate the opposite. if you want to reconcile, switch gears.

[desertsting]

you seem to be reading into this that its not really what she wants, and that tough love will make that clearer. her actions, from where im sitting, indicate the opposite. if you want to reconcile, switch gears.

Thank you. Please help me to understand what a better approach to this situation, from my side, might look like.

[once removed]

truth be told upfront: it is possible it is too late. thats always a possibility when trying to reverse a breakup; i dont want to give false hope.

what im going to say wont immediately sound terribly helpful, because there are not a lot of overt "get her back" style moves you can play, or that would be wise to play.

the bottom line is that the two singlemost important things you can do are:

1. stop the current approach
2. learn/understand where she is coming from, and, if given the opportunity, make her feel heard.

to do that, you will need to tackle, and i encourage you to do so in an in depth way here, how the relationship broke down, how it got to this point. that will also be essential in the event you reconcile, if you want to stay together.

if you can do that, and she can see it, it will be the single most attractive thing to her that you can possibly do. but it is not something that you can fake, and it is not something you should try to go out of your way to "prove" in order to win her back. in other words, dont beat her over the head with how you get it, send a bunch of apologies, try to force heartfelt talks where you profess a lot of thoughtful words, that kind of thing. i see that happen all the time.

number one, thats not necessarily really getting it, it comes off as defensive and not hearing the other person, but number two, its likely all she will feel is vindicated; too little, too late.

so while there isnt a lot in your immediate power to do (what not to do is more important), odds are pretty likely that at some point, her resentment is going to come back out, and she will want to vent it in some form (shes kinda been doing that but it also sounds like she wants space for now). it remains to be seen whether she is past the point of no return in her grief, but thats not the same thing as being emotionally past it, and when thats the case, there is always a chance.

the good news is that when and if that happens, all you have to do is listen. really listen. actively listen. not be defensive or dismissive. not argue. reflect back what youre hearing (if appropriate). ask validating questions (if appropriate).

this will be hugely important in not only that situation, but everything i am talking about when it comes to understanding her perspective and how the relationship broke down: https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy

i get, believe me, that the problems in the relationship are not all yours, and you certainly do not want to make the case to her that they are. you have a perspective, and its a valid one, and she has a perspective, and its a valid one. and the problem is that your two perspectives are at odds, and the only way to reconcile them is to begin to see them as she does, as well as how an outside perspective does, and figure out how to marry the three.

there is also a part of you that isnt so sure about staying in the relationship, especially as is. thats important, and i know first hand how that can kind of go out the window when youre on the receiving end of a breakup. looking at this from every side, really breaking down what broke down the relationship will also give you perspective on whether this is something you want to, or can save.

so, after reading the listening with empathy article, i would encourage you to start exploring the following things:

She has, multiple times in the past, told me that she sees the relationship as 'not working' and that we are 'incompatible'.

at what point in the relationship did this start? was there anything that seems to have led up to it? were there particular things that occurred when she made these claims during your relationship?

I believe myself to be in a more mentally-stable and emotionally mature stage of my life,

do you mean compared to her, or in general? where is she in her life? any possibility she feels insecure over this?

However, we do struggle to communicate as things I say can be spun around on me or totally misunderstood and I will spend longer trying to return to my original point than making progress on it.

while i think everyone here can vouch for this, and it isnt what broke you up, specifically, you will benefit enormously from learning the communication tools here, for so many reasons.

These occasions have never lasted more than one week, and I have always moved forward with an attitude of 'we are a team, we work together through these issues' and 'you cannot continue to put me in the position where I am frightened that you're ending things'.

this is a strong move. the running off would be something you would ideally want to nip in the bud should you reconcile. how did she respond in the past?

Yesterday, she acted emotionally and irrationally and it upset me a great deal. I called her out on it and told her I wouldn't continue to communicate with her while she spoke to me in that way.

what happened? what was said?

while this might in many cases be a strong move, it could also present the sort of opportunity im talking about to listen, and make her feel heard. its appropriate (and can be helpful) to wind things down if shes losing it on you or speaking abusively, but in the current circumstances, a more subtle approach may help. but the details matter a lot.

I have taken steps to help her understand and begin to deal with her MH issues and potential BPD, but it has obviously not been enough.

can you say more about what this has entailed?

Her: Thank you for your letter.

Unfortunately the feeling I get from it, the understanding of how much I mean / meant to you, has come far too late. Actions speak louder than words and I’m so sad to say that the inaction caused me to feel that you didn’t appreciate me at all in the last few months.

You: My inaction was pulling back in self-preservation after she said she didn't love me anymore. When she says that actions speak louder than words, my actions over 3 years have been to stick with her, help her to seek help, and in this case... write a 5 page letter and not a long text.

take what she says here at face value, and this is why i warn that listening and showing that you get it is not about confessing how horrible youve been (im assuming you didnt do that in the letter) and how you "see the light"...because thats the response youll get. words, 5 pages or otherwise, will get you nowhere.

now, this is pretty important. what inaction? what pulling back? what happened when she said she didnt love you anymore? this is an enormously significant part of what you are going to need to break down.

i encourage you to reread that post, with her letter, and your perspective on it, as if you were a neutral third party, the best you can. it is the clearest possible illustration of what different pages the two of you are on.

i know i asked a lot of questions. take them on (or not) at your own approach.

my own take on all of this: it sounds like a fairly typical slow breakdown of a relationship, not unlike my own. it isnt clear what the persisting issues were - partly because im hearing your side of it and not hers, and partly, significantly no doubt, that shes not the best at communicating what the issues were as she saw them (this is not uncommon for a person with bpd traits, and its why the skills and tools taught here are so vital) - but it is clear that there were persisting, unresolved issues that broke down the relationship over time. it is very telling that she suggests you might have felt relief and seen this coming. it means that for some period, she has been grieving, and coming to see a breakup as inevitable, and she assumes you have felt the same because she sees it as that obvious.

it is clear from her words in that letter, and in your words about pulling away, her saying she didnt love you, that things finally came to a head more recently and blew up (what is not clear but very important is what exactly transpired). the "f this, then leave" response was not some fatal mistake that if you could do it over, would have saved your relationship. at best, not doing that might have only delayed the breakup. it did, i suspect, cause a short term over reaction on her end (not important), and push her to follow through with what she had been considering doing (very important). it was her "over the edge", but importantly, although you may regret it, i suspect it was yours, too.

your letter was not heard, especially the way you intended. its okay, and it didnt hurt your chances here, or anything. those sorts of letters never are heard, and weve all written them. when two people breaking up are on such different pages, it just comes off as once again stating our perspective and not hearing the other persons. it is both good and bad that she didnt argue any of the points. good in that theres no resentment or pushback, so nothing you said touched any nerves or anything like that. bad in that it indicates shes letting go of the need to be heard (alternatively, its possible she barely read it). it mostly just means its not an approach you want to take again.

and now the two of you are doing the awkward dance of trying to be amicable, on very different pages, with very different resentments, and you are conflicted, and she is grieving though it is not clear how far into that process she is.

what do you think?

[desertsting]

Incredible, articulate and thought-provoking response, once removed. Thank you.

Excerpt
She has, multiple times in the past, told me that she sees the relationship as 'not working' and that we are 'incompatible'.

at what point in the relationship did this start? was there anything that seems to have led up to it? were there particular things that occurred when she made these claims during your relationship?

3 months in, she wrote me a letter saying that she didn't feel that she was right for me, asking how she could ever compare to my ex of 6 years (I was on my own for 8 months after this, and felt ready to give again by the end).

Her previous relationship was one of 2 years. They bought a house together, but soon after, he told HER that he didn't love her anymore. I wonder if in their 2 years, he'd not been as willing to try to communicate his feelings or try and show the empathy that I have, and by this point that had started to wear him down.

It was during their break-up that we began to talk. One occasion I remember vividly (as it makes me think of now) was an Instagram story she shared, looking upset sat on the stairs - a bit like the 'feel like pure **** just want him back' meme. Looking back, it was obviously an attempt to seek validation from others, or a response from the ex.

I remember, despite not really knowing her at this point, replying to it and suggesting that she should take it down, that it wasn't sending the right message, and that she could talk to me if she wanted. I feel like I was the only one to do this, instead of messaging her just with 'are you OK?' and that it resonated with her.

It seemed clear that she had ruled out ever reconciling with him, due to the stress he put her through with getting back out of the mortgage. Over the last 3 years, he has occasionally tried to reach out to her, but she's always been open about it and swatted him away like a fly.

I'm aware that I could potentially be classed as a re-bound. However, I'd argue that the fact we made 3 years (her longest ever relationship) would say that we have definitely had something genuine and real, even if I can see that it was born from a place of me 'saving her from heartbreak'.

My best answer to this would be, at a guess, that she has said these things when she feels misunderstood by somebody so close to her (me).

Excerpt
I believe myself to be in a more mentally-stable and emotionally mature stage of my life,

do you mean compared to her, or in general? where is she in her life? any possibility she feels insecure over this?

Compared to her, I believe myself to be more emotionally mature, objective, stable. But I guess that is easy to say about somebody with BPD. She is 2 years older than me, and in some senses I am immature (not so good with money, like to stay up late playing video games).

She turned 30 in October, which I believe could be a very big factor in feeling insecure about where she is going and what she is doing with her life. I think she relies on 'the next big thing' to make her happy (new job, buying a house, going on holiday, or even buying a new bottle of gin) but these obviously are nevr going to be a magic fix.

She has always expressed doubt about her direction in life. She's unsure if she wants kids (I put this down to never having had stable relationships), she gets stressed easily at work, and believes herself to have put on excess weight.

I've encouraged her to seek active hobbies, with me and on her own.

I also think she is doing just fine in life. I would consider her to be successful in her career, even if she would always like to be further.

Excerpt
However, we do struggle to communicate as things I say can be spun around on me or totally misunderstood and I will spend longer trying to return to my original point than making progress on it.

while i think everyone here can vouch for this, and it isnt what broke you up, specifically, you will benefit enormously from learning the communication tools here, for so many reasons.

I agree. I can already see the benefit in not using words like 'but' and sometimes accepting difference in opinion.

I probably have been very guilty of putting my feelings across to try and make her see and empathise with them, but have been accused of 'gaslighting' and 'invalidating her feelings before'.

I find it really difficult not to come down to her level when arguing/debating.

Excerpt
These occasions have never lasted more than one week, and I have always moved forward with an attitude of 'we are a team, we work together through these issues' and 'you cannot continue to put me in the position where I am frightened that you're ending things'.

this is a strong move. the running off would be something you would ideally want to nip in the bud should you reconcile. how did she respond in the past?

100% - and on the last occasions, I told her that it can't happen again. Now, you see why this time, I had to follow through with my promise that if she is going to walk away, she is walking away and that it is goodbye. I hoped that would be enough for her not to.

In the past, she has stayed with her Mum for around one week, while playing what I would call 'games' on social media in what look like attempts to either prompt responses from me, pass off to the world that she is 'good' and having fun, seek validation on things from others (such as this week, a post saying 'it is OK to feel sad about making the right decision').

I have always refused to participate in responding or playing these games. In the past, this cycle ususally ends when she realises that in order to get me to respond, she'll have to reach out. She tends to do so emotionally/angrily.

Example 1: She text me once saying 'if you're going to break up with me just do it'. I had never mentioned wanting to, had made it clear that I didn't want to, so this was a big surprise. She had broken down at work (nearby) and said she was in a really bad place. I invited her to come home from work, and she broke down. I reassured her that I hadn't been wanting to leave her. She then said 'I don't want to feel like this anymore' which I took to mean that she didn't want to be at the mercy of BPD.

Example 2: The last time this happened, again a week apart and games on her part. I was having a really tough time, waiting for her to come home, hoping that she would and that we could work things out. I re-tweeted a text helpline I had used during the week, as it had helped me and I also hoped she might use it herself.

This prompted a text from her 'Why are you tweeting about text lines and not making sure that I'm OK?'

This time, I made clear that I shared it because I had really benefitted from it, and hoped others (including her specifically) might also. I told her that social media is not real life, and that I had been suffering that week. It seemed at that point, that there was some realisation that I DID care, and was sorry for putting me through it. She came home.

So far, this break-up seems to have played out EXACTLY as those short separations have, but more serious and with proper steps taken like actually moving out. The behaviour is currently the same, and I had promised myself not to tolerate that anymore. Yet, it seems she is still asking herself 'Why I don't care?' and trying to provoke responses.

Excerpt
Yesterday, she acted emotionally and irrationally and it upset me a great deal. I called her out on it and told her I wouldn't continue to communicate with her while she spoke to me in that way.

what happened? what was said?

After 'take your stuff' and 'I've decided to move out', she wrote a list of items to split between us. At first, I didn't want to discuss this list and she had included things like her taking the bed, which I disagreed with. I asked for a couple of days of space, to gather my thoughts so that we could sit down like adults and discuss the separation and posessions.

This conversation never happened. She emailed our lettings agency to ask about steps to be removed from the tenancy after 1 day. Their email dropped into my inbox like a divorce settlement, and I text her to explain that I was upset and angered to have had their email without talking with her first.

After this, she seemed to get the impression that I was preventing her from collecting her belongings. What I did say, is that I didn't want her coming in and out after work every night, as and when she pleased, as this would be stressful for me and that - and that having moved out, she owed me some consideration re: getting her stuff.

On this, she began threats such as 'if you don't co-operate I will send my brother round', and later, the police. I knew these were empty threats, and reinforced the fact that she was very welcome to collect her belongings and that I wasn't standing in the way. She called me 'disgusting' and said 'it proved she had made the correct decision'.

I told her I wouldn't respond to these messages as I was 'exhausted', and they seemed to soften her. I maintain, I did absolutely NOTHING to damage my integrity in this break up. Other than my letter, I have made it as easy for her as I can to walk away.

Excerpt
I have taken steps to help her understand and begin to deal with her MH issues and potential BPD, but it has obviously not been enough.

can you say more about what this has entailed?

Upon recognising that she may have some form of depression, a few months into our relationship, I began to buy her some resources to try and help. This began with simple things like daily gratitude journals and prompt cards for us to ask each other questions. She would start the journals and seem to be doing well before giving up on them, likely feeling hopeless.

I then suggested therapy. To begin with, I took her to see my own therapist, but it quickly became apparent that she felt my therapist was on 'my side' and working in my favour. I recognised this wasn't going to work, and she began looking for her own. She has tried a couple in the last 2 years, even having a spell paid for by her Dad, before finally finding one this year who seems to have helped... a little.

Only in her time with me did she discover what BPD is. I remember the day she sent me the diagnosis, how hopeful she sounded that she may have cracked 'what is wrong' and I thought she was so brave. I told her I was really proud of her.

However, in her time in therapy, she has not had any DBT, and has been reluctant to bring BPD up with therapists for fear of being stigmatized or invalidated.

For Christmas and birthdays, I have always bought really thoughtful gifts to try and help. Recently, a really high end oil diffuser to help relax in stressful situations, and a SAD lamp to apply her make-up next to in a morning, for a dose of 'sunlight'.

In general, I think I have played a part in her recognition of her potential BPD and its treatment.

Excerpt
Her: Thank you for your letter.

Unfortunately the feeling I get from it, the understanding of how much I mean / meant to you, has come far too late. Actions speak louder than words and I’m so sad to say that the inaction caused me to feel that you didn’t appreciate me at all in the last few months.

You: My inaction was pulling back in self-preservation after she said she didn't love me anymore. When she says that actions speak louder than words, my actions over 3 years have been to stick with her, help her to seek help, and in this case... write a 5 page letter and not a long text.

take what she says here at face value, and this is why i warn that listening and showing that you get it is not about confessing how horrible youve been (im assuming you didnt do that in the letter) and how you "see the light"...because thats the response youll get. words, 5 pages or otherwise, will get you nowhere.

I promise that I didn't confess to anything in the letter, aside from not understanding how to help better and how my actions can play a bigger part in that than I realise. It was my final attempt at allowing her to see how real my feelings are for her, despite the setbacks we have reached.

now, this is pretty important. what inaction? what pulling back? what happened when she said she didnt love you anymore? this is an enormously significant part of what you are going to need to break down.

i encourage you to reread that post, with her letter, and your perspective on it, as if you were a neutral third party, the best you can. it is the clearest possible illustration of what different pages the two of you are on..

OK. Given that her previous attempts to walk away have played out in a way that suggests they were prompts for me to reach out and remind her that I DO love her. After each, I've made clear that I don't think it's the way - as it impacts on me, really breaks me up, and dents my confidence in a future I was always so hopeful of.

In mid-November, the 'I don't love you anymore' conversation began to go the same way. I have begun to recognise these conversations from others, and I try to set a boundary by saying 'I don't want to talk about this, we're going in circles' (instead of getting to the bottom of the issue at hand, usually small)

Upon hearing those words, they were obviously devastating. I knew, from mid-November onwards that we would need to really sit down and talk (January, was when I was going to write a heartfelt letter reaffirming my love), and that hearing those sorts of things is not something I want.

Mid December and she tested positive for COVID. She was ill, but not dreadful (bad flu). However, she has suffered from post viral fatigue for months in the past and was terrified she would get 'long covid'. I knew that I wasn't looking after her in the way I have in the past, or would like to have been doing. I knew why, because I was still reeling from her remark weeks earlier.

This is what I would say she means when she talks about my inaction. I spent a lot of December doing my own thing, and we spent less time together. I stayed up late playing games and would sleep in later than her in mornings. I do understand why she would feel that I no longer cared, but this was never the case. I was just in pain from what she said and unsure what to do about it.

She recovered, and Christmas period got underway. It was an underwhelming Christmas, much less close than we have been before. On Christmas Eve, and NYE, she made comments about really small things that I thought didn't need to be a big deal - and they spoiled both evenings. I remember feeling very miserable on both, and knowing that wasn't right. Hence, I feel now that my heat of the moment 'get your things and F off' was actually what I wanted to say in November, but couldn't.

it is very telling that she suggests you might have felt relief and seen this coming. it means that for some period, she has been grieving, and coming to see a breakup as inevitable, and she assumes you have felt the same because she sees it as that obvious.

This is enlightening, and also quite sad. I feel I haven't been given the opportunities to address issues that I believe every couple would be familiar with and expect, because they haven't been communicated to me very clearly at all. This explains our differing viewpoints between my 'I think this is a good, fundamentally healthy relationship' and her 'it's been inevitable for some time'.

[desertsting]

the "f this, then leave" response was not some fatal mistake that if you could do it over, would have saved your relationship. at best, not doing that might have only delayed the breakup. it did, i suspect, cause a short term over reaction on her end (not important), and push her to follow through with what she had been considering doing (very important). it was her "over the edge", but importantly, although you may regret it, i suspect it was yours, too.

This is comforting to know. I agree.

[desertsting]

She was in contact this afternoon, she sent me the following link:

https://medium.com/borderline-personalities/should-you-go-no-contact-after-a-bpd-breakup-30d77fff55ee

The accompanying message was:

Something to bare in mind.

Won't bother you anymore but would have appreciated you letting me know you are no longer willing to discuss anything in order for us both to get closure and move forward.

Take care.

I responded with:

Just to be clear, the link you sent me suggests you want to stay in contact, but on the other hand you're deleting me from social media. Those are mixed messages and very painful ones at that, if you could start being clearer about what you want from me, please.

I believe there is to be a long reply in store this evening.

[once removed]

more in depth reply later tonight when im off work.

Just to be clear, the link you sent me suggests you want to stay in contact, but on the other hand you're deleting me from social media. Those are mixed messages and very painful ones at that, if you could start being clearer about what you want from me, please.

this is where listening with empathy is critical. shes not going to just "start being clearer about what she wants". but the message is classically bpdish, and fairly clear at the same time.

this is an insecure persons way of saying "thanks a lot for ignoring/forgetting me, asshole".

its needy. its a pull, covered up with a push.

dont play into that by being reactive or defensive, see it for what it is. from her perspective, your response is throwing your hands up, putting it back on her, and it will leave her feeling needy and rejected.  she will feel similarly to the way you felt when you gave her your letter: shut out and not heard.

do not, in general, think of your loved one as a small child, but perhaps remember that if this was a small child, you wouldnt be flustered, youd be cool and benevolent.

the same is true for deleting you on social media. while its painful and shocking and maybe you take it to mean shes done and exorcising you from her life, set your pain aside and see that its just acting out.

i might have said something like:

"i read the article, thank you for letting me know.

im sorry if ive seemed distant, i was trying to give you space.

id love to talk when its a good time."

[desertsting]

Thank you. I look forward to your reply. I'm learning every day.

[desertsting]

After a little unhelpful back and forth yesterday feat. some of the following:

'I deleted you as you didn't seem to want to be in touch'
'What I wanted was some closure'
'You know it's difficult for me to feel ignored, even if I made the decision to walk away'
'If there's nothing left to say, let's say goodbye'

After another message from her a bit later regarding our joint bank account, I decided to try to leave things on a better note with some help from my work mentor. He suggested I use a factual statement that could not be pulled apart.

'Whatever has happened between us, I really care about you'.

Another lightbulb moment for me, was to realise what a fantastic way this is to approach any conflict in life. In any argument with a friend, family member or partner, I'm sure everyone would love to be re-assured like that. Something I will know for the future.

Her reply this morning:

I care about you too. I haven’t left because I hate you and want to see you miserable, please don’t think that. I want you to be happy as much as I want that for myself

It's nothing she hasn't said before already this week. However, an astrology app that I use for a little comfort told me this morning 'They're telling themselves stories right now. Listen to them without saying whether you agree or disagree'.

Therefore I left it with 'I appreciate you telling me that'.

The same app, we both use it, and it allows you to add friends and see information about your compatibility, etc. Would just like to make clear, I don't live by what it says, but it can be very comforting in times like this.

It sometimes prompts you to write a message into the app, that the app will choose to serve back later. You can write these short notes to yourself for encouragement, but also to others.

When I'm prompted to write a message to my pwBPD, it usually says 'she wants truth, be honest with them' etc.

I woke up this morning to the following message, served to me by the app:

'I am here and I love you, appreciate me and I will always be around'

I am 100% certain that this note is from her. I only have a handful of connected friends on the app. The difficulty is knowing when this message was sent, but in my experience it tends to deliver the message within a week.

Although she has been unable to tell me herself, at the moment, this message implies that she is feeling misunderstood, unheard and appreciated. It tallies with what you have said to me, once removed.

Thoughts?

[once removed]

okay. thats a lot of important detail we can work with, im glad you shared it.

3 months in, she wrote me a letter saying that she didn't feel that she was right for me, asking how she could ever compare to my ex of 6 years (I was on my own for 8 months after this, and felt ready to give again by the end).

my own relationship was just shy of three years long. she had a boyfriend of i dunno, half a yearish, before we got together. she wouldnt share much at the time, but it ended badly, and i since pieced together that it wasnt even a clean breakup, the guy wasnt even sure they were broken up months after we got together. i kinda swooped in as it was happening.

my ex was also very insecure about my prior exes, one in particular in the early days. i wouldnt say thats a "bpd thing"; ive been pretty insecure myself about a new partners past relationships, and a number of members here have reported feeling insecure about their bpd loved ones past or present relationships. but its certainly not uncommon...people with bpd are inherently insecure, tend to compare themselves negatively to others, and can be especially prone to jealousy. i cant tell you how many texts i got telling me to "go   so and so".

i would hardly reduce your 3 year relationship to being a "rebound". i might suggest that you entered the dynamic of what i call an "unresolved previous relationship", and that probably played a bigger role in the relationships early days, if less the latter days, than may be obvious, though the more you look back, the more obvious it may be.

the thing i learned from my own breakup is that there was always more boiling under the surface than i was necessarily privy to. you were with someone who was simultaneously grieving a relationship, and, frankly, it sounds like, trying to bypass that grief. you were also with someone inherently insecure and prone to seeing others as having nefarious motives, and/or to project their own past experiences upon (which we all do, with a filter, to lesser or greater extents). and you were with someone who signaled "more of this please", and that can invoke powerful feelings.

in laymans terms, unbeknownst to you, it was a rocky foundation for a relationship, and its not at all surprising that at three months (roughly the point at which the vast majority of relationships end), some of it boiled to the surface, nor is it surprising that the guy showed his face from time to time. even if she swatted him away like a fly, if you think back, you might see other acting out behaviors occurred around those same times.

(not so good with money, like to stay up late playing video games).

did she ever object to or raise any of that?

Compared to her, I believe myself to be more emotionally mature, objective, stable. But I guess that is easy to say about somebody with BPD. She is 2 years older than me, and in some senses I am immature

Upon recognising that she may have some form of depression, a few months into our relationship, I began to buy her some resources to try and help

there are really fine lines when it comes to supporting a loved one with bpd...or depression, or anxiety, or any mental illness, really.

the literature suggests we accept the role of "emotional caretaker" as well as the emotional leader. that generally speaking, we are the healthier party, and/or we should do the work of becoming such.

at the same time, the literature suggests that seeing ourselves as superior (not saying you do) or falling into a "one up" dynamic is a sort of codependency death trap.

bpd involves (if not revolves around) the simultaneous fears of abandonment and engulfment. the fear of abandonment tends to manifest itself in more obvious ways. but our loved ones have a way of presenting the best version of whom they think we want them to be (and again, frankly, we all do, to lesser or greater degrees). the problem is that its not always an accurate reflection of who they are, and they begin to resent themselves for the change, and then, ultimately, us for "making them do it". they can feel, psychologically, as if theyre in bondage. this, likewise, manifests in acting out behaviors.

what does that mean for you?

it means there are fine lines when it comes to supporting your loved one.

a lot of folks have run into some trouble when it comes to encouraging their partner in coping, in goals, in their own learning and/or sharing about the disorder.

think about it. if you had a disorder and someone offered you books or resources, gave a lot of advice, you might begin to sense that they saw it as something that defined you. and you might even rebel against that notion. when that happens, you tend to see conflict over the prescribed roles.

in laymans terms, resist being your loved ones therapist; it puts you in a one up position and them in a one down position, and they can feel that, and they will resent it, and i get the sense that underneath it all, the two of you are fighting over this even now. the role of being an emotional caretaker is a complex one. this article on what it takes to be in a relationship with someone with bpd lays it out well: https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/what-does-it-take-be-relationship

I probably have been very guilty of putting my feelings across to try and make her see and empathise with them
...
I find it really difficult not to come down to her level when arguing/debating.

we have all been there. im the guy that hates double standards, who initiated or participated in an awful lot of double standards to try and make my ex see where i was coming from.

it can be learned. it will always challenge you. you will never always get it right.

learning not to JADE is the best first place, and youre going to need it especially in the short term: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=280750.0

when we are JADEing, we arent listening with empathy.

100% - and on the last occasions, I told her that it can't happen again. Now, you see why this time, I had to follow through with my promise that if she is going to walk away, she is walking away and that it is goodbye. I hoped that would be enough for her not to.

i do. the lesson is, if youre going to be prepared to deliver tough love, or ultimatums, or otherwise walk away, be prepared to follow through. if it is primarily to teach your loved one a lesson, you are almost certainly putting yourself in the position of regretting it. that applies to her, too.

she realises that in order to get me to respond, she'll have to reach out. She tends to do so emotionally/angrily.

that tells you a lot. shes doing that now. what it means, where shes at in terms of the relationship isnt necessarily clear.

its a good idea not to over react, or chase, or be punitive for that matter, when it comes to our loved ones acting out behaviors...just dont get too caught up either way, let them hit baseline.

at the same time, its important to see that sort of thing as about the best she can do in terms of vulnerability, and respond with benevolence. give her an easy in.

Why are you tweeting about text lines and not making sure that I'm OK?'

shes pretty much doing the same shtick now.

This time, I made clear that I shared it because I had really benefitted from it, and hoped others (including her specifically) might also. I told her that social media is not real life, and that I had been suffering that week.

this is JADE, and it also may be condescending. if you are telling your loved one that social media is not real life, at the end of the day, you are talking down to them. thats the real distinction when it comes to supporting a loved one with bpd. people with bpd want to be seen for who they are and unconditionally, consistently (read: not without boundaries or consequences) loved. teaching them who or how to be is the death trap.

this is your number one "in", in terms of connecting with her and reconciling the relationship. shes doing the same shtick. change your response. catch her off guard. shes now in a place where she will respond best to benevolence and hearing her. correction or defensiveness will push her away.

So far, this break-up seems to have played out EXACTLY as those short separations have, but more serious and with proper steps taken like actually moving out. The behaviour is currently the same, and I had promised myself not to tolerate that anymore. Yet, it seems she is still asking herself 'Why I don't care?' and trying to provoke responses.

overall, i would agree with this. its hopeful. she is not emotionally done (not the same as being past the point of no return). but her words and actions suggest to me shes at her wits end. the worst case scenario in all of this is that she is done, having a hard time, using old coping mechanisms, and you reinforce that. this is why hearing her, and making her feel heard, is your strongest possible card. if the relationship is on and stays in a downward trajectory, youll just be getting back together in a way that makes the next time more likely to be the end. you dont want her to come back to you out of weakness, or vice versa. you want to attract her based on the premise of a new, very different relationship.

This conversation never happened. She emailed our lettings agency to ask about steps to be removed from the tenancy after 1 day. Their email dropped into my inbox like a divorce settlement, and I text her to explain that I was upset and angered to have had their email without talking with her first.

After this, she seemed to get the impression that I was preventing her from collecting her belongings. What I did say, is that I didn't want her coming in and out after work every night, as and when she pleased, as this would be stressful for me and that - and that having moved out, she owed me some consideration re: getting her stuff.

On this, she began threats such as 'if you don't co-operate I will send my brother round', and later, the police. I knew these were empty threats, and reinforced the fact that she was very welcome to collect her belongings and that I wasn't standing in the way. She called me 'disgusting' and said 'it proved she had made the correct decision'.

this is an escalation and furtherance of the conflict, on both ends. primarily, do not react to every acting out behavior she makes; the situation does not call for that. their letter, i assume, is just standard procedure. at the same time, her effort might have been just her trying to get your attention. in that situation, it might make sense to say you received a letter from the lettings agency, and asking if you can get together (in whatever setting) to talk about it. be careful in any of that not to send the signal that youre cool with all this, its what you want, which is probably how she took it and why she escalated. for example, on some level, she may have wanted you to beg and plead and profess your love, which as ive stressed and cannot stress enough, would not necessarily be the right move where a cool and calm "hey, i got this, whats up, what do you want to do" might be.

I don't want to talk about this, we're going in circles' (instead of getting to the bottom of the issue at hand, usually small)

i usually heard that i was silencing her and she was "allowed" to ask questions  

This is what I would say she means when she talks about my inaction
...
I feel now that my heat of the moment 'get your things and F off' was actually what I wanted to say in November, but couldn't.

i think youre dead on, and have a good read on it. she said some deeply hurtful   and you pulled back. the same happened to my ex and me. id encourage you to think hard on this. it sounds like there was an extended period of growing apart. there was a time where the resentment on both ends boiled to the surface (it was not simply about this time) and you pulled away from each other. how much of it is what you really wanted, but are struggling with the reality of? in all of this, you want to reach a point where you are sure that there is a solid "going foward", "new version", very different relationship path, vs both of you coping with the finality and the loss.

[once removed]

Thoughts?

my overall assessment is 

you dont want to invest in false hope or reading what she is communicating in a self serving way and lose sight of whats really at stake here.

what is clear is that shes not emotionally done.

what that means is not clear.

thats the good news and the bad news.

when someone is reverting to the same shtick, it means they arent emotionally done...there are lingering feelings, whatever that means, even if theyre primarily of resentment (its better than nothing). as ive said, that doesnt mean youre past the point of no return (while it doesnt sound like shes emotionally done, she is using stark, black and white, past tense, grieving language). it could mean that shes having a hard time and inappropriately leaning on you as a coping mechanism. and it could also mean that shes screaming, louder than ever, to be heard. it could even be both.

the point, i think, is not to search for signs that shes regretting her decision and secretly wants you back. it sounds to me that shes as close to done as she has ever been, regardless of if she professes her love and wants to come back within the next hour. youre looking for hope, and it exists, but reconciling, and not just reconciling but on any kind of sustainable basis, are going to come as a result of you showing her that a new, more attractive version of you and the relationship are possible.

these things, and if she sent the message the app sent, scream of begging to be heard:

'I deleted you as you didn't seem to want to be in touch'
'What I wanted was some closure'
'You know it's difficult for me to feel ignored, even if I made the decision to walk away'
'If there's nothing left to say, let's say goodbye'

how did you respond?

[desertsting]

i would hardly reduce your 3 year relationship to being a "rebound". i might suggest that you entered the dynamic of what i call an "unresolved previous relationship", and that probably played a bigger role in the relationships early days, if less the latter days, than may be obvious, though the more you look back, the more obvious it may be.

I would agree that there is a lot of unresolved heartbreak in her life.

did she ever object to or raise any of that?

Staying up late - she would have preferred for us to retire to bed at the same time I think. But also important for me to have my own space, and have always been a night owl whereas she gets tired, so I felt this was the best time.

Money - potential conflict of life goals, as she desires to buy a house whereas I'm only in the position to rent. I have debts that are not insurmountable by any means. I recently, after promising to address it for so long, sat down with her and we made a budget for me to get in a better position.

at the same time, the literature suggests that seeing ourselves as superior (not saying you do) or falling into a "one up" dynamic is a sort of codependency death trap.

I think I've fallen down here, even as recently as last week, by trying to point out that I've done everything in my power to help her get better - considering myself to be the superior one perhaps.

I'm starting to understand now, for all the times I have tried to explain out of a situation, re-assurance and a hug would have been a much better option for me.

It is very easy to see the social media act-outs for what they are, and while they have hurt, to be able to see this does allow me to detach slightly and understand that they have zero reflection on me. To have had this insight during moments of emotion during arguments in the past, would have been a big help.

give her an easy in.

change your response. catch her off guard. shes now in a place where she will respond best to benevolence and hearing her.

Do you have any further examples that may help my specific case, now that you have some further details?

you dont want her to come back to you out of weakness, or vice versa. you want to attract her based on the premise of a new, very different relationship.

100% this. Things have repeated an unsustainable pattern for so long, and this does strike as our first real chance to do something different about it.

Any further examples of methods to attract in this scenario would be appreciated, especially as I firstly thought NC for a period would help us gain some clarity, perhaps make her realise she missed me. I'm seeing a different side to this too, that any ignorance or her not feeling heard, which NC may worsen, may not be the way to go.

how did you respond?

'Don't ignore me, I have BPD'

I apologised for not responding to her previous message, that I was not ignoring her and thought she would appreciate her space.

Then, 'to be clear, there are mixed messages coming from you re: this article vs. deleting me from social media. Please be clear'

'I deleted you as you didn't seem to want to be in touch'

'If I had thought it would be easier, I'd have done that myself. It looks like you are trying to cut me from your life'

'What I wanted was some closure, rather than a letter and no response to my reply. You knew the letter would upset me.'

'The letter wasn't written to upset you. Often when we argue, I get so mixed up it was the only way I felt I had left to be heard. Wasn't sure how to reply to your interpretation of the letter so thought it best not to, as there weren't really any questions for me to answer'.

'I'd have preferred you to acknowledge it and let me know you needed to be out of contact with me. You know it's difficult for me to feel ignored, even if I made the decision to walk away. I didn't do it to hurt you'.

Of course I'm hurting right now, you've walked away. I haven't said I don't want contact, but you walking away and removing me from social media leave me feeling it's you who doesn't want contact with me. Why would you want contact with someone you don't love anymore?'

'I don't think I interpreted it wrong, I got the feeling it was all rosy and romanticised and made me feel really sad we were no longer that version of us. I just wanted closure, rather than to be ignored. If there's nothing left to say, let's say goodbye'.

'Agree to disagree'.

Then after the message regarding bank accounts, was the decision to send the message that I cared for her, regardless of what has happened, and her reply to that and potential message via the app is where we are now.

[desertsting]

An additional thought. I think I have come at this for a LONG time from the perspective of: 'I understand her better than anyone, why can't she see it?'

But I think I'm starting to realise 'I might never understand her, but that's also OK'.

[desertsting]

how much of it is what you really wanted, but are struggling with the reality of? in all of this, you want to reach a point where you are sure that there is a solid "going foward", "new version", very different relationship path, vs both of you coping with the finality and the loss.

I have had a dreadful afternoon. I think the realisation has hit me, very hard and square in the face, that to 'let her walk' is the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. I have been crying for 3 hours.

I want a relationship with this girl, more than anything I've ever wanted. I truly believe we both have a lot of love to offer one another, but as we have been uncovering, there are ways I can now see that I could have acted differently in order to support her better.

Yet, I accepted in its current state, things could not continue.

I am now stuck in a very hard place, between wondering if I've made the biggest mistake of my life, wishing I'd known about this forum and its teachings sooner, and knowing that I've TRIED, with an endless supply of love.

Please help me.

[once removed]

I am now stuck in a very hard place, between wondering if I've made the biggest mistake of my life, wishing I'd known about this forum and its teachings sooner, and knowing that I've TRIED, with an endless supply of love.

i dont see any signs of fatal mistakes that dealt the relationship a death blow. you did the best you could with what you knew at the time, and youre doing so now.

i also dont see signs that any of the issues between the two of you are fatal. there dont seem to be, for example, major values clashes, which are one of the more difficult things to overcome.

that gives you better odds at getting on a better trajectory should you reconcile.

Do you have any further examples that may help my specific case, now that you have some further details?

its hypothetical, so all of the same general advice still applies. there are going to be chances and opportunities to listen, and to make her feel heard. it remains the best card you can play. i know it doesnt always work this way, but if you have an opportunity to post contact from her before you reply, we can help craft a response(s).

in general, i would say dont defend/over explain your actions when shes confrontational like that.

shes kind of trying to force some sort of conversation. it might help to just say something like "what do you want to say? im listening." (personalize it, in the wrong context that could sound dismissive). give her the opportunity to say whatever it is she wants. i would tend to suggest not only not arguing, but not really stating your case or giving your version at all; rather, saying something to indicate you want to take some time to take it in and think it over, and bringing it back here.

its still probably best to let her initiate conversation unless theres a need. shes complaining about no contact, but thats more about her struggling. if you start initiating conversation, it will be awkward, forced, she wont know what to say, she may be distant, it will just suck.

I have been crying for 3 hours.

hang in there   . nothing has fundamentally changed.

to be clear, she knows you dont want to break up, right?

[desertsting]

Today's really taken it out of me. I tried to go to the supermarket for some food but the idea of buying and cooking for one overwhelmed me. I got into the car, started to drive home, began screaming and crying and had the first panic attack of my life.

I have also just seen on her IG stories that she has taken the ltd. edition Scrabble board she bought me for Christmas at the end of our first year. It belongs to me and I'm very upset.

It's something I would like back, she should not have taken it.

to be clear, she knows you dont want to break up, right?

She knows I have never wanted to, but this time I called her bluff. She moved out and we're currently in stalemate.

By all accounts she's still playing this game of hers, and it's tearing me to pieces.

[once removed]

let yourself feel it all, but dont let it lead you to act.

It's something I would like back, she should not have taken it.

dont act on this either, right now. it may have been in anger or to get your attention.

in fact, i would also stay very, very far away from her social media for the time being. literally anything you see will make you feel worse.

[desertsting]

I won't act. I fully agree it's been taken to get my attention.

Why should I let somebody treat me like this? I'm a caring, considerate, giving person.

There is currently an imposter in my ex's body, doing everything she can to taint my memory of her.

[desertsting]

The Scrabble board meant a lot to me - I will always be very appreciative of the gifts you bought for me.

An appropriate text to mention the gift? I am trying to act on the basis that I can’t force anybody to walk through a door, but I can open doors. This message opens 2 doors, to do the right thing or the wrong thing, without already piling on the guilt, and invites her to think about the decision she made.

Equally, I’m still angry about this and believe I could/should be being firmer about what is and not acceptable. But I guess this comes down to ‘let them fall’?

[desertsting]

Today's update:

Why have you blocked me on everything?

It's a really **** time for both of us right now and taking the time to think is important. I haven't blocked you, i'm just taking a breather from it all.

Ok, sorry.

It would be our 3 year anniversary tomorrow.

[desertsting]

Anniversary today. She's already posted to IG one of our songs - again likely for a reaction but at least it's a positive post instead of the negative ones.

Any tips to get through today? What/not to do?

[once removed]

Equally, I’m still angry about this and believe I could/should be being firmer about what is and not acceptable. But I guess this comes down to ‘let them fall’?

save it. you dont (i assume) need the scrabble board any time soon. that was done in a moment of hurt/pettiness/anger. let it die down, youll get it back.

Why have you blocked me on everything?

It's a really **** time for both of us right now and taking the time to think is important. I haven't blocked you, i'm just taking a breather from it all.

what actually happened here? why does she think you blocked her?

Any tips to get through today? What/not to do?

within reason, id put a kabosh on talking much if at all about how im feeling, and personally i try to stay far away from social media when im in a situation like this.

[desertsting]

I've temporarily disabled my social media accounts, just to stay away from it. She's since not really posted anything that could be classed as aimed at me.

I think we will both feel sad not to hear from the other today but that it's probably for the best.

[desertsting]

So, I got through yesterday. Bought a new bike and went on an 11 mile ride.

No contact from her, but a few more IG stories such as a really nice looking box of chocolates captioned 'To me, love me'. Quite a transparent one, where it looks like she's bought herself an anniversary present (or it was meant to be mine, and 'look what you could have won').

Pretty sad now that it's the next day. I will have to contact her today as I need to go to the bank to try to close/take over our joint account.

What do you think the next days/weeks are going to look like for me? I'm very anxious of the unknown right now.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[B53]

Hi Desertsession,
I know you and once removed have a conversation going and I don’t want to interrupt that, but I would like to share a few things.

There is a podcast called from Borderline to Beautiful. The host is a recovering BP. She talks a lot about her Journey. It is a podcast for BPs, but it is insightful for the NBP. There are two podcasts that really helped me understand the BP perspective.

One is called:The FP or favorite person and the other one is
Why is everything always my fault.

When my BP listened to the second one it was a aha moment for him. He has been in therapy and DBT for over six month now. We broke up three months ago, same as you, he walked out and took his stuff. It was the fourth time in six months. I had enough. I have been working on detaching. He contacted me a month ago and asked me to give him another chance because he feels like he has done the work and feels he can be a better partner. I reluctantly agreed. We are doing this slowly. We have been emailing but haven’t seen each other yet. I can’t tell you how scared I am.

I have signed up for a class through Family Connections for family members living with someone with BPD. It hasn’t started yet. I believe it is to give us skills to interact positively. How to talk and respond.

You have a good head on your shoulders, especially for someone so young. Our stories have similarities. Three months ago I was a mess. I now have mostly good days, even before I decided to give it another try.  I think Once Removed has offered me some advice as well as many others. I wasn’t as accepting at first with the advice I was given, but I did listen and everyone here was patient and kind. This is an amazing place. I have been on two other forums, but decided to check this one out since I am now reversing a breakup.

Hang in there! Best of luck,
B53

[once removed]

What do you think the next days/weeks are going to look like for me? I'm very anxious of the unknown right now.

its hard to say.

i think its fair to say you can expect some limbo and uncertainty. i know thats not what you want to hear or look forward to, but it really doesnt have to be a bad thing. ive been in this situation, ive worked with others that have, and when youre in it, it can feel like every second is critical, there are desperate parts of your mind telling you that you must act, desperate parts of your mind telling you you shouldnt act, and the two are at odds and thats not very peaceful 

every second, and every move, are typically just not that critical.

at the same time, 3 weeks, 4 weeks from now, the odds do change. both of you further grieve and come to terms with a breakup. and while that scenario isnt necessarily on your side, it isnt a death sentence either! lots of couples reconcile even months down the road, and often times for the better. ideally, theyve been introspective, theyve grieved the old relationship, and they reconcile with a very different game plan.

as ive said, there are just not a lot of cards to play right now that would be helpful or wise, but at the same time, im not sure you are making the most of the limited opportunities presented to you, which are, effectively, the best (if only) cards you can play.

i want to reiterate, and over reiterate, that you dont want to chase, beg, plead, you dont want to put her on the spot, and you dont want to beat her over the head with how youve "seen the light". none of that would be helpful and more importantly it wouldnt be authentic. but the very subtle thing that would go a very long way is just simply changing your instinctual response in a way that catches her off guard. thats probably what the next few days and weeks look like: some "just business contact", and some "im having a hard time and this is your fault" contact. how you respond to it can make the difference.

in terms of "get her back" style moves? i might reactivate my social media. id wait a day or two after that, and then id post things. i wouldnt be in your face about it, or "im so over you", at all, and if it needs saying, i wouldnt post anything even vaguely having to do with the relationship or the breakup. i would post things like my new bike and my 11 mile ride!

going dark can serve a purpose for a time; someone youre breaking up with will let their mind wander. but eventually, its playing your cards a bit close to your chest. going back to surface can have that same effect when its sincere, but its also productive and healthy. moreover, its attractive.

[desertsting]

Hey B53, thanks for leaving a reply.

Please don't feel like you've interrupted our conversation, I encourage anybody who can offer any insight to also get stuck in. The more information I have, the better.


once removed, there has been further contact between the two of us yesterday, as it was necessary for me to get in touch regarding a bank account.


Hey. I've been to the bank this afternoon and I've filled in a form to change the joint account(s) to sole, as I'd prefer not to move the standing orders around. There are no charges, I just need you to fill in and sign your part.

I had an email from *estate agents* too, asking me for an update. As far as I know, they're waiting for you to sign over the deposit and hand back the keys, but it sounds like they want one of us to cough up £50. I personally think they should **** off.

—-

Ok thanks, will the form be mailed to me?

I’ve already confirmed via email that the deposit can be transferred to you. Keys are still with me as *estate agent* hasn’t responded to two emails from me asking for their office hours (or if they’re working from home etc), if easier I can give them to you? I will only get chance to go on Saturday that’s all.

Well if it’s absolutely necessary to pay it, I’d appreciate if we could split it as I’ve had a lot to buy to make my flat habitable - my half of the deposit came to ***.

—-

*estate agent* is ****. If you want to give them to me, that’s OK - I have the form on me.

I’m happy to split it just to shut them up. Haven’t got time for them playing us off for the sake of a bit of admin.

—-

Ok, I can leave them in the postbox if you want to pop the form in there and I’ll grab it before I post them.

—-

Ok, thanks

It’ll be in there for you tomorrow, if you could sign it for me I’ll take it to bank after that

—-

Ok will try sort it on way to work

And then, just under a couple of hours later:

Hope you are doing okay. I know yesterday [anniversary] wasn’t easy. I want us to be mature and able to be amicable in the future if you get to a place you can be okay with me. I know it’s probably asking a lot but I’m mot expecting it any time soon.

Can I just make one last request, please don’t write any songs about my mental health.

—-

****, I understand and I’m ok, thank you. I’d never not be amicable with you, so you shouldn’t worry about bumping into me, if you were worried.

There will never be a bad word spoken about you in a song.


It sounded like she wanted to see me, when she mentioned handing the keys back to me, but then she backed away when I said that would be OK. I didn't bend over backwards to say yes, but was pretty gutted when she said she'd post the keys instead. She has, this morning, completed the form and posted the keys.

I'm hoping you can see some signs of change in my responses. I am trying to show that I am listening, and not always having to put my point across.

What can you see in yesterday's contact?

Thank you.

[once removed]

my initial impression is that the contact went ideally. it was really a "just business" thing, and thats really awkward, but you stuck to it.

if it were me, this is really a personal style thing and depends a lot on the context of your relationship, but when she gets into the personal stuff eg "please lets be amicable please dont write a song about my mental health", i would keep the warmth, but id be more vague and less direct.

its really hard to put my finger on, but it comes off, to me, as asking you to soothe her, rather than something you need to directly respond to.

i know ive made a huge point about making her feel heard, and not offering tough love, so that could sound contradictory, but i think a lot of her communication has come from a place of "im struggling, make this better for me", and i think theres a balance between being cool and warm, and not doing that.

respond, but avoid the pushes and the pulls.

does that make sense?

[desertsting]

Thank you. Yes, I have decided always to respond to a message in some fashion, as she has made a point of not wanting to be 'ignored'.

I feel slightly more confident in last night's responses from my side than I have in previous days.

Might you be able to offer a hindsight alternative to my final reply to the push/pull message? Just helps me to have examples of better to aspire to.

[desertsting]

P.S. Why did she test the water re: giving the keys to me but then decide to post them?

Nervous about seeing me/getting upset?
Aware she might have taken some actions last week to get reaction/upset me and unsure how I will act with her?

[once removed]

in general, do respond. ignoring can psychologically manipulate a person, but i tend to prefer ethically catching someone off guard   and being sincere and authentic. ignoring can be called for but yall arent in that place. however, i DO encourage taking some time to respond if need be.

im not exactly sure how id have worked this one. its more a general point about reading between the lines of what shes communicating vs directly responding to individual points or soothing her.

i might have tried something along the lines of "come on. ive been an asshole, but im not THAT big of an asshole, right?" or a light hearted joke that suggested id be the opposite of amicable (risky with a sensitive person, but can work). i would single out the sentence about being amicable. i wouldnt respond to the "am i ok" stuff or the song writing. by the way, youre a queens of the stone age guy, arent you?

hone in on the point. be cute. ignore the rest. let her push on the rest if she wants to; you can work with that.

[once removed]

i didnt read much into that offer.

it would seem to me that neither of you want to see each other under those circumstances.

[desertsting]

I am a QOTSA guy, good spot. My identity has been compromised!

You're probably right re: keys. I would love to see her, when she is ready, but it should probably be under better circumstances than 'business'.

I have written a song. It's my therapy. As I said in my message to her, I would never write a song that showed her in a negative light. In fact, I've written a song about her MH in the past, but it was a supportive one.

The song I have written this week, I'm very proud of it and was hoping to share it with my band's followers later this week. I am, also, a little worried about doing so - it will inevitably be seen and heard by her. It's more about our belief in energy and the astrology app we both use to guide us a little.

Horrorscope

I stop in and check each day
on stronger forces out to play
but it's tough to navigate by the stars
when the sky's so grey

Looks like I l’ve landed
on the dark side of the moon
It feels like I’m stranded
on the cold side of the room

It's all here to be enjoyed
but this and that and then we’re all annoyed
enough for the gravity of the remark
to strike like an asteroid

Looks like I l’ve landed
on the dark side of the moon
It feels like I’m stranded
on the cold side of the room

Whether it all aligns
has never mattered less
There has to be a sign

Whether it’s black or white
and there’s another address
It’s gonna be all right

Please let me know whether sharing the song (not the lyrics) is a good/bad idea. It's something I have always done is to write about my experiences and I'm proud of what I do. However, I don't want to rock the boat here, also.

[once removed]

I am a QOTSA guy, good spot. My identity has been compromised!

a desert sessions reference aint gonna make it past me.

You're probably right re: keys. I would love to see her, when she is ready, but it should probably be under better circumstances than 'business'.

its sudden, its final feeling, she can talk all she wants about "closure" but no one wants to go through this. i wouldnt read too much into it, but avoiding it is a better sign than not. like, if she changes her mind tomorrow, she could want to see you, she could be feeling brave or testing herself, it doesnt mean its over, but id probably rather have "yeah im not ready to see you under circumstances where im giving the keys to the place we shared back".

hoping to share it with my band's followers later this week.

i would. i did (my own bands ep that we released on the verge of my breakup)! i dont see anything that would rub her the wrong way, though full disclosure, ive been wrong before. i would think this kind of thing, the bike, the 11 miles, these are precisely the kinds of things you want to reactivate social media with. is it something youd normally share? id do it. you dont have a lot of control over how, if at all, she interprets it. it isnt "im buying myself chocolates on our anniversary cause i love me".

[desertsting]

i would. i did (my own bands ep that we released on the verge of my breakup)! i dont see anything that would rub her the wrong way, though full disclosure, ive been wrong before. i would think this kind of thing, the bike, the 11 miles, these are precisely the kinds of things you want to reactivate social media with. is it something youd normally share? id do it. you dont have a lot of control over how, if at all, she interprets it. it isnt "im buying myself chocolates on our anniversary cause i love me".

Thank you. This is all I needed, and you're right, it's not that. It is a healthy and cathartic part of my life and I'm proud to share it. Hell, I've a feeling she will even like/enjoy the song if she can try not to read into it too much. It's not vague.

[desertsting]

Things definitely seem to have cooled off/calmed down after our recent interactions. Her social media posts have levelled off and don't seem to be so pointed towards me.

We still have a tiny bit of business to sort out, which I will contact her about this evening.

I have approached a new therapist with experience of BPD in order to process this separation in the best way I can. We had a positive consultation this morning and I'M excited to get stuck in.

I guess this is an impossible question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. When might I expect to hear from my pwBPD? With business to sort, we haven't yet managed more than a couple of days without speaking, but now with less and less business to deal with - I'm starting to get anxious about the wait in store and the uncertainty that comes with it.

I'd very much like a chance to just listen to her.

[desertsting]

We’ve had a little more ‘business’ to sort today unfortunately. I needed to start this one.

Hey, sorry to bother you, but been speaking with the landlord, and he’s asking about his sentimental radio, obviously, and his Rug Doctor.

Is it OK if I text your Mum about getting it, or would you prefer to sort it for me?

The sentimental radio was intended as an in joke about our landlord.

Clearly sentimental considering he hasn’t needed it for a year...

I’ll have to sort it as it’s at my brothers now, but I doubt it’s going to fit in my car.

Moments later...

Are you moving out?

Me:

I thought the same, not gonna argue with the guy.

Thank you. I’ve no problem sorting it with **brothers name** either - just let me know.

I haven’t decided yet x

Before replying, she took to social media to show off that she’s ordered a new sofa for her place. It’s a nice sofa, she has good taste. In fact it’s just a nicer version of the one we had.

There was an ‘I’ll let you know’ from her before a ‘Thanks. This is tough on us both’ from me.

She a bit spooked by the idea I might be moving and not just around the corner?

[once removed]

She a bit spooked by the idea I might be moving and not just around the corner?

hard to say. could be. could be making conversation (not a bad thing either).

I guess this is an impossible question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. When might I expect to hear from my pwBPD?

i imagine it will be mostly business for some time, unless she just loses it. that doesnt have to be a bad thing.

i would still suggest now is probably a very good time to both unfollow/not read her social media, and, when/where appropriate, post my own developments. conversation may start to die down, and if youre anything like me, that will affect you, and anything she posts will seem like "oh shes moving on and forgotten all about me". and if youre not, it can still give you some mental space.

[desertsting]

As far as I can tell, we don't have any more business to sort. I suppose this is a good thing.

i would still suggest now is probably a very good time to both unfollow/not read her social media, and, when/where appropriate, post my own developments. conversation may start to die down, and if youre anything like me, that will affect you, and anything she posts will seem like "oh shes moving on and forgotten all about me". and if youre not, it can still give you some mental space.

So it really is just a case of ignoring social media and waiting? I'm very frustrated by the social media stuff. Not really because WHAT she's posting is hurtful, because it isn't, it's quite transparent as 'look how much I don't need you'. But it's the fact that when there is contact between us, she doesn't use the opportunity to be pleasant/heard.

I wish there was a way to get the social media to stop. It's a lot harder than you think not to look.

[once removed]

ive been there ds. i understand entirely how hard it is not to look.

it just took recognizing that it was in my best interest. it took a while. my friends and family would see me lose it for hours on end over just a basic profile picture change - i couldnt even see anything else by that point.

on some level, you want to play the "here is the most attractive version of myself" game (without making it a "game"). psychologically speaking, it causes doubts and second thoughts. if it sounds manipulative, we do the same thing in resumes and job applications, and you should do no more, no less. put your most attractive best foot forward without posting billboards all over the country that say "im so over you sarah marshall".

on some level, shes doing the same thing. shes also in the power position, being the one that initiated a breakup. its very easy to have the same reaction, ten fold, and needlessly. just like im telling you that what she posts doesnt spell the end, likewise, if she were posting here responding to your social media posts, id be telling her the same thing.

its literally only going to serve to confuse you and hurt you when it means little if anything. and its mentally good for you - it gets you out of the small stuff. putting your most attractive, best foot forward isnt something you can fake. you need to be focusing on it and doing it and living it - at a time when its hard - because it shows.

So it really is just a case of ignoring social media and waiting?

if enough time passes, youll need to reach out. i think youre pretty far from that being the case right now.

[desertsting]

With some unexpected business to resolve today, she got a little flustered with trying to sort it - said she was having a bad day. I told her to 'Relax and let me deal with it'. I called the people in question to come to an understanding with them, and asked if she'd like to speak about it after work.

'When would you like to call?'

'Let me just check my rammed schedule... 6 ok?'

I was already chuffed with my calm responses. She let go of the steering wheel and I jumped into the driving seat.

Big moment coming up. I can't wait to hear her voice, but know this is just a small step. It will be nice to open up an avenue of contact other than just short, business texts and the goal is to leave her wanting more.

Any tips?

[desertsting]

OK. Phone call done. It was only 8 minutes, but I knew it needed to be short and sweet.

We sorted the business quite easily, she was complaining about the person she'd been trying to sort it with, and I was able to make light of it, knowing I'd been able to step in and sort it. She insisted on sending the half of the money she owed me while on the phone. I was able to say 'I don't need to check while you're on the phone, I trust you'.

She thanked me 'for sorting it' and I said that's OK and I hoped it had helped with her day. She said it was 'one of those days', I said 'I know the days'.

I asked if she'd been taking the CBD oil tablets I'd got for her and she said she had been, and thanked me for them. We left it there, on 'speak soon'.

It was lovely to hear her voice. In the immediate aftermath of the call I felt I had done well.

She posted a story to Instagram moments later that said 'letting go of a loved one is painful'.

Now I feel sad and unsure about what happened today.

[once removed]

Now I feel sad and unsure about what happened today.

nothing has fundamentally changed.

the things you are reading into, the signs you are looking for, will drive you crazy. shes operating from an entirely different place. men tend to fall into this trap. ive fallen into it myself many times.

i dont mean to suggest you shouldnt play your best cards at every chance you have - you should. but business phone calls where youre a nice guy arent going to move her from where she is (they dont hurt!). and her instagram stories are not going to give you clues about what to do or how to act. in essence, you are getting your own hopes up, and then getting your own hopes down, and fighting with that. shes in a different place, and not looking at this like you are, and expecting her to be is a source of your pain.

i know. thats frustrating to read because youre wondering what else you can do, and the answer, right now is, not a lot. im speaking more to the mental battle youre going through and focusing on. its wasted energy.

what is clear, at this point, is that this is a real break up; not just another case of her running away and then coming back. she has done a lot of grieving. she still has some grieving to do (good), but she is invested in the breakup.

believe me when i say that that is not the worst news in the world, and doesnt spell the end for your chances any more than it did a week ago; as i said, nothing has fundamentally changed. running back to you likely wouldnt have been the best outcome. and it is my strong belief that grieving the old iteration of the relationship is very necessary (for both of you, and you are both doing it at different paces) if a new one is going to happen.

while the two of you are likely to still have this level of contact for a bit, and you still want to play your best cards, it will help to shift your perspective to a bigger picture. this likely will not be "won" in a given encounter/conversation. its probably going to take more time than that.

it would have been different if shed flipped out on you, or something like that, which would have been a clear display that this was more to teach you a lesson and be heard, than a commitment, and there would have been a way to really give her that. that hasnt happened. while it still could, the two of you have kept things pretty amicable, and i sense thats not likely to change (and thats not a bad thing. you really dont want carried over conflict).

you may want to begin to consider a hail mary, and when i say consider, i mean, at this point, only consider. something that communicates a breakup isnt what you want, and youre prepared to offer something very different than before. hail marys mostly dont work, but sometimes they do, and sometimes theyre the only card we can play. i wouldnt do it right now. im not really sure what it would look like - putting it in writing is typically not ideal (sometimes you have no better choice), she doesnt seem keen to get together, and i get the sense from her that right now, it would backfire. but id start to think about what it might look like, and have it in my back pocket.

its all a very tricky balance. the longer a breakup goes, the more invested in it one or both become, and the lesser odds for reconciliation. at the same time, couples get back together months down the road, often the better for waiting and going through that process, and that can yield even greater odds for actual long term success. there can be a statute of limitations, so to speak, and you want to be mindful of that, but you dont want, in general, to make desperate moves.

the long and short of it is that there is still a chance. its just a lot less likely to come from any one encounter, and its less likely to happen tomorrow or the next day, and it will help a lot to shift your perspective/hopes from the day to day, conversation to conversation mentality and play the longer game. it will also help to have a hail mary in your back pocket, and start to think about what that will look like, in case this starts to reach the point of no return.

[desertsting]

Thank you. What does the point of no return start to look like?

Interestingly, 'the app' says today: 'One of your relationships is reaching a point of no return, and it's hard for you to get close. Express how you feel. Let someone take things slow'.

I was going to drop the song today.

if shed flipped out on you, or something like that, which would have been a clear display that this was more to teach you a lesson and be heard, than a commitment, and there would have been a way to really give her that.

What do you mean by 'there would have been a way to really give her that'? Thanks.

[desertsting]

Lastly, regards the song - there's a chance there could be some 'flip out' from it. I kinda need a response, or attitude ready to go in this event.

[once removed]

if you have some apprehension about dropping the song, i might hold off a couple of days. i know i said otherwise previously. but look at it this way: dropping the song is very unlikely to have her messaging you begging to get back together, right? so, im not saying dont do it; i am saying if you feel unsure or unready, hold off. if not, go for it.

What do you mean by 'there would have been a way to really give her that'?

i was talking about, she lays into you, you never listened, you dont even care, go  so and so, i gave so much and you gave nothing, i hate you...that kind of thing, and in that scenario, you just listen and take it all in. she has made clear shes struggling with the breakup, which is not a bad sign at all, but also to be expected.

What does the point of no return start to look like?

i dont know in this case, but i dont think youre there, and it could, realistically, be a long ways away.

[desertsting]

i was talking about, she lays into you, you never listened, you dont even care, go  Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post) so and so, i gave so much and you gave nothing, i hate you...that kind of thing, and in that scenario, you just listen and take it all in. she has made clear shes struggling with the breakup, which is not a bad sign at all, but also to be expected.

I get the sense that this is still to come. Recall, we haven't actually spoken AT ALL about what has happened since the day she decided to move out. Last week she was mentioning 'closure' and we definitely haven't had anything close to that, while sorting business.

I get the feeling, at the moment, that you're right and we are both grieving the end of our old relationship. I can't know how she's feeling, but it seems to be affecting us both hugely yet we are responding differently. She seems, at the moment, to still be pushing buttons to 'see if I still care'. Of course, I am trying to appear as neutrally as I can until the opportunity is laid out - either by her 'flipping out' or asking to talk, on a particularly bad day for her.

A positive I'm taking from the phone call, is that I got her on the phone at all. It has been various levels of emotional/angry/short texts for the last 3 weeks, so to break down a barrier and open up the phone as a means of communicating can be seen as something?

[once removed]

i think thats a reasonable read on it all.

I get the sense that this is still to come.

it could, for sure. if it does, trust that making things better, fixing it, is not the ideal response. its okay to say that youve heard it and need/take time to reflect.

She seems, at the moment, to still be pushing buttons to 'see if I still care'.

she has done so, for sure. it is difficult to tell to what extent it has been a case of bpdish bad boundaries/dependency/need for someone else to make it better, to what extent its a normal tendency we are all subject to (i dont have bpd and i have been the king of this in my life), and to what extent its buyers remorse.

it could be all of the above. the point is really to see things for what they are, and not get caught up on any one thing.

so to break down a barrier and open up the phone as a means of communicating can be seen as something?

this is sort of what i mean. i could flip it around to say that the more she works through it, the less painful it is to interact with you; id have no trouble interacting with my ex today. im not saying that. im saying the perspective can miss the big picture and be self exhausting, misleading, and defeating.

[desertsting]

Some thoughts on a potential 'hail mary' for me.

I get the understanding from your earlier messages that we are grieving the old, a necessary step in order to move forward either separately or with something new.

With that in mind, and my above mentioned uncertainty about 'closure' etc. This is slightly at odds with your mention of 'something that makes it clear that a break up is not what you want' - but does include the line 'At that point, I realised you didn’t want to be here, or with me, anymore' which re-affirms it's her choice, not mine.

I'm finding it very difficult to focus on myself and 'move forward' with so many things unspoken.

Is there a good time to send a message along the lines of the following? I accept there has to be some break in-between the current business conversations before I would send something like this.

Hey. I’m wondering if you might feel comfortable meeting to talk. I was thinking about what you said about closure, and to be honest, I agree. We’ve done all the business, and it’s sucked, but we haven’t spoken since we argued and there’s so much left up in the air.

Like you said, you were thinking of going through with this a few times, and it didn’t feel much different to me until I got the email from *letting agent**. At that point, I realised you didn’t want to be here, or with me, anymore. But from that point on, it’s all been business at 100mph and I feel confused, and upset. You can help me with that.

I’m not seeking an opportunity to change your mind. I’m soul-searching, and I can’t move forward until I know what I did wrong, or what I could have done better, for my future. All I’m asking for is the opportunity to listen, most importantly, when you feel ready.

[once removed]

i definitely would not act yet. id just consider, and think about it for now.

i would say a lot less, if your goal behind the message is to meet up. i especially wouldnt say its something that she can help you with. i wouldnt say things like "i cant move forward until i know what i did wrong" - even if she wanted to go down that road once face to face, any woman will read that and say "i told him so many times, he still doesnt get it, he will never get it."

you also are, potentially, seeking an opportunity to change her mind, right? the note sounds more like you just want one final conversation to clear things up so you can "move on".

[desertsting]

A positive weekend I think, and a little switching of roles I would say.

I had a great weekend. I released the song, went for a 17mi bike ride, managed a food shop, cooked for myself, re-appeared on social media with a funny clip and posted about my achievements.

On the other hand, my partner went much quieter on social media - not posting anything that could be specifically aimed at me. Tweets suggested she had quite a down weekend, and stayed in for most/all of it. She did post a picture suggesting she is reading a book about attachment styles, a nice sign that she is taking working on herself quite seriously.

Overall, whereas she has appeared (deliberately I guess) to be the one in control of the situation for the last couple of weekends, it seems like this week, things have shifted a little in this regard. She is definitely feeling lonely.

She did text on Saturday as her brother brought back something belonging to our landlord. She addressed me by name in the text, which was odd, and the overall tone suggested she was in a bad mood with me. I was out riding at the time so it took me 3 hours to respond. I didn't get much back.

There is another item she has to return, that I didn't even realise she had. She has said she will 'get it to me when she can'. She's only around the corner.

[desertsting]

Her social media has gone very quiet, other than a couple of hints that she is investing in some personal growth. Mine is moving the opposite way, and I am posting about things that make me happy in the healthiest way I know how.

Her message on Saturday was very grumpy and formal. I am guessing this could've been down to me putting the song out on Friday.

We haven't spoken since then - yet there is still an item of my landlord's that I need returning. I didn't even know she had this item. I wonder almost if she took some of these things either to give me avenues to get in touch, or to keep one hand of control on the situation ('If I have X of landlord's, he has to come to me for it before he can return it and move out). She left it at 'when I get a chance' - but I know her work schedule and her work/flat are both just around the corner from me.

I am happy that her social media has calmed down somewhat, but I am not sure how to proceed with getting landlord's possession back. Though not urgent, he is waiting on me.

[desertsting]

Further developments.

Had a message from her this morning, seeming much nicer, asking about a hard drive of hers with some files on it.

After I confirmed that I still had it, and asked when she'd like to get it, she again resorted to 'just leave it by the postboxes' and 'maybe I'll grab it tomorrow after work'.

I find this a bit daft. I'm not going to bite. Given I still need the item of my landlord's I said 'If you'd be able to bring the radio tonight after work, then you can grab it then?'

'Ok I've got a therapy session after work so will have to be after that'.

I then went down to the postboxes, and discovered she'd been in this morning and posted back 2 CDs that I gave her as gifts. They were of my music and the #1 copies. I'm quite hurt by this but likely this is more 'acting out'.

I'm undecided how to move forward with today. On the one hand, I would quite like to see her, so figured I wouldn't leave the hard drive on the postboxes and will just go down when she returns the radio. I could then 'discover' the returned CDs in front of her.

Please advise. Thank you.

[desertsting]

Didn't go quite as I hoped, didn't get to see her.

Essentially, she got here and out as fast as she could to drop off the landlord's radio. She didn't wait for me to bring down the items of hers I had to give her.

I was on the phone when she text:

'Is it downstairs? I can pop now'
'Have you seen my black gloves anywhere by the way? I'll pop it round now and leave it downstairs as I need to get back'

'Hold on, I'm on the phone sorry'
'Having a look'

'Don't worry I'm nearly there'
'Not urgent'

'I'll pop down to the door, your stuff's not down there yet, I wasn't expecting you so soon'

'None of it's urgent so I can swing by another day'
'Radio is below your mailbox'

I walked downstairs at this point with her stuff, to see if she was still there.

'Nothing to worry about'
'You home already?'

'No walking now'

'Turn around then :')'

'I need to get back as someone's picking a sofa up soon'
'I pass it every day I can grab it on way to/from work'
'I'd have waited a few minutes, I just don't have the head space to see you, sorry'

'Ok, I hear you'

---

Apologies if hard to follow. Essentially, I thought it daft that we continue to leave things for the other at the mailbox every few days. I feel no anxiety about seeing her, but clearly, her anxiety to see me is extremely high.

I didn't push the issue, other than 'turn around then' - but that was essentially me making a joke of the situation unfolding that I had missed her by seconds and she could not be more than 30 seconds away.

The moment she mentioned not having the headspace, I changed course.

She's since Tweeted about being heartbroken about her last (free) therapy appointment coming to an end and that she enjoyed working with said therapist.

And an Instagram story of her newly delivered sofa, with my favourite band playing in the background.

I'm happy with how I dealt with today. I tried to stay cool, calm, collected and believe I managed it.

Very confusing signs. Not sure what to make of the fact she seemed totally unable to face me.

[once removed]

Not sure what to make of the fact she seemed totally unable to face me.

it is hard to say.

i dont read it as a bad thing. difficult feelings are better than none, right? while on some level youre eager to see her, for obvious reasons, if she had no trouble doing so, that wouldnt be great.

its hard to make much of the situation in general, and i also dont sense anything has fundamentally changed.

my gut tends to think its still best to hold off on any hail marys. what do you think?

[desertsting]

We met!

It was bloody hard, but I stayed calm and collected.

We swapped what SHOULD be the last of the items to be swapped - hopefully the last 'business'. She said she'd not been leaving things on purpose to bother me. I said she hadn't bothered me. Then we got a little deeper.

I asked 'Are you OK, really?'. She said she was having good days and bad days, and had been upset the night before having finished the last of her free therapy sessions. She said she could potentially afford more but is going to see how she goes.

I told her that I was able to listen, when she felt ready to talk. She at first said 'I'm not sure what there is to talk about, I feel that things came to their natural end after what you'll agree was a rubbish Christmas period' and re-iterated her belief that I would feel there was some inevitability about it.

I said that, what's happened in the past doesn't matter now, and that if/when she understood her feelings in the present better, that I am willing to listen. She took this in (more later).

I wasn't intending to, but I apologised for the way I spoke to her in that last weekend (that I had tried to point out all of my efforts to help her, and told her to get her stuff and F off). She said she wasn't holding me to any of that.

I said 'I think I thought I understood you better than anyone, but perhaps I never will, but that's OK too'.

She mentioned the impact of me not looking after her when she was ill with COVID, mid December. So, it's clear she is yet to recognise the effect that 'I don't love you anymore' had on me and my security. I will get the chance to say this, but no rush.

I gave her a big hug.

It was hard to know when to wrap up, but we did, and I went upstairs and began to cry immediately. I think she must have done the same as moments later, I received the following text:

Do you think we'll ever be able to be friends?

Sorry, just needed to gather my thoughts - really emotional moment for us both. You know how much I care.

That's okay, yeah it was hard but I'm glad we spoke.

If you ever wanna go for a walk and a smoke / talk - not expecting that any time soon but I'd hope we can get to that place one day.

I'm glad we spoke too.

That sounds nice, but just wanna say again, when you're ready x

---

This is how it's been left. It was nice to see her again, and I was able to stay calm and in control of myself. It was hard not to say a few things, but for the first time in a month, her guard came down slightly compared to the texts/social media stuff of late.

I'm glad she's offered the potential for a walk/talk. I'm thinking of waiting 2 weeks, and reaching out BEFORE Valentine's Day. It will be a difficult day, and the idea of a positive meeting beforehand (12th/13th) could well take the edge off things somewhat.

She's definitely still using a lot of past tense/grieving language at the moment. But I'm OK with that, as the past needs to be left there.

Now, my focus is on being able to have a productive walk/talk in the next couple of weeks.

What do you think?

[desertsting]

OK, I will split the next few messages as there has been quite a lot going on.

Friday - the night after we first saw each other, she text me late on that she was struggling and asking if I had a number for weed. I didn't have one I was comfortable giving her (safety) but had been to pick some up in the moments before she text. I told her that she could have some of mine, just needed to ask. She seemed a little reluctant, but eventually agreed after the re-assurance that I'd 'seen her upset before'.

We met outside shortly after. She was definitely upset, and said she felt empty 'detached', and was having a hard week. This was my first opportunity to put my empathy and listening into practice, and I did OK. She said she felt 'triggered' watching me 'get on with my life' and 'improve myself' after so many times of her asking me to. I told her that I was just doing the best I could with what I had at the moment, that I was sad, confused, and anxious about the future and trying to better my situation as much as I could. I joked that I am a man, and that she 'definitely wasn't clear enough' when asking for what she wanted. She laughed.

I told her that I was learning to be a better listener, and that I hoped she could see that I'm here and listening, and to text me the next time her frustrations arise. We lightened up a little after this. I asked if she felt better to which she said 'yes'. I told her I was glad to have been able to put her at ease.

I offered to walk her home, to which she accepted. I offered my arm, she accepted. We had a hug at her door, and she immediately text me 'thank you'.

I felt amazing after this encounter.

[desertsting]

Saturday

I waited until the next morning to watch a TV series she'd recommended the night before, to text about it. There was a little light-hearted back and forth, before I tried to be flirty and it didn't seem to land. That was OK.

I checked in later on to make sure she was OK. She'd had a better day. She opened up a bit more:

I appreciate that, and how you’re being with me. So, thank you for being supportive even when you’re hurt.

Obviously I’m quite confused about how I feel, as I’m the one who walked away but it’s still hard for me for a lot of reasons.

We have a lot of good memories (along with the not so good) and although I know it’s the right thing for me to have done, those times still flood my mind quite often.

You don’t need to apologise x

The regret thing was around feeling upset to see you try to improve yourself after I’ve left but I can understand why. Fresh start etc.

I re-iterated that it wasn't a fresh start, and that I was doing the best I could each day.

[desertsting]

Sunday

She text a link to this article first thing in the morning: https://medium.com/borderline-personalities/surviving-breakups-when-you-have-bpd-c101b231026a

I don’t want to make this all about how I feel, because I know it’s hard on you too - but this reads like I’ve written it (if I had the insight on how to feel better). You asked why I’m struggling, I find it hard to articulate how or why I am, this is why I guess.

Are you ok?

I’m sorry, I don’t know how to deal with this, whether we should be in contact or not. I just don’t feel like anyone understands. I’m really sorry.

Thank you for sending that, I was reading and thinking about it.

I understand that there are other, extra emotions in all of this. They’re part of who you are, and all valid. I know they don’t define you, either.

I get that sometimes you don’t want to articulate, or can’t. Don’t apologise.

Maybe it’s better if we don’t talk. I don’t know, I just feel really guilty and I can’t cope at all. I’m so up and down.

Please stop apologising. I’m a grown man, I make my own decisions x

---

I felt this reply of mine came across a little short. She didn't reply, so I checked in later. She opened up much more then, mentioning a 'BPD care package' that a friend had brought her and sending a photo of it, as well as some other chit chat.

Think she’s like me with how self aware she is but sounds like it does impact her relationship - she always jokes she doesn’t know how James puts up with her and she does the exact same stuff I do (worry about cheating, checks who’s liking his photos etc) he sounds pretty laid back with her tbh but I know it’s not easy.
She’s had a really PLEASE READing hard life though, her childhood trauma is insane bless her. She’s such a lovely soul.

I think it’s really good you’ve got somebody to talk about it with. It’s a learning curve for everyone involved, sufferers and partners, every day. Has she had any luck with help for it?

I'm sorry you've had to be part of it

I'm not

I feel like it was just amplified in the past couple of years and feeling insecure nd unhappy about myself / us has taken its toll. As you say it’s all a learning curve...

Thank you, I know I’m not it’s just hard, and sad that we’ve ended up here

I know, and I made some of it about me, when it never was. Don’t be sad, we’re where we are right now, and the past is nothing but lessons.

---

She thanked me for the extra joint I'd rolled for her on Friday night. I said I was intrigued by the edibles inside the BPD care package and she asked if I'd like to try one. More on that later.

After a little more back and forth, I DID manage to land a small bit of flirting this time.

[desertsting]

Monday

She messaged first thing about having a cough, and if I had any medicine left over, could I put it downstairs for her to grab on her way to work. I did.

After work, we caught up a little more. She seemed reflective, talking about mornings at the start of lockdown where she'd lay in the sun in the window of our flat. A little bit more on the flat and she asked again 'are you going to move?' - I said 'Not right away, I'll probably enjoy some of Spring. When I know where I want to be, I'll move'.

I'm sad it's not what we both wanted from it

I asked if she was ok.

Honestly?

Always

I’m not doing well at all but I’m trying my best

That is all anybody can ask of you. I always want you to be honest. I feel like I’ve seen a different side to you the last few days.

How so?

You have been vulnerable in a way that I don’t recall. Trusted in me, despite your uncertainty, and allowed me to feel I made a difference by doing relatively, very little. Been braver than I’ve ever seen you, in trying to work out where and why you are where you are today.

Guess it’s hard to be vulnerable with someone when you already feel in a difficult place with them. You know I put up walls, not on purpose...but I feel really alone and misunderstood at the moment and I appreciate you listening and trying to comfort me even though I don’t feel I deserve it

Being on the defensive or in a state of fight or flight because of arguments and feeling like we’d drifted apart probably made it hard to open up. But I guess stepping back from it all gives a bit of clarity.

Having to face my own problems and emptiness hasn’t been easy. I keep wondering if I’ll ever be okay, and that’s scary.

Of course, but you’re managing to, and I’m trying to make it easier. You know I am listening, and that you’re not alone. When I said ‘I can make my own decisions’, what I meant was, ‘it is a choice’. By that logic, you deserve everything you have.

You’re opening up now, and that’s good enough for me, and you’re bang on with clarity.

I understand that. But you are facing it, and you’re doing well. You might feel empty, but you’re not. You’re full of many amazing things.

I feel pretty heartbroken

I just want to go a day without crying or regretting things, or just being terrified of the future. I’m trying to just live in the present but I can’t.

One day at a time. Learn from the past, tend to the present, and the future WILL take care of itself. On the flip side...

It might also be helpful for me to admit, that I can say that as much as i want, but it doesn’t mean I don’t regret things every day, or be scared about the future.

I don’t particularly want to but I should probably go to bed

---

I then asked how her weekend was looking. She said not much planned. I said 'trying out those edibles on Saturday at 4, if you will want to'.

She agreed, so we had a date set.

[desertsting]

Wednesday

After a couple of days not hearing from her, she text yesterday while I was at work.

Hey, I’ve been prescribed antibiotics as I’ve got a pretty chesty cough and been feeling rubbish. Bit reluctant to take them really as they always make me feel worse before I feel better...soo will let you know how I’m doing towards the end of the week

Hey. Ok, I'm sorry to hear that. How are you doing?

There was a little back and forth, nothing interesting.

---

Thursday

Hey. I’m off sick today so maybe best if we do Saturday another time, don’t wanna give you anything.

No worries, hope you feel better soon

Thank you

---

So... After one month of business, and not talking about anything personal, we made some real breakthroughs this last weekend, being able to talk to each other in person and her opening up to me in texts. I set a 'date' for this weekend and was going to go round to her new place for the first time.

She's since 'cancelled' it, which has left me feeling pretty gutted. But I do believe that she's ill, and I can understand her not wanting me to see her when she is. I also appreciate that she let me know Weds/Thurs rather than waiting until tomorrow night or the day itself.

---

What do you think of the progress we've made? Where do you think her head is at? Do you think she will be in touch to reschedule our 'date'?

I feel positive about the fact she's been opening up, but less certain of where we're at now.

[once removed]

I’m sorry I shouldn’t be doing this. You shouldn’t need to try to make me feel better

shes 100% right. this is loud and clear. heeding this is listening with empathy.

do not put yourself in that role.

i rarely use the term "friend zone", for a variety of reasons, but you risk putting yourself there, when youre trying to be her boyfriend.

what shes telling you is that shes leaning on you, as a friend, to get her through the breakup, and she (rightfully) feels guilty, and simultaneously conflicted about that (its not the role youre "supposed" to play). you are inadvertently signaling that youre happy to do it.

why do you want to avoid this most of all? because it soothes her grief and eases her transition. that transition (for anyone going through a breakup) typically looks like going from romantic partners, to the comfort of knowing that person is there if you need them, and then detachment, and then the person is someone you used to know.

lets walk it through.

I apologised for the way I spoke to her in that last weekend (that I had tried to point out all of my efforts to help her, and told her to get her stuff and F off).

good.

She mentioned the impact of me not looking after her when she was ill with COVID, mid December. So, it's clear she is yet to recognise the effect that 'I don't love you anymore' had on me and my security. I will get the chance to say this, but no rush.

generally good. it probably wasnt the time to correct her narrative, or impose yours on hers. let her say "hintity hint hint, ____ hurt".

Do you think we'll ever be able to be friends?

Sorry, just needed to gather my thoughts - really emotional moment for us both. You know how much I care.

nicely done. its very wise not to give a direct answer to that question.

She said she felt 'triggered' watching me 'get on with my life' and 'improve myself' after so many times of her asking me to. I told her that I was just doing the best I could with what I had at the moment, that I was sad, confused, and anxious about the future and trying to better my situation as much as I could. I joked that I am a man, and that she 'definitely wasn't clear enough' when asking for what she wanted. She laughed.

this was okay. shes literally telegraphing for you that its having an effect. i dont want to overstate it, yours was a pretty neutral and reasonable response, but i would avoid any language that sounds like reassuring her or apologizing. id be vague; it reinforces the effect. dont do too much explaining.

I waited until the next morning to watch a TV series she'd recommended the night before, to text about it.

maybe nitpicking here, being in touch in a lighthearted and upbeat way is a strong move, but if you have a nice moment, like where youre walking arm in arm, hugging, etc, consider waiting longer, and seeing if she makes the first move.

I checked in later on to make sure she was OK.

dont do this, especially, at least not explicitely. an ex romantic partner, especially one that doesnt want to be an ex romantic partner, ought not put themselves in the position of helping that person heal from the breakup.

They’re part of who you are, and all valid. I know they don’t define you, either.

I get that sometimes you don’t want to articulate, or can’t. Don’t apologise.

im going to encourage you to kill off this kind of language, entirely.

as gently as i can put it, you sound like her therapist. this is the single biggest mistake people make when theyre learning the tools. they talk to the other person like they are 5 years old. telling someone they, or part of them, is valid, is not validation, its condescension.

i once read a member here, on the receiving end of a breakup, telling their ex partner that "you MATTER. your thoughts MATTER". what grown adult needs to be told that?

She didn't reply, so I checked in later.

dont chase.

You have been vulnerable in a way that I don’t recall. Trusted in me, despite your uncertainty, and allowed me to feel I made a difference by doing relatively, very little. Been braver than I’ve ever seen you, in trying to work out where and why you are where you are today.

Of course, but you’re managing to, and I’m trying to make it easier. You know I am listening, and that you’re not alone. When I said ‘I can make my own decisions’, what I meant was, ‘it is a choice’. By that logic, you deserve everything you have.

You’re opening up now, and that’s good enough for me, and you’re bang on with clarity.

I understand that. But you are facing it, and you’re doing well. You might feel empty, but you’re not. You’re full of many amazing things.

this is another example. think about it. how would you feel if someone spoke to you this way?

this is the sort of stuff she needs to hear from friends she might be texting to lean on. girl, youre amazing, girl he never listened, girl youre doing so good, girl youve got this, girl youre better than him, you dont need him, etc.

youre the guy she just dumped, youre chest deep in pain and anxiety, youre trying to be her boyfriend again; you arent trying to make this easier for her.

She messaged first thing about having a cough, and if I had any medicine left over, could I put it downstairs for her to grab on her way to work. I did.

i really dont want to overstate it: helping a recent ex with some weed, some medicine, not a big deal. i know shes laid into you about not being there when she was sick.

big picture, be careful. you are putting yourself in a position where youre the guy that offers her comforting words to get through her breakup, youre there if she needs something, and put it downstairs for me so we dont even have to deal with formalities. its just not a position you want to be in say, two months from now, or probably even a week from now.

I feel pretty heartbroken

I just want to go a day without crying or regretting things, or just being terrified of the future. I’m trying to just live in the present but I can’t.

getting a little more constructive, and less "dont do that", listening with empathy is about listening...not necessarily offering words of encouragement or soothing, but the skill of actively listening, and believe me, that ties in with what to avoid. youre doing more of the former where you can do a lot more of the latter, and youre complicating things for yourself in the process.

one of the simplest ways to make another person feel heard is just to ask questions. this would have been the perfect opportunity. shes telling you that shes having regrets and fears and doubts about the breakup.

this is one of my favorite resources on the matter: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=273415.0

learn from it; dont recite it.

What do you think of the progress we've made? Where do you think her head is at? Do you think she will be in touch to reschedule our 'date'?

I feel positive about the fact she's been opening up, but less certain of where we're at now.

while im offering a lot of criticism, it is not my sense that youve killed your chances, and i may be overstating some specific incidents to get the big picture across and the risks of it.

1. you dont want to be her therapist or her friend or get her through her breakup or her bpd
2. opening up to you, right now, is not necessarily the best thing, at least not in this form.
3. opening up to you, in terms of your relationship, is mainly an opportunity to ask questions and learn, less one to reassure her or make her feel better.
4. id cut back on the reaching out. its somewhere between 60-40 and 70-30 lately, you initiating, and id want it to be the opposite. let her do at least more than half of the reaching out. if she doesnt reply, dont follow up.
5. if she called off the get together, i dont care if shes hospitalized with a deathly illness, id pull back pretty hard. id wait at least a few days and see if she initiates (at that point it might, at most, be worth sending some version of "get better"), and i would under no circumstances mention getting together.
6. keep up the social media posting. not too showy, but carrying on with life, onward and upward.

[desertsting]

Thank you, sir. Some more big developments last night.

I want to be honest with you, I can't stop thinking about everything between us, and I really wanted you to come over on Saturday. But it's not right and going to get us back to square one, and maybe the only way I'm going to get over things is if we're not in touch. It's not what I want at all and I want us to be okay with each other, but I am really having a hard time with it all.

You seem okay, and that's really good, but I'm not.

I'll admit I've been checking your socials, I've been thinking about deleting all my apps. Just really not in a good place x

Thank you for being honest with me, and I understand you being really unsure of what's right or wrong at the moment.

I'm interested in what you're thinking about, and looking forward to the chance for you to tell me more. I also appreciated you telling me how ill you were feeling with so much notice, too. We can re-arrange when you feel better, if you change your mind.

What seems to be is not always what is. What are you having a hard time with?

I just miss you. I miss the better times. I've been mainly wondering why it didn't work, why everything was so good at the beginning. Wondering what you're doing or who you're talking to, how you're feeling.

I feel like I'm leaning on you and I shouldn't be, but you're the only person who understands - or more importantly you're the only person I want to understand. But I suppose that's my attachment to you and you being my favourite person for so long.

I still want to see you on Saturday, but I feel like that's wrong and I don't want to do any more damage.

I miss you too, you can rest assured. We have had the best times. And I wonder the same things. I feel I've learned more about you in this week, than in many more before that. It sounds like you understand yourself a little better too.

If you feel better, you can let me know. I feel very confident that no damage will be done.

Ok, I will. I'm going to get an early night as I didn't sleep well. Thank you, Night xx

---

Some real openness and perhaps some signs she is unsure of the break-up, the reasons for it, and and acknowledgement that she's missing me. Even some good self awareness re 'favourite person'.

[once removed]

I want to be honest with you, I can't stop thinking about everything between us, and I really wanted you to come over on Saturday. But it's not right and going to get us back to square one, and maybe the only way I'm going to get over things is if we're not in touch. It's not what I want at all and I want us to be okay with each other, but I am really having a hard time with it all.

You seem okay, and that's really good, but I'm not.

you may want to be a little more explicit about not wanting to break up.

shes expressing regret over it, and willingness (along with hesitancy) to see you.

this reads a whole lot like: "im not sure i want this breakup, but you seem fine with it, and if thats the case, maybe i need to cut things off for a while to heal, you tell me".

i could be wrong, and you dont want to stick your neck too far out, but ive mentioned it before. its really not clear to me that she knows you do not want to break up, and that you want to get back together. it is in your interest not to chase, but for her to know that.

I just miss you. I miss the better times. I've been mainly wondering why it didn't work, why everything was so good at the beginning. Wondering what you're doing or who you're talking to, how you're feeling.

I feel like I'm leaning on you and I shouldn't be, but you're the only person who understands - or more importantly you're the only person I want to understand. But I suppose that's my attachment to you and you being my favourite person for so long.

I still want to see you on Saturday, but I feel like that's wrong and I don't want to do any more damage.

this is a bit of a mixed message in comparison to the other. that she is conflicted and regretful is obvious. that she would get back in a relationship is not. as ive said, that she is hinting that she wants you to respond differently (not let her lean on you as a friend) is.

that may be complicated by the possibility that its not clear to her that you want to get back together so she could be hedging a bit in her messages.

[desertsting]

I’m sad to be back year after a really promising start to last year. After a period of a month, where she moved out and played lots of games over social media and with regards to swapping possessions etc. – once the business side of things were cleared up, she began to reach out and open up, just as predicted and documented in the first part of this thread.

I was able to deploy my newly gained listening skills and empathy to have her open up to me, and she began to trust me a lot more with this. We were able to move past elements of the previous relationship and re-united on much better terms. We started to use our time together better, spending time on bike rides and getting out into nature a little more, as we did at the very start.

We definitely enjoyed a second ‘honeymoon phase’ of around 4-5 months. While this was a really nice experience, I realise now that it was potentially dangerous and prevented us solidifying lasting change, which may have contributed to our current situation.

Despite things getting back on track, and an increase in trust and communication between us, we remained living separately. This had its pros and cons. It allowed us to miss one another when not seeing each other, and enjoy our own time and space – something that is important to me. On the other hand, for me at least, it felt like a ‘downgrade’ from our previous spell of living together for nearly three years.

I moved into a new house, one that I will admit I chose because of its size, under the hope that we may re-unite there after some time. It was clear that she was impressed by me taking on a new house, and making it look nice and welcoming. However, as time went on, it became clear that she was not willing to re-locate there with me. This definitely frustrated me, as it meant that while seeing her I did not feel ‘at home’ and when at home, my home was missing her presence.

Her reasons for not wanting to re-locate were that she is happy in her current location, close to the city centre, if not madly in love with her flat – and that I am still yet to demonstrate a suitable increase in overall cleanliness, tidiness and financial management. I acknowledge this.

Throughout summer, while our relationship was not in trouble, I started to become aware of elements of myself that I was unhappy with. I was stressed at work, and began to realise that I was no longer happy in my profession. I was then made redundant, which was obviously hugely stressful. During this time, I made steps to enroll on a degree level course in an area where my passion lies. I am pleased to say I was accepted and will be starting this soon. It will take hard work, but I am confident that I am ready to take this on and it will help me with my ‘purpose’ in life.

This whole period was difficult for me. I began to be less sure of myself and my direction, I was without an income, and my weekend binge-drinking led me to a couple of regrettable incidents that made me seriously look at myself. I did not cheat on her, or anything of that nature, but I was disappointed with my behaviour. I didn’t feel able to share these incidents as I felt they would have caused more damage than good, though this weighed on my conscience.
To take the positives from this time, my pwBPD was able to support me financially and emotionally during this time. Although, it took me longer to regain my balance and begin to move forward again than I would have liked, and I believe this may have negatively affected our relationship.


For the last few months of last year, things between us slowly began to creep towards our old ways, frustrations not expressed well and left to fester, nagging by both of us, and a return to some of her more pessimistic feelings of ‘I’m not happy’ and ‘Maybe this isn’t working out’. I made clear that I accepted that a lot of this may be on me, my current struggles, and that I was working hard to get myself into a better place in order for us to succeed again.

The holidays passed with no major fall-outs (unlike last year), but a general feeling of apathy and that things weren’t as good as they could be. I bought us a Christmas holiday but travel restrictions put pay to that, which was frustrating. We spent our anniversary together in mid January and she bought me a lovely and expensive gift. However, on the evening we had an unfortunate falling out.

[desertsting]

The next day, while I was at work, she texted me:

I’m sorry for what happened yesterday and I’m really sad about it. I don’t want to keep doing this and I don’t want to hurt you anymore. I want to be happy and I want you to be too but I don’t feel like we can consistently do that together - I feel guilty for dragging you down too, when I know it’s not working even though we’ve tried