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VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?" Parental alienation is when a parent allows a child to participate or hear them degrade the other parent. This is not uncommon in divorces and the children often adjust. In severe cases, however, it can be devastating to the child. This video provides a helpful overview.
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Author Topic: Doing the right thing can be so hard  (Read 943 times)
RestlessWanderer
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« on: January 17, 2021, 12:43:12 PM »

It’s been four weeks now since I filed for a PO against my W. Two weeks since we made a mutual NC agreement/order. I screwed up after the first week of the NC and allowed contact. RWw called before a supervised visit saying the power had gone out in the home. So I went to help. It was just a breaker, and she had already fixed it. But I had allowed the door to be opened. After that we talked a couple of times. She was pleading for me to drop the NC. I considered modifying it to allow for unsupervised visits with the conditions of drug testing and counseling, things she said she was already doing. But those conditions set her off. I came clean to my L about the contact. She scolded me, but gave me another chance. I have to admit that it was my first instinct to lie about it to avoid getting into trouble. A behavior that I had picked up in my relationship. Thankfully I decided to be honest and the reaction was reasonable, which was a refreshing reminder of how people should react. I’ve maintained the NC since then.
RWw however has not. She continues to call, text, and email. She can’t seem to respect the NC.
The person we agreed on to supervise the visits changed her mind after just three visits. I guess she bit off more than she could chew, though RWw insists it’s my fault (no surprise). Since she didn’t find someone new before the weekend, my S doesn’t get to see his mom. RWw also missed the last two scheduled zoom calls, with no effort at all to reach out or even call on the phone.
I know that sticking to the NC and listening to my L is the right thing to do, but it feels so wrong since it ends up hurting our S. But the way I see it, I can’t bend over backwards to accommodate RWw when she hasn’t made a strong effort to find a new person in a timely fashion.
I know it hurts my S, but I don’t think it will make a major lasting impact. This is going to be hard no matter what, but I think he’s at the age where he is still relatively resilient.
I want to rush things for his sake, but I need to maintain the boundary and follow the rules.
The inner turmoil I endured when I permitted contact has gone away since I got back behind the NC. It will be my protection from her in many aspects and that is my only comfort in this difficult time.

On a side note, a very close friend of the family, the father of my lifelong best friend, suffered some very serious injuries this week after falling from a 2nd floor balcony. This has added some difficult emotional strain on top of everything else. I keep in touch with my T, which is helping.
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GaGrl
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« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2021, 01:19:56 PM »

Those in our lives with BPD aren't the only ones who learn by experiencing consequences! Obviously, you learned what happens When you loosen your boundaries even a little. So...you re-established boundaries that work. Good for you!I

Your STBW is going to move at her own pace. Nothing you do can hurry up (or slow down) her emotional reactions or growth. Add to that the uncertainty of her drug and alcohol use, and you simply can't move off the supervised visitation requirement.

Are you communicating with your STBX through your lawyer regarding the supervised visitation situation? And have you had your lawyer communicate to her that you have resumed NC?



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RestlessWanderer
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« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2021, 01:49:31 PM »

Those in our lives with BPD aren't the only ones who learn by experiencing consequences! Obviously, you learned what happens When you loosen your boundaries even a little. So...you re-established boundaries that work. Good for you!I

Your STBW is going to move at her own pace. Nothing you do can hurry up (or slow down) her emotional reactions or growth. Add to that the uncertainty of her drug and alcohol use, and you simply can't move off the supervised visitation requirement.

Are you communicating with your STBX through your lawyer regarding the supervised visitation situation? And have you had your lawyer communicate to her that you have resumed NC?
So true, the boundaries really protect me.
I learned long ago, there’s nothing I can do to bring about change in her.
All communication is through the Ls, at least on my part. STBX still tries to communicate with me, but I’m not responding to her. It’s slow, but safe, and filtered.
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« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2021, 02:16:48 PM »


So...to be clear (make sure I have it clear)

Power was out and you responded and that was the one and only visit, or were there other visits where the conversation continued?

This is important going forward, because at some point and time the issue of where your wife resides MUST be dealt with.

I don't for a minute think the power was off.  Plus, she didn't call you and "wave you off" when she fixed it...right?

She plotted for a way to get around the boundaries...and it worked for a bit, until you realized what was happening.

No..I'm not giving you a pass, but I don't think this one incident was as bad for you as you believe it is. 

Just as strongly, I don't believe you realize how unworkable the issue of her staying on the property is.

So...who does she call when the power goes out again?

Who pays the power bill?

Who does she call when sewer/septic backs up?  Water stops flowing?

So let's say that the landlord gives her a list of workers...who pays the bill?  Who pays when/if RWw doesn't pay?

Once RW wife realizes she can just run up repair bills/service calls to "tweak" you...how do you get it to stop?

I could go on...

Please don't focus on this one incident...focus on the big picture and make sure this incident is fully documented and you have a journal to refresh your memory if it is needed in the future.

Switching gears.

Why not offer supervised visits with RWw and a family therapist.  Leave it to RWw to set this up.

Best,

FF

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RestlessWanderer
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« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2021, 02:51:51 PM »

FF, those things have been on my mind. After the power, there was an issue with the refrigerator. My L advised me to find a handyman to handle those issues so I’m not at risk anymore. Unfortunately, my neighbor that had the fall had just agreed to be the handyman. I have someone else in mind, but I have to find out if he’ll work. This is short term.
Big picture/long term I’m going to offer the single wide mobile home as part of the settlement. This will get her off the property and further away. Plus it could help the long term financial impact.
We’re waiting for the court's recommendation for visits going forward, so we’ll see what happens next.
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« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2021, 03:24:34 PM »


Why is it that you have to solve the problem of where she lives, how she fixes her stuff?


Where is the single wide?  Who owns the property?

So...she "hooked" you with two issues and got you to do down there?

Can you get a statement from the person that was doing supervised visitation as to why she quit?  I think that would be powerful eye witness stuff.

Best,

FF

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« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2021, 03:44:28 PM »

Since my mom owns the home that STBX is in, we have some responsibility to maintain it.
The single wide is about 50’ away from the house she’s staying in now. I own that, pre marriage, and my L thought it could be a significant monetary contribution to the settlement, so it would be beneficial in that aspect.
Yes, she hooked me with those two “issues.” My L advised me to choose a handyman that could address anything else that comes up.
As for the statement from who was supervising, I don’t know what kind of value that would have. She is the sister-in-law of my W. I trusted that she could act in the best interest of our S, but I don’t think she’d want to get involved any further, especially if she had anything of value against STBX.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2021, 03:52:43 PM by RestlessWanderer » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2021, 04:06:39 PM »

 
So, when the court asks why she quit...and when RWw gives some weird reasons/allegations..


Hey, long term the distance between you guys needs to be measured in miles. 

Is the trailer rented now? 

Would be much better to rent out the trailers and use that monthly income to pay part of her rent somewhere else.

I get it you are likely interested in making sure she has a safe place for eventual visitation.  You could write the settlement to say that you will pay x amount directly to a landlord of her choosing as long as the apartment passes hud standards or something like that.


Hey...I'm not criticizing you.  I totally get where your heart is and your head...

If your wife gets treatment, gets sober and all the other things...then maybe consider it.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2021, 05:17:00 PM »

Part of your issues stem from the fact that you’re just too nice. I know how difficult it is to try to disentangle yourself from someone who has substance abuse issues and seems ill coped to make their own way in the world. You want to provide her with a safe landing spot, and that’s understandable.

What will likely continue to occur is that she won’t take the steps she needs to take to forge her own path if you continue to coddle her.

As in AA, sometimes a person needs to hit bottom to make a major life change. If you continue to rescue her, that won’t happen.

I know it’s tough to be in that role, having done that myself, and still it’s no guarantee that a loved one will have an epiphany that leads to making better life choices.

I agree with FF that allowing her to continue living on the property puts you, your son, and your mother at risk. Where is she obtaining the heroin? Do these people she associates with come to her living quarters? What about your legal exposure for harboring someone who associates with drug dealers? Is it possible that you could be putting your employment at risk? Or the custody of your son?

These are very serious issues and should she slip further into addiction, it’s likely that more problems will emerge.
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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2021, 06:13:16 PM »

FF and CatFamiliar, I agree that our peace and the distance between us are inversely related. I don’t think there will be any objection to her living far from us, which makes the settlement process easier. Right now we don’t have any renters, she’s in one house and technically I’m in the other. Which raises the question of how long I should stay with my mom. On one hand she’s 80 and could use the company, and she helps with childcare. On the other hand I don’t want to be a middle aged guy living with my mom. I’m going to remain for the time being, as the pros outweigh the cons. It’s much easier for me to process things if I know that there’s someone to help me with my S.

Cat, I am actively disentangling from STBX. I regret that I let my kindness get the best of me. Lesson learned. I definitely see this as a consequence of her actions, regardless of what she says. My L thinks the courts will agree.

FF, you raise a good point about the value of a statement from RWw SIL. I’ll ask L about doing this too. It’s a little awkward, so L might help with a justification for it.
I like your idea of renting to pay her rent, which I’ll surely have to pay for a period of time. Unfortunately with her disability I may have to support her for a long period of time, TBD.
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« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2021, 07:00:40 PM »



Perhaps have the L or a paralegal reach out for a statement.

I'm going to say that you need to stay at your Mom's until your wife is completely off the property AND a no trespassing order is in place so she never comes back.

Until then, you don't need to be in ANY SITUATION WHATSOEVER where you are alone with her.

So...enjoy the company of your Mom and enjoy that she is also a witness.

I've been thinking about you and your thread for most of the day.  Where you alone with your wife for the power deal and the fridge?

Switching gears:  Tell us about your wife's drug use?  How does she get the drugs?  If a drug dog went in the trailer, what are chances that dog would find drugs?  What about in the car?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2021, 08:19:56 PM »

FF that’s a good idea about having L reach out for the statement.
I totally agree about not being alone with STBX. When I went to check on the power during one of the supervised visits. When I went to check on the fridge she was alone. I made an audio recording of it all, at least. From now on I’m sticking to the NC.

I’m not certain about the drug use at all. When she told me she was using, she indicated that she was using in her vehicle away from home. If she’s  getting it from the same place as she did before, it’s about 45 miles away. That being said, I can’t rule out that she’s used in the home. It hasn’t been her MO, but than can always change.
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« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2021, 09:04:57 PM »

Never trust what an addict says about their using. Frequency, location, method- nothing.

My ex was claiming to be completely sober while shooting up in the shed a few yards behind his mom's house.

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« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2021, 10:07:11 PM »

 do you have proof she is using?
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« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2021, 11:51:55 PM »

I don’t have proof she is nor do I have proof she isn’t.

All I have are suspicions and patterns of behaviors.
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« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2021, 05:49:39 AM »


OK, so do you have any recordings of admissions or anything like that?

Clarity:  She has admitted to you in the past she used..correct?

How do you know about the place 45 minutes away?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2021, 05:51:34 AM »

  When I went to check on the fridge she was alone. I made an audio recording of it all, at least. 

Solid work on this part.  You understand at some level the danger that is going on.

For all of your recordings, are they backed up "in the cloud"? (like google drive)

Best,

FF
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« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2021, 07:59:02 AM »

Part of your issues stem from the fact that you’re just too nice... You want to provide her with a safe landing spot, and that’s understandable.

What will likely continue to occur is that she won’t take the steps she needs to take to forge her own path if you continue to coddle her.

I'll echo that perspective.  Work with your counselor on why you feel responsible for her not seeing your son when she fails to find a supervisor for the visit, why you feel at fault when she doesn't do video visits with him, why you of all people feel obligated to be the one to rush over when something breaks down, supposedly, at her residence.

Frankly, a few failed visits with his mother won't ruin his life.  Repeat, there is a format for her and your son to meet, you weren't mean nor responsible because the framework failed a few times.

My lawyer told me... Another client, described as nice but clueless, had a contrived restraining order against him but his divorce decree said he had to deliver wood to his ex's home.  So he was required to do something that his other order prohibited.  He would have been better just not doing it but since she needed wood, he delivered it.  Maybe it would have worked if he had someone else deliver it, I don't know.  His reward for compliance?  He was jailed for the violation.

Technically that is not your situation... unless you are also ordered to keep your distance from her.  But you're like that Nice Guy who went to jail, you're making emotion-driven decisions, not practical ones.

Learn from this.  Use the armchair quarterback skills we all have to review what happened, why it went wrong and how to address future quandaries.
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« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2021, 08:52:54 AM »



Learn from this.  Use the armchair quarterback skills we all have to review what happened, why it went wrong and how to address future quandaries.

And also...be deliberate about creating situations where you have to make less and less of these types of decisions.

Instead of focusing on fixing her fridge (power..video)

Focus on creating a safe space for you.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2021, 12:17:23 PM »

OK, so do you have any recordings of admissions or anything like that?

Clarity:  She has admitted to you in the past she used..correct?

How do you know about the place 45 minutes away?
All I have are text messages where she insinuated using some contrived code words. She said things like she “had breakfast, was full, had been on a diet but not anymore.”

The town she’s from has the highest heroin use per capita in the country and maybe even the world. It’s horrible how bad it is there. That’s where she used to get it from, and I know she goes there nearly every day.

Unfortunately, regarding the issues related to the home, since my mom owns it, STBX has some rights and protections under landlord/tenant laws. I will no longer take care of these issues, but we do have some responsibility to solve these issues.
This is why I would like to get her off the property as soon as possible. But that is likely to be dependent on the settlement.

Regarding the missed visitations and calls, I certainly don’t feel any responsibility for fixing that. I do feel for my S, but I’m not going out of my way to resolve those issues.

I’ve already been talking with my T about these issues. I know that I can keep from trying to solve her problems. But just because our marriage is over and I don’t trust her behavior, it doesn’t mean I don’t still love her and worry about her. It’s not a switch I can just flip. But I can control my actions. I have enough self awareness to be able to recognize that weakness and protect myself from her taking advantage of it. I let down my guard once, but I understand what’s at stake should I do it again. I’m not going to screw it up. I know she’s not good for me, and I won’t let her back into my life (except for the minimum required for co-parenting). 
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« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2021, 12:46:02 PM »


Does your wife have a written lease to the property?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2021, 12:54:12 PM »

We never had a lease or any written agreement. The only legal document pertaining to allowing her to stay there is the NC.
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« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2021, 04:17:14 PM »

It doesn't matter what you do or do not do - your wife will disappoint and hurt your son.  Her disorder makes her unable to follow through on promises and to have the executive function to clean up her act.  You can cover for her for a  time, but eventually your S will see what is going on.

My SD is 13.  I wish with everything in me that I could take away the pain her mom has caused her, but I can't.  All I can do is be there to comfort and validate and get her the help she needs to deal with the disillusionment.

Also, I totally get that you want to help your wife out, for her sake and for your son.  But it will never end.  When I met my h, he'd been divorced for almost 3 years and he was still running over at midnight to help his ex fix something (because it affected SD too).  When we got married, I put a stop to that.   His ex figured out how to solve her own problems.
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« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2021, 09:49:35 PM »

Worriedstepmom, I certainly hope she doesn’t disappoint our S, but I fully expect it. I was actually talking about with my mom this evening. I am happy to be the consistent parent, I welcome the role. Now that I’m not enduring the constant criticism I’ve noticed that I am much more even keeled.

I’m staying strong and declining STBX’s requests for any help. I slipped up once, but not again. The sooner she learns to solve her own problems the better. She’s been texting me asking me to change the oil in her truck and put on new wipers. I haven’t responded as that would violate the NC. I’m keeping track of all the times she breaks it.
It’s a little ironic that now that I’ve ended things how much she wants my help. She used to tell me regularly how much she didn’t need me for anything. But I suppose that’s common in pwBPD, especially during a divorce.
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« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2021, 07:15:07 AM »

The sooner she learns to solve her own problems the better.

And this applies to all areas of her life?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2021, 03:43:16 PM »

And this applies to all areas of her life?

That may be wishful thinking, but yeah, I do wish that would happen. I think the point is I should no longer give intermittent reinforcement and leave her to solve her problems on her own.
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« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2021, 03:50:17 PM »


Such as her housing choices?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2021, 04:12:52 PM »

Speaking of housing...she apparently didn’t like the offer my attorney sent regarding giving and moving a mobile home to a location away from here. She’s saying that she has rented a house ~60 miles away. She seems to expect that she can live wherever she wants and receive full rent from me. I assume the court will decide how much support is reasonable based on a variety of factors. This is where I’m grateful for a great attorney.
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« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2021, 04:32:13 PM »


Just know that your offers and negotiations are NOT binding until accepted by both parties.

It's not your job to worry about what she rents, how much or her expectations.  (read that a few times)

If she rents something and moves off without an agreement in place, it's not your problem.

Is there any agreement in place about sending her any amount of money?

Does she receive any money directly to her that is independent of you (disability or any other income).

And...personal/professional plea from FF.  Please don't ever authorize your attorney to offer her the mobile home or anything like that which is currently on or near your property.

60 miles away is a  decent distance.

 Virtual hug (click to insert in post) Virtual hug (click to insert in post) Virtual hug (click to insert in post) Virtual hug (click to insert in post)

Best,

FF
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« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2021, 09:39:22 PM »

I understand that until an agreement is reached and legally binding documents are signed, nothing is certain.

To be clear, I’m not worrying about what she rents or what her expectations are. That will be sorted out in the settlement process through negotiations.
I didn’t think I was saying that I was worrying about it. My intention was to give an update. Sorry for any confusion I might have caused.
Right now she has some money in a separate account. At some point it will be figured out what kind of support she will get.

She has no income, but I believe she has started the process to get disability, which seems to be just a matter of time. This could be good and bad. On hone hand she would have an income of sorts. On the other this might require more support from me and for a longer period of time.

The only offer we would make would be to move a mobile home off the property. This could be seen as a large asset, which could reduce the amount of support I would give her.

I trust my attorney to give me good advice on how to handle these things. She has a good reputation and continues to show me that she is working in my best interest. It helps that she is engaged to my brothers best friend, but she still holds her professional obligations above the personal ties.
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