Couples Therapy Experiences

[grootyoda]

First of all, I am back after being off the boards for about a month while recovering from surgery (which went well, by the way). My pwBPD spouse actually did relatively well through most of the process, all things considered, but now that things are moving back towards “normal mode” the signs of chaos are starting to show up again.

I’ll get to the point - We have been going to couples therapy with a DBT trained therapist for a few months at this point, and I wanted to see if some of the things that I’m feeling and observing sound familiar to others.

When we started this process, my pwBPD was open with her diagnosis and we spent most of that first session with her talking about her stuff and the therapist occasionally asking me how I felt about things. I pretty much expected that.

After that we each had a solo session, and the therapist was very direct with me about the fact that my pwBPD’s issues are not going to stop creating problems and I needed to get real with myself about what my deal breakers are. She noted that my pwBPD is very aware of her own issues for someone with BPD, and that is a reason for some optimism. However, her ability to work through the couples therapy process with me is going to be limited, especially in the areas of developing shared values and learning to compromise. Sobering, but pretty much what I expected.

We’ve now gotten into the actual process and I’m noticing some things that have me feeling more confused and hopeless than I initially expected.

1) my pwBPD does not ask me many questions and frequently speaks “for me” regarding what I think and feel about our disagreements. This puts me in a position where our conversations do not leave a lot of room for me to actually express how I feel and what I want, and I feel like I am starting from a place where I’m essentially arguing about what my opinion is.

In the last session, I responded to this in a way that made her say I was being confrontational, defensive, and dismissive (I’m not sure what I said or how I said it, but I think I was about midway into my first sentence). That’s when a light bulb went off for me that I’m not really a participant in our discussions.

2) My pwBPD is really good at articulating the values she wants her partner to have (which sound like a very idealized version of the values I aspire to), but either cannot or will not define the values that guide her.

This one is not super surprising either, but the realization I had during our last session is that it is really hard to compromise when you have no idea what set of values or priorities guide the other person. The phrases that kept coming to my mind were “it feels like I’m being asked to compromise with myself” and “I don’t know what I am supposed to be compromising about”. Is this a common frustration people feel?

3) my pwBPD is really good at indicating to me that she hears what I am saying and cares about it, but the behavior that follows is so opposed to the needs I’ve just expressed that I just end up feeling like I’m not being listened to.

Example - I stated that it was really important that we discuss rearranging the house, especially when it involves my personal belongings and space, because I need to feel comfortable in my home  and familiar with where my things are so that I can find them easily. The exact same night, while I was in the shower, she took the rug out of my office and swapped it with the indoor/outdoor rug we use in the living room (each of which we specifically chose to meet specific needs). What I can’t figure out is if this is just a case of her not really registering what I say or if it is deliberate boundary pushing behavior to see how much I “mean it”. I’m not sure what to do with either possibility, honestly.

Anyway, I guess what I am looking for is some shared experience and perspective. Has anyone navigated couples therapy successfully, and what words of wisdom would you offer?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I am not in a couple with someone with BPD. My pwBPD is my mother and while I know the relationships are very different, I just had to answer this post, because you touched three points I have been thinking about A LOT in the last few weeks, since my last and final exchange with my mother.

Also I am glad your surgery went well (by the way).

When we started this process, my pwBPD was open with her diagnosis and we spent most of that first session with her talking about her stuff and the therapist occasionally asking me how I felt about things. I pretty much expected that.

My mother will acknowledge what she is, what she calls a strong character (!), and that she is very emotional. She is not aware she is BPD, rather she thinks of herself as a HSP (a very abusive HSP if you ask me...)

In all cases, I think it is similar for her where she will acknowledge her "imperfection", but to her : we have to accept her like she is, no matter what, while she gets to critic us and blame us for who we are... She has a right to scream, while we are basically not allowed to show any sort of emotion (even pain). When we do, she says we are using her as a punching bag...

I think this is very commong in BPD : double standard to keep the guilt and the shame at bay for them... They know what they are, but they are never the problem. They can say they are part of the problems, but still have us carry 99% of it... The 1% they carry is to acknowledge they are imperfect.

For my mother, her only problem is she is emotional and because she is what she is, I have to accept it and modify my own behavior, while she gets to accept her imperfection... Double standard.

Basically no matter what I say, it comes back to : if you don't like my imperfections, you can leave, but if you stay, you will have to agree that you are the one who is too rational and need to change for our relationship to work... Even when she is the one triggering my C-PTSD by screaming at my face.  

So I hear you...she can acknowledge the PD, but there is no willingness to try and change, is there?

1) my pwBPD does not ask me many questions and frequently speaks “for me” regarding what I think and feel about our disagreements. This puts me in a position where our conversations do not leave a lot of room for me to actually express how I feel and what I want, and I feel like I am starting from a place where I’m essentially arguing about what my opinion is.

Mind reading. It is a developmental arrest, very frequent in BPD, you can look it up.

My mother does it too. After an event at her house, I wrote her a letter explaining what happened for me, my C-PTSD. She wrote me back a letter called "her facts", and in this letter, she told me what happened, namely that I was missing my husband and took it out on her. Nowhere in our exchange did she ever stop to realize that she was mind reading erroneously what I went through, even after I plainly explained to her what happened for me...

Mind-reading can be corrected I think for BPD, but they first have to realise that they are doing it. What did your therapist say? Did she tell your wife she was doing mind reading? That she couldn't possibly know better than you how you felt?

2) My pwBPD is really good at articulating the values she wants her partner to have (which sound like a very idealized version of the values I aspire to), but either cannot or will not define the values that guide her.

The reason she cannot articulate the values that guide her is because she is not aware of them.

BPD is characterized by a low sense of self and a feeling of emptiness... She will never know, truly, who she is, without someone else in the room to tell her, or make her feel she is something... That's how I see it anyway.

I feel my mother cannot be alone, else, it is like she stops existing. She needs constant validation, constant attention, constant reassurance that we see her, that she has value. She doesn't see it nor feel it by herself.

3) my pwBPD is really good at indicating to me that she hears what I am saying and cares about it, but the behavior that follows is so opposed to the needs I’ve just expressed that I just end up feeling like I’m not being listened to.

Example - I stated that it was really important that we discuss rearranging the house, especially when it involves my personal belongings and space, because I need to feel comfortable in my home  and familiar with where my things are so that I can find them easily. The exact same night, while I was in the shower, she took the rug out of my office and swapped it with the indoor/outdoor rug we use in the living room (each of which we specifically chose to meet specific needs). What I can’t figure out is if this is just a case of her not really registering what I say or if it is deliberate boundary pushing behavior to see how much I “mean it”. I’m not sure what to do with either possibility, honestly.

My mother does that, especially when she is dysregulated, but notice I will not engage. She will start baiting, and baiting, and baiting. She prefers me angry than disconnected and neutral. If she feels I am disconnected, she will try to make me react by pushing boundaries ... Like a three years old looking for attention.

Anyway, I guess what I am looking for is some shared experience and perspective. Has anyone navigated couples therapy successfully, and what words of wisdom would you offer?

The example you provided are all directly linked to the PD, to the fact she is borderline, and I would concur with your therapist that if she is the real deal, then chances of improving her symptoms are slim. I now suspect a lot of the healed BPD we hear about were maybe not BPD to begin with, but maybe just borderline traits or C-PTSD, which can both be developped when we have a BPD mother. The only thing you have power over are your own boundaries and enforcing them, even when they are being pushed.

My question though is : does the therapist helps her see what she is doing during a session? The mind-reading, the pushing boundaries, the not listening to you and interrupting you mid-sentences?

[PeteWitsend]

The phrases that kept coming to my mind were “it feels like I’m being asked to compromise with myself” and “I don’t know what I am supposed to be compromising about”. Is this a common frustration people feel?

Hi, and welcome back.  glad to hear you're recovering.

In my experience, marital counseling (MC) produced some minor, short term benefits, earlier in our marriage, when the dynamic & excess conflict wasn't really established.  We went to three (3) different MC during our marriage.  

Basically, if MC felt like she couldn't control "the narrative" during the sessions, she'd resort to screaming and yelling at whoever she felt was not going along with her.  On one occasion that was me.  On another it was the counselor herself (and BPDxw refused to see that counselor again).  

So, yes, I suppose it was similar to your concern about compromising against yourself... really they want to set the agenda, and it's all about protecting themselves about the perceived (and needless to say irrational) threat that counseling presents to their fragile self-image.  They can't allow themselves to ever be wrong, at least without you giving them an out by also agreeing to be wrong.

The last point sounds harmless enough, but really undermines everything, because you will always need to give them an "out" by taking responsibility for their behavior, even when they are knowingly violating one of your boundaries.

... while I was in the shower, she took the rug out of my office and swapped it with the indoor/outdoor rug we use in the living room (each of which we specifically chose to meet specific needs). What I can’t figure out is if this is just a case of her not really registering what I say or if it is deliberate boundary pushing behavior to see how much I “mean it”. I’m not sure what to do with either possibility, honestly.

I would say it's deliberate boundary pushing.  And it may feel odd to acknowledge they have that level of "organization" when it comes to manipulating their partners, given how "disorganized" everything else in their lives is, but it may just be learned behavior, through trial and error, over many years.  

Your independent thoughts and personal identity are a threat to their irrational fears of abandonment, so to that end, they will do everything they can to attempt to control your behavior and thoughts, and blur the lines between you and them as individuals.  

BPDxw would often ask me how I thought or felt about something, and if it was not exactly how she felt or thought about something, she would get irrationally angry and spin it into a referendum as how I wasn't committed to her and was going to leave.

An absurd example: once my daughter was reading a book, and on the last page, there was a picture of three cars: a sports car, a taxi, and an RV.  We asked my daughter what her favorite car was, and she pointed to the taxi, and BPDxw pointed to the RV.  I said mine was the sports car.  BPDxw made a comment to our daughter that this showed I was selfish and didn't think of myself as part of a family!  

As to what you do about it... I think in every case, you have to assert your boundary.  Here, I'd suggest mentioning you just explained to her you need to have things a certain way for [reasons], and ask her to move it back.  

And then deal with the reaction by using the sort of de-escalation techniques they teach in books like Stop Walking on Eggshells, or this website.

If you don't fight to establish a boundary, she will keep pushing you there.  

It seems like some people find this tolerable enough to stay in the relationship; some don't.  It depends, I suppose, on their level of patience, and how extreme the pwBPD's reactions are.  Some react very badly to boundary enforcement; some grumble and move on.  

[grootyoda]

My question though is : does the therapist helps her see what she is doing during a session? The mind-reading, the pushing boundaries, the not listening to you and interrupting you mid-sentences?

Thanks for the response. I'll address this one about the therapist for the time being and think on the other things you offered. The therapist has been pretty clear that she is going to primarily let us go through exercises while she records our conversations and helps move us along for the first chunk of therapy. It is part of the couples therapy approach she is certified in. For the time being, that means there is not a ton of feedback on our individual behavior in these conversations. She was really clear with me during my solo session that this would be the case and that I was probably going to feel frustrated with the exercises she is having us do.

The bottom line on that is she is actively avoiding calling either one of us out on things too much during the moment. All of those things you mentioned are data points she is recording to develop next steps for our relationship's treatment plan. I trust the process (I did my homework on various approaches before settling on this therapist), but it's definitely a tough thing right now.

She did have us do an exercise where we pick an issue and take turns interviewing the other person with a structured set of questions. I liked that one because of how clearly it defined roles in the conversation. Things went really well and I learned a lot about my pwBPD's triggers when I was asking questions. It was a little less productive when the roles were reversed. The rules are very clear that you cannot comment, argue, or insert a response to anything your partner says when you are the questioner, and a lot of what I said amounted to "I do not feel like I am being heard or listened unless there is real follow-through, and right now I do not feel heard." She said that was hard to listen to but ultimately fair and something she'd take to heart after our session...but that was also the night of the sneaky-house-rearranging incident.

[grootyoda]

I would say it's deliberate boundary pushing.  And it may feel odd to acknowledge they have that level of "organization" when it comes to manipulating their partners, given how "disorganized" everything else in their lives is, but it may just be learned behavior, through trial and error, over many years.  

Your independent thoughts and personal identity are a threat to their irrational fears of abandonment, so to that end, they will do everything they can to attempt to control your behavior and thoughts, and blur the lines between you and them as individuals.  

BPDxw would often ask me how I thought or felt about something, and if it was not exactly how she felt or thought about something, she would get irrationally angry and spin it into a referendum as how I wasn't committed to her and was going to leave.

An absurd example: once my daughter was reading a book, and on the last page, there was a picture of three cars: a sports car, a taxi, and an RV.  We asked my daughter what her favorite car was, and she pointed to the taxi, and BPDxw pointed to the RV.  I said mine was the sports car.  BPDxw made a comment to our daughter that this showed I was selfish and didn't think of myself as part of a family!  

As to what you do about it... I think in every case, you have to assert your boundary.  Here, I'd suggest mentioning you just explained to her you need to have things a certain way for [reasons], and ask her to move it back.  

And then deal with the reaction by using the sort of de-escalation techniques they teach in books like Stop Walking on Eggshells, or this website.

If you don't fight to establish a boundary, she will keep pushing you there.  

It seems like some people find this tolerable enough to stay in the relationship; some don't.  It depends, I suppose, on their level of patience, and how extreme the pwBPD's reactions are.  Some react very badly to boundary enforcement; some grumble and move on.  

First, thanks for the good wishes, it is good to be up and running again. To your point about boundaries, that's pretty much what I've been feeling is the case. In terms of responses to boundary enforcement... mostly she is a delayed, but very loud, grumble and move on boundary pusher. She'll typically agree/apologize in the moment and act very contrite, then come back the next day with all the reasons I am being unreasonable and hypocritical and <insert scorekeeping snippet here>. Eventually she'll move on, but it's also an incremental "well, if I can't do this, let's see if I can still get away with that because it technically isn't this" kind of process. I have to stay very mindful about how I phrase my boundaries because of this, because what I say will be taken as literally or non-literally as needed to serve my pwBPD's purposes down the road.

[PeteWitsend]

... I have to stay very mindful about how I phrase my boundaries because of this, because what I say will be taken as literally or non-literally as needed to serve my pwBPD's purposes down the road.

It's absolutely exhausting, isn't it?  But I'd add, don't get too wrapped up in the labels and the psychological explanations of what is happening and what you need to do.  They're helpful to explain things and analyze what's going on, but can get oppressive if - for example - you end up spending too much time worrying about whether you enforced a boundary, and why she's doing XYZ. 

If basic needs are being met, don't stress over the psychological stuff.  Consider whether you're getting what you need, and your kid(s) (I think you had one child?) have what they need.  Your BPD partner will never have what she thinks she needs, so as long as you meet the basic human needs with her (food, shelter, water, etc.) consider it good enough.     

Also, it's good that you have a counselor who recognizes your situation & that there is a mental disorder underlying the problems in your relationship.  It's unlikely MC is helpful in addressing the serious issues caused by BPD, but at least he or she is not going to waste your time.  Or try to "both sides" the source of conflict, and therefore lead you in circles. 

As someone mentioned to me when I was first learning about BPD, MC typically involves focusing on improving communications in a relationship, not addressing underlying mental illness or personality disorders.

[PeteWitsend]

After I posted that, I was thinking about "boundary pushing" and I remembered this absurd story from my marriage.  Now, again, was it boundary testing, or just a habit she continued for years?  I assume BPDxw knew what she was doing and was doing it intentionally, although, of course I don't know for sure... but it was like some kind of bizarre psychological games.  You call them out, and then you're the crazy one, right?  Or if not crazy, the one making a big deal out of nothing, and need to learn to chill out.

Anyways, as I've posted elsewhere, BPDxw did not get along with my mom.  And would go out of her way to pick fights with her, and pick fights with me about my mom.  

Earlier in my marriage, before this was "a thing" I would sometimes share stories about my childhood/mom/family with BPDxw... as all couples do!  

Once I was slicing a tomato and mentioned to BPDxw that when I was a kid, I would slice tomatoes vertically, instead of horizontally, until one day when my mom came over holding up a half-sliced tomato and told me to stop slicing them like that, and they were juicier if sliced the correct way.  

I laughed when telling the story, but BPDxw made some insulting comment about my mom, and then asked why I would listen to someone like her.  

Note: Here was a point when I should have enforced a "boundary" and told BPDxw not to speak about my mom - or any of my family members - like that.  But even then I knew this would immediately provoke an angry reaction, claims I always took other people's side against my wife, and other nonsense.  And I was sometimes just too tired to fight every battle, so I shook my head and walked away.

Anyways, fast forward 4-5 years and we're divorced.  I'm making my lunch for work & slicing a tomato, and realized that for the rest of our marriage, whenever BPDxw made my lunch, she included a tomato sliced vertically with the sandwich.  Low-level boundary testing every chance she could get, and no mundane daily task was ever basic enough to pass up a chance to pick a fight over.

[grootyoda]

It's absolutely exhausting, isn't it?  But I'd add, don't get too wrapped up in the labels and the psychological explanations of what is happening and what you need to do.  They're helpful to explain things and analyze what's going on, but can get oppressive if - for example - you end up spending too much time worrying about whether you enforced a boundary, and why she's doing XYZ. 

If basic needs are being met, don't stress over the psychological stuff.  Consider whether you're getting what you need, and your kid(s) (I think you had one child?) have what they need.  Your BPD partner will never have what she thinks she needs, so as long as you meet the basic human needs with her (food, shelter, water, etc.) consider it good enough.     

Also, it's good that you have a counselor who recognizes your situation & that there is a mental disorder underlying the problems in your relationship.  It's unlikely MC is helpful in addressing the serious issues caused by BPD, but at least he or she is not going to waste your time.  Or try to "both sides" the source of conflict, and therefore lead you in circles. 

As someone mentioned to me when I was first learning about BPD, MC typically involves focusing on improving communications in a relationship, not addressing underlying mental illness or personality disorders.

Thanks for the perspective, that's really helpful advice in terms of not getting too wrapped up in all the psychology of it all. I tend to over-strategize and over-analyze what I'm doing and saying to figure out where I'm getting my messaging wrong, when the reality is that I probably am being perfectly clear (or clear enough) and it just doesn't matter because I am trying to apply logic to an illogical mind. I guess part of the acceptance process is just understanding that most of what I do and say has very little impact and move on with my daily life. It feels cold to look at things that way, but the truth is I'm never going to really get through to my pwBPD regarding my boundaries. All I can do is set them and enforce them without feeling obligated to re-explain them.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Once I was slicing a tomato and mentioned to BPDxw that when I was a kid, I would slice tomatoes vertically, instead of horizontally, until one day when my mom came over holding up a half-sliced tomato and told me to stop slicing them like that, and they were juicier if sliced the correct way.  

I laughed when telling the story, but BPDxw made some insulting comment about my mom, and then asked why I would listen to someone like her.  

Note: Here was a point when I should have enforced a "boundary" and told BPDxw not to speak about my mom - or any of my family members - like that.  But even then I knew this would immediately provoke an angry reaction, claims I always took other people's side against my wife, and other nonsense.  And I was sometimes just too tired to fight every battle, so I shook my head and walked away.

Anyways, fast forward 4-5 years and we're divorced.  I'm making my lunch for work & slicing a tomato, and realized that for the rest of our marriage, whenever BPDxw made my lunch, she included a tomato sliced vertically with the sandwich.  Low-level boundary testing every chance she could get, and no mundane daily task was ever basic enough to pass up a chance to pick a fight over.

I have to say ... Your mother was right. So many wasted tomatoes... Can't believe you even ever tried to cut them vertically to begin with !    

More seriously though .. this story is crazy-making. It is the kind of story a lot of people who don't know BPD would brush off, but the underlying message is actually very hurtful.

[waverider]

The bottom line on that is she is actively avoiding calling either one of us out on things too much during the moment. All of those things you mentioned are data points she is recording to develop next steps for our relationship's treatment plan. I trust the process (I did my homework on various approaches before settling on this therapist), but it's definitely a tough thing right now.

This dont rock the boat policy to start with of therapists can backfire in my experience. The reason is pwBPD rarely complete a full course of therapy so don't get to the point where reality is pointed out. The take out for the pwBPD then is that they were not contradicted therefore their view must have been valid, or even confirmed, by the therapist, reinforcing they are right, and you are wrong.

I have the same issue with general Drs, as my wife is also an obsessive hypochondriac, she claims outrageous ailments, Drs can see they cant fix it so they humour her to avoid upsetting her. She walks out convinced Dr just confirmed her own diagnosis

End result is I feel frustrated and it looks as I if am the only one who think she has a problem. >> I am now a persecutor and she is victim, and she has it on medical authority (in her mind).

A pwBPDs motive for therapy is not to improve their own thought processes but simply seeking validation for their own delusions. Ultimately you cant help someone who doesnt want to be helped.

My pwBPD initially accepted diagnosis of BPD but is now convinced it is PTSD, mainly because that more implicitly implies being a victim.

By the way CPTSD is quite common amongst those who live with pwBPD

[15years]

The phrases that kept coming to my mind were “it feels like I’m being asked to compromise with myself” and “I don’t know what I am supposed to be compromising about”. Is this a common frustration people feel?

If I understand these correctly, I often feel the same way.

My W makes me promise things but I'm not sure what I'm promising. She might say, "will you be more careful with me in the future?" and if I agree she will promise to be careful with me, which means not physically violent which is the only bad thing she think she's done to me. But me not being careful with her is hard to figure out exactly what it means. It might be  that I'm not validating or soothing her the correct way. So I will break that promise no matter what and she will feel justified to get physically violent.

Thanks for the perspective, that's really helpful advice in terms of not getting too wrapped up in all the psychology of it all. I tend to over-strategize and over-analyze what I'm doing and saying to figure out where I'm getting my messaging wrong, when the reality is that I probably am being perfectly clear (or clear enough) and it just doesn't matter because I am trying to apply logic to an illogical mind. I guess part of the acceptance process is just understanding that most of what I do and say has very little impact and move on with my daily life. It feels cold to look at things that way, but the truth is I'm never going to really get through to my pwBPD regarding my boundaries. All I can do is set them and enforce them without feeling obligated to re-explain them.

You can't stop being an analytical person though.
I would also consider myself to be analytical and I recently started actively analyzing my own emotional responses to things happening instead of trying to appease her. Although I'll never stop analyzing her, I'll at least be focusing energy on myself too, not just her.

[grootyoda]

If I understand these correctly, I often feel the same way.

My W makes me promise things but I'm not sure what I'm promising. She might say, "will you be more careful with me in the future?" and if I agree she will promise to be careful with me, which means not physically violent which is the only bad thing she think she's done to me. But me not being careful with her is hard to figure out exactly what it means. It might be  that I'm not validating or soothing her the correct way. So I will break that promise no matter what and she will feel justified to get physically violent.

I relate to that. My pwBPD has gotten better about the whole promises thing, but there’s definitely a lot of probing during casual conversation to get a comment about something we’re actively negotiating about, then a surprise follow up later on that somehow I have committed to an entire course of action I wasn’t aware of. This is really tricky for me because I end up questioning whether or not I did say what she said I said and if I’m actually the one gaslighting as a result. That’s been hard for me to navigate and any advice on how to keep myself clear on what I’ve committed to would be really helpful.

 Just this morning we had an argument about a home project we’ve been talking about doing for months. The last time it came up we carefully laid out all the things that would need to happen, how long they would take, and made a multi day plan that I wrote down. I ended up having the day off today for a few appointments I have, and she asked a few days ago if we could start on the project. I said this day wasn’t really what I had in mind, but that I have enough time off accumulated that I can schedule a few other days in the coming weeks once she knows what her schedule is.

Flash forward to today, I mention that I’d like to go do something fun today once I get done with my morning stuff, and she brings the project up again and says I told her we could start on it today. I got really reactive and defensive about it because I was positive I hadn’t said what she claimed I was saying, and that’s the piece I’m really trying to work on in myself.

[khibomsis]

Once I started keeping everything in writing, things began turning around for us. At times I would make us both sign it that this what was agreed and she'd still rewrite history when she dysregulated. As long as she was gaslighting (and sometimes they really can't remember right) successfully, I was being forced to live in her BPD reality. Once I had a grip on my reality I was able to gently lead her into it. My pwBPD was in therapy and highly motivated to get better. So was I, and I journaled religiously. That was the only way we got out of the Twilight Zone

[grootyoda]

Well, folks, I’m back.

Where to start with the updates. Couples therapy has not been successful in the ways I hoped it would be. On one hand, my pwBPD has been a little more consistent in terms of emotional regulation on the whole, but things have taken some very strange turns otherwise.

In terms of the therapy itself, my pwBPD has, from my perspective, kind of won the T over to her side while misrepresenting our conversations. I brought up that I was unsure how much of our difficulty navigating disagreement was attributable to BP splitting during our last session, and the T stated that this is why she doesn’t like diagnoses. I was floored, because during our very first individual session she and I discussed the realities of BPD and she was very direct with me about how that was going to impact our therapy.

The T pointed out that she’d seen a lot of progress from my pwBPD, but on my end she’s seeing a lot of negative sentiment override. This felt like side taking to me, but I’m doing my best to try and take the feedback and sit with it. I gave some consideration to the truth in her observations and I’m working hard to not be so defensive about it.

Flash forward to last week. My pwBPD and I were sitting in bed when I noticed she was texting with someone she previously had an emotional affair with. We had decided at the time it was happening that she needed to cut off contact, and she has previously affirmed that she was honoring that agreement. This time, though, she admitted that she never intended to cut off contact, didn’t really think she had an emotional affair, and had lied to me about their communication over the course of the past year. She said anything she previously said about wanting to be with him was probably because she was mad at me about something. I told her that the lying is the part I have the biggest issue with and that is a serious breach of trust that makes it hard for me to believe what she says now. I slept on the couch a few days, told her we needed to talk about this with T, and then figure out how to proceed from there.

At this point, I’m pretty much at a loss. I feel like I must be the crazy one because my pwBPD says that her own T doesn’t think what she’s doing is a problem and instead focused on why I’m reacting the way I am. At the same time, a few nights ago she told me her dad was worried that I am abusing her (for the record, I’m not) because I always seem to be agitated when he calls. I actually get the agitation bit, because my pwBPD frequently will video call with him while we are in the middle of a tense conversation, while I’m changing, bathing our child, or at otherwise very inconvenient  times. When I pointed this out, she related that she’d explained that to her dad as me “wanting to be warned so I can compose myself” before I’m on camera. This felt like another major mischaracterization to me, and when I tried to clarify my boundaries on video calls during family time, she backtracked and said she’d actually worded things differently to her dad.

So that’s a lot. I talked to my brother (my closest confidant) about this yesterday, and asked for a blunt opinion. He acknowledged the areas I definitely need to work on - letting conversations go when things escalate, being more gracious to myself and others - but also offered the harsh truth that he doesn’t see how I can possibly sustain this situation much longer as it stands.

If I didn’t have a young daughter in the picture, I’m really not sure I would be willing to keep putting effort into the situation. I’m deeply concerned about the impact my pwBPD is going to have on her based on how I feel all the time myself, and I don’t know how much good I’m doing by trying to improve the relationship. I don’t have a lot of close friends anymore who I am in regular contact with, which has become pretty isolating.  I feel very very stuck.

[Cat Familiar]

That she has been able to self regulate her emotions is profound. So yes, that’s a big improvement.

Did you bring up “BPD splitting” in a joint session? If so, I can understand why the therapist might have said what she did; she wants to retain your wife’s trust.

As far as you, of course you have “negative sentiment”—you probably feel very burned out dealing with your wife’s BPD. That your therapist said this (presumably in a joint session?) indicates that she is trying to keep your wife engaged in the process. Notwendy’s experience with therapy was similar in that the therapist focused on her, so that she did not alienate her husband and make him disinclined to continue to participate.

So your wife has lied about the emotional affair and has continued contact? And has mischaracterized you to her father! No wonder you have some “negative sentiment.”

Perhaps it’s time to reconnect with some of those close friends whose friendships you’ve let slide. It seems you need some connection with people outside of your relationship to keep you on an even keel.

[grootyoda]

What you said about the therapist makes sense and actually makes me feel a lot less anxious about what is going on there.

Where I could use some help is managing the negative sentiment override, I guess. It definitely makes sense that I’d be stuck in a pretty negative mindset, but it does not help me redirect my energy and efforts into more productive conversations/activities.

I opened up to a men’s breakfast group I go to once a week with a few of the guys from my church yesterday about the FIL stuff, and getting vulnerable with them actually prompted the others to share some of their own history, which I’m hopeful means I’m starting to rebuild some solid friendships to keep that “even keel” you mentioned. I was able to laugh at myself a bit, which hasn’t happened in a while, and that felt good.

So I guess one of my next steps is to ask what I can do to navigate my own negativity during our next therapy session? We’re planning to talk to the T about the emotional affair stuff (was it or wasn’t it?) and the accompanying lying, and my biggest fear is that I’m not going to be taken seriously about my concerns and feelings of broken trust, and it’s just going to be dismissed as another case of negative sentiment override. At the same time, I want to make sure I really am clear headed and avoid being self-righteous about the whole thing. Thoughts?

[Pook075]

I'm not sure if this will be helpful, but my daughter was diagnosed with BPD about 8 years ago and my doctor suspects that my wife shares the same diagnosis.  My wife and I haven't been to therapy yet (she's resistant), but I've seen over a dozen counselors and therapists with my daughter.  Each of them have their own styles, focuses, etc. and some seem genuinely more helpful than others.

However, the therapists and doctors that have helped me personally the most were the least effective for my daughter.  In fact, there's a psychologist we refer to as "Dr. Happy", because he is always smiling and even if you're horrible to him, he laughs it off and sees it as a poor attempt to manipulate.  I LOVE this doctor and he taught me so much, yet my kid absolutely despised him because he knew exactly how to challenge my daughter.

But is that a good thing?  My kid didn't trust this doc, didn't respect him, and while a few of his points are still with her today, they didn't help much at all in the moment (other than taking her anger away from my wife and I, while directing it at the doc).

So I'll say this.  Yes, it's group therapy.  Yes, you need help with coping skills as well.  At the same time though, you're there to support your pwBPD and it's not about you.  The doc isn't there to validate your feelings or struggles, even though they probably have tons of empathy for you and understand what you're going through.

My daughter's best two therapists over the years knew how to show empathy and understanding, but also nudge her just enough to see other possibilities.  This was all in 1:1 sessions though, and I don't think a lot of the realizations would have been possible with my wife or I in the room.  Today, my daughter and I are best friends- we talk about absolutely everything and she knows that I love her unconditionally.  I personally never, ever ever thought that this would be possible since I was who she hated most throughout her childhood, teenage years, and early adult life (she's mid-20's now).

For my wife, this is a very new potential diagnosis, so I can't comment there either way.  But I will say that my wife and my daughter are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT people with COMPLETELY DIFFERENT values in life.  The only thing in common is their fear or rejection and abandonment, leading them to compartmentalize their feelings and silently suffer.  I have complete faith that my wife will return to me though and we'll work through this together.

I hope that helps!

[grootyoda]

Thank you very very much, Pook075, I really think I needed to hear that. It is extremely easy to spend my mental energy wishing someone else would call my pwBPD out on all their “stuff”, but it sounds like what you and Cat are both saying is that I really have to just give up on the idea of that ever happening because that kind of approach to holding her accountable is just never ever going to work. At the same time, as the person who does not have BPD, I do have to be an adult and accept calls to accountability from our T because they are just trying to help me and my pwBPD do better in our relationship and have less dysfunction, stress, and drama. It’s a hard thing to let go of.

Any tips for how I can be better at recognizing when the “righteous indignation” and its accompanying negativity is creeping up and how to handle it more productively?

[Pook075]

Thank you very very much, Pook075, I really think I needed to hear that. It is extremely easy to spend my mental energy wishing someone else would call my pwBPD out on all their “stuff”, but it sounds like what you and Cat are both saying is that I really have to just give up on the idea of that ever happening because that kind of approach to holding her accountable is just never ever going to work. At the same time, as the person who does not have BPD, I do have to be an adult and accept calls to accountability from our T because they are just trying to help me and my pwBPD do better in our relationship and have less dysfunction, stress, and drama. It’s a hard thing to let go of.

Any tips for how I can be better at recognizing when the “righteous indignation” and its accompanying negativity is creeping up and how to handle it more productively?

I'm not an expert, but again, I can tell you that my wife ad my daughter are very different people.  Part of that is age and maturity, for sure.  For instance, when we first got married 24 years ago, my wife would implode over minor disagreements and at times become physical.  Now she does the exact opposite, she shuts down completely.  The shutting down was what led to her leaving 10 weeks ago because she got stuck in a negative feedback loop, replaying our worst moments over and over again.

For my daughter, she's very quick to explode when she feels challenged or unappreciated.  Her highs and lows are much more frequent as well.  Through cognitive behavioral therapy, she's learned to reach out before going too far one way or the other, and I can often help her level out just through a conversation.  But there's also times where she shares beliefs that blow me away- they are so far beyond reality or so warped, it shocks me. 

I'll reply with something like, "I'm not sure if you've fully thought that through..." and try to leave it at that; put it back on her to analyze that thought.  Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but she trusts me completely (at least for the past 3-4 months) and I don't ever bring any judgement. 

The only time I'll correct her is when she says something like, "So and so hates me for who I am."  To me, that has to be addressed with something like, "It might feel that way sometimes, but they love you very much."

One other thing I can tell you is that both my wife and daughter love completely- their distance or anger is not because they're just halfway in the relationship or anything like that.  They just process emotions differently and sometimes it's counter productive.  In other instances, it appears like they just don't care.  Sometimes they can't be 100% all-in on something, it's just too big to deal with in the moment.

Again, I hope that helps.

[waverider]

Thank you very very much, Pook075, I really think I needed to hear that. It is extremely easy to spend my mental energy wishing someone else would call my pwBPD out on all their “stuff”, but it sounds like what you and Cat are both saying is that I really have to just give up on the idea of that ever happening because that kind of approach to holding her accountable is just never ever going to work. At the same time, as the person who does not have BPD, I do have to be an adult and accept calls to accountability from our T because they are just trying to help me and my pwBPD do better in our relationship and have less dysfunction, stress, and drama. It’s a hard thing to let go of.

Any tips for how I can be better at recognizing when the “righteous indignation” and its accompanying negativity is creeping up and how to handle it more productively?

This is why it may be better to get your own therapy just for you rather than using effectively your wifes therapy session for you. What is going to validate you is going to invalidate your wife. Which is probably the biggest stumbling block of couples therapy

[Ergonomics]

I posted in another thread, but this was my experience in therapy:

Both individual and couples therapy didn't really work for me, and I've spent a lot researching and working with the supposed best ones out there in my area. So I wanted to see what I did wrong there.

I don't really have good feedback for you as I could not make therapy work, but these are some of the reasons why the couples therapy did not work for me:

- My wife would open up during the therapy session, but as soon as we went home, it was a different story. Not sure what was happening there, but it's like everything we talked about during the session would be moot or forgotten.

- The diagnosis was spot on, but the treatments and next steps that we got were requiring a lot of willpower. We could do it for a while, but it just felt unnatural and really difficult to do. It's like trying to force love. It felt fake.

- I know the therapist tried hard, but eventually, as we went deeper, it became more and more like sides were being chosen. This was our fear when we first signed up for therapy, and even then, we found ourselves falling into it.

- But the biggest reason I think was me. I went into therapy already having diagnosed my partner, myself and what I thought was going on, and that really poisoned the whole thing.

[grootyoda]

Again, I really appreciate hearing about everyone else’s experiences. It gives me a lot of perspective on how to approach couples therapy, including realizing that there’s only so far that we can really go with it. I’ve got a session with my individual therapist next week and I feel like I’ve got a stronger foundation to put in the work on that front to help myself get and stay healthier.

Ergonomics, what you said about things being one way in therapy and totally forgotten outside of it was pretty familiar to me. What I’m slowly realizing, or maybe re-realizing, is that I’m not going to really make any progress trying to hash out agreements and resolutions with an expectation that they’ll be remembered and respected consistently. Instead, I have to work on how I set and enforce boundaries without invalidating feelings. That’s the tough part because I get really indignant about people not playing by “the rules”, especially when they were involved in making them.

I guess one more focused question I have (and I’ll talk this one through with my therapist as well), is what to do about the massive feeling of anxiety I get about things I’ve said getting twisted and turned around. The anticipation of that happening gets me really worked up and then it turns into panic, righteous indignance, or some weird mashup of the two. That really is just the worst.