Blame for lack of emotional intimacy

[truthdevotee]

pwBDP touched her underlying shame when her step mom called her today. She noticed the internal shame without projecting it into me. After about 1 minute it started becoming all about me again. But there was that moment where she truly felt shame and vulnerably said "i feel"

I know I'm capable of emotional intimacy and i see that she believes I'm not due to setting limits. I said to her by text as I took the boys out to escape the chaos at home:

"
I'm here for you as you walk through the inner discovery of the emotions underlying the name calling and anger.
The name calling and anger are on the surface. We will find emotional connection as you come into contact with the deeper level of emotions.
I have my own limits on the amount of name calling and anger I can handle.
"

Now she continues in the usual pattern of blaming everything on me, under the heading" you aren't capable of emotional intimacy"

This bothers me a bit so I'm wondering if it's that I need to be more patient with her. But I'm 50/50 about that... I don't know... After so much name calling and anger I get exhausted and she hates that I say I need space right now but let's talk at xyz time of the day

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Notwendy]

How someone perceives emotional intimacy can vary.  There's the idea of "love languages" - for some people it's words of affirmation, for others, quality time, acts of service and so on.

First, during a deregulation and name calling, or if she's afeeling shame, that's not the time to attempt a discussion about the relationship. Neither of you are in a good space. Once you both are calmer, you can ask " please help me to understand what you are seeking when you say "emotional intimacy"?

If the conversation goes down the road of name calling, then don't continue it. If she calls you names, don't react- but also you don't have to listen to it. You could say " I asked you sincerely, I am interested in hearing what you would like, but I can't continue a conversation with name calling" "we can talk later when we can do it without name calling" and then walk away.

[truthdevotee]

Thank you Notwendy. It's very helpful to distinguish the right time to talk about the relationship. It clarifies that I'm not doing some incorrectly. It's exhausting as I think I've been getting into JADE today. She's so angry when I state that I am too overwhelmed to talk, even when I affirm we can talk another time later in the day. I didn't sleep well last night so I'm struggling in particular today with her incessant demands for my attention. I've blurted out a couple of subconscious things that triggered her I think due to this feeling tired and probably unconscious resentment.

I took sick leave today. Also got myself tested for covid.

[Notwendy]

Your changing your behavior can increase anxiety for both of you. You know what is familiar and what to expect with the familiar patterns. You also know that appeasement works, temporarily, to give you both a moment of peace. You give in to her, she may calm down, you have a bit of relief from the pressure and fear of her mood.

Changing this pattern puts both of you into the unknown. It's not comfortable and it's risky for both of you since you don't know the outcome. But you do know the outcome of doing what you usually do. If you want to change that, it involves an unknown outcome.

You each have the task of managing your own emotions. It can be trial and error. She knows what worked for her until now- so it makes sense she will try it- name calling, being controlling, she's trying to relieve her uncomfortable feelings.

You are too. Can you manage your own discomfort? That's the key- to be able to manage your own emotions such as fear and anxiety. Then you would be less likely to react to hers. But it's a learning curve. Perhaps the best advice would be to do it in steps. It's understandable to be inpatient- want to implement calling your parent, a workspace, and other changes. You have done one of them- calling parents. Maybe it's more manageable to be persistant with that one.

It's been said- don't implement a boundary that you can not stand up for, because if she's able to get you to back down, then that behavior is reinforced. So maybe stick with the calling home one for a while, let both of you settle down to that one. Maybe some self care things like leaving the house with the boys when she's raging- good for you, good for them. But leave other major ones until you can emotionally manage yourself with them.

[truthdevotee]

Thank you Notwendy.

I think that's it... I've been too much on edge, not enough full-bodied presence. It comes out as reactivity which can anger her further.

Last few minutes I've been focusing on proper presence, letting go of resisting and tensing up to my own anxiety (letting it be felt and flow in the body), and reflecting the feelings of my pwBDP... "you feel xyz... aha..."

Now she's on the phone to a family member! Completely different rules for herself. She's created chaos the last 3 days since I let her know I called my parents.

Thanks for this reminder about not overloading with too many new boundaries and behaviours. It could be that right now it's best to be on sick leave as she's refusing to care for the boys on her own.

[Notwendy]

Something to think about-

For you to work, you need child care for the boys.

Relying on your wife to provide this care, makes your ability to work dependent on her being willing/able to do this.

If she refuses to watch the boys, it means you have to do it. This means you stay home.

Sometimes the "reason" for her wishes is actually an emotional need. Not that you can read minds, nobody can. However, consider that, if you are home watching the boys, she knows where you are and is probably less anxious.

But you don't get any work done...

I know she won't let anyone else do it. Do you see how this is also something that has you being home? If she let someone else do it, you would be able to leave to go to work.

It's tempting to JADE due to accusations or reasons presented, but when these are not logical to you. ( she knows you need to work to support the family so it's illogical to make this difficult for you) consider that, the actual reason is more emotional than what is being given as the "reason". Also you don't have to validate the invalid by going along with it. Maybe something such as " I am going to work for the next 3 hours, I will be back then to take the boys to the park" is more manageable than a vague "I am going to work" which might have her thinking "when is he coming back". Then, she can be left to manage her feelings knowing that there's a limited time to your being gone.

[truthdevotee]

I know she won't let anyone else do it. Do you see how this is also something that has you being home? If she let someone else do it, you would be able to leave to go to work.

It's tempting to JADE due to accusations or reasons presented, but when these are not logical to you. ( she knows you need to work to support the family so it's illogical to make this difficult for you) consider that, the actual reason is more emotional than what is being given as the "reason". Also you don't have to validate the invalid by going along with it. Maybe something such as " I am going to work for the next 3 hours, I will be back then to take the boys to the park" is more manageable than a vague "I am going to work" which might have her thinking "when is he coming back". Then, she can be left to manage her feelings knowing that there's a limited time to your being gone.

Thanks again for the deep insight. This makes complete sense about the emotional need and the great idea to make it a kind of limited "time block" so she can manage the feelings for that time period. Much for me to reflect on here...

The last 3 days have been constantly extremely intense whenever she is around. I'm just writing this here as a way to self-reflect. It's as if she allows everything to blow up given the threat of the "norm" changing and the resulting discomfort. She's stopped all cleaning, and I'm only managing the clean the kitchen daily, so the house is a big mess.

She kept asking questions today regarding what I discussed with my parents. I mentioned a conversation about near-death experiences that I had with my mother. Near-death experience studies are just a general interest of mine, and since my mum has recently been diagnosed with heart failure, she mentioned this may be her way to leave the planet. This triggered a sharing on near-death experience studies that I find interesting.

My pwBDP feels totally betrayed and abandoned by the knowledge that I connected "intimately with your mother but never with me." To me this didn't feel like anything abnormal. She cried with a lot of blame and anger at the same time and I showed comfort and let her know how much I love her. I also did some explaining which probably didn't help at all. In the end, she left the house with tears in her eyes.

Although it's a tricky situation going through these times with pwBPD, I sense that I have work to do. My mindful awareness isn't powerful enough to spot the patterns I'm engaging in. I think I am finding it so exhausting because of the self-doubt that comes up when I share my truths and she thinks I'm narcisistic for doing so. Additionally, I'm sure but unaware precisely how I engage in JADE and circular arguments. I guess this is about further reading, understanding and mindful practice to become more effective at knowing what's a dead-end and what's a possibility to connect with her.

But... I let out a big *sigh* with the awareness that this not easy, for her or for me... and the boys. Overall though, it has been a good day... just all of this stuff with pwBDP erodes the joy and lightness that could be.

[Notwendy]

Maybe I can lend some insight into this idea.

When we are being co-dependent, we are not being our authentic selves. If you are walking on eggshells around your wife, you are probably a bit on high alert and guarded.

Not so much around a trusted family member, or friend, in a non romantic situation. I think we have more at stake emotionally in a romantic relationship and with issues would feel more guarded.

It seems a bit weird to be jealous of a non romantic relationship but if you are more at ease sharing with your family, your wife can probably sense this. It's not your fault, it's the nature of the relationship.

Ironically, this can get better when you become less co-dependent and walk on eggshells less, and manage your own fears, because you will then be less guarded with her than you are now. I imagine you feel you can say what you want with your parents more or less as they aren't going to go off the rails. Your wife might but the solution is to not be as fearful of her moods. Don't put the blame on her "I can't talk to you because of how you react" isn't going to bring improvement. Saying to yourself " I can't talk to her due to my fears- I need to work on this" and consider this has a much better chance.

[truthdevotee]

It seems a bit weird to be jealous of a non romantic relationship but if you are more at ease sharing with your family, your wife can probably sense this. It's not your fault, it's the nature of the relationship.

She's extremely jealous. I let her know honestly just now that I don't see anything abnormal sharing about near death experiences with my mother, yet my pwBPD fully believes this is incest. Is that true? She said I'm blind and can't even see its incest

She says some horrible things such as that I'm cheating, and much worse (like of sexualizing the whole thing).

I said that i respect her thought and opinion, but I do not share it. I know that she would interpret this is invalidating her, but I sense that it's important to continue to validate how I love her but how I see things differently. As in, affirm our love but stand up for my individuality, which is making her feel tremendously uncomfortable.

Am I on the right track?

She feels tremendous pain and disgust when I honestly share that i don't see the near death experience topic with my mother as an issue.

In pwBDPs mind, respect = acting in accordance with her feelings. I said that respect isn't the same as agreement, that we can respect one another but still disagree and even do things differently. She hates this because feelings = facts. Am I correct here, though?

Ironically, this can get better when you become less co-dependent and walk on eggshells less, and manage your own fears, because you will then be less guarded with her than you are now. I imagine you feel you can say what you want with your parents more or less as they aren't going to go off the rails. Your wife might but the solution is to not be as fearful of her moods. Don't put the blame on her "I can't talk to you because of how you react" isn't going to bring improvement. Saying to yourself " I can't talk to her due to my fears- I need to work on this" and consider this has a much better chance.

Thanks a lot. I understand. Yeah it's so true that I basically gave up sharing my internal world after so many years of being attacked for self expression. And so the emotional intimacy has got lost. But I see what you mean, the only way out is to confront my fears and share anyway. There's the added factor of wanting the boys to have a peaceful house, and so I often avoid triggering pwBDP by sharing too much. So it makes sense she feels I'm incapable of emotional intimacy. It's not that I'm incapable it's that I didn't feel safe and I get worried about the boys. But in general I'll focus on the guidance here to face these fears and willingly face her reactions when I express myself

That's very true I'm more at ease sharing myself with basically everyone but her... Sad because she's my wife... But exactly as you said, she picks up on this and is so hurt because the emotional depth occurs between myself and others in my life more easily

I'll face my fears.

Thank you

[Notwendy]

Oh now come on...

Cheating? On the phone with your mother and she's a distance from you?

Now, if your wife is feeling jealous that you are more comfortable speaking to your mother and you are walking on eggshells with your wife- it might feel like cheating to her. A pwBPD can sense feelings=facts but one of you needs to know better than that.

You can validate her feeling and not argue the facts. "Honey, I understand it may feel that way to you" and then let it go. Arguing that you aren't having an incestual affair will feel invalidating and also arguing in a way adds energy to the idea. If you have nothing to defend, then don't defend it.

Don't defend sharing your interests with your mother to her. It doesn't help her feelings and it isn't something you need to explain to her otherwise.

I am sorry that you holding on to reality is such an ordeal for your wife, but if she's thinking things that aren't real, there's not much you can do about it.  Sometimes these changes can lead to an adjustment on the part of the other person. Sometimes it can challenge the relationship altogether. It's not easy.

[truthdevotee]

Maybe something such as " I am going to work for the next 3 hours, I will be back then to take the boys to the park" is more manageable than a vague "I am going to work" which might have her thinking "when is he coming back". Then, she can be left to manage her feelings knowing that there's a limited time to your being gone.

I tried it today, I booked office access for today, tomorrow and Thursday (we are permitted 3 days every 10 days at the office). I let her know this morning at 0630 that I'll be gone until 1115 to 1130 and will bring lunch in boxes for her and the boys. It resulted in her breaking down and blaming me for never connecting with her. I reminded her that she left the conversation last night after 10 minutes (after I'd empathized with her viewpoint and shared my own thought/opinion on the call with my parents in which I shared on near-death experiences which she deems as incestual).

So... I ended up staying here at home. I don't know if I was unhealthily manipulated by her grief/blame or if it was loving for me to stay.

But I do know that I feel some anger about how this impacts my job. I have two important meetings this morning that I need to support my colleague with. I told my partner I'll take a half day sick day, which doesn't impact my income at all...

But... no go. I'm here at home and just prepared breakfast for the boys. I'm so close to telling my boss the real reason for not working... is this appropriate? Of course my pwBDP desires to hide the real reason and telling my boss would be another massive explosion triggered.

I will reach out to my eldest son's old playgroup director in case she has any practical tips for a good nanny with a nice home where I can take the boys in future instances of this.

[truthdevotee]

A couple of days ago my pwBDP saw my Kindle and a sample ebook I had there:

https://www.amazon.com/Adult-Children-Emotionally-Immature-Parents-ebook/dp/B00TZE87S4/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2OABNTQ1HIVB1&dchild=1&keywords=adult+children+of+emotionally+immature+parents%2C+by+lindsay+gibson&qid=1614671526&sprefix=adult+children+%2Caps%2C798&sr=8-1

Since then I've removed her access from my Kindle account and provided her with her own, and bought her the book. I was avoidant of this because she kept quoting from the book as a way to blame and critisize.

That continues today, but I also trust there's a deeper process going on for her reflecting on her childhood... she's in so much grief that she can't get out of bed.

It's been stressful with regard to my job which I take very seriously. But my boss is understanding and I framed it that she is physically sick and therefore I have full responsibility for the boys.

I'm feeling angry as she read something about rage/anger being a normal response to childhood abandonment. That is true, but she uses this as a rationalization that my limits on rage/name calling are unfair. I feel so angry at this and how can she even think this? I don't normally get righteously indignant (resentment is a big no no for us alcholics), but this is just so amazing how she can believe that because it is a normalized response, she has the right to treat me like crap? Argh.

I will go back to the hotel I went to last week as the receptionist told me that the director will be there and maybe I can persuade him for an exception. I can then see if I can find a nanny to come to the room to get to know the boys, so I might be able to use the nanny in future similar circumstances where i have important meetings to get to. But i need to find a nanny who can allow the kids into her home.

I have a couple of things going on  - I feel empathy for her pain and grief and I'm happy that a deeper layer is coming to awareness (although I'm wary the awareness can be forgotten), I have stress about my work, and I have anger about the unhealthy actions and words that come out of pwBDP as a result of that inner pain.

It's like a paradox that there is this deep pain that I feel compassion for but simultaneously I feel angry and tired and exhausted from her blindness regarding her damaging behaviors. Argh.( Is it normal to experience this paradox? Sometimes my thoughts tell me I'm selfish for feeling angry about a person grieving loss and never had support in their childhood.

[truthdevotee]

I'm in a hotel with the boys for the day. They love it.

Wife writes messages that are just so untrue, and it is sad for me because there appears no way to escape from her negative perceptions. I'm not replying with JADE. I need to recover today.

[02/03, 09:59] Honey: You put me ashamed in front of your boss
[02/03, 09:59] Honey: I feel sad but in the deep pain it is now overshadowed
[02/03, 10:00] Honey: Once I would be capable to heal the wound I would feel sad from it
[02/03, 10:01] Honey: You even told me you go to say what's happening that is reflecting you don't mind to shame me
[02/03, 10:12] Honey: I would ask you not to shame me more if she would wants to know what's happening

[khibomsis]

Truthdevotee, well done! I am glad the boys are loving it.  
Your wife really sounds in a bad state, it seems as if you connecting with your FOO has triggered some deep stuff in her. Nevertheless, it is her stuff, not your stuff, you do well to take a break from it. There is no way you could ever make up to her for the mother love she did not receive, only therapy and a strong will to heal on her part can do that.

Like Notwendy said, your job keeps your family afloat, it has to be your priority. And that involves a certain minimal level  of sanity on your side. You are doing well so far.  Indeed don't get caught up in her emotional rollercoaster, lying to your boss to please her is just going to cause more trouble in the long run - not least because you will then have to devote mental energy to remembering which lies you told.

Don't let crazy run your life, especially not your work life..

Yes, of course it is perfectly normal to feel conflicted. They are Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, so it is natural for us to feel two opposite emotions at the same time. I do it frequently twice before breakfast  
More seriously, though, over years of my uNBPD mother's behaviour I ended up feeling quite numb. It is to do with CPTSD and the flight/fight/fawn/freeze response. Too much triggering and we freeze. Take good care of yourself and your boys, and enjoy the peace.

[Notwendy]

Please don't reveal any details about who you are or location. This board is anonymous. But you mentioned you are not in your native country and so I wonder if there's any cultural differences going on here? Some cultures are quite reserved. In the US people talk about all kinds of things and it isn't personal, but in another culture some topics might be. I am not excusing the behavior- BPD is BPD and and it can affect people in all walks of life and cultures but it seems that feeling shame over you speaking to your mother about such a topic doesn't really make sense.

A big fear is disclosure of the situation. In our family, the largest taboo would be to reveal my mother's behavior or any issues to anyone. She is quite good at presenting a good impression of herself outside her immediate family. If we were to tell anyone, we'd be punished and we did try a few times but people don't believe us because they themselves didn't see it. We were considered "terrible children" for speaking about our mother that way.

My guess is that this is the fear and shame that your wife is reacting to, not the topic you discussed with your parents. And if she thinks they have "seen through it" and know there's something going on and might influence you- she would react to any conversation. I think it helps to keep in mind that sometimes what she says "is the reason" is actually feelings. When the "reason" she says seems irrational, it just might not be the reason but a feeling that is difficult for her. So she may act around it.

For instance, if she fears you will speak to someone about her at work, or call your parents from work, then she could refuse to watch the boys or crawl in bed like she is doing now, because if you are home where she can hear you on the phone, she knows you won't call or say anything. So her action and reason " can't watch the boys" isn't the real reason.

[truthdevotee]

Truthdevotee, well done! I am glad the boys are loving it.  
Your wife really sounds in a bad state, it seems as if you connecting with your FOO has triggered some deep stuff in her. Nevertheless, it is her stuff, not your stuff, you do well to take a break from it. There is no way you could ever make up to her for the mother love she did not receive, only therapy and a strong will to heal on her part can do that.

Thanks for your loving message.

Yeah, it REALLY helps having this hotel room for the day. Unfortunately, the hotel are making an exception. I'll try to persuade them to let me hear again with the kids, but since they can only let me in for "work purposes" children are not actually permitted. I'm grateful they made this exception today. It's just nice to have a warm place for the boys to come to a "base camp" and the hotel is right in the forest! It's like everyone has been telling me, create an adventure and the boys will love it. It's expensive but it's worth it to see their little faces glow with happiness.

Like Notwendy said, your job keeps your family afloat, it has to be your priority. And that involves a certain minimal level  of sanity on your side. You are doing well so far.  Indeed don't get caught up in her emotional rollercoaster, lying to your boss to please her is just going to cause more trouble in the long run - not least because you will then have to devote mental energy to remembering which lies you told.

Thanks for encouraging me to be transparent with my boss. If this continues longer, I will have to tell her the whole truth. I am always very open and honest about everything with the exception of anything to do with my wife, because my wife is extremely sensitive of "revealing" anything.

Don't let crazy run your life, especially not your work life..

OK...

Yes, of course it is perfectly normal to feel conflicted. They are Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, so it is natural for us to feel two opposite emotions at the same time. I do it frequently twice before breakfast  
More seriously, though, over years of my uNBPD mother's behaviour I ended up feeling quite numb. It is to do with CPTSD and the flight/fight/fawn/freeze response. Too much triggering and we freeze. Take good care of yourself and your boys, and enjoy the peace.

Thank you... I have a bit of a headache and no medicine and even text messages with pwBDP are stressful. Perhaps I'm replying too much.

However, she is reading a book and it's opening her mind to her childhood. The blame just doesn't stop though - she seems to struggle with distinguishing between cause and trigger. I'm still the cause to her... but she's opening her mind to the patterns of her FOO, which is a big step. She even self diagnosed as having OCDP today via text message. I used to think she has OCDP too, until I learned about the high-functioning borderline pattern. I need to learn more about distinguishing the two of these though. A key issue for my pwBPD is real or perceived abandonment (her mother died when she was 8 years old), and I'm not sure if that covers OCDP. I guess not, so it's more likely she has BPD.

[truthdevotee]

Please don't reveal any details about who you are or location. This board is anonymous. But you mentioned you are not in your native country and so I wonder if there's any cultural differences going on here? Some cultures are quite reserved. In the US people talk about all kinds of things and it isn't personal, but in another culture some topics might be. I am not excusing the behavior- BPD is BPD and and it can affect people in all walks of life and cultures but it seems that feeling shame over you speaking to your mother about such a topic doesn't really make sense.

This is really perceptive, Notwendy. Yes, completely different cultures. Let's say I'm over on the very warm side and pwBPD is on the highly reserved side. Our cultural backgrounds as well as history, reflect those patterns, bigtime.

A big fear is disclosure of the situation. In our family, the largest taboo would be to reveal my mother's behavior or any issues to anyone. She is quite good at presenting a good impression of herself outside her immediate family. If we were to tell anyone, we'd be punished and we did try a few times but people don't believe us because they themselves didn't see it. We were considered "terrible children" for speaking about our mother that way.

Yeah... I have this experience with my pwBPD also.

My guess is that this is the fear and shame that your wife is reacting to, not the topic you discussed with your parents. And if she thinks they have "seen through it" and know there's something going on and might influence you- she would react to any conversation. I think it helps to keep in mind that sometimes what she says "is the reason" is actually feelings. When the "reason" she says seems irrational, it just might not be the reason but a feeling that is difficult for her. So she may act around it.

Thanks Notwendy for reminding me of this that the real reason is an emotion or an emotional need. Really easy for me to lose sight of sometimes, as I'm quite exhausted.

For instance, if she fears you will speak to someone about her at work, or call your parents from work, then she could refuse to watch the boys or crawl in bed like she is doing now, because if you are home where she can hear you on the phone, she knows you won't call or say anything. So her action and reason " can't watch the boys" isn't the real reason.

Oh wow... I'm feeling rather exhausted. I'll stay in hotel with the lads til 1900 and then take them home to  sleep. need to make sure i'm well,  but i can always drive back to hotel in an emergency as i have it for 1 night
[/quote]

[truthdevotee]

it's the neverending blame that I'm sensitive to. it has this kind of continuous grinding feeling that is hard for me to overcome at times.

e.g.

"you don't take anything seriously what happened the last 3 days. you hurt me tremendously so i do things that i normally would not. you stabbed a knife into my heart at least 15 times."

[truthdevotee]

[02/03, 14:53] Honey: I had difficulty to breathe so I can't do anything perfect in such situation
[02/03, 14:56] Honey: You call it trigger but it is much more than that for me
[02/03, 15:10] Honey: You blame me for who I am. You blame my existence. It goes very deep
[02/03, 15:11] Honey: There is no real love involved

[truthdevotee]

Not looking forward to going home

[Cat Familiar]

I certainly can understand why you don’t want to go home. 

You’ve been very suggestible to your wife’s manipulations in the past, but lately you’ve been strengthening your sense of self and you can now see how misguided her sense of reality is.

Because her ploys to keep you controlled no longer work the way they previously did, she is feeling unbalanced and is trying to sway you through FOG (fear, obligation, and guilt).

To the outside world, you have done nothing that you need to feel guilty about. Having a close relationship with your parents is something that everyone should have, providing that their parents are emotionally healthy individuals.

[truthdevotee]

I certainly can understand why you don’t want to go home. 

You’ve been very suggestible to your wife’s manipulations in the past, but lately you’ve been strengthening your sense of self and you can now see how misguided her sense of reality is.

Because her ploys to keep you controlled no longer work the way they previously did, she is feeling unbalanced and is trying to sway you through FOG (fear, obligation, and guilt).

To the outside world, you have done nothing that you need to feel guilty about. Having a close relationship with your parents is something that everyone should have, providing that their parents are emotionally healthy individuals.

Thanks Cat Familiar. Comforting to read. I see the attempts to pull me into the FOG. She says I should have taken it slowly with regard to calling my family. I'm still learning to lovingly detach in order not to get sucked into the FOG. I feel disappointed at times that there appears to be no way to connect with her.

Back home now. My wife is in bed, exhausted.

I saw what Notwendy has been saying a few times, with clarity. As wife was talking I shifted from focusing on the illogical words to the awareness that ultimately she's expressing an emotion and emotional needs. This helps me to stay out of the FOG, too.

[truthdevotee]

The extinction burst is playing out. It appears she is getting worse and trying so so hard to make me backtrack and apologise.

[Cat Familiar]

As difficult as it is to endure the awful behavior, if you give in to it, that will train her that she can throw a tantrum to get whatever she wants.

Stay strong.

[khibomsis]

truthdevotee, hang on in there. The same that you would with your boys.In many ways she is no more mature than your four-year old, and you need to be the adult here. You teach other people how to treat you by your actions. 

[truthdevotee]

Thank you both for the support.

I'm reading Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist : How to End the Drama and Get On with Life. This is very helpful for me particularly because it is going into a lot of detail of the role I've played as Caretaker.

I see now that it is Caretaking behavior that primarily keeps the balance and the Karpman Drama Triangle alive. So, in terms of this model, I'm withdrawing my role as Caretaker and my pwBPD is drastically trying to get us back into the familiar roles.

[truthdevotee]

I just left the house. The more I withdraw with love from the caretaker role, the worse she appears to get. The projections are so intense.

She desperately wants me to admit that did something bad and wrong by contacting my parents without discussing it with her beforehand. She has many rationalisations for why she is correct. Less and less I fall into JADE. More and more I have the confidence to trust my instincts that her projections are about her not me. She tries via victim and perpetrator to pull me into the caretaker role. There are still thoughts of self doubt that arise in me that "what if she is right and I should be self reflecting and taking responsibility for the whole problem." She knows I've done this 100% in the past. I allowed myself to be submissive in the name of love and growth. This time since she can see me "not budging" it's escalating her behaviour

[truthdevotee]

This is a text she just sent which sounds so logical and definitely has truth to it :

If you ever would like to work it between us you come and talk to me about changes of contract and come to the mutual agreement. Otherwise there is no respect but betrayal. Love goes hand in hand with respect. Betrayal go hand in hand with pride (no genuine love).


You can see her perception of betrayal. What the message doesn't recognise is that due to my fearful response to her out of control behaviour over the years, I've made agreements and lost contact with my values and my FOO by ultimately (though not without a fight) being submissive. And my perception is that she has very little awareness of her emotional dysregulation severity.

Theoretically, let's say I were to have had this "discussion" with her. My experience is that there is no discussion because her goal is control. Not even sincere and strong efforts to validate her can comfort her. Ultimately the respect she speaks of, in my experience, is control. To discuss with her would mean going about contacting FOO on her terms, according to her highly fluctuating emotions and behaviour, and her pace. Since my parents aren't getting younger, I felt I could not wait anymore to make the move according to my inner values. If I were to get into a so called discussion with my wife, it would be as it always has, with her in the driving seat with all that it entails - chaos at home, which happened anyway.

Therefore, prior to calling them, about a week before, I told her in clear terms that the contract isnt active for me anymore. I said I'll call them and of course I'll share with her. Over the last few months, I tried to encourage her to do video calls with FOO and the boys, but there was always an excuse. And now she blames me for not helping her to get along with them.

It's all crazy making if I believe any of it. Yet, her message sounds mature and it does contain truth, that mutual alignment in marriage is vital. Yet, it fails to recognise that she has BPD, which she has no awareness of. This morning she told me she is pure. All of the "badness" is projected onto me, and she has no awareness of it.

Despite my instinct, I get self doubtful and scared a bit... Because I want to be a genuinely loving and honest man and partner, and her message appears to hit me right on one of my most important values, honesty and transparency. Yet my experience all these years with her is that openness and transparency are not received, they are fought against.

My job is to face my fears of being authentic and not be manipulated by my fear of being dishonest and disrespectful.

[khibomsis]

Hey truthdevotee, it is a tough job. I really respect you for doing your best.

Is there any chance of her getting into therapy? Because I must say it sounds like a particularly bad case, even for an extinction burst. I have never seen a dysregulation that goes on for weeks like this.

On another planet it might be possible to tell a man not to speak to his mother. Not on this one. Where I live, you marry somebody knowing what his family is and it is a big no no to try to come between somebody and their family. Because forcing somebody to choose never works out. That is just not how love works.


 

Yes, stick to your guns. Don't let FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) get in your way. You tried to be open and honest, that is hard when someone is screaming insults at you. I too try to be authentic but I had to accept that my expwBPD sometimes really just did not care about my feelings. I mean, being outside the projections is hard but being on the inside must be terrible. They simply don't have emotional space to deal with anything else. So do you. You have set your boundaries and the firmer you are now the less she will push in the future.

 

[truthdevotee]

Hey truthdevotee, it is a tough job. I really respect you for doing your best.

Thank you, very very much for your support.

Is there any chance of her getting into therapy? Because I must say it sounds like a particularly bad case, even for an extinction burst. I have never seen a dysregulation that goes on for weeks like this.

I've managed to get her into therapy once. However then and even now she maintains that I'm the problem and that she doesn't need the therapy

On another planet it might be possible to tell a man not to speak to his mother. Not on this one. Where I live, you marry somebody knowing what his family is and it is a big no no to try to come between somebody and their family. Because forcing somebody to choose never works out. That is just not how love works.

Thanks,this really helps me to stay focused and not doubt myself.

 

Yes, stick to your guns. Don't let FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) get in your way. You tried to be open and honest, that is hard when someone is screaming insults at you. I too try to be authentic but I had to accept that my expwBPD sometimes really just did not care about my feelings. I mean, being outside the projections is hard but being on the inside must be terrible. They simply don't have emotional space to deal with anything else. So do you. You have set your boundaries and the firmer you are now the less she will push in the future.

 

Thank you.
I'll stick at it.

I just did chanting, it helped me to calm my racing mind and feelings of anxiety. Really powerful!

[Cat Familiar]

The certainty that she demonstrates regarding her opinions is in conflict with her incompetence in participating in the external world.

You’ve had to be the caretaker, the wage earner, the househusband, etc., while she does what exactly, other than some care for the children?

So why would you ever value the opinion of a dysregulated person over your own?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[GaGrl]

She has fixated on this one issue, that of communicating and having a relationship with your family. She sees this as a betrayal of the "contract" between you.

What exactly was this contract? What were her obligations in this contract?

Because within the primary marriage contract there are responsibilities and obligations for each partner, and she -- in her mental illness -- is not capable of fulfilling her obligations to you. Taken a step further, she is actively undermining the marriage contract with such actions as isolating you from your FOO.

She seeks a marriage of control -- not of partnership. Her desperate attempts to control you will never result in alleviating her emotional distress.

You are doing good and difficult work on yourself right now. That is where you can focus for now.

[truthdevotee]

The certainty that she demonstrates regarding her opinions is in conflict with her incompetence in participating in the external world.

You’ve had to be the caretaker, the wage earner, the househusband, etc., while she does what exactly, other than some care for the children?

So why would you ever value the opinion of a dysregulated person over your own?

Thank you Cat Familiar. I am very grateful for your powerful message.

Yes, it's time to stop that part of my psyche that is so self-doubting it would even consider that I deserve this rage. I'm realizing that I deserve, and want, a woman who truly loves me for who I am, and who I truly love, for who she is.

Fortunately, we were handed down all clothing and many, many toys, and we continue to receive these hand-me-downs, from my pwBPD's older sister who's has a son 3 years older than my eldest. Without this support... it would have been impossible... most other items (90%) needed for the boys were bought by me e.g. prams, toys, etc.

I've reached out to someone on Airbnb to see if I can rent a place for one month. Although I'm calm, I'm cautious; the black and white thinking and projecting is so intense and so angry, that I need to be careful. I still trust that she would do her best with the boys when she has energy to do so. When she doesn't have energy, she always contacts me. I've got a bag prepared for rapid leaving of the house in case things continue to get intense. At this point in time, there's no effort on her part to calm down when she's feeling so much rage.

[truthdevotee]

She has fixated on this one issue, that of communicating and having a relationship with your family. She sees this as a betrayal of the "contract" between you.

What exactly was this contract? What were her obligations in this contract?

So just under one year ago I managed to have her come to therapy sessions based on my limit to leave unless we both committed to getting help. At some point I agreed that she would have my parents phone number and not me and that we'd align on all communication before sending it. There was no obligation on her side to run communication via me when communicating with her family. The reasoning was that they helped us financially more, she didn't "betray" me with her FOO (her belief is that I betrayed her and talked badly about her with my FOO, when I was actually highlighting her good sides and trying to have my family feel some calm after some pretty crazy situations), she helped me "get along" with her family more than I did with mine, I'm enmeshed and she's not, etc.

I was doing everything I could to keep our family intact for the boys, as well as in memory of the deep pain I had seeing my parents fight, and the tendency to take responsibility for way too much (OCD kind of pattern) and I'm sure this is related to deep shame I've had too, which has been healing with my focus on recovery over the years. I've since learned since coming to this forum and through experience that keeping things intact at the expense of myself is just... Not a good lesson for my boys...

Because within the primary marriage contract there are responsibilities and obligations for each partner, and she -- in her mental illness -- is not capable of fulfilling her obligations to you. Taken a step further, she is actively undermining the marriage contract with such actions as isolating you from your FOO.

She seeks a marriage of control -- not of partnership. Her desperate attempts to control you will never result in alleviating her emotional distress.

I fully agree, a marriage of control.

You are doing good and difficult work on yourself right now. That is where you can focus for now.

Thanks =) thank you...

[truthdevotee]

Just booked an Airbnb close by, for 3 nights, starting from tomorrow. Agreed that if it works for me, I can extend to one month.

Amazing thing about Airbnb is how fast you can get a place with everything you need.

It is interesting that my mind automatically tries to minimise my wife's behaviour. I have to remind myself how severe it is. The reason for this I don't know. It's like after I have recovered from one of my wife's rages, I am hopeful that things could be different or she might have a good mood. It's amazing that the mind does this because experience 100% shows that the rage will return. Why does my mind so this? Minimizing... I wonder if it's a ploy from the unconscious to try to keep me in the familiar caretaker role.

The rages are very intense and full of hatred and the desire to hurt. So I have no idea why just 3 hours later I want to hope things might magically change... That's a sort of insanity... Is that common?

[GaGrl]

Was the couple's counselor involved in the "agreement/contracy"? Because if so, it sounds unethical to participate in such a one-sided, uneven arrangement.

As to the severity of your wife's condition -- she has a mental illness, and she is seriously dysfunctional. I doubt she is capable of functioning more than 37 hours without needing you (or someone else) to step in and alleviate her mental and emotional pain.

When you are doubting now had it is -- repeat to yourself that she is mentally ill.

[Notwendy]

The rages are very intense and full of hatred and the desire to hurt. So I have no idea why just 3 hours later I want to hope things might magically change... That's a sort of insanity... Is that common?

I think it is and I don't really know why this is. I do think that the rages serve as a relief/reset function. I have described it like a kid who ate too much candy. They then have a stomach ache and throw up. After that, they feel fine, like it never happened.

I have noticed that after a rage, the person is most lucid, and clear- it's then that we see the "person" as we wish we saw them all the time but it gives us hope. Like the kid with the stomach ache- they feel fine, the bad feelings are out and to them they are gone. They expect us to feel the same way - act as if it never happened.

It's the oddest thing to observe actually. But it seems to me to be a cycle.

[truthdevotee]

Was the couple's counselor involved in the "agreement/contracy"? Because if so, it sounds unethical to participate in such a one-sided, uneven arrangement.

As to the severity of your wife's condition -- she has a mental illness, and she is seriously dysfunctional. I doubt she is capable of functioning more than 37 hours without needing you (or someone else) to step in and alleviate her mental and emotional pain.

When you are doubting now had it is -- repeat to yourself that she is mentally ill.

GaGrl, thanks so much for this.

I see the tendency to minimise within myself because I so wanted us all to stay together.

Today I've packed bags and am going to the Airbnb, initially booked for 3 nights. Currently she doesn't know. I needed to keep it quiet because it can create another rage.

She's also at the point where she's throwing me out of the house. I'm not sure how serious she is, but she won't expect it to happen today.

I have the boys with me.

My wife tells our 3 year old that his daddy is dishonest. It is sad for me to hear.

I reminded myself that she has a mental illness this morning. It's a complete mindshift for me, as the tendency to believe I must be the problem is so deep. I think this must be from childhood, as a way to believe I have control over a terrible situation. If its me, I can fix it.

I'll tell her today by message that I have found a place already. I wonder if I should tell her that I think she has BPD? If so, I'm not sure how to do it. I've dropped it in conversation very gently, twice, but she didn't give any attention and said she's normal.

[Cat Familiar]

Telling her that she has BPD will not be beneficial. She will deny it and believe the problem is you.

I realize that you want to motivate her to look at her own behavior. It’s unlikely that she will do that, but more likely it will happen if you follow through with you plans and give her time alone, than if you tell her you suspect she has BPD.

You can see how her mental illness is beginning to impact the children. Remember to trust your own instincts.

[truthdevotee]

Thanks Cat Familiar.
Your message gave me strength tonight, and focus.
This morning she was dancing around the house whilst showing me the middle finger. It was like a hyper active anger that reflected the two year old.
Tonight I put the kids to bed and left the house to go to my flat.

She messaged me
[07/03, 20:24] Honey: Can you come and take care of them?
[07/03, 20:24] Honey: I can't live this way.
[07/03, 20:25] Honey: I give them up for you
[07/03, 20:25] Honey: It's breaking my heart to be in such situation

[truthdevotee]

I hadn't informed her about having found a flat until the evening. It came as a shock for her. Earlier in the day she was saying she wants me out by April 1st. I'm not sure how serious she was/is, but now that she's seeing it happen... she is struggling. For the first time after several days of rage/anger, she showed grief tonight seeing that I actually left the house to go to my new flat. That this is actually happening... she says it breaks her heart "to see you connecting with them and not connecting with me." The thing is, when she's so angry and enraged i.e. like 5 or 6 out of 10, there can be no connection. Similarly if there is solely blame/criticism and the desire to see me step into the caretaker role again, there can be no connection. So, she desires this emotional connection tremendously but does so much to make it an impossibility.

 

[GaGrl]

What she calls "emotional connection" is actually having someone (you) alleviate her emotional pain and distress.

This is not intimacy. It probably has been a very long time since you experienced emotional intimacy with your wife that was not wrapped up in a BPD episode.

Have you told her you cannot have an emotional connection with her when you are being demeaned and raged at? What do you say? How does she respond?

[truthdevotee]

What she calls "emotional connection" is actually having someone (you) alleviate her emotional pain and distress.

This is not intimacy. It probably has been a very long time since you experienced emotional intimacy with your wife that was not wrapped up in a BPD episode.

Have you told her you cannot have an emotional connection with her when you are being demeaned and raged at? What do you say? How does she respond?

Hi GaGrl. Yeah, over the last few days I've repeated it gently and firmly many times. At a certain point she can't calm down. And, even when her anger is at a manageable level and "talking" is possible, it's more like being talked "at" than "with." In these cases I do my best to validate her feelings and also share my perspectives. Her response is everything and anything that doesn't absorb what I'm saying - that emotional intimacy isn't possible if there are anger, blame and criticism. It's interesting that no amount of validation of her perspective and listening to her - sometimes for long time periods - seems to help her.

This morning I listened and validated for about 30 minutes, whilst giving her a hug. She couldn't receive the hug. Eventually, I started getting tired... I asked for some space... she didn't respect it... she continued to talk at me and at the expense of caring for the children for another 30 minutes. It was getting to me but reminding myself that she is mentally ill was helping me remain balanced and calm. On an inner level I was feeling overwhelmed. In the end, I left the house, and I'm at my flat now. I promised I'll be back by midday and will bring lunch for the boys. I'm sad to have left the boys there with her as I didn't give them a proper goodbye and the last they heard was mum and dad "talking" (mum talking at dad with high intensity). I trust they will be OK. They love her and she loves them. I hope in my overwhelm I didn't abandon them too suddenly.

I wanted to ask a question here about the content of this mornings "talk." She's reading the book: https://www.amazon.com/Adult-Children-Emotionally-Immature-Parents/dp/1626251703

She's quoting from it with high intensity and trying to get me to see "myself." She's telling me I need to read it from beginning to end. She was saying that when I'm reading it I will go into pain but that I should just hold the pain within me and have an open mind. She said that if I don't read it then it's just because I'm not ready for it. The quotes she is quoting are all - from her perspective - all "me." There are some pieces which contain elements of truth of course.

Internally, I'm feeling somewhat off balance from this, and I think because she is striking me in a place where my self-doubt it triggered. I'm open to reading the book but not at the command of my wife and as just another way to support her projections. Has anybody read the book?

About my self-doubt - my pattern has been to "internalize" everything she has said about me over the years. Now, I don't mean to sound prideful, but for many years I've read hundreds of books and have dedicated myself to daily 12 step meetings as much as possible, as well as therapy. Through learning she has BPD, I'm stepping out of that tendency to internalize, which I mentioned in a previous post I think stems from wanting the illusion of control in my childhood i.e. "if my parents are fighting, it must be about me, and I can fix it."

The self-doubt is triggered with the thought "what if she's right." What if this is really all about me and I just am not ready for that book. On a logical level, I see that doubt is irrational and things are much more grey and nuanced; the book would provide me with lots of insights, I'm sure, and I'm constantly reading books with the goal of self-understanding and living a happier life.

My instinct tells me that she's aware probably unconsciously that she's striking my weak point of hyper-responsibility and self-doubt, by telling me I'm prideful and if I don't read this book then it's just "because you're not ready for it." So I can see she's trying to get me to doubt myself and the honest work I've been doing over the years, including reading several books with similar topics. I'm not saying "I'm perfect and I've arrived at perfection" at all - I'm sure this book she is obtaining so much help from at the moment (which I bought for her), would be helpful for me too. It's just my instinct is telling me that she's using the book as a way to get me to backtrack on the whole "breaking the contract thing," apologize, and only make an agreement she's comfortable with.

It's all so crazy making. Every part of it. And I'm feeling it now and it took me off balance this morning. The endless contradictions, the constant emotional pressure and stress about my FOO. It's so crazy making and intense that I can't really describe it in detail right now. It's just so full of distortion, control and deception - she pretends that she's "fine" with them and that "as long as you see your mother enmeshment pattern than we can move forward." Yet, this has not been the case over the years... it's been endless... and it's only coming to an end now that I'm stepping out of it.

So regarding the whole contract "breaking thing." She said that I broke it and that's why she's so angry over the last few days. I told her in clear terms that I will be calling my parents and that the contract doesn't stand any more, before I actually called them. I have also empathized and validated as much as possible over the last few days.

She's using the whole contract thing, my instinct says, to pull me back into a marriage of control - where she believes we have "mutual agreement" but which my experience over the past 8 years is not at all mutual agreement - it is agreeing with HER! It is also being her caretaker by sitting for endless hours listening to her blame and criticism of the world around her and the feelings underneath but which aren't consciously recognized.

So I write all of this, just to ask, hopefully one last time, could this be ME? Is this "breaking the contract thing" really as she says it is and therefore has the right to feel angry?

I'm very grateful for the help I've received to get me out of this situation where contact with my FOO is in her control, done in the way she wants it, at all times, or there is hell to pay. It's just that this morning, I think her pain got past my boundary as she was triggering this pocket of self-doubt by telling me how I am simply blind, not ready, etc. On a logical level I see the almost constant projection - everything she says, as well as quoting from the book, is so obviously what she is doing! Yet on the emotional level my anxiety and self-doubt got triggered.

[truthdevotee]

Apologies for such a long post above.

Here are some messages she just sent :

[08/03, 09:18] Honey: I would love you read the book. It's very profound, it goes to the core of your psychological potential. T
[08/03, 09:19] Honey: The chapter is on the page 126, starts with Dabrowski
[08/03, 09:22] Honey: I care for you the most so before I ever would potentially share it with anybody else I would love you read the book. It's very profound, it goes to the core and provide growth to your psychological potential.
[08/03, 09:23] Honey: If the person is open to receive.
[08/03, 09:25] Honey: It tells you a lot about me so I am giving you potential threat.



I agreed so far that I'll read the specific parts she recommends for me but not the whole book. I sense she will be angry if i  understand the book differently and obtain different insights and I told her this much occur.

It's also just not pleasant to read a book in an atmosphere of judgment and stress, when it should be a healing experience.

However, please let me know your feedback, perhaps I should go ahead and read it? Perhaps i can create it into a connecting experience.

On the other hand, I've got 3 open BPD books at the moment, and not much time to read anything! I think i should prioritize the book Stop Caretaking, because I see how spot on and insightful it is, so many aha moments and practical actions I can implement from it.

[truthdevotee]

Last post. One of the indicators I have that this - for her - is a marriage of control rather than one of partnership (which she presents it to be), is the fact that she hasn't ever told me and still won't, how much money she has in her bank account. Despite me being so generous over the years, having no money saved, accepting the fact the boys would take her surname (not what we wanted, but due to legislation in the country I live in plus other complex factors, we couldn't mix our surnames and we are not formally married), her father and her having the flat in their names despite my contribution, the car being in her name and me paying for petrol and insurance... plus everything else (too long to list), she still has not ever told me - just for the sake of openness and transparency - what she has saved in her account.

All of this was my choice and responsibility - as the caretaker I gave way too much and had no limits of my own, and genuinely wanted to be a strong husband and father. Yet, the fact that what is in her account is kept hidden must be for control purposes.

[truthdevotee]

She writes :

Honey

my opinion is after reading the book that I triggered your painful feelings that you could not stand them anymore and went to get the comfort from your parents. It feels secure.

Growing means to go through the painful feelings.

I have the same honey but to go to family is not helpful but more damage to your growth.



So, it is true I went through a lot of painful feelings. However, in the last year they had mostly subsided. Yet something was still wrong. I could feel it and my life energy was flat and I was resentful for feeling controlled in so many areas of life.

Then 1 month ago I discover BPD and this forum, and it paints the full picture.

As usual, she is telling me I'm prideful and asking me for humility (to see things her way), perhaps as a way to manipulate and stay in control. She would like things to change very very slowly, or perhaps not at all until she's satisfied that I'm not "mother enmeshed."

This is the first time I've ever stood according to my instinct (with your help on the forum), but it is also confusing because she is so so so sure of herself!

[khibomsis]

Hey truthdevotee, I am sorry you are going through such a tough time! At least you have the flat to flee to, I hope it is giving you the breather you need to stay calm.

Look, there is never a situation where only one party is at fault. In BPD relationships, the classic combination is either BPD/narcissist or BPD/co-dependence. In both cases, the relationship changes when both parties are willing to change. In your case which sounds co-dependent to me, the way things change is by the co-dependent setting boundaries which forces the BPD to change patterns of behaviour.

Now, as much as it is no use for you to point out to your wife that she is BPD, there is also no point in her trying to tell you what is wrong with you and how you should change. True change comes from within, it comes when you are ready and how you are ready. The same for her.  No matter how right she may be (and in the end no one can make that assessment except yourself), she is not right in seeking to force you to "buy into" her conceptual world.  The more so since we all agree that her conceptual world is not altogether sane. Don't let crazy run your life.

What she should be doing is focusing on her issues and how she can change for a better marriage. At the moment it sounds as if she is doing full scale projection as a way to avoid focusing on her own problems (lack of anger management, low functioning, and indeed projection itself). An analogy would be that you decide broccoli is good for her and then force it down her throat. Whether or not it is good for her,  the control aspect of it would cause more trauma than it solves.

You were doing great handling your FOO issues in your own way, at your own pace. What she needs to do is to provide a positive loving environment for change to happen. Well, of course this is not going to happen with BPD, we nons very much go through the tough times on our own. In my view you are merely prolonging the conflict by having fuzzy boundaries. If you allow her concessions while she behaves the way she does you are feeding the behaviour. Stay firm. You will read the book when you have time. In the meantime you do not wish to discuss your FOO issues, you wish to discuss what constitutes civilized behaviour in the home. If you do a broken record that may sink in with time. 

Indeed, what is not happening while she is projecting all over the place are some very important discussions about finances and transparency. If you are not married, do you have a domestic partnership agreement? If not, drawing one up would be a good way to create space to maybe bring some structure into your lives.

Hope you are breathing/chanting!

 

[Notwendy]

I might digress here, but this is a mystery from my childhood that I had a difficult time comprehending. It is in regards to your "controlling marriage".

How does someone see themselves as so deserving? And how do they get someone to go along with it?

During the years of their marriage, my BPD mother didn't earn any money. I don't dispute that relationship as I also stayed home and raised children and have worked but don't earn as much as my H. However, I also contribute in other ways in terms of child care, house work, cleaning, organizing. I do "work" that isn't measured in a paycheck which then frees him up to work outside the home. I wasn't asked to do this, it's a part of my own work ethic. I would not think it was right to not do it. When my parents married, it was common for women to not work outside the home and be "housewives" so this situation was the norm. I also noticed growing up that my friends' mothers did many jobs in the home.

However, my mother didn't work outside the home or inside the home. I can understand this if someone was unable to do it and she does have a mental illness, but she is able to do it, she just won't, and not only does she not feel uncomfortable about it, she seems to act entitled to it.

It's the entitlement I don't understand. My father worked, she controlled the money. He didn't seem to have anything for himself except his hobbies and job. She has the best of everything. He didn't buy these things for himself. She'd order him to do things- he'd do it. I know he was a part of this too and yet, I couldn't treat someone like that.

When I read your paragraph about working, providing, doing the child care yet, she owns the house and the bank account and your kids don't have your name.

What on earth does someone do to feel so deserving of this as well as get someone to go along with it? It was always a mystery to me. Yes, my mother was attractive and there's that aspect to a marriage but that can only go so far in a relationship.

Here's the other side of the mystery- my mother always finds someone to go along with her. Not only in a romantic situation but people who take on caretaker roles with her. There is something about both people in this kind of arrangement. So with regards to your self doubt- yes there has to be aspects to you- and your upbrining possibly that makes you and your wife an emotional match. Perhaps it's the self doubt and people pleasing. But I don't think that's the part that she's unhappy about.

It's interesting because my BPD mother also read a lot of psychology self help books. Her conclusion though was usually that we were responsible for the problem, not her but I wonder now if these were projections.  When your wife is reading this book and saying there are parts that are emotionally difficult for you, perhaps she means her.

You have been in an arrangement - one your wife calls an agreement- that has worked best for her emotional comfort ( as much as that can possibly be). This would be fine if it worked for you as well but you aren't happy with that, and you made a change. This change in dynamics resulted in less comfort for her. So now she's not happy with this. Her instinct is to get you back into these dynamics- as this is familiar for both of you and she's doing what she thinks will work. I don't know if there's any malicious intent with this- it might be just how she perceives it. Your task is to hold on to your perception of yourself..

[truthdevotee]

Hi thanks so so much khibomsis
Your reply is super helpful

I feel sad for the kids. Little boys having to listen to her and her inconsistency caring for them. In some way it makes me tempted to submit. I wouldn't do so now it's gone so far. I feel somehow responsible and sad for my little boys. =(

[Notwendy]

It's tempting to submit for the boys' sakes and in some ways, I think all parents do things for the sake of their children as part of raising them. But consider also that you are role modeling how to be a husband and father for them in both positive and negative ways. You did not do a major thing- you simply called your mother. You stood up for this value and even if it's difficult, do you wish to role model this to your boys? If you stand up for your values you role model this for them too.

[truthdevotee]

I might digress here, but this is a mystery from my childhood that I had a difficult time comprehending. It is in regards to your "controlling marriage".

How does someone see themselves as so deserving? And how do they get someone to go along with it?

During the years of their marriage, my BPD mother didn't earn any money. I don't dispute that relationship as I also stayed home and raised children and have worked but don't earn as much as my H. However, I also contribute in other ways in terms of child care, house work, cleaning, organizing. I do "work" that isn't measured in a paycheck which then frees him up to work outside the home. I wasn't asked to do this, it's a part of my own work ethic. I would not think it was right to not do it. When my parents married, it was common for women to not work outside the home and be "housewives" so this situation was the norm. I also noticed growing up that my friends' mothers did many jobs in the home.

However, my mother didn't work outside the home or inside the home. I can understand this if someone was unable to do it and she does have a mental illness, but she is able to do it, she just won't, and not only does she not feel uncomfortable about it, she seems to act entitled to it.

It's the entitlement I don't understand. My father worked, she controlled the money. He didn't seem to have anything for himself except his hobbies and job. She has the best of everything. He didn't buy these things for himself. She'd order him to do things- he'd do it. I know he was a part of this too and yet, I couldn't treat someone like that.

When I read your paragraph about working, providing, doing the child care yet, she owns the house and the bank account and your kids don't have your name.

What on earth does someone do to feel so deserving of this as well as get someone to go along with it? It was always a mystery to me. Yes, my mother was attractive and there's that aspect to a marriage but that can only go so far in a relationship.

Here's the other side of the mystery- my mother always finds someone to go along with her. Not only in a romantic situation but people who take on caretaker roles with her. There is something about both people in this kind of arrangement. So with regards to your self doubt- yes there has to be aspects to you- and your upbrining possibly that makes you and your wife an emotional match. Perhaps it's the self doubt and people pleasing. But I don't think that's the part that she's unhappy about.

It's interesting because my BPD mother also read a lot of psychology self help books. Her conclusion though was usually that we were responsible for the problem, not her but I wonder now if these were projections.  When your wife is reading this book and saying there are parts that are emotionally difficult for you, perhaps she means her.

You have been in an arrangement - one your wife calls an agreement- that has worked best for her emotional comfort ( as much as that can possibly be). This would be fine if it worked for you as well but you aren't happy with that, and you made a change. This change in dynamics resulted in less comfort for her. So now she's not happy with this. Her instinct is to get you back into these dynamics- as this is familiar for both of you and she's doing what she thinks will work. I don't know if there's any malicious intent with this- it might be just how she perceives it. Your task is to hold on to your perception of yourself..

Thank you... I listened to everything you said, and absorbed it, and will read it again and reflect on it. I'm in a state of grief at the moment, so I won't, for the moment, reply directly to it.

Today it got to the point where I can't do it anymore. I left the house. She is scared that I want to steal her children, so she wouldn't let me take them. She's banned me from using the car (it is hers, after all). I came to my Airbnb flat. On the way, I was sobbing - not for her, but for my boys. I just love them so much and I guess I have tons of attachment to them. I pray for their strength and love to surround them. It hit me that I can't be in the same room as her anymore. Psychologically I'm getting way too exhausted. Whenever I am there, she is raging. Whenever I am not, at least the boys have a peaceful atmosphere.

I've said to her that I don't want to communicate face to face anymore. I'd only do so with a professional mediator or therapist involved. I've stepped away now. It's hard because I cry for my boys, I love them. And I'm praying and I trust God will lead toward the Highest Good. I told my partner that I'll only email or text message. Honestly, we are much more effective that way, because I can step away more easily (i.e. look away from the phone for a few minutes), to self-regulate and not get bombarded by the rage.

It is interesting. I've always noticed a kind of psychic bind between us, where I'll think something and she will say it a few minutes later. Well, it happened. I made the decision internally that I can't talk to her anymore, and I quietly started getting myself ready to leave the house to go to my Airbnb flat. I guess she picked up on it. In one last moment her approach completely changed, as I was leaving the house, she put her hand on my back and said stay and let's resolve it. 2 hours later she was blocking the very same door and raging in my face. I can't trust her to stay calm... so I said I need physical space, and I left.


I told her that I'm grieving.

[truthdevotee]

It's tempting to submit for the boys' sakes and in some ways, I think all parents do things for the sake of their children as part of raising them. But consider also that you are role modeling how to be a husband and father for them in both positive and negative ways. You did not do a major thing- you simply called your mother. You stood up for this value and even if it's difficult, do you wish to role model this to your boys? If you stand up for your values you role model this for them too.

Hi Notwendy, thanks for helping me with this. This is really key as so much grief is related to the boys. Your message helps me reflect beyond the grief.

I remember now why I'm doing this... would I want my boys to stop contacting me, or in any way, shape or form want their partner's to control them? Definitely not... so by following my heart, which is really acting ethically and according to my values, I am showing them how to follow their heart. Ultimately, that is the lesson I would want to teach - don't let someone control you, and know thyself.

Know Thyself. It's exactly this that I didn't do, so I'm learning to do it now at 34 years of age. I'd like them to Know Thyself by the age of 18, so that they have the confidence to follow their heart and not get drowned in so much pain. By removing them from a volatile emotional atmosphere, by removing myself, I'm doing something good.

It is so good to remember this. They can't learn what I haven't learned. If I learn it, then I can teach it by who I am and when they're older, through what I say.

Today I told the boys not to be scared of mummy's anger. I'm not sure if it was appropriate, but despite their young age I sensed they deserve some sort of indicator that it's not healthy and that they are safe.

[truthdevotee]

It is good to reflect on "Know Thyself"

When I first met my partner with BPD, I was addicted to love/dating. My commitment to pwBPD over the years has been a gift in this regard; by committing, I had more resolve to step out of my addiction. I also joined the 12 step groups just before I met her.

The reason I stayed with her, despite alarm bells ringing for me over several weeks, was because my sponsor advised it. He's a strong minded fellow. Since I didn't have resolve of my own and didn't know myself, I listened to him. Ultimately, I believe this was all a gift - I needed him and I still benefit from his guidance, and he's an extremely big hearted fellow. If I knew myself better at the time and had the confidence to listen to my heart, I wouldn't have stayed. I don't blame him at all, he was just there to be asked for guidance and over the years he has helped me understand manhood and grow into a man. With an emotionally absent father growing up, I was attracted to male sponsors in their 60s or 70s to guide me and help me become disciplined, confident, loyal, effective, etc. So it was all perfect - I see that my strong minded sponsor had his own learning curve and comparing to a few years ago, he appears different to me.

So yeah, this is just a small reflection on Know Thyself. It's this lesson I've needed to learn the hard way.

I don't really know myself yet but I suppose I will, going forward, listen to all the thoughts and emotions within me and take them as a guide. I will also make sure I don't fall into old addictive behavior.

[truthdevotee]

Her latest email:

But I do not want to leave the boys from now on I want to be all the time with them even if it is not helpful for managing stuff.

If you want them either we have to find the way how to communicate or it would have to be agreed through a court.

[Cat Familiar]

So many of us here have had no idea what an emotionally healthy relationship is. Here’s a good overview: https://bpdfamily.com/content/characteristics-healthy-relationships

One thing comes through in all your threads: you never learned to trust yourself at a young age and have sought feedback and opinions from others.

Now you’re learning that some of the advice given, which was undoubtedly well meaning, was not appropriate for you.

And you’ve become aware at how much your wife is seeking to control you, not for your best interests, but for her own.

It’s an important step in individuation and maturation to listen to and trust our own internal feedback. And if you haven’t been doing that, it’s a leap of faith.

What I’ve found is that the more I trust myself, the clearer the internal voice becomes. Yes, mistakes and poor judgment still happen, but once one becomes aware of that, then better decisions can take place.

The important thing is to listen to your own internal wisdom.

[Notwendy]

She's just raising the bar isn't she? The boys are your vulnerable spot. So she wants to be with them all the time? Sure, see how long that lasts. You know her track record with that.

My suggestion would be to try to keep your cool and not react emotionally to this. In 12 steps there's the idea of "emotional sobriety" which describes this. When you feel as if you are being emotionally prodded somehow, emotionally that's the equivalent of being tempted with alcohol or drugs. Don't pick it up.

Outrageous reactions are emotionally based. What did you do that deserves this? You called your mother. This is quite the reaction.

However, she is probably capable of truly causing hurt to you and this is a diffficult one. I was emotionally vulnerable when it came to my father. When she was angry at me she did succeed at doing damage to that relaitonship. She could control me through that attachment.

Your #1 obligation to your boys is to protect them. However, if she insists on being there all the time with them and she isn't going to hurt them, then ok she can be there. I generally think natural consequences are a good thing as long as anyone isn't in serious danger from them. Let her see what "all the time" with two active young boys is really like.

You could choose to not respond to this or to not argue it and reply "I enjoy the time with the boys and I'm sure they'd love having you there too"

[Notwendy]

Just keep your boundary that you are not going to communicate your issues face to face. Surely there will be a time when the two of you are both there with the boys. A boundary that you aren't going to speak at all face to face may not be feasable. She's putting you in this bind. If you want to see the boys, she has to be there too. Then you have to be face to face.

So perhaps a better reply now that I have thought about it would be " I don't wish to discuss our issues face to face and especially in front of the boys. However, we are both their parents and if you insist on being with the boys as well, I'm sure they would love your company too. I don't wish to have discussions about our issues or argue in their presence"

Perhaps that's a boundary you can keep.

[truthdevotee]

Hi Notwendy

I just saw your reply. A few things unfolded meanwhile.

Essentially I highlighted that I'm well prepared for the legal battle and already initiated support with a professional mediator. My anger was coming up when writing the emails and I'm a way, and I'm not sure if this was healthy or appropriate (I'm open to feedback) I told her I have documented evidence of her out of control behaviour as well as my high level of support towards our family. It was basically questioning if she wants to go down this route and that I'm surprised she would be willing to let the kids go through no contact with their father, that I would never block contact with their mother.

I was at the point where any communication was extremely highly charged from her and creating hell for the boys and intense stress for me. Additionally this all occurred after letting a big load of grief come out as tears.

In essence I kind of came down hard on the lawyer thing and said this isn't a route either of us want to go down, but if she refuses to let me see my children I will fight ASAP for joint or full custody and I will be successful.

The result was her backtracking. She's talking calmly, at least for the moment. In this state of calm I said we can definitely communicate tonight. So that's the plan, and I'll see how it goes. I hit they pause button with my lawyer and informed him she had a change of tone.

I'm not sure if this will be consistent. I hope so...

Instinctively, I fought. Again I don't know if this was good. But I'm happy she is calm right now and not creating havoc. She admitted she says things without meaning to for the first time. For example, she didn't mean to throw me out of the house but she said it (and subsequently felt upset that it actually occurred). I said resolutely that this must stop, she must learn to control impulsivity either through self reflection or therapeutic help. I wrote - "
I love you and I cannot be with you when you say things out of whatever emotion you are feeling, that you do not truly believe in. You told me several times to get out, so, I did. Now you're upset about that because I'm supposed to love you in a way that would allow you to say or do whatever you're feeling in the moment?
I am sorry but that's not how marriage works for me. "

I really hope this isn't just another momentary calm and the next rage in the way. It could be though...

Tomorrow I need to let the owner of the Airbnb flat know if I'll continue to stay there until the end of march. I guess maybe I should keep the flat until there's a consistent change in the atmosphere in front of the boys.

I'll read your message again Notwendy, just wanted to quickly share this

[Notwendy]

You are in a long standing pattern with her and there's a push pull to this. I think even someone with BPD can sense when they have pushed too far. This will cause fear and the response is to pull back, even start to "push" for the relationship again. In the push pull pattern, once the pull has been successful, the pattern is likely to resume. It's odd that BPD affects the most intimate relationships- and so she feels safe enough in a way to rage at you. When she's sensed she's gone too far, she may not.

You are part of this as you do the other stepsr in the pattern. But if you don't want to be in the pattern, you need to change the steps. This isn't easy as you don't know the steps yet, but a goal is to not push, not pull but hold a calm middle ground and your boudaries.

You pushed back- with the lawyer statement. She then quieted down and you put the lawyer on hold. Do you see how you are still following the steps? You pushed, she pulled, you stopped.

It isn't wrong that you "fought back" but you didn't "fight back" with a boundary you could hold. The lawyer statement will be an empty threat now since you didn't follow through. This doesn't mean you should go through with the lawyer, especially if you don't want to. If you were determined to go through with that, it would be based on you, not her reaction. Her reaction would not change your decision.

Also don't base your actions on her words in the moment. She said get out, you got out. Now she says come back, you cancel the Airbnb?  It's good you stood up for yourself. The "this is not how marriage works for me" is a great statement as it reflects YOU, it says nothing about her. Stay focused on that.

If you keep the flat or not, make this about you. Keeping the flat allows you to have some quiet space for work. If this is enough of a reason for you then keep it. Keeping the flat to teach her a lesson or to make her change probably isn't.

Be good to yourself. I also jumped in with both feet when setting boundaries with my mother. The result was total chaos and insanity and a hugely mean response from her. But we start somewhere and it's how we learn. It may not be perfect. This is why one boundary, one issue, at a time is easier to manage. You did the one with the parents, you got a quiet place to work. Now suddenly you've added the lawyer, time with the boys all this stuff-- over one thing- calling your mother.

Stay focused on that boundary. "I know we have issues honey, but I want to speak to my parents". I have leased a place to work as I need a quiet space to work". And when she rages at you. "I don't wish to be spoken to like this" and walk away.

[truthdevotee]

You are in a long standing pattern with her and there's a push pull to this. I think even someone with BPD can sense when they have pushed too far. This will cause fear and the response is to pull back, even start to "push" for the relationship again. In the push pull pattern, once the pull has been successful, the pattern is likely to resume. It's odd that BPD affects the most intimate relationships- and so she feels safe enough in a way to rage at you. When she's sensed she's gone too far, she may not.

You are part of this as you do the other stepsr in the pattern. But if you don't want to be in the pattern, you need to change the steps. This isn't easy as you don't know the steps yet, but a goal is to not push, not pull but hold a calm middle ground and your boudaries.

Notwendy, thanks so much for helping me to understand this. Calm middle ground. Makes complete sense. I see I was operating from fear and showing "muscle." Force results in counterforce. But real power (calm middle ground) is like a field, like gravity.

You pushed back- with the lawyer statement. She then quieted down and you put the lawyer on hold. Do you see how you are still following the steps? You pushed, she pulled, you stopped.

Wow, yes, I see it. I see...

It isn't wrong that you "fought back" but you didn't "fight back" with a boundary you could hold. The lawyer statement will be an empty threat now since you didn't follow through. This doesn't mean you should go through with the lawyer, especially if you don't want to. If you were determined to go through with that, it would be based on you, not her reaction. Her reaction would not change your decision.

Wow, I see. I was trying to force her by threatening, rather than simply being true to myself.

Also don't base your actions on her words in the moment. She said get out, you got out. Now she says come back, you cancel the Airbnb?  It's good you stood up for yourself. The "this is not how marriage works for me" is a great statement as it reflects YOU, it says nothing about her. Stay focused on that.

Thanks Notwendy.

So the thing with the flat, this was an authentic act on my part. I failed to mention that my wife throwing me out of the house happened after I'd already arranged the airbnb accommodation, because I needed a warm place to take the children and a place to go when her anger got out of hand.

If you keep the flat or not, make this about you. Keeping the flat allows you to have some quiet space for work. If this is enough of a reason for you then keep it. Keeping the flat to teach her a lesson or to make her change probably isn't.

Thank you... I see

Tonight we talked and she was much calmer. I learned that she didn't see all my emails. I assumed they were the reason she calmed down. She says that it was more the pain she could feel in our son that encouraged her to shift into calm.

Tonight we were able to write a list of agreements. I'm not sure how fruitful it will be but it felt more positive.

On the other hand, I now see I'm getting enmeshed with her on the Airbnb thing. I need to make a strong decision tomorrow whether to keep it or not. The flat is beautiful, the location is a little too far. She believes my company should pay for it, i guess they won't do that. Yeah, although we had a more connected and calm chat and she showed tears vulnerably, I see I'm more pulled in and thinking through her eyes as a result...

Be good to yourself. I also jumped in with both feet when setting boundaries with my mother. The result was total chaos and insanity and a hugely mean response from her. But we start somewhere and it's how we learn. It may not be perfect. This is why one boundary, one issue, at a time is easier to manage. You did the one with the parents, you got a quiet place to work. Now suddenly you've added the lawyer, time with the boys all this stuff-- over one thing- calling your mother.

Stay focused on that boundary. "I know we have issues honey, but I want to speak to my parents". I have leased a place to work as I need a quiet space to work". And when she rages at you. "I don't wish to be spoken to like this" and walk away.

Thank you..
Wow its tough. Yeah... Moving too fast.
I get the feeling things will stay largely the same. I notice within myself more fear of keeping the flat and spending the money until the end of the month, ironically because we "connected."
I feel sad for the pain of my older son. He feels it.
I used the lawyer to control her response and to threaten in order to force change. That's not good... But you're right, it's like learning a new skill.
The flat is so perfect for work. I may need to keep it and go through the anger she'll have about that.

I see how I've played into the pattern because I feel weaker rather than stronger right now. Strong in the sense of making authentic decisions and not trying to control her.

[truthdevotee]

Just keep your boundary that you are not going to communicate your issues face to face. Surely there will be a time when the two of you are both there with the boys. A boundary that you aren't going to speak at all face to face may not be feasable. She's putting you in this bind. If you want to see the boys, she has to be there too. Then you have to be face to face.

So perhaps a better reply now that I have thought about it would be " I don't wish to discuss our issues face to face and especially in front of the boys. However, we are both their parents and if you insist on being with the boys as well, I'm sure they would love your company too. I don't wish to have discussions about our issues or argue in their presence"

Perhaps that's a boundary you can keep.

I set this boundary today and wrote it down on our agreements list. I let her know i don't want to talk about marriage topics in front of the boys, she agreed to that. We agreed no anger blame and abuse, 4 to 5 nights a week of connection, finish the evenings on a light note, reminding gently in case an agreement is forgotten, no walking away however timeouts are permitted with the promise of coming back, in front of the kids only connection on light topics that connect us, no unslicited advice giving, no psychoanalysis of one another or our FOOs, etc.

Are these types of agreements healthy?

I also prefer not to talk about the history of the situation with my FOO as this can end up in a lot of dissatisfaction for her, I think because the pain runs so deep for her that no amount of validation helps. However she didn't agree to that yet. I prefer she talk to someone else about it as it is the primary topic that creates turmoil between us and for the boys.

[truthdevotee]

Signs that the agreements we wrote down won't be taken seriously this morning. She now says she doesn't agree with them all. So I need to continue to keep the boundary of no talking about our stuff in front of the children.

Since I wasnt really setting a boundary with the lawyer thing but using it like a threat and a warning, I sense I've probably made things worse? Short term she's much calmer she to fear of loss, long term it probably caused more anguish for her.

[truthdevotee]

You are in a long standing pattern with her and there's a push pull to this. I think even someone with BPD can sense when they have pushed too far. This will cause fear and the response is to pull back, even start to "push" for the relationship again. In the push pull pattern, once the pull has been successful, the pattern is likely to resume. It's odd that BPD affects the most intimate relationships- and so she feels safe enough in a way to rage at you. When she's sensed she's gone too far, she may not.

You are part of this as you do the other stepsr in the pattern. But if you don't want to be in the pattern, you need to change the steps. This isn't easy as you don't know the steps yet, but a goal is to not push, not pull but hold a calm middle ground and your boudaries.

You pushed back- with the lawyer statement. She then quieted down and you put the lawyer on hold. Do you see how you are still following the steps? You pushed, she pulled, you stopped.

It isn't wrong that you "fought back" but you didn't "fight back" with a boundary you could hold. The lawyer statement will be an empty threat now since you didn't follow through. This doesn't mean you should go through with the lawyer, especially if you don't want to. If you were determined to go through with that, it would be based on you, not her reaction. Her reaction would not change your decision.

Also don't base your actions on her words in the moment. She said get out, you got out. Now she says come back, you cancel the Airbnb?  It's good you stood up for yourself. The "this is not how marriage works for me" is a great statement as it reflects YOU, it says nothing about her. Stay focused on that.

If you keep the flat or not, make this about you. Keeping the flat allows you to have some quiet space for work. If this is enough of a reason for you then keep it. Keeping the flat to teach her a lesson or to make her change probably isn't.

Be good to yourself. I also jumped in with both feet when setting boundaries with my mother. The result was total chaos and insanity and a hugely mean response from her. But we start somewhere and it's how we learn. It may not be perfect. This is why one boundary, one issue, at a time is easier to manage. You did the one with the parents, you got a quiet place to work. Now suddenly you've added the lawyer, time with the boys all this stuff-- over one thing- calling your mother.

Stay focused on that boundary. "I know we have issues honey, but I want to speak to my parents". I have leased a place to work as I need a quiet space to work". And when she rages at you. "I don't wish to be spoken to like this" and walk away.

I read this again Notwendy. It's very helpful. I see how I stepped away from focusing on myself and started to use the lawyer thing to change my wife's behaviour. Subjectively, with the lawyer thing I was acting out anger even if it was calm anger and via email. When I set true boundaries, its much more like "I feel therefore I need..."

[truthdevotee]

I just read this in the Stop Caretaking book :

Keep in mind that you cannot enforce a boundary or limit that you have no power over. You hold power primarily over what you will do if the boundary is breached. It is also helpful to set limits only about the things that are really important enough to warrant the amount of energy and emotional strength that it will require you to follow through.

Since I never really wanted to follow through with pursuing a joint or full custody, via court, it was empty and a fear based threat rather than a boundary and limit based on self love.

[truthdevotee]

This way, he moved slowly back into a more social life for himself, even though his wife wouldn’t join him and didn’t really like what he was doing. He stayed calm and continued doing what he had decided to do. Your BP/NP partner might complain that you are gone too much, that you don’t love him or her anymore, that you are being mean or selfish, and so on, so it is very important that you have solidly established your confidence and esteem and let go of thinking that the BP/NP’s words and thoughts mean anything about you. The BP/NP’s anger and accusations will be less intimidating when you know that it is only his or her mental illness talking and really isn’t about you.

[khibomsis]

truthdevotee, you are doing OK. At last she is realizing that you won't be intimidated back into the old you. Well done!

Boundaries indeed are things we do for ourselves, to make our relationships livable. I would have hated to see for you to rolemodel for your sons that it is OK not to phone your mother. So I am glad you are showing a more positive example. I know it is hard to feel positive when you are so tired and mentally exhausted, but there is progress.

I hope you are able to take the flat for the rest of the month. Preschool is still closed right? You need to be able to work and rest, it will be easier to think clearer when your needs for rest are met.  There is nothing wrong with asking your boss if the company will pay for it - all she can say is no.

I think seeing a lawyer is a great idea in and of itself, i.e. not as a threat but as a thing worth doing. As you can see you cannot trust her word from day to day. This is a BPD thing - diminished executive function. So it is good even to get your existing situation in writing.

Attack is the best form of defense. Meaning, in the context of the bettering board, I would suggest continue shaping your life into something that is the the way you want it, livable for you and a positive relationship rolemodel for your boys. Don't stop now just when boundaries are working. Your wife is more likely to leave your FOO alone if she has other things to occupy her mind.

[truthdevotee]

The rages are very intense and full of hatred and the desire to hurt. So I have no idea why just 3 hours later I want to hope things might magically change... That's a sort of insanity... Is that common?

I think it is and I don't really know why this is. I do think that the rages serve as a relief/reset function. I have described it like a kid who ate too much candy. They then have a stomach ache and throw up. After that, they feel fine, like it never happened.

I have noticed that after a rage, the person is most lucid, and clear- it's then that we see the "person" as we wish we saw them all the time but it gives us hope. Like the kid with the stomach ache- they feel fine, the bad feelings are out and to them they are gone. They expect us to feel the same way - act as if it never happened.

It's the oddest thing to observe actually. But it seems to me to be a cycle.

Thanks Notwendy.

I just read this in the book -
Wearing you down is one way the BP/NP discourages you from doing what you want.

I wonder if in my partner's case this is what's happening, as well as some desire for revenge in getting me to feel some emotional pain because she is feeling it.

[Notwendy]

Wearing you down is one way the BP/NP discourages you from doing what you want.


For me, it is helpful to look at behaviors through the Karpman triangle. My personal opinion is that someone with BPD sees things through victim mode. This leaves two other roles for other people in their lives- rescuer or persecutor. Also know that people can take on any of these roles, and even with themselves. It doesn't need three people. Two people can take on these roles with each other. You can also get on this "triangle" in any of the roles. The end result though is feeling like a victim.

How does one avoid the triangle? It's not easy as it can be a habit. You've been a rescuer type but also feel like a victim having given up so much.

That "keep your cool" middle ground is a start and also some self awareness about how you may be contributing to the drama.

What I have observed ( and this is just my observation, not any kind of professional opinion) is that drama starts when one takes victim position. If that's the person with BPD's position, there can't be another one. To them, you are the rescuer.

I think the "revenge" you speak of is a part of the triangle. If you were to truly believe that someone was hurting you, you would hurt them back- even as a part of defending yourself. I saw a statement once that said "hurting people hurt others" and I think there's some truth to this. This doesn't mean she isn't accountable for her actions. She is. It's just if you see it as "revenge" this is in a way "victim perspective"- she's doing it to you. But it is easier to not react back to it ( staying on the triangle) if you see it as about her. If you react by feeling hurt yourself- it's more triangle.

I found it helpful to see things from the perspective that- this triangle is a pattern, along with the push-pull pattern and to see where I also have my own roles in this. This doesn't mean you act remotely or coldly to your wife- but that you respond from thinking clearly, not react emotionally to her behavior or what she says and try to stay mindful of when you are taking on a role in the "triangle" in your interactions.

It doesn't mean not being helpful or caring. But catch your motivation. Are you doing something out of fear of her reaction or from a decision that you are willing to do it? The same action can be considered part of the drama ( co-dependent) or not, it's your motivation and emotions behind it.

There isn't anything wrong with consulting a lawyer for information. It's a good idea to know you legal rights in a relationship. What you do with this information is your decision. Like you said- using it in anger as a way to get her to back down is making this about her, not you, and you then take on persecutor role in the triangle. Using it for peace of mind to keep your cool when she makes threats is probably more valuable. She might say " I will take the boys and you won't see them" but if you know legally that you have rights to see them, then this isn't as scary a threat. You won't react to it as much.


The "wearing you down" to keep you from doing what you want maybe more about them managing their own fears and anxiety than the thing you want to do. "Don't talk to your family" may be more about "if you talk to your family you will tell them about me and they will encourage you to leave" or "you will talk to them about me and I will feel shame". Sometimes the thing they are objecting to isn't the actual reason but something they fear might happen if you do it.

[truthdevotee]

truthdevotee, you are doing OK. At last she is realizing that you won't be intimidated back into the old you. Well done!

Boundaries indeed are things we do for ourselves, to make our relationships livable. I would have hated to see for you to rolemodel for your sons that it is OK not to phone your mother. So I am glad you are showing a more positive example. I know it is hard to feel positive when you are so tired and mentally exhausted, but there is progress.

I just saw your message, thanks so so much. I'm extremely depleted today. So tired... Its great to have your support...

I hope you are able to take the flat for the rest of the month. Preschool is still closed right? You need to be able to work and rest, it will be easier to think clearer when your needs for rest are met.  There is nothing wrong with asking your boss if the company will pay for it - all she can say is no.

Yeah they're still closed.. My employer says she can't... Also she is noticing something else is going on, intuiting that it is not a physical sickness problem in my home. I'll write an email to explain, I guess. I haven't kept this flat in the end because it was too far away to walk and my wife blocked the car (she is the official owner) by threatening to call the police if I used it. I will find an Airbnb private room for work, walking distance.

I think seeing a lawyer is a great idea in and of itself, i.e. not as a threat but as a thing worth doing. As you can see you cannot trust her word from day to day. This is a BPD thing - diminished executive function. So it is good even to get your existing situation in writing.

Thanks... Yeah, I just can't trust... Even her memory of events is so so different to mine.

Attack is the best form of defense. Meaning, in the context of the bettering board, I would suggest continue shaping your life into something that is the the way you want it, livable for you and a positive relationship rolemodel for your boys. Don't stop now just when boundaries are working. Your wife is more likely to leave your FOO alone if she has other things to occupy her mind.

Thanks... Somehow I've lost focus last two days. I've started getting drawn into long listening sessions. I'm not feeling any desire for intimacy at this point

[truthdevotee]

Wearing you down is one way the BP/NP discourages you from doing what you want.


For me, it is helpful to look at behaviors through the Karpman triangle. My personal opinion is that someone with BPD sees things through victim mode. This leaves two other roles for other people in their lives- rescuer or persecutor. Also know that people can take on any of these roles, and even with themselves. It doesn't need three people. Two people can take on these roles with each other. You can also get on this "triangle" in any of the roles. The end result though is feeling like a victim.

How does one avoid the triangle? It's not easy as it can be a habit. You've been a rescuer type but also feel like a victim having given up so much.

That "keep your cool" middle ground is a start and also some self awareness about how you may be contributing to the drama.

What I have observed ( and this is just my observation, not any kind of professional opinion) is that drama starts when one takes victim position. If that's the person with BPD's position, there can't be another one. To them, you are the rescuer.

I think the "revenge" you speak of is a part of the triangle. If you were to truly believe that someone was hurting you, you would hurt them back- even as a part of defending yourself. I saw a statement once that said "hurting people hurt others" and I think there's some truth to this. This doesn't mean she isn't accountable for her actions. She is. It's just if you see it as "revenge" this is in a way "victim perspective"- she's doing it to you. But it is easier to not react back to it ( staying on the triangle) if you see it as about her. If you react by feeling hurt yourself- it's more triangle.

I found it helpful to see things from the perspective that- this triangle is a pattern, along with the push-pull pattern and to see where I also have my own roles in this. This doesn't mean you act remotely or coldly to your wife- but that you respond from thinking clearly, not react emotionally to her behavior or what she says and try to stay mindful of when you are taking on a role in the "triangle" in your interactions.

It doesn't mean not being helpful or caring. But catch your motivation. Are you doing something out of fear of her reaction or from a decision that you are willing to do it? The same action can be considered part of the drama ( co-dependent) or not, it's your motivation and emotions behind it.

There isn't anything wrong with consulting a lawyer for information. It's a good idea to know you legal rights in a relationship. What you do with this information is your decision. Like you said- using it in anger as a way to get her to back down is making this about her, not you, and you then take on persecutor role in the triangle. Using it for peace of mind to keep your cool when she makes threats is probably more valuable. She might say " I will take the boys and you won't see them" but if you know legally that you have rights to see them, then this isn't as scary a threat. You won't react to it as much.


The "wearing you down" to keep you from doing what you want maybe more about them managing their own fears and anxiety than the thing you want to do. "Don't talk to your family" may be more about "if you talk to your family you will tell them about me and they will encourage you to leave" or "you will talk to them about me and I will feel shame". Sometimes the thing they are objecting to isn't the actual reason but something they fear might happen if you do it.

Thanks so much Notwendy, this is so insightful and encouraging. It gives me more clarity.

[truthdevotee]

So many of us here have had no idea what an emotionally healthy relationship is. Here’s a good overview: https://bpdfamily.com/content/characteristics-healthy-relationships

One thing comes through in all your threads: you never learned to trust yourself at a young age and have sought feedback and opinions from others.

Now you’re learning that some of the advice given, which was undoubtedly well meaning, was not appropriate for you.

And you’ve become aware at how much your wife is seeking to control you, not for your best interests, but for her own.

It’s an important step in individuation and maturation to listen to and trust our own internal feedback. And if you haven’t been doing that, it’s a leap of faith.

What I’ve found is that the more I trust myself, the clearer the internal voice becomes. Yes, mistakes and poor judgment still happen, but once one becomes aware of that, then better decisions can take place.

The important thing is to listen to your own internal wisdom.

I was just browsing the history of your posts to deepen my learning in general.

I came across this one which was posted in reply to one of the threads I started, but which i must have missed!

This is so true - so much of my learning is about trusting this inner voice.

It's so true all the advice I've been given has come from loving people with good intentions. At 34 years of age, I'm learning to consider what my own heart and mind tells me. I believe that this almost complete lack of inner trust and discernment is related to the OCD I experienced and which i take SSRI medication for. OCD was classically referred to as the "doubting disease."

I'm practicing this now... The voice of doubt appears and the "what if I'm wrong" appears in my mind, but now there's a new voice showing up - "what if I'm correct" and "I can choose to trust this feeling/thought, even though I could be mistaken, it's important to me to listen to it and let it be my guide to action"