How do BPD mothers do as children get older and become more challenging?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I'm in a co-parenting relationship with a BPD mother. Our daughter is almost 2 years old and we have another on the way. I'm concerned about how she will cope as a parent beyond the infant/toddler stage. Any experiences / advice would be appreciated.

The mother has quite a severe case of BPD and is only allowed to look after our child because I'm there as well. I would actually prefer to live (coparent) separately but that's not possible.

She is extremely messy and lazy. She is also prone to fits of rage over delusional stuff, such as imagining that I'm trying to set up her up with other women. I cope with her moodiness by disengaging. I have to hire cleaners. I do pretty much all the adult things, like earning an income, grocery shopping and cooking. I try to avoid arguing, though she sometimes goes on rants without me doing anything.

But she is actually good as a mother in many respects. She spends large amounts of time with our daughter, reads to her, takes her on outings, etc. She is loving overall.

The concern I have is what happens as our daughters get older? They will realize at some stage that their mother is strange and has dysfunctional or non-existent relationships with others.

Are there potential psychological issues ahead? Can a BPD mother maintain solid relationships with her kids even though her relationships with adults are invariably turbulent? Do parent-child relationships eventually fall apart for people with BPD?

[summerholiday]

I'm in a co-parenting relationship with a BPD mother. Our daughter is almost 2 years old and we have another on the way. I'm concerned about how she will cope as a parent beyond the infant/toddler stage. Any experiences / advice would be appreciated.

The mother has quite a severe case of BPD and is only allowed to look after our child because I'm there as well. I would actually prefer to live (coparent) separately but that's not possible.

She is extremely messy and lazy. She is also prone to fits of rage over delusional stuff, such as imagining that I'm trying to set up her up with other women. I cope with her moodiness by disengaging. I have to hire cleaners. I do pretty much all the adult things, like earning an income, grocery shopping and cooking. I try to avoid arguing, though she sometimes goes on rants without me doing anything.

But she is actually good as a mother in many respects. She spends large amounts of time with our daughter, reads to her, takes her on outings, etc. She is loving overall.

The concern I have is what happens as our daughters get older? They will realize at some stage that their mother is strange and has dysfunctional or non-existent relationships with others.

Are there potential psychological issues ahead? Can a BPD mother maintain solid relationships with her kids even though her relationships with adults are invariably turbulent? Do parent-child relationships eventually fall apart for people with BPD?

[zachira]

I have just started reading "Raising Resilient Children with a Borderline or Narcissistic Parent" by Margalis Fjelstad and Jean McBride. I know that Margalis Fjelstad is highly regarded for her knowledge of how to deal with people with BPD and NPD. So far, this book looks like a must read if you have children with a partner who is borderline or narcissistic. 

[Notwendy]

I didn't realize there was a book like this. Surely it's quite helpful.

I didn't know my mother had BPD until I was an adult, so her behavior was puzzling. Add to that - we were not allowed to speak about it. We were to pretend all was "normal" but yes as you said, I noticed my friends' mothers were different somehow and didn't know why.

Are there potential issues? I think that's inevitable. How it turns out dependes on a lot of things. But one issue is the child's normal development for autonomy and a parent who isn't able to emotionally handle that.

I like that you only allow your partner to watch your child when you are there. I didn't leave my kids alone with my BPD mother for that reason.They are young adults now.

I think that you will see a variety of situations on the "parent with BPD" board from the adult child having no contact to trying to maintain some kind of contact but with boundaries.

I also think a lot of the outcome depends on you and other responsible adults/role models who your child is in contact with.  I credit my father for providing for us and being a stable presence. I think this can be done whether or not the two of you live together. The teen age years were tough as by then I knew what appropriate behavior was and was expected to behave, while my BPD mother behaved in ways I knew wasn't OK. I was treated both as another adult in the home- expected to feel responsible for her feelings and then, expected to obey because I was still a child.

I think at some point it would benefit your child to have some kind of explanation. There is less stigma about mental illness now and more is known about BPD. This is a ways off but something to consider when she's old enough.

[summerholiday]

I see what you mean Notwendy about having to take on adult-like responsibilities while your mother wasn't held to the same standard. I guess I've already started on working on teaching our first daughter to be a bit more independent than your average kid to compensate for a mother who can be unreliable. I'm teaching her to clean up after herself for example. But there also needs to be some balance to this.

Will check out the "parent with BPD" board for experiences, though imagine the sample might be a bit skewed. Am hoping that my kids will eventually see my mother as eccentric rather than as someone who left them feel shortchanged as far as their childhood went.

[P.F.Change]

But she is actually good as a mother in many respects. She spends large amounts of time with our daughter, reads to her, takes her on outings, etc. She is loving overall.

The concern I have is what happens as our daughters get older? They will realize at some stage that their mother is strange and has dysfunctional or non-existent relationships with others.

Hi, summerholiday. It's good to see your post. It sounds like you are working very hard to make as good  a life as possible for your family. I think you have some very valid concerns, and I'm also really encouraged that you recognize your co-parent's strengths as well as her weaknesses.

Someone once told me that problems will become apparent when their child surpasses their level of emotional development. There could be something to that. At any rate, a child will normally individuate away from their parents and begin to express their own independence, will, and desires. Every parent struggles with this at some point and at some level (think about toddlers and teens), but for a parent with BPD, who may not be able to fully understand their child is not an extension of their own self or who has relied on the adorableness and neediness of their infant to give them a sense of worth and purpose, those normal developmental stages can feel threatening. A child's growing up feels like abandonment.

I'm afraid it is not possible for someone with BPD to only have the disorder in their relationships with other adults and to stop having it in their relationship with their child. The volatility that impacts their adult relationships will also certainly impact their relationship with their children. Kids are not immune to their parents' disordered behaviors; on the contrary, they usually experience the worst of them. They don't think their parent is quirky or eccentric; they experience the same rages you do when there is no adult to stop it, and they feel responsible. Unless a child has constant messages from stable adults to the contrary, they will grow up believing there is something wrong with them instead. I agree with Notwendy that it might be helpful for you to at least read some of the lessons on the "parent with BPD" board, such as Workshop on Problematic Parenting. Is your co-parent participating in any kind of therapy for her BPD?

I think it is good for children to learn some responsibility and independence in age-appropriate ways, such as how to clean up their toys and tie their shoes. I do feel a little sad because of the way you said you are teaching your daughter to compensate for her unreliable mother. It's hard for a child to feel responsible for adult things. Is it possible that you are sending a message that she needs to parent her mother instead of the other way around?

I do feel concerned for you as well, summerholiday, because of the amount of "fixing" you are doing to try to manage everything all on your own. I hear a lot of resentment coming through underneath it all, and that's understandable. How are you looking after yourself? Do you have a counselor of your own?


(edited to add link)

[P.F.Change]

I have just started reading "Raising Resilient Children with a Borderline or Narcissistic Parent" by Margalis Fjelstad and Jean McBride. I know that Margalis Fjelstad is highly regarded for her knowledge of how to deal with people with BPD and NPD. So far, this book looks like a must read if you have children with a partner who is borderline or narcissistic. 

I will put this on my reading list, thank you for the recommendation, zachira.

[summerholiday]

At any rate, a child will normally individuate away from their parents and begin to express their own independence, will, and desires. Every parent struggles with this at some point and at some level (think about toddlers and teens), but for a parent with BPD, who may not be able to fully understand their child is not an extension of their own self or who has relied on the adorableness and neediness of their infant to give them a sense of worth and purpose, those normal developmental stages can feel threatening. A child's growing up feels like abandonment.

That's a very good point you raise. A friend of mine once said that, around 13 or so, his boys stopped finding his jokes funny. That pretty much marked the end of close father-son relationships as they orientated towards their school mates, etc.

That kind of shift would be devastating for the BPD mother here and I don't think she would cope well. There is a strong narcissistic element to her mothering, though she does take the role seriously. I guess it's a matter of problem solving as you go, trying to maintain stability and finding non-triggering activities that everyone can do.

Is your co-parent participating in any kind of therapy for her BPD?

She is often doing some kind of therapy or something with someone (e.g. psychiatrist, counsellor, pastor, church group). But it doesn't work generally speaking. She presents her own version of reality to them. The sessions can be extremely counterproductive actually because she paints herself as some sort of victim. With the encouragement of the therapist to be more assertive, she comes away angrier and more difficult to deal with if that's possible.

Is it possible that you are sending a message that she needs to parent her mother instead of the other way around?

Not yet anyway. Everyone needs to learn life skills and I'll just be working on that more with my daughters than usual. They'll need a higher level of independence early just to better deal with the situation. It's a practical matter really rather than an attempt to shift roles.

I do feel concerned for you as well, summerholiday, because of the amount of "fixing" you are doing to try to manage everything all on your own. I hear a lot of resentment coming through underneath it all, and that's understandable. How are you looking after yourself? Do you have a counselor of your own?

You're right - I do feel resentful. It is a new kind of abuse I've discovered here - mooching off someone, sprinkled with verbal abuse.

I'm generally good at processing things and feel like this a community service I'm doing. If she wasn't with me, she would be in deep trouble somewhere else. I think I'm coping OK for the most part. Our daughter is bright, strong and happy. That makes it more than worthwhile right now.

[Notwendy]

I can assure you that the "parent with BPD" board is not skewed, and in fact, I bet some of the posters have shown considerable restraint in posting about their BPD parents.

I find your assumption that it's skewed and your hopes that your children won't feel shortchanged as adults and also see their mother as excentric to be quite interesting because it parallels the statements I heard as a child " don't be silly, your mother is fine" "your mother loves you". These were quite invalidating.

PF Chang made an observation that issues arise as the child emotionally outgrows the emotional age of the parent. I knew something was going on with my mother by this time. I didn't have a name for it but still I had enough maturity to know she wasn't just "eccentric".  It's better for me to understand her from the viewpoint of her having a mental illness rather than to be excentric because it's easier to put the way she has behaved ( and still does) in context of her mental illness rather than her being a competent adult who is just merely eccentric.

[summerholiday]

I can assure you that the "parent with BPD" board is not skewed, and in fact, I bet some of the posters have shown considerable restraint in posting about their BPD parents.

I should have explained the "skewed" comment. I was referring to sampling bias. Essentially every forum that people seek out like this one have a heavy sample bias. People choosing to research this issue in depth and participate have most likely been more significantly impacted than is typical. That's just a statistical reality. It doesn't mean they are misrepresenting themselves.

This is something I've seen in other forums. For example, I do the admin for a university review forum where the vast majority of reviews are negative. People are much more motivated to comment when they've had a negative experience.

II find your assumption that it's skewed and your hopes that your children won't feel shortchanged as adults and also see their mother as eccentric to be quite interesting because it parallels the statements I heard as a child " don't be silly, your mother is fine" "your mother loves you". These were quite invalidating.

I see your point. Some adults could easily get carried away with trying to normalize the experiences of a child, to the point where they slip into misrepresentation.

A less negative perception of a person can be created by achieving a more positive experience for the person forming the perception. That's what I really meant. It's different from not facing up to reality. I'm trying to understand my co-parent as much as possible and will try to find the best way of honestly explaining the situation to our children whenever required. But the main task as I see it is to manage everything so the kids will actually thrive and have functional relationships with their mother.

[Notwendy]

BPD is known to exist on a spectrum, so yes, the milder end of the spectrum may not be as represented. On the other hand, those who seek out help may also be the ones who are seeking to maintain some kind of functional relationship with their BPD mother.

Like you, my father had a lot to do with the relatively good outcome of their children. In fact we have heard people say "it couldn't be that bad, look how you all turned out". But this doesn't negate what went on at home that nobody saw.

We have a functional relationship with my mother to the extent that she is capable of having a functional relationship with other adults in her life. And this is the clause. Your children could grow up as mature adults who are quite capable of having mature relationships but the limiting factor is their mother's ability to have a functional relationship, not theirs.

[P.F.Change]

Not yet anyway. Everyone needs to learn life skills and I'll just be working on that more with my daughters than usual. They'll need a higher level of independence early just to better deal with the situation. It's a practical matter really rather than an attempt to shift roles.

Ok, that's good!

I'm generally good at processing things and feel like this a community service I'm doing. If she wasn't with me, she would be in deep trouble somewhere else. I think I'm coping OK for the most part. Our daughter is bright, strong and happy. That makes it more than worthwhile right now.

I'm so glad your daughter is happy and you feel it's worthwhile to do what you're doing. I'm curious about your desire to save her mother or save the community from dealing with her.  Have you often gravitated toward a rescuer role in your relationships? I wonder if this article might be useful for you (it was a very important concept for me to learn): Codependency and Codependent Relationships

I should have explained the "skewed" comment. I was referring to sampling bias. Essentially every forum that people seek out like this one have a heavy sample bias. People choosing to research this issue in depth and participate have most likely been more significantly impacted than is typical. That's just a statistical reality. It doesn't mean they are misrepresenting themselves.

It's good to consider possible biases when evaluating information, and I think you may be right that some people who post may have had exceptionally negative experiences. However, the very essence of BPD means relationships are volatile--and that applies to all close relationships. There are varying degrees of trauma, resilience, and awareness among people raised by a parent with BPD, but we are all greatly impacted by those dysfunctional behaviors. I think it's informative that we don't see the expected inverse skew from people who had exceptionally positive experiences with a BPD parent (since that cohort would also be more likely to post a review).

One important distinction to make is that this is a highly-moderated self-help community rather than a free-for-all corner of the internet. Part of our mission is to encourage each other toward growth and to seek solutions in place of venting or complaining. We have a library of informative articles and workshops designed to help people improve our relationships. It's not a place where we can get away with a steady stream of negative reviews, so to speak. So, there is not likely to be the same kind of skew you might expect from Amazon or reddit. We are accountable here. The growth model we follow on the board for adult children of parents with BPD is the Survivor to Thriver Manual, and there are many other Lessons to choose from on each of our boards.

I'm really glad you've joined us, summerholiday, and I hope we can continue to help with any additional questions you might have.

[livednlearned]

You are so wise to ask this question when your daughter is 2 and another one is on the way.

I wish I knew then what I learned later.

I also feel that what I learned about how to raise an emotionally resilient child was self-healing in many ways. I hope that this is something that happens for you, summerholiday. It can be a remarkable silver lining.

I'm concerned about how she will cope as a parent beyond the infant/toddler stage.

I can't recommend enough any book you can find on how to emotionally validate your child(ren) and learn what is happening at each developmental stage, both in terms of individuation and the emotional management required to navigate successfully. Ages 0-6 are especially critical.

Power of Validation for Parents is excellent, and so is I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better by the Lundstroms (especially the section on asking validating questions). As a rescuer, you may be tempted to default to parenting strategies that inadvertently invalidate your child's emotional experiences, especially as she tries to make sense of her mother. In a normal family with two normal-range parents, good-enough parenting might be passable. In a family with a BPD parent who seeks validation from the child (reversing the natural parent-child order), status quo parenting can be devastating.

Essentially, you have to do twice the amount of validation with your child(ren) to make up for what's missing from the other parent.

Getting this wrong isn't an option. A lot of our kids have anxiety and depression issues. The chance of developing BPD is higher in families with a BPD parent, too.

It may be a good idea to start play therapy for your daughter early. A child psychologist can help you just as much as your child.

Another book that's good is Bill Eddy's Don't Alienate the Kids, which, while written for people who are co-parenting after a divorce, is essentially about raising emotionally resilient kids when one parent has BPD. He focuses on the non-BPD parent's role in modeling managed emotions, moderate behaviors, and flexible thinking. You'll be introduced to parental alienation which some experts (Dr. Craig Childress) refer to as pathogenic parenting, an extension of personality disorder pathologies that manifest in parenting. For example, your wife may begin to team up against you. "Daddy doesn't love us."

The healthy/emotionally validating response to that statement is, "How did you feel when mommy said that?"

Versus what many of us have done, which is to say, "That's not true! Of course I love you and your mom very much." A seemingly well-intentioned response that only confirms there is a drama triangle and it's one that does not work in your favor.

If you want to get deep into the psychopathology of BPD parenting, James Masterson's Search for the Real Self, while a bit dated, describes the battle to develop a genuine self (and it does appear to be a true touch-and-go battle) when a child has a disordered parent. First he describes how a healthy self develops, then he describes what happens when that development is somehow interrupted.

Masterson describes BPD as a failed or false self that didn't manage the tricky developmental milestones to achieve a real self, and so cannot functionally operate in the world like someone with an intact self might do. This does not bode well for parenting, which requires being able to see the child as a separate and unique person that needs help regulating emotions and learning to venture away from the parent with confidence. If you don't have an authentic, real self, it is all but impossible to help your child develop one.

The second most important skill to model and practice with your daughter is how to have healthy boundaries. This can be a challenge if you yourself struggle with boundaries.

People with BPD may have no boundaries with their children and this can be devastating for young children, something that starts to really show up as they begin to socialize. Your daughter may do relatively ok until she's 7 and especially 8 when things begin to get more socially complex with her peer group. If she doesn't understand healthy boundaries and struggles to regulate her emotions, she may begin to show signs that she's running a deficit that tends to get bigger as her peer group's expectations of social skills gets more sophisticated.

A lot of the skills we embrace here apply to pwBPD (and anyone, really). Your partner may be an insecure parent who struggles with basic stressors and having an infant and toddler at the same time may be all she can deal with. You may feel you have three children to take care of.

I wish I had received professional help from child psychologists earlier than when I did (starting at age 8 for my son).

You will have a profound impact on raising your kids to be emotionally resilient. Just having the courage to ask these questions is impressive. I admire you for having the inclination to look for support from others so early in your parenting.

Your kids are fortunate.

[mart555]

FWIW, my 12yo son was diagnosed with an attachment disorder due to insecure attachment with his BPD mother. That's why his emotions are so messed up. He's doing much better now that I've got sole custody, but I don't know for how long that will stay, his mom isn't happy..

The chapter on developmental trauma from "The body keeps the score" is excellent and shows the impact that childhood has.   It really sucks.

Prevention is key, so is a stable home.  But custody isn't an easy thing to obtain.

[P.F.Change]

You are so wise to ask this question when your daughter is 2 and another one is on the way.
...
You will have a profound impact on raising your kids to be emotionally resilient. Just having the courage to ask these questions is impressive. I admire you for having the inclination to look for support from others so early in your parenting.
...
Your kids are fortunate.

Lots of wonderful advice from livednlearned, as always! And I do want to echo these things she said above. It's very impressive that you're already doing this work now. It will be so helpful for your kids.

[Notwendy]

I agree that it's great that you are thinking about this now. I will share some things that I think helped.

I truly appreciate that you don't allow your children's mother to be alone with the children. As they get older, this remains important. Just as people have stated, the years where the children are small may not be the years where issues arise. I suggest you continue this boundary even if the children are old enough to not require a sitter.

Time away from her with other role models. Spending time with my father's family, I was able to experience other mothers and how they parented. Also time away from the emotions and drama was good.

Professional help. I think counseling is a good thing for the children at some point. They need a place to express their feelings without being invalidated. While you can be supportive of them, you might also find yourself in a triangulating situation with them and their mother. The Karpman triangle is a helpful explanation. Also, you won't have the same perspective they have. People outside our immediate family have not ever seen some of my mother's behaviors- they would not believe us if we did say anything. A romantic relationship is also very different from parent-child.  A professional may be the best person a child can talk to.

[worriedStepmom]

You say that you'd prefer to live and coparent separately but that this isn't possible.  Is the romantic relationship over, or do you want it to be?  Why do you feel that you are trapped in this scenario?

My stepdaughter (SD13) has a mother with uBPD.  It's been challenging, for SD and for us.  We learned much too late that we were focused so much on managing H's ex (walking on eggshells) that we weren't properly protecting SD from the emotional chaos.

As others have noted, the relationship got worse when SD was 6 or 7.  We got primary custody when SD was 11, and after two years of hell, mom is finally settling down and trying harder to parent.  Yet even now, mom constantly sends her pictures of SD as a toddler or a baby.  Those are the years and times mom misses the most.

[zachira]

My mother had BPD and my father enabled her, as did most of the extended family. There were adults who validated my distress and theirs when my mother was abusing me throughout my childhood. I can't tell you how much it helped for me to see the distress on an adult's face when I was being abused by my mother even if it was a total stranger who could do nothing other than show how they felt by the look on their face. Unfortunately, my father never showed emotional distress when I was being abused by my mother though he did do many activities with me without my mother. I think that when your daughter is being mistreated by her mother, it is important to remove her from her mother's presence as soon as you can, and do something with her to reinforce that you love and care for her. Not sure how you can handle having a distressing look on your face when your daughter's mother mistreats her, as people with BPD are very aware of distressed looks and tone of voice which they interpret as abandonment.

[summerholiday]

You will have a profound impact on raising your kids to be emotionally resilient.

This is certainly true.

Perhaps I should have mentioned that I have two older children (13 and 11) that live with me nearly half the time. That's why I have some early awareness of the issues ahead. Their mother is narcissistic. She was callous towards me but is quite devoted to the kids. I've been trying to counterbalance her style of parenting for a long time, which has the non-validating elements you talk about. She's not abusive at all but is insensitive to their individual characters and wants. But they are doing well overall.

The pwBPD here does do some strange things: (i) letting a one-year old make many of the decisions about food, activities, etc. (ii) trying to make her sleep at odd times because of laziness, which involves giving her milk and taking her for drives (iii) sleeping in the same bed as our daughter, who missed the bassinet and cot stages altogether but is now starting to sleep in her own bed.

I have to continually make the call about correcting the mother's behaviors and potentially invoking a negative reaction or letting things slide. It's impossible to fix everything. But I stand ready to do whatever is required to make sure my kids don't get screwed up in some way.

[summerholiday]

FWIW, my 12yo son was diagnosed with an attachment disorder due to insecure attachment with his BPD mother. That's why his emotions are so messed up.

Good luck with trying to get your son back on track. The attachment issue is a big one.

Our daughter has a good relationship with me, partly because I work from home and am well practiced at being a consistent parent. She is also close to a worker at a childcare center. Her relationship with her mother is OK at the moment but will be tested more as our daughter's awareness grows. I suspect she will increasingly register the times when her mother is not really with it and sufficiently responsive.

[summerholiday]

I agree that it's great that you are thinking about this now. I will share some things that I think helped.

Thanks for your suggestions. They are good ones. Am trying to get other guiding influences in there as much as possible. Have organized a trip for the mother and our daughter to stay with her parents. It will be short enough to avoid any major conflicts hopefully.

We are also benefiting from a community service that provides free childcare 4 days a week. Fortunately, the mother has participated in enough counselling and therapy that many others are aware of her issues.

[summerholiday]

As others have noted, the relationship got worse when SD was 6 or 7.  We got primary custody when SD was 11, and after two years of hell, mom is finally settling down and trying harder to parent.

The authorities (Child Protective Services) would not allow a situation where the mother was looking after our daughter without a responsible adult in the same house. So I am kind of trapped. Having another child won't exactly help but I think it's important for our daughter to have another sibling to form a mutually supporting relationship with.

Like you, I may have to go for custody at some stage in the future.

[summerholiday]

Unfortunately, my father never showed emotional distress when I was being abused by my mother though he did do many activities with me without my mother. I think that when your daughter is being mistreated by her mother, it is important to remove her from her mother's presence as soon as you can, and do something with her to reinforce that you love and care for her.

I suspect your father was trying his best. I intervene whenever required (due to sloppy parenting rather than outright abuse), which can quickly trigger a rage episode. I try to stay calm for the benefit of my daughter, hold her and remove her from the scene. She doesn't get distressed this way. Maybe your father was doing something similar.

Showing emotional distress is not something that everyone does. I wouldn't know how to. But I will always choose to stand up for my kids - even if there is fallout.

[zachira]

It warms my heart that you are putting your children first, and know how to help them get to a safer place when their mother is not behaving in the ways that a parent would if the needs of their children were the top priority.

[worriedStepmom]

The authorities (Child Protective Services) would not allow a situation where the mother was looking after our daughter without a responsible adult in the same house. So I am kind of trapped. Having another child won't exactly help but I think it's important for our daughter to have another sibling to form a mutually supporting relationship with.

Like you, I may have to go for custody at some stage in the future.

Do you want to be in this relationship?

If you do, great, we can help you find ways to cope with situations that come up.

If not, though...are you saying you are trapped because CPS won't allow your partner to be alone with the child(ren) and you think it would be wrong to take the kid(s) away from her?

There are agencies (and individuals) who provide supervision for family visits. 

One thing that was really hard for me to learn is that it isn't my job to manage my kids' relationship with their dad or stepparents, or SD13's relationship with her mom or dad.  It's my job to give guidance, love, and protection.  If another parent can't meet minimum expectations, that's on them, not me.

I worry that if you feel trapped now that this can lead to serious resentment, which can spill over into all of your interactions in the house.

[summerholiday]

There are agencies (and individuals) who provide supervision for family visits. 

One thing that was really hard for me to learn is that it isn't my job to manage my kids' relationship with their dad or stepparents, or SD13's relationship with her mom or dad.  It's my job to give guidance, love, and protection.  If another parent can't meet minimum expectations, that's on them, not me.

I worry that if you feel trapped now that this can lead to serious resentment, which can spill over into all of your interactions in the house.

There isn't much choice here. We wouldn't be living together if there wasn't parenting to do. Living together provides a pretty good environment overall for our daughter.

Living separately would be disastrous for the mother-child relationship. Supervised visits isn't really being a parent is it? I don't see that as a good option. And it would be a bit tougher on me having to do nearly all the parenting alone while trying to earn an income.

The frustration from living with someone with BPD is hard to handle at times. Your concerns are fair enough. But it's not all negative. She has ups as well as downs. The joy of parenting is something we have in common. I get enough space to chill out when the stress becomes a bit much.

[Turkish]

uBPD (but diagnosed with depression and anxiety) mom left when D8 was 1 and S11 had just turned 4. We have joint physical and legal custody. We get along.

This past year, D8 has taken to openly saying that she likes me more than her mother. The other day, we were discussing anger. Our daughter had always been the steadfast child. We talked about people who get angry easily. She said "like mommy." I swear I didn't set that up. Hard to know how to respond to that, other than, "so that's how you see her."

It's a balancing act to validate, yet not alienate. Read that book on validation, it's good. It also made me realize how much I was invalidated as a kid by my mother with BPD, anxiety, depression and PTSD. Yes, I'm from that board 

[mart555]

We talked about people who get angry easily. She said "like mommy." I swear I didn't set that up. Hard to know how to respond to that, other than, "so that's how you see her."

It's a balancing act to validate, yet not alienate.

I don't think that saying that mommy gets angry easily would be alienation. It's a fact.  Alienation would be "mommy is mean to you because she gets angry fast".  Well, I think. 

[Notwendy]

This past year, D8 has taken to openly saying that she likes me more than her mother.

I am not sure how to respond to this, because I would have said the same thing.

What I recall from the adults was invalidation. "oh don't be silly, your mother loves you".

It's not that I didn't want attention from my BPD mother, I did- I think all children do, but I gravitated towards my father. My mother also didn't do much of the parenting/mother activities and my father did. I think this helps for a bond with the child. In addition, I felt safer with him.

Children can observe behaviors and try to make sense of them as they get older.

"Don't be silly, your mother loves you" is invalidating and confusing when a parent's behavior isn't consistent with this. But how to validate without alienating the other parent? I think where there is a disordered parent, a professional counselor should take this role to avoid triangulation and to explain that the parent's behavior isn't the child's fault.

[worriedStepmom]

Living separately would be disastrous for the mother-child relationship. Supervised visits isn't really being a parent is it? I don't see that as a good option. And it would be a bit tougher on me having to do nearly all the parenting alone while trying to earn an income.

Being a single parent is definitely tough!

I think you are doing a good job of trying to figure out and balance what your children need, and that you are aware that the situation may change in the future.

We learned the hard way that sometimes it is best for SD to have limited contact with her uBPDmom.

For the last 5 years, SD chose to make me her "mom", even though for part of that her mother had primary custody.  Not by name (god help her if she accidentally referred to me as "mom" in front of her mother), but I was the one she turned to for comfort and love and homework help and to take her shopping.  I did doctor appointments and discipline and explaining the facts of life.  Her mother just couldn't.  Things changed for us when we went to a 90/10 custody model last year, where mom has zero overnights.   Even with this very limited time, they have built a stronger relationship and her mother is able to do some of the "mom" stuff.  I think it's because mom doesn't have to worry about the responsibility and can just have fun with her kid.

Your way seems to be working for you and your toddler right now, and that's great.  I hope that it continues to work.

[mart555]

Living separately would be disastrous for the mother-child relationship. Supervised visits isn't really being a parent is it? I don't see that as a good option. And it would be a bit tougher on me having to do nearly all the parenting alone while trying to earn an income.

My kids are older than yours but not seeing their mom for a year (because she refused supervision) allowed my kids to heal.  What an amazing difference it made. Then they rebuilt slowly via supervised visits.

A bit more than two years ago I thought that 50-50 was what my kids would need. What an awakening that was over the last two years. Kids need a parent that is emotionally stable if they want a chance at developing emotional regulation.  First is co-regulation (they mimic the parent), and then they move onto self-regulation.  Having to relearn co-regulation at 12 years old isn't exactly fun..   I was told "make sure your son lives with you for a long time. Don't send him out in the world to live in an apartment when he's 18.  Make sure he's at least 20, he needs to rewire his brain and that takes time".

Chapter 10 of "The Body Keeps the Score" is worth a read: https://doctorlib.info/travma/body-keeps-score/10.html

[livednlearned]

"Don't be silly, your mother loves you" is invalidating and confusing when a parent's behavior isn't consistent with this. But how to validate without alienating the other parent?

Most of us here are so worried about alienating our child we don't come close to alienation. We're more likely to invalidate than alienate.

We see alienation happening in the other parent and over correct for it.

Validating a child who says "mommy doesn't love me" is pretty straightforward. "Honey, that has to feel painful. Come here and let's snuggle. Did something happen to make you feel that way?" 

I think where there is a disordered parent, a professional counselor should take this role to avoid triangulation and to explain that the parent's behavior isn't the child's fault.

A counselor is there an hour a week, whereas we're there all the time. I found both were necessary, including sessions with me and my son together with a therapist.

My son once said of his dad, "I don't remember what he said, but I remember how I felt."

We have to provide a place for those feelings to be felt and validated otherwise they harden inside like they're a true reflection of who the child is, rather than realizing that mom is putting those feelings there because of her own shortcomings.

[Notwendy]

I agree, the counselor is only there an hour a week. I think it's great that posters here have the knowlege and the drive to do this better. In my parents' time- the early years of their marriage- there were few resources.

With my BPD mother's ability to "pull it together" in public, we learned quickly that other adults in the family would not believe us if we said anything to the contrary and would chastise us for saying it.

Mom is putting those feelings there because of her own shortcomings.

Yes, but we had no idea. One example is that as a teen, she told me I was the cause of her issues with my father and the cause of her behavior. I actually believed that when I left home for college, my parents would be happy and get along.

It wasn't until several years later that a sibling told me that their issues still continued after I left home.

I think it's wonderful you are addressing this with the children now.

[Cat Familiar]

To answer your original question at the beginning of your thread, I was very close to my BPD mom until teenage years. When I began to individuate, which was probably years later than I would have, had she been emotionally healthy, she saw it as a threat.

I remember her saying, “You don’t like that” about some inconsequential issue, and me arguing back, “Yes I do.” I think it was about a food preference. Finally she admitted, “I guess that was me who doesn’t like it.” This happened repeatedly and now I see it as a sign that she wasn’t accepting that I was a separate person with my own opinions, feelings, and preferences.

When I began counseling after divorcing my first BPD husband, the therapist said, “We’re going to build you a self.” It was a surprising concept to think I had been navigating adulthood for some time without really knowing what I wanted, instead I thought my job was to be a people pleaser.

It’s great that you are aware of the deficits that a BPD mother has and are actively seeking how to mitigate the parenting deficiencies.

[zachira]

Counseling/therapy may only be for an hour a week, and it can give the child the confidence to seek out other people who validate their feelings.

[P.F.Change]

The mother has quite a severe case of BPD and is only allowed to look after our child because I'm there as well. I would actually prefer to live (coparent) separately but that's not possible.

She is extremely messy and lazy. She is also prone to fits of rage over delusional stuff, such as imagining that I'm trying to set up her up with other women. I cope with her moodiness by disengaging. I have to hire cleaners. I do pretty much all the adult things, like earning an income, grocery shopping and cooking.I try to avoid arguing, though she sometimes goes on rants without me doing anything.

Living separately would be disastrous for the mother-child relationship. Supervised visits isn't really being a parent is it? I don't see that as a good option. And it would be a bit tougher on me having to do nearly all the parenting alone while trying to earn an income.

I'm having a little trouble reconciling these two posts. Maybe you can help me understand.

On the one hand, your co-parent can only look after your child because someone is supervising (right now, that's you), and on the other hand, you feel that if she had supervised visits, it would mean she's not really being a parent.

On the one hand, you're doing nearly all the adult things alone while you're living together, and on the other hand, you don't want to live apart because you'd have to do all the parenting alone.

We are here to support you whatever your choice may be. We're also here to help you look at your own thinking. To me, it seems like time between your daughters and their mother has to be supervised no matter what, and her status as a parent is the same whether you're doing the supervising or someone else is. If you're already doing all the adulting on your own, not only for you and your children but for their mother, what would be so different about doing all the adulting on your own but for fewer people?

When my exh moved out, I was so anxious about being on my own. I thought, "Oh, no, who will fix things when they break in the house?" And then instantly, I realized: I will. It's always been me taking care of everything that breaks. He never tried to fix or maintain even one thing in all the years we lived together. So, I get it--there can be a fear of being alone. But sometimes it keeps us from seeing how alone we already are. You're worried about not being able to take a break, but if you're having to supervise her when you're together, are you really getting a break now? Babysitters and relatives help parents who are living together and parents who are living apart. You would have options either way. What kind of family support do you have?

I am also curious about what you mean about the mother-child relationship being disastrous if you were to live separately. Frequently, especially with a BPD mother, the mother-child relationship is disastrous when living together. It's also true that many parents don't live with their children all the time--including me--and the kids are actually all right. If you needed to live apart from their mother, your children would be ok.

[Notwendy]

If she is severely BPD, she, herself, may not be able to live alone. Is this an unspoken concern?

[summerholiday]

Thanks people for sharing your experiences. The message I'm getting that having a child rely on a BPD parent for emotional regulation and development is generally a bad idea. Hence, there is a need to limit time together.

Am doing this already to an extent with childcare services and my own close involvement as a father. Will keep working at it. Your feedback is appreciated.

[summerholiday]

I found this resource that explores the custody issue: https://timtab.com/how-to-co-parent-with-bpd-ex/

The article is good in terms of details for what can be included in parenting plans and what sort of custody schedules are applicable. For BPD co-parents, it is recommended that visitation times be limited and fairly short. Parenting plans should contain extra provisions to do with unwanted behavior.

Am not at the point of physically separating but it's always an option. The mwBPD just informed that she received 3 traffic infringement notices in the last week that she can't pay. I don't want to help but not doing so would cause more trouble for everyone in the long run.

[summerholiday]

If she is severely BPD, she, herself, may not be able to live alone. Is this an unspoken concern?

Yes it is. If she was more functional, I would being trying harder to have her live independently. She is capable in many areas (and has multiple degrees) but is just too slovenly to maintain a home properly. She spends most of her time on "spiritual stuff" while looking down on "practical" people who think an adult should tidy up after themselves.

[Notwendy]

My BPD mother is also very intelligent, but that doesn't seem to translate into daily tasks and as a result she is low functioning. But the difference between what she can't do and what she can but won't do is hard to discern. Either way, there isn't much incentive to do something she doesn't want to do if someone does it for her and she has not had to do it.

I think we all would rather do something more fun than housework, but know it's something we need to be responsible for doing. Kids would say the same thing- they would rather play than pick up their toys, but part of teaching them to be adults is to teach them to take on responsibilities. Living in the same home, you don't want to live in a mess, so you clean it up. But then, you don't know what she could do if people didn't do it for her.

You have asked about the effect on children as they get older- children also become more capable of doing household tasks and while I think it's important for children to help at home, I think my BPD mother relates to us more as her servants than her adult children.

[Notwendy]

I think the "looking down" on practical tasks is a bit of smokescreen for their not doing it and maintaining self image. With my mother it's also narcisism. She's "above" doing these tasks and so they go to "lesser" people. When I am around her she enlists me to do menial things for her. Somehow it meets an emotional need for her to be "waited on".

You are not clear about the direction you want your relationship to go, but if you are concerned that your partner can not live on her own without assistance and will need to have help, I hope you are considering this in your financial planning- for when you retire or if you choose to not live with her.

[PeteWitsend]

I'm concerned about the teenage years; I'm worried uBPDxw will take the approach of being FAR too lenient with discipline during those times, in order to ensure our child doesn't choose to live with me more. 

For example, decide that she'll allow our child to stay out later than I would, (or have no curfew) to ensure that they'd prefer to live with her.

I can see her making this a race to the bottom

[PeteWitsend]

I think the "looking down" on practical tasks is a bit of smokescreen for their not doing it and maintaining self image. With my mother it's also narcisism. She's "above" doing these tasks and so they go to "lesser" people. When I am around her she enlists me to do menial things for her. Somehow it meets an emotional need for her to be "waited on".

You are not clear about the direction you want your relationship to go, but if you are concerned that your partner can not live on her own without assistance and will need to have help, I hope you are considering this in your financial planning- for when you retire or if you choose to not live with her.

I saw this a lot with my XW.  

I know from what she claimed and I observed she grew up poor and got picked on for it as a child (and this was in an already poor country); I assumed some of her hostility and aversion to cleaning, cooking,  child care, etc. was due to deep seeded insecurity from her.  

She would insist she was a professional and should be working, but from the glimpses I caught of her work habits, seemed to be equally lazy and work-avoidant in the office.  

I don't know if pwBPD are just lazy or so emotionally immature they can't handle the discipline required to work.

[Cat Familiar]

They’re experts at feigned helplessness and master manipulators at getting others to do things for them. Perhaps unmotivated rather than lazy.

[zachira]

I think splitting explains a lot of the helplessness of people with BPD and NPD. My sister with NPD is competent at doing budgets and being a treasurer for an organization yet sends financial info to the tax accountant every year that is pure mumbo jumbo. She seems to have a need to make me wrong. I am guessing that for people with BPD and NPD that when they are in their helplessness state that they become incompetent at things that they are actually quite competent at like the incredible public persona they can present which often makes close family members' accounts of their unstable personality seem to be unbelievable by those who only know them in situations in which they perform quite well.

[summerholiday]

Reassuring to hear that the BPD co-parent here is not the only one who is lazy and acts like royalty.

Haven't yet worked out why she is low functioning in some areas and not others.

She seems emotionally unable to apply her mind to tasks she's not interested in (e.g. cooking, cleaning, grocery shopping). She either doesn't do those jobs, or does them but extremely quickly and poorly.

She seems unable to just think, "Here is a task that needs doing and, if I'm doing it, I might as well take my time and do it well". And yet she has ambitions of writing novels and making lots of money. A bit hard to do that without a work ethic.

It's also more than just faking incompetence. She will let things get completely run down and shambolic if left alone.

[PeteWitsend]

If some of my uBPDxw's comments are true, at least some of her laziness & helplessness was calculated.

she wasn't always the most reliable narrator, though... but it would surprise me when I would see evidence that she took steps to create conflict and manipulate others (or try to... most people weren't fooled.)

though when she would dysregulate, pretty much everything would get dropped... some days she'd just skip going into work, or sit there and text bomb or send so many angry email rants, I figured there was no way she was working.

I think, in hindsight, it was both: sometimes she would intentionally feign helplessness, or privilege or whatever argument suited her at that moment to get out of work, cleaning, or other responsibilities; other times she'd be so  dysregulated mentally, that she was truly helpless and unable to focus on anything.

[zachira]

I agree it can be both. Sometimes the helplessness is calculated and sometimes the person with BPD is so overwhelmed, they indeed cannot function.

[livednlearned]

Haven't yet worked out why she is low functioning in some areas and not others.

In Shari Manning's book Loving Someone with BPD she refers to this tendency as active-passivity.

She seems emotionally unable to apply her mind to tasks she's not interested in (e.g. cooking, cleaning, grocery shopping). She either doesn't do those jobs, or does them but extremely quickly and poorly.

She sounds like a lot of teens I know 

What's going on when she does cook, clean, grocery shop? Under what conditions does she contribute to the household?

[summerholiday]

In Shari Manning's book Loving Someone with BPD she refers to this tendency as active-passivity.

She sounds like a lot of teens I know 

What's going on when she does cook, clean, grocery shop? Under what conditions does she contribute to the household?

"Active-passivity" is totally right. For example, if she has a problem with her computer, she'll take into a technician instead of spending a little bit of time trying to fix it herself.

Apart from child-minding, examples of her contributing to the household are few and far between. She does some things if I ask her. If I found the magic formula for getting her to contribute, I would bottle it. No carrot nor stick approach seems to work.

[summerholiday]

If some of my uBPDxw's comments are true, at least some of her laziness & helplessness was calculated.

she wasn't always the most reliable narrator, though... but it would surprise me when I would see evidence that she took steps to create conflict and manipulate others (or try to... most people weren't fooled.)

though when she would dysregulate, pretty much everything would get dropped... some days she'd just skip going into work, or sit there and text bomb or send so many angry email rants, I figured there was no way she was working.

I think, in hindsight, it was both: sometimes she would intentionally feign helplessness, or privilege or whatever argument suited her at that moment to get out of work, cleaning, or other responsibilities; other times she'd be so  dysregulated mentally, that she was truly helpless and unable to focus on anything.

She sounds very much like the one I'm dealing with. I've received thousands of ranting emails and text messages despite the fact that I never respond to any of them.

She also enters into states of extreme emotional dysregulation at times, where the dominant emotion is rage.

[Notwendy]

She seems emotionally unable to apply her mind to tasks she's not interested in (e.g. cooking, cleaning, grocery shopping). She either doesn't do those jobs, or does them but extremely quickly and poorly.

This is not only with BPD. Children would rather play than do chores. Adults are able to understand that if we want a clean house, we need to do the chores, if we want a salary- we need to go to work, if we want good grades and a job one day, we need to do homework. We are able to emotionally postpone instant gratification for goal we want to achieve.

How many of us would spend our time cleaning dishes if there was someone else to do them for us? How many of us would do homework if we were just given an A anyway? How many of us would get up early some mornings to go to work if someone gave us money anyway?

The problem with not doing something is that, one doesn't become competent at it. In my situation, my father felt empathy for my mother's distress and arranged it so that she didn't have to do much of anything. Someone else did it. The result is that these tasks are difficult for her- not because of a basic lack of ability but because she doesn't do them and so they become difficult for her. The feigned helplessness is due to a combination of some insecurity ( lack of practice and competence), not wanting to do a task, and some emotional need to have people do for her. She also found a way to get things done for her- emotionally abuse her family members into doing things for her or be manipulative.

But this constant doing for her and caretaking for her may not really be good for her in the long run. If you are taking care of these things for her, how will she ever get the incentive to learn? I don't mean something cruel like suddenly leaving her on her own, but expecting her to learn to do something.

[summerholiday]

She seems emotionally unable to apply her mind to tasks she's not interested in (e.g. cooking, cleaning, grocery shopping). She either doesn't do those jobs, or does them but extremely quickly and poorly.

This is not only with BPD. Children would rather play than do chores. Adults are able to understand that if we want a clean house, we need to do the chores, if we want a salary- we need to go to work, if we want good grades and a job one day, we need to do homework. We are able to emotionally postpone instant gratification for goal we want to achieve.

How many of us would spend our time cleaning dishes if there was someone else to do them for us? How many of us would do homework if we were just given an A anyway? How many of us would get up early some mornings to go to work if someone gave us money anyway?

The problem with not doing something is that, one doesn't become competent at it. In my situation, my father felt empathy for my mother's distress and arranged it so that she didn't have to do much of anything. Someone else did it. The result is that these tasks are difficult for her- not because of a basic lack of ability but because she doesn't do them and so they become difficult for her. The feigned helplessness is due to a combination of some insecurity ( lack of practice and competence), not wanting to do a task, and some emotional need to have people do for her. She also found a way to get things done for her- emotionally abuse her family members into doing things for her or be manipulative.

But this constant doing for her and caretaking for her may not really be good for her in the long run. If you are taking care of these things for her, how will she ever get the incentive to learn? I don't mean something cruel like suddenly leaving her on her own, but expecting her to learn to do something.

Something I've learned from this experience is that it is possible for someone with a mental illness to force reasonable people to do things for them. She bears enormous costs from not doing things, including living in a chaotic environment, being resented by all those around her and wasting money (e.g. missed flights, car repairs, buying things that she already has somewhere).

Normally, the choice is to help or have your or your children bearing costs as well. I get your point about enabling but there is only so much one can do. Your father may have been more frustrated than he let on.

[Oceanfish]

My mother didn't receive a diagnosis of BPD, however she died 32 years ago and I don't think it was understood at that time. She was on a rollercoaster of drugs, including powerful sedatives. She was explosive and quite horrible to live with. I began seeing a therapist when I was in high school to try to learn strategies for dealing with her.
I had to move out of my home before I graduated from high school because I just couldn't take the abuse. She stalked me and was clearly distressed from my departure. It seemed she felt abandoned prior to my moving out for the simple reason that I had grown up. I continued to try to have a relationship with her, but it was impossible most of the time. I learned, through therapy, to set clear boundaries and stick to them.
When I had my second child, she hung up on me when I called to let her know my daughter was born. The long and the short of that scenario is that estranged herself for a year, telling everyone that I wouldn't let her see her grandchildren. The family, of course, thought I was awful and I ultimately lost my inheritence. I asked her to please tell them the truth before she died, but she said, "I can't".
I don't think there was a time while she was alive that I wasn't seeing a therapist to try to understand what was happening and learning to protect my mental health. Later in life, I found a therapist who did EMDR for PTSD and that was very helpful, as well.
Your children will need support throughout their lives. I strongly recommend that you make sure their mental health is tended to and that they grow up, learning to identify the impact their mother's behavior is having on them and to develop strategies for surviving their environment. They will need to feel comfortable asking for what they need and understand how to access mental health care. You will need regular therapy as well in order to learn to set boundaries and protect the children. That, unfortunately, is going to fall squarely on your shoulders.
That baby girl I mentioned is now an adult in her 30s and has been diagnosed with BPD. Fortunately, I had already learned to set boundaries and protect myself.

[Notwendy]

Your father may have been more frustrated than he let on.

He was frustrated and we knew it. I understand his situation now,  but I didn't fully understand it then. I know now he did the best he could with a tough situation. But the frustration was apparent.

When it comes to parenting, a child only has their parents as examples. He clearly was the more stable parent and the most effective/involved one but that doesn't mean he didn't have an impact on us either.

The drama triangle played out with us in different ways. By early adolescence, in ways, I was "older" than my mother. But that doesn't mean mature- a teen is a teen, but a teen can be more emotionally stable than a severely BPD mother. She enlisted me as her emotional caretaker. This also helped my father. But in addition, she was verbally and emotionally abusive.

We were financially stretched due to her needs and while I didn't understand the whole of it at the time, she got whatever she wanted. My father went into debt- and the strain on him was obvious. If I dared to ask him for anything- he would snap at me in frustration. Since clearly BPD mother wasn't going to change, we had to acommodate. So, yes, he may have enabled her out of necessity, but we had to compensate for it and the double standards in the family were clear.

We also weren't unaware of their arguments.

As much as you believe you can mediate the impact of a BPD mother on children, I don't think you can control all of it. She's going to have her own relationship with them as they get older and  this is between them and her. I agree with Oceanfish that counseling for them, and for you is a gift for them.

[zachira]

My father was also frustrated with my BPD mother. I did not realize his level of frustration until one day when I was a teenager my father talked to me about how he had tried to get mental health help for my mother and she refused. He asked me not to upset her anymore. This was a terrible move on his part, as I was expected to forego my need to mature into an adult, and enable mom's meltdowns and dysregulated emotions. Whatever you do, let your children know they come first, and show you have empathy for what they are experiencing with their mother. This is why therapy is a good idea. It gives the children a safe place to help in their development into separate adults, who know how to regulate their own emotions in healthy ways, and do not take on the dysregulated states of their mother as something that is their fault.

[summerholiday]

Whatever you do, let your children know they come first, and show you have empathy for what they are experiencing with their mother.

That's what I'm planning to do.

I appreciate people sharing their experiences about the impacts of BPD parents on children and the need for therapy. The situation I'm in is only manageable because I'm a grown adult, I can see what's happening, and I'm more than willing to stand up for myself and the kids. Still, even in these circumstances, it's psychologically tough.

I can see how destructive her condition would be if her negative energy were directed at someone more vulnerable, including children and young adults. You couldn't possibly expect a young person, or even most people who would instinctively try to be empathetic, to be able to handle it without help.

[MeandThee29]

Kids need a parent that is emotionally stable if they want a chance at developing emotional regulation.  First is co-regulation (they mimic the parent), and then they move onto self-regulation.  Having to relearn co-regulation at 12 years old isn't exactly fun..   I was told "make sure your son lives with you for a long time. Don't send him out in the world to live in an apartment when he's 18.  Make sure he's at least 20, he needs to rewire his brain and that takes time".

Chapter 10 of "The Body Keeps the Score" is worth a read: https://doctorlib.info/travma/body-keeps-score/10.html

I was told that too by my therapist. My ex left shortly after the youngest graduated from high school. Even with them being commuter college students living at home, the therapist kept telling me that my stability and being thoughtfully open with how I was navigating the financial and emotional complexities of my their father's departure would rub off on them and subtly guide them into adult behaviors. Of course there's a lot I never shared, but being logical and positive in my approach would help them ground themselves versus just sending them off to work through young adulthood without seeing their remaining parent every day. The high conflict divorce took a physical toll on me, and I benefited from having them around to help.

I can't count how many people have told me that they are wiser than their years. The younger one in particular has overcome a great deal and has learned to really stick up for themselves.

[Notwendy]

I can see how destructive her condition would be if her negative energy were directed at someone more vulnerable, including children and young adults. You couldn't possibly expect a young person, or even most people who would instinctively try to be empathetic, to be able to handle it without help.

Exactly, young children are developmentally at a disadvantage when dealing with a dysfunctional adult who tends to blame and project. I think the teen years are also vulnerable as teens- even well behaved ones- will push boundaries when trying to establish their own sense of self. They may not have a strong sense of self yet but know they are "not mom" and "not dad". If the parent themselves has poor boundaries, or poor emotional regulation, they are not equiped well for parenting a teen who is trying to asser their own boundaries.

I was aware of the importance of this sense of self and boundaries in my own children during the teen years. It's a bit of a balancing act to allow for their own autonomy while also maintaining standards of behavior. Too much or too little isn't good. It was during these years that my BPD mother treated me more as a confidant some time, or became furious when I "talked back" to her. The rule "don't upset mother" is pretty tough for a teen because teens are not their parents and want to assert themselves. There were times my own teens upset me, and I had to have my own emotional regulation skills to navigate this- was this misbehavior or teen behavior? For example " take me to the mall but I don't want my friends to see me with you" is aggravating but normal teen behavior. But if the teen is so fearful and is also walking on eggshells- they are too afraid to assert themselves. I became more of a people pleaser.

It was actually in the teen years that I felt the need to have stronger boundaries between my BPD mother and my own children. Although I didn't leave them alone with her unsupervised when they were little, they were too young to pick up on her dysfunction during our visits. It was when they were young teens that my mother would attempt to form a relationship with them one on one. Even if I was there, they could go in the other room to talk. You are correct that they were instinctively empathetic and this made them vulnerable to "helping their grandmother", and she was beginning to treat them as emotional caretakers too.

[livednlearned]

I can see how destructive her condition would be if her negative energy were directed at someone more vulnerable, including children and young adults. You couldn't possibly expect a young person, or even most people who would instinctively try to be empathetic, to be able to handle it without help.

Her pathology and your relationship dynamics will imprint on the kids. Things will show up in different ways depending (probably) on birth order and temperament. At different developmental stages, they'll try to get their kid need mets using different strategies they see modeled by mom and by you.

My ex was fond of "mom loves the dog more than me" which became "mom loves the dog more than us."

My son started to say it. "You love the dog more than me."

 

I didn't find individual therapy helped much when it came to skilled parenting. You may find that books and this board are more helpful although individual therapy can be excellent at helping you see that there is a problem. Having a high threshold for dysfunction can make us not see clearly what is/isn't healthy.

[AKC]

MY BPD wife was a fine mother when kids were 0-5. Things got worse from 5-10, and were disastrous 10-16. She simply did not have the skills to manage the kids' needs. The lesson I learned was that I had to essentially be a fully engaged single parent for the sake of my kid's sanity. Didn't realize it was needed for the older one, and that child has suffered. Did it for the younger one and it probably saved that child. The BPD mother needs intensive help, otherwise you will need to put your kids' mental health above hers for their sake.

[Notwendy]

Looking back at my own experience, I would agree with you, although my BPD mother didn't have a lot of skills to manage young children either. However, teens still need parents and it's a challenge when the parent doesn't have the emotional skills to manage the teen age years.

I think the "error" you made with your older one would be easy to make. I think there's a tendency to parentify children when they get older and are more able to take care of ourselves. We were enlisted as emotional caretakers for BPDmom. We were very independent teens, but emotionally, we needed a parent.

I had to essentially be a fully engaged single parent for the sake of my kid's sanity.

Absolutely- children need parents at all ages. Maybe not in the same way at all ages, but even as adults we want a relationship with our parents.