Update on divorce, etc.

[stolencrumbs]

It's been a while since I've posted anything. Nothing major is happening, but maybe it's helpful to have some of this out there so others can see one way things might go after filing for divorce.

It's been eight months since I filed for divorce and four months since I got an order of protection against my wife. It took her two months after filing to hire an attorney, and then another month for her to respond to the initial complaint. It then took another three months for her to respond to the first set of interrogatories and give me her list of interrogatories/requests for documents. The rules of civil procedure here call for no more than 30 questions in the first set of interrogatories. She and her lawyer asked 99. It took me about a month and a half to answer them and collect the over 2100 pages of documents. Those were delivered to her lawyer a few weeks ago. At this point my lawyer is trying to schedule mediation, but that has not happened yet. Hopefully it does soon. It's kind of amazing to me how slow this process is. I don't even know what we're fighting over in terms of a settlement because we haven't gotten to any discussions about that. We don't have kids and we don't have complicated finances at all. This shouldn't be that challenging. But apparently it is, and it is frustrating for this all to move at a glacial pace. But the last time I spoke to her about any of this, she said her main directive to her lawyer was to slow this down, and apparently he is doing that. 

After about a month of not hearing from my w at all after I was granted the order of protection, she started routinely violating it in various ways. She has set up a number of anonymous email accounts that she uses to send cryptic messages. She has emailed me from her own account a few times. She has sent anonymous texts. And she definitely stalks me. I have seen her in her car numerous times on campus and around town at places she knows I am likely to be. A couple of weeks ago, I saw her three days in a row in places she has no reason to be except that she knows I am there. I'm suspicious that she has put a tracker on my truck, but I can't find it for the life of me. I went and visited some people in my hometown a while ago and she sent a cryptic email that night that referenced having safe travels. The last time I saw her in town, I just drove around for a while. And there she was. I would go park somewhere, and she'd drive by. I'd drive down random streets, and she'd pass me. I came back to campus, and she drove by. This went on for about an hour and a half. My favorite part of this one is that she then sent me an email a few days later telling me to stop following her. Um, yeah, sure thing. That email also contained one of her old favorite threats--to reveal all of my "secrets," mainly about abuse I experienced as a child. That she attempts to weaponize that still takes me back a bit.

I have not pressed for any legal consequences for the violations. I have notified my lawyer, and he has notified hers on at least a couple of occasions, but I have not sought a hearing. We are still currently under a temporary order. My main reason for not doing so is that I don't want to escalate things before we even get to mediation. I don't see that going well as it is, but I especially don't see it going well if I escalate things legally.

Mainly, I am just ready to start seeing an end to this process. I've been in weekly therapy for about six months, and that's been very helpful. It is amazing how different everything looks when I'm not in the middle of a crisis all the time. Just having some breathing room has been amazing, and being able to take that space and process and work through things has been life-changing. It's frustrating to kind of see what the other side of all of this can look like, but then be mired in the divorce process for some indefinite period of time. I suppose all I can do is play my part in trying to move this along, and then wait for her to do hers.

So that's where things are now.

[Cat Familiar]

Nice to hear from you, stolencrumbs. You sound like you’re in a very healthy mind space, despite the circumstances.

How interesting that your wife has shown herself to be so resourceful when the opportunity has presented itself.

[GaGrl]

What resources are in your area to help you locate a tracker on your car? It does sound as if there is one somewhere.

[worriedStepmom]

Is mediation required in your jurisdiction?

Do you think mediation will work?  Or is she just going to delay and make wild demands that make no sense?

If mediation is unlikely to work, then I'd start filing for legal consequences for the violations of the protective order.   She's feeling really entitled now, because she is setting the pace for the divorce and she is able to stalk you with no consequences.  If she gets mad and escalates, she either ends up with serious legal consequences or the mediation ends really early and you go in front of a judge (where you'd probably end up anyway).

[GaGrl]

You can give mediation one chance, to show court that you attempted it. At the end (or during!) what could be a two or three hour session, if you have not agreed on anything, you can say, "This is not productive. My lawyer will handle further discussions. The non-contact order remains in place and will be enforced. Good day."

Also, you do not have to be in the same room with her during mediation. Make sure your lawyer and mediator know you need separate rooms, with the mediator going back and forth between rooms. This is not uncommon.

Don't expect mediation to succeed.

[I Am Redeemed]

Is it possible she's tracking your phone and not your vehicle?

I'm sure you're documenting all the emails and texts. You might try to find some way to document that she's deliberately following you. From her message to you, it sounds like she may be doing this but trying to make it appear that you are the stalker, not her.

You might think about documenting your own travels and then any correlating communication you receive from her, such as the message she sent when you visited your friends. It demonstrates a pattern of behavior.

[GaGrl]

I agree with Cat.

[babyducks]

hello stolencrumbs,

appreciate the update.   I think it is always helpful to hear from those coming out the other side of their experience.

But the last time I spoke to her about any of this, she said her main directive to her lawyer was to slow this down, and apparently he is doing that. 

Is that what you want?   to slow this down?   what exactly are the benefits to you to keep this at a slow pace?

After about a month of not hearing from my w at all after I was granted the order of protection, she started routinely violating it in various ways.

having read a bunch of your posts I do really understand that you prefer the carrot to the stick.    I've also observed that you report better results when you have more of a balance of the carrot and the stick.

I have not pressed for any legal consequences for the violations. I have notified my lawyer, and he has notified hers on at least a couple of occasions, but I have not sought a hearing. We are still currently under a temporary order. My main reason for not doing so is that I don't want to escalate things before we even get to mediation. I don't see that going well as it is, but I especially don't see it going well if I escalate things legally.

I suppose all I can do is play my part in trying to move this along, and then wait for her to do hers.

hmmmmm.    you don't have high expectations for mediation.   but aren't willing to burn that bridge completely.   it seems to me that any threat that endangers your future requires push back.   perhaps you can uncouple these two, the mediation and when she crosses into unacceptable behavior.    your wife thrives on negative attention and negative energy.   they allow her to feed her own self generating narrative of 'how things are'.   i.e. always horrible.   they allow her to continue her delusions.   is it possible to push back against her by introducing a dose of shame into her narrative.    I understand that's not a palatable concept.    and normally something to be avoided.   still, it seems that being  passive allows her to set the pace and direct the narrative.     which doesn't seem to be working for you.   

I am glad to read you are in therapy and are feeling free of the constant crisis.  that's a huge step and very hard fought.   I would encourage you to continue to advocate for your rights and your comfort.      Standing up for what you want, simply because you want it, is okay to do.   

wishing you the best
'ducks

[stolencrumbs]

Thanks for the replies.

Cat: Yes, I agree about her resourcefulness. I never wanted to see the suicide threats as being mainly a manipulation tool, and I guess I still don't see them as completely being that, and I still worry that she might follow through with that, but eight months after the thing she always told me would absolutely end her life happened, it hasn't.

Re: the tracker: I don't *think* it is my phone. I was suspicious of that at one point. I have done a factory reset on my phone and set it up through a different google account. We're not on the same phone plan, and I haven't had location services on in years. She's never had physical access to the phone I have now, and I can't figure out how she could be using it to track me. I think a tracker on my truck is more likely, but again, I can't find one. She's never had access to the inside of the truck and I've searched exhaustively on the exterior and undercarriage. It's now been a couple of weeks since there's been anything that makes me think she's following me, which all coincided with her email to me asking me to stop following her. I do think she's trying to do some CYA here, and my guess is that if there was a tracker on my truck, she took it off after this. But all of that is just a guess. The possibility of tracking does bother me, but what bothers me more is the stalker-aspect of it where she not only follows me, but seems to want me to know that she is doing that.

I am documenting everything I can document. I do have one video of her just sitting in her parked car across the street from the brewery I was at. I thought it looked like her car. I asked a friend to drive by and check the license plate. It was her. Then I got video of it. Otherwise, I've made note of all of these things and notified my attorney every time. She's also done some other weird things that seem like they might be part of some larger plan she has that I don't know about. For example, on Valentine's Day, she signed up for an e-card service with my email address and then sent herself cards that looked like they were being sent by me. I got a notification that the card was delivered, canceled the account, and sent screenshots and such to my attorney. Weird.  And that's just what I know about. So who knows what else she's signed me up for that I don't know about.

Stepmom: Yes, mediation is required where I am. I don't expect it to go well. The mediator we are using has only not settled one case in the last five years, so that's promising. But as I tell my lawyer, the mediator has never dealt with my wife. So we'll see. I am not optimistic. I do feel like making it to mediation without any more legal action is the best bet, though. And my lawyer thinks having that on the table as a possibility might be leverage for getting her to settle. If mediation goes nowhere, I will rethink what I do about her violating the order of protection.

Ducks: No, the slow pace is not what I want and it doesn't benefit me at all. I just don't know what I can do to speed it up. By all accounts, she hired a good lawyer with a good reputation. He knows how long he can wait to respond to things before the court is going to care.

I agree that the passivity isn't really working. She has pretty clearly been testing the boundary of the protective order. It scared her at first and she really didn't violate it. Then she started anonymous emails, and nothing happened. Then anonymous texts and nothing happened. Then emails from her account and nothing happened. Then stalking and nothing happened. I do see that.

I guess right now I feel like what I'm dealing with is much, much better than what I was dealing with a few months ago before the protective order, and I can deal with that for a bit longer to try to make it to mediation without escalating anything. If mediation goes well, great. If not, I don't think she's going to stop violating the order, and will likely get bolder in what she does, and I will take additional legal action then. Of course, it might get worse before then, in which case I may reconsider this tact. But that's where I am now. I just really want this to be done, and I am holding out some sliver of hope that we can come to a settlement in mediation. I really don't even know what we are fighting over. I asked for three things from the house, none of which have any real value. I am willing to divide the assets we have heavily in her favor. I am not willing to pay alimony in futuro, which is what I suspect she wants, but according to my L, no judge is going to give her that and her L surely knows that. So my guess is that the fight will be about alimony--both amount and duration. But that really does seem like something that we ought to be able to come to some agreement about without dragging this into court to get a ruling that is very likely going to be worse for her than what I would agree to.

Anyway, I do get the point about the ineffectiveness of my passivity. I do think my passivity is time-limited at this point. I have done my part to move this forward and the ball is currently in her court. I want to see what she does with it and then proceed accordingly.

[I Am Redeemed]

My take on mediation is that it won't matter how reasonable you are, or how fair. If her goal is to postpone the finalization of the divorce for as long as possible, she will not agree to anything that speeds it up, even if it benefits her.

I think she views the divorce as win/lose. She didn't want it, you did. If you get the divorce over and done with, you "win". She will not cooperate with anything that gives you that "win".

[stolencrumbs]

My take on mediation is that it won't matter how reasonable you are, or how fair. If her goal is to postpone the finalization of the divorce for as long as possible, she will not agree to anything that speeds it up, even if it benefits her.

I think she views the divorce as win/lose. She didn't want it, you did. If you get the divorce over and done with, you "win". She will not cooperate with anything that gives you that "win".

I think that's probably right, unfortunately. One of the last things she told me before I got the order of protection was that "there can be reconciliation or there can be justice--your choice." And I'm pretty sure her idea of justice looks more like vengeance.

[formflier]

SC,

Thanks for posting your experiences.

You should be able to sort out the tracking fairly quickly.

See if you have an Enterprise rental car close by.  They will come pick you up.  Try a couple days in a different car and see if her pattern changes.

Then try a couple of days using uber/lyft.

If that doesn't change the pattern then I'm pretty sure it's your phone...fitbit or something else that you are not thinking about.

I do think that it is wise for you to be deliberate about figuring out the tracking.  Keep lots of detailed notes.

I also think it is a mistake for you to not press for consequences on the order, although at this point I would think it wise to figure out tracking and then press for consequences.

When you press for consequences you will probably want to amend the order to specifically handle following you around, "spying" on you and expand the distance she must keep from you.

Hang in there SC,

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

She has pretty clearly been testing the boundary of the protective order. It scared her at first and she really didn't violate it. Then she started anonymous emails, and nothing happened. Then anonymous texts and nothing happened. Then emails from her account and nothing happened. Then stalking and nothing happened. I do see that.

My Ex "stalked" me for about 3 years after we split up and she ended the relationship.    for about a year I saw her at least several times a week.   There was a community garden in my city neighborhood, right across the street from my condo.   My EX got involved in that garden.   Of all the gardens in the world.   She was often across the street from my front door.    At that time I had several roles that required me to often be at public events representing my organization.    Every public event she was there.    You get the idea.

what I found creepy about it, even frightening about it, was how unpredictable and impulsive it was.   and how detached from reality it was.    like the valentines day cards that came from you... supposedly.    I spent a lot of time saying to myself 'what the   are you thinking here?'  'what's the point of all this?'.   there were no boundaries around her behavior, no well defined stopping points.    and the reality testing was so poor.    My former psychologist said about a million times throughout this period "OMG, who does this?"

my Ex was generating her own reality.  I guess it all made sense in her head.   all these convoluted gymnastics of who was where and who sat next to who proved something to her.    my best guess now, looking back at it, she was forcing me to "see" her.    for someone who had a very weak sense of self, I think she often felt invisible if she wasn't engaged with people in some non healthy way.

I was very fortunate that my Ex never crossed the line and acted out.    But I also can't say I felt safe through much of this.    the possibility was always there and felt very real.    my P and I joked about what we would do if she showed up at my appointment and banged on the door demanding entry.   but we really weren't joking.   if you know what I mean.

there is a part of me that wishes that there were some consequences for my Ex's stalking behavior.    and I suppose the consequence was she made both of us miserable for years.   untangling our finances and housing was simple compared to most.  but her unwillingness to let go, to keep me in her life by frequenting places and events that were important to me, was quite damaging.  damaging to me I mean.

I find myself in agreement with I Am Redeemed.

My take on mediation is that it won't matter how reasonable you are, or how fair.

Being reasonable and fair has never really impacted your wife's behavior.   She never stopped threatening to burn the house down because you were reasonable and fair.    So as I see it,   the only reason to be reasonable and fair is because it makes you feel better, more comfortable, matches your values, reflects your world view.    If that isn't true, I would suggest giving your wife a hard shove back into her lane.

my two cents.
'ducks

[formflier]

So what are you hoping to accomplish or that she will be like at mediation...? 

Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

So what are you hoping to accomplish or that she will be like at mediation...? 

Best,

FF

I'd like to settle, and I think the more she feels cornered or like I'm trying to "get" her somehow, the less likely she is to settle. Again, I don't think a settlement is likely, but I still think it's possible. I think she trusts and likes her attorney, and i know that I am going to be reasonable and fair, and I hope her L will be able to convince her to take what is on the table instead of risking a worse outcome at trial. I think any chance of that vanishes if I push her violations of the order of protection. If she doesn't escalate what she's doing, I can live with it until we can see if mediation can work. My goal is to keep avenues open that get this over with as soon as possible.

[formflier]

 
When is mediation scheduled? 

Basically I'm asking how much longer you have to endure this?

Best,

FF

[Warriorprincess]

Dear StolenCrumbs,
I’m in mediation with my wifewBPD right now, and she is painting a picture of herself as the eternal victim. I’m lucky that so far things are getting done in a timely manner, so I absolutely feel for you with all the delays. There was one thing in your initial update that really struck me: “That email also contained one of her old favorite threats--to reveal all of my "secrets," mainly about abuse I experienced as a child. That she attempts to weaponize that still takes me back a bit.” It is incredibly hurtful and truly unbelievable when my W brings up my abusive childhood. In my case, to hit as below the belt as she can, she tells me I’m lying about it and nothing really happened to me - I just “claim” that everyone abuses me. She’s gone to my sister and my sister-in-law about my supposed “pathology” about making up abuse. Unfortunately I made the mistake of telling her once that accusing a victim of making things up is the worst thing you could do to someone - so I told her how she could hurt me. What I didn’t know then is that there are worse things - such as, telling my brother’s wife about things my brother did to me. My sis-in-law was confused and upset. Who goes to an innocent bystander and tells them that? I just cant wrap my head around it.
Best of luck,
Warriorprincess

[stolencrumbs]

When is mediation scheduled? 

Basically I'm asking how much longer you have to endure this?

Best,

FF

There is no date set. My L has been attempting to schedule it for at least six months. I don't know what else there is that can delay it much longer, but if there is something, I'm sure my w will find it.

[stolencrumbs]

Dear StolenCrumbs,
I’m in mediation with my wifewBPD right now, and she is painting a picture of herself as the eternal victim. I’m lucky that so far things are getting done in a timely manner, so I absolutely feel for you with all the delays. There was one thing in your initial update that really struck me: “That email also contained one of her old favorite threats--to reveal all of my "secrets," mainly about abuse I experienced as a child. That she attempts to weaponize that still takes me back a bit.” It is incredibly hurtful and truly unbelievable when my W brings up my abusive childhood. In my case, to hit as below the belt as she can, she tells me I’m lying about it and nothing really happened to me - I just “claim” that everyone abuses me. She’s gone to my sister and my sister-in-law about my supposed “pathology” about making up abuse. Unfortunately I made the mistake of telling her once that accusing a victim of making things up is the worst thing you could do to someone - so I told her how she could hurt me. What I didn’t know then is that there are worse things - such as, telling my brother’s wife about things my brother did to me. My sis-in-law was confused and upset. Who goes to an innocent bystander and tells them that? I just cant wrap my head around it.
Best of luck,
Warriorprincess

That's awful. I'm sorry that happened. It does feel like hitting way below the belt, and knowingly hitting below the belt. My w started by sending emails to my mom about it. Then she widened the scope and sent emails about it to everyone in my family whose email she had, hoping to send it to the person who abused me (I never told her who  it was, just that it happened.) Her newest thing she told me in email is that "we can all chat about it on the record in court." Seriously, wtf? My other favorite part about it is that when she emailed my family, she played the part of protecting me. The email was chastising my family for not protecting me, telling them what awful people they are, etc. Hang in there.

[formflier]

Might be worth discussing with your attorney an "automatic consequence" of some sort if she communicates with your family members outside approval of the court (which she will never gain)

Hoping that if she emails at some point in the future that ends payments/support until ? 

Basically you want to put her in the position of getting something she wants turned back on and or proving you turned it off inappropriately...rather than you trying to prove the court needs to do something to her.

Best,

FF

[Warriorprincess]

I'm sorry it happened to you too. My w also started under the guise of protecting me, but she was dissatisfied with the response she got from my family members (no response). So she told me well since your family denies it, you must be lying. It's way below the belt, vile, and despicable in my opinion. I am lucky that my family didn't get angry with me about it; rather my sister said it best, "A spouse who accuses you of lying about your childhood tells me all I need to know about their unsuitability." I would extend that statement to using childhood abuse as any sort of weapon.

I like FF's suggestion of "an "automatic consequence" of some sort if she communicates with your family members outside approval of the court (which she will never gain)." Also the idea of withholding support payments unless she follows certain guidelines. I'll plan to do that if my w crosses this line again. She wants support payments from me for 15 months and she wants to keep both dogs, so I do feel like I have some leverage if she starts getting nasty.

Thank you for compassion. -WP

[stolencrumbs]

So mediation is set for early July and we have a court date in October. Both of those dates seem really far away.

I met with my L today and he convinced me, after talking with my W's L, to dissolve the order of protection and replace it with an order that allows for minimal contact--she can only email (and it must be "reasonable") and she is prohibited from stalking, harassing, etc. This comes from my L who got it from her L, but my W is "fixated" on the order of protection and the chances of a settlement or mediation succeeding are virtually nil if the order is in place. The order of protection was dismissed without prejudice, so if she continues to do what she's doing, I can file it again. And the new order still carries the possibility of contempt, and my lawyer assures me our judge is not shy about finding people in contempt when they violate these kinds of orders. Still, I'm nervous about what my W might do if she feels freer to contact me. I guess I'm about to find out.

I'm also going to get the house appraised and come up with some kind of settlement offer before mediation. There is just zero advantage--financially or otherwise--of dragging this into court in October. I guess I feel like I'm giving her one more chance to stay between the guardrails and do what is ultimately in her own best interest. I'm not optimistic, but we'll see.   

[livednlearned]

I really feel for you. Hang in there.

Probably can't hurt to prepare for more of the same after the PO is dropped  

Not to say it's a right or wrong move to drop the PO.

My lawyer and ex's lawyer agreed to a watered down minimal agreement instead of a PO and the stonewalling definitely didn't stop. Some behaviors toned down then flared up again. I learned to adapt to the new normal and figured out how my courts worked, and then figured out how to close the loops. There are a lot of loops in the family law system.

There's a compulsion with some BPD sufferers to stay negatively engaged at all costs. It's a way of having the relationship without actively being in it.

For my ex, contempt of court was like getting a parking ticket. Being ordered to pay legal fees meant nothing. Your ex might be less bold (mine was an attorney).

The leverage you have is that you can file the PO again if she tests things. If that happens, and you are wavering about putting it back into place, see if you can get something in return, like getting her to move forward with the house if she's stonewalling on that.

She may move her focus to the house now that the PO is removed ... it probably depends on the degree to which this satisfies her compulsion to engage you. There are so many ways to prevent the sale of a house. It took me 4 trips to court and a separate real estate lawyer to give my ex the house.

If I were to do it again, I would never offer the house with no conditions. Instead, I would make an offer, and then set deadlines and reasonable consequences for non-compliance.

You may have to get creative with your circumstances and think about what might compel her to comply. If she doesn't comply, then have a consequence that you can actually enforce or one that you can do without her participation or consent.

For example, maybe you propose that you'll select three realtors and she can pick the one she wants to go with by day/date. If she hasn't picked one by then, you pick. The consequence is that you can move forward without her, and her consent is written the agreement as a consequence for not doing the reasonable thing.  

Another example might be that you two will work together on any house offers that come in. If neither of you can agree, then any offer within 5 percent of the asking price will automatically be in play. If parties cannot agree to multiple offers within 5 percent, then the one that is most profitable/has the fewest conditions will automatically go forward. Really work on that language ahead of time, thinking through as many scenarios as you can imagine so that you aren't stuck trying to convince her to do what makes most sense -- she will sense that you want something and she'll be hell bent on making sure you lose what you want so she can win, even if it means she loses too.

And when you do get something written up or ordered by a judge, it can help to have your lawyer be the one who writes it up. If you can get that, be sure there are consequences for non-compliance. Have deadlines and what will happen after those deadlines are missed. It could be things that you take away from your offer (like a percentage of the proceeds to cover court costs), or it could be actions that you take if she doesn't do her part by the deadline (like splitting the cost of a stager out of proceeds if the house hasn't sold by day/date).

That way, if you do have to return to court, the judge doesn't give her another bite of the apple that you end up paying for.

I wasted a lot of money watching the judge give my ex micro consequences that he perceived as finger wags. If I had written consequences into the order, then the judge would've ruled the way the order was written. "It says here if you don't do x, then y will happen. So that's what happens. You pay stolencrumbs $$ for not doing x."

You don't want to be a repeat customer in court if she's going to *stalk* you through the legal process, whether it's selling your home or other parts of the divorce.

[stolencrumbs]

I really feel for you. Hang in there.

Probably can't hurt to prepare for more of the same after the PO is dropped  

Not to say it's a right or wrong move to drop the PO.

My lawyer and ex's lawyer agreed to a watered down minimal agreement instead of a PO and the stonewalling definitely didn't stop. Some behaviors toned down then flared up again. I learned to adapt to the new normal and figured out how my courts worked, and then figured out how to close the loops. There are a lot of loops in the family law system.

There's a compulsion with some BPD sufferers to stay negatively engaged at all costs. It's a way of having the relationship without actively being in it.

For my ex, contempt of court was like getting a parking ticket. Being ordered to pay legal fees meant nothing. Your ex might be less bold (mine was an attorney).

The leverage you have is that you can file the PO again if she tests things. If that happens, and you are wavering about putting it back into place, see if you can get something in return, like getting her to move forward with the house if she's stonewalling on that.

She may move her focus to the house now that the PO is removed ... it probably depends on the degree to which this satisfies her compulsion to engage you. There are so many ways to prevent the sale of a house. It took me 4 trips to court and a separate real estate lawyer to give my ex the house.

If I were to do it again, I would never offer the house with no conditions. Instead, I would make an offer, and then set deadlines and reasonable consequences for non-compliance.

You may have to get creative with your circumstances and think about what might compel her to comply. If she doesn't comply, then have a consequence that you can actually enforce or one that you can do without her participation or consent.

For example, maybe you propose that you'll select three realtors and she can pick the one she wants to go with by day/date. If she hasn't picked one by then, you pick. The consequence is that you can move forward without her, and her consent is written the agreement as a consequence for not doing the reasonable thing.  

Another example might be that you two will work together on any house offers that come in. If neither of you can agree, then any offer within 5 percent of the asking price will automatically be in play. If parties cannot agree to multiple offers within 5 percent, then the one that is most profitable/has the fewest conditions will automatically go forward. Really work on that language ahead of time, thinking through as many scenarios as you can imagine so that you aren't stuck trying to convince her to do what makes most sense -- she will sense that you want something and she'll be hell bent on making sure you lose what you want so she can win, even if it means she loses too.

And when you do get something written up or ordered by a judge, it can help to have your lawyer be the one who writes it up. If you can get that, be sure there are consequences for non-compliance. Have deadlines and what will happen after those deadlines are missed. It could be things that you take away from your offer (like a percentage of the proceeds to cover court costs), or it could be actions that you take if she doesn't do her part by the deadline (like splitting the cost of a stager out of proceeds if the house hasn't sold by day/date).

That way, if you do have to return to court, the judge doesn't give her another bite of the apple that you end up paying for.

I wasted a lot of money watching the judge give my ex micro consequences that he perceived as finger wags. If I had written consequences into the order, then the judge would've ruled the way the order was written. "It says here if you don't do x, then y will happen. So that's what happens. You pay stolencrumbs $$ for not doing x."

You don't want to be a repeat customer in court if she's going to *stalk* you through the legal process, whether it's selling your home or other parts of the divorce.

Thanks! That is all super helpful, and stuff I will definitely keep in mind when we actually get to the point of negotiating anything. I now wish I had pushed my L to be more specific about the terms of the new order--more specificity about what she can contact me about, i.e., house repairs, vet care for our dogs, etc, and what would happen if she broke that. I don't like the catch-all "reasonable communication" clause, but we'll see how it goes. I really like the idea of building in some automatic consequences into the agreements. I don't think my L normally gets that creative, but I think I can convince him to get creative. 

[livednlearned]

I really like the idea of building in some automatic consequences into the agreements. I don't think my L normally gets that creative, but I think I can convince him to get creative. 

Lawyers don't really have a reason to get creative because more trips to court, more phone calls = more money. You're the best advocate for yourself and your lawyer works for you, so a bunch of creativity is going to come from you. Your lawyer's job is to let you know if what you propose is reasonable, fair, and if the language will fly in court, and give you an idea about how similar issues have been solved before, etc.

Basically, all you're doing is problem-solving 5 steps ahead and putting in consequences and contingencies for non-compliance or stonewalling 

[kells76]

I wonder if sharing any of Bill Eddy's articles with your L might help him/her understand the "creativity" necessary in your case, or at least give some structured vocabulary to how you guys talk about strategy -- that this isn't just a garden-variety "well, she's sort of stalking me and finds it hard to let go" kind of thing. She's a high-conflict person and so traditional legal approaches won't come anywhere near protecting you from her.

Of course, you may be past that point with your L already -- I can't remember how on board he/she is with the true nature of your W.

Eddy's articles page is here:

https://www.highconflictinstitute.com/blog

And a "40 traits of HCP" article is here:

https://www.highconflictinstitute.com/hci-articles/anybody-you-know-40-predictable-characteristics-of-high-conflict-people

[MeandThee29]

I'm sorry that you are going through this. It helped me a lot to know that complicated cases are the norm when a PD is involved. It wasn't me, it was my ex that was driving it. Thankfully both attorneys knew that.

My attorney was indeed a specialist in high conflict divorce and knew all about Bill Eddy and recommended his books. However, things just kept stalling and expanding and moving. He was really frustrated that my case was relatively simple and just went on-and-on. Apparently my ex's attorney felt the same (they were friends).

Ironically it was something entirely outside of the case and then taking a chance several months later that got it settled out of court. I got a little concerned when my attorney started asking me what my gut feeling was and talking about looking for what he called "the wedge." He said that apart from court, he was running out of ways to contain the mess. So yes, we had to be creative. My attorney had 40+ years of experience, so I figured he would know an angle when he saw it. He did, and we settled without going to court. I was unbelievably grateful that I had hired him.

I truly admire people that go into divorce law. I would never have the emotional stamina for these kinds of cases. I'm a teacher and am fine with cranky students, but disordered spouses -- NOO!

[babyducks]

Any updates you would care to share SC?

How are things going for you now?

[stolencrumbs]

Any updates you would care to share SC?

How are things going for you now?

Thanks for checking in, ducks. Nothing new to report really. My wife has stuck to just email contact, and it hasn't gotten too out of control. There's lots of blame and victim-playing in pretty much all the emails, but that affects me much less than it used to. She does seem to still be tracking my whereabouts somehow, and I still can't figure out how. I've been on four different trips. On three of them, I got emails from her that made either direct or indirect references to me being out of town. In one, she knew who I was with. In another, she knew it was "vacation" and not a work trip. On one trip, I was in a rental car. On another short trip, I took a different phone. On another, she didn't seem to know I was gone at all. So I can't figure that out. Given how much money she claims to have spent already on the divorce, I think she might've hired a PI. But that's a guess at this point. I'm still trying to just make it to mediation, which is now two weeks away.

Her current stance is that mediation is pointless and that she will go sit there for however long we are required to, but she doesn't intend to settle anything. I'm going to try to trust the process and hope something can happen in mediation. She is often more bark than bite, so maybe she'll come around by then, or when she's actually sitting there with other people. None of it really makes sense, but that's expected. She simultaneously complains that this costs too much money while also having her lawyer threaten to file a motion to compel and delay mediation because my answers to their 99 interrogatories were "deficient" because I didn't provide an itemized list of what I bought with cash and because I didn't provide an account summary of my ID card that I use to buy lunch on campus. It's ridiculous and frustrating, but again, just hoping to make it to mediation and see what happens there.

The latest thing, which has happened in the last few days, is that one of our dogs (he is now 17, we rescued him when he was about 5) is dying. He has a giant tumor in his abdomen and there's nothing to do about it. So she's been emailing me about him, simultaneously telling me I don't care about the dogs and asking if I want to come over to see him, and asking that I help if he dies at home or go to the vet with her if she decides to euthanize him. I knew at some point she would use the dogs to try to get me to do something. I've talked about it with my therapist before all of this happened. We decided there wasn't really anything I could do or needed to do. But now that it's happening, it's hard to hold to that. I would like to see my dog alive again, and I'd like to be there when he dies if he is euthanized. But I don't want to see her and deal with whatever else will come along with seeing the dog, or be face-to-face with more suicide threats and guilt-tripping because the dog has died. I think I'm much less susceptible to all of that, but I don't really want to find out how susceptible I still might be.

All in all, I'm doing well. The rest of my life is great, and this part of my life occupies a whole lot less mental and emotional space than it did even a few months ago. I just want it all to be over and it's really frustrating how long it's taking. I am hoping the dog doesn't die before mediation and that something can get done then. Hope isn't really a plan, but that's the plan for now.

[GaGrl]

I agree that a highly emotional situation such as a pet euthanasia is not an appropriate space for you to share with your STBX. She is far too volatile.

On mediation...is the intent that you and your lawyer will be in the same room as STBX and her lawyer? Because you can request to be in separate rooms with the mediator moving between rooms.

[Cat Familiar]

So sorry about your elderly dog.    Just had to put down one of my cats that has had long-standing health problems. It’s never easy.

You’re getting a very clear picture of how intransigent she is.

[formflier]

Sorry about the dog situation.  Never easy.   

Can you insist on separate rooms so you don't have to actually see her?

Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

Thanks all. Eight or none years ago we had five dogs. We're about to be down to one. It's never easy.

I don't know yet how mediation will be structured. I will talk to my lawyer about it. My thought is that I want to let my wife decide how things will go. If she wants us to be in the same room, I can deal with that. I think the less she feels in control, the less well it is likely to go, and I think insisting on being separate will put things on a bad footing from the start.

[ForeverDad]

Some states don't allow the lawyers to be present.  If that's how it is done in your state, then you always have the option to declare a break to stretch your legs or use a restroom and you can quietly consult during the break.

Remember, mediation does not have to succeed, though of course that would be nice.  However, if she refuses to be reasonable in negotiations then you are entitled to declare the session failed.

Probably best not to put forward your best deal, good to hold some portions in reserve, because you can predict that even more will be demanded.  Negotiation is give and take.  Just be careful that you're not always giving and your stbEx always taking.

[babyducks]

I don't know yet how mediation will be structured. I will talk to my lawyer about it. My thought is that I want to let my wife decide how things will go. If she wants us to be in the same room, I can deal with that. I think the less she feels in control, the less well it is likely to go, and I think insisting on being separate will put things on a bad footing from the start.

so very sorry about the dog stolencrumbs.    I know that's hard.    they do pull at our heartstrings.

hmmmm.    I am not sure about the idea of letting your wife decide how things would go.      and I am not sure you being in the same room with her wouldn't be more than she could handle emotionally.    would you feel comfortable declaring the session failed or taking a break?      do you have a plan of how to protect yourself if she dysregulates?

I think ForeverDad raises a good point - what ever deal you put on the table should be calibrated to account for her being unreasonable.   because that is more than likely to happen.

thanks for the update.    appreciate hearing from you.

[formflier]

Please talk to your lawyer ASAP about who will be present and options for in person versus different rooms.

If you can post those options here..we can guide you.

I'm concerned about you being in same room..really concerned.  Perhaps if lawyer is present you can work out a "sign" to him ahead of time where he asks for a break.

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

The only advantage I can see to being in the same room would be that both lawyers would be able to see how intractable and possibly deregulated she can get. That could help both lawyers with future strategy. You know your STBX's lawyer has his/her hands full!

The primary disadvantage I see in being in the same room would be triggering her to a level of suicide threats.

[formflier]

I think it would be helpful for both lawyers to see her in action.

Hopefully that can happen without stolencrumbs being in there.

Maybe there is a covid angle or something like that which can be an appropriate ruse.

Plus it can validate that the lawyers are driving the bus and all that..vice a requirement that stolencrumbs "has to" do this or that.

Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

The "normal" way mediation works in my state is the "shuttle" approach, where the mediator shuttles back and forth between the two parties who are in separate rooms. Unless she specifically requests something different, I think that is how it will go, but I am meeting with my L next week to talk about mediation.

I don't actually think she'll have a meltdown in mediation. She usually keeps it together when she is around other people. She will definitely play the victim, so there may be some tears, but I don't think there will be a total meltdown. I suspect she will either take an extreme and unreasonable position and refuse to budge, or we will seemingly make some progress only for her to torpedo it once the first day of mediation is over.

I'm still willing to give up a lot to get this over with. I am hoping her unreasonable offer, whatever it may be, is something that I can work with. I have no possessions or amount of money that is worth dragging this out longer than is necessary. My main concern is alimony, and I'm hoping I can trade home equity, retirement accounts, possessions, and anything else I can to reduce alimony and give me a chance to build my life back moving forward. Probably a pipe dream, but that's my hope. 

[formflier]

I would ask your lawyer if language can be put in there that says.

Alimony will be paid for X time as long as SC ex wife (fill in blank)..stays no contact..no emails...or only communicates via a court order app or whatever.

Make sure your L knows that whatever the conditions..she will not comply and you don't want to be divorced..yet still on the hook for alimony AND a life of constant horror communications.

Said another way..incentivize  her to behave properly and compensate you for her misbehavior...AUTOMATICALLY.

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

A 13 year marriage would probably be viewed a medium length marriage.  Most states would probably ignore your time together before marriage.  How long have you been living separately?

If you've been driven from the home for some time, that would imply she's had sole use of your family's home.  Your lawyer could advise you on whether that would weaken her claim to alimony, or at least shorten it.

These days alimony is usually limited to half the length of the marriage, and generally less than that.  In my case, we were married for over 15 years when we separated and with her dragging out the divorce for two years we had the final decree just days after out 18th year ended.  I don't know how my lawyer did it but I paid alimony based on 1 year for every 6 years of marriage... that was 3 years total.

A perspective to keep in mind is this:  Many courts expect both spouses to separate their lives and Move On.  Alimony is generally viewed nowadays as an aid for the disadvantaged person to transition into post-marriage life.  It's not a freebie, though she may view it that way.

Another perspective is that if she doesn't currently work then you need to express the expectation that she needs to find gainful employment.  She may be very messed up, court may (or may not) ignore much of her messed up behaviors, but she is NOT disabled.

One more observation... If you go into mediation or later into court and you *expect* to pay alimony, then I predict you'll walk out stuck with hefty alimony.  Don't walk in feeling the loser before you even get started.  You know that saying about self-fulfilling prophecies.

[Cat Familiar]

I agree with Forever Dad in that you don’t want to start negotiations from a perspective that you’re ready to freely hand over anything.

Look at your situation as an outsider would see it. She basically drove you out of the house. You had to live in your office and car. She expected you to be the gardener and handyman to do repairs on the house where she damaged countertops, broke windows, put holes in drywall.

Meanwhile you lived a meager lifestyle for years to support her living in the home you jointly owned.

If your experience with the opposing attorney is anything like mine, you will be surprised by some of the expectations pulled out of thin air. Legal proceedings are not a place for generosity of spirit. You need to be prepared for battle, not surrender.
 

[stolencrumbs]

First round of mediation was today. It was, um, not successful. We had another session scheduled for Thursday, but we cancelled that because unless her approach changes, nothing is going to get settled. The mediator was pretty quickly frustrated by my stbx. She didn't really even talk to me about any of her "offers" because they were so ridiculous. The mediator came in and chit-chatted with us a couple of times to just give stbx and her lawyer a chance to come up with something reasonable. That didn't happen.

I know I shouldn't be surprised by the irrationality at this point, but I am. The mediator flat out told me I would do really well in court, and that she can't imagine any judge giving her anything like what I'm already willing to give her. She told stbx that as well. Didn't matter. Roughly, stbx wants alimony in futuro, at 50% of my income (which was down from 90% where she started), me to pay for her health care forever, 100% of the equity in the house, half my retirement, me buy her car for her, and pay her moving expenses whenever she decides to move (and also help her buy a house somewhere if she finds a house she wants.) As the mediator said, she's living in la-la land. Any other suggestions were shut down pretty quickly.

My L said her L was exasperated. They met for a bit without us and he said her L just sort of threw up his hands and didn't know what to do. The mediator said stbx's lawyer, who the mediator has worked with a lot, seemed "beaten down" and was unusually quiet about everything. Yeah, that sounds about right. I can tell people all day that working with stbx on anything is a challenge, but I don't think anybody really gets it until they try to do it.

She did ask to talk with me at the end and I agreed. Prior to that we were in separate rooms. There wasn't really progress in the private conversation, except that I guess it kept some hope of mediation alive. It was fine and did not go off the rails, but she pretty much has no realistic idea of what it is she wants. She said she would email me some ideas she has that she says the mediator didn't want to hear. I'm doubtful those ideas will be helpful. She also said that she didn't want to go to trial and wanted to keep trying to figure this out. So I think the plan is to schedule mediation again at some later date and see how it goes then. My hope is that she maybe got a sense of the reality of the situation today and, given time to digest it, might readjust her proposals to more closely align with reality. Going to trial is not going to be better for her, and maybe she'll come around to seeing that. I think it actually would be better for me, but it's three more months and a whole lot more money to get there. 

All in all, a pretty frustrating and expensive day.

[Cat Familiar]

Aargh!  No surprises, huh?

Though it will cost more in lawyer’s fees, going to court might in the end save you a ton of money in the future.

Like so many soon to be ex-partners of PwBPD, you might be generous to a fault and negotiating against your best interests in mediation.

[Cat Familiar]

And an extra three months, though it seems like forever right now, will just fly by when you think about this whole process in retrospect.

[GaGrl]

And ...now you and the two lawyers know why mediation rarely works with a pwBPD. Not unexpected, and now you know more exactly what great expectations she has (and they are totally unreasonable).

Point by point, what is typical for a 13-year marriage to be settlement in court in your area? You might have your lawyer present your generous offer, along with the settlement that would most probably be court ordered in trial, and give her A weeks to accept your offer. If not accepted, that offer is off the table, and you take it to the judge.

[worriedStepmom]

Do you really think another round of mediation will be successful?

How many rounds of mediation are you willing to have (and how much are you willing to pay for them)?

Most likely case is you pay for mediation and then still go to trial...and possibly that she settles on the courthouse steps.

How willing are you to play hardball?  As GaGirl mentioned, give her two options and let her pick...and if she doesn't pick one, then in court you are going to ask that the agreement also include no contact, and if she violates it you can have her brought up on contempt charges for every single email she sends.

Your L might have some advice after this mediation session, but I think if you really want to be divorced soon and for as little money as possible, now is the time to stop coddling your W's feelings.

[formflier]

So...did the mediator give you an example of what you would likely get in court?

Has your L given you such a list? 

How do those lists compare?

So..you've seen the beast...you know that there is only one way out of this (possibly two)

Make sure you have a solid idea of what the likely outcome of a trial will be.  Ask questions if you present "fault" or "unreasonableness" on her part if it gets better for you?

Anyway...you need to know what that looks like.

Then tell your L to get to court ASAP...no more mediation.

The possible number 2 way to get out of it is a pre trial settlement.  Maybe even courthouse steps.

Instruct your L that you will ONLY accept something that is "less than" what you would get in court.  You might use her fear of court to your advantage here.

Sorry you had to go through with this.

Best,

FF

[mart555]

I know I shouldn't be surprised by the irrationality at this point, but I am.

Welcome to the club.  I wasted 3 days in mediation because we came to an agreement and then she reneged on it..  she wanted more.   I pretty much could have written your post.  Well in my case the mediator was useless and clearly had no clue about BPD and everything that happened.. "oh! maybe the kids could have a sleepover at mom's house" and a bunch of other stuff that really made no sense.  So my ex had her sense of entitlement inflated by her first lawyer, that mediator, and her lawyer.  Her lawyer #2 was more realistic so she dumped him.

Rushing to trial may or may not be a wise decision.  If status quo is in your favor, you may want to take your time.  Your lawyer would know best.  In my case I am risking lifetime alimony and my kids are getting older and will have their opinion heard, so I'm in no rush to go to trial.

Keep in mind that if your ex "settling things outside of trial" means "you accepting her offer".  I keep getting garbage offers from my ex, it's maddening.  Yet she blames me for not wanting to settle. 

Like you sometimes I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel.. or I see it and I'm not sure if it's a train or what.

[babyducks]

My hope is that she maybe got a sense of the reality of the situation today and, given time to digest it, might readjust her proposals to more closely align with reality.

Reality has never really been her strong suit Stolencrumbs.   

I am going to suggest that now you have communicated with her in person and the door is open for emailing ideas for mediation this will drag on.      I seem to remember that is not what you said you wanted.

I find myself in agreement with worriedStepMom, and others.     If there is nothing productive occurring take this to the next step.   I suspect that is uncomfortable to contemplate.    Probably goes against the grain.    if I understand what you are describing accurately... the best solution for both you and your wife is for you to take charge of this and push it towards resolution.

Sorry to hear that this continues to be a struggle.

'ducks

[stolencrumbs]

So the trial date is already set. It's been set for a while, and according to my L, it isn't going to change. It's in early October. So far as moving anything forward, there isn't much to do. It is moving forward towards that date. We basically have a few weeks to figure something else out or everyone is going to start preparing for trial.

I feel pretty certain that I will be better off financially, and probably in other ways, by just letting the court decide things. I would still like to reach a settlement that (a) I'm okay with and (b) helps stbx transition to a life where I am not supporting her. But I'm not going to bend over backwards to try to solve problems for her and come up with a proposal that satisfies her ever-shifting bundle of needs. I remain open to anything reasonable she might propose. Absent that, I will probably try to come up with a proposal before we get closer to trial. If we start depositions and trial prep and such, I don't really see any reason to settle anything at that point. I don't want to play "hardball," but my L is happy to do so and is actually pretty excited about the possibility of taking this to trial.

She did email me last night, and mostly it was about how bad she thought mediation was, how she felt bullied and was "terrified," and couldn't believe the things that were being communicated "on my behalf." No new suggestions for anything, but another promissory note that she would send suggestions when she got over the "shell shock" of mediation. So we'll see.

[formflier]

One of the things that has amazed me over the years is the number of people that have settled "on the courthouse steps"...many times quite literally there.

While I don't want you to "count on" this happening, I hope you will be prepared for that possibility.  Clarity on what will likely happen in trial is important so it's clear to you that any deal you take is "better".


Are you surprised at how mediation went?  Does that experience inform you about the next few months?

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

My experience in court was that it didn’t take long before the judge sent the two parties to separate rooms to come to an agreement. It was like mediation on steroids.

Neither party was pleased with the outcome. However in retrospect, I got away with a bargain. I paid off the credit card debt he accrued after our split and gave him some cash.

In return, the property and truck I bought with my inheritance were deemed my sole ownership, which legally they should have been, but he tried to claim 50%.

Now my home is valued in the million dollar + range. And I paid him tens of thousands of dollars to go away. I call that a bargain!

[ForeverDad]

One of the things that has amazed me over the years is the number of people that have settled "on the courthouse steps"...many times quite literally there.

While I don't want you to "count on" this happening, I hope you will be prepared for that possibility.  Clarity on what will likely happen in trial is important so it's clear to you that any deal you take is "better".

That happened to me.  Two years in separation and then the divorce process.  She forced us into every single step — temp order (2 of them both favorable to her), parenting classes, mediation attempt (failed of course), parenting investigation, custody evaluation, settlement conference (failed miserably) and a few continuances thrown in to delay even more.  I recently reread my lawyer's correspondence of the failed settlement conference where she threatened me if I sought custody.  Though the lawyers were witnesses, they said I couldn't use it against her.  But still, my lawyer wrote and tried once more with a settlement offer.  But yes I was surprised upon arriving at court on Trial Day that I was met with news she was finally ready to settle.  The reality?  She was backed into a corner by the process and could delay no longer.

[stolencrumbs]

One of the things that has amazed me over the years is the number of people that have settled "on the courthouse steps"...many times quite literally there.

While I don't want you to "count on" this happening, I hope you will be prepared for that possibility.  Clarity on what will likely happen in trial is important so it's clear to you that any deal you take is "better".


Are you surprised at how mediation went?  Does that experience inform you about the next few months?

Best,

FF

I don't think there's any settlement on the courthouse steps that I'll take. I want to avoid getting there. If I spend the time and money to get to the trial date, I'll take what the judge decides. I'm pretty sure I will do better at trial than I would do settling. I want this done, but if I just have to wait out a trial, I can do that. I have plenty of practice with patience.

I wasn't really surprised. I was surprised by how badly her lawyer seemed to have prepared her for what mediation would be like. It went more or less just like my L described. She seems to be completely taken aback by the process.

I was also a little surprised by how bad the mediator was at dealing with her. If she had told me her plan was to give stbx "a dose of reality," I would've saved my money. Everybody seems to think they are going to be the one with some magic touch that gets her to be reasonable. No, no, no, and no. I know her better than anyone, and that's not going to happen. If you want her to cut off her nose to spite her face, try that tactic. But I guess it's not the mediator's job to coddle her. She treated her like a normal human being. Fair enough. But that's not what we're dealing with here.

I don't know that I learned a lot. I think it reinforced that if there is going to be any settlement, it's going to require me jumping through her hoops and playing whatever game she wants to play. I don't intend to do that. I will give her another opportunity to be reasonable and take a settlement that will be better for her. If she's not interested, we'll go to trial and I'll let my L represent my interests. 

[Cat Familiar]

My experience was that even though my ex got the worst *pitbull* attorney in town, she was well aware that she was dealing with someone who wasn’t shall we say *normal*. 

At the end of the negotiated settlement in the side room of the court, she came in and I was there with my attorney as we wrapped up details.

She threw me a bone at the end when somehow the conversation veered to attorney’s fees. Apparently he owed her a lot of money at this point and she said that she’d just have to get it out of him in yard work, then rolled her eyes.

I mentioned that I thought he was working for an electrical contractor, her boyfriend. (Small town). She said, “Yeah, Brady says he’s not very good.”

This was balm to my ears. My ex had always asserted that he was an expert in everything, contrary to reality. And I had begun to believe that he was at least somewhat competent in something.

[formflier]

I don't think there's any settlement on the courthouse steps that I'll take. I want to avoid getting there.  

Hey...a bit concerned that this "point" might not be landing with you.  Perhaps "possibility" is the better word.

1.  I think you know on some level, you are going to trial OR you are going to pay her a bunch more than a judge would give.  Right?

2.  It's important that you have a firm understanding of what a judge would give.

3.  If...big IF...you are literally on the courthouse steps and are offered a deal that is BETTER than what a judge would give...how on earth does it make rational sense that you would reject that, spend extra lawyer fees and go to trial?

You know...YOU KNOW she is not rational.  Right?  

It isn't rational for her to "take" or "give" a deal prior to court, when she will get more at trial.  Right?

Yet...her fears and "stuff" may get in the way and she may "take a deal".

You should be prepared for that, but not "count on it".

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I get it that you want to help your stbex transition and hopefully become more healthy.

I would separate that desire from the divorce proceedings/deal. 

Let's say you end up with a really favorable settlement.  You can always offer in the future to pay for a treatment program for your stbex or pay for other things that could help turn her life around.

In fact it's possible that might be more possible with a lesser settlement, because if you get locked into paying a high settlement, you may not have disposable income left to help her.  Because we know she will likely fritter away any money she gets to spend as she wishes..right?

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

It occurs to me that you and your lawyer could construct your offer based on "moving STBX toward a healthy, independent life," and actually include in the offer payment of an outpatient DBT program.,

Hmmmm...just put it right out there.

[kells76]

actually include in the offer payment of an outpatient DBT program.,

and you could decide if you want that to be "contingent" on anything.

or if you would want it to be "the equivalent $ amount of alimony" (or whatever), but in DBT program payment format. Like giving someone a gift card instead of cash.

[formflier]

Or even that you would pay for "completion" of a program or something like that. 

Everyone has the right idea...minimize "free cash" that she does what she wants with.

Maximize paying for healthy services directly.

Perhaps another thing to consider.

I'm assuming she gets the house.  It would be cleaner if the house was sold and she was in charge of her own housing, but she could screw that up as well.

I wonder...

If she gets the house and if you are still on the hook for paying her cash, could it be put in there that you paying mortgage, taxes, insurance directly "counts". 

It's obvious you care about her well being and want her to have "the best chance".

Last:  In accordance with the idea of her getting the house and perhaps you paying directly, I wonder if instead of quit claiming to her, you give her a "life estate". 

Should she ever want to move or if she pre-deceases you, the property reverts to you by deed (not by will).

It's worth a shot.



Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

Or even that you would pay for "completion" of a program or something like that. 

Everyone has the right idea...minimize "free cash" that she does what she wants with.

Maximize paying for healthy services directly.

Perhaps another thing to consider.

I'm assuming she gets the house.  It would be cleaner if the house was sold and she was in charge of her own housing, but she could screw that up as well.

I wonder...

If she gets the house and if you are still on the hook for paying her cash, could it be put in there that you paying mortgage, taxes, insurance directly "counts". 

It's obvious you care about her well being and want her to have "the best chance".

Last:  In accordance with the idea of her getting the house and perhaps you paying directly, I wonder if instead of quit claiming to her, you give her a "life estate". 

Should she ever want to move or if she pre-deceases you, the property reverts to you by deed (not by will).

It's worth a shot.



Best,

FF

I like the idea of switching my thinking around. If I get more in this settlement or judgment, it is more money for me to decide what to do with. It doesn't preclude me from helping her. It just gives me control over that. Not sure if that's exactly what you were suggesting in a previous post, but I had not really thought about it that way.

On the house, no, she does not get it. If this goes to court, it will be sold, probably sooner than she wants. She has no income and could not get a mortgage for the house. There is also a considerable amount of equity in the house (somewhere north of $200k). This was all part of what was discussed at mediation. We made an offer to give her all of the equity in return for a much shorter and less generous alimony payment. She did not want that. I don't think she wants to move right now, and I am willing to keep her in the house for some period of time, maybe a year. We also proposed that, with the mortgage payments and any increase in equity coming back to me when it does sell. She was more interested in that, but still insisted on alimony in futuro, which is a non-starter for me. According to my L, that is absolutely my worst possible day in court and is just not going to happen. So if she insists on that, we'll just go to trial.

The other factor, which I think I've mentioned but who knows how long ago, is that stbx has an expensive chronic medical condition. She needs health insurance. She is legitimately worried about paying for her health care needs. It's all currently covered by my employer-based insurance. My wonderful state did not expand Medicaid, so she won't qualify for that. And because she has no income, she doesn't qualify for any subsidies on the health care exchange. And because of the Trump tax changes, alimony no longer counts as income. So there is a real worry about how to pay for insurance that will cover her very expensive medical needs. (She gets treatment once a month, and our insurance is billed ~$12,000/month, every month.) 

[formflier]

I like the idea of switching my thinking around. If I get more in this settlement or judgment, it is more money for me to decide what to do with. It doesn't preclude me from helping her. It just gives me control over that. Not sure if that's exactly what you were suggesting in a previous post, but I had not really thought about it that way.
 

You got the basic gist of my idea. 

There will be some amount of money/value that the courts or a settlement will "direct" towards her.  Of that part that is "mandatory", you want to "control" as much of that as possible.  So..instead of giving her $1k per month cash payment that she can blow on silly things at her whim...if you can have the settlement say $1k per month paid towards her house or health insurance or (you get the picture)..so she doesn't fritter it away.

I'm a real estate guy and over the years it's been very good to me.  So that is where the "life estate" idea comes from.

She gets to live there and when that is over or if she moves and gives up the right to live there, you are back in control of the house and can sell it, and hopefully pocket much more equity that has built up.

So..might want to compare the alimony that you believe you will be "stuck with" to the monthly mortgage payment on the house.  If that is close...this idea might be worth pursuing. 

Granted...something like this is not a clean break...so...   look at it from that angle as well.

Back to the original point.  Minimize the "mandatory part" and that maximizes the amount of income and value that you can choose to use to help her..or not.

Hey...over to you on your comfort level to discuss figures here, but if you were offering her $200k to "go away" (the equity in the house), it seems to me she is set to get  substantial amount out of this, even from a judge.  Am I correct about this?

Again..over to you how much in the weeds you want to go.

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

How much would health insurance cost her independently? How can that be packaged with the alimony and house equity into something that works for her?

What actions has she taken to get Social Security Disability and Medicare/Medicaid? Can part of your settlement proposal include X dollars for a lawyer to assist her with disability filings?

Yes, this is definitely about changing your perspective. You are a kind person and want to help provide a plan and path for her to achieve health and independence in X years, with some assurance that she will follow the path -- NOT that you will hand over funds expecting her to use those funds wisely (how has that worked in the past?).

Is there a possibility that you will offer reasonable support (health insurance in the interim prior to obtaining disability, lawyer fees to obtain disability, DBT program fees to improve mental and emotional functionality) but that she will fail to avail herself of that support? Yes. But if you hand over alimony and cash equity with no plan or path, she'll be in even worse shape 6-7 years down the road having had no incentive to improve.

[ForeverDad]

And be careful to set limits (including expiration date) to any offer.  Her natural inclination will be to delay hoping for more and more concessions.  Trials are expensive and so if she delays that much then cancel any prior offers since they would have included incentives to avoid trial.

Remember, this is to be handled similar to undoing a business merger... emotions are to be set aside.

[formflier]

I somehow assumed she was on SSDI or some kind of disability?  Is this the case?

Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

I somehow assumed she was on SSDI or some kind of disability?  Is this the case?

Best,

FF

No, she's not, and likely would not qualify for it. Her medical situation is complicated. The quick version is that she was sick for a couple of years about 10 years ago. After seeing every doctor around, she was eventually diagnosed with a rare kind of cancer and started the treatment she is still on. It helped with all of the symptoms and she lives a more or less normal life (physically). There has never been any pathology to confirm it was/is cancer, and they have never found a tumor. We have seen experts across the country--some are willing to say it is cancer, others are not. Whatever it is, the monthly treatment does help, and it is expensive. But I don't think there's any way she qualifies for SSDI. She claims that she wants to work, but doesn't think she can work full time. And she thinks that if she loses health insurance, she will be sick again, and won't be able to work at all. If this goes to trial, her health will probably be the biggest part of figuring this out.

The problem with her staying in the house for any period of time is that our current life is not sustainable. I work two jobs, deposit both paychecks into our joint account, and she spends every bit of it, or it is spent on the mortgage, her car, her bills, etc. I've lived off leftover money from an insurance payment and credit cards for a long time. I currently live rent-free and get a lot of free meals on campus. That's obviously not a viable long-term plan. I did that to try to get to the end of this. (She was surprised when the mediator informed her that I could have not given her anything and forced a temporary order that would have been a lot less generous than I've been.)

Anyway, for me, there is thinking about how to just survive the next however long, and then thinking about the longer-term future. In a lot of ways, a trial and a clean break will be easier for me. I can survive the next three months. But I think that's bad for her, and something that is bad for her is likely to be bad for me in terms of what she directs at me. There are firewalls I can put up, but it'd be worth it to me to figure out something that she can somewhat get on board with.

She did send me an email a little while ago that was mostly reasonable (and by "reasonable" I just mean not completely off the rails) and talked about her "goals" in this. She wants to stay in the house for now. She doesn't want to be forced out. She wants her car. She wants to be able to buy a (smaller) house for herself whenever she decides to move. She wants to get a part-time job and doesn't expect me to "fully" support her. She seems to still think I should provide support forever. I don't see any way to satisfy all of those "goals," but maybe there's some creative way to make some of it happen.

I don't really want to bet on it, but I do think she will get a full-time job at some point in the not-to-distant future and be successful in it. She is very good at what she does, and I think she will "feel" much better and more able when all of the divorce stuff is done.

[stolencrumbs]

How much would health insurance cost her independently? How can that be packaged with the alimony and house equity into something that works for her?

What actions has she taken to get Social Security Disability and Medicare/Medicaid? Can part of your settlement proposal include X dollars for a lawyer to assist her with disability filings?

Yes, this is definitely about changing your perspective. You are a kind person and want to help provide a plan and path for her to achieve health and independence in X years, with some assurance that she will follow the path -- NOT that you will hand over funds expecting her to use those funds wisely (how has that worked in the past?).

Is there a possibility that you will offer reasonable support (health insurance in the interim prior to obtaining disability, lawyer fees to obtain disability, DBT program fees to improve mental and emotional functionality) but that she will fail to avail herself of that support? Yes. But if you hand over alimony and cash equity with no plan or path, she'll be in even worse shape 6-7 years down the road having had no incentive to improve.

I don't know about insurance costs. COBRA, which she could do for 36 months, is about $1200/month. Premiums for private insurance would be less, but the out-of-pocket costs would be more. She will meet the out-of-pocket maximum every year, and private insurance plans I've seen have out-of-pocket maximums at $10-12k/year, which is about three times what our out-of-pocket maximum currently is. But I need to look more closely at the numbers on this.

For reasons I went over a bit in the previous post, I don't think she'd qualify for SSDI.

I think you're right about the perspective shift and trying to structure a proposal in a way that would actually help her. I don't think she'd take it, but that doesn't mean I can't put it on the table at some point.

[stolencrumbs]

Remember, this is to be handled similar to undoing a business merger... emotions are to be set aside.

Roger that.

[formflier]

Yeah as I read all that and hear you talking about a clean break...I think  the most likely outcome is "trial and done".

How many social security lawyers has she spoken with?  How many times has she applied for social security?  (and that was her choice.right?)

How many jobs has she applied for?

Ultimately it all comes down to her choice.

Note:  I'm on SSDI.  The average person passing me and perhaps some of my acquaintances might be surprised by this.  I was a bit surprised  when it was granted but I will tell you the SSDI rules are weird, I don't even begin to say I understand them. 

I've also "defended" the status one time since I was initially granted.  Basically they came and said "we don't think you are disabled anymore, so prove it again".

I was granted 100% Permanent and Total from the VA and was advised to investigate SSDI.  I showed my file to a social security lawyer and he said it was a "solid case", perhaps not a "slam dunk".  It went through and was approved first time.

Anyway...if one or two SSDI lawyers (there are ones out there that almost exclusively do this) look at it and say don't bother..then I probably wouldn't bother. 

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

I find it very strange that a cancer diagnosis can not be confirmed.

You might need to subpoena medical records for depositions.

[I Am Redeemed]

I find it very strange that a cancer diagnosis can not be confirmed.

You might need to subpoena medical records for depositions.

My thoughts exactly. This has been going on for ten years?

[stolencrumbs]

My thoughts exactly. This has been going on for ten years?

Yeah, like I said, it's complicated. It will definitely be an issue at trial. Her diagnosis is for neuroendocrine cancer. The oncologist who diagnosed her is a bit of a maverick. He diagnosed her through process of elimination and by seeing if the treatment worked. He eliminated through testing everything he could, then started treatment, and her symptoms improved dramatically. He is convinced it is cancer. These tumors (if they are there) are very, very small--like tip of a needle small. So they're hard to find if they're there. They are also very slow-growing. And research suggests that the treatment halts their growth and shrinks them. So this Dr.'s theory is that she has cancer and the treatment is keeping it from advancing/growing.

The specialist we saw, who is like one of six people in the world who specializes in this, was not prepared to call it cancer. He had about a dozen other patients like stbx. They had all the symptoms, treatment was effective, but no tumors ever showed up on any scans (and these were experimental scans designed to detect these tumors). He believed there was "something" going on with these people, but he wasn't prepared to call it cancer. He kept her as a patient and we traveled to see him every year.

I guess more importantly for the divorce, none of the Dr.'s, whatever they call it, think that it renders her unable to work or is likely to shorten her life. They do all think she should continue this treatment.

I don't really know what to think. pwBPD are often heavy consumers of health care, and stbx is definitely that, across the board. And she definitely "liked" having the cancer diagnosis. If you don't give any details and just tell people you were diagnosed with cancer, you get a lot of sympathy. And it makes a handy excuse for not doing things. I was heavily involved in her health and Dr.'s visits and such. I do think there is something real going on, and there is something wrong. I don't know what it is and I don't know how "bad" it really is and how much it's badness is amplified by the BPDness that accompanies it.

[mart555]

My thoughts exactly. This has been going on for ten years?

Sounds like my ex wife's medical condition. Specialist after specialist that came up with undefined diagnostics, knee braces, finger splints, asthma puffers, medications for all sorts of stuff, would have to sleep 12 hours a day, couldn't do much around the house...    Now thanks to the miracle of separation, she no longer needs any of that stuff (or maybe some medication).  I brought up the term "Munchausen syndrome" during a family visit with the family doctor (alone. while updating her on my  divorce ordeal) and she said "that's definitely a possibility"...  I fell in the trap for 15+ years.  And the more distant I was, the "sicker" she got..   

[formflier]

Still...how many jobs has she applied for/attempted?

How many disability applications?

Disability lawyers consulted?

Hmmm...So, there is no objective test of any kind...whatsoever, that "shows" or "proves" this cancer exists?

What about the "symptoms"?  Are those objectively provable?  I get it that the cause might not be..but are the effects provable?

How many years now has she been doing this really expensive treatment?  Has the treatment been varied or any attempt made to "wean her off" during that time?

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

In the long run, it might be worth a consultation (or two) at a facility such as M.D. Anderson or Sloan Kettering or one of the Mayo Clinics.

This needs to be resolved. It just doesn't sound "right."

If one of the premier cancer clinics in the world can't classify her as having cancer, perhaps there is an autoimmune condition at play -- who knows? Whatever it might be...you need to pin down what is going on before any commitment on your part to financially embroil yourself in undefined health issues.

How often did she use the health card when there was conflict in the relationship?

Munchausen's is most definitely a possibility...the ultimate Victim position.

(I have a friend who is wealthy and has supported his ex-wife for over 20 years because she has MS. She lives in his owned mansion in a country club community and will NEVER re-marry due to her overly generous alimony and housing arrangements. Their daughter is long gone to college. She goes to a local university medical center for interferon treatments every three weeks and maintains that she is unable to work. She hasn't worked since she moved in with him over 27 years ago.)

[I Am Redeemed]

What "treatment" is it, and how can the effectiveness of this treatment be measured when combined with alcohol and other medications...do I remember that your wife also has taken adderall?

[ForeverDad]

I work two jobs, deposit both paychecks into our joint account, and she spends every bit of it, or it is spent on the mortgage, her car, her bills, etc.

  Putting your paychecks into the joint account will of course get all the money spent.   Why not shift your paychecks to a personal account and then pay the bills from your account?  Then you dole out a reasonable but limited amount of spending money periodically into the joint account.  (Beware, if she has a credit card then she'll keep spending everything.  I hope your credit cards aren't joint accounts, they may be hard to close if she refuses to stop racking up charges.)

I did that, actually I was forced into that, by her own actions.  I had previously bought vehicles with funds from my retirement account.  Well, our marriage was crashing into the rocks and nearly over.  I bought a replacement vehicle and applied for a loan from my retirement again.  This time when I asked her to sign the required J&S disclaimer, that she recognized the loan impacted inheritances, she refused to sign.  Big reaction when I told the dealer that, of course.  So I went to my mortgage bank and got a loan there, at a much higher rate of course.  The bank's condition was that I start a checking account with them for automatic payment deductions.  So I decided to deposit my paychecks there rather than our joint account.  Oh did she rant and rage!  But I refused to retreat.  The marriage did implode a couple months later and we separated then divorced.  It would have been high conflict no matter how I tried to smooth over.  I look back and shifting to a personal account was for the best, the marriage was crashing anyway.

You feel she will start working after the divorce?  My 'feeling'?  She will then drag out the divorce as long as she can.  Based on past years, work is the last thing she wants to do.  And why should she, she gets to leech off you.

[mart555]

I look back and shifting to a personal account was for the best, the marriage was crashing anyway.

You feel she will start working after the divorce?  My 'feeling'?  She will then drag out the divorce as long as she can.  Based on past years, work is the last thing she wants to do.  And why should she, she gets to leech off you.

I confirm that the joint account can turn suuuuuuuuuuuuuuper messy when you divorce.  It was a nightmare.

I concur with ForeverDad about her wanting to work after the divorce.  It's unlikely.. so plan accordingly.

[formflier]

"high conflict" didn't show up until later in my marriage, but when it did the joint account and money agreements/budgets were a favorite place for FFw to be dysfunctional (hows that to say it politely)

Our money is pretty much completely separate now and any agreement is a "right now" thing so there is no time element for emotions to shift.

Oh the nuclear winter went on for a long time over this, but I believe it was one of the things that "stabilized" my relationship...certainly removed opportunities for conflict.

Anyway..long way of saying I'm surprised there is no "filter" on the money going to her and paychecks are instantly within her grasp as soon as deposited.  That being said, if trial is months away I wonder about the wisdom of a change this close to trial.  I'm sure L can guide you.

Have you raised this issue with your L?


Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

Still...how many jobs has she applied for/attempted?

How many disability applications?

Disability lawyers consulted?

Hmmm...So, there is no objective test of any kind...whatsoever, that "shows" or "proves" this cancer exists?

What about the "symptoms"?  Are those objectively provable?  I get it that the cause might not be..but are the effects provable?

How many years now has she been doing this really expensive treatment?  Has the treatment been varied or any attempt made to "wean her off" during that time?

Best,

FF

She claims to have applied for a lot of jobs. I have no way to confirm that. I would guess she has applied to some.

She has never applied or, to my knowledge, considered applying for SSDI.

There is not an objective way to confirm without a tumor or something to run pathology on.  There are lots of blood and urine tests to measure various levels of things. Some of hers were elevated and some weren't.

The symptoms she had were real. This cancer is associated with something called "carcinoid syndrome." The cancer doesn't always cause "syndrome," but it can. She had pretty much all the symptoms of carcinoid syndrome. The effects were provable.

She has been on this treatment for about 10 years now. She has stopped twice, and both times the symptoms came back within a month or so. Patients with this kind of cancer pretty much just stay on this treatment for the rest of their lives. It's one shot once a month.

I don't really care whether she wants to call it cancer or not. Maybe it is. Maybe it's not. Again, to me, the more important thing is what that diagnosis means for her even if it is cancer. And no doctor has ever said anything about it affecting her ability to work.

[stolencrumbs]

In the long run, it might be worth a consultation (or two) at a facility such as M.D. Anderson or Sloan Kettering or one of the Mayo Clinics.

This needs to be resolved. It just doesn't sound "right."

If one of the premier cancer clinics in the world can't classify her as having cancer, perhaps there is an autoimmune condition at play -- who knows? Whatever it might be...you need to pin down what is going on before any commitment on your part to financially embroil yourself in undefined health issues.

How often did she use the health card when there was conflict in the relationship?

Munchausen's is most definitely a possibility...the ultimate Victim position.

(I have a friend who is wealthy and has supported his ex-wife for over 20 years because she has MS. She lives in his owned mansion in a country club community and will NEVER re-marry due to her overly generous alimony and housing arrangements. Their daughter is long gone to college. She goes to a local university medical center for interferon treatments every three weeks and maintains that she is unable to work. She hasn't worked since she moved in with him over 27 years ago.)

We have been to the experts. One of her doctors is a neuroendocrine specialist at Vanderbilt's cancer center, and she has also seen doctors through the NIH as part of a clinical trial. There really are very few people in the world who know a whole lot about this particular cancer and associated conditions. It is rare and not particularly well-understood.

[GaGrl]

I did not realize you still had a joint account.

Here's my take on her current situation --

She has no motivation or incentive whatsoever to negotiate a settlement. Why should she?

She lives in the house, and you pay the mortgage and utilities.
She drives a car that you pay for, including maintenance and gas.
She receives expensive treatments for an undefined medical condition, and you pay the health insurance premiums.
She buys groceries and clothes and personal care (hair, nails) and entertainment and pays for them from a joint account.
And so on...

Nothing has changed for her since you left, and she has no expectation that anything will or should change, so why should she negotiate in good faith? She can go on like this for years.

The joint account situation could be your first opportunity to disrupt her status quo so that she better accepts the need to move toward negotiation or, at least, understands the implications of a trial.

You don't have to close the joint account. Just open an account in your name only, have your direct deposit go into the individual account, and transfer to the joint account only what your STBX can legitimately show she needs. In fact, if you took on paying the mortgage, utilities, etc. she would need only groceries and personal expenses.

Might this feel somewhat controlling? Yes. And it could be uncomfortable for you. She will react negatively. But taking on a position of more oversight and control of YOUR finances is appropriate in light of her inability to engage in meaningful negotiation leading toward an October trial.

[Cat Familiar]

I agree with all who’ve said you need to end your automatic deposit into the joint account ASAP. She still has the potential to run up your joint credit card account. My ex did that after lying that he had taken his name off the account—doesn’t work like that, but I believed him.

Another thing to consider is that lawyers are still people with values, even when on the opposing side. That you’d want to make an offer supporting her mental health, providing her medical insurance, and making sure she doesn’t fritter away her money foolishly, will likely engage her attorney to a degree as an ally.

[formflier]

Definitely chat with your L about the incentives and how that will work if nothing changes until divorce decree.

That will be a MASSIVE shock to her.

I would think on a human level that incremental is best...but perhaps they have other advice.

Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

I don't know what to do about the joint account. I had essentially budgeted for me to be able to live without any of it until mediation. Well, that's passed and I'm pretty much out of money that's not in the joint account. It will be a massive shock to her if that changes. As I said, she was shocked when the mediator informed her that I was not at all required to do what I have been doing. The mediator was shocked when I described the current setup. And really that's been the setup for years. I've definitely fed her sense of entitlement to all the money I earn. She is, post mediation, at least saying she recognizes that I need money that is my own, and that we can figure that out. I'm doubtful, but there is some recognition there that wasn't before.

Her very deepest-seated fear is to feel "poor," to lose her house, and to lose her car. She grew up very poor, going from place to place with her alcoholic mother. She never had any security and can't describe any childhood home or bedroom she ever had. So having a house that is hers is hugely important to her psychologically. The same goes for feeling like she has money to buy things. She really doesn't spend impulsively (at least not very often), and she has always held on tenaciously to any money in savings (which she did tell me in mediation that she has continued to do that. She has some money stashed away.) What I know about her is that "losing" her house and money she currently has access to without some plan for the future will be very, very bad. That may be what happens, and ultimately it's not my responsibility to fix this. On the worst outcome for her, she's going to have a nice chunk of change to start a new life. But if there's some way to ease that transition over the next year or so, I'm willing to do that.

Getting into the weeds a little bit, one current thought I have is this. We could tap into some of the equity in the house now, either by refinancing or a HELOC. It'll cost some money in fees, and we probably won't own the house long enough to really break even on that, but it could have some upfront benefits. We could take money and pay off her car. That would eliminate that payment every month and she could quit worrying about losing that. We could pay off debts that have accumulated over the last couple of years. That would eliminate monthly payments on that. That frees up a good bit of cash every month--probably enough that I could continue for a year or so to continue to support her and support myself. It would give her a year in her house with her basic needs taken care of to figure out what she is going to do. On the health care front, my L's suggestion is to delay the final decree. He has done this with other clients for 9-12 months. That would allow her to stay on my insurance while she figures out what to do. Then in a year, we sell the house, split the equity, and move on. Obviously this would all need to be in a well-crafted agreement with real deadlines and real consequences for not meeting them. 

Alimony will still be an issue, and I don't really see that being resolved, so we may end up in court to litigate that no matter what. She keeps telling me that alimony in futuro can be modified, so that if she does get a job, we can have the alimony changed. I'm not going for that. Period. But, rehabilitative alimony can also be modified. So maybe there's a way to shift the burden back to her. If we agree on X years of rehabilitative alimony that is conditioned on her being able to work, then the burden of modifying it if she ends up unable to work falls back to her. Maybe that can be conditioned on qualifying for SSDI or some other more objective measure of her ability to work. I really do believe she will work in the future, and/or will meet somebody else (sorry future dude). But maybe it's a salve of some sort if she knows she can petition for a change in alimony if her health really does deteroriate to the point that she is unable to work.

I don't know. Just things I'm thinking about, and you guys don't charge $250/hour to throw them out there.
 

[formflier]

So..how many people do you need to hear from that what you are doing is overly OVERLY generous and creating weird incentives.

Probably better to sell her car and buy something she can afford with cash left over...that will be cheaper to insure.

Listen..I would encourage you ask yourself as you read your threads..is this guy trying to put off the day of "change".

There was this hope that mediation would help...I think it opened your eyes and gave you knowledge. 

I gotta say the heloc idea scares me.  Because once all those debts and cars are paid off...why not charge them back up?

Much better to deal with home equity in a sale and let her sink or swim.

If you are out of money/budget.  Take what you need from the joint account and from now on deposit it elsewhere.

What is stopping her from applying for a job today?  What does she do with her time?

Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

So..how many people do you need to hear from that what you are doing is overly OVERLY generous and creating weird incentives.

Probably better to sell her car and buy something she can afford with cash left over...that will be cheaper to insure.

Listen..I would encourage you ask yourself as you read your threads..is this guy trying to put off the day of "change".

There was this hope that mediation would help...I think it opened your eyes and gave you knowledge. 

I gotta say the heloc idea scares me.  Because once all those debts and cars are paid off...why not charge them back up?

Much better to deal with home equity in a sale and let her sink or swim.

If you are out of money/budget.  Take what you need from the joint account and from now on deposit it elsewhere.

What is stopping her from applying for a job today?  What does she do with her time?

Best,

FF

I don't know. I don't really think I'm putting off change. I do realize I would be being overly generous. I'm fine with that, especially if more sacrifice in the next year can put me in a better place after that.

On the credit issue, none of our credit is joint. She's not on the mortgage, she's not on any of my credit cards, she's not on the car loan, etc.

There currently isn't money to "take." She wrote a check for a couple grand to her lawyer out of our joint account. I can survive another month. I've talked with my L about this and I'll figure something out if we don't come to some kind of agreement soon.

I don't know what she does. She does a lot of volunteer work in town. She claims she had an opportunity to convert one of her volunteer gigs into a part-time job with benefits, but that my OP kept her from getting the job. I'm 99% sure that's BS, but that's her claim. She also claims she applies to jobs "all the time." Pretty sure that's BS, too. In the current job market, if she wanted a job, she could have one. It might not be the job she wants, but she could get a job. 
 

[mart555]

So..how many people do you need to hear from that what you are doing is overly OVERLY generous and creating weird incentives.

Maybe it's something that comes with time?  At first my ex was playing nice and all, I thought that everything would be fair, things would go smooth and whatnot. Then I realized that what she considered "fair" wasn't the same as we had discussed and it went horribly wrong. 

Had she signed the deal I offered 2 years ago, she'd have the kids 50-50, alimony, spousal support, and a bunch of other stuff.  She wanted more and things went downhill.   It took me a few months to realize that the "PLEASE READstorm" that happened was actually a blessing. 

[stolencrumbs]

Maybe it's something that comes with time?  At first my ex was playing nice and all, I thought that everything would be fair, things would go smooth and whatnot. Then I realized that what she considered "fair" wasn't the same as we had discussed and it went horribly wrong. 

Had she signed the deal I offered 2 years ago, she'd have the kids 50-50, alimony, spousal support, and a bunch of other stuff.  She wanted more and things went downhill.   It took me a few months to realize that the "PLEASE READstorm" that happened was actually a blessing. 

My trajectory has been the opposite. She hasn't even pretended to play nice for a long time, and has never put anything remotely reasonable forward. We're now approaching the end of this and I think she is realizing she is likely to do much worse at trial and is at least making some noises about playing nice. I want to figure out some offer that I'm okay with that is likely better than what she will get from the judge, and give her the chance to take it.

[GaGrl]

Not only are you being "overly, overly generous and creating weird incentives," you are actively enabling and infantilizing her, and you are working against your own best interests.

Can we talk about values and goals? I hear that you think your current level and method of support will get you "someplace better" in a year, that by doing what you are doing in the way you are doing it is going to achieve your goal. Can you articulate that goal, and can you articulate the values you hold related to how you get there? Are these goals for you or for STBX? Is it your responsibility to set goals for STBX?

Because if part of your goal is to help your STBX achieve a stable and healthy life and financials, I will challenge that your current level of support is not the best way to help get her get there.

She has no need, no incentive to get a job if she expects you to support her forever in the way you have supported her in the past marriage and since the separation. If she doesn't get a job with medical benefits, you will be on the hook for her healthcare for...how long? If she doesn't get a job, what will she do when court-ordered alimony stops?

Other than the fact you don't talk to her and she no longer rages at you, there's really little in the dynamics and structure of your marriage that has changed, is there? So why should she expect anything different until she HAS to respond to changed circumstances.

When/if her funded life-style abruptly ends in an October trial, she will be significantly more at risk of panic and fear than if her lawyer has to prepare her for interim steps in response to your taking action on things like the joint account.


(Another question...do you know how much she is spending on alcohol each month? Is that an expenditure you want to enable?)

[mart555]

My trajectory has been the opposite. She hasn't even pretended to play nice for a long time, and has never put anything remotely reasonable forward.

She's likely playing nice now.. 

[babyducks]

a couple of random thoughts stolencrumbs

The symptoms she had were real. This cancer is associated with something called "carcinoid syndrome." The cancer doesn't always cause "syndrome," but it can. She had pretty much all the symptoms of carcinoid syndrome. The effects were provable.

I am familiar with carcinoid syndrome and what you are describing matches my understanding of the illness with the possible exception of the tumor(s) not progressing over such a long period of time.

I don't know what to do about the joint account. I had essentially budgeted for me to be able to live without any of it until mediation. Well, that's passed and I'm pretty much out of money that's not in the joint account.  

Let's keep it simple and not do a lot of theoretical reasoning.    What's keeping you from opening an account only in your name and depositing your largest paycheck in it?    Was it that you were holding out hope for mediation?   Or something else?

Her very deepest-seated fear is to feel "poor," to lose her house, and to lose her car. .../../.. She has some money stashed away. What I know about her is that "losing" her house and money she currently has access to without some plan for the future will be very, very bad. That may be what happens, and ultimately it's not my responsibility to fix this.

No its not.    its not you responsibility to fix this.  its not on you to avoid triggering her fears.     Or to make this easier for her at your expense.     GaGrl raises a point I can't disagree with enabling and infantilizing her is working against your own best interests.    and I am hoping to turn the focus from what's best for her to what is best for you.   I am not suggesting you be cruel or harsh.     I am suggesting you take control of your own life and finances.     if I may suggest, the pattern of 'not upsetting her' by doing what she wants,  and  avoiding triggering her fears is dysfunction.   your role in ending the dysfunction is to find reasonable steps to take to break the pattern.

'ducks

[stolencrumbs]

a couple of random thoughts stolencrumbs

I am familiar with carcinoid syndrome and what you are describing matches my understanding of the illness with the possible exception of the tumor(s) not progressing over such a long period of time.

Let's keep it simple and not do a lot of theoretical reasoning.    What's keeping you from opening an account only in your name and depositing your largest paycheck in it?    Was it that you were holding out hope for mediation?   Or something else?

No its not.    its not you responsibility to fix this.  its not on you to avoid triggering her fears.     Or to make this easier for her at your expense.     GaGrl raises a point I can't disagree with enabling and infantilizing her is working against your own best interests.    and I am hoping to turn the focus from what's best for her to what is best for you.   I am not suggesting you be cruel or harsh.     I am suggesting you take control of your own life and finances.     if I may suggest, the pattern of 'not upsetting her' by doing what she wants,  and  avoiding triggering her fears is dysfunction.   your role in ending the dysfunction is to find reasonable steps to take to break the pattern.

'ducks

It was partly holding out hope for mediation, and partly not wanting to deal with the fallout. I suspect that no matter how much I gave her, it wouldn't be enough and she'd rack up lawyer fees to try to get more. And just generally not wanting to deal with it if I didn't have to.

I do get that this is dysfunctional. I guess that's something that occurred to me at mediation. Any settlement is going to involve playing into the dysfunction. And I'm the one that knows really well how to do that. I do recognize that that's what it is. For me, the question is whether it's better for me to do that one last time in order to get this done. I don't know what all of her legal options are at this point, but I'm pretty sure she's going to use them to drag this out as long as possible. My L doesn't think the trial date will change, bit he also didn't think it would take this long to get there. I think he still underestimates her ability to f things up. I know she will spend an inordinate amount of money trying to get "experts" to back her claims about her health. I can imagine her firing her lawyer if he doesn't want to play along. She will throw every bit of real or imagined mud at me. I can imagine her getting really nitpicky about interrogatories and documents I've provided. Her L has already threatened a motion to compel because I didn't provide a full five years worth of itemized account information about my ID card that I use to buy lunch. Who knows what else they will decide is "deficient," and that they need in order to go to trial. Just generally, I think she will pull out all the stops to make this as long and as expensive as possible if we don't come to an agreement. I think I would probably still be better off financially at the end of it, but it will be hard to get there and I am so tired of all of this and really want some kind of resolution without months and months of more lawyers, time, and money.

[babyducks]

I do get that this is dysfunctional. I guess that's something that occurred to me at mediation. Any settlement is going to involve playing into the dysfunction. And I'm the one that knows really well how to do that. I do recognize that that's what it is.

Hmmmm.    I am not sure I see your point here.   And I am not sure I agree that playing into the dysfunction is best for you.

Can you reframe that for us?

[formflier]

  I want to figure out some offer that I'm okay with that is likely better than what she will get from the judge, and give her the chance to take it.

I'm curious to understand this...more.  Why cut her a better deal that what the law provides?

What part of her response to your previous generosity..leads you to believe their will be a positive outcome for this.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Wasn't mediation and all the provisions you continued to make for her "one more time"?

And she rejected that..right?

Switching gears.

So..just to be clear, you own the car and you are on the car note..right?

Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

Hmmmm.    I am not sure I see your point here.   And I am not sure I agree that playing into the dysfunction is best for you.

Can you reframe that for us?

I guess that if we are going to avoid trial, I am going to have to play along with how she wants to do things. She's not going to agree to anything sitting in a lawyer's office. And I'm going to have to be creative with an agreement that caters to at least some of what she wants. And these things are mostly based on feelings, not facts. She needs to feel a certain way about how all of this goes. And if there's going to be a settlement, I'm going to have to play that game.

If we could actually reach an agreement and have this done and in writing, I think that might be worth it. To avoid trial and all that's going to come along with getting to that.

[stolencrumbs]

I'm curious to understand this...more.  Why cut her a better deal that what the law provides?

What part of her response to your previous generosity..leads you to believe their will be a positive outcome for this.

Best,

FF

I guess to avoid all that I think will come with getting to trial. That's the reason for offering a better deal.

And I think the prospect of court might change what she does. I don't think she wants that for a variety of reasons. But if she feels "bullied", she will continue on to court and raise as much hell as she can along the way.

And yes, the car is in my name only, though it is marital property.

[Cat Familiar]

So you’re going to negotiate against your best interests, offer her an over generous settlement, then be prepared to give even more?

Isn’t this what you’ve done the last several years?

We tell people here to look at their own part of the dysfunction. I agree with GaGrl that you are infantalizing her. In addition, you are setting up circumstances where you will be involved in her life on an ongoing basis.

How is that any different than what you’ve been doing for years?

Do you want a clean break where you can meet someone who is emotionally healthy? Or if not, just to be able to live your life without interference from her?

I’d ponder what are the strings that keep you tied to her.

[GaGrl]

So you will continue to pour your funds into a joint checking account, knowing she is paying her lawyer from that very account, as she attempts to delay and stymie efforts toward a settlement and run up more fees?

Ummm...no.

You are paying for your own demise.

If you want to see a true change in her attitude toward settlement, move your paychecks to a new account, take control of accounts and property in your name, let her have a massive extinction burst that you don't have to listen to, then WAIT while she sits with the offer you put on the table in mediation.

[Couper]

This may seem trivial given all the other things currently on your plate, but you need to decide where that car is going to go and get the right name on the paperwork.  Money issues aside, if you give her the car but your name remains on the title and she crashes into something or, God forbid, someone -- the lawyers come after a: who has the money, and can come after b: whose name is on the title.  You don't have to have your hands on the wheel to open yourself to liability.  Having your name attached to assets that you do not control opens you to risk.  Just food for thought going forward so that you don't get blindsided by any ugly surprises later. 

I'm sorry to read of all your troubles and hope you start getting them reigned in soon.

[ForeverDad]

You need a sit-down with your lawyer and figure out where you can 'downsize' her style of living with the court viewing it as reasonable and not retaliatory.  You literally cannot continue supporting (pampering) her like a princess.

For example, probably the house was roomy for the both of you, with just her there it's probably more than she "needs".  The divorce will be a good reason to sell it and let her have that portion of equity the court decides is appropriate and then she can buy her own *practical* downsized home, condo or apartment.  The maintenance and real estate taxes would be lower too.

Her having her own residence, whether rented or owned, may also provide a greater separation for you from your past history together and reduce your inclination to feel obligated in the future.

Ponder too, she says she still has savings but you're scrimping everywhere possible to survive living on crumbs so she can live her lifestyle.  You can't keep Gifting.  She has to learn frugality too and you haven't helped her learn that.

In my circumstances I need another car.  I was looking at the different models pondering my needs versus wants.  The difference between hybrids seemed minor but while the next step up is still a hybrid, it drives on battery for 50 miles rather than a few miles coasting.  However, it's about 50% more expensive and I can't see me willing to pay the premium.  That's the perspective you need for her to accept.

[babyducks]

divorce by its nature is a very adversarial process.   I do not believe there is any way through it which doesn't entail loss, upset and anger.    trying to protect her from the natural consequences of her behavior is not appropriate.

I've read this thread a couple of times, and while there are a bunch of moving parts I think I would summarize like this.

• 100% of the income from both your jobs go to supporting her
• you've been surviving on money from a previous settlement

• the money from the previous settlement has run out
• her best offer in mediation was a 90/10 split of income and benefits for life

• your first solution was to take a loan on the house to harvest equity
• the situation is definitely not sustainable as there is a hard stop at the trail date which is likely October

I am going to have to play along with how she wants to do things.

I am going to disagree with this line of thinking.   Not only do I believe you don't have to play along,  I think its a dangerous idea to play along.

Isn’t this what you’ve done the last several years?

We tell people here to look at their own part of the dysfunction.

I find myself wondering the same thing Cat is.    For a long time your operated under the assumption that if you didn't answer your wife's demanding texts and messages she would burn the house down.    and for a long time you operated under the assumption that if you filed for divorce your wife would suicide.    and for a long time you operated under the assumption that your wife is too fragile to  function in life without your caregiving.   and now the assumption seems to be that if this reaches trial she will melt down in spectacular fashion and catastrophe will result.      What if your assumptions are wrong?   what if your assumptions are partially correctly but leading you to make poor choices?

I'm pretty sure you have run into Beck's cognitive distortions,  specifically how they are unhelpful thinking patterns.    Magnification & minimization and catastrophizing come to mind right now.   The key to overcoming catastrophizing is making a distinction between something being significantly unpleasant and it being a catastrophe.    Divorce is significantly unpleasant.   Divorce from a high conflict personality is significantly unpleasant.    that does not mean it has to be avoided at all costs.    trying to keep it from being unpleasant isn't a good investment of your time or energy.    Magnification and minimization are described as the ‘binocular trick’ because of the way that errors, fears, or imperfections are exaggerated while strengths and achievements are made to seem small and unimportant.  this unhelpful thinking style is an involuntary habit.     which has gone on for quite some time and will be hard to break.

You need a sit-down with your lawyer and figure out where you can 'downsize' her style of living with the court viewing it as reasonable and not retaliatory.  

I think FD is right,  is that something you are actively considering?

my two cents
'ducks

[formflier]

So was the car purchased new?  How many more years is there on the note?

Are we talking the car is worth $5k, $15k or $50k?  (as it sits right now)

Same question with rough purchase price of the car.

There may or may not be an illustration/idea coming out of this.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I guess to avoid all that I think will come with getting to trial. That's the reason for offering a better deal.

What do you think will come?

This is the part that puzzles me..has me convinced I'm missing something.

It seems like all the lawyers involved (including hers if I remember right) seem to acknowledge that there is a "formula" she will get a trial.

Yet...almost all of your efforts and ideas seem to be around "giving" her something considerably bigger than that..in the hopes of not getting a smaller (less costly) decision from the judge.

Is that about right?

Help me out here...

Best,

FF

[worriedStepmom]

Please take this advice.  GaGrl is right.

So you will continue to pour your funds into a joint checking account, knowing she is paying her lawyer from that very account, as she attempts to delay and stymie efforts toward a settlement and run up more fees?

Ummm...no.

You are paying for your own demise.

If you want to see a true change in her attitude toward settlement, move your paychecks to a new account, take control of accounts and property in your name, let her have a massive extinction burst that you don't have to listen to, then WAIT while she sits with the offer you put on the table in mediation.

NOTHING is going to change if you continue to do what you are doing.  Nothing.  And she will delay as long as possible, using your money.

There is nothing wrong or mean with taking control of your money.  Now is the time to start separating everything - the cell phone bills, car insurance, bank accounts, etc.  You won't leave her broke, but neither should YOU be broke.  She has to learn how to take care of herself and that is not your responsibility to fix.  That is a consequence of divorce, and divorce is a consequence of her being unwilling to manage her emotions and reactions.

[GaGrl]

What is it about your STBX dealing with the consequences of her years of behaviors that is so painful to you or difficult for you?

Right now, you are putting yourself in negative financial straits, twisting yourself into awkward legal positions, doing anything you can do to keep her from experiencing natural consequences.

You cannot feel her emotions for her. She is responsible for her actions and decisions, and she must feel her own emotions.

[stolencrumbs]

I appreciate the responses here. I'm not sure this will respond to everything but some thoughts that maybe y'all can help parse.

First, our 17-year-old dog did pass on Sunday. Stbx emailed on Sunday morning and said he wasn't able to stand up on his own. I went over to the house, she met me outside with the dog, and we went to the vet (an hour away). We were there for a couple of hours, but ultimately she decided it was best to euthanize him then, and we did. We drove back, she asked if I wanted to see our other dog for a minute, she brought her outside, I stayed for about 10 minutes outside, then left. All-in-all, it went well. She did not attempt to talk about anything other than the dog and did not press me to stay or do anything once we got back. And I think the dog was happy to see me, and I was glad to be able to be with him when he passed.

On the rest, I don't *think* I am reluctant to cut strings or that I am trying to protect her from "natural" consequences. I think the natural consequence is divorce. That's happening. The legal apparatus that surrounds that doesn't seem particularly natural to me, and I don't think what either of us may be legally entitled to necessarily captures what is fair or right. Divorce sucks. I don't think there's any way around that. But I would like to carry myself through it in a certain way, and that, for me, involves trying to be generous and fair. There are things that I believe are relevant and important factors when trying to figure out what is fair.
(1) I don't really care about money. I can live really cheaply and be quite happy, and at this point, everything I own can fit in my truck. So in the immediate term, giving more to her than the court would order doesn't really seem like much of a sacrifice. I do care about protecting my medium and long-term interests, mainly because I want to be able to provide for someone in the future, and for a possible future family. But that isn't happening next year, so giving more for a year or so doesn't seem particularly unfair to me right now.
(2) We did decide together to move here six years ago in part so that she did not have to work. Obviously, things change. I don't think that decision means I should support her forever. But we didn't make that decision thinking we would be divorced in six years. She had a good career and could've advanced in it over the last six years. I think that matters and I do think I have an obligation to help her financially for some period of time.
(3) We partly got married when we did because of her health. I had better insurance at the time, and she had just been diagnosed with cancer. We got married a week after the diagnosis and had her on my insurance before her first treatment. So health insurance wasn't just a secondary benefit of getting married. It was one of the primary reasons we got married when we did. Again, I don't think this means I have to pay for her health insurance forever, but I do think it makes the insurance situation particularly important to figure out.

In general, I would like for her to have her car. I would like for her to be able to live in the house for some period of time. And I am willing to provide some support for some period of time. I am okay with all of that, and something along those lines seems fair to me. And there are ways to make it financially feasible. Again, I most want to protect my medium and long-term financial interests. I don't actually think she will go for that, because she also wants to protect her medium and long-term interests, and she thinks the way to do that is to get support from me forever. I'm not agreeing to that and I don't think the court is going to order that. I don't know if she realizes that or not. If she does, I think we can figure something out that we are both okay with.

What I most want is for the details of the divorce to be decided. I want it to be done, in writing, signed off on, done. In addition to what I think is fair, there are all kinds of practical reasons to try to get some kind of settlement. As I've said, I think preparing for trial will be ugly and expensive. I don't really want to rehash the last five years of my life. I don't want to sit in a deposition where I'm painted to be a monster and my experience is completely minimized. I don't want to fight about whether her health concerns are overblown. I just don't want to go through that. And I don't want her to go through that. It just sucks for everyone involved. It's also not great timing. The trial is in October. I am teaching six classes and running a program with 500 students who need various levels of support and advising. And we're all coming back from a year of weirdness. I don't really want to be dealing with the preparation and trial during that. And I do worry about what stbx will do and how she will react before and after the trial. I have been wrong about what she might do, but I haven't been *that* wrong. There is a 4x4 charred section of hardwood floors in the house from a fire she lit. She did end up in the hospital after overdosing on propranolol.

In short, I value going through this in a certain way. Thus far, I'm okay with how I've approached things. I think I have been fair and generous while still protecting myself in a lot of ways. I want to continue to do that until we cross the Rubicon. I will fight for my long-term future, but I am okay with giving more financially in the short term to help her transition. I don't know if that's infantilizing her. It is what she says she wants. I am okay with trying to give her what she says she wants in the short term in order to get something done and avoid a trial. I think there are about two weeks left to figure something out before this thing shifts to trial mode. 

[formflier]

Should you care about money?

Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

Should you care about money?

Best,

FF

I don't think anymore than I do now. I care about it insofar as it enables me to help other people I care about or may care about in the future. That does matter to me. I just don't care much about it for my own personal lifestyle.

[worriedStepmom]

I'm very sorry about your dog.  I'm glad you were able to grieve together. 

I think you are likely being too optimistic in thinking that your actions now will avoid a trial, but if you want the stress and fees of another round of mediation in the meantime, that is your call.

[GaGrl]

I think your method of dividing settlement issues into short-term vs. medium/long-term can help you move forward. Maybe you can chart it out...

Short-Term =
-- Car
-- Housing for up to ? months while house is prepped for sale; house goes on market no later than X date.
-- Support for housing expenses pending sale
-- Continued health insurance coverage at 100%

Medium-Term =
-- Division of equity upon sale of house (terms of division?)
-- Rehabilitative alimony for ? years/months with focus on obtaining employment that provides medical benefits
-- Contribution toward health insurance coverage (not 100%) until employed or X date

Long-Term =
-- No long-term arrangements.

Infantilizing her would continue if you agreed to alimony in futuro, taking responsibility for her health insurance coverage, or otherwise tied yourself to financing her current lifestyle with no defined mid-term end in sight.

[formflier]

I don't think anymore than I do now. I care about it insofar as it enables me to help other people I care about or may care about in the future. That does matter to me. I just don't care much about it for my own personal lifestyle.

In what ways has your money and your decision to let her have unrestricted access to your money helped your wife?  How sure are you about that?

In what ways has your money and your decision to let her have unrestricted access to your money not helped your wife?  How sure are you about that?


Best,

FF

[formflier]

Hey..worthy of a separate post. 

So sorry about your dog.  It's incredible how much a part of our lives they become. 

I hope you can spend time with good memories of those 17 years.

Best,

FF

[Goosey]

Stolen crumbs, your doing good! Keep on keeping on and you’ll come out the other side. I’m divorced as of today. Bit stunned. And I feel like I should feel all the feelings I have had for years. (We know em, no need to list em), just feel relieved. Your next up on the next step!  

[stolencrumbs]

I think your method of dividing settlement issues into short-term vs. medium/long-term can help you move forward. Maybe you can chart it out...

Short-Term =
-- Car
-- Housing for up to ? months while house is prepped for sale; house goes on market no later than X date.
-- Support for housing expenses pending sale
-- Continued health insurance coverage at 100%

Medium-Term =
-- Division of equity upon sale of house (terms of division?)
-- Rehabilitative alimony for ? years/months with focus on obtaining employment that provides medical benefits
-- Contribution toward health insurance coverage (not 100%) until employed or X date

Long-Term =
-- No long-term arrangements.

Infantilizing her would continue if you agreed to alimony in futuro, taking responsibility for her health insurance coverage, or otherwise tied yourself to financing her current lifestyle with no defined mid-term end in sight.

Yes, this is pretty much how I'm thinking about things. I haven't laid it out like that, and that's helpful. I think we could agree on the short and medium-term. The issue will be over the long term.

[stolencrumbs]

Stolen crumbs, your doing good! Keep on keeping on and you’ll come out the other side. I’m divorced as of today. Bit stunned. And I feel like I should feel all the feelings I have had for years. (We know em, no need to list em), just feel relieved. Your next up on the next step!  

Thanks, Goosey. I'm definitely looking forward to that next step.

[ForeverDad]

(1) I don't really care about money. I can live really cheaply and be quite happy... So in the immediate term, giving more to her than the court would order doesn't really seem like much of a sacrifice. I do care about protecting my medium and long-term interests, mainly because I want to be able to provide for someone in the future, and for a possible future family...

What if you lose your income a few months from now in a recession or more lockdowns?  Despite you being in such a Gifting mood, wouldn't it be wise to predicate excess generosity upon whether you have sufficient future income?

It has been commented here that it is much better to be obligated to pay less and give yourself room to gift additional as your circumstances allow, rather than be obligated to pay much but circumstances are bad.

[Cat Familiar]

At the risk of saying something that might offend, I want to ask if your excessive generosity might be a shelter against feelings of guilt over initiating the divorce?

[I Am Redeemed]

At the risk of saying something that might offend, I want to ask if your excessive generosity might be a shelter against feelings of guilt over initiating the divorce?

I have been wondering the same. Also at the risk of offense, I think your reasons for why you want to be generous have some truths, but are ultimately based on justifying the root motivating factor: divorce is stressful, you have a lot on your plate, and you want it done to relieve yourself of the burden of going through it.

[GaGrl]

And...

...that you come out of the divorce looking like the White Knight that you've played throughout the relationship.

[stolencrumbs]

Hmm. No offense taken.

At the risk of saying something that might offend, I want to ask if your excessive generosity might be a shelter against feelings of guilt over initiating the divorce?

I don't *think* so. I don't really see any settlement I am willing to accept as being excessively generous, though that isn't the main point here. I don't feel a lot of guilt anymore over initiating the divorce. I think it was absolutely the right thing to do. I do think I will feel guilty if, in three months, we are ordered to sell the house, she loses her health insurance, and has to rely on my generosity to pay for her car or other expenses not covered by whatever alimony she gets. I will feel bad about that.

I have been wondering the same. Also at the risk of offense, I think your reasons for why you want to be generous have some truths, but are ultimately based on justifying the root motivating factor: divorce is stressful, you have a lot on your plate, and you want it done to relieve yourself of the burden of going through it.

Yes, this is absolutely a motivating factor. I want it done. I don't want it dragging into the fall. I don't want to devote more mental space to navigating a trial and whatever comes after that.

...that you come out of the divorce looking like the White Knight that you've played throughout the relationship.

Idk. Maybe. I don't think I have much of a need for this, and I'm not sure who would view me that way anyway. I think it is probably a continuation of a long-standing habit of not acknowledging or asserting my own needs/wants, and I guess I've decided that I'm fine with that for some defined period of time into the future.

[formflier]

So...there are several important points that I think (hope) are about to connect.

Let's take it at face value that you have no need to be overly generous/white knight (whatever you call it).

So then it's not about you..it's about her.  As in you aren't concerned about your feelings instead you are more about wanting "what's best for her".    (are we on the same page so far?)

Then consider this quote

  I do think I will feel guilty if, in three months, we are ordered to sell the house, she loses her health insurance, and has to rely on my generosity to pay for her car or other expenses not covered by whatever alimony she gets. I will feel bad about that.

And consider other comments about "infantalizing" her.  (Which I will define as treating an capable adult as less than an adult by doing things for them and TRAINING them to expect others to do things for them...THAT THEY ARE CAPABLE OF DOING THEMSELVES AND SHOULD DO THEMSELVES.

Do you get the concept of "infantalizing"?

Do you see how others can take your way of relating to your wife as "infantalizing"?

Do you agree with that view?

There are some follow up questions..but this is so critically important that I hope we can dwell on these three questions a bit.

Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

So...there are several important points that I think (hope) are about to connect.

Let's take it at face value that you have no need to be overly generous/white knight (whatever you call it).

So then it's not about you..it's about her.  As in you aren't concerned about your feelings instead you are more about wanting "what's best for her".    (are we on the same page so far?)

Then consider this quote

And consider other comments about "infantalizing" her.  (Which I will define as treating an capable adult as less than an adult by doing things for them and TRAINING them to expect others to do things for them...THAT THEY ARE CAPABLE OF DOING THEMSELVES AND SHOULD DO THEMSELVES.

Do you get the concept of "infantalizing"?

Do you see how others can take your way of relating to your wife as "infantalizing"?

Do you agree with that view?

There are some follow up questions..but this is so critically important that I hope we can dwell on these three questions a bit.

Best,

FF

I don't think we're quite on the same page. I guess I do want what is best for her, but I am not attempting to substitute my judgment of what is best for her for her own. I know what she tells me she needs/wants. To the extent that I can, without sacrificing things that really matter to me, I am willing to try to give her that. I don't know if that is what is "best" for her. She is an adult. She can articulate what she wants or needs, and I can decide what I am willing to do with respect to helping her achieve what it is she wants.

And I think this is related to a bigger disagreement that I suspect we are not going to agree on. I would reject your definition of "infantilizing." I don't have any interest in attempting to train another adult human being. That seems like infantilizing. We train children. We know better and we set up systems to guide their behavior towards the outcomes we want. I don't want to look at and treat another adult that way, and I don't think I do.

But generally, yes, I get what infantilizing is. I guess I see how others could think that. But no, I don't agree.

[GaGrl]

I don't think you are purposely trying to infanticize your wife, but I see the result of years of your providing for all of her needs, wants, and demands as having resulted in doing so. She is now so accustomed to not working, not taking care of her own financial obligations (house, car, insurance), tapping into an account to which she does not contribute, expecting you to provide all house maintenance -- that she has now reached a level of entitlement that leads to her expecting you will do this forever (alimony in futuro).

Again, it is highly unlikely she will get the alimony she is demanding. And it is highly likely the judge will direct that the house be sold and that finances be separated. At that point, a woman who hasn't had to function for a number of years will find herself forced to function.

Continuing to over-function for her now is doing her no favors for later.

In your case, over-functioning and assuming she is incapable of taking care of herself has, even if not intended, infantilized her. And if you think she is capable of taking care of herself, let her start now.

[formflier]

To the extent that I can, without sacrificing things that really matter to me, I am willing to try to give her that.  

This is the phrase I hope you can focus on...I suspect it reveals a lot about your "thinking" or "process"...basically the way the "gears turn" in there and produce the "therefore I will do x"

So..I think this is reality for you because you could give her access and let her spend down the money until there just isn't anymore (general summation of your financial situation)...because you could..you did.

What I (and I believe others) are trying to get you to consider is "should" you do (fill in the blank).

If I do (blank) for my wife for several years will she be more or less resilient?

I'll have to think on the infantalizing thing for a bit, maybe pick it up later.  Not sure we have same word meanings.

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

FF, I agree that we are not on the same page with the definition of "infantilizing."

 "Enabling" seems too passive.

Is there a concept of term somewhere between?

Whatever it is, it is not a healthy or good approach right now, in this divorce action.

[formflier]

Maybe "regression".

Here is a question.  Stolencrumbs, is your stbex more or less capable of doing things on her own now, compared to several years ago?

Maybe "providing for herself" should be substituted for "doing things".

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I’ll look at this situation from a different perspective. When I got together with my current husband, he was in the midst of a divorce from a woman who sounds much like your wife, minus the property damage and non-self-supporting status.

He gave her everything she wanted and in doing so, incurred a huge financial loss, leading to not having much to show for many years in the workforce as an attorney. Not a great marriage prospect for a middle aged guy!

However, I’d known him through a group of friends for a long time and knew he was a good guy. However, there were questions…

I wondered about his attachment to the ex, why he let her have the very expensive house without a fight, why he walked away with virtually nothing. Why he couldn’t assert himself. Why I was choosing someone with a much smaller net worth at this point in my life, after divorcing a guy who couldn’t support himself.

Some years down the road his fortunes changed and he inherited a huge, unexpected sum of money, which has made life immeasurably easier.

Just thought I’d give an outsider’s perspective of how this might appear to the next woman in your life.

[I Am Redeemed]

. I think it is probably a continuation of a long-standing habit of not acknowledging or asserting my own needs/wants, and I guess I've decided that I'm fine with that for some defined period of time into the future.

I think this is exactly what it is.

What is the defined period? How will you begin to advocate for yourself when this defined period is over?

[Cat Familiar]

Perhaps it’s time for both you and your wife to learn new strategies to help you navigate in the new world you’re both entering into.