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Author Topic: In need of a little outside perspective and a reality check  (Read 408 times)
lostinvt

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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 13


« on: April 09, 2021, 09:35:35 AM »

Brief summary is that I have been married to my wife for 18 years.  Came to the realization about 6 months ago that she at least has some BPD traits and I have a lot of codependency traits, and our relationship is very unhealthy.  I feel there is a lot of verbal abuse and coercive control.  Her "rage" is usually crying and victimization.  I'm working very hard to heal my wounds, self reflect, be more confident, set boundaries, be honest and open, ask for what I need (not even to the point of 'wants' yet).  But we are in a different stage now where she feels me pulling away, and blames me for leaving a hole in her and not replacing it with anything else.  I continually try to re-assure her, and validate her experience.  Tell her I love her, I understand she feels that way, that I don't mean to hurt her, that I'm doing the best I can.  I talk about my struggles, but never what I feel she is likely dealing with or 'should' do.  That's her business, trying to let her be and grow.  We just started our second therapist (first was not very helpful and lasted 5 sessions).  I am in therapy and working hard on myself.  She is also in therapy, but I don't think she's working on any of this, or even aware really.

So some of what I struggle with is identifying exactly what is going on in our "conversations" (as she tells me they are not fights or arguments).  What I could do better, if I'm doing the right thing by her (and me), identifying where I get defensive, or over explain.  I'm trying very hard to be conscious of not JADEing and change my ways and catch myself frequently. 

I trust everyone here to really give an honest assessment of things, and I'm open to all the criticism.  I just want to do the best I can, and learn from my mistakes.

So we had a long discussion the night before about all this.  About what is she supposed to do with all this that "I'm putting her through".  And we left it where I told her I have to do this, I have to grow and learn, it's not a choice.  But I'm doing the best I can to be considerate, listen to her perspective, adjust, be there for her, and love her.  And then I told her I needed to be done for the evening (was going on for 3+ hours).  The following morning she was quiet and kind of stewing, but I chose to show some love and asked if I could give her a hug.  Tried to give her a good firm extended hug to which she kind of halfheartedly reciprocated.  I gave her a soft kiss and said I love you, and then went about my kitchen duties.  A few minutes later...

BDP: I feel like you're going to be upset with me b/c I didn't hug you hard enough or I didn't say something, or whatever, and I'm like... now I'm standing here and I'm like... flipping out.
Me: I... I wanted to hug you.  I understand you're upset.  I didn't give a second thought to that.
BPD: Ok.  You have before.
Me: I'm just telling you.
BDP: Well, ok.  you're telling me in a way that's making me feel like I'm crazy for thinking that.
Me: I said like 5 words...
BDP: What?
Me: I said like 5 words. I said "I wasn't thinking that", to re-assure you.  I said I know you're upset.  so I'm not criticizing, I'm not trying to make you feel anything... I... I'm just telling you how I felt.  What I was trying to do... That's all.
BDP: I was trying to do the same thing... and i think that I ended up coming out of it feeling more about what you felt, than... reassurance.
Me: ok.  would you like me to have said it was fine and leave it at that?
BDP: No, that seems very passive.
Me: ok.  what would you have preferred me to say?  That I  hear you and leave it at that?
BDP: No.  Very clearly.  Like... I'm not upset, I understand you're upset, everything is fine.
Me: Ok, I'll try to do that.
BDP: It gets muddled when you add...
Me: When I explain myself... I'm sorry.

I consider this to be mostly a success.  I didn't have to leave out of frustration, it was over in about 5 minutes, she did not leave crying or more pissed off than she started, and I don't feel like I gave up too much of myself.  I spoke calmly and slowly, and with care the whole time.

But her behavior is BPDish, right?  It's a little much?

Did I respond in a way to make her feel crazy?

I know I started to over explain a few times.  Maybe got a tiny tiny bit defensive?  And I'll take that as a lesson.
But a little outside perspective would really go a long way for me.

Thank you in advance to all the amazing people here.  I truly would not have made the progress I have, or have much hope and understanding without all you wonderful souls.
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Mr. Kelly
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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Broken up
Posts: 217


« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2021, 10:54:59 AM »

Hey there…

I am new on here, so I don’t have a huge well of resources… But like you, I’ve been doing tons of research and experimenting, since I have been having difficulties with my GF for the past year and a half of our relationship. Right now, we are seemingly “off“. That seems to change from week to week and month to month.

I think your partner is lucky to have someone like you, who is willing to try to understand what her needs are, and will try to implement them in the way that you are. I think you are very thoughtful and resourceful, and you are able to see and reflect upon how things went and how they might’ve been done differently.

I think you have done mostly all that you can do.

If I had one observation, it would be that perhaps you might have benefited from redirecting the reported conversation very quickly, when it started to become analytical on both of your parts.

If you haven’t encountered this, redirecting can be a very useful strategy… If you notice that she is starting to overthink something, or get a little bit anxious about something, a very important tool is to attempt to draw the conversation toward something completely different, maybe something that is universally positive, that may even benefit her.

For example, as she started to become a little anxious in that conversation that you provided, you could end the dialogue with one or two sentences regarding what your interest was for that hug, and then may be redirect by saying… “Would you like me to make you some breakfast?“ Or “would you like to go out for a walk?”

I have learned about this strategy recently, and I tried it twice with my girlfriend with amazing results. If you can redirect the conversation into something positive that may benefit her, it tends to steer the BPD thinking toward something less anxious, and disengage the tenseness . I’ve had it work like a charm, although I’m not always good at it. It does require a little bit of spontaneity and outside the box thinking, at critical times when our partners are struggling or splitting.  That’s no easy task, and I believe simply requires practice.

Like you, I tend to analyze the situation, often try to explain to my partner what I meant, or what I did, or what she is saying just isn’t true. I think it’s generally acknowledged around here that this strategy increases anxiety, because then our partners start to think that we must have some guilt if we are trying to convince them otherwise.

Keep us posted, and let us know how things are going, OK?
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lostinvt

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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 13


« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2021, 07:05:01 AM »

@MrKelly Thank you very much.  I appreciate the feedback.  I've been in this for 18 years, blindly following along, numbing myself along the way to keep the peace, to the point of being  pretty much isolated with her outside of my (all remote) job. I see how her perception of things is so very different than my own, down to words said (actually not), or having a discussion we did not, and I often wonder if my own perception is so skewed that I too am being abuse/uncaring/hurtful, etc...   Even repeating to my therapist and with his reassurance, I still question it sometimes, thinking I'm just relaying my interpretation, which is not quite what happened.

Excerpt
If you haven’t encountered this, redirecting can be a very useful strategy… If you notice that she is starting to overthink something, or get a little bit anxious about something, a very important tool is to attempt to draw the conversation toward something completely different, maybe something that is universally positive, that may even benefit her.

Thank you for the suggestion.   I tried this a few times, but in my case is always ends up with her stewing for a few hours before coming to me and laying into me that I shut her down and wouldn't let her talk.  So I have stopped trying.  Perhaps I need to be more subtle or keep it somewhat related.  Or find a way that is more validating before redirecting.  I'll put some thought into that and see what I can come up with.

I also feel bad sometimes about all this.  That I'm working so hard to lessen the conflict and get by while I figure out my own head, hoping things will improve... Just to get a point in the future where I have I grown and figured out enough to be confident in myself and be at point with much less conflict, only to realize that what we have grown into is just another version of a marriage that still just doesn't work for me.  Yeah the conflict may be less, she may feel more validated, but I'm still left with nothing in the end.  So I guess I'm just trying to use it all as a learning experience and grow myself. And I hope that she'll have some realizations and put some effort into working on herself.

Thank you again, and best of luck with your own situation (I've read your other threads).  It's so hard.  Take care.

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Skip
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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 8817


« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2021, 07:44:28 AM »

Posting discussions is really helpful tool for coaching.

            BDP: I feel like you're going to be upset with me b/c I didn't hug you hard enough or I didn't say something, or whatever, and I'm like... now I'm standing here and I'm like... flipping out.
Me: I... I wanted to hug you.  I understand you're upset.  I didn't give a second thought to that.
BPD: Ok.  You have before.
Me: I'm just telling you.
BDP: Well, ok.  you're telling me in a way that's making me feel like I'm crazy for thinking that.

Me: I said like 5 words...
BDP: What?
Me: I said like 5 words. I said "I wasn't thinking that", to re-assure you.  I said I know you're upset.  so I'm not criticizing, I'm not trying to make you feel anything... I... I'm just telling you how I felt.  What I was trying to do... That's all.
BDP: I was trying to do the same thing... and i think that I ended up coming out of it feeling more about what you felt, than... reassurance.
Me: ok.  would you like me to have said it was fine and leave it at that?
BDP: No, that seems very passive.

Me: ok.  what would you have preferred me to say?.
That I  hear you and leave it at that?
BDP: No.
  Very clearly. Like... I'm not upset, I understand you're upset, everything is fine.
Me: Ok
, I'll try to do that.
BDP: It gets muddled when you add...
Me: When I explain myself... I'm sorry.

Think "psychologically" but don't speak "psychologically" (the gray text above didn't help). It will feel more authentic if you do and it will be shift the perception from you "trying to please" (weak) to you "being pleasurable" (admirable).

"What would you have preferred me to say?" would have been even more powerful as "What would you have said if the situation was reversed" and "I like that".

See the difference?
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Skip
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« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2021, 07:58:03 AM »

If I had one observation, it would be that perhaps you might have benefited from redirecting the reported conversation very quickly, when it started to become analytical on both of your parts.

This is a really helpful suggestion/great insight. Thanks.
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lostinvt

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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 13


« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2021, 08:49:25 AM »

Excerpt
Think "psychologically" but don't speak "psychologically" (the gray text above didn't help). It will feel more authentic if you do and it will be shift the perception from you "trying to please" (weak) to you "being pleasurable" (admirable).

"What would you have preferred me to say?" would have been even more powerful as "What would you have said if the situation was reversed" and "I like that".

@Skip - Thank you, this is very helpful.  I see the difference.  I feel like part of what you're suggesting is turning it around to allow them to process is better from a different perspective, rather than just looking for them to say what they want to hear.  Am I on track with that?

Reading it back, the grey text is a lot of over explaining and I think is most of the stuff I felt like I was getting a little defensive with.  So yeah, that makes sense.  I'll put some more thought into that and let that sink in conceptually.
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formflier
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« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2021, 10:21:21 AM »

And...also remember it's unlikely they (our pwBPD) are looking for details about how to have a better conversation.

It is likely that they have odd/uncomfortable feelings about the conversation..and are not processing them in a comfortable way.

Focus first on the feelings..connecting..listening..reassuring.

Analysis later or not at all.  Or perhaps ask later if they want that.


With that in mind.  What do you think your pwBPD was saying about their feelings..their "worries"?

Best,

FF
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lostinvt

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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 13


« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2021, 03:24:30 PM »

Excerpt
What do you think your pwBPD was saying about their feelings..their "worries"?

That's a really good question.  I think I would have to say that she probably was feeling negatively about me still (black and white thinking), yet wanted the hug from me.  So she was glad to get that from me.  After feeling soothed by my hug, then felt bad for not hugging me back, but instead of owning that, her anxiety and self-esteem took over and she became very worried and anxious about how I perceived it.

So maybe saying something like this : "I wanted to hug you, that's all.  I understand you're upset right now.  If and when you want to give me a bigger hug, I'll gladly accept one."
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formflier
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« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2021, 04:16:05 PM »

Good effort!   Way to go! (click to insert in post)

Assume it's not about the hug.  Don't get to deep in the words and details.

I get it...the hug seems very obvious..(look under that issue)

What really fundamental message is being sent?

Best,

FF
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