Repeated requests to go through her posessions with her.

[Depression = 72% of members]

BPD mom does this over and over again. She asks for help going through things in her house, saying she wants to scale down, but then changes her mind and argues over them.

Some repeating patterns:

"I need to know what you want".

When I tell her I want something, she then refuses to let me have it. My response has been to tell her if she wants me to have something, then please just give it to me. This isn't to her satisfaction, she wants me to  go through her things with her, one by one, tell her what I want and then she says " I have changed my mind I think I want to keep this". The next time I visit, she asks me to go throught he same stuff with her all over again.


" this item is very valuable, it's worth a lot of money"

She has had several people in her house over the years who have not been trustworthy. Several things have been stolen from her. I have a house where I can keep things safe. My response has been " if you are concerned about something getting stolen, I can keep it at my house". She won't let me do that. This also doesn't work. Her next response to that is " I can't control if this happens or not, it's your problem if it's gone".

" I don't want you to go through this drawer, I just want you to open it and tell me what's in it"

Well that's not possible to do, I can't just see in a drawer crammed with things, I have to go through it and that involves sitting with her while she asks me what I want and then sequesters it back in the drawer.  My response has been to say I don't want to do that, and then she snaps into victim mode. " I just can't do this by myself"

Her next threat if I don't do what she asks is that she says she's just going to toss it all out. Honestly, at this point, I don't care what she does with what she has.

One possible idea is that she fears I won't come visit her if she doesn't have these things, but I have been visiting her for a long time now and not asking for anything. I would much rather do other things like have coffee with her than go through her things, but it's the first thing she asks me to do each time and it becomes a battle if I don't do it.

Control? I have to sit there silently while she shows me item after item and asks me if I want it and then puts it away. I have to sit there and obey her.

Senility? she doesn't seem to remember we have already done this. Many times.

My visits are short. Maybe I should just do this with her, like playing a repetitive game with a child. If I do visit, it's to see her and if this is what she wants to do, maybe I should just play along? I don't want her possesions but it feels abusive.

Any advice? Thanks.

[Notwendy]

BPD mom does this over and over again. She asks for help going through things in her house, saying she wants to scale down, but then changes her mind and argues over them.

Some repeating patterns:

"I need to know what you want".

When I tell her I want something, she then refuses to let me have it. My response has been to tell her if she wants me to have something, then please just give it to me. This isn't to her satisfaction, she wants me to  go through her things with her, one by one, tell her what I want and then she says " I have changed my mind I think I want to keep this". The next time I visit, she asks me to go throught he same stuff with her all over again.


" this item is very valuable, it's worth a lot of money"

She has had several people in her house over the years who have not been trustworthy. Several things have been stolen from her. I have a house where I can keep things safe. My response has been " if you are concerned about something getting stolen, I can keep it at my house". She won't let me do that. This also doesn't work. Her next response to that is " I can't control if this happens or not, it's your problem if it's gone".

" I don't want you to go through this drawer, I just want you to open it and tell me what's in it"

Well that's not possible to do, I can't just see in a drawer crammed with things, I have to go through it and that involves sitting with her while she asks me what I want and then sequesters it back in the drawer.  My response has been to say I don't want to do that, and then she snaps into victim mode. " I just can't do this by myself"

Her next threat if I don't do what she asks is that she says she's just going to toss it all out. Honestly, at this point, I don't care what she does with what she has.

One possible idea is that she fears I won't come visit her if she doesn't have these things, but I have been visiting her for a long time now and not asking for anything. I would much rather do other things like have coffee with her than go through her things, but it's the first thing she asks me to do each time and it becomes a battle if I don't do it.

Control? I have to sit there silently while she shows me item after item and asks me if I want it and then puts it away. I have to sit there and obey her.

Senility? she doesn't seem to remember we have already done this. Many times.

My visits are short. Maybe I should just do this with her, like playing a repetitive game with a child. If I do visit, it's to see her and if this is what she wants to do, maybe I should just play along? I don't want her possesions but it feels abusive.

Any advice? Thanks.

[madeline7]

No advise but it appears we have so many similar issues with our Moms. Presently my Mom has very poor short term memory, but in the years leading up to now, this has been a constant scenario played out. Once she had all the daughters and SIL's present and told us what to do with the important jewelry and musical instruments. So I distributed the instruments to the grandchildren as instructed and then she forgot about that the next time I saw her. In the past she would seem to conveniently forget and then be angry with me, and that's when I realized her memory was going. She figured she told me and forgot. Not as much anger. But up until then she would seem to almost perserverate on the topic of going through her things with everyone present. Perhaps a way to get everyone over. She is now in rehab due to a fall and still hangs up on me when I say I cannot come everyday for hours to visit (due to covid rules). She is so fearful of being abandoned that she is programmed to use tactics to get us to visit. Yet she pushes us away with her behavior. A viscous cycle that is repeated...

[beatricex]

hi Notwendy,
Your situation sounds a lot like mine (and my siblings), but to an extreme.  My mom is also very possessive of her stuff, she thinks we all want it, promises to give us certain items, but then never does.

When I was younger (in my 20's) I would just take something if I wanted it.  The problem is I have 5 siblings, and nothing was actually mine, we shared stuff.  I figured if it had sentimental value to me, it was better I had it than no one.  I'm talking about things like our childhood video games, etc

The things left are now super valuable (or were at one point), an antique pool table, an antique vehicle, an antique desk, a coin collection, things like that.  But, they're just rotting away at her place cause she's too stingy to give them up.  My Dad would have doled things out years ago, but my Mom's a hoarder and he can barely stand it.   She also saves things completly worthless, like plastic packing material (bubble wrap, etc).  She has rooms full of this kind of thing.  Stuffed animals that probably have bed bugs?  It's kind of gross, I'm glad I have not been asked "to go through it" with her, but I see that coming one day...like your mom.

I too believe that she fears if she gives these things away, no one will come visit her.  My brother made the comment to me recently "I don't want ANY of her stuff!"  I was thinking to myself, "me either...why does she think we want this crap?"

It's at the point, they need to SELL their valuable stuff just to live.  Kind of ironic, we will be handing her money one day because she doesn't have any (she's also really bad with money, just spends everything my Dad has made), but holding onto her stuff.  I will be peeved cause I'll be paying taxes or storage payments for things she just wants to hold onto for some obtuse reason.

It is about control.

Hang in there.  I get it.

b

[Notwendy]

She is so fearful of being abandoned that she is programmed to use tactics to get us to visit. Yet she pushes us away with her behavior. A viscous cycle that is repeated...


I think this is the issue. I don't think she's lost her memory. The first things she brings up to me are things that belonged to my father. This was my main emotional tie. But she's used this one so many times it just doesn't work with me now. I think part of bringing this up to me is to test my reaction and when I don't react by pleading with her for them, she then gets into a circular argument over what to do with them.

The second one is the "this is valuable" and telling me how much it is worth and that she plans to leave it to one of us one day. I think this one gets my attention because of my instinct to protect something valuable from being stolen. So I tell her I can keep it for her and then give it to her designated recipient. Although this is a solution, she just then turns it into a circular argument. She doesn't want the solution. I need to learn to ignore this one better, as it doesn't go anywhere productive.

The last one is "victim mode"- "nobody will help me go through my things, I can't do it alone" . Well just try to help her. It's about as fun as giving a cat a bath.

I tend to go to problem solving mode and that's my mistake, because I don't think she brings these things up to solve the issue because she's had the same things for years and won't let any of us have them.

[Methuen]

Hi NotWendy,

I can see where being stuck in the same impossible cycle could become overtaxing.  It doesn't strike me as being sustainable, without either understanding what is going on, or changing things up to break the cycle.

From both the human development (aging) perspective, and with BPD in mind, I have a couple of perspectives to explain what could be going on here, and maybe a strategy of two to change things up a bit.  But to narrow things down first (and stop the guessing), it could be helpful to hear a little more about your mother.  Can you describe the essence of her in a nutshell?  How old is she now?  Does she have any independence (physically, mentally)?  How is her cognition?  Maybe a couple of her key strengths and weaknesses.  Also, what key interests/passions did she have in her life?  

As an eye on the outside looking in as you have described it, this is interesting, but not so for you as it seems like you are stuck in a "leg hold trap".  Maybe we can help you find a way out of that trap...

[Notwendy]

Beatricex,

It's good to know I am not alone but sorry to see you are dealing with this too. It's interesting because my mother is a tosser, not a hoarder and has over the years tossed out thing when she's angry at us. I used to bring things my Dad liked to eat and she'd toss them out because I didn't have her permission to.

She treats us like we are lowly serfs in her queendom and expects total passivity and obedience while she holds court. And that is what going through her things is like. We sit, she decides.

Dad might have given us some sentimental things, but he wasn't allowed to. Just as you had to take things, I recall he told us we could have something but we had to sneak it out of the house so she didn't know we had it.

She complains about the stuff in her house and how she wants to get rid of it but nobody will help her. We could have done this for her in one day, and we have offered to do that, but she changes her mind and then won't let us. We stopped offering long ago. It's just pointless.

[Notwendy]

Methuen,
Thanks, she's quite elderly now, late 80's.

She still lives independently but has home health workers. It's hard to know what she can do for herself and what she can't because emotionally she needs to be served and waited on, and has had people do that long before she was elderly. It's just more normal now. She can't drive, go shopping on her own, but she hasn't done that in decades.

Cognitively she's sharp as a tack but severely BPD and in her emotional states is quite dysregulated to the point where she may not recall what she said or did in these times. However, she is very wiley and manipulative.

She's in relatively great health for her age, has no major physical conditions.

She's widowed and lives on her own, but prefers that as she likes to be in control.

Passions? She likes the arts, and reads voraciously. She's social and has lots of friends. She's outgoing and charming with her friends.

[zachira]

My mother constantly talked about how her children were going to divide up her possessions after she died. That did not happen, because my brother refused to follow the will in this regard.
I do think that people with BPD are very materialistic because they don't know how to have emotionally reciprocal caring relationships.
Trying to find an explanation for your mother's behavior does not make it any less hurtful. It seems like it is pull push, as she has found a topic to interact with you on, than pushes you away because she cannot do it.
Is there any possiblity of some of the time having others around to distract from this painful uncomfortable interaction with your mother?

[Methuen]

So maybe these are some wild thoughts coming from eyes on the outside looking in for the first time:

This isn't to her satisfaction, she wants me to  go through her things with her, one by one, tell her what I want and then she says " I have changed my mind I think I want to keep this".

We all know that to navigate a BPD relationship with our mothers it is best to keep things superficial.  The first thought that popped into my head when I read this, is "keeping the object you keep stating you like is her way of being close to you".  One of the books I read about BPD supports this, because it gave a suggestion for how to offset the feeling of abandonment when a family member leaves on a holiday.  "Give them an object of yours that they like", and while you are gone, it is a way of still having you with them.  I actually did this with my mom the last time we travelled (pre-pandemic).  It took her by surprise, but she accepted the object, and kindly returned it to me when I returned.  Just another perspective...

" this item is very valuable, it's worth a lot of money"

So I think with a lot of pwBPD, money=love.  There could be underlying messages, but who knows what they are.  Maybe she wants you to know what the expensive items are (in her mind) so that if you are lucky enough to get one some day, you will know how much she loved you.

Several things have been stolen from her. I have a house where I can keep things safe. My response has been " if you are concerned about something getting stolen, I can keep it at my house". She won't let me do that. This also doesn't work. Her next response to that is " I can't control if this happens or not, it's your problem if it's gone".

You are thinking rationally, but pwBPD are not rational, they are emotional.  I have come to accept that offering my mom solutions is a waste of time.  Instead, I will often respond with a question instead.  So, when she complains or worries about items being stolen, "what do you think you could do mom?" or "what are you thinking is a way to avoid _____ from being stolen?"  I don't offer many solutions any more, as she tends to not respond well to my rational solutions.

" I don't want you to go through this drawer, I just want you to open it and tell me what's in it"

 On the surface, this sounds like control, and more control.  But I'm wondering if beneath that veneer, it's possible that something else is going on.  Perhaps in one of those drawers, there is an item that could be a trigger for her, and she is afraid of seeing it, so she asks you to tell her what is in the drawer.  

" I just can't do this by myself"

 What I'm getting from this is it's just too emotionally taxing for her.  Maybe try SET, and then gently redirect, when she says this?

One possible idea is that she fears I won't come visit her if she doesn't have these things, but I have been visiting her for a long time now and not asking for anything.

Your thinking is rational.  It is possible that pointing this out to her may feel invalidating to her.  Who knows?  Dysregulating BPD's are irrational, and I put less energy into "trying to figure her out" and find solutions, than I used to.  Better than telling her this, is supporting the idea with action.  "Let's go for a drive today mom".

Her next threat if I don't do what she asks is that she says she's just going to toss it all out.

BPD's have no filter for their emotions.  I doubt that she means it, because if she's a hoarder, that would be impossible for her.  It's probably more an expression of her inability to cope with her emotional feelings.

I have to sit there silently while she shows me item after item and asks me if I want it and then puts it away. I have to sit there and obey her.

 Time to change up the pattern.
 It's not really possible to visit an art gallery with her in the pandemic, but if you also know any of her friends or family, you could set up a surprise FaceTime or Skype or Zoom with a special friend she hasn't seen in a while (since she is social).  Or does she sketch or paint?  Would it work to set up an activity she likes and do it with her?  Inotherwords, distract her from the pattern of familiar predictability that she is comfortable with.  She is "getting something" from asking you to go through her drawers, but then not following through on your suggestions.  Maybe it's time to replace whatever she is "getting" from that, with a new experience from which she can "get" something different.  When my mom was in hospital over Christmas because of her last fall, we bought her an ipad for $800.  Best $800 I ever spent.  My mom is also social and charismatic with her friends.  Now she can FT and text them to her heart's content.  That ipad feels like a babysitter for me.  It keeps her occupied.  And she brags to everyone she uses an ipad.  I'm not suggesting you get her an ipad, but simply putting out the idea that it can be helpful to think of how we can substitute a "stuck" behavior, with something new and more productive.  Maybe art books of some kind?  Could you take her to a store and let her pick something as a gift from you (money = love)?  Hey mom, "today we are going for a drive to...(some place she really likes and can't turn down).

[Methuen]

One last thought: I have visited an elderly services consultant in my area.  She is a specialist geriatric mental health nurse.  She has been most helpful with giving me practical strategies for my aging mother.  I have put these strategies to good use.  She thinks in addition to everything else, my mom has something called "pathological demand avoidance".  So for example, even giving her a choice between a "chicken supper or a beef supper" is a demand because she has to make a decision.  For my mom, going to an appointment she booked is still a "demand", and emotionally, she can only do 1 appointment per day, and maybe even only 1 per week.  Gaining insights to the problems of "aging" (from this expert), has helped me a lot, and what helps me, also helps my mom.  I'm wondering if maybe you could get access to some kind of support like this?  The geriatric layer is another whole complicating layer on top of the BPD.

[GaGrl]

One last thought: I have visited an elderly services consultant in my area.  She is a specialist geriatric mental health nurse.  She has been most helpful with giving me practical strategies for my aging mother.  I have put these strategies to good use.  She thinks in addition to everything else, my mom has something called "pathological demand avoidance".  So for example, even giving her a choice between a "chicken supper or a beef supper" is a demand because she has to make a decision.  For my mom, going to an appointment she booked is still a "demand", and emotionally, she can only do 1 appointment per day, and maybe even only 1 per week.  Gaining insights to the problems of "aging" (from this expert), has helped me a lot, and what helps me, also helps my mom.  I'm wondering if maybe you could get access to some kind of support like this?  The geriatric layer is another whole complicating layer on top of the BPD.

I had already begun limiting activities each day/week and not giving my mom choices prior to her illnesses last November. She is now in home hospice. Choices baffle her, and her cognition is deteriorating. Then she'll have a really good day. I try to enjoy those.

My mom started the litany of "who got what" in her late 50s. It drove my sister and me nuts. Then my sister died of breast cancer at 32, and I was the only surviving child. Mom would bring out her jewelry case from the safe and want to go through it, each visit. I finally told her I didn't want to do it anymore, that she could go ahead and give it away as she wished. (We have very different tastes.) She huffed and puffed, but I haven't endured that anymore since I retired and moved into our retirement house with her in residence. She still has furniture and "stuff" in our house that will be sold or donated or given to the kids in the family who are just setting up housekeeping. Again, very different tastes.

The best tactic I've seen was what my husband's stepmother did. There were five adult children between them, and she made a list specifying which child got which item -- jewelry, hanging and sculptural art, furniture, sentimental items, etc. It was clear that she thought carefully about what was important and suited to each child.

Perhaps having your mother make such a list would prevent the need to "go through" stuff. " Then again...perhaps not.

[Notwendy]

I love the idea of geriatric support - for me to understand. You are correct that suggestions to my mother are perceived as a demand.

Materially, she has anything she wants. Dad left her financially sound and she needs to have the best of everything. So when she asks the teen age video gamer in the neighborhood what the best computer is, she gets it.. She has a computer that is a gamer's dream. She does like to Skype with family so that's a good suggestion.

I grew up in fear of my mother. She had control of me through my father. I was emotionally attached to him. My mother and I were not ever bonded. I don't think she loves me. But when my father died, she lost her main way of controlling me, so perhaps this is why she brings up his possessions when we speak - to keep that tie  I do know that I have been useful to her and also she wants a connection to my children. The kids are young adults now, she can contact them on her own. ( and she does the same thing with them, asks them to tell her what they want). So the possesion thing might be how she thinks she maintains a connection with me, even though that isn't what motivates me to stay in contact with her.

She would love to be taken out to a show, and I would do that, except for the pandemic. She's immunized now so maybe that possibility will open up. We are going to get together with some people next visit, she likes that. She also loves to be taken out shopping, again, that was interrrupted by the pandemic but may be a possibility since she's been vaccinated.

Thanks for the suggestions.