Crises and what’s wrong with me

[GaGrl]

Let me preface this by saying I have two cousins with Downs Syndrome, and I am very familiar and very protective of those types of situations.

It was an opportunity to practice empathy, and your H failed the oppportunity.

Moving on...

The term "Hate" is extreme, and I would explore your H's and your stepson's (alleged) use of this term, as it indicates a level of antipathy that you might not be willing to deal with.

This is escalating. Can you see that?

[Ozzie101]

I can see it, yes. We can’t go more than a week without a problem at this point.

I just feel lost. Angry. Lonely. Confused. Scared.

Chances are, tomorrow he’ll apologize. He’ll still think he was right about SS but he’ll likely say he’s sorry for how he acted to me.

It just doesn’t seem good enough.

And more than that, can I be ok being with someone who has that kind of attitude and reaction to that sort of behavior from his son? Given SS’s physical lashing out at his own mother, I have concerns of how he’ll end up. Do I want to be here for it?

[formflier]

I would suggest you handle it when he is remorseful by explicitly letting him know "sorry" isn't enough.  (I'm not suggesting using those exact words..still on first cup of coffee...)

How about "I appreciate your expression of sorrow, I'm curious how you propose to make amends (or perhaps reconcile...or perhaps make amends and reconcile)"

Please don't take this a "blame" towards you Ozzie...I'm trying to look at your part of the "dynamic" because I'm confident YOU can change this.

Now..another uncomfortable question that is a "tweak" or "nuance" of GaGrl's comment.  I see this as an escalation or maybe if not "escalation"..it's a "different line" that he crossed.

He "allowed"..."participated in"..."passively watched"... (you get the idea of how I'm trying to find the "best case")...his son to "play rough" (again the most polite thing I can think of) with an obviously disabled person.  

I'm shocked the Mom didn't go Mamma bear after the first...it would sound like she was "restrained" on the second...yet your hubby seems to place "blame" with her  as opposed to parenting/correcting/kicking his kids azzzz

It's possible I'm overreacting (I don't think so..) so I'll give "full disclosure".  I was high school football player...jock and also one of the "smart kids" (in all advanced classes) in high school.  So I kinda ran in two circles.

The "jocks" had "taken in" and emotionally disturbed classmate as one of their own.  We would flip off his hat..poke at him..play around with him just as we did each other.  I suppose our "logic" was he would appreciate (and he seemed to) being "one of the guys".  Heaven forbid we were somewhere and someone from another school made a comment about our guy "having a spaz attack" (he would kinda have this standing seizures from time to time).  Several fights broke out over stuff like that (not sure if it matters that we won them all...)

I was also aware that "the smart kids" thought the jocks were jerks the way they treated him (because I ran in those circles too).  

Looking back now I'm not sure if we treated him right...I wish I was more "encouraging"...but however you imagine high school football guys treating each other...he was right in there.  

Anyway...the older I've gotten I've certainly been more aware of those with disabilities and wanted to make sure I'm a positive influence in their life...without "treating them like they can't...(fill in the blank)...


Hitting them in the face a couple of times with a ball...naaahh...simply no good from any angle.

If they had been playing "dodge ball" and got clocked ONCE...that would be "normal"..make sure they are ok and keep going.   This doesn't sound like that.


 


Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

It's not out of bounds to bluntly use the term "bullying." It was bullying behavior, and it was tolerated. Unacceptable.

I am not the only person in this world with contempt for bullies. SS might have a rough road in front of him learning that lesson the hard way.

[Ozzie101]

From what I hear, it was an accident. The group of kids was playing a game, this girl was playing with them. SS didn’t realize the girl had Downs Syndrome. H didn’t realize until after the second time (he was farther away). SS was throwing it to her like he was to everyone else. Fine. But regardless, if a child misses a catch on the first time, I would modulate my throw the next time. And I would apologize, accident or not. H missed a learning opportunity on many levels. What lesson will SS learn? Maybe none.

I have zero tolerance for bullying, especially of people with special needs. My sister has been loved, protected and supported (and encouraged to push her boundaries) but even she had a few incidents. I keep thinking — SS and DH are lucky this mom wasn’t my dad. His handling of it would not have been so “kind.”

No apologies today. H is acting like nothing happened.

[Cat Familiar]

My ire was not elicited by SS’s behavior, but by your husband’s response to the disabled girl’s mother.

He wanted to  punch her in the face. 

This is so bad on so many levels.

I probably shouldn’t say anymore.

How are you handling this, Ozzie?
 

[formflier]

It appears we all agree the first toss is OK.

Second one is problematic...also problematic is the lack of response after first throw.  Again none of us were there but it doesn't sound like "oh my...you ok?" or anything like that.

I'm not sure I can give hubby a pass on any.

Ugg.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

His response is my issue too. Also, this was a chance to work in SS’s empathy and responsibility. SS has never, in the 5 years I’ve known him, apologized for anything. Ever. If he’s corrected about anything he either cries or shuts down. I’ve long seen that as a problem — one H does nothing to address.

Honestly? I don’t know how I’m doing. I feel kind of sick. Confused. Angry. Lost. Like I said, he’s acting like nothing happened today. I can’t.

[Cat Familiar]

I see this as an example of a deep seated divergence in values between the two of you. Do you think this is consistent with him or possibly a one off?

[Ozzie101]

It’s consistent with his attitude about SS. Mostly when he’s in one of his moods. At other times he’s way more reasonable and thoughtful — well, if SS isn’t involved.

I’m reminded of my family beach trip four years ago. Late in the week, H found SS crying. Apparently he had been in my nieces’ room playing and he was being obnoxious and pestering them while they were trying to watch a movie. My nephew, who was nearby, told his mom (my sister), who was also nearby and she (nicely) told SS he needed to go upstairs and find his dad and maybe do something else for a while.

H nearly came unglued. I didn’t see anything wrong with how my sister handled it. She was the adult in the area. She didn’t chastise or stand him. She just removed him from the situation. Keep in mind 15 minutes later SS and the girls were having a dance party and living it up.

The whole thing left me shaken as it was the first time I’d seen H like that. When I tried to suggest my sister hadn’t been in the wrong and that SS had just been a little too excited and needed a break, he looked like he wanted to throw me through a window or something.

Two years ago, we went to the beach with H’s bio family and, after I left, there was apparently an incident involving his sister and SS. She had said something to SS and H told me it got him worked up. SS corrected him later that H had misunderstood. But H told me everyone was acting strange that night. A month later, H was cut off. I’ve often wondered if he showed that side.

Anyway, his defensiveness and rage regarding SS had long been a concern for me. And it does SS no favors because he ends up not learning valuable lessons — and makes him a kid no one wants to be around.

It worries me.

As far as his attitude regarding the little girl — I don’t know. When he’s upset and in defense mode, he frequently says things that, in calm times, he would insist he doesn’t truly think it believe.

[I Am Redeemed]

This incident as well as the others you mentioned involving SS stem from the same root as the rest of your h's problematic behavior: he has extreme sensitivity to and hypervigilance towards identifying and defending himself from rejection and/or blame/shame.

He sees SS as an extension of himself, so he is extremely sensitive to rejection of SS and is hypervigilant about identifying any rejection of SS...because rejection of SS is rejection of him. Blame towards SS is blame towards him, which causes toxic shame.

It's likely that he felt shame when the girl's mother reprimanded his son...because maybe he felt that it was as if she were saying that he should be a better parent, or that SS should be a better kid, or both. I think this incident is a good example of how he views conflict: anyone who isn't for me is against me, therefore rejecting me/SS. I can see how this would bring an extreme reaction from him (wanting to punch her in the face). It's also very concerning and a colossal red flag, imo.

[Ozzie101]

That’s my reading of it as well. It’s been a concern of mine for some time. SS is a kid. There are going to be incidents. He’s going to make mistakes or do things wrong. H will complain about him or his behavior but when something happens involving another person, he loses it. And since SS isn’t actually being taught lessons about behavior and how to handle things correctly, incidents are even more likely to happen — and when they do, he won’t be able to handle them either.

I really don’t know what to do about it. I can’t do much about how SS is raised. But I don’t know that the whole thing is a subject I can address with H given his sensitivity. Yet standing by and watching (especially with things like the pool incident) just goes against my core.

[Cat Familiar]

This is a deepseated issue for your husband. It is entwined with his identity, and that’s why he reacts so strongly. PwBPD have a shaky sense of identity already.

And you’re right, SS won’t learn valuable life skills with his father intervening and labeling him as a *victim*. It sounds as if he’s already quite deficient in emotional intelligence for his age.

It’s so difficult to not be a biological parent. I faced the same thing when I was with a very nice man who had an emotionally troubled young daughter. He had PTSD from military service, so it was similar to some BPD issues and he was over solicitous of his daughter, who already was extremely entitled and spoiled.

Unfortunately the future I had foreseen for her came to pass, with suicide attempts, sexually inappropriate behavior toward other children, etc. (I had not shared all my thoughts about her behavior, but even mild suggestions were labeled as *criticisms* and accusations that I didn’t like her.)

One of the things I worried about was her bad eating habits, and by the time she was 15, she was 5’3” and weighed over 300 pounds. I was long out of her life by that time.

When she was almost an adult, I ran into her father in town and he told me he wished that he would have listened to what I was telling him when she was 7.

It’s a very difficult place that you’re in, Ozzie.  

[Ozzie101]

Thanks, Cat. It is difficult.

The thing is, SS has so much potential. He’s incredibly smart. He’s good-looking. He’s talented and athletic.

But, yes, he’s emotionally immature. He’s capable of insight and moments of thoughtfulness. But he had no clue how to handle any kind of correction and, if things don’t go the way he wants, he gets upset. From what I’ve seen and been told, both parents bend over backwards to avoid anything that might upset him. Apparently, he had major tantrum problems as a toddler that led to lots of appeasement. Then he’s an only child and grandchild so the world revolves around him.

I’ve seen myself SS physically lashing out at his mom when she tells him no or tries to correct him. I’ve also been told of an instance just 6 months ago. He got in trouble for calling a kid a name in school (apparently it was a good friend and they were trash-talking and a girl who overheard reported it). His mom tried to address it and he threw something at her, telling her “we’re not talking about it!” That all really bothers me. My T said some of his behaviors are warning signs for future abusers/perpetrators.

Sometimes I feel like I’m watching a slow-mo car crash. I really hope I’m wrong.

[Ozzie101]

This evening, H apologized for being a jerk last night. Said some work stuff set him off (which I guessed) and then the pool thing. He said he wished I had been there to see this lady and how ridiculous it was.

I didn’t let him off the hook, telling him it was better I wasn’t because he would not have liked what I would have had to say.

We actually ended up having a discussion about what happened and how it should have been handled. H said he didn’t fully agree with me (he believes special needs kids should be treated like everyone else do they’re not segregated — I said it’s more nuanced than that — and since the other kids were also rough-housing, SS did nothing wrong and shouldn’t have been singled out — well, if he was the only one to hit the girl repeatedly...) but he stayed calm and reasonable.

He admitted that he doesn’t like to have to talk to SS or reprimand him about things because he doesn’t want to deal with the inevitable tears and meltdown. I asked him how SS was ever supposed to learn things (such as how to handle correction) if no one ever addresses things with him. H agreed that I was right.

Do I feel better? Not really. H is still in the mindset that SS did nothing wrong and the mom was out of line. I also know this is likely to happen again the next time SS is out of line. And it doesn’t solve H losing it when something upsets him.

Basically, I still feel frustrated and angry and don’t have any rosier image of SS’s future or H’s personality and parental skills.

[formflier]

So..what is your hubby going to do to make "amends" and or make sure this never happens again...(or happens much less..is much less of a "thing" when it does happen.)


Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

He says he doesn’t know. He doesn’t know how to control it because once he gets triggered, he doesn’t know how to hold on.

I didn’t get much more out of him last night but if he seems stable, I plan to address it more fully today.

[formflier]

He says he doesn’t know. He doesn’t know how to control it because once he gets triggered, he doesn’t know how to hold on.

I didn’t get much more out of him last night but if he seems stable, I plan to address it more fully today.

I doubt he does know, that's why his answer should be "I'm going to get my medical and mental health team to help me know..and I'll follow their recommendations."

And then consistently do that.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

That’s been his response many times after an episode. Most recent time, two months ago, his P prescribed a new med for him to try taking when he feels himself getting worked up. That was the appointment I was supposed to join in on, but H was in a mood and left town and then I wasn’t able to get on the call with them. He’s often very open to my participating but then things always happen. On my “list” of things to discuss is my telling him I want to talk to his P about things.

He is no longer seeing a T.

He says he tells them about the blackouts and rages and they don’t seem too concerned. But I don’t know what’s really being discussed.

In the case of last week, he really doesn’t think he was wrong. He just apologized for being moody. He sees his reaction regarding the little girl’s mother as understandable and normal. He really doesn’t see a problem with his pattern of severe reactions re SS.

[formflier]

So..there is really no doubt here was "amends" looks like..right?

Can you write out what you think it will be like.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

I think I should be able to talk to his P about what’s going on.

He would agree, most likely. But I would not be surprised if things happened to delay or interfere. He might say that, in that case, he thinks he should be able to talk to my T. That’s fine.

But even that doesn’t really address some of my problem, which is the difference in values and the issues with SS and H’s enmeshment with him. But that’s not entirely a BPD issue.

And even when I was going with him to his P (a different one), they didn’t really seem too concerned about what I told them.

[formflier]

Couple questions:

So..what exactly will address your problem.  Most likely best to write that out and make sure it is solid, because you know...you know that once you start trying to express that..very likely BPD will show up.

Plus..once you get it written out in "plain English"...we can help you with SET, DEARMAN or other strategies to help it be the most likely that "he will hear".

Switching gears a bit.

Regardless of how you would express your problem (s), full unfettered access to his medical team would seem to be a positive step in the right direction of possibly moving a step or two in a healthier direction.

Here is the challenge to you and then I would challenge you to communicate this to your husband.

1.  He says he wants to get better, is sorry for what he does to you and also says he has NO IDEA how to change/make this better.  (is this a fair summation?)  If not please adjust.

2.  He says he will give you access to his medical for the purpose of helping him change/making amends for his misdeeds.

3.  Yet...ignore what he says...focus only on results/what he has actually done in the past 6 months.  (perhaps longer).

Maybe that is an even bigger challenge question.  How long has it been since

His behavior has changed with regard to "the dance" that you guys are in?

Your behavior has changed with regard to "the dance" that you guys are in?  (I can think of several..it's important you are clear on this as well)

Enough for now...I think very important to clarify this for you..prior to chatting with him.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

The problem as I see it: When something happens that upsets or otherwise triggers him, it spirals into rage. Usually, it ricochets and he will focus on some way of being angry at me (often for something unrelated to what actually set him off in the first place). It would help if he had a healthier way of coping with these incidents so they don’t end up directed at me or any other people.

1. That is pretty accurate. I have expressed the above before and he always agrees with me and insists he wants to fix it and is trying but no one is helping. (Meds don’t work, T us a waste of time because everything the T suggests doesn’t work for H.)

On the timeline, I’m not sure. Almost three years ago was when things started getting bad and I first came here. Then, Feb of 2019, things improved. It was March, 2020, we first saw a renewed escalation that has continued. He grew more assertive about pulling my family into “blame.” Dysregulations seemed more tied to my not being around.

I would say around that time, I changed my approach. I was no longer as meek or conciliatory. But I need to give more thought to that...

[Cat Familiar]

I think the underlying victimhood (meds don’t work; therapy is a waste of time) is something that pwBPD cling to. Change is upsetting. Having to be accountable is painful. Acknowledging responsibility is excruciating. Far better to say, “I’m doing everything I can,” and really be doing nothing at all, but repeating the same.

[Ozzie101]

True, Cat. There’s a lot of victim hood at play. Also, he has a tendency to say nothing helps or nothing works, yet he’s changing providers frequently and, when he is in therapy, admits he just doesn’t say much.

One of his big complaints about me is that I’ll say I need to think about something or we’ll talk about something later. To an extent that’s true. I do need more time to process. And, no, sometimes we don’t end up having a discussion about some things. That’s usually because there are certain things I can’t address directly or, when I do, it goes badly.

Yet, I think he’s guilty of the same.

He has made some progress, for instance, leaving the house when he gets worked up, but the rages still end up happening. That’s on me, though — to cut it off.