Reasons and motivations for endless fighting?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

"Picking fights" seems to be a common complaint of non's living with BPDs. I understand that this behaviour stems from the fact that BPD's merely react to perceived slights -- thus in their mind, it wasn't them picking the fight, but you.

What I don't understand is why those fights are always perpetuated by the BPD? I had the feeling that whenever my exBPD was starting to see my point, he would throw completely unrelated things into the mix only to have a reason to continue arguing. Not to mention the hours-long, drawn out situations where he would blindly keep railing against me even though I had long conceded the point (often against my own boundaries and better judgment).

At the same time, he often complained to me why I just "couldn't be happy", and stressed how horrible it was to be fighting all the time. He also blamed me for "escalating". If I tried to reason calmly and soberly, I was being "aggressive" in his eyes. If I tried to console him and be warm, I was being "manipulative". I just felt as if I couldn't do anything right.

When we were close, happy, and everything was fine and dandy, he would create conflicts out of thin air, such as suddenly saying "You put your toothbrush in the cabinet while I leave it out; I don't think us living together would ever work out".

Why then, if BPDs suffer so terribly from conflict as they infer, do they not only keep provoking it, but also perpetuate it, and hold on to it for their dear life? Why can't they let minor things go like neurotypical people? And is it normal for them to start projecting?

[Sappho11]

"Picking fights" seems to be a common complaint of non's living with BPDs. I understand that this behaviour stems from the fact that BPD's merely react to perceived slights -- thus in their mind, it wasn't them picking the fight, but you.

What I don't understand is why those fights are always perpetuated by the BPD? I had the feeling that whenever my exBPD was starting to see my point, he would throw completely unrelated things into the mix only to have a reason to continue arguing. Not to mention the hours-long, drawn out situations where he would blindly keep railing against me even though I had long conceded the point (often against my own boundaries and better judgment).

At the same time, he often complained to me why I just "couldn't be happy", and stressed how horrible it was to be fighting all the time. He also blamed me for "escalating". If I tried to reason calmly and soberly, I was being "aggressive" in his eyes. If I tried to console him and be warm, I was being "manipulative". I just felt as if I couldn't do anything right.

When we were close, happy, and everything was fine and dandy, he would create conflicts out of thin air, such as suddenly saying "You put your toothbrush in the cabinet while I leave it out; I don't think us living together would ever work out".

Why then, if BPDs suffer so terribly from conflict as they infer, do they not only keep provoking it, but also perpetuate it, and hold on to it for their dear life? Why can't they let minor things go like neurotypical people? And is it normal for them to start projecting?

[Couper]

My understanding is that it's because they have a perpetual ax to grind.  Why we non's a problem processing this is because what's taking place could have it's origins in an incident from years, or even decades, before we came on the scene.  This unresolved issue is carried throughout their life and, while they may have removed the crosshairs from the original offender, they have not yet put down their weapon.  It is so hardwired into their psyche that the rules of justice as to who they punishing with their assault do not apply.    

A couple of months ago I went through something very similar to what you describe:

She had decided that we needed to replace something in the house.  The kind of thing you do every several years and not an insignificant expense.  Fine, I have no problem with that.  She visited a store and learned this and that and there are all kinds of extra expenses that there hasn't been in the past and all I say is good, we've got a point of reference now, let’s do some shopping around and we’ll make a decision (very similar to another incident that happened days before that in the end I settled on my own and I'm sure she was still sore about but never let it show) and suddenly the whole thing turned on it's head and the volume gets very loud – "Why would any other store be cheaper?  It’s the way things are.  Better to pay someone to deliver it than you hurt your back.  We can pay someone to cart off the old one." (free delivery and disposal is common) and on and on and on like a machine gun and I just calmly say fine, but no harm in shopping a little before making a significant purchase like that and she keeps on and instead of just walking away like I should have done, I said, “Look, this is exactly what you said the other day when I was told the other thing (mentioned above) didn’t exist (but it did, I dropped the issue, completed the transaction myself, and she had egg on her face after she had made a huge issue of a giant nothing burger).  It’s a significant purchase, I’m going to shop it a little.  It is pointless to be so negative with everything.” and that lit her off with a whole round of loudly declaring, “I’m not negative, I’m not negative.  I don’t understand why everything has to be a fight with you.” and it hits me instantly that she’s projecting.  The fight started the same way it always starts -- with her insisting on the opposite of whatever is reasonable.  At that point I walked away.  It was outside, in front of the kids, and she was loud with someone else working nearby and I’m sure he heard it judging by his movements when I came back around.  He only would have heard her and not me.  It was instantly recognizable – she can’t deal in a mature way with the pain of her own negative outlook on life, so she blames others for her own actions.  (By the way, in the end the item was found for the same money with free delivery, free disposal of the old one, and more features.)

Even when the exchange isn't as obvious as this, if you listen closely they will tell you everything about themselves that they will deny is true if they are confronted with it.  Almost like they are speaking in the third-person about themselves.

In fact, quoting from your post after re-reading it, your SO says:  "I don't think us living together would ever work out".

Looking back, do you now believe that to be true?

[Couper]

It is almost like they are standing outside of their own bodies while watching the event unfold and their rational-self is criticizing their irrational-self while their eyes are focused on you.

[Sappho11]

My understanding is that it's because they have a perpetual ax to grind.  Why we non's a problem processing this is because what's taking place could have it's origins in an incident from years, or even decades, before we came on the scene.  This unresolved issue is carried throughout their life and, while they may have removed the crosshairs from the original offender, they have not yet put down their weapon.  It is so hardwired into their psyche that the rules of justice as to who they punishing with their assault do not apply.

Interesting. That makes sense.

Somewhere I read that constant arguing is also a way of filling the internal emptiness that BPDs feel. They need to up the drama in order to escape themselves, and blame others so they don't have to take responsibility for their own (in)actions.

I'm self-employed and work 50+ hours per week. My BPDex is employed part-time, working 30 hours a week. He was long done studying and was supposed to finish an academic paper, which he had been struggling to do for years. Somehow, however, he managed to pin the blame on me for not making any progress on it, claiming he had put it on the back burner "for me". When we were together, he would give me grief for "taking up all of his time" (we barely spent two evenings a week together). When we weren't together, he said he couldn't work on it because he was already weary of thinking about our relationship (aka spending all of his time playing videogames).

And one of the worst "cards" he once played during an argument, telling me: "You've bent me well to your will, I barely dare utter my opinion." That really cut to the core. I'm no wallflower, but I know what it's like not to be heard and making sure people aren't taken advantage of is central to my nature. Worse, it was one of the characteristics which he always claimed to have fallen in love with. I hated this type of oscillation.

So, yes, lack of personal responsibility, blame shifting etc. -- I'm beginning to struggle to remember why I put up with this at all.

A couple of months ago I went through something very similar to what you describe:

She had decided that we needed to replace something in the house.  The kind of thing you do every several years and not an insignificant expense.  Fine, I have no problem with that.  She visited a store and learned this and that and there are all kinds of extra expenses that there hasn't been in the past and all I say is good, we've got a point of reference now, let’s do some shopping around and we’ll make a decision (very similar to another incident that happened days before that in the end I settled on my own and I'm sure she was still sore about but never let it show) and suddenly the whole thing turned on it's head and the volume gets very loud – "Why would any other store be cheaper?  It’s the way things are.  Better to pay someone to deliver it than you hurt your back.  We can pay someone to cart off the old one." (free delivery and disposal is common) and on and on and on like a machine gun and I just calmly say fine, but no harm in shopping a little before making a significant purchase like that and she keeps on and instead of just walking away like I should have done, I said, “Look, this is exactly what you said the other day when I was told the other thing (mentioned above) didn’t exist (but it did, I dropped the issue, completed the transaction myself, and she had egg on her face after she had made a huge issue of a giant nothing burger).  It’s a significant purchase, I’m going to shop it a little.  It is pointless to be so negative with everything.” and that lit her off with a whole round of loudly declaring, “I’m not negative, I’m not negative.  I don’t understand why everything has to be a fight with you.” and it hits me instantly that she’s projecting.  The fight started the same way it always starts -- with her insisting on the opposite of whatever is reasonable.  At that point I walked away.  It was outside, in front of the kids, and she was loud with someone else working nearby and I’m sure he heard it judging by his movements when I came back around.  He only would have heard her and not me.  It was instantly recognizable – she can’t deal in a mature way with the pain of her own negative outlook on life, so she blames others for her own actions.  (By the way, in the end the item was found for the same money with free delivery, free disposal of the old one, and more features.)

Rings very familiar. So... did she later gave you grief for being sensible and making the right choice ("upstaging" her), too?

Even when the exchange isn't as obvious as this, if you listen closely they will tell you everything about themselves that they will deny is true if they are confronted with it.  Almost like they are speaking in the third-person about themselves.

That is an amazing insight. So many things make sense now.

In fact, quoting from your post after re-reading it, your SO says:  "I don't think us living together would ever work out".

Looking back, do you now believe that to be true?

I don't know. Probably. But for very, very different reasons than the location of toothbrushes.

I was always hoping that if we lived together, a lot of problems would disappear, particularly the ever-present contention point of somehow never having "enough time" together. This is probably an idle fantasy, though. He could never make the time, and would never have been able to, while I was expected to be on his beck and call.

The following is what he preached as his ideal, what he had allegedly had with his (live-in) girlfriend before me, but what he allegedly wanted with me and not with her: spending almost every waking minute together, engaging in leisure activities, meeting friends together. In the very beginning he asked me when I would get out of my lease, because to him, a relationship was synonymous with living together. I was overjoyed at the time because I actually desired the same level of closeness (except for only being able to meet friends as a couple, which I just found odd).

Seven months in I still hadn't met a single one of his friends, hadn't stayed over at his place once, and virtually all fun things we had done had been organised by me because he claimed he didn't know places and didn't want to disappoint me.

Still not sure what got into me, considering that I've given better men the boot for much less.

And in true testament to the Zeigarnik effect, I still struggle to figure out why it worked out with his live-in ex (eight years, although he kept insisting she was "the wrong person" for him and that he had never really been in love with her) and not with me, whom he allegedly cherished and admired so much more. I wonder if she was either worse or better at setting boundaries than I was. I do get a feeling she was heavily under his thumb, even though he claimed their relationship to have been a happy one.

Long story short, it would probably have ended in pain at some point, and it's probably for the best that the whole thing crashed and burned sooner rather than later.

[Couper]

Somewhere I read that constant arguing is also a way of filling the internal emptiness that BPDs feel. They need to up the drama in order to escape themselves, and blame others so they don't have to take responsibility for their own (in)actions.

I suspect it can vary depending on their specific circumstances.  Long before I knew what BPD was I had identified in my wife that she had a need to be a perpetual victim and that she was a victim as a result of her own self-sabatoge.  It is a very destructive cycle. 

I'm self-employed and work 50+ hours per week. My BPDex is employed part-time, working 30 hours a week. He was long done studying and was supposed to finish an academic paper, which he had been struggling to do for years. Somehow, however, he managed to pin the blame on me for not making any progress on it, claiming he had put it on the back burner "for me". When we were together, he would give me grief for "taking up all of his time" (we barely spent two evenings a week together). When we weren't together, he said he couldn't work on it because he was already weary of thinking about our relationship (aka spending all of his time playing videogames).

And one of the worst "cards" he once played during an argument, telling me: "You've bent me well to your will, I barely dare utter my opinion." That really cut to the core. I'm no wallflower, but I know what it's like not to be heard and making sure people aren't taken advantage of is central to my nature. Worse, it was one of the characteristics which he always claimed to have fallen in love with. I hated this type of oscillation.

This sounds like another "setting up the pins to knock them down" scenario.  You are right, they will never ever in a million years take responsibility for their own actions.  If you were to leave a hammer laying out on the kitchen table, they would pick it up in one hand, smash the other hand with it, and then say it was your fault for leaving out the hammer. 

So, yes, lack of personal responsibility, blame shifting etc. -- I'm beginning to struggle to remember why I put up with this at all.

Because at the time you were playing by the rules of a sane, rational human being while at the same time they were playing by a different set of rules.  BPD or not, in this world the aggressor sets the rules.
 

Rings very familiar. So... did she later gave you grief for being sensible and making the right choice ("upstaging" her), too?

You have to look at it in the context of the time in which it happened.  A few years ago that would have been precisely the response, something along the lines of, "I'm always the loser, I always get it wrong, you just did this to make me look stupid."  However, this was only two months ago, so a bit more than a year since I "snoozed" her and shortly into this new "era of peace" that seems to have started.  With this particular instance, I cannot say, but later I can recount for you the results of another similar instance in which the conclusion went unacknowledged, but she then immediately started what I would call a proxy war over something entirely unrelated.     

I don't know. Probably. But for very, very different reasons than the location of toothbrushes.

My guess would be that if you were bring up the toothbrush issue with him today, he would have no recollection of it.  At the time he was looking for any instance to justify his "living together" comment to you.  It was sort of like a truthful message in a bottle, whether he realized he was doing it or not.

Similarly, the whole thing regarding his past girlfriend and what he wanted vs. what he had with you vs. what you experienced in reality -- not to question your judgement, but what makes you think he was telling you the truth?  That I was getting lied to was a tough pill for me to swallow.  Honesty is very important to me.  It was only when I began to discover (with proof) that I was being lied to that I understood why so much of the old narrative didn't make sense.  I suspect if you were to talk to the old girlfriend (not recommending it!) that you would be told a very different series of events.

Based on everything you have shared, I think that you dodged a major bullet.

 

[Cromwell]

I often found it was an inner-conflict which just comes out as speech in the vicinity of whoever it is nearby. its not really about me, regardless of the surface level reason. it masks a daily, inner discontent that needs eventually an outlet. the fighting is a form of release, and displacement to a safer target (or a substitute for the target no longer there) from the past.

it sounds quite ironic how miserable they can make the partner and then afterwards say "you are never fun to be around" type thing.

I remember her dancing in the car, turning up the music, in heightened spirits, just after an hour of making me upset, id been upbeat the entire day before seeing her. It was a wake up call, she thrived emotionally when pulled others down to her emotional state. it is a "if im not happy the world cant be either"

now heres your question. enough about him/her

Why did you stick around for the so called 'endless' fighting. many would grab the door handle say "not putting up with this" and leave

my reason is was normalised, I went through personality disordered parenting, so to have similar was not a huge surprise.

To unpack the reasons, involves a bit of self-digging too.

Thanks for an interesting topic.

[cash05458]

I think it is very simple...like vampires and blood...they feed on drama...it's the only time they feel alive and "real"...it ain't complicated...and drama sucks you in...this is the whole point...

[losttrust]

I think it’s as simple as any attention at any cost is preferred to no attention at all. So they stir the pot or leap at any opportunity.   

Bigger problem is what will occur when they’ve used us up.  Who next.  Grandparents loss of golden years to grandchild in rage over nonsense and disjointed thoughts.  These BPD family members are killing us by a million cuts,  if allowed.  I had to toss my kiddo out of the house via hotel accommodation so I could feel emotionally and physically safe and regroup myself. .  I love my son and  sometimes even like him -but his living at home became simply unbearable. Toxic, daily verbal assaults followed by rages to property and ramped up to threats. Now I can think before I choose to respond or not. . Have moments of peace and quiet solitude...unrated .  Dog less jumpy too.  Both our Nerves were shot.  Ptsd from a BPD -sort of a joke right? .

[Rex31807]

The endless fighting is the hardest part. It felt like I was living in fight or flight mode constantly. I felt awful 24/7 because of the daily screaming and yelling. It was hard leaving. I felt guilt for not being there. I see the good in her. I wish with all my heart things were different but they can't be.

It got the the point where the fighting was constant and almost daily. Everything was my fault. The anger was projected onto me. Any little thing could set her off. The housekeeper was a big issue. She would get upset with me because I didn't make sure the housekeeper did a certain task. I asked her to take over managing that and she refused.

I was responsible for inside and outside of the house. I had to make her breakfast in the morning, get her coffee, put her to-go coffee in her car and wait for her to leave before I could go hit the track. It was a miserable existence. Then I would routinely make her lunch. Grocery shopping was my responsibility. Dinner was my responsibility. Paying the bills was my responsibility. House repairs. Car repairs. Her only responsibility was to walk and get in her car and go to work. She does have a stressful job but I have a job too and I never felt like she respected that.

I dreaded when she would come home because the criticism would start and that meant my second shift of cooking, foot rubs and cleaning would begin. I never knew what kind of jab she would throw out there.  She was rarely loving or kind to me.

[Rex31807]

It stems from emotional dysregulation. They can't return to baseline as easy as we can. The cycles keep firing and scenarios start compounding it. The emotional pain is intense and real. It is awful seeing them suffer through this. It's also awful being on the receiving end of the anger. I have been in situations where the emotional dysregulation lasted from Thursday to Sunday night. Then I would be blamed for the wasted weekend and not making her get up and do something. Shen someone is upset with you and it is fight or flight all weekend the rational part of the brain is not available for them to be able to do this.  No matter how hard I tried I couldn't snap her out of it.

In a nutshell I would say it's the inability to return to baseline. These intense emotions keep firing and they build up so I would definitely say that is the reason.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Sappho11,

I refer to these behaviors as the paradox of BPD: those suffering from the disorder want peace, but pick fights and foster chaos; they seek love, but behave in unloving fashion; they fear abandonment, but will drive you away.  In other words, they bring about the outcomes they hope to avoid, which seems counterintuitive to us Nons, but that's BPD.

 LuckyJim

[Cromwell]

Im sorry to hear that Rex. Its a challenge that can't be put into words. I just want to remark how well you've coped and hope in time will heal and decompress.

[Sappho11]

This sounds like another "setting up the pins to knock them down" scenario.  You are right, they will never ever in a million years take responsibility for their own actions.  If you were to leave a hammer laying out on the kitchen table, they would pick it up in one hand, smash the other hand with it, and then say it was your fault for leaving out the hammer. 

Great metaphor. I told this to my fraternal best friend last night and we had a good, albeit cynical laugh. Humour, however black it may be, seems to be a decent coping strategy. "Take life as a comedy, not as a tragedy" -- I forgot which philosopher said that. Obviously easier said than done if you're in the situation at present.

Because at the time you were playing by the rules of a sane, rational human being while at the same time they were playing by a different set of rules.  BPD or not, in this world the aggressor sets the rules.

I've always wrestled with that: Whoever cares less has the most power. Sufficient explanation of the state of the world.

You have to look at it in the context of the time in which it happened.  A few years ago that would have been precisely the response, something along the lines of, "I'm always the loser, I always get it wrong, you just did this to make me look stupid."  However, this was only two months ago, so a bit more than a year since I "snoozed" her and shortly into this new "era of peace" that seems to have started.  (...)

What do you mean by "snoozing" her? Did you guys break up as a kind of wake-up call? I'm happy for you if that worked.

One of my distant acquaintances, whose girlfriend is also diagnosed with BPD, told me that their problems miraculously lifted with the start of the pandemic. I wonder if that's a general trend, BPD sufferers holding on to their non's in such anxious (?) times.

My guess would be that if you were bring up the toothbrush issue with him today, he would have no recollection of it.  At the time he was looking for any instance to justify his "living together" comment to you.  It was sort of like a truthful message in a bottle, whether he realized he was doing it or not.

You're right, and to be fair he gave me lots of such messages, which I chose to ignore. Mea culpa.

Similarly, the whole thing regarding his past girlfriend and what he wanted vs. what he had with you vs. what you experienced in reality -- not to question your judgement, but what makes you think he was telling you the truth?  That I was getting lied to was a tough pill for me to swallow.  Honesty is very important to me.  It was only when I began to discover (with proof) that I was being lied to that I understood why so much of the old narrative didn't make sense.  I suspect if you were to talk to the old girlfriend (not recommending it!) that you would be told a very different series of events.

He was simply an awful liar -- or so I thought. But it's well possible that I overestimated my polygraphic abilities. I do believe his ex was a lot more docile and passive than I was. (She stuck with him even though he had hit her, twice. I told him that would never fly with me, not even once, and he never laid a finger on me.) In hindsight, I'm quite sure he entertained ideas of going back to her; or possibly even more than ideas, in order to patch up his crumbling self-esteem. Even eight months in, four months after she had moved out, she still had all of her stuff at his place, and it didn't bother him one bit. He said I was unreasonable for asking she pick it up. Apparently she was also regularly using his mother's car. It's probably for the best that I'll never know now just how good/bad their relationship was, and how close they were after their separation.

Based on everything you have shared, I think that you dodged a major bullet.

Thank you. I can't remember whether it was you who spoke of a "commuted sentence" to another forsaken Non missing his BPD ex. It does ring true.

[Sappho11]

I often found it was an inner-conflict which just comes out as speech in the vicinity of whoever it is nearby. its not really about me, regardless of the surface level reason. it masks a daily, inner discontent that needs eventually an outlet. the fighting is a form of release, and displacement to a safer target (or a substitute for the target no longer there) from the past.

That makes perfect sense. Good thought.

it sounds quite ironic how miserable they can make the partner and then afterwards say "you are never fun to be around" type thing.

I remember her dancing in the car, turning up the music, in heightened spirits, just after an hour of making me upset, id been upbeat the entire day before seeing her. It was a wake up call, she thrived emotionally when pulled others down to her emotional state. it is a "if im not happy the world cant be either"

How curious, my exBPD actually used to say that as a joke. "Either both of us are happy or none of us." I played along because I thought it innocuous. How wrong I was.

now heres your question. enough about him/her

Why did you stick around for the so called 'endless' fighting. many would grab the door handle say "not putting up with this" and leave

my reason is was normalised, I went through personality disordered parenting, so to have similar was not a huge surprise.

To unpack the reasons, involves a bit of self-digging too.

That's a good question. (Sorry to hear about your rocky upbringing, by the way.) I grew up without a family and have spent virtually my entire life alone. There were always potential suitors but none that appeared to get me. So when my BPDex came along, it seemed like a dream come true. He seemed to understand me on a fundamental level. The whole ordeal of painful loneliness, suddenly gone in an instant. I'd always perceived life as a gigantic struggle, which I just wanted to be over and done with. But when I was with him, I felt contrarily -- that one life, in fact, wasn't enough.

Breaking up with him would have meant returning to my lifelong torment -- which is the reality of my life now again, for better or worse.

I was always hoping we would be able to make it work eventually. In the end I realised that the man I had fallen in love with was largely a projection.

Several people have told me now that I might be able to find his good qualities in another, healthy person. Here's to hoping they are right.

[Sappho11]

I think it’s as simple as any attention at any cost is preferred to no attention at all. So they stir the pot or leap at any opportunity.   

Bigger problem is what will occur when they’ve used us up.  Who next.  Grandparents loss of golden years to grandchild in rage over nonsense and disjointed thoughts.  These BPD family members are killing us by a million cuts,  if allowed.  I had to toss my kiddo out of the house via hotel accommodation so I could feel emotionally and physically safe and regroup myself. .  I love my son and  sometimes even like him -but his living at home became simply unbearable. Toxic, daily verbal assaults followed by rages to property and ramped up to threats. Now I can think before I choose to respond or not. . Have moments of peace and quiet solitude...unrated .  Dog less jumpy too.  Both our Nerves were shot.  Ptsd from a BPD -sort of a joke right? .

That sounds terrible. I'm sorry to hear about your son. Having an afflicted family member must be the worst. I'm glad to hear you've found a way to make things better for yourself.

It stems from emotional dysregulation. They can't return to baseline as easy as we can. The cycles keep firing and scenarios start compounding it. The emotional pain is intense and real. It is awful seeing them suffer through this. It's also awful being on the receiving end of the anger. I have been in situations where the emotional dysregulation lasted from Thursday to Sunday night. Then I would be blamed for the wasted weekend and not making her get up and do something. Shen someone is upset with you and it is fight or flight all weekend the rational part of the brain is not available for them to be able to do this.  No matter how hard I tried I couldn't snap her out of it.

In a nutshell I would say it's the inability to return to baseline. These intense emotions keep firing and they build up so I would definitely say that is the reason.

Yes, this, and the disorder making emotions feel like facts. It's a downward spiral whichever way you look at it.

I've read your anecdotes with great dismay. It just saddens me that there are so many good, loving people being taken advantage of. Hope you are well.

[Cromwell]

I hear you sappho.

For better or worse. I feel i relate. It's a weighing up decision? It was difficult to get the actual point of physically leaving, for some of the same reasons you mention played part of it.

But i did so because what i had was differnet than what i at first believed i had. A form of fools gold.

The suffering that results is 100% related to having attachment and doing so unhealthily.

5 years now since. I've been single no romantic relationships. It felt lonely at times but that's not entirely abnornal.

What i replaced her with was a life defined partially by forging new relationships based on new learned lessons.

When i look back at it, reflect today. The good times together, they felt incredible. But if i dig deeper i realise how desperately lonely i was with her. Subconsciously at least i knew there was something that didn't have what i was looking for, and wishing it could come back isn't real world sensible plan.

Thanks for answering i hope my question was not as direct as i reread it. It took 2 for the relationship, complex interactions, so it just stands to reason to try make sense of it needs each put under spotlight of scrutiny. Well it helps at least for those who have kept a sense of self and not got too sticky glue enmeshed that way.

Thanks for sharing im proud to be on this journey with you. Keep going. Well done

[Rex31807]

When i look back at it, reflect today. The good times together, they felt incredible. But if i dig deeper i realise how desperately lonely i was with her. Subconsciously at least i knew there was something that didn't have what i was looking for, and wishing it could come back isn't real world sensible plan.

That same feeling resonated with me.  When we were doing things it felt as though she wasn't in it with me at times. I would go shopping and walk around stores with her just to be close. I remember one of her episodes happened at a baseball game and she sat there crying the whole time. I couldn't get her to snap out of it. When I bought her a Louis Vuitton purse she snapped out of it and was so happy.

I wanted that connection. I think we had it at times but I don't know what was real. The things she said to put me down were awful. I couldn't imagine ever saying those things to her but she would say any and every nasty thing she could to try and hurt me intentionally.  I don't understand why she wanted to make me feel bad and fight all the time.

I can tell things are about to explode at the house. She is leaving bills unpaid so some basics may get cut off soon and she will play the victim.  She has plenty of money so it's not like she can't afford it. I let detailed instructions on bill payment. She just neglected to do it.

[Sappho11]

I hear you sappho.

For better or worse. I feel i relate. It's a weighing up decision? It was difficult to get the actual point of physically leaving, for some of the same reasons you mention played part of it.

But i did so because what i had was differnet than what i at first believed i had. A form of fools gold.

The suffering that results is 100% related to having attachment and doing so unhealthily.

5 years now since. I've been single no romantic relationships. It felt lonely at times but that's not entirely abnornal.

What i replaced her with was a life defined partially by forging new relationships based on new learned lessons.

When i look back at it, reflect today. The good times together, they felt incredible. But if i dig deeper i realise how desperately lonely i was with her. Subconsciously at least i knew there was something that didn't have what i was looking for, and wishing it could come back isn't real world sensible plan.

Thanks for answering i hope my question was not as direct as i reread it. It took 2 for the relationship, complex interactions, so it just stands to reason to try make sense of it needs each put under spotlight of scrutiny. Well it helps at least for those who have kept a sense of self and not got too sticky glue enmeshed that way.

I'm glad to hear it worked out reasonably well for you, Cromwell. Despite the circumstances and the loneliness. At the end of the day, it's better to be lonely on your own than to be lonely in a relationship. People like you and I are biographically predisposed to trauma bonding, codependency, etc it seems. Even if we work on those issues, we're bound to attract others who are the same.

I once told my exBPD about a humorous quote, "A relationship is like making a fruit salad -- not a smoothie". He said he disagreed and that a "relationship smoothie" was his vision of a "proper" relationship (and from what I can tell, what he'd had with the girlfriend before me). It struck me as odd at first but I finally came around to his view. But of course, as BPDs are wont to, that's exactly when the whole devaluation started. -- I'll try to do better next time.

Thanks for sharing im proud to be on this journey with you. Keep going. Well done

I've noticed you being a wise, wholesome forum presence in general. Thank you for your kind words.

[Couper]

What do you mean by "snoozing" her? Did you guys break up as a kind of wake-up call? I'm happy for you if that worked.

Rather than clutter up your thread, if you go to my profile and find my first post here it might help explain the current state of things.  We're still married and we still live under the same roof with our two kids.  I experienced sort of an awakening that I'm nothing but a pawn in her little game, so I quit playing the game.  I keep up with my responsibilities, earn the money, and do the heavy physical work around the property, I just don't engage with her any more  than is absolutely necessary and I accept that there will never be any equity in this relationship for however much longer it exists.  I don't ask for her opinion and if she wants mine, I don't give it to her.  She spent all last year going around like a fool disgracing herself.  When she'd try to suck me into it, I'd just tell her that her reality is not everyone else's and that I refused to live in her negative universe.  I put one foot in front of the other and try to find the good in each day.  At some point here within the last few months she seems to have either started mirroring me or she has found a new place to deposit her hysteria because she knows I won't play anymore.  Since having snoozed her, it took over a year for that to happen.  It is the longest period of peace I have known in over a dozen years.  Every once in a while, just when I start to think she has magically been cured, something will show through a crack and cause me to take a step back.  My gut tells me she has found somebody new to idealize and when that somebody fails her she will come crashing down.  For the time being, I am just grateful for the break in the daily assaults.

I simply cannot digest the alternate approach that I have seen here of validation and taking the long way around of discussing every issue (God bless those who can).  Even in the past when I have given reassurance or tried to be patient and help, it has just been twisted and thrown back at me.  What really gets me is a couple of years ago I learned that this pattern of behavior goes back 20 years before me and she knew she had problems.  From the moment of saying, "I do" it is like a switch flipped and everything out of her mouth was, "I have trust issues", "I have intimacy issues", blame blame blame, rejection rejection rejection and she bottled it up and saved it, never having said such things to me before.  I'm not trying to launch into a pity party, but I feel like I was duped and I've been cheated out of everything that was supposed to be enjoyable in my young married life and I just can't excuse it because she was knowingly concealing the real her.  If she had told me these things up front I probably wouldn't have married her, but how could I know?  I also found out within the last couple of years that in the months leading up to our wedding, she as at war with her family over the incident from her childhood that I believe caused her BPD.  There were lots of skeletons in their closet and this major battle was concurrently taking place and I was completely left out of it.  What happened to her was wrong and the adults that did nothing about it should have all gone to jail, but she's an adult now and she made a decision to conceal all of this stuff from me (and still does).  If her BPD had happened after we got married, I would have accepted it as the lottery of life just like when someone becomes maimed after an accident and you care for them, but in this case it was hidden from me and I just can't get past seeing her as a fraud.  With all of the reading and video watching I have done on this stuff, I am aghast whenever I see someone that knows they suffer from BPD debate with a therapist whether they should tell their partner and it's not a resounding "yes".  Sorry, but given the damage they can do, I think they have a social responsibility to declare their issue and confront it head-on.

Now I went and made a dissertation anyway and that wasn't my intent to do so on your thread.  When I get going it all just sort of comes out.  I don't share this stuff with people I know (I did once and it was a horrible mistake) and wish I had found this site and been able to identify the problem several years ago.

   

One of my distant acquaintances, whose girlfriend is also diagnosed with BPD, told me that their problems miraculously lifted with the start of the pandemic. I wonder if that's a general trend, BPD sufferers holding on to their non's in such anxious (?) times.

Mine went nuts with the events of last year but, as I mentioned above, I made it clear that I did not support her view of the world.  She spent the whole year as a relationship arsonist and destroyed many of her 20 year friendships and replaced them with new likeminded types with kook conspiracy beliefs.  As a friend of mine would say about other caustic people, "She has a lot of new friends because she doesn't have any old ones". 

He was simply an awful liar -- or so I thought. But it's well possible that I overestimated my polygraphic abilities. I do believe his ex was a lot more docile and passive than I was. (She stuck with him even though he had hit her, twice. I told him that would never fly with me, not even once, and he never laid a finger on me.) In hindsight, I'm quite sure he entertained ideas of going back to her; or possibly even more than ideas, in order to patch up his crumbling self-esteem. Even eight months in, four months after she had moved out, she still had all of her stuff at his place, and it didn't bother him one bit. He said I was unreasonable for asking she pick it up. Apparently she was also regularly using his mother's car. It's probably for the best that I'll never know now just how good/bad their relationship was, and how close they were after their separation.
Thank you. I can't remember whether it was you who spoke of a "commuted sentence" to another forsaken Non missing his BPD ex. It does ring true.

Good for you.  I don't think abuse in any form is to be tolerated.  Physical or psychological.  I think it was me that made the "commuted" comment.  This site didn't even go online until a couple of years after I got married and I sure wouldn't have known what to look for it back then.  I am envious of those of you who are quicker on the uptake.  All the years spent flying-blind seem like such a blur.  There are new people showing up here telling their stories every day.  As common as this seems to be, it's too bad they don't teach it in school.  If only people knew what to look for it could have saved many people from heartache and maybe helped the afflicted get help sooner if those around them knew what to look for.   

[Vincenta]

First of all - excellent, very insightful thread!
 Thanks to Sappho, Cromwell, Rex, Couper, Cash...

Now,  - and based solely on my experiences of a six years relationship with diagnosed BPD ( and probably some other PDs  as NPD...), however - Theme: endless flight, possible reasons:

- Drama , need of attention, simple boredom, trying to fulfill the emptiness

-  enmeshment : why you don’t feel exactly as I do? - As Sappho wrote: the relationship- smoothie!

[Vincenta]

Oops, my fault or something went wrong, only half of my previous message was shown,
Anyway, in addition to the two reasons above 1) drama/boredom and 2) enmeshment, probable two others:
3) Control and testing - trying ( perhaps unconsciously) to check your boundaries
4) the final devaluation phase - nothing matters anyway, everything you say is used against you.

Warmly,

Vincenta