I just feel so incredibly lonely and betrayed.

[blackorchid]

Feeling down yesterday and today.

I just feel so incredibly lonely and betrayed. I know it's an illness. I know he is unwell. But that doesn't help the pain I feel of being abandoned again. And the irony that he feels abandoned isn't lost on me. He is the one who walked out on me and our dog, our home, our life. He knows I'm all alone here. That I have no way of getting home. That aside from lessons I am on by own day in day out and he literally doesn't care.  I mean how can he chose leaving in a poxy hotel accommodation room as a better option than this. We have a beautiful house. I love summer. It has always been my favourite season. But now it's just tainted by him. I long for beach days and trips and BBQs with him.  Last year we got the BBQs but the beaches were closed - covid. But every other summer for as long as I can remember he does this and I never get to make any summer memories with him. It just sucks.

The past couple of days I've wanted to message him but I know it's probably not a good idea. Time just seems to be moving slowly right now...

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[blackorchid]

As I’d sent the SET message only for his clothes. I sent a SET message now for the letter in case it was important.

you’ve said you don’t want me to contact you. I know that’s what you want know. still, a letter has just come for you, so I’m just letting you know. Would you like me to forward it to you, keep it here or send a photo?.

He responded. Thanks no. I know what it’ll be. It’s from the bank. I spoke with them and paid the bill with your money.

So at least I know that that’s paid off and he actually used my savings for that and hopefully all of it was paid for that…

Still feeling the same as this morning. Keeping myself busy around the house. I should add that it just feels hurtful him knowing that this week I have been struggling as he knows how ill I am every week. He will know that I have been barely able to stand, let alone muster the strength to walk our dog. It’s not fair on her too not getting the walks she deserves. It just hurts knowing he doesn’t care right now. My last period in April he was here. Coincidentally it fell on his day off. He saw me faint, shaking and sweating and ran to the chemists to get anything to help. The contrast between that and the last two is just worlds apart. It hurts.

[blackorchid]

Update. He’s added a new message. I’m really happy now.

[formflier]

A few things to confirm...make sure I'm reading this correctly.

He somehow has access to your money/savings/accounts without communicating to you.  Is this correct?

He gets a letter and without opening it he knows what it is and used your money to pay the bill that was inside the letter.

Are you ok with someone having control of your finances that refuses to have conversations with you?

Please confirm are all of these communications via text or email or some type of "non-verbal" thing?

How long since you have spoken to him..either on the phone or in person?

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

Hi FF

Thank you for your concern. 

 No he has no access to my bank account. The savings were what he took when he was in the house last Thursday. I had cash of a mix of dollars, euros and pounds in the house. (My brother is a banker and is concerned about the Turkish economy and told me not to bank them, hence them being in the house, the Turkish lira is terrible now and is loosing value bu the day)

 when he was in the house last week he took them to pay the bill of a loan I didn’t know he had. He says he will pay me back..

I actually I have been thinking and I think this must be a loan taken out to bail out his brother. As it is the EXACT amount that is needed to pay to not do military service. Which I know he paid when he last split from me in 2019. As we were in NC at the time I didn’t know where he got the money from. But he said his brother would be paying him back. I’m guessing that hasn’t happened.

 His brother had then asked for money with more debt in may. Which caused him to escalate no think money/ family debt is a major trigger for him.  He was a successful footballer but has nothing to show for it as his family have leeched every penny he ever made. FYI his bro is a doc. So I don’t understand why he needs help with debt. One night in early May he was drinking so bad crying, I asked what was wrong. He said he didn’t know how to help him with his debt and felt useless. The convo then turned suicidal

We were getting to a place early last year where we could start to have conversations about these things but then Covid happened and he was furloughed and I knew he was EXTREMELY sensitive about finances, especially as I was now the breadwinner and spying for everything so I didn’t bring it up.

Your right he is assuming that that is what the letter is for.

The last time I saw him was last Thursday. No phone converataions. The SET message yesterday as started earlier about his belongings and the SET message today about the letter have been our only contact. Also when he said I miss her in response to an Instagram story of our dog. .

[formflier]

So describe the agreement you guys worked out prior to him taking the money?

How did that conversation go?

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

I offered to help him. He said no. He doesn’t need my help. He has his family and they will help.  (the irony) 

this was after a letter arrived I think in the 2nd week. I was shocked to open the letter and read final demand. (He asked me to open the letter and send him a photo)
Now looking back I know why he was so stressed. But i just felt  resentment. May was the first month that he paid the rent since the pandemic. Due to another lockdown I had no lessons and the kids didn’t want online this time (coincided with a holiday) so my money was low. Luckily he was back to full time. I’ll pay he said. Don’t stress about money. I’ve got it

About a week later he started getting stressed asking when will I have the money to pay him back the rent. He needed it for the bank. The bank was calling. I was confused. Why are the bank calling I asked. But he wouldn’t explain.

I offered again when he came to collect his things. Again he said no and he has his family for that he doesn’t need me.
I left the house as he didn’t want me there. He messaged and said he’ll take it and he’ll pay me back. Thanks. Then he messaged to say he had left. That he’ll come tomorrow. But he never came

[formflier]

Hmm..

So..where was the conversation where he asked for the money, you agreed to it..and then he took it.  (again..I may be missing something)

It sounds like he did get money from you..right?    Did you agree ahead of time that he would get this money?

I appears there was lots of discussion, but perhaps no agreement.

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

No there was no real conversation/ agreement. The letter arrived. I offered to help due to the seriousness of the letter. He said no. He has his family for that.

He came to collect his things. Again I offered to help. Again he got angry and said no.

Both times he didn’t want to engage in a conversation.

Then he messaged to say he took the money and will pay me back. Thanks.

[formflier]

Again..trying to clarify.

You seem to have offered many times and he EXPLICITLY said NO.  (Do I have that right?)

He came to get his things (are these the "boxed up things" or things he wanted you to "box up"?)...or are they different things.

He leaves with his things and at the point of him leaving he was still saying NO to help and you guys had no further conversation about him taking or being loaned money.

Then..it seems like days later he messages and says in fact he TOOK the money and will pay you back.  And there was no further "ask" or anything...he just TOOK it without your agreement (although he did know you were offering and he has said no)

Do I have the chain of events right?

He didn't get it from the bank (correct?) so he must know you "hiding spot" or something at your house.  And was able to access this without your knowledge.

How do you feel about how he went about taking what you had offered ?

When is he going to pay you back?

Are we talking about $100...$1000...$10,000  (US Dollars)?...just trying to get a feel for this.

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

No there was no real conversation/ agreement. The letter arrived. I offered to help due to the seriousness of the letter. He said no. He has his family for that.

He came to collect his things. Again I offered to help. Again he got angry and said no.

Both times he didn’t want to engage in a conversation.

Then he messaged to say he took the money and will pay me back. Thanks.

I think I have followed along well enough to take a swing at this.    

I am going to start here.   our partners have undeveloped or maldeveloped processing skills.     they don't negotiate or communicate their way through life.   they tend to just 'do' what they want in the moment to get what they want in the moment with little or no thought to anyone else's welfare.

to be successful in this type of relationship we have to have well developed and well defined processing skills.    we have to have excellent communication skills and well defined boundaries.

when he came to the house to get his clothes he 'took' your security savings.   all of them.   the savings you would use in case of emergency.   the savings you need to manage a trip home.   the savings you would use if you had an illness or the dog required a vet.    he took them for an undisclosed reason.    something he won't discuss with you.     he took them with a vague promise of repayment.   do you think that repayment is likely?

I know you want to salvage this relationship.   I know you want this relationship to work.    I know you are hurting.     What I think is true is to have a successful relationship respect is necessary.     respect is a two way street.     we can't just sit and hope for it.   or plead for it.     we have to earn it and in a way demand it.

that comes with boundaries.  our boundaries.    why should he provide any respect and consideration if you are willing to accept any treatment or appease him to stay with him?   do you think that is fair to say?

the offer for the money is history,... you can't change what you offered.    you can pick up his communication to pay you back.    do you want to do that?

'ducks

[blackorchid]

Yes babyducks has it right.

When he came to collect his things he took it from the spot in the house. He messaged me after and told me and said he will pay me back in monthly installments.


I just want to talk to him. I'm really struggling now

[babyducks]

the offer for the money is history,... you can't change what you offered.    you can pick up his communication to pay you back.    do you want to do that?

Do you want the money back?

[blackorchid]

I’m not concerned about the money right now. It was savings for when I go home to England again which I can’t do now anyway due to Covid rules

[formflier]

Do you eventually want the money back?  When is his first payment?

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

He just said he would pay $50-$100 a month back. It was a few hundred dollars. 

Which I doubt. I found out through his friend today that he has checked himself into a hotel for a couple of nights. Would love to know where he got the money for that from. Ha! I just really hope that he paid the bank because it’s serious letters that are coming through

[formflier]

Where was he living before checking into a hotel?

If you are curious how he can afford that..why not ask him a direct question?

If you are curious about if he used the money to actually pay the issue (whatever it is) in the bank letter..why not ask him?

How do you feel when thinking about how all this has transpired?

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

Yesterday when I told him another letter had come from the bank. He said ik it’s not important I have spoken to the bank and paid the outstanding fee with your money.

I think if I ask him he will just block me. As in the past he has blocked me across everything after he moved out. Don’t think he will answer me.

He’sput a photo on Instagram “I wanted to be alone and now I am lonely”

I feel like I’ve been punched in the gut. I have barely been able to function today. I’ve done a good job the past five weeks of keeping the tears in. But today they have flooded out.

[formflier]

I feel like I’ve been punched in the gut. I have barely been able to function today. I’ve done a good job the past five weeks of keeping the tears in. But today they have flooded out.

 

You've been through a lot and we've asked you lots of questions and raised lots of issues.  It can be very emotional and uncomfortable to look at this stuff.

What can you do to focus on yourself..care for yourself and perhaps just sit with your feelings this evening? 

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

Thanks for the virtual hugs  they are much needed.

It’s coming up midnight here so I’m just lying in bed.

I’m trying to make sense of the past week weeks and just coming up cold.

I just come back to again and again that I want a conversation with him.

I’ll try to sleep. It’s been evading me every night. But I’ll try.

[blackorchid]

Morning everyone. Still feeling bad this morning. Have woken up to some messages from his work friend. His asking if he should try talking to him. Does anyone think that would be a good idea?

[babyducks]

Morning everyone. Still feeling bad this morning. Have woken up to some messages from his work friend. His asking if he should try talking to him. Does anyone think that would be a good idea?

Talk to him about what?   What would the goal be?

[blackorchid]

I don’t know. He keeps saying it to me. He said that he had refused to take his days off and so they told him to take a couple of days off to sort himself out after everything that’s happened. He didn’t explain further.

He says that it’s clear that he has some inner turmoil now and wants to help him.

[formflier]

He keeps saying it to me. 

Who keeps saying what?

If you could have a conversation with your pwBPD, what would you like to say to him?

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

Sorry his friend at work keeps messaging me and saying he wants to talk to him. I think it may be a bad idea though…

[blackorchid]

So the only time I’ve tried calling him was late Tuesday when I was ill and needed help with walking the dog. Couldn’t stand.

He has just messaged me. Did you call me last week.

Yes. I replied


Hes asked why.


I mean Is it just me or is this pointless. He would know I tried to call him and he saw my name in his phone

[formflier]

Sorry his friend at work keeps messaging me and saying he wants to talk to him. I think it may be a bad idea though…

Why does this friend need to involve you in his discussions...is he looking for your permission or ?

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

I think he’s confused by the situation. Wants to help. But is at a loss regarding how pwBPD is acting. Maybe never come across such behaviour before?

[babyducks]

I mean Is it just me or is this pointless. He would know I tried to call him and he saw my name in his phone

we touched on this a bit upstream in this thread.      what are his limitations in functioning in a relationship?    and can you honestly accept his limitations and work around them?

h's just messaged me blaming me for everything, he drinks because i make him angry, he created a tinder account because i made him angry and so on.

he's drinking escalated and he kept taking my money which was what started it this time

tinder is unacceptable to me

then he asked to borrow 25 dollars...

He got home. Said that he has discussed it with his new BFF (he seems to become insanely close to a new person every time he splits), this person has never met me. And that after talking it through with him , the guy has made him realise how bad we are for each other that we can’t be together any more and that’s it it’s over. When I went to speak he wouldn’t listen. Said there’s nothing to say. He’s made the decision. It’s over. We’re finished.  To not go over the same things again. We’re done. I tried to speak and he immediately got angry and said if I try to talk he will leave the house and go to a hotel.

But maybe a week later he started getting irritated asking when I was paying the rent back as he had to pay the bank, but wouldn’t explain what at the bank needed paying back

If you are in this type of relationship it is important to have realistic expectations for what the relationship can be in terms of consistent respect, trust and support, honesty and accountability, and in terms of negotiation and fairness, or expectations of non-threatening behavior.

Let me ask you blackorchid, can he consistently be respectful?   and if he isn't, can you get yourself in place to not be injured by it?

Can he provide support?    the support you need?   and if he is unable to provide support do you have other support systems in place to help you?

Can he be honest with you?    can you protect yourself from dishonest financial dealings?

Is this relationship even available to you?

I understand you want to save the relationship.    Still I think its important you have a clear eyed honest understanding of what that means.    

How did your therapy appointment go?

'ducks

[blackorchid]

Hi guys

sorry for the late reply, this week has been exhausting in a lot of ways (work, him, friends, family) I've literally had no time or brain power to come on here. Sorry

How did your therapy appointment go?

Therapy went ok, but it was intense.  We didn't really get to touch on him.  She gave me a lot of homework to do, including writing a timeline of my life, which has been draining. In her words my life reads like a horror show.

My parents have both had drinking problems and so him drinking excessively april/may was a massive trigger for me, hence my explosion and the argument on may 24th.
I guess there will be more to unpack their with her as it goes on.

Therapist seemed nice, she lived and worked in England for 18 years so think I've struck lucky with finding her.

 


After his message about the call on monday, he messaged later saying he'd start paying the money back when he gets paid this week coming.

he messaged again late on Tuesday, congratulating the england football win and asking what i was doing .  the he started with the dog, he misses her can he come and walk her one day. Ok I said.  He then asked about my mum and wanting to know if she knew that he had left.  Last time in 2018 when I said yes it seemed to set him back so I said no, he wanted to know why and I said because she's found a lump and is waiting for tests so I didn't want to stress her out, then he was questioning why she isn't messaging him. I said probably because shes stressed right now.

He then said could he come now. recycling what is the next phase of his cycle: we can meet as sex buddies,  we're better like that.  I had gone to another room and hadn't answered when I came back, he had deleted the messages, I asked what he had put but he said nevermind. (i'd seen the notification and read messages on my home screen but hadnt been on whatsapp so he didnt know I'd read them). Then he asked if I had packed his things. Asking if I missed him, if i missed him for him or just missed sex. He said he only missed sex.  Then asked again about my mum.  Said he was tired and went to bed.

Wednesday he messaged again, same messages deleted within minutes of me not answering..

He then asked if he could come and see the dog. I said ok. He turned up an hour later drunk. Started calling me all my pet names. Saying he missed his home. Missed the dog.  Missed me but that I have a problem with my brain, that he loves everything about me except that.
He shortly afterwards fell asleep on the couch. I slept too. He woke up in the morning, showered, sounded irritated asking where he's bathrobe was, expecting it to be in the bathroom. Embraced me, gave the dog some love and left.

[babyducks]

He then said could he come now. recycling what is the next phase of his cycle: we can meet as sex buddies,  we're better like that.  I had gone to another room and hadn't answered when I came back, he had deleted the messages, I asked what he had put but he said nevermind. (i'd seen the notification and read messages on my home screen but hadnt been on whatsapp so he didnt know I'd read them). Then he asked if I had packed his things. Asking if I missed him, if i missed him for him or just missed sex. He said he only missed sex.  Then asked again about my mum.  Said he was tired and went to bed.

How do you feel about how this is developing?   Are you okay with him just returning as if nothing happened?     Are you okay with the suggestion of being sex buddies?

how are you responding to him when he talks like this?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[blackorchid]

How do you feel about how this is developing?   Are you okay with him just returning as if nothing happened?     Are you okay with the suggestion of being sex buddies?

how are you responding to him when he talks like this?

I don’t feel great and I feel like I’m in limbo. I feel like if initiate contact he will pull away and so im stuck waiting. But I don’t even know if/when he will contact again. Nothing since he left for work after turning up drunk.

I don’t like the suggestion of sex buddies but that seems to be his pattern of how he returns from past experience.

As he deleted the message I made out that I hadn’t seen it. My responses are pretty short. I guess I don’t want to say anything that can be misinterpreted and him pull away again

[formflier]

Well, there are some things where "ambiguity" is ok in relationships and other things where clarity is important, even if it is upsetting to the other party.

Plus, different people have different values, so please don't hear judgment either way about "sex buddies" being ok or not ok.  It really doesn't matter what FF would say about that...I'm much more interested in how blackorchird feels about that.

Since you have a safe place (here at BPDfamily), are you up for working out how big a deal or "dealbreaker" this is for you?

I would encourage you to break this into two parts.

1.  Clarify your values about this.
then and only then
2.  We can talk about how to communicate these values.

How does this idea sound?

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

Well, there are some things where "ambiguity" is ok in relationships and other things where clarity is important, even if it is upsetting to the other party.

Plus, different people have different values, so please don't hear judgment either way about "sex buddies" being ok or not ok.  It really doesn't matter what FF would say about that...I'm much more interested in how blackorchird feels about that.

Since you have a safe place (here at BPDfamily), are you up for working out how big a deal or "dealbreaker" this is for you?

I would encourage you to break this into two parts.

1.  Clarify your values about this.
then and only then
2.  We can talk about how to communicate these values.

How does this idea sound?

Best,

FF

Thank you FF for creating such a safe space in which to answer this. 

I don’t love the idea of this but have done it in the past as it does always seem to be his stepping stone to coming back. I was thinking about it last night and reflecting on how baby ducks’ said he’s scared of his emotions and scared of raging (why he wanted me out the house to collect his things). Maybe this is his way of testing the waters and controlling his emotions? If

As pathetic as it sounds part of me thinks at least this way I get to see him and if it leads to a resolution all the better. It’s been a long 6 weeks and I just feel like if this leads to him coming back then ok

[babyducks]

blackorchid

Maybe this is his way of testing the waters and controlling his emotions?

this quote below is from Margalis Fjelstad's book: Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist.   You mentioned you were going to get the book on kindle.   the list really accurately displays how a person with BPD processes their emotions.   it describes how the illness functions and the emotional instability it creates.     people with BPD have harmfully intense chaotic emotions and maladaptive ways of coping.   its not a deliberate decision...pwBPD don't consciously think "oh I am going avoid feeling X by doing Y.   

people with BPD have:

- Emotional neediness, which may be covered up by a facade of independence
- Sudden emotional outbursts of rage and despair that seem random
- Belief that the emotions of the moment are totally accurate and will last forever
- Inaccurate memory of emotional events, even changing the meaning of the events after the fact
- Seeing their emotions as being caused by others or by events outside themselves, with no belief that they have any sort of control over their emotions
- Believing that the only way to change how they feel is to get other people or events to change
- Ongoing intense anxiety or fear

I would say he is definitely testing the waters.   in the same way he has done it in the past.   he has a sudden emotional outburst of rage and despair.   he ends the relationship abruptly with a lot of push / pull about his stuff.    he blames his emotions on you.   he blames the chaos on you.   you absorb the chaos and blame but get very tired.    once the emotional crisis begins to subside he begins to drift back.

I would not say he is controlling his emotions.    I would say he is viewing events in ways that make him feel more comfortable at your expense.

You mentioned that both your parents had a drinking problem.    What the experts at CODA,org  tell us is that children who grew up in families where addictions existed have our own deeply rooted behaviors.    typically we attempt to use others – our mates, friends, and even our children, as our sole source of identity, value and well being, and as a way of trying to restore within us the emotional losses from our childhoods.

'ducks

[formflier]

It’s been a long 6 weeks and I just feel like if this leads to him coming back then ok

It is entirely possible this leads to him coming back.  (how many leaving and coming back cycles so far?)

It is also entirely LIKELY that this would result in little change in the "dynamic" or the "dance" you guys do in your relationship.

I feel like you and I have built some rapport, so please allow me to suggest from where I'm sitting...you are NOT a fan of "the dance" you guys do in the relationship.  Is that a fair statement?

Very different than saying you don't want a relationship with him anymore.

I want to make sure I accurately understand your feelings first, then work on next steps.

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

Honestly too many leaving and coming back cycles to count. It was around 1 every 9 months since I moved here in 2012. Last year was the first year that he didn’t do it. The last one was august 2019

It is also entirely LIKELY that this would result in little change in the "dynamic" or the "dance" you guys do in your relationship.

I feel like you and I have built some rapport, so please allow me to suggest from where I'm sitting...you are NOT a fan of "the dance" you guys do in the relationship.  Is that a fair statement?

Yes I would say that that’s a fair statement. More than a fair statement. And hear we have a built up a rapport FF and I am so grateful for your support here

[blackorchid]

He messaged me in the night “what are you doing”. Around 1am. For once I had actually fell asleep. Have been quite insomniac-like since he left. I woke at 4:30 and said I was sleeping. He had been online around 10 mins earlier, so I guess he’s not sleeping either. When he woke up this morning he apologised for disturbing me. I said it didn’t disturb me. This evening he’s messaged the usual. How’s the dog. How are you.

[formflier]

Do you normally check your phone when you wake up like that?

I wonder if that might be contributing to insomnia. 

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

You could be right…intend to wake and look at phone to see the time

[blackorchid]

Does anyone have any ideas on what to say when he says he misses our dog?

[blackorchid]

Or what to reply to “do you believe we’ve finished? “

[formflier]

Well, let's start out by asking what you would like to say?  From there perhaps we can change it a bit depending on your goal.

If your goal is to get back together with him, then I would recommend saying something neutral and perhaps letting him know when you are taking the dog for a walk to the park, let him know he is welcome.

Perhaps he comes..you can keep it light and casual.

For the "do you believe we've finished"...honestly I'd ask him what that means.

Maybe "not sure what you mean by that?"

or

"Perhaps we could chat about this more while walking the dog."

Take a big picture look for a moment.  Anything you can do to get away from cryptic communication is likely better.  All you can do is give him opportunities for better and try to not get "hooked" by the weird/cryptic stuff.

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

Thanks FF that makes sense… I’ll try that.

[blackorchid]

He said he was going to come after work yesterday, then late afternoon he received a message for me from my dads friend. Think he got our numbers confused. He called me about the message and said maybe I will come maybe I won’t. Then he didn’t turn up. He said he might come later as he’s going to meet his cousin who is passing through the city on their way to vacation. I called him later. He said he wasn’t coming. Got annoyed for talking and hung up.

Today he messaged me “hi”
I kept it light: hi how are you

He replied fine. Then half an hour later sent have you packed my things.

[formflier]

Have you invited him on a dog walk yet?

The key is that you go and walk/enjoy..etc etc...regardless of if he shows up.

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

No as he messaged to say he was coming, I didn’t say it. He’s just messaged a few minutes ago asking if my family will come this summer. I said not atm, England still had Turkey on the red list. What about yours. He said they have nowhere to stay. I said they could stay here. He’s just answered. No you’re there so they can’t….

He knows what time and where I walk With her every day. I feel like putting it into conversation now is a bit out of context. I’m thinking to wait till the next time he mentions her?

[formflier]

Your feelings and desires are WORTH advocating for.  No reason to have to wait and "sneak them in" here and there.

Maybe switch it up and take the dog at a different time on an extra walk. 

I have a hard time putting my finger on it, but there is something about the home and his stuff there that is triggering or he is trying to do a "power thing" over.  Hopefully someone else sees this and can perhaps flesh it out a bit better.

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

Your feelings and desires are WORTH advocating for.  No reason to have to wait and "sneak them in" here and there.

Maybe switch it up and take the dog at a different time on an extra walk. 

I have a hard time putting my finger on it, but there is something about the home and his stuff there that is triggering or he is trying to do a "power thing" over.  Hopefully someone else sees this and can perhaps flesh it out a bit better.

Best,

FF

I wish I could walk her at a different time, but summer temperature limit is to early mornings and late nights, which is adding to my tiredness

[blackorchid]

I have a hard time putting my finger on it, but there is something about the home and his stuff there that is triggering or he is trying to do a "power thing" over.  Hopefully someone else sees this and can perhaps flesh it out a bit better.

Best,

FF

Yes I would love anyone’s insight into what’s going on there. I’m not sure if it’s a bit of a push/pull cycle. He gets one cm closer then pulls back with talking about packing his things.
Or if its something else

[formflier]

Maybe push pull is part of it.  His stuff and the house seem to be constant issues.  So...I would recommend you ignore that (don't get drawn into those discussions) and offer to get together at other locations.

Lots of this is "tea leaf reading".  Anyway..it's worth a try.

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

I think tea leaf reading would be clearer and easier 

He turned up last night. Very drunk. Misses me etc.

Now he’s woken up and is packing another bag of stuff. Saying we’re better as friends.

Whiplash doesn’t even cover it

[blackorchid]

Ok he just left. He turned up extremely drunk. Ordered some food to sober up. Then he wanted to make out. Saying he missed me. He got a call. Then fell asleep on my lap on the sofa. The food arrived I woke him up, barely. He ate he slept. Woke up in the morning. Passionately kissed me. Then said we’re better like this. As friends. When we were together we weren’t like this. Went to shower and was rushing for the work bus. But still found 5-10 mins to pack another bag. Gave me a hug. Another kiss. I was uptight, tense. He felt it. Don’t be angry with me he said. And left

[blackorchid]

Oh and as he was getting up. He was curious about my mum again. Why isn’t she messaging me? She always messages me? I said she’s stressed, she’s got lots of appointments she’s found a lump. She’s worried. That’s why. Again it’s like he’s not even listening to what I’m saying. Just replies but why isn’t she messaging me. She must know I’ve left. That’s why. I just replied she’s stressed. Again he wanted to know why she’s not messaging him, she always messaged him and they would talk but now silence. I just said she’s found a lump. He said I hope she’s ok and went to shower.

Also last night and again this morning I was quizzed if I’d been with other men and hit with a resounding I don’t believe you

[babyducks]

oh my goodness blackorchid.

I find your recent posts concerning.

In a way your posts remind me of another member here.   She was in very difficult circumstances with her husband who was somewhere on the BPD/NPD spectrum.

She often wanted us to tell her, what she could say or do to appease him.   What would make him happy so he would stay with her.   Or how to fix him.    

Of course we couldn't do that.      Even if there were some magic set of words or tricks, would it be appropriate to give them to her, knowing she would use to continue a very unhealthy situation?

Does your mother know he has left again?

Can you tell us clearly and simply where are your boundaries around his behavior?    

Clearly you don't think this is okay because if you did, you wouldn't be posting here.

'ducks

[blackorchid]

Yes she knows.

Boundaries are kinda non existent atm I guess.

No I don’t think this behaviour is ok.

It’s exhausting me and I’m doing what I can to take care of me.

It’s ironic because the argument started because of his drinking. (Which of course I was the problem and the reason for drinking). Now he’s left it looks like he’s drinking more than ever before. Only now I’m less angry and more worried and concerned.

[formflier]

How many times has the turned up at your place drunk and you've turned him away?

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

I haven’t. For him to get here he has to spend an obscene amount on a taxi. He’s living in the next town. So I wouldn’t feel like I could turn him away

[formflier]

What benefit is there to you and the relationship for you to spend time around him (in your home or out) when he is drunk?

Back to the most recent story.  Did he call you before he spent all that money on a taxi to make sure you are home?  Did he ask if this is ok?

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

For this relationship to change you have to be the one to change.     You have to be the one to change it.   

He isn't going to do it.   This is not 100% on him.   You are going to have to take ownership of better behavior and better choices.

If you make better choices and model better behavior he may follow you down the path to a more stable relationship.    He may not.    That is a risk you'll have to take.   if you keep doing the same things you have been doing,... you are going to get the same treatment you have always gotten.

It is also entirely LIKELY that this would result in little change in the "dynamic" or the "dance" you guys do in your relationship.

He shows up very drunk.    This is a reoccurring pattern.   He has been drinking to excess for a while now.    You've fought about this in the recent past.   Drinking is hard for you because of your family history.    Still you are more concerned about the money he spent on the taxi than on your comfort and safety in your own home?    Can you help me understand why his decision to drink and spend an obscene amount of money on a taxi means you should spoken too and treated in ways that most would consider abuse?   

Your feelings and desires are WORTH advocating for.  No reason to have to wait and "sneak them in" here and there.

You've been very good at describing what he has said and done.   very thorough at describing what he is thinking..  I am still interested in hearing what you think and what you are doing.     You are part of this dynamic also and what you feel and what you think are worth advocating for.     If you can't advocate for yourself here, on these boards where it is safe... you'll have a harder time doing it with him.   Consider this practice for doing it later in real life.

What are you doing to take care of yourself?    It takes a great deal of emotional strength to be in a relationship with a pwBPD and not be injured by it.    What are you doing to build or rebuild your emotional strength?

blackorchid I am going to speak plainly.     Just like we talked about upstream you are responsible for 100% of your 50% of the relationship.    If you allow him into the house very drunk, if you engage with him when he asks if you have been with other men, if you cuddle with him on the sofa before he passes out... then... lets be honest...you have a role in what happens too.    Can you agree with that?

If you want to see him when he isn't drunk and abusive, why not take FF advice and ask to spend time with the dog.   at a neutral place... some place in public where better behavior can occur?    if you want better behavior you will have to model it and create opportunities for it to happen.     What did you think was going to happen when he showed up drunk?    Did you think anything positive was going to occur from that?

'ducks

[blackorchid]

for some reason I can't access the site on my phone, due to the location denied and I don't have a VPN installed on my phone so I havent been able to read your reponses but I will do. Thank you for them

I'm just heading out now.

He has been messaging me all day. He has had a gigantic tattoo put on his leg. This coming from the man who hates tattoos and is very vocal to me about them every time a friend gets one.  He has messaged me 6 times asking if I like it and what I think. I just finished work now after a lonnnnnggg day, so I haven't responded.  I'm so shocked that he even got one. But especially one so big. He really isn't acting like himself anymore at all.

[formflier]

I would suggest "I'll have to give that some thought.." as the answer.

Perhaps follow up with.."I'm going to walk (dogs name)  and give time.  It would be nice to catch up if you can join me."

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

I went with..


I'm shocked...Are you happy with it? Do you like it?

And I got

"you are controlling me. always" "I always wanted a tattoo"


so many people have messaged me today, shocked...saying he has lost his mind or something similar... and all saying that he hates tattoos why would he do this...his best friends' all messaging the same...


but yeah of course it comes back to me "controlling him" again. sure.

[formflier]

No need to argue about "controlling".

Did you invite him to a neutral location or dog walk?

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

No need to argue about "controlling".

Did you invite him to a neutral location or dog walk?

Best,

FF

I just replied, would you be shocked if i got a tattoo.  He said yes. Then I tried to neutralize the tone and asked if it hurt... no reply.

What benefit is there to you and the relationship for you to spend time around him (in your home or out) when he is drunk?

Back to the most recent story.  Did he call you before he spent all that money on a taxi to make sure you are home?  Did he ask if this is ok?

Best,

FF

there's no benefit to him spending time with him when his drunk as he's too drunk too actually have a meaningful talk and he's just passing out, waking up and leaving.


He send whatsapp messages that made no sense just letters. I replied what? one had random letters then 30 mins than random letters, i asked what.

"im dont der nk qnd i wm coming" was when i guessed he was coming and asked where are you and got a reply of wait

"in cinonf" i asked what and where are you. no reply 5 mins later the doorbell rang.

In the morning he did hand me some euros towards paying me back, saying if I don't take it he'll only spend it.

[blackorchid]

For this relationship to change you have to be the one to change.     You have to be the one to change it.   

He isn't going to do it.   This is not 100% on him.   You are going to have to take ownership of better behavior and better choices.

If you make better choices and model better behavior he may follow you down the path to a more stable relationship.    He may not.    That is a risk you'll have to take.   if you keep doing the same things you have been doing,... you are going to get the same treatment you have always gotten.

I understand that but I honestly don't know how to do that when our interaction is so erratic. I'm trying to find the time to read things but this week my schedule is insane and I don't even have time to get my workouts in.

He shows up very drunk.    This is a reoccurring pattern.   He has been drinking to excess for a while now.    You've fought about this in the recent past.   Drinking is hard for you because of your family history.    Still you are more concerned about the money he spent on the taxi than on your comfort and safety in your own home?    Can you help me understand why his decision to drink and spend an obscene amount of money on a taxi means you should spoken too and treated in ways that most would consider abuse?   

I've never thought of him turning up drunk as abuse so that's something to think about.

I guess I feel like I have to let him in.  That it's my responsibility. After all there is also noone is the city for him.

You've been very good at describing what he has said and done.   very thorough at describing what he is thinking..  I am still interested in hearing what you think and what you are doing.     You are part of this dynamic also and what you feel and what you think are worth advocating for.     If you can't advocate for yourself here, on these boards where it is safe... you'll have a harder time doing it with him.   Consider this practice for doing it later in real life.

What are you doing to take care of yourself?    It takes a great deal of emotional strength to be in a relationship with a pwBPD and not be injured by it.    What are you doing to build or rebuild your emotional strength?

Honestly, my thoughts and feelings change multiple times throughout the day. I hate seeing him so drunk and passed out because it must mean he's suffering and is pain. Yet, I also feel disgust at seeing him so drunk.  As I have said it is a very sensitive topic and it's wrapped up in feelings of my dad and not being able to "save him". I'm trying to keep my routine going. working, working out, reading, zoom chats etc. The football definitely helped with keeping me busy and occupied in the evening

blackorchid I am going to speak plainly.     Just like we talked about upstream you are responsible for 100% of your 50% of the relationship.    If you allow him into the house very drunk, if you engage with him when he asks if you have been with other men, if you cuddle with him on the sofa before he passes out... then... lets be honest...you have a role in what happens too.    Can you agree with that?

Yes, I agree with that but abandonment issues are so big for him, I feel like turning him away would only exacerbate things and lead to more distance. That's why I let him in.

If you want to see him when he isn't drunk and abusive, why not take FF advice and ask to spend time with the dog.   at a neutral place... some place in public where better behavior can occur?    if you want better behavior you will have to model it and create opportunities for it to happen.     What did you think was going to happen when he showed up drunk?    Did you think anything positive was going to occur from that?

'ducks

I didn't think anything positive would occur.  But if he has split me back maybe it helps him in some way by coming. I don't know.

I'm going to leave messaging him for today and suggest to meet on Monday or whatever day off he has next week. It's our dogs birthday and yes, I'm that person who makes a bday cake for the dog  so I'll ask him to walk on that day...

[formflier]

In the morning he did hand me some euros towards paying me back, saying if I don't take it he'll only spend it.

Hey...so you guys were physically together or did he send this to you electronically?

Has he ever sent you "nonsense" messages before?   just letters and stuff?  How has that played out before?

What do you think would happen if you didn't response to gibberish and ONLY responded to a kind/respectful message from him?

I'm curious about your thoughts about inviting him to a neutral location.  Have you tried that yet? 

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

Sorry this was saturday morning after he showed up Friday night drunk.

No, he hasn't sent messages like that before. I guess that he was too drunk to type (?)

I think I would be waiting a long time for a kind message atm tbh. After the tattoo messages yesterday I'm going to wait a couple of days and then message him

[babyducks]

I've never thought of him turning up drunk as abuse so that's something to think about.

this list is from another spot on this site.    this is emotional abuse:

EMOTIONAL ABUSE
Also called "Psychological or Verbal Abuse"
- false accusations
- name calling and finding fault
- verbal threats
- playing "mind games"
- making victim think she/he is stupid, or crazy
- humiliating victim
- overpowering victim's emotions
- disbelieving victim
- bringing up past issues
- inappropriate expression of jealousy
- degrading victim
- putting victim down, not defending her
- blame the victim for things
- turning the situation against the victim
- laughing in victim's face
- silence, ignoring victim
- refusing to do things with or for victim
- always getting own way
- neglecting victim
- pressuring victim
- expecting victim to conform to a role
- comparing victim to others
- suggested involvement with other women or men
- making victim feel guilty
- using certain mannerisms or behavior as a means of control (eg. snapping fingers, pointing)
- threatening to get drunk or stoned unless... .
- manipulation
- starting arguments
- withholding affection
- holding grudges and not really forgiving
- lying
- threatening to leave or commit suicide
- treating victim as a child
- having double standards for victim
- saying one thing and meaning another
- denying or taking away victim's responsibilities
- not keeping commitments
- insisting on accompanying victim to the doctor's office
- deliberately creating a mess for victim to clean
- preventing victim from getting or taking a job
- threatening her with anything (words, objects)
- refusing to deal with issues
- minimizing or disregarding victim's work or accomplishments
- demanding an account of victim's time/routine
- taking advantage of victim's fear of something
- making her do illegal things

I guess I feel like I have to let him in.  That it's my responsibility. After all there is also noone is the city for him.

these are all judgement calls.   and one size does not fit all.     if you feel he is too drunk to be on the street alone than allowing him to sleep it off is one thing.    engaging with him so that he falls asleep on your lap is entirely different.  I would suggest the message that sends is 'its okay to show up drunk'.   

boundaries aren't just physical things.   they can be verbal things.   

I won't discuss this until you are sober.
Its not okay for you to be here this intoxicated.
Its worrying that you are drinking this much.

when he asks if you have been with other men, and then refuses to believe you - don't follow him down this rabbit hole.   

I'm not answering that question, its offensive.
I refuse to allow this type of discussion.

you are not going to have good interactions with him until you stop having poor/bad interactions with him.

The football definitely helped with keeping me busy and occupied in the evening

I was so disappointed in the Italy/England game.   I don't think England played so well.

Yes, I agree with that but abandonment issues are so big for him, I feel like turning him away would only exacerbate things and lead to more distance. That's why I let him in.

Its not your job to manage his feelings.    You can consider them of course but your feelings matter too.    You might think about putting yourselves in a better position for success to happen.    and by success I mean a more reasonable productive interaction.     

[formflier]

Can you give me a sense of how much of your communication happens in person compared to how much happens verbally on the phone (or other device where you can hear each other speaking)..compared to text messages (and the like) and/or email?

I'm getting the sense that the "vast majority" of your relationship is based on text type of communications, is that right?

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

this list is from another spot on this site.    this is emotional abuse:

EMOTIONAL ABUSE
Also called "Psychological or Verbal Abuse"
- false accusations
- name calling and finding fault
- verbal threats
- playing "mind games"
- making victim think she/he is stupid, or crazy
- humiliating victim
- overpowering victim's emotions
- disbelieving victim
- bringing up past issues
- inappropriate expression of jealousy
- degrading victim
- putting victim down, not defending her
- blame the victim for things
- turning the situation against the victim
- laughing in victim's face
- silence, ignoring victim
- refusing to do things with or for victim
- always getting own way
- neglecting victim
- pressuring victim
- expecting victim to conform to a role
- comparing victim to others
- suggested involvement with other women or men
- making victim feel guilty
- using certain mannerisms or behavior as a means of control (eg. snapping fingers, pointing)
- threatening to get drunk or stoned unless... .
- manipulation
- starting arguments
- withholding affection
- holding grudges and not really forgiving
- lying
- threatening to leave or commit suicide
- treating victim as a child
- having double standards for victim
- saying one thing and meaning another
- denying or taking away victim's responsibilities
- not keeping commitments
- insisting on accompanying victim to the doctor's office
- deliberately creating a mess for victim to clean
- preventing victim from getting or taking a job
- threatening her with anything (words, objects)
- refusing to deal with issues
- minimizing or disregarding victim's work or accomplishments
- demanding an account of victim's time/routine
- taking advantage of victim's fear of something
- making her do illegal things


these are all judgement calls.   and one size does not fit all.     if you feel he is too drunk to be on the street alone than allowing him to sleep it off is one thing.    engaging with him so that he falls asleep on your lap is entirely different.  I would suggest the message that sends is 'its okay to show up drunk'.   

thank you baby ducks'.  We were sat next to each other on the sofa and he just passed out his upper body landed in my lap. He was saying he was feeling really ill and I was asking what he had drank. He was trying to order food online. He got angry when I asked what/how much he had drank. I think his drinking is out of control now.

boundaries aren't just physical things.   they can be verbal things.   

I won't discuss this until you are sober.
Its not okay for you to be here this intoxicated.
Its worrying that you are drinking this much.

when he asks if you have been with other men, and then refuses to believe you - don't follow him down this rabbit hole.   

I'm not answering that question, its offensive.
I refuse to allow this type of discussion.

you are not going to have good interactions with him until you stop having poor/bad interactions with him.

Ok I like these responses.  I'll use them thank you, especially the drunk ones. And that makes perfect sense about the interactions.

I was so disappointed in the Italy/England game.   I don't think England played so well.

Me too. I was so shocked with the last penalty, I was holding hope till the end...but not to be. They def didn't play well enough, they just didn't seem to be in it. Here's hoping for the World Cup...

Its not your job to manage his feelings.    You can consider them of course but your feelings matter too.    You might think about putting yourselves in a better position for success to happen.    and by success I mean a more reasonable productive interaction.     

Yes, I'm working on that and doing my daily things to keep me grounded and steady. I've planned to focus more on me and to make sure I eat. When I'm stressed I tend not to eat and this, together with a health scare for my mum, me unable to fly home and a heavy workload means I haven't been great on that front. So that's my plan for this week.

[blackorchid]

Can you give me a sense of how much of your communication happens in person compared to how much happens verbally on the phone (or other device where you can hear each other speaking)..compared to text messages (and the like) and/or email?

I'm getting the sense that the "vast majority" of your relationship is based on text type of communications, is that right?

Best,

FF

It's pretty much all on whatsapp now. Daytime will be about bills/house etc. Nighttime I miss the dog what are you doing etc. Either can be a random did you pack my things, which I had today but havent repsonded.

I dont know the exact details as my mum is very upset. But it seems he was very nasty to her last night. He told her that he didn't care about her. But she's not telling me what was said.
He added to the message today, before I'd spoken to my mum how is your mum? I said she's not good she found out yesterday she now needs an endoscopy and biopsy

He responded an hour later, in which time I had spoken to my mum. "I spoke with her very bad yesterday. Please say sorry to her".

At the moment I'm too angry to reply. He should apologize himself and I shouldn't need to make that clear.  At 20:30 he has messaged asking what my plans are for tonight.

I was just walking in the door and haven't responded. Came on here instead. 

[blackorchid]

Actually I would be interested to know the time that they spoke.


As he messaged me ar 10:30 last night asking me what I was doing. I said nothing. Then he asked how my mum was.  I said she's stressed and worried waiting for test results.  He asked again, why she isn't messaging him. I said shes too worried about her tests.  I asked how his mum was.  Then he asked if I like his tattoo (again) we spoke about it. He said he was drinking. He asked me again what I was doing. I responded and all of a sudden the tone changed. We had been messaging on/off for 1.5 hours. He told me to shut up..

I'm betting he thinks I asked my mum to message him and then got angry?

[formflier]

So...how did the communications go when you asked him to apologize to your Mom for being nasty to her (by his own admission..right?)

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

yes by his own admission.

I havent responded yet.

He messaged me a few times asking what I was doing and he will come to stay tongiht.  when I didnt answer he put maybe,

He didn't show up anyway

[babyducks]

As he messaged me ar 10:30 last night asking me what I was doing. I said nothing. Then he asked how my mum was.  I said she's stressed and worried waiting for test results.  He asked again, why she isn't messaging him. I said shes too worried about her tests.  I asked how his mum was.  Then he asked if I like his tattoo (again) we spoke about it. He said he was drinking. He asked me again what I was doing. I responded and all of a sudden the tone changed. We had been messaging on/off for 1.5 hours. He told me to shut up..

let's step back and look at the over all focus of his message here.     try to step back and look at this from a 20,000 foot elevation.

this message is all about him.    why isn't your mum messaging?    what do you think about my tattoo?    He's drinking.   this is Me Me Me Me.   very self focused without much self awareness.  this is attention seeking behavior.    his tone probably changed when he did not feel enough attention was being paid to Him.  or when he became drunk enough to get angry.   

As he messaged me ar 10:30 last night asking me what I was doing. I said nothing.

did I misunderstand?   I thought you said you have been very busy and very tired and having trouble sleeping?   but its okay to stay up texting with him?    how does that work exactly?

Then he asked how my mum was.  I said she's stressed and worried waiting for test results.  He asked again, why she isn't messaging him. I said shes too worried about her tests. 

this isn't about your mum. (sorry to hear she has a medical thing going on)   this is about him not getting enough attention.  don't JADE.   hand this back to him to deal with:
'we've talked about this - what are you concerned about?'
'what exactly do you think is going on with my mum?'
'why don't you reach out to her yourself?'
and now that he has been nasty to her:
'I think the apology would mean more coming from you.'
'I think you should handle this yourself - I don't know what was said.'

Then he asked if I like his tattoo (again) we spoke about it.

attention seeking.    pwBPD require a highly validating environment where they feel seen and heard.    how did you validate any part of this text exchange.

He said he was drinking. He asked me again what I was doing. I responded and all of a sudden the tone changed. We had been messaging on/off for 1.5 hours. He told me to shut up..

when he told you he was drinking was that your cue to exit the text exchange in a productive way?       was there a place you can look back and identify a better moment to leave on a positive note?   and what did you say when he told you to shut up?   in that long list of emotional abuse I posted upstream was this one:
- starting arguments
was he starting an argument when the told you to shut up?    what were you discussing when the tone changed?   do you think you deserve to be told to shut up?   (for what its worth - I don't)

[blackorchid]

let's step back and look at the over all focus of his message here.     try to step back and look at this from a 20,000 foot elevation.

this message is all about him.    why isn't your mum messaging?    what do you think about my tattoo?    He's drinking.   this is Me Me Me Me.   very self focused without much self awareness.  this is attention seeking behavior.    his tone probably changed when he did not feel enough attention was being paid to Him.  or when he became drunk enough to get angry.   

I didn't see it from that angle but now, I totally see it. Thank you. Yes, he is totally self absorbed right now. Also could be why he reverted to "you're controlling me" when I responded to the tattoo (?)

did I misunderstand?   I thought you said you have been very busy and very tired and having trouble sleeping?   but its okay to stay up texting with him?    how does that work exactly?

My days here are loonng, part of the reason I'm so tired. I got home at  20:30, cooked some food, walked the dog at around 21:45 (due to the heat and humidity I have to walk her very late at night and then early in the morning), so I was just getting back in the house.

this isn't about your mum. (sorry to hear she has a medical thing going on)   this is about him not getting enough attention.  don't JADE.   hand this back to him to deal with:
'we've talked about this - what are you concerned about?'
'what exactly do you think is going on with my mum?'
'why don't you reach out to her yourself?'
and now that he has been nasty to her:
'I think the apology would mean more coming from you.'
'I think you should handle this yourself - I don't know what was said.'

So does he want attention from my mum too? I've spoken with his sister this week, neither his mum, brother nor dad are talking to him. They wouldn't explain to me why. So he is alienating himself from everyone I guess.  I will try those responses. Thank you.

I really hope she will be ok, she's found a lump and she's waiting for tests and biopsies now. So I really have enough on my plate without him.

Quote from: blackorchid on July 14, 2021, 01:08:35 PM
Then he asked if I like his tattoo (again) we spoke about it.

attention seeking.    pwBPD require a highly validating environment where they feel seen and heard.    how did you validate any part of this text exchange.

How would I validate the tattoo?

so, it's on his calf.  Full calf... a boy walking along a railroad track carrying a football and wearing a cap (it comes up in a google search). On the child's right leg there is the shadow of the same tattoo... and the shirt says no.10, his number.

I asked what made him pick it: he liked it, everybody likes it. I asked if the kid has the same tattoo on his leg, he said yes, I asked if that was his idea, he said yes, it was a good idea. I asked if it was painful and he said yes but it's ok now.


I guess that this is all about his regrets about his football career, his inner child, broken dreams...

I know from his work friend that he is now living in the work accommodation and his roommates are the tattoo artists in the hotel... They did it for him "from night till morning whilst they were all drinking"
This then made perfect sense to me as to why he has it. He tends to be easily influenced by the people around him when he is like this and acts like they act. So, he is in a group of tattoo artists... of course he gets a tattoo. My heart actually sinks at this...he'll be covered in them.  They gave him a gigantic discount cos it was off the books from 3000tl down to 450tl.

Like with the incident at work and when he started hanging around with the new barman.  It was during our 17 day lockdown in May.  The hotel owner's family (and all the rich of Turkey) checked into hotels to be free during lockdown...

The hotel owner's family were coming to him for private lessons...to the whole sport department...but not paying for the lessons...after all they're relatives, so entitled right? (turkish mentality). He was coming home every day annoyed and tired.  Which is fair no one wants to work for free. I understand that...

However, this new barman thought that it was completely out of order and unjust that he wasn't getting paid. And so started slipping him bottles full of drink. He would empty a water bottle and fill it with vodka, give him cans of redbull and tell him to put it in his backpack. I wondered where it was coming from.

One evening I was on zoom and he was on his way home, he messaged me to ask if I like Jagermeister and if there were any redbulls left. I responded I'm teaching.  As he came home, I finished. Just as he was opening the fridge I walked into the kitchen... he was putting a glass soda bottle with a loose cap into the fridge. I said hi and why were you asking about Jagermeister, you don't even like it, did a guest give you it (sometimes they tip with bottles of alcohol). Then he told me all about the plan the barman had made, how he deserves to be paid and this is his way of being paid..How clever is he? he asked me.

I told him no. It's stupid. If anyone sees what you're doing you'll both be sacked. I think the whole sports department should talk to the manager and say how much you've been working and that you should be paid. I bet the owner has no idea what his relatives are doing ( which he did and then got paid)

However, they had now found a system to get drinks and so they continued. Not every day but often enough... This was part of my frustration with him. You are so so lucky to still have job in the pandemic, especially in tourism don't risk it. What are you doing?

(as im typing this i'm seeing a huge correlation with this and the timing of our argument...lockdown ended 18th may and we argued 26th may)

(nb alcohol is ridiculously expensive here and always increasing in price)

It was this new friend who told him to leave  me...


His assistant manager has caught him last week drinking whiskey out of a coffee cup. When he disciplined him, he thought that he was only angry with him because of me and kept asking have you spoke to her? stop overreacting, I know this isn't because of the drink, it's because of her...you're taking her side.

They are really close friends, so this time he didn't report it. But he won't help him or cover for him again and if anyone else catches him, he's on his own.

when he told you he was drinking was that your cue to exit the text exchange in a productive way?       was there a place you can look back and identify a better moment to leave on a positive note?   and what did you say when he told you to shut up?   in that long list of emotional abuse I posted upstream was this one:
- starting arguments
was he starting an argument when the told you to shut up?    what were you discussing when the tone changed?   do you think you deserve to be told to shut up?   (for what its worth - I don't)

No I didn't deserve to be told to shut up. Not at all.
I guess in hindsight that was a cue to exit the conversation

[babyducks]

Also could be why he reverted to "you're controlling me" when I responded to the tattoo (?)

pwBPD do not have a fully formed strong sense of self.   that's why they are easily influenced by people around them.  what that means is that the words 'agree to disagree' don't exist for them.   difference of opinion doesn't work for them.    seeing things from a different perspective is foreign.     pwBPD tend to want to merge into an amoeba like oneness with those closest  to them.     if you don't find the tattoo as important as he does... the unstated mind set is we must agree, we must be the same,   we must see things the same way or else this is bad you are trying to control me.

My days here are loonng, part of the reason I'm so tired.

texting while tired is probably not a good idea.     should you put a boundary around how late you will answer texts?   

So does he want attention from my mum too?

I would guess that as a highly sensitive person his feelings were hurt that she wasn't contacting him the way she normally does.  a long time ago I was told that my pwBPD needs and wants would always come first to them.   and that my needs and wants would only matter so long as they matched with hers.    which I found to be very true.   
 

How would I validate the tattoo? 

you don't have to validate the tattoo but the feelings around it.
I can see this means a lot to you.
It seems like this has a lot of significance, what means the most to you?
I remember the number 10 was your number.   

as a reminder:   this is about the feelings not the facts.

However, they had now found a system to get drinks and so they continued. Not every day but often enough... This was part of my frustration with him.

are there al-anon meetings near you?

His assistant manager has caught him last week drinking whiskey out of a coffee cup. When he disciplined him, he thought that he was only angry with him because of me and kept asking have you spoke to her? stop overreacting, I know this isn't because of the drink, it's because of her...you're taking her side.

how do you know this?    I am assuming you heard it from the assistant manager?    and what do you think this outburst tells you about his state of mind right now?   

your bf wants to drink.   he thinks he is entitled to drink.    its part of his 'pay' for working at the hotel.   he and his buddy have figured out this clever plan to 'get what is owed to them' and 'beat the system'.    they are pulling one over on the man.   you think this is 'stupid'... you agree with the man.  you are controlling.   he thinks he is doing nothing wrong.      you disagree so clearly you have to be wrong.   as a pwBPD he can't accept or tolerate the idea that he did or is doing anything wrong.   he would rather double down on his activities than admit he might have made a mistake.    to a person with BPD making a mistake means they are a complete failure and shouldn't exist any longer.     this 'clever' plan to get what is owed to them,... something that is expensive ... shows how special he is, and as a pwBPD he needs to be special.

again ... is there al-anon where you are?

'ducks

[blackorchid]

pwBPD do not have a fully formed strong sense of self.   that's why they are easily influenced by people around them.  what that means is that the words 'agree to disagree' don't exist for them.   difference of opinion doesn't work for them.    seeing things from a different perspective is foreign.     pwBPD tend to want to merge into an amoeba like oneness with those closest  to them.     if you don't find the tattoo as important as he does... the unstated mind set is we must agree, we must be the same,   we must see things the same way or else this is bad you are trying to control me.

So is there something I should reply when he talks about me controlling him? This has been a common line since the initial arguement.  And actually everytime he goes like this...

I would guess that as a highly sensitive person his feelings were hurt that she wasn't contacting him the way she normally does.  a long time ago I was told that my pwBPD needs and wants would always come first to them.   and that my needs and wants would only matter so long as they matched with hers.    which I found to be very true.   
 

Yes but unfortunately it leaves us in a hard position. My mum doesn't believe anything is wrong with him and he is just a nasty person, this has now confirmed it to her

you don't have to validate the tattoo but the feelings around it.
I can see this means a lot to you.
It seems like this has a lot of significance, what means the most to you?
I remember the number 10 was your number.   

as a reminder:   this is about the feelings not the facts.

Ok if he brings it up again I'll remember that. Thank you. I guess I let my feelings and shock block the lessons I know on validation and everything. I don't know why but him having a tattoo has upset me so much, as I know this isn't him. As I said when I learned that he was living with tattoo artists the why became clear. He's engulfed with them.

are there al-anon meetings near you?

Nope I just searched again in case I missed something.  Looks like AA was here up to
2019... I can see about an online group. To be honest it's something I struggle with because of mu family history and the thought of a group makes me anxious.  But if you think it will be useful here I can try to find one, the time differences didn't quite line up but next week is holiday here.

how do you know this?    I am assuming you heard it from the assistant manager?    and what do you think this outburst tells you about his state of mind right now?   

Yes, I'm friends with him too and he has been checking in to make sure I am ok. He is worried about him but is now loosing his patience with him.  I met him on Monday and we spoke  again on Tuesday.

Well to be it shows that I am still split black and everything in his world that is wrong is due to me. What would you say?
He's definitely still not in a good place.

The friend told pwBPD repeatedly (over the last couple of weeks) that he hasn't spoken to me. He saw his initial anger when the friend suggested that he talk to me to try and help things and so he has decided to tell him that we're not in contact.  He wanted to help because he couldn't understand how he went from dragging him on their break to look at a wedding venue to saying we had a fight, he's not coming home and we're finished.  He constantly tells me it is obvious that he is fighting something within himself ... I haven't spoken to him about BPD.

your bf wants to drink.   he thinks he is entitled to drink.    its part of his 'pay' for working at the hotel.   he and his buddy have figured out this clever plan to 'get what is owed to them' and 'beat the system'.    they are pulling one over on the man.   you think this is 'stupid'... you agree with the man.  you are controlling.   he thinks he is doing nothing wrong.      you disagree so clearly you have to be wrong.   as a pwBPD he can't accept or tolerate the idea that he did or is doing anything wrong.   he would rather double down on his activities than admit he might have made a mistake.    to a person with BPD making a mistake means they are a complete failure and shouldn't exist any longer.     this 'clever' plan to get what is owed to them,... something that is expensive ... shows how special he is, and as a pwBPD he needs to be special.

Ah isn't it crazy how much of that makes sense to be. We haven't spoken about this topic since he left  and obviously I'm not going to bring it up, as he doesn't know that I know the new developments at work...

[babyducks]

I would suggest you work on a SET around the control issue.  Something that says you understand his opinion but that you see it differently.

I remember being shocked by just how much my Ex thought that our opinions should match.    And by just how much she thought I was there to supply a constant amount of attention and support.   According to her I always needed to think about her needs and wants first and foremost.

[blackorchid]

Ok I'll try and work on one.

He's just messaged now: Can I come tonight and drink with you and we can have sex. I missed you. I miss sex with you.  But don't think it means I'm coming back home. I don't want any relationship with anyone.


In past cycles this plays out for a few weeks and then he comes back

[formflier]

Maybe this is a great time to say you would love to see him without drinking.

I don't think you have said it explicitly, so I'll ask.  It sounds like you enjoy his sober company and also his company when "emotionally neutral" (not off on a rant).  Is that right?

Can you think of a time when you enjoy him after he has been drinking?

I would recommend not addressing sex with a yes or no.  You could even make the no drinking thing about you..and invite him along (so less chance of him grabbing onto "she thinks my drinking is bad")

Perhaps  "Would be great to see you, I'm tapped out on drinking and trying to eat and drink healthy here for while.  We could walk fluffy (insert dogs real name) and then enjoy some (insert a healthy meal) together.  If you would rather drink with your buddies I won't be offended."

What do you think about that proposed message.  Do you see the implicit messages you are starting to send.  You and I together = healthy choices/eating/drinking.   If you want to drink..that is apart from me.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Important enough point to separate out.  Many times it's hard to figure out the emotion you are trying to validate in them.  So..what emotion/feeling was involved in the tatoo?  Doesn't sound like he has revealed that so...

  When it doubt use validating questions
 
I would encourage you to read this post, even if you realize you have seen it before...study it.  Write some of your own questions.  We can help.

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

Ok I'll try and work on one.

He's just messaged now: Can I come tonight and drink with you and we can have sex. I missed you. I miss sex with you.  But don't think it means I'm coming back home. I don't want any relationship with anyone.


In past cycles this plays out for a few weeks and then he comes back

Oh ugh.   Just ugh.

Talk about putting his needs and wants first with no recognition of yours.

What conditions do you want to put around this?

[blackorchid]

Maybe this is a great time to say you would love to see him without drinking.

I don't think you have said it explicitly, so I'll ask.  It sounds like you enjoy his sober company and also his company when "emotionally neutral" (not off on a rant).  Is that right?

Can you think of a time when you enjoy him after he has been drinking?

Yes, that's right and no not when he's been drinking alone. It's never enjoyable being sober around a drunk...

I would recommend not addressing sex with a yes or no.  You could even make the no drinking thing about you..and invite him along (so less chance of him grabbing onto "she thinks my drinking is bad")

Perhaps  "Would be great to see you, I'm tapped out on drinking and trying to eat and drink healthy here for while.  We could walk fluffy (insert dogs real name) and then enjoy some (insert a healthy meal) together.  If you would rather drink with your buddies I won't be offended."

What do you think about that proposed message.  Do you see the implicit messages you are starting to send.  You and I together = healthy choices/eating/drinking.   If you want to drink..that is apart from me.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

Thanks FF I like that suggestion, I haven't responded yet... but he has since added he is going to a wedding and will come after that, which will be late, so I don't think a dog walk will be on the cards tonight.

I'm wondering if the wedding was a trigger for him to message me. Our wedding was postponed last year to this August and then I said to cancel it as UK still has Turkey on the red. He was very disappointed with this ( as was I but I am more realistic). His family wanted us to go ahead without my family there, which was a hard no from me.

Maybe I'll tweek your message and add that it'll be late I'm not drinking rn...

Oh ugh.   Just ugh.

Talk about putting his needs and wants first with no recognition of yours.

What conditions do you want to put around this?

Yes, especially as you were just talking about this. Conditions around it tbh I'm not entirely sure, unfortunately this is how it's played out in the past...

Important enough point to separate out.  Many times it's hard to figure out the emotion you are trying to validate in them.  So..what emotion/feeling was involved in the tatoo?  Doesn't sound like he has revealed that so...

  When it doubt use validating questions
 
I would encourage you to read this post, even if you realize you have seen it before...study it.  Write some of your own questions.  We can help.

Best,

FF

I'm just going into lessons so I'll read that this evening thank you FF

[babyducks]

Conditions around it tbh I'm not entirely sure, unfortunately this is how it's played out in the past...

Just because it's played out that way in the past doesn't mean it should go that way again.

Honestly it would probably be better to try a different approach.

I like FF suggestion.    It's mild.    It doesn't add much drama.    It begins to create a boundary around how you will take care of and protect yourself.

[formflier]

So...you also have time to think (and I recommend you do). 

Let's say you make the mild overtures to him that you want time with him if not drinking.  Perhaps he agrees or not.

What EXACTLY are you going to do if he turns up drunk wanting to be let it...even at a really late hour?

What EXACTLY are you going to do if he turns up drunk or not demanding sex?

As I read that, perhaps it would be easier for you to figure out what you are NOT going to do first...then go from there.

It's OK to protect your feelings!

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

Thank you FF.He's here I didn't even reply to h;m my mum was spirallling about her gastronomy and biopsy that I didnt get achance to come on here or red what vyou sent ff


this is the most normal I HAVE SEEEN HIM IN 2 months

[formflier]

Has he been drinking?

If not...good time to "plant seeds".

"hey...I really enjoy our time together.  Just us no alcohol."

So sorry about your mom.  Does she have any results or is she in that troubling stage of waiting?

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

Hi FF, Sorry my last message had so many spelling mistakes, it was a rushed message as he went to the bathroom. Typed far too quickly sorry.

No, he had had a couple of beers at the wedding. But he wasn't drunk


He turned up with one of our favourite takeaways, which is the closest to a caring act he has done in 2 months.

He said that he had wanted to come earlier, it was late when he arrived, but was waiting on a lift from people he had gone there with.

A guest had given him a bottle of very decent whiskey as a tip and he wanted to drink it with me. That also surprised me that he wanted to share it with me and not his new friends  (sidenote, he keeps posting on social media, pics of him with a guest from the hotel, a 19 year old who he keeps calling his "best friend" on the pics, and his girlfriend. FYi he is 37 years old, he has now been banned from the hotel at night and so took them into the city during the week to hang out with them. This seems to be a common theme when he is like this, new friend all young and immediately there are his best friends... has anyone else experienced this?).

I guess I was happy that he actually wanted to do something with me, was very stressed about my mum and so had a drink with him and we ate the food. He was talking about his new plan to move to England... his old teammate is a player at a premier league team and he wants him to help him, asked me if I could help him find the money to do his next level UEFA coaching course.  Kept saying EVERYONE loves his tattoo.  Thank you BabyDucks' because of what you had written earlier that day I was able to see all the Me me me me me-ness in this and so was not sensitive.

We spoke about walking the dog, its her bday tuesday and I said maybe we could rent a car and take her swimming for her bday... he said maybe I'll think about it.

He mentioned again to stay in a hotel together for a couple of days... he did this the first time he showed up weeks ago but then added it was "too late for us now".  This time, he suggested going next weekend, sun mon his days off. I'm trying not to read too much into that as its our anniversary/my bday next week 24/25 and not to get my hopes hinged on it.  Expectation is the source of all disappointment after all.

he still says he doesn't want a relationship with anybody right now. Which is also what I have heard in past cycles at this stage.

He woke in the morning and left the bottle here, saying he would like to come another day to see me and we can drink it then...

He messaged me almost immediately after he left saying can he come tonight. Then around 4:30pm said he was too tired and not feeling well so he will come another time.


 
He has messaged me this morning at almost 10am, saying that he is late to work becgause he overslept and everyone is angry and asked me what I was doing.  Said that he was really tired and drunk ( so another night drinking)...

I wonder what will happen now, his friend the assistant manager told  me if he is late one more time they will sack him...I asked and he didn't have any lessons this morning so at least he didn't have guests waiting for him.


Should I ask him about renting the car tomorrow for the dog?


Mum's in the waiting stage, her appointment is for next Sunday.  She found a lump on her lower left tummy, she's had blood tests and a scan, then a letter came for this.  As the endoscopy is so so much higher than where she feels the lump she has convinced herself it's cancer and it has spread everywhere. She called me as soon as I finished lessons on Friday evening, it was early evening in England but she was already drinking, so there went her great spell of not drinking... and I was on the phone to her all night, reassuring her and trying to tell her to stop drinking and to go to bed. In between her phone calls my aunty was calling me worried about her. So it was def a night.  Yesterday I was too emotionally drained to log on here. Sorry

[babyducks]

This seems to be a common theme when he is like this, new friend all young and immediately there are his best friends... has anyone else experienced this?).

Yes.     if you google favorite person and bpd you will see lots of examples.    personally I am never totally comfortable with the term 'favorite person' because it always sounds so pseudo science to me but basically a “FP” (or Favorite Person) is a person who someone with mental illness relies on for support, and often looks up to or idolizes. its common with borderline personality disorder (BPD).

Thank you BabyDucks' because of what you had written earlier that day I was able to see all the Me me me me me-ness in this and so was not sensitive.

you are welcome.     the goal is to not be as sensitive to his emotional swings.   to not take them personally.    to understand that the way he processes life, the way he handles the events of life are focused around him, his chaotic emotions and how he makes sense of them.

He has messaged me this morning at almost 10am, saying that he is late to work becgause he overslept and everyone is angry and asked me what I was doing.  Said that he was really tired and drunk ( so another night drinking)

how did you reply to this?     I am wondering if this would be a good opportunity for another SET.     Think of SET communications like they are set pieces in a foot ball match.    This is a corner kick...   you know something is coming around his employment ... that work is starting to set boundaries around his behavior.    Do you want to start to lay the ground work around what happens when work starts to discipline him?    FF would call it planting seeds.     I think of it as a corner kick where everyone knows where they are going and what they are going to do.

Support:    I'm glad you made it to work.
Empathy:   I know you like ____fill in the blank_______ about working there.
Truth:   It would really really be a shame if you lost the job because of the tardiness.

put it in your own words...  of course

   
Should I ask him about renting the car tomorrow for the dog?

sure.     you want to give him positive and healthy ways to reconnect with you right?

 
and I was on the phone to her all night, reassuring her and trying to tell her to stop drinking and to go to bed. In between her phone calls my aunty was calling me worried about her. So it was def a night.  Yesterday I was too emotionally drained to log on here. Sorry

no need to be sorry.  we can only do what we can do.    its perfectly all right to limit the amount of time you spend helping your mother, trying to calm her down and trying to tell her to stop drinking.       how much time and energy do you think you invested in helping her?

its really okay to have boundaries around what behavior you will tolerate and for how long.     boundaries protect us from draining ourselves dry trying to help other people.     its okay to say  I have to stop now... I will talk to you tomorrow.

'ducks

[blackorchid]

Yes.     if you google favorite person and bpd you will see lots of examples.    personally I am never totally comfortable with the term 'favorite person' because it always sounds so pseudo science to me but basically a “FP” (or Favorite Person) is a person who someone with mental illness relies on for support, and often looks up to or idolizes. its common with borderline personality disorder (BPD).

OK, I just googled it, but this sounds like it is a constant person. He seems to have a different new FP every time he does this. And in May his FP was the barman, (Who told him, I was toxic to him and ruining his life and so he should met him, despite him never meeting me) and now he is calling a guest his bestfriend. So it seems that they are ever changing but a very big part of his world when in it.

you are welcome.     the goal is to not be as sensitive to his emotional swings.   to not take them personally.    to understand that the way he processes life, the way he handles the events of life are focused around him, his chaotic emotions and how he makes sense of them.

Constantly trying to work on this...

how did you reply to this?     I am wondering if this would be a good opportunity for another SET.     Think of SET communications like they are set pieces in a foot ball match.    This is a corner kick...   you know something is coming around his employment ... that work is starting to set boundaries around his behavior.    Do you want to start to lay the ground work around what happens when work starts to discipline him?    FF would call it planting seeds.     I think of it as a corner kick where everyone knows where they are going and what they are going to do.

Support:    I'm glad you made it to work.
Empathy:   I know you like ____fill in the blank_______ about working there.
Truth:   It would really really be a shame if you lost the job because of the tardiness.

put it in your own words...  of course

Hmm I never thought of doing a SET message with this, I think I need to reread around SET messages and be ready for them in different situations... I just responded normally saying oh, I hope it won't be a problem for you.  I wanted to add more but didnt want to get "you're controlling me " thrown in my face.

sure.     you want to give him positive and healthy ways to reconnect with you right?

I'll message him tonight, there's no point now when he is working and he will have to stay an hour or so to catch up his time lost this morning.

Without trying to read the tea leaves like FF says I think he is coming out of his deregulation. He posted on his story a quote:

"There is a cure for everything, but not death, Death is closer to you than your hatred, so don't hurt anyone, don't make anyone sad, show your love to the one you love before it is too late"

I think I translated it right   
How I wanted to respond to it...does he not realize the pain and hurt and sadness he has caused me these past two months?

no need to be sorry.  we can only do what we can do.    its perfectly all right to limit the amount of time you spend helping your mother, trying to calm her down and trying to tell her to stop drinking.       how much time and energy do you think you invested in helping her?

its really okay to have boundaries around what behavior you will tolerate and for how long.     boundaries protect us from draining ourselves dry trying to help other people.     its okay to say  I have to stop now... I will talk to you tomorrow.

'ducks

Yeah I know from the past that I can spend far too long trying to appease mum on the phone from afar. This is a very hard place to set boundaries, especially when she is in a vulnerable place

[babyducks]

OK, I just googled it, but this sounds like it is a constant person. He seems to have a different new FP every time he does this. And in May his FP was the barman, (Who told him, I was toxic to him and ruining his life and so he should met him, despite him never meeting me) and now he is calling a guest his bestfriend. So it seems that they are ever changing but a very big part of his world when in it.

I know some pwBPD are okay using the phrase FP.   others are not.   I don't think this has totally settled about what it means and how its used but what appears to be the key part is the idolization.   I am not sure its really different from the idealization that a pwBPD does... where you are suddenly the most wonderful person in the world.   it does seem to be related to the need of a pwBPD to attach to another person to feel a stable sense of self.

Hmm I never thought of doing a SET message with this, I think I need to reread around SET messages and be ready for them in different situations... I just responded normally saying oh, I hope it won't be a problem for you.  I wanted to add more but didnt want to get "you're controlling me " thrown in my face.

the 'you're controlling me' message is going to come up whenever you do something or say something that contradicts his version of things.   that doesn't mean you avoid adding more.   it means you tweak how you want to say it.    instead of Truth:   It would really really be a shame if you lost the job because of the tardiness.   you could tweak it to say 'how are you going to make sure you get yourself to work on time from now on?'   or something like that.

I think I translated it right   :
How I wanted to respond to it...does he not realize the pain and hurt and sadness he has caused me these past two months?

probably not no.   pwBPD are emotionally immature.   they do not have a well developed sense of empathy.  typically their own emotions are so loud and overwhelming they don't have a good sense of how others feel.    so I am going to say No, he doesn't really understand it.    

[blackorchid]

Yeah I knew he didn't understand before I even asked.

I've asked him to do something tomorrow, as it's his day off tomorrow and our dog's 10th bday on Tuesday. Car trips out with the two of them are honestly my favourite thing in the world. I love watching her explore new places  Here in Turkey we  had weekend curfews  and evening curfews (the worse being 7pm to 5am) since the main lockdown ended last August They finally lifted the beginning of this month. During curfew dog walking was forbidden, you were allowed to stand outside your apartment. During lockdown and weekend curfews parks were banned, even for dog walkers. So she has had a rubbish time of it too .And has weight to loose (like a lot of us , she gained those covid pounds ), so here's hoping we go somewhere tomorrrow.

He said he was coming tonight...it's now 00.09 so I'm off to bed...

[blackorchid]

BTW I have no driving license and dogs' aren't allowed on public transport so I can't just take her somewhere myself.

[formflier]

  Car trips out with the two of them are honestly my favourite thing in the world. I love watching her explore new places   

You should let him know this...perhaps just the way you said it here!

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

You should let him know this...perhaps just the way you said it here!

Best,

FF

Thanks FF


OK what a long story to tell...

Sunday night he did show up around 5am, he acted completely normal as if this was his home and he has never moved out and that the last 2 months have just not happened.

I was asleep, he heard me stirring and said don't get up, I'm getting a water and coming to bed too, I'm tired. Gave the dog some love and got into bed.  snuggled up against me and slept. In the morning, I got up and walked the dog, came back and went back to sleep as I really didn't sleep well the night before. he woke up and turned and cuddled me again before going back to sleep.

We had a long lie in. He asked if I still wanted to rent a car and I said yes, he checked with a lot of places but noone had one, because it was the first day of the Bayram holidays...

Woke up and made breakfast together sat and ate it together.  He had a shower and got ready, asked me what I was doing today...therapy, then I need to go to the shopping centre as my vouchers will expire this week.. you? He was going to the hairdressers and then to the shopping center and the beach. Maybe I'll come back to walk the dog this evening.

He left. 

It had felt just like a normal day in a normal life, BUT he seemed very guarded and hesitant around me, not so chatty, not so warm, if that makes sense. I did come on here to start posting but the internet dropped and I had to rush out to my therapy appointment...

When I got out of therapy at 16;00, there was a message from him at 15:12 asking me what I was doing,  I said I just got out of therapy you, I'm walking to the mall.  He said he was there, which shop he was in but he didn't want to meet me.  I asked so why did you ask me what I'm doing and he said because maybe I'll come to stay tonight.

20 mins late he messaged where are you? im hungry.

I said what shop I was in, he asked what do you think, where shall I eat. I said the name of the restaurant I like that I don't know I only go to that one.  He said he'll go there. DO i want to eat? come and meet him.  He messaged again asking if I wanted my usual. I said yeah and he had ordered it by the time I had arrived.

Again he was on guard. We spoke but not about anything... And I guess I was shocked that we were doing it, as half an hour before he had said he didn't want to meet me...  During the meal he asked what I would like for my birthday. That shocked me more than anything, "what" i sort of chocked.  He repeated and named a shop I like and said do you want to go now and pick something, I'll buy you what you want. I said no, I like surprises, you know that.  As he was paying my mum called and got the all clear  He was also pleased for that.


The

[formflier]

His cycle of dysregulation seems to be turning.

I'm curious about something.  How did he get into your place without waking you up?

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

Then he asked if I would go the shop with him to help him pick the glasses, we browsed the mall for a bit. He asked if there's anywhere I want to go,  I picked the nice food shop. He said let's get some snacks we can have a picnic in the park for our dogs bday.  Then maybe we can go out afterwards. Ok I said.

Then we came home, got the stuff together for the picnic and walked to the park. It was perfect. Just as the sunset was beginning. He took a video for his insta story.  I took a pic of my dog and sunset. He didnt want me to post it as he didn't want people to know that we were together.

We ate and drank (the whiskey he brought round on friday).  Again, he wasn't so chatty with me. But I just stayed present and tried not to overthink it.

We came home, he asked if I still wanted to go out, I said yes, let me get changed. We went out...again not so chatty. I hate those style of bars, club music thumping and you can't hear yourself think.

I haven't worn heels since the pandemic started and slipped on a stair. He was very concerned. (My ankle is terribly swollen today).

We came home, he stayed he woke up and went to work

[formflier]

He didnt want me to post it as he didn't want people to know that we were together.


 But I just stayed present and tried not to overthink it.
 

Did he actually say not to post and his reasons or is there some "tea leaf reading going on there with you?


I really like you attitude of being in the moment and not overthinking.

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

His cycle of dysregulation seems to be turning.

I'm curious about something.  How did he get into your place without waking you up?

Best,

FF

Sorry FF I thought I had put it, he had his keys

[blackorchid]

hmm interesting. I finally found an English copy of stop walking on eggshells here.  Im just reading about behaviourial projections and unconscious thoughts feelings...


BP says You're so controlling. The unconscious thought/feeling is; I feel like I'm losing control right now and it scares me

[formflier]

BP says You're so controlling. The unconscious thought/feeling is; I feel like I'm losing control right now and it scares me

You generally get the gist of it.

Let's say FFw claims that I (FF) hate her parents (or insert emotion) someone else.  If I don't believe I feel that way, it's most likely she has those feelings but feels more comfortable verbalizing that by "projecting" it onto me.

Now...it's also unlikely she has "thought that through" and might like deny she is doing that.

So...not something to try and convince your pwBPD of.

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

Hope you don't mind me being off topic.   How are you feeling about possible covid exposure and him being frequently in public spaces ?   Are vaccines available ?   

[blackorchid]

Hope you don't mind me being off topic.   How are you feeling about possible covid exposure and him being frequently in public spaces ?   Are vaccines available ?   

strange you say that as I felt very nervous in the restaurant with him on Monday as that was my first time since covid started.

He's been double vaccinated for a while, as they did all tourist workers before the season started and I got my 2nd jab yesterday.

But yeah it concerns me

[formflier]

Are most people over there still wearing masks? 

I'm very disappointed that "most" people out in town are not wearing masks now.  Any medical place is still hardcore about it.

I'm fully vaccinated and still wear a mask when going inside places. 

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

Masks have been mandatory everywhere outside since September, however you see less people wearing them now outside walking on the streets and especially in the parks.

I must admit on humid nights I take mine off to walk my dog, and that has slipped into mornings too, it's just so hot. There was a confusing news that you don't have to wear them if you can guarantee being 2 m away from others, which is when I stopped wearing mine for dog walking but then I think they revoked it, leaving many people confused...

Public transport and all inside places require masks, you can't enter without one. Malls, restaurants, gov buildings and most places  you have to give a tracking QR code to get in and temp checks...


I'm disappointed with it too. Always have been... the parks last summer and again this summer are a joke, crowded and everyone packed in. Beaches are the same, hence the dog doesn't get her good walks and I've still not been to the beach

[blackorchid]

Did he actually say not to post and his reasons or is there some "tea leaf reading going on there with you?


I really like you attitude of being in the moment and not overthinking.

Best,

FF

Thanks

Yes he said not to post. But on Tuesday I was posting other photos for her bday and he said I could post it

[blackorchid]

Then he asked if I would go the shop with him to help him pick the glasses, we browsed the mall for a bit. He asked if there's anywhere I want to go,  I picked the nice food shop. He said let's get some snacks we can have a picnic in the park for our dogs bday.  Then maybe we can go out afterwards. Ok I said.

Then we came home, got the stuff together for the picnic and walked to the park. It was perfect. Just as the sunset was beginning. He took a video for his insta story.  I took a pic of my dog and sunset. He didnt want me to post it as he didn't want people to know that we were together.

We ate and drank (the whiskey he brought round on friday).  Again, he wasn't so chatty with me. But I just stayed present and tried not to overthink it.

We came home, he asked if I still wanted to go out, I said yes, let me get changed. We went out...again not so chatty. I hate those style of bars, club music thumping and you can't hear yourself think.

I haven't worn heels since the pandemic started and slipped on a stair. He was very concerned. (My ankle is terribly swollen today).

We came home, he stayed he woke up and went to work

He's been fairly quiet again since he left.  The message on wednesday about a potential upcoming quarantine, a new plan to work in england via help of an old teammate but nothing else.  He said he would come tonight then half an hour later said, i dont think I'll come tonight, I'm tired but maybe I will come

I really don't know what to do...

It has been Bayram here this week, I did send him a message for that.

Tomorrow it's our anniversary and Sunday is my birthday,

so all in all a hard week topped off with no work as it's a religious holiday so I'm feeling very low..

I don't know if I should reach out to him and say how I'm feeling or just keep waiting for him to return to baseline

[babyducks]

so all in all a hard week topped off with no work as it's a religious holiday so I'm feeling very low..

I don't know if I should reach out to him and say how I'm feeling or just keep waiting for him to return to baseline

you have a lot of reasons to feel low.     that's a natural reaction to everything going on.     

would you feel comfortable sharing here any potential message you want to send him... perhaps we can help you work through your thoughts about what to say and how?

[blackorchid]

you have a lot of reasons to feel low.     that's a natural reaction to everything going on.     

would you feel comfortable sharing here any potential message you want to send him... perhaps we can help you work through your thoughts about what to say and how?

Thank you Babyducks

Honestly, I don't even know where to begin. He's messages to be are unreal. He wants me to ask my mum if him and our dog can live with her in England...where exactly does that leave me? Am I even in the scenario? He seems to be so far from reality...he is convinced that his ex player will just get him a job as a coaching intern or something for a MAJOR premier league team...despite same person ghosting him since he made the big leagues of germany then on to england. I'm so confused about that I don't even know where to start

This morning he suggested staying in a hotel for a couple of days on Sunday...then did a 180..."it's too expensive, forget it". Was that just a coincidence that he suggested it on my bday?

I want to tell him I'm sick of this, I'm sick of being in limbo. I want him to come home, I never wanted him to leave.

On Monday night I told him I loved him. He's response. Maybe

And thank you Babyducks' I know I have many reasons to feel like this now but thank you for seeing them and saying them. I just really wish someone would just care for me. Look after me, for once.  Maybe therapy is bringing that up in me more, delving into family stuff and there's issues happening between my brother and I.

Sorry for the rant

[formflier]

On Monday night I told him I loved him. He's response. Maybe

 

 

I'm so sorry you had this experience.  How did you fee about it at the time?  Has that changed upon reflection?

Please be kind to yourself.

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

Thanks FF, if he doesn't believe it then I guess that's how he feels, as I'm reading Stop Walking on Eggshells I guess it's more to do with how he feels about himself and feeling unlovable than to do with me (?)

He said he was coming tonight but he just cancelled now...

[formflier]

I am interested in how you felt about saying you love him and having him NOT reciprocate.  I have to imagine that is confusing.  Have you sat with those feelings for a while?

Please be kind to yourself!

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

Yeah of course it hurt.  He was distant all day...wanting to spend time with me but it was like he put up a gigantic wall between us, at least that's how it felt to me. He wasn't chatty. Kept just going on his phone, making suggestions, lets go shop, lets go eat, lets have a picnic, but not actually being presently there the whole time. If that makes sense... It's kind of hard to describe.


So, the whole day was incredibly confusing. Reunited but not united at the same time.

I remember him being like this the last time too. But, that doesn't make it any easier on me.

He's messaged that he's too tired to come tonight but he'll come tomorrow or Sunday. Tomorrow is our anniversary..Sunday is my bday

I can't really sit and think about it too much as I find it all too upsetting, too overwhelming. Honestly I'm too emotionally and mentally exhausted

[babyducks]

well I am not sure about the time difference but even if I am late.   Happy birthday to you.

Maybe therapy is bringing that up in me more, delving into family stuff and there's issues happening between my brother and I.

Therapy can be quite difficult.   It takes time to work through all the issues.    many times its uncomfortable.      I would encourage you to stick with it.    hang in there.    its hard work but it will pay dividends.   

what my experience was, and for many of us here on the boards... there was something in our family of origin that primed us for being in a relationship with a person with a mental illness.   it felt familiar to us.    even the pain of it felt familiar.     

you are a good person who deserves to have someone care for you.    you are valuable, compassionate and kind.      hang in there and do something special for yourself.    give yourself a gift ... take a day and just do what you want for whatever reason you want.

'ducks

[formflier]

Happy Birthday from me to!    I hope this day is special for you!

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

 

Thank you babyducks' and FF.

Your birthday messages meant a lot  thank you 

[blackorchid]

He's here. He came for my bday. He's given me a beautiful necklace, which is a big deal as he doesn't normally do bday gifts (Turks arent big on them)

He ordered my fav sushi

But once again he is distant

not talking, just on his phone

It's like he is here but he's not at the same time

[formflier]

So..invite him to do something, without electronics.  No phone..no TV..no distractions.

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

I tried but he wasn't interested.  He went on the balcony alone listening to sad love songs and a beer.

He wasn't chatty at all and nothing would engage him into conversation...  He seemed incredibly tired, which I'm not surprised at. he has been drinking and going to bed too late every day as far as i can tell since he left home

[formflier]

My hope is that you went and did whatever it was you were inviting him to do. 

Was he drinking any while at your house?

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

Yeah I did but he just wasn't interested at all.

Yeah, he ordered beer from the market, I tried your line of "I'm not drinking right now" and stuck to it. But he carried on without me, but at least it was better than drinking spirits.

He was more respectful this time in that he did smoke on the balcony rather that in the house. But it was quite clear he didn't want me to sit there with him.  The last time he came in, he went to the bathroom and then to bed without saying anything to me.  From 9pm he was exhausted and I was encouraging him to sleep because I know he is on his last chance at work... (not from him, from his assistant manager)

When he came last week, he asked me to get something from his bag, and when I was getting it out I knocked a jewellery box...containing the necklace he gave me yesterday and matching earrings(of the Turkish evil eye).He arrived yesterday 10 mins early so I just grabbed the earrings that I had been wearing the previous day without thinking, they are also of the Turkish evil eye.  As we were sitting, he looked at me and said "Oh when did you get those earrings are they new?" I said no remember I showed you them when I got them on black Friday.  He went into the corridor, returned with the necklace in his hand and gave it me saying happy birthday.  Not in the nicest way...not nasty just a bit... off?
He didn't give it in the box or anything.  I don't know what it means, I'm guessing the earrings were still in his box.  I feel almost like he feels lost and not enough, which is why he is scrambling with ideas of new careers. Maybe he felt like his earring weren't as good as mine or was annoyed that I had something similar. But that's just tea leaf reading again.

I remember him being aloof in 2019 at a similar stage too, so I'm not trying to take it personally...

[formflier]

Does he contribute to expenses of the apartment? 

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

Usually yes, no he's moved out,no.  Although he did pay the water bill and a bill for he dog last month

[babyducks]

Does he contribute to expenses of the apartment? 

Best,

FF

FF.  I am blocked from replying to private messages.    Not sure what is the issue.   

[babyducks]

I remember him being aloof in 2019 at a similar stage too, so I'm not trying to take it personally...

this is a long standing pattern you have as a couple.    You have literally been doing this for years.   

I see two sides to this dynamic.    He treats you poorly.   That's one side.   The other side is you don't have strong boundaries that help you be treated better.

If I am understanding things correctly you are broken up...his decision.   Still he is coming and going from the house as if it were another hotel.

We are always encouraged here to look at our role in relationship issues.    Can you see how the idea of being aloof has been created and allowed in the relationship?

[blackorchid]

this is a long standing pattern you have as a couple.    You have literally been doing this for years.   

I see two sides to this dynamic.    He treats you poorly.   That's one side.   The other side is you don't have strong boundaries that help you be treated better.

If I am understanding things correctly you are broken up...his decision.   Still he is coming and going from the house as if it were another hotel.

We are always encouraged here to look at our role in relationship issues.    Can you see how the idea of being aloof has been created and allowed in the relationship?

I don't quite know how to explain it, normally when he is at baseline he isn't aloof, he is warm and caring and interested. Dare I say, a "normal" partner.

When he becomes like this he becomes aloof, guarded maybe? Like he asks to come, he asks to see me, he asks to spend time together...yet, when he comes he is disinterested and shuts himself off.

I don't like to push him/question him when he is like this as I don't want to cause him to rage again and go back to square one, I guess.  I feel like maybe he is testing how he feels around me now, but keeps emotionally closed off..
I really can't explain it very well.

You're right we have been doing it for years and it's not a place I want to be in again. After the last episode in 2019 we had been doing so much better and he hadn't dysregulated like this again.

On Saturday his friend & girlfriend came when he was here. They didn't know that we had split, or that he had moved out. They asked if we had been able to do anything about the wedding...

He told them we're not together. He said "she told me to F off , so I F'd off"
This still seems to be a major block for him.

He then drew the family card. As he always does. I disrespect his family. I don't treat his family well. etc etc etc

His family have never treated me well.  Hell, they don't even treat him well. His brother and sister know he has been suicidal but don't call or visit, but yet again, as ever, I am the bad guy.   I had to leave the terrace and come inside because I couldn't bare hearing about it.

I don't know...could he be on the edge of unsplitting me but finding issues to keep me "black"?

[formflier]

I don't quite know how to explain it, normally when he is at baseline he isn't aloof, he is warm and caring and interested. Dare I say, a "normal" partner.
 

This makes total sense to me!

Here is the counter-intuitive thing and it was also quite scary for me.

Applying boundaries, avoiding invalidation and validating emotions all work hand in hand to help return them to baseline sooner. 

I was scared that boundaries would push them away...and yes there was a VERY STRONG reaction to my boundaries, but then FFw stayed and over time the acting out was less and less.

For instance, it comes through loud and clear that you like him (love him is likely more accurate) a bunch more when he is not drinking.  So...it would be entirely reasonable for you to have a value based boundary that you will spend time with him sober and he is not welcome in YOUR apartment if he decides to drink.

Now..if this is something you want to work on or think you can do, I would advise we work on this "back here" for a while before you try communicating this with him.

It is important that whatever boundaries you choose are going to hold, or that you will hold to them, even when he tries to push past them.

How does this sit with you?

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

This makes total sense to me!

Here is the counter-intuitive thing and it was also quite scary for me.

Applying boundaries, avoiding invalidation and validating emotions all work hand in hand to help return them to baseline sooner. 

I was scared that boundaries would push them away...and yes there was a VERY STRONG reaction to my boundaries, but then FFw stayed and over time the acting out was less and less.

I guess I'm scared to start enforcing boundaries now when he is like this, as I don't want to
a)make him angry
b)push him away/reopen abandonment issues
c) leave myself open for an own goal of the style of, "We're not even together what are you talking about?"


I didn't know after he was saying to his friends on Sat again that I told him to F off ( in the middle of a very big argument, where I know I shouldn't have JADEd and got so mad) and so he has F off.  Maybe that needs a SET message or some validation around.

Or should I start with smaller boundaries first?

For instance, it comes through loud and clear that you like him (love him is likely more accurate) a bunch more when he is not drinking.  So...it would be entirely reasonable for you to have a value based boundary that you will spend time with him sober and he is not welcome in YOUR apartment if he decides to drink.

Yes, but I am deeply concerned with his drinking atm. My suspicion, along with his colleague, is that he is drinking every day. I don't think he would be willing rn to even consider not drinking. He won't even accept (according to the colleague) that getting caught drinking at work was the problem, even that somehow could be blamed on me.

The argument began due to drinking.  He raged that I'm not his parents, I can't tell him what to do, I can't control him, why am I always controlling him, if you don't like me drinking then I'll leave.  After rounds of this, was when I told him to F off and I left the room.

Part of me just thinks that this is a conversation that needs to wait for when we are in a better place...

Now..if this is something you want to work on or think you can do, I would advise we work on this "back here" for a while before you try communicating this with him.

It is important that whatever boundaries you choose are going to hold, or that you will hold to them, even when he tries to push past them.

I would be more than happy to work on them here, and am very grateful for the offer.

I know that alcohol is a very tough topic for me...hence me loosing my self control in the argument with him.  I tried to stop my parents drinking as a teen and young adult and lost the fight...my dad died of it. I have tried to get my mum to stop and also it has fell on deaf ears, so maybe that's why I put up with more surrounding this topic than other people.

Others have said to refuse to speak to him until he is not drinking, I guess my fear is that day won't come and that by doing so he will drink more and then do something stupid.


What do you think about him coming but then not interacting, have you experienced this with FFw?

[formflier]

The argument began due to drinking.  He raged that I'm not his parents, I can't tell him what to do, I can't control him, why am I always controlling him, if you don't like me drinking then I'll leave.  After rounds of this, was when I told him to F off and I left the room.
 

So...how often has "this dance" played out?  He drinks, you express disapproval, he claims not the boss of him, etc etc and you finally snap.

I'm guessing it has been going on for a while..right?  Can you even count how many times?  It's ok...I'm not trying to criticize you.  I am hoping you will see that "this way isn't productive".

So..even if you try something different and it falls flat..it's likely better than "f off"...right?

Yes..probably good for you to attempt some smaller things first.

What would you imagine those smaller things might be?

Best,

FF

[blackorchid]

So...how often has "this dance" played out?  He drinks, you express disapproval, he claims not the boss of him, etc etc and you finally snap.

I'm guessing it has been going on for a while..right?  Can you even count how many times?  It's ok...I'm not trying to criticize you.  I am hoping you will see that "this way isn't productive".

So..even if you try something different and it falls flat..it's likely better than "f off"...right?

Yes..probably good for you to attempt some smaller things first.

What would you imagine those smaller things might be?

Best,

FF

IT's happened far too many times, I know that and I know that it isn't productive but I have no idea what is or what would be better.

I feel like he is coming round...somewhat but something is still holding him back, so I don't know what to implement at the moment.

[Breakingpoint13]

blackorchid, please can you start working on yourself and knowing that you deserve so much better. Why do you believe you wont find better than this? We are only on this earth once, and we all deserve to have that filled with happiness and that stems from ourselves, no one else. When we realise how beautiful our souls and hearts are and that having empathy is a gift not a curse we all will find someone who appreciates that. You deserve a life not filled with happiness and security and admiration not this.

[blackorchid]

So, on Wednesday night he started messaging me asking me what I was doing, I said watching TV he replied, Ok Bitanem, which translates to my one and only. So its a very tender pet name.  It shocked me so much I didn't know what to reply.  He asked if he could come and see me... He started explaining about a big problem at work and that he was talking to work friends now, he'd come on the next service bus, which meant midnight... He had a day off on Thursday

He turned up drunk. Hugged me... got another pet name Hayatim (my life) and my love. He said he didn't feel well because he had drank so much and had ordered food. He then  passed out. When the food came, I unsucessfully tried to wake him. Then I just went to bed.

I left him sleeping on Thursday morning. It's clear that he has been drinking every night and not getting enough sleep... leading to the problems at work.

He started explaining the work problem and said they're right I have been drinking too much, hungover at work, late etc.  He then said (FINALLY) that he needs help and that he wants to stop drinking. He said he needs to see a psychiatrist and needs medication and can I help him. He went for a shower. I tried to get him an appointment but he said it was too expensive. Wouldn't accept any help. He looked at the state doctors but the nearest appointment was 13th August.  There were no appointments on a Monday which is his usual day off.

I'm wondering how to bring this up with him again and to make sure he makes and goes to an appointment...


He is obsessed still with the idea of this ex teammate getting him a job in England.  Saying lets go we can all live there with your mum! Yet, not having any conversation with me about where we are at.

He left to go to an appointment ... at the city football club, he's trying to become a football manager and had scouted a player for a tryout.

 I feel like he is jumping all over the place and scrambling at jobs...
 |--->a coach
 |--->a manager
 |--->his normal job
 |--->work experience in England
 |--->then he started talking about going to Ukraine in Sept to learn Russian, because he needs it in the hotel...

It's hard to keep up.


Later that evening he messaged me
Will I come home?
I said if you want to
He replied Maybe I will go to the work accommodation. I don't know yet
I said do you want to come here
He said I don't know, do you want me to?
Yes i said
he said, but i must go to the work accommodation.
I asked so why did you ask to come home
he replied, because I am indecisive, I always am.
I'll come another time

[blackorchid]

We spoke last night, messaging, calls and videos. He said he wanted to come home, that he loves me, can he come home. He said that we were ok, that we will be ok, That he misses me, wants us to be together.. etc etc etc

Today, he says that he was drunk and when he's drunk he will say anything.

He didn't seem drunk on the phone... or on the video calls...

I am beyond exhausted

[babyducks]

I am beyond exhausted

of course you are exhausted.   you have a lot going on.   and most of it difficult.

self care blackorchid.   lots and lots of self care.   what are you doing to take care of yourself...

[formflier]

I would like to hear about your self care as well.

Best,

FF