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Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits. Practicing lawyer, Senior Family Mediator, and former Licensed Clinical Social Worker with twelve years’ experience and an expert on navigating the Family Court process.
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Tiller

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« on: July 12, 2021, 07:55:45 PM »

Hi, I have a partner who has been diagnosed with Complex PTSD by one psychologist, however I am really concerned that this is not the correct diagnosis. It seems from her behavior and the trauma referred to that she may have BPD.

She has a massive fear of abandonment, frequent uncontrollable angry outbursts, lack of a sense of self, extreme feeling of emptiness, feelings that the world has inflicted all of her problems on her, frequent periods of dissociation and using food and social media as numbing agents.

The trauma that she feels is at the root of her CPTSD is emotional neglect from her parents growing up. In the first 10 years of our relationship we were really close with her parents and they helped us immensely when our two children who are now 3 and 5 were born. I have found them to be very supportive and loving in-laws.
My Partner's mother was severely physically and sexually abused as a child and as a result she is very conflict avoidant and has a bit of a hard time connecting on a deep emotion level. My partner feels that this she experienced extreme emotional neglect as a child, but her parents feel like this was far from the case.
Since my partner was a teen she has suffered depressive episodes which have seen her hospitalized and for periods of time and she has had at least one attempt on her life.
She feels now that this was all to do with CPTSD and not depression.
She has now cut all contact with her entire family because they do not agree with her statements regarding her childhood. She doesn't want me contacting them and doesn't want our children to have any contact. She now feels a deep sense of despair that her family have abandoned her even though she severed contact. She feels like she has no friends and that their is no point trying to make friends because nobody is safe.
After a recent trip back to Darwin where she grew up and where we lived pre-kids she has completely disconnected from life where we live and is trying to convince me that we have no community , no friends and no-one who cares about our children. However she actively avoids socially engaging because she feels unsafe. I feel a strong sense of community and that the biggest barrier to us deepening relationships is that my partner doesn't feel safe with people. I can feel that she would like nothing better than to run away from our current situation and probably return to Darwin, but we have our kids in great schools, I have a good job, we have just bought a house and really we are kind of living in paradise on paper. we are a 10 minute walk from a beautiful beach, our kids are in a great Steiner school and the climate is great where we live. I feel like too many times I have accommodated her ideas about what will definitely 'fix' our lives. I've changed jobs, went to 4 days a week, moved town where we've bought a house, I look after the kids almost exclusively outside work hours, I often come home early from work when she's feeling 'catatonic'.

She has such an acute fear of abandonment and she has a number of long standing relationships that have deteriorated into no contact that seem to have been sabotaged by this fear of abandonment.
She has now disconnected from me and our two children and feels utterly hopeless and just stays in bed all the time. She won't talk to me because she feels like our conversations go nowhere and she yells at the kids as soon as they complain or fight with each other.
She has asked me not to talk to any of her friends about how she is and then complains that nobody is there to help us and how alone we are.

She is unwilling to accept anything other than 100% agreement with her version of her childhood to try to repair her relationship with her parents, and honestly we really need them more than ever right now to help with the kids. I am teetering on burnout and all avenues for help are being denied as options.
I don't feel like I can or should suggest my concerns about misdiagnosis as the ramifications of this would be that I would be accused of never having believed any of it and that I would become the enemy.

I guess I'm looking for some support as to how to move forward for all of our sakes, but particularly our beautiful children who are really suffering.
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Ventak
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« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2021, 11:55:53 PM »

Hi Tiller, and welcome to the family!

There are many parallels between your story and mine, so I hope you are able to get as much from this site as I have.  It is a very friendly, helpful forum with amazing tools to help you navigate through difficult relationships.

Are you feeling conflicted about staying in the relationship, or looking for some help in how to improve things?
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Tiller

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« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2021, 06:03:48 AM »

I want to improve things in our relationship, but I’m worried that there will be a time that I just won’t be able to do it anymore. I’m so worried about the impact this is having on our daughters.
My partner has not left bed for the past week and I can’t get her to really talk to me, even when I try my absolute best to empathise with and validate her feelings, she sees this as a facade for what she perceives as the way I really feel. I feel really helpless!
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Ventak
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« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2021, 10:15:37 AM »

I want to improve things in our relationship, but I’m worried that there will be a time that I just won’t be able to do it anymore. I’m so worried about the impact this is having on our daughters.
My partner has not left bed for the past week and I can’t get her to really talk to me, even when I try my absolute best to empathise with and validate her feelings, she sees this as a facade for what she perceives as the way I really feel. I feel really helpless!

So sorry you are experiencing this, I know how difficult it can be.

About 8 months ago I was in the exact position you find yourself, with 2 year old twins.  It has been a real struggle, but my BPDw and I are starting to do better, in part because of things I've learned from others and the articles on this site.

Here are a couple short articles that I think will give you a good start.  Let me know how it goes and I'll add to the list ;)
https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-does-it-take-be-relationship
https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/fuzzetti.pdf

It is important to remember that you can not change another person, but you can make changes in your communication and expectations that will make a tremendous difference in your relationship.

One of the most important lessons is that you need to take care of yourself, or you will not be in the place to help others.  This is especially true when small children are involved.  Think of it as needing to put your oxygen mask on first in an airplane emergency, or you won't have the energy to help the rest of the family.  What type of support structure do you have? (Family, friends, therapist, etc..).  What are you doing to take care of you and your needs?
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Ventak
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« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2021, 10:37:44 AM »

It is important to remember that you can not change another person, but you can make changes in your communication and expectations that will make a tremendous difference in your relationship.

I want to highlight the "expectations" piece of what I wrote above.  That was my "aha" moment.  Once I accepted that it is unrealistic to expect "normal/rational" behavior from a pwBPD, I realized how I was doing considerable damage to our relationship.  My W would constantly tell me that she didn't feel heard, that I was invalidating her, that she suppressed her thoughts in order to appease me.  Once I understood that even though my reality and her reality were completely opposite, but her reality was completely accurate to her...  I began to understand how she would feel that way. 

To me, I always heard everything she said quite clearly but thought that if I only showed her the data that proved my reality was "the reality" she would understand and see reason.  I would repeat this cycle over, and over, and over, and over.  But all the physical evidence in the world will not alter a pwBPD's version of events, it is only about the emotions they feel at the time.  So I was, in fact, not listening to her.. I was, in fact, invalidating her..

I also read a scientific paper that showed through MRI brain scans how fear is extremely heightened with pwBPD even under neutral events, and logical processing is repressed during fear events making it all "fight or flight".  This helped me realize that my W was experiencing fear where most would not and did not have the tools to get past it logically.  Understanding that I need to expect a fear response leading to fight/flight helps me ground myself during those moments.  I remember how I have responded in the past experiencing intense fear and what it can do to your ability to communicate with others.

I have also read in many places that emotional regulation in pwBPD is stunted around the age of 2.  Having 2 year old toddlers and seeing their emotional dysregulation helps me keep perspective.  I don't argue with my twins, I don't expect them to be rational.  I set clear boundaries and try to help them through the storm.

Sorry to ramble, but understanding these things was huge in my journey and I thought it might be good to clarify what I meant.

Glad you found us.
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Tiller

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« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2021, 07:13:56 PM »

Thanks for the reply, it feels great to talk about this. I feel like I'm holding so much back from my partner; holding back my concern that she has BPD and not CPTSD, holding back that I think that she's treating her parents unfairly by cutting them off completely with contact from her and their grandchildren because they won't agree with her statements of the emotional neglect and emotional abuse she experienced as a child (they dispute strongly that any of this every happened).. She now states daily that her family have cut her off, even though she was the one who asked them to stopped contacting her. I try to just empathetically listen to how she feels about this, but feel so frustrated because she seems to have this all so wrongheaded. My girls ask all the time if they can see grandma and grandpa and it breaks my heart every time.

I'm really worried that by providing validation I'm just strengthening her beliefs that everyone has abandoned her when in fact she is abandoning them because they disagree with her. I so easily fall into the rescuer role, when I know I can't really fix anything, it needs to come from her. I find myself trying so hard to listen to her and feel what she feels, but it's just so painful for me because so much of it seems to be based on a reality that others don't share.
She has now been in bed and unwilling to talk to me for 7 days now, apart from telling me that there is no use in trying because everything is pointless and that we are completely alone.
I'm just not sure how to balance validating her emotions with meeting my families dire need for help from those who are not allowed to give it.
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Ventak
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« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2021, 09:02:25 PM »

Thanks for the reply, it feels great to talk about this. I feel like I'm holding so much back from my partner; holding back my concern that she has BPD and not CPTSD.

Many mental health conditions have similar symptoms and are difficult if not impossible to differentiate, and can be done so only by the best professionals.  My BPDw has been diagnosed at different times with BPD, Anti-Social PD, PTSD, Depression, Anxiety, DID (self).  At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter to me what the diagnosis is, I look at her behaviors (which are very similar to what you experience).  For years I have made the mistake of pointing out behaviors as being a sign of her mental health.  I've recently understood that this has made her feel worse about herself and eroded trust in our relationship.  I haven't brought it up for a couple months now, which seems to help.  Instead I focus solely on the behaviors that affect me, such as "It really hurts me when you accuse me of hacking into your phone.  I did not do it, and I'm letting you know that if you accuse me again I'm going to hang up the call and take a break for an hour or so."  Whereas before I might say something about her being in the middle of one of her BPD episodes.  Does this make sense?

holding back that I think that she's treating her parents unfairly by cutting them off completely with contact from her and their grandchildren because they won't agree with her statements of the emotional neglect and emotional abuse she experienced as a child (they dispute strongly that any of this every happened).. She now states daily that her family have cut her off, even though she was the one who asked them to stopped contacting her. I try to just empathetically listen to how she feels about this, but feel so frustrated because she seems to have this all so wrongheaded. My girls ask all the time if they can see grandma and grandpa and it breaks my heart every time.

This is one of the hardest things to deal with in a relationship with a pwBPD.  Their memories are not grounded in reality.. but are completely real to them.  The important thing is to validate the emotion, but not the distortion.  I'm struggling mightily with this part right now.  I'm on the autism spectrum and our brains don't process naturally for this distinction.  Saying something like "It must be really painful to feel cut off from your family, anyone would be hurting from that" might work, though someone with more experience might be able to give you better advice.  Just remember that her emotion of feeling cut off is just as real as if it is exactly how it happened.

She has now been in bed and unwilling to talk to me for 7 days now, apart from telling me that there is no use in trying because everything is pointless and that we are completely alone.

This sentence concerns me, greatly.  Do you believe that she is suicidal, or having suicidal ideations?  It might be a good idea to reach out to a local suicide hotline and discuss what is going on and get their advice.  Persons diagnosed with BPD have an 8% suicide success rate, so I tend to track my W's SI closely.

I'm just not sure how to balance validating her emotions with meeting my families dire need for help from those who are not allowed to give it.
Have you heard of or read the book "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get on with Life"?  It has helped many people struggling with this balance, and helped me understand myself much better.

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Tiller

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« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2021, 05:56:34 AM »

My partner just informed me that we have to leave our wonderful town. She want to move as many thousands of kms away as is possible and is already madly looking for schools and jobs. She wants to move because she feels abandoned by everyone and needs to start again.

Im really struggling to know how to validate the ways she feel right now because I am so panicked by what she is saying. I pretty certain moving isn’t going to solve anything and is probably going to make things even more isolated, but as soon as I even give her a whiff of disagreement she just lashes out at me. I feel like I need to confront her about all this and have no idea how I would possibly go snout it because anything I say will be contradicting what she knows to be true.

Any advice?
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ForeverDad
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« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2021, 02:44:04 PM »

There's no easy advice.  Fortunately you realize that picking up and moving far away will not resolve her issues.  Eventually she would perceive being there also isolating and abandoned and want to move again all too soon.

Browse our Tools and Skills workshops board and read the threads on Boundaries, perhaps other topics too.  You've learned that she resists normal boundaries, right?   Well, all is not lost,you can have boundaries for yourself that may positively impact her.  A very simplistic example for illustration could be "If you do or don't do ___ then I will do or not do ___."  Of course, it's not easy but a healthy boundary is to protect the you, her, the kids, even possibly the relationship.

What would it be like if you set your boundary that you refuse to acquiesce to her wishes and move away (from current jobs, housing, family, local resources)?  Probably moving would incur a large financial and logistical expense while her issues would just follow her there.

Are you worried that if you refused to leave that she would move anyway?  That she would take the kids with her?  If that happened, what would you do?  Would you file in family court to keep your kids with you considering her issues?  Have you explored local legal resources to determine the best ways to handle such scenarios?  These are some huge issues that will affect the next 15 years as your children grow up.
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Tiller

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« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2021, 06:41:25 PM »

I can see that I have to show where my boundaries are. Her black and whit thinking is just so difficult. She has a childhood friend here that has ‘abandoned’ her and because of that she feels like everyone here will always take this friend’s side, even though the majority of our friends aren’t friends with this person, but her argument will be that we’ve given it 5 years here and it just hasn’t worked, we have no friends, no village (Im growing to hate this term with its lack of relevance to how our society functions) and no family. I spoke to both her dad and her sister and they want her back so badly but they just can’t take any more vitriolic abuse. Do you think that it’s a cop out if my limit is that I won’t consider moving until she has got a job and means of funding a move? Personally, I feel like I can adapt to new surroundings pretty easily, but I feel like it’s unlikely to  help her and would be really disruptive to the kids.
There is part of me that thinks it could be best for me and the kids to try take some space from her, but that would be so hard on everyone.
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babyducks
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« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2021, 07:15:30 AM »

Tiller -

let me join the others in welcoming you to this site.   glad you are here and glad you are posting.    the more you can post the more it will help.    many times just the simple act of getting our thoughts out - written out, can help us organize them.


I feel like I'm holding so much back from my partner; holding back my concern that she has BPD and not CPTSD, holding back that I think that she's treating her parents unfairly by cutting them off completely with contact from her and their grandchildren because they won't agree with her statements of the emotional neglect and emotional abuse she experienced as a child (they dispute strongly that any of this every happened)..

I understand its hard to not share what we are thinking with those who are supposed to be closest to us.   it does feel difficult and just wrong.    however, I think in this case, right now, you are doing the right thing.    from what you describe of your partner her ability to receive any new information or process it is very lacking.    adding more emotional and intellectual stress is probably not a wise choice.

as to the difference between CPTSD and BPD.   they are, as you know, very similar.    and of course psychiatric diagnosis is very subjective...there is no blood test or medical test that can 'prove' BPD or CPTSD.    a diagnosis is based on the psychologist's educated opinions, experiences, and influences instead of a blood test or xray.    for many of us - we have a deep need to have the 'right' diagnosis because it makes us feel better.    the reality often is the 'treatment plan' won't change significantly regardless of diagnosis.

I'm really worried that by providing validation I'm just strengthening her beliefs that everyone has abandoned her when in fact she is abandoning them because they disagree with her.

Validation is a hard skill to learn.    Its not intuitive.   and its not agreement.   it does not mean validating the invalid.   let me use a silly example.   if you told me that you really really believe that today you were going to win a million dollars in the lottery - I wouldn't attempt to validate the win.    it's not possible to know if you are going to win or not so I would look for another validation target.   often finding the validation target is hard...but the target tends to be around the emotions in play -   my quick attempt at validating the lottery win is:

Wow Tiller - that must be an interesting sensation,  what's going on that makes you feel that way?

that's a validating question...   doesn't agree with your feeling but opens the door to expressing them.

Im really struggling to know how to validate the ways she feel right now because I am so panicked by what she is saying. I pretty certain moving isn’t going to solve anything and is probably going to make things even more isolated, but as soon as I even give her a whiff of disagreement she just lashes out at me. I feel like I need to confront her about all this and have no idea how I would possibly go snout it because anything I say will be contradicting what she knows to be true.

Any advice?

Ever hear of SET?    S=Support  E=Empathy T=Truth   SET is a communication tool to help deal with highly charged emotional topics.   Three statements.    A support statement:    think about them before hand,  its even okay to prepare some SET pieces in advance to use in tough spots.

S:   I can see this is very important to you.
E:  I know this has been a very difficult period of time.
T:  Still, I want to make the best decisions we can for our family so I need to slow this down and think it through.

Do you think that it’s a cop out if my limit is that I won’t consider moving until she has got a job and means of funding a move?

No, its not a cop out.     Moves need to be planned.   many many things need to be considered.   You have a right to consider your needs and the children's needs.

my two cents
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Tiller

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« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2021, 11:17:04 PM »

Thanks so much, some really helpful insight and suggestions. I can see so much more clearly that any perceived transgression from my partner's reality sends her into a rage. This rage serves to bring me back into the caretaker role because I hate the conflict and it feels like I could never 'win'. I'm still struggling a bit to understand if I am able to, or it is wise to, bring some accountability into the distortions she has. One example is that she feels like she has been abandoned by her family, whereas it was her that wanted to cut contact unless they validated all of her distorted stories. Do I just say I can see how much being disconnected from her family is hurting her or do I point out that she cut off contact with them? As I write this I know that pointing this out would only be me acting yet again as the rescuer trying to fix their relationship and invalidating her feeling. Probably best to just acknowledge her emotions. But the fall out of doing this is that nothing changes, we still have no contact with the people who love our family more than anyone else and are absolutely itching to provide us with support. Adding to this, our little girls won't be able to have contact with the grandparents, which they almost daily request.

There is part of me that is trying to allow myself to think a bit more long term about the viability of our relationship. Neither one of us is happy and our kids are suffering the fall out of that. But the idea of separation is so scary. I really would love to keep our family unit together, but I don't know anymore if that is in everyone's best interest.
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Ventak
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« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2021, 11:45:05 PM »

...or do I point out that she cut off contact with them? As I write this I know that pointing this out would only be me acting yet again as the rescuer trying to fix their relationship and invalidating her feeling. Probably best to just acknowledge her emotions. But the fall out of doing this is that nothing changes

Trying to follow this.  You believe that acknowledging her emotions will avoid a rage, but the downside is that nothing changes.  Do you have any positive history where doing something that caused a rage resulted in a positive change?  This does sometimes work with my BPDw, but only certain areas where eventually she is able to process something.  Some areas I know will never get that level of scrutiny because her pain is too deep.

There is part of me that is trying to allow myself to think a bit more long term about the viability of our relationship. Neither one of us is happy and our kids are suffering the fall out of that. But the idea of separation is so scary. I really would love to keep our family unit together, but I don't know anymore if that is in everyone's best interest.

This is a very tough, and very personal decision.  There are many posts on this forum on this topic, both positive and negative.  I'm in the "try to work it out camp"  with my W, and am quite positive that both are a lot of work and a lot of energy.  Hopefully you are taking care of yourself along the journey.
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ForeverDad
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« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2021, 01:35:17 AM »

Ventak is right, it is your decision as to how to handle your life and your relationships.  What we can do is educate you on communication skills and tools that that enable you to make more informed and more confident decisions.  Often there is not a clear right or wrong choice.

for example, you're pondering whether to stay or go, to keep trying or to call it quits.  On the marriage, not the parenting.  You're the more stable parent and the kids definitely need you as much in their lives as possible.

I'll comment in a very, very generalized way.  Your decision on which path to take may turn out to be dependent on how dysfunctional her behaviors are and how responsive she is and whether she will make sufficient positive changes.  If not too severe, perhaps you can manage it over time.  For example, formflier is doing that.  Many others had more extreme cases that the only resolution was with divorce.  That is what I did since my parenting was being obstructed and my then-spouse was making horrid allegations and eventually court agreed.  Though it started me with just alternate weekends, by the time several years had passed I had both guardianship (legal custody) and majority time during the school year.  Here are a few questions you can ponder as you're learning:

Has she threatened (or even just contemplated) making allegations against you or your parenting?  Our collective wisdom here has learned that such threats or contemplating it will happen, given enough time.  You don't want to be caught unprepared should she eventually do that.

Over the years and with your continuing efforts,  has the family environment improved, been unchanged or is it getting worse?  The pattern we typically experience is that over time it gets worse despite our efforts.

Do you think that by tapping our experience that your education on what usually works and what usually doesn't work, the communication skills, tools and boundaries, that you will instead see improvement?  Of course, you don't know yet, you just got here, but be watchful for improvements — or lack of them — over the weeks and months ahead.

One more heads up... Telling her that she has to find a job before moving may appear to make common sense but what it's doing is telling her that you'll move once she finds a job elsewhere.  I don't think you want to do that.  You may have just been listing some of the obstacles to a move but she probably perceives it as you already agreeing to a move if she does certain preparations.  I previously posted that you can set a boundary that you're not going to move because moving would be for the wrong reason.  How she would react is of course another matter.
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« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2021, 04:42:04 AM »

I'm still struggling a bit to understand if I am able to, or it is wise to, bring some accountability into the distortions she has. One example is that she feels like she has been abandoned by her family, whereas it was her that wanted to cut contact unless they validated all of her distorted stories. Do I just say I can see how much being disconnected from her family is hurting her or do I point out that she cut off contact with them?

this was my experience.     my then partner now Ex was diagnosed bipolar 1 comorbid with BPD.    she was compliant with medication, and regular with therapy.    even with medication it was a struggle to keep the bipolar mania under any control.    she did become psychotic from time to time.   and especially experienced delusions around the weather.   she often believed the weather was sending her messages.   the wind was telling the car which direction to go in.   the thunderstorm was telling her secrets.    that sort of thing.  there was one time she was determined to go up on the roof (12 stories) during a raging thunderstorm.   

my personal rule was I would not validate anything that was untrue (invalid).  I would not validate anything that was dangerous. and yes sometimes this caused titanic rages.   

there a different set of tools and skills to deal with the rages.     I vividly remember how scary they were and how fast they appeared.     it took me a while to understand that me always avoiding the rages was not a successful strategy either.     there really were times when I had to draw a boundary and say what I was thinking.    I said it using the best communication skills and tools I had.    that was the best I could do to making sure it was received clearly.

There is part of me that is trying to allow myself to think a bit more long term about the viability of our relationship. Neither one of us is happy and our kids are suffering the fall out of that. But the idea of separation is so scary. I really would love to keep our family unit together, but I don't know anymore if that is in everyone's best interest.

give yourself some time to consider all the ramifications of this.     its not a simple decision.    my partner was severely mentally ill, but was working to manage the illness.    because she was making honest fruitful efforts to manage her mental health I felt I could stay.    right up until the stress grew to much for her and some serious violence broke out.    its a very personal decision.     everyone's circumstances are unique.

keep posting.

'ducks
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« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2021, 11:53:28 PM »

Thank you all so much for all your contributions, it's really helpful!

I've noticed that since I've been doing a much deeper dive into BPD and how to break out of the caretaker role, I've started to withdraw a bit from engaging with my partner. Everyday I go in and try to check in with her, and every time she tells me that she would like to be alone. I can tell that she feels like I am not validating her emotions and probably sees that as me abandoning her. Tonight I'm going to try to use SET communication tools a bit more and see how it goes. My biggest concern is that I'll get sidelined by her big feelings and feel put on the spot and be unable to remember what to say or not say, and then I'll just be quiet, which really triggers her.

I imagine the conversation will go something like this:
Me: I've noticed that you've been a bit distant the last few days. How are you going?
Partner: I don't want to talk about it, just go to bed.
Me: I really care about you and I would like to hear about how you are feeling.
Partner: Whenever I talk about how I'm feeling you just look uncomfortable and it feels like I'm talking into the wind.
Me: That must feel upsetting feeling like I don't want to listen to you. Even if I seem uncomfortable, I still would like to listen to you.

From here she will either ask to be  left alone, to which I guess I'll reply that I'll respect that, but if she wants to talk I am willing to listen. The other way it may go is into a tirade about being miserable where we are and that I don't care and that everyone has abandoned us and we have no community and that our family would be better off without her.

I'm not sure of the best way to tackle this one, but I was thinking of saying. I can see you're feeling upset about a lot of different things, can we talk about them one at a time?

Her response might be "I hate it here, we need to leave."

I could respond with "I can hear that you're unhappy with the way things are going here and you feel that moving might be the answer. My feeling is that moving would be really disruptive for the kids and I and even though I hear that you don't feel supported here, if we moved we would need to start again with finding an entirely new support system. Right now for me moving doesn't feel like the right thing to do".

This is all pretty new to me and I'm really open to suggestions and advice!

Another thing that's been happening a lot lately is requests for me to come pick up the kids because she cant cope with leaving the house. This means leaving work far too early. I'm torn between 'getting away with' leaving work early and being there to shield the kids from the impacts of an emotionally disregulated parent. I find I'm doing this a lot, doing all the housework, running the finances, doing all the cooking. Basically I've fallen into the role of doing everything because my partner 'can't' do it.

She just asked if I can pick up our eldest a 3:30, when I shouldn't be finishing at work until 4:30, so I wrote that I cant pick her up because I've been leaving work early too much lately and my work is piling up. It feels good to say no and stop being the rescuer, but I'm worried about the impact on our kids.
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« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2021, 05:02:58 AM »

hello again

I can tell that she feels like I am not validating her emotions and probably sees that as me abandoning her.

hmmmmm.    that's an interesting thought.    can you say more about how you can tell this?   what specifically makes you draw the conclusion that she feels abandoned?

I imagine the conversation will go something like this:
Me: I've noticed that you've been a bit distant the last few days. How are you going?
Partner: I don't want to talk about it, just go to bed.
Me: I really care about you and I would like to hear about how you are feeling.
Partner: Whenever I talk about how I'm feeling you just look uncomfortable and it feels like I'm talking into the wind.
Me: That must feel upsetting feeling like I don't want to listen to you. Even if I seem uncomfortable, I still would like to listen to you.

great idea to play around with trying out conversations.    Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)   nicely done.    there  isn't one particular way that is 'best' or the way that works.   different approaches to communication work better at different times with different people.   some of this is trial and error.     here are a couple of ideas to bounce around when you look at this potential conversation.


Me: I've noticed that you've been a bit distant the last few days. How are you going?

couple of ideas for you to consider.    Let's say emotions exist on a scale of 1 to 10.     Like the Richter scale of magnitude.    Where do you think she is on the emotional scale when you begin this conversation?    a 1?   a 5?   a 9?    wherever she is you want to be one number below that.   lets say she's at a 5.   you want to consider when and how much emotion to add to the conversation...   and you want to be at a 4 to keep the conversation at a more even keel... make sense?

let's look at "I've noticed that you've been a bit distant the last few days."   is this adding emotion?    and is this the emotion you want to add to the mix?    could she 'hear' this as a criticism?    an accusation?     contrast "I've noticed that you've been a bit distant the last few days. How are you going?"  with 'it feels to me that things have been a bit distant between us the last few days.   how do you feel its going?'   changing a few words can change the overall 'feel' of the sentence.  

 pay attention to "I"  and the "You".     typically I / You statements are fraught with more difficulty.    and tend to accelerate a conversation.    You want I statements to be clear simple statements of what you think, feel, need.    I need.    I feel.   I want.    I think.    I suggest.     You statements should have more of a questioning tone.   are you x or are you y?    

Partner: I don't want to talk about it, just go to bed.
Me: I really care about you and I would like to hear about how you are feeling.

here is a place you might want to try a SET.    first she told you what she wants.   and you blew right by it.    she doesn't want to talk.  she wants to just go to bed.   validation doesn't mean agreeing it means acknowledging... acknowledging what she said.    

Partner: I don't want to talk about it, just go to bed.
Support:   okay if you don't want to talk.
Empathy:  sometimes it sucks to have these conversations
Truth: I would like to talk about things later when we both feel up to it.

lets keep playing around with this:

Partner: I don't want to talk about it, just go to bed.
Support:   okay we can talk about this another time.
Empathy:  we've had a lot of tiring conversations lately. we are both probably tired.
Truth: We can try again later when things feel better.

what do you think?    

Me: I really care about you and I would like to hear about how you are feeling.
Partner: Whenever I talk about how I'm feeling you just look uncomfortable and it feels like I'm talking into the wind.
Me: That must feel upsetting feeling like I don't want to listen to you. Even if I seem uncomfortable, I still would like to listen to you.

hmmmm.    my thought is you are starting to head off into the weeds here.   "I really care about you"   may be an absolutely true statement.   how you convey that message... the words you pick and your timing is important.    she told you she didn't want to talk... but you invalidated that statement by going on to say ~essentially~ I don't care what you want talk to me now anyhow...  but the message gets mixed with I really care about you tell me how you are feeling even though she doesn't want to...     see where I am going with this?

again she pushes the conversation off - you just look uncomfortable and I feel like I am talking to the wind...   you take a shot at acknowledging her feeling here but it doesn't seem to land.    it could sound like you are rushing by the acknowledgement to reach your point 'I would still like to listen to you'.     pay careful attention to the I and You statements.   You statements can come across as blaming.    Don't tell her what her emotions are -   don't tell her she's uncomfortable... ask her.    Contrast these two statements "Me: That must feel upsetting feeling like I don't want to listen to you. Even if I seem uncomfortable, I still would like to listen to you."     If it were me, I would feel upset that someone isn't listening, kind of irritated.   Is that how it works for you?    Sometimes I do feel uncomfortable in some of our conversations still I do want to listen to you.

I'm going to pause here for a minute.     Looking forward to your thoughts.

'ducks
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« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2021, 06:43:39 PM »

Thanks Ducks, some very useful stuff in there. Here are some of my thoughts.

 
Excerpt
hmmmmm.    that's an interesting thought.    can you say more about how you can tell this?   what specifically makes you draw the conclusion that she feels abandoned?
In my past experience when I don't give her emotions (or story) validation she has told me that she feels completely alone. I am drawing a conclusion from that that if she feels alone, there is a pretty good chance that  she's feeling abandoned because this has been the pattern I have observed over time.

Excerpt
couple of ideas for you to consider.    Let's say emotions exist on a scale of 1 to 10.     Like the Richter scale of magnitude.    Where do you think she is on the emotional scale when you begin this conversation?    a 1?   a 5?   a 9?    wherever she is you want to be one number below that.   lets say she's at a 5.   you want to consider when and how much emotion to add to the conversation...   and you want to be at a 4 to keep the conversation at a more even keel... make sense?

Makes sense, I actively try to keep my level a few notches below hers. She has expressed in the past that she finds this triggering because I don't feel angry enough about the injustices that have been inflicted on her.

Excerpt
let's look at "I've noticed that you've been a bit distant the last few days."   is this adding emotion?    and is this the emotion you want to add to the mix?    could she 'hear' this as a criticism?    an accusation?     contrast "I've noticed that you've been a bit distant the last few days. How are you going?"  with 'it feels to me that things have been a bit distant between us the last few days.   how do you feel its going?'   changing a few words can change the overall 'feel' of the sentence.  

I can see that removing the you and I from statements does take away a bit of their sounding accusatory, I can see that be saying that 'it feels to me that things have been a bit distant between us the last few days' puts equal responsibility onto both of us for the distance rather than accusing her of being distant. I'll try play around with dropping the I and You from statement.

Excerpt
here is a place you might want to try a SET.    first she told you what she wants.   and you blew right by it.    she doesn't want to talk.  she wants to just go to bed.   validation doesn't mean agreeing it means acknowledging... acknowledging what she said.    

Partner: I don't want to talk about it, just go to bed.
Support:   okay if you don't want to talk.
Empathy:  sometimes it sucks to have these conversations
Truth: I would like to talk about things later when we both feel up to it.

lets keep playing around with this:

Partner: I don't want to talk about it, just go to bed.
Support:   okay we can talk about this another time.
Empathy:  we've had a lot of tiring conversations lately. we are both probably tired.
Truth: We can try again later when things feel better.

what do you think?    

It's true, I did blow past the feeling of her wanting to be alone. When she says that I hear 'you're not going to listen to me properly so there is no point talking and you may as well go'. The reason I make this deduction is because she has said it to me many times before. Regardless of this I can see that it is better to acknowledge what she is saying rather than reading into it, if she wants to elaborate on her feelings I'll leave that up to her.

Excerpt
hmmmm.    my thought is you are starting to head off into the weeds here.   "I really care about you"   may be an absolutely true statement.   how you convey that message... the words you pick and your timing is important.    she told you she didn't want to talk... but you invalidated that statement by going on to say ~essentially~ I don't care what you want talk to me now anyhow...  but the message gets mixed with I really care about you tell me how you are feeling even though she doesn't want to...     see where I am going with this?

Perhaps here I could I could say "Ok, I really care about you and would really like to talk together about this later".

Excerpt
again she pushes the conversation off - you just look uncomfortable and I feel like I am talking to the wind...   you take a shot at acknowledging her feeling here but it doesn't seem to land.    it could sound like you are rushing by the acknowledgement to reach your point 'I would still like to listen to you'.     pay careful attention to the I and You statements.   You statements can come across as blaming.    Don't tell her what her emotions are -   don't tell her she's uncomfortable... ask her.    Contrast these two statements "Me: That must feel upsetting feeling like I don't want to listen to you. Even if I seem uncomfortable, I still would like to listen to you."     If it were me, I would feel upset that someone isn't listening, kind of irritated.   Is that how it works for you?    Sometimes I do feel uncomfortable in some of our conversations still I do want to listen to you.

Interesting, what I was going for here is validating her feelings the she doesn't feel like I'm listening to her without arguing the fact that I was listening to her. My looking uncomfortable to a subjective statement, and by me saying "even if I seem uncomfortable, I would still like to listen to you" I am trying to not invalidate her feeling that I am not listening to her, but expressing clearly that I would.

I can see that she actively trying to avoid talking to me at the moment, and part of me is relieved, because in some ways it's easier, because there is no conflict, but on the other hand I can see that she's really hurting. I'm trying to get out of the drama triangle that we have lived for so many years, where I would try go in too rescue her from her bad feelings, but now I just feel a bit unkind that I'm not engaging as much. I

I had another interested interaction yesterday. The other day I noting that over $200 had come out of our account for tickets for a concert. My partner has completely stopped participating in the management of our finances, I am managing everything at present, and whilst I don't think this is particularly healthy, it is how things are functioning at the moment. When I noticed this unanticipated expense I got a bit panicked as we have quite a few bills to pay so I texted here the following:

Me: "Hi honey, did you buy tickets for something for $228 a couple of days ago?
Partner: "Yes"
Me: "In the future can you please talk to me before buying things like this? I'd like to be in the loop as for better or worse I am the primary manager of our finances. There are quite a few bills that need paying and I'm worried we will run out of money this pay cycle"
My: partner 3 day later "I can't PLEASE READing believe you would send me a text message like this"
Me: I can hear that you are upset, I'm happy to talk about it. We just had to pay a bunch of bills and we are I wasn't expecting this expense. I'm just asking if you can let me know before any large expense items. It's fine, we can afford it, but I'm just asking if you can give me a heads up next time.

There has been no further discussion, but when I go home she got in the car and left me with feeding the kids and putting them to bed, and then when I went to talk to her she appeared to be asleep so I left her.

I can see that I didn't communicate overly well in my first message particularly. I should definitely not have said that for better or worse I am the primary manager of our finances. The truth is that she just won't participate in our finances other than saying that we never have enough money and we suck at managing money. I find this pretty triggering because she insisted that I drop to 4 days a week in order for me to be able to take the kids on Fridays. This was a pretty big hit to our finances, and she's not really doing much in the way of paid work and doesn't feel able to. This is used also a justification for why we need to move, because the only place she is able to work is Darwin. Of course I have tried to talk about how valuable her skill sets could be in other areas, but in her view Darwin is the only possibility.

Sorry I'm going off on a tangent.

I probably should have said that I'm feeling a bit stressed managing our finances at the moment and I'd  like to talk about sharing the responsibility.

Lots more to say, but I'll leave it there for the moment.
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« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2021, 08:21:01 PM »

Lot of good ideas on this thread.

Two quick thoughts I had:
1) sometimes you can try to just do the S (support) or just ONLY do the validation for a small step. It depends on how urgently you need to discuss the moving situation. If the goal is just to get her out of this current mood (that has been going on for weeks already), you can try just 15 minutes of pure support and validation (being careful not to agree to anything you don't actually agree with). Just reflect/mirror her feelings, and call it a night. And try again tomorrow. Sometimes the surprise of that tactic can shake things up a little bit.

2) the financial stuff is exhausting. My uBPDgf will insist that she is not high maintenance, and prides herself on not being materialistic. But one symptom of PDs is reckless or excessive spending, and she is uncanny in her ability to spend recklessly on unnecessary things at the worst possible times. Even when she knows we CAN afford it, she enjoys causing chaos by surprise purchases and lack of communication around those expenses. Unfortunately, there's no good way to tell her about your own financial stresses, because she will just internalize that and blame you for stressing her out (in my experience). Anyone have any suggestions for how to discuss finances? It's really just another symptom of the same basic BPD issues.

This thread has been helpful for me - hang in there

TFP
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« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2021, 10:58:17 PM »

She just asked if I can pick up our eldest a 3:30, when I shouldn't be finishing at work until 4:30, so I wrote that I cant pick her up because I've been leaving work early too much lately and my work is piling up. It feels good to say no and stop being the rescuer, but I'm worried about the impact on our kids.

I worked across town and it took me at least a half hour and usually more to travel back for exchanges.  Until my son aged out at about age 12 I paid for a daycare before and after school.  And summers were all daycare.  Of course we were already divorcing/divorced by then but that's how I juggled my parenting time versus work.
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« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2021, 12:34:28 AM »

I'm just finishing off reading Stop Caretaking the Boarderline Narcissist and I've found it really useful, but now am wondering how to stop being a caretaker and still be in a romantic relationship with my partner? It feels like the book suggests that being a non-caretaker means not having emotional discussions with your bpd spouse because they are not capable of it? Honestly by the end I just felt really sad that I'd never be able to have any real conversations with my partner without getting tripped up by a need from her to validate her distortions.

This is at the core of some of what I am really struggling with, I feel really disingenuous validating my partner's feelings whilst avoiding agreement with the statements of fact which are massively distorted. I feel like she will see right through that and push me to agree with all of the distortions and my  validating only the feelings and not the 'facts' will enrage her. Does this make sense?
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« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2021, 04:57:02 AM »

hello Tiller

I really appreciate you digging in and providing such thoughtful posts.   I can see you are working hard.

In my past experience when I don't give her emotions (or story) validation she has told me that she feels completely alone. I am drawing a conclusion from that that if she feels alone, there is a pretty good chance that  she's feeling abandoned because this has been the pattern I have observed over time.

hmmm.     feeling alone is a common theme in many pwBPD(people with BPD).   It can of course mean abandoned.  It can also mean unheard, or unappreciated.   or of course both.    my experience was my partner did not feel abandoned in the traditional sense.    that I was going to leave or end the relationship.    she often felt abandoned in that she wasn't cared for in what she felt was the appropriate way.     for her the appropriate level of care was we needed to merge into one unit, be in totally agreement always and share one perspective... hers.

Makes sense, I actively try to keep my level a few notches below hers. She has expressed in the past that she finds this triggering because I don't feel angry enough about the injustices that have been inflicted on her.

in the book you just finished Fjelstad says 'merging into an amoebae like oneness'   the phrase always stuck with me because it was so accurate.    I think validation has to come hand in hand with boundaries.     finding ways to express a different opinion was very challenging.    I had to find boundaries I was comfortable with in regards to holding and expressing my own opinions.   and that included how much discord was going to be generated.

Interesting, what I was going for here is validating her feelings the she doesn't feel like I'm listening to her without arguing the fact that I was listening to her.

I'm going to suggest that the crux of the issue here isn't if you are listening to her.    From all the evidence here in your posts you are a good listener.    You reflect back very carefully and accurately what's being said to you.  you pick out the important notes.    you are a good listener.    I think perhaps the issue your wife is expressing is that you don't agree with her...   hence you look uncomfortable.    How would you feel about moving the validation target by a couple of inches.   Being cool (click to insert in post)   Instead of validation you are listening... how would you think it would go if you validated you are listening but see things differently.   

I can see that she actively trying to avoid talking to me at the moment, and part of me is relieved, because in some ways it's easier, because there is no conflict, but on the other hand I can see that she's really hurting. I'm trying to get out of the drama triangle that we have lived for so many years, where I would try go in too rescue her from her bad feelings, but now I just feel a bit unkind that I'm not engaging as much.

Lots of good insights here.    Lots to unpack.   if she is trying to avoid talking to you at the moment would it be a good idea to let her have her space?    and if not why?    part of being a 'caretaker' is trying to manage some one else's feelings for them.    which as you know, never really works.    if she is hurting ... you can open the door to contact... you can invite her to share... its up to her to find a way to communicate.     

additionally she might be using this down time to return to baseline.  I was always surprised at how long it took my EX to return to baseline after an emotional outpouring.      it was always much longer than I thought.

Me: "Hi honey, did you buy tickets for something for $228 a couple of days ago?
Partner: "Yes"
Me: "In the future can you please talk to me before buying things like this? I'd like to be in the loop as for better or worse I am the primary manager of our finances. There are quite a few bills that need paying and I'm worried we will run out of money this pay cycle"
My: partner 3 day later "I can't PLEASE READing believe you would send me a text message like this"
Me: I can hear that you are upset, I'm happy to talk about it. We just had to pay a bunch of bills and we are I wasn't weren't expecting this expense. I'm just asking if you can let me know before any large expense items. It's fine, we can afford it, but I'm just asking if you can give me a heads up next time.

Validation isn't a magic cure all.    Its true that pwBPD do better in a highly validating environment but the validation has to be reasonable.    an old timer here used to say don't invalidate.    validate the valid.     invalidate the invalid.    validation can be used to make a tough conversation better but it isn't a magic cure all that turns arguments into smooth sailing.    and validation shouldn't only be used in a highly fraught conversations.    validation should be part of daily living.    a highly validating environment means all things have the potential to be validated not just the difficult moments.

when I first started to validated my partner some of my most carefully crafted validations statements fell flat as mud.    and some of my off the cuff in the spur of the moment flying by the seat of my pants validations were well received.   validation has to be genuine.    it had to be something I would normally and naturally say.   it has to be something I really believed.     validation is not another form of walking on eggshells.    validation is not trying to put something perfectly.

'ducks
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« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2021, 05:09:27 AM »

This is at the core of some of what I am really struggling with, I feel really disingenuous validating my partner's feelings whilst avoiding agreement with the statements of fact which are massively distorted. I feel like she will see right through that and push me to agree with all of the distortions and my  validating only the feelings and not the 'facts' will enrage her. Does this make sense?

Yes it makes sense.     and you are probably right... she probably does see right though that.

people who are organized at the borderline level process the events and emotions of life differently than you and I do.     we process events differently enough that there is a whole website about it.   Being cool (click to insert in post)   

what I am thinking as I read along here is how much differentiation you are comfortable with in romantic relationships.    this is not about her so much as about your comfort level and your ways of functioning in relationships.     if it feels disingenuous, why do it?     that's not a rhetorical question.   if it feels disingenuous why put her needs above your needs?    why do something that feels uncomfortable at your expense?    is there a kind, thoughtful way to express your thoughts to your partner and if so,  what's stopping you from doing that?

again ... validation doesn't mean agreement.   her feelings are very real to her.   she is drawing different conclusions from the events she is looking at.   validating that you both have experienced this very differently could be a bridge builder.

'ducks
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« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2021, 08:59:32 AM »


again ... validation doesn't mean agreement.   her feelings are very real to her.   she is drawing different conclusions from the events she is looking at.   validating that you both have experienced this very differently could be a bridge builder.

'ducks

Whenever I say something along the lines of "we remember that differently" or "we have different memories of that" my BPDw translates it into "you are crazy and this is a sign of your mental illness".  Any advice on how to turn this into a bridge building experience?
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« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2021, 10:33:49 AM »

Whenever I say something along the lines of "we remember that differently" or "we have different memories of that" my BPDw translates it into "you are crazy and this is a sign of your mental illness".  Any advice on how to turn this into a bridge building experience?

Oooffph.    That's a tough one.

Does she actually say you are crazy?  Who is she calling crazy herself or you?

'differences of opinion are part of the normal human experience'

No two people see things exactly alike.

Something along those lines?

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« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2021, 12:33:30 PM »

Whenever I say something along the lines of "we remember that differently" or "we have different memories of that" my BPDw translates it into "you are crazy and this is a sign of your mental illness".  Any advice on how to turn this into a bridge building experience?

Uggg...this was a major thing in my r/s for a loong time.  It's better, I certainly wouldn't say I've "solved" it.

Much like many people will ask (in normal relationships) do you want me to listen and be empathetic or are you looking for help in problem solving...I will try to figure out if my wife honestly wants to have a discussion about recollections and what is subjective or objective...or if she just wants to be listened to.

That can be tricky to navigate.

FFw.."blah blah blah you said aliens are hiding in the closet and have bigfoot hostage...blah blah blah"

FF:  "Oh goodness...hey babe this sounds important and I'm trying to wrap this thing up here, can I bring us some drinks in 5 minutes and we'll talk?"

(that's kinda for the out of the blue thing)


Let's say we are having an "intense discussion" but I've decided to hang with it because it's somewhat productive (not a circular discussion).  Then...she goes for a wacky memory/accusation.

FFw  "you promised you would give me all your money and make sure I never worked again"  (umm...if you are wondering..I've heard that one...word for word)

FF:  "oh... I'm listening"  (perhaps a touch of surprise in my voice..just a touch, then kinda lean into it for the "I'm listening". )

let's say that doesn't work or she starts demanding I agree or  whatever.

FF:  "Hey babe..I'm tapping out on this conversation and need a break.  I'm grabbing ice water..can't I bring you some?  Then we'll work on this more."

In the past I've tried the "we recall things differently" and sometimes it "hurt"...maybe sometimes it was "neutral"...so I kinda gave that up.  A few times I've tried..

"Hey FFw...help me out here.  You obviously know people recall things differently, which we do...so I'm struggling to understand where this conversation is going."

You see how I acknowledge she is an adult with adult knowledge, vice trying to explain something to her that people already know.  

Maybe this has gone better for me.

Finally...I just offer what I can.

"Is this important enough to go examine our records to refresh our memories?"

Anyway...wish I had better news on this.  Lots of minefields.   Lots of trial and error.

Best,

FF

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« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2021, 07:02:59 PM »

Trying not to hijack the thread.. but I think it's relevant to the OP.

So here is an example:

Buddy and I were out drinking and he made a joke about me needing to control my woman.  I thought it was funny and told my BPDw, she is the least "controllable" human being on the planet, and will literally do the exact opposite if one tries so I thought she would see the humor.  She had a mild upset, saying that in black culture (she's mexican, he's black, I'm white) that means I should beat her.  I certainly didn't take it that way and it was said in "guy talk" and not meant seriously either way.

Forward a couple years it comes up multiple times, every time her "translating" black culture for me.  Ultimately her telling me that a "real husband" would drop that person because he disrespected her.  But consistently saying it was a cultural translation of what he actually said.

Forward a couple of months:  "Have you been talking to XX".  Me:  Yes, he texted a few weeks back, told me he got a new job, but we really don't talk much.  Meltdown.  Emailed lawyer, Don't talk to me except through lawyer, etc.  I turn off my phone.  She rages another 30 minutes.

Next morning all okay.

That evening she brings it up as an "example" of how people act in relationships, saying he told me to smack her around.  At this point I remind her that he didn't use those words and I'm immediately cut off and a complete backstory about when/how those exact words were used,  how she confronted him on it, and how I never once had her back.  None of it true.

At this point I'm at a complete loss.  I don't want to JADE, but I can't even fathom how to SET this use case... so I say nothing.  Three minutes later it's like it never came up.  ((FWIW I tried the same technique the night before but she was in her 2-6 week "must fight" mode).
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« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2021, 08:41:05 PM »


So..I think it's relevant/helpful as well.

If you could go back in time..what would you do differently?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2021, 09:58:41 PM »

My partner has just let me know that she feels like I’m just letting her rot and die in her room. She said’ you really need to read some books on how to support a partner with depression’.

This is so hard.Because she doesn’t identify as having depression 90% of the time and after the fact she will call it something else. On top of that I’m trying to be in relationship with her in the context of bpd, but she doesn’t know this and if she did, I don’t think that would be very helpful. I can see my self falling right back into FOG and caretaker mode!
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« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2021, 10:37:11 PM »

If your relationship fails, you'll end up in domestic or family court over the custody and parenting issues, whether you are married or not.  (You'll need to be prepared for that possibility, both legally and emotionally.)

How will court treat you?  As an adult. How will the court treat her?  As an adult.  Maybe not on the same level, many courts still give mothers preferential treatment, but still... adults.

Doesn't matter if you try to tell her what to do.
Doesn't matter if she tries to tell you what to do.
Court will ignore the minor squabbles and even some of the big ones.
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« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2021, 01:48:34 AM »

So..I think it's relevant/helpful as well.

If you could go back in time..what would you do differently?

No clue, but this started the downward roll and she's reverted completely and seems to have lost all progress of her classes...

If I could lie I might just have told her I wasn't talking to him.. but I'm not really capable of that.

I could have left her word choice alone and not challenged her on what we have talked about in the past, but I hadn't realized she had a new narrative and I was trying to steer the conversation into a direction where she felt less betrayed. 

Or maybe I just didn't like her "translation as truth" narrative and was being argumentative.  But he is the only friend I have left and it is annoying that she has chosen to distort a joke as an excuse to isolate me from my last friend.  But if I'd had a good SET piece, I would likely have tried that first.
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« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2021, 04:35:47 AM »

My partner has just let me know that she feels like I’m just letting her rot and die in her room. She said’ you really need to read some books on how to support a partner with depression’.

Is this true?   Is this accurate?    Is this even possible?   are you letting her "rot and die"?   Or are you instead changing your work schedule, handling all the bills, and doing most of the child care?    are you coming here and working towards a better and deeper understanding?    so again is this an accurate reflection of reality or is it instead something a mentally ill person would say reflecting a distorted reality?    Is this FOG?

Seriously Tiller lets pull this apart.    Is it actually even physically possible to do more to support her than you are?   our partners with mental illness often say things that reflect a distorted reality.  they are often painful to hear.    and they often end up pressing our caretaker buttons.    this is where we have to look at our own part in this dysfunction.     this is where we have to look at where our responsibilities begin and end.    can you take a couple of deep breaths and let us know what you feel your responsibilities are to your partner?
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« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2021, 06:21:37 AM »

I know how much I do for our family, and I’m getting pretty tired of shouldering the load without a bit of support from my partner. I also recognise that at the moment it’s unlikely that this is going to change.

I just finally got her to have a proper talk with me and it was just a rant about how utterly f@cked we are and how we souls have never left adarwin and that basically it was my fault for wanting to leave, although it was very much a joint decision at the time.
She also used the fact that no one has not iced that she’s been bed ridden for the past 2 weeks as evidenced that we have no friends and nobody cares. Stupidly I took the bait and suggested that if she were to maybe reach out to some people then they’d know. But this led to her yelling at me saying ‘how dare you tell me that, you have no idea about how unfair other people are with this kind of thing, they’ll just drop you as soon as they get a whiff of the fact that you’re unhappy.”

She’s even stopped contacting her one friend who’d supported her though everything because she’s worried she’ll tire of her and will probably just side with me. Very confusing.

She’s just running around in circles in her head of what would make things better, but when prodded a bit further it turns out that nothing will make things better.

Coming back to the question of whether there is anything else I could be doing? I just don’t know…there must be something o can do to help stop this not so merry go round of misery. Honestly letting her stay in her room while I focus on the kids needs feels like maybe the best thing I could be doing.

This is so unbelievably hard!
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« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2021, 06:27:06 AM »

I was trying to steer the conversation into a direction where she felt less betrayed.  


Again..I think this kind of thing is relevant to everyone on here.  Actively trying to manage a disordered person's feelings is unlikely to work, most likely going to leave you feeling EXHAUSTED, and almost certainly will take energy away from caring for yourself.

I know someone has the question out there..."but aren't you teaching us to validate and say things better?"...isn't that trying to "manage" someone else's feelings.   (and I can see that point of view)
 
Usually when we break down attempts to "manage" another person's feelings you can "see" the "argument".  The fixer is putting things in such a way as to "argue" that the pwBPD is "wrong" to feel that way. (at least the pwBPD experiences it that way)

The core of "validation" is to set aside right and wrong and let them know feelings..their feelings..are important.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2021, 06:30:29 AM »


Coming back to the question of whether there is anything else I could be doing? 

This is so unbelievably hard!

I wonder if there are things you are doing...that maybe you should stop doing or are not productive.  What do you think?

Yes...this is very hard stuff!

Best,

FF
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« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2021, 07:05:05 AM »

Yes, I’m certain you are right. But which things to start with?
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« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2021, 01:03:45 PM »

Yes, I’m certain you are right. But which things to start with?

Good question...coming back at ya. 

Look for places you put a lot of effort into...you tried so hard to make it better and then...it blew up in your face.

Can you share a few of those? 

Best,

FF
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« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2021, 12:24:51 AM »

I the fact that I do all the house work and am more or less parenting by myself is a good example, I’m facilitating her staying disconnection by taking up all the slack, but if I don’t it impacts badly on the kids. I really want to go fishing with a friend on Sunday, and all very well for me to say I need to do this to look after myself, but if that has a negative impact on my kids is it worth it?
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« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2021, 05:26:26 AM »

It feels like she’s getting worse rather than better, just spending literally all of her time in bed watching Netflix. It’s so hard not to go into rescuer mode even if only for the selfish reason that our house feels so miserable. She’s only got negative things to say about everything and it’s making my parenting that much more difficult. Leaving her by herself feel wrong too. I’m at a loss as to what I can do to break a circuit…
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« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2021, 06:38:01 AM »

Coming back to the question of whether there is anything else I could be doing? I just don’t know…there must be something o can do to help stop this not so merry go round of misery. Honestly letting her stay in her room while I focus on the kids needs feels like maybe the best thing I could be doing.

of course.   of course Tiller.     the question about should you or could you do more was meant to be partially rhetorical.   I should have phrased it better.    sorry about that.

this is very difficult stuff.   bpd is a very serious mental illness.   it turns our lives upside down many times.   and you are shouldering a lot of load right now.     there are absolutely no simple answers.   and many times the solutions that are available seem like picking the lesser evil.

I’m facilitating her staying disconnection by taking up all the slack, but if I don’t it impacts badly on the kids.

It’s so hard not to go into rescuer mode even if only for the selfish reason that our house feels so miserable. . Leaving her by herself feel wrong too. I’m at a loss as to what I can do to break a circuit…

its hard to split the difference... because there is truth on both sides of this.   picking up all the slack does enable her to stay in bed watching Netflix.     on the other hand there is that natural tug to help some one who is struggling.   it would be great to find a compromise solution that YOU can feel comfortable with.    it doesn't sound like your partner is willing or able to compromise right now.   there is always that trap of 'if we have one more conversation she will see my point of view and we can change this'.     when that one more conversation doesn't help reach any compromise solution is it time to start to limit how much energy and effort you put into having them?     

I would suggest you make your priorities simple.     what can you do to take good care of yourself and the kids today?   if the atmosphere in the house is toxic... would a trip to the park be a good idea?    don't try and solve all the problems in one 24 hour period.     dial everything down to the simplest possible items.    have the kids eaten a good healthy meal today?    got some outdoor time in?    even if its only 30 minutes in the back yard with a ball?       have you eaten?   slept?    had some down time?   even if it is only 30 minutes in the back yard?

it is terribly frustrating when our partners have a mental health crisis.    its upsetting and scary.     its stressful.     all of us struggle to do the right thing.    all of us fight with the belief that if we only say the right things the right way then our partners will snap too and see the light.    that is not how mental illness works.   the distorted and disordered reality they are functioning in can't be talked away by us.    and its exhausting to try.      just recognizing the difference in the perceptions of reality is a huge huge thing to grapple with.

some of the best advice I ever got was to slow things down.   to try in live in 'one day at a time' increments.   to know what I could do for the next 24 hours and only focus on that.    to not try to fix everything all at once.    it lessens the stress.

hang in there and keep posting.   we are listening.

'ducks
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« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2021, 10:34:59 AM »


Can you explain more about the negative effects on the kids if you go fishing with a buddy?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2021, 04:09:14 PM »

Is this a one-on-one fishing trip?  If there are other families, could you bring your children along, presuming their safety around water is ensured?

How demanding is she about who cares for the kids?  Would leaving them in the care of others, such as your buddy's family, for a few hours trigger her into overreactions and confrontations?
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« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2021, 05:20:29 PM »


And since she has made a choice to confine herself to the bed and not communicate much, why involve her in all this? 

Either take kiddos or set up the childcare yourself. 

How would she likely react to this?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2021, 05:55:08 AM »

I got a message about me going fishing saying that she’s got the message loud and clear that I’d prefer to spend time with my friends than her.

When I spoke to her tonight she accused me of not being interested in helping her. Being passive and frozen. She blamed me for not ‘getting into the trenches’ with her, and blamed me for having made her move here five years ago.

She then went in to say we have to go, that there is no other choice. I explain that I thought about it a great deal and do t think that’s in the rest of the family’s best interest. She responded ‘so then you’re just happy to let me die her in bed instead?

When I noted that I’ve found it difficult to talk lately because every night I’ve been told to leave and go to bed and when I’ve tried to get her to participate in our family life I’ve just been given a flat no. She actually said that she wants me to take control. I got a bit defensive at this point, and noted that I have taken over all parenting and household duties and that I can take control of her life for her, I can get her a career, I can’t make her feel ok here or anywhere else. That’s just not in my power.

She kept going accusing me of being a bad partner and weak passive person. At this point I put a limit down and said I wont be able
To continue talking now if her verbal abuse continued at which point I left.
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« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2021, 10:30:34 AM »

How did you feel about the messages she delivered to you?

How do feel about how the conversation went?

You've described her emotions and thoughts very well.    What I am asking about is what you are feeling and thinking.    this is very tough stuff to go through.   I have been on the receiving end of those exchanges.   I know exactly how difficult this is.    How are you?   What would you like to see happen?
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« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2021, 11:39:21 AM »


It's important for you to understand your feelings and how they may or may not have changed, because that will help us guide you to say more effective things when these type of "accusations" get made.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2021, 04:05:03 PM »

I felt horrible. I felt like all the slack I’ve been taking up has been completely ignored. I feel like she wants me to get in there and experience her depression alongside her and I don’t really know how to do that or if it’s of any use. I feel like my entire experience of life and needs and wants are being overshadowed by hers.

I also feel really confused about what I should do.

I don’t really think the conversation went very well, but at the same time I did express some boundaries. Being told point blank that I am making things worse has left me feeling guilty that maybe I am and maybe I could be doing things more skilfully and lovingly?
I just don’t know what to do next
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« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2021, 04:37:59 PM »

She has been in bed for, what now, three weeks? -- while you have taken on 100% of the parenting and household needs. You have lovingly checked in her, in spite of her rejection and verbal abuse.

She is deep into a depressive, dark period yet is refusing help.

What more do you think you can do?

Short of any suicidal ideation on her part, you can't really dress her and load her in the car and take her to a hospital for a psych check. SI may be the only thing that allows you to get help for her.

Have you spoken to anyone at a local psychiatric facility about options for a depressed patient who is not functioning but is not suicidal?
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« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2021, 05:39:29 PM »

Blame shifting is a common/typical symptom of BPD.   

People with BPD believe other people are responsible for their feelings and problems.    With no understanding of their role in their difficulties.

It can sound very credible.    But it's usually not.    Its an offloading of their own responsibility onto someone else.    Usually the target of blame is someone very close.   Parent , partner,  child.   

Its not usually possible to talk a pwBPD out of their target of blame.    Often talking about it only worsen conditions as the blame becomes more deeply engrained.

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« Reply #49 on: July 24, 2021, 08:37:44 PM »

I don’t really know what services are available without her being on board with it and at the moment she doesn’t see herself as having maternal problems. She feels like everything has been done to her.

She just gave me another round of telling me that I have to go figure out what to do to, to which I replied that I’m doing everything I can think of including making sure the kids are looked after and checking in with her as much as I can, to which she relied, well aren’t u ok mr f@cking perfect, we’ll done! I honestly don’t know what else I’m could be doing? Three weeks is a long time to be in this state and I honestly want to help her, but she doesn’t know how, I dont know how, and she feels like I’m just making it all about me.

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« Reply #50 on: July 25, 2021, 12:21:42 AM »

Short of any suicidal ideation on her part, you can't really dress her and load her in the car and take her to a hospital for a psych check. SI may be the only thing that allows you to get help for her.

Among my many stories in the final year or two of my marriage, I was at a gathering at my cousin's house.  After we left she started berating me that I talked too much with my cousin's wife and that there ought to be divorces and I marry her.  Fortunately our son was young and was asleep but she started hitting me on the head as I was driving.  Naturally I pulled over and she freaked out even more, saying we would get hit by the traffic behind us, then she threatened she'd run out onto the highway.  It was sort of a catch-22 so I drove on.  Oops, I missed our exit, drove on to the next exit which just so happened to have our local hospital.  I pulled up to the ER doors.  A nice young man came out and said two things...

  • If she wouldn't come inside there was nothing they could do.
  • If I didn't move my van from the emergency area, he would have to call the police.

You can't 'fix' her.  She is either using you so she can avoid work and life or she is sensitized to living in a close relationship with you or a list of other excuses.  (BPD is most evident in the closest of relationships and what is closer than a marriage?)  She will have to do something for herself but as long as you're catering to her she has no incentive to do that. Of course forcing consequences on her can raise quite a ruckus, that's called extinction burst, so be forewarned.  In my case my spouse stopped moaning and sobbing when we separated.  She had a new focus in life, blaming me and posturing as a helpless victim.  But she did stop moaning and sobbing in the guest bedroom.  So far as I know, some 15 years later, she hasn't done that since.
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« Reply #51 on: July 25, 2021, 08:07:11 AM »

She just gave me another round of telling me that I have to go figure out what to do to, to which I replied that I’m doing everything I can think of including making sure the kids are looked after and checking in with her as much as I can, to which she relied, well aren’t u ok mr f@cking perfect, we’ll done! I honestly don’t know what else I’m could be doing? Three weeks is a long time to be in this state and I honestly want to help her, but she doesn’t know how, I dont know how, and she feels like I’m just making it all about me.

have you ever heard of circular arguments?     I hadn't when I first came here.   I just knew that my partner and I had these long discussion that went round and round and I wasn't even sure what we were talking about half the time.

I am going to give you a link from the Tools and Skills board... click below when you are ready.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0

a circular argument or a circular discussion can go on almost endlessly, repeating the same patterns with no resolution.

so what to do with a circular conversation?
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Recognize the pattern. Acknowledge that you are in a conversation that is just going around and around.

Accept that feelings aren’t inherently good or bad - they just are. Feelings are a byproduct of circumstances, emotions, brain chemistry and a host of other things. You can’t control the way you feel, neither can the person with the personality disorder - the way you feel is just a natural reaction to your experience.

Switch from stating facts to stating feelings. Describe your own feelings not the other person's. Don't say "I feel like you are lying". That is not a feeling. That is an opinion. Say "I feel scared" or "I feel hurt". You don't have to say why, just say it. The wonderful thing about stating your feelings is that nobody can contradict you, although people might try. Nobody knows or owns your feelings except you.

End the conversation, calmly and with your dignity intact. If you like, you can say, "I need a break" or "Let's discuss this later" and end it there.

and here are some suggestions for what not to do:

Excerpt
Don't repeat anything you have already said.
Don't explain or respond to a question that you have already answered.
Don't engage in aggressive acts such as slamming doors or storming out.
Don't try to get the last word.
Don't wait for your feelings to be validated.
Don't try to change the other person's mind. Their thoughts and beliefs and feelings are their own.
Don't try to manipulate the other person's feelings. Don't try to make them feel guilt, remorse or sympathy.
Don't spend airtime describing the other person's behavior, feelings or actions - focus on describing your own needs and feelings.
Don’t wait for agreement or consensus to end the conversation.

how do you think this fits in with what you are experiencing?

'ducks
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« Reply #52 on: July 26, 2021, 12:24:26 AM »

I think that we do have quite a few circular arguments, but honestly I don't feel like I'm even arguing any more, they feel more like circular rants.

I'm spending so much energy trying not to invalidate her feelings that what I do say is coming out a little forced I think. She is now saying that she just cant listen to me because I'm speaking in such an emotionless monotone, but if I get more animated, it's likely that I'd just be adding fuel too the fire and questioning her distortions. On that point, I'm not sure whether I should be questioning her distortions?

An example would be that she hates living here because she has no friends and there is no work for her here. The reality, she gets lots of invitations from people to go to things, which she almost never goes to and with regards to a job, she feels that unless it's her absolute passion, she doesn't want to do it, but when I ask her what her passion is, she doesn't know and says she need to go back to study, but says we can't because we couldn't afford it. When I say, if money weren't an object, what would you like to study, what kind of job would you want? She responds that she has no idea, yet she feel like she is only employable in Darwin. I spoke to one of our family friends yesterday and told her subtly that my partner is feeling down and feels pretty isolated. She said that she invites here to lots of things, but she never comes.

Talking to here has now become even harder because she is fixated on the idea that I'm trying to make everything about me, when in fact I think she's trying to make everything about me. It's so confusing, frustrating and upsetting.

This is now the beginning of the fourth week that she has been bed ridden and I feel like something has to give, but should I just give up on being the catalyst for something changing?
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« Reply #53 on: July 26, 2021, 07:36:27 AM »

  but honestly I don't feel like I'm even arguing any more, they feel more like circular rants.

  but should I just give up on being the catalyst for something changing?

No..you shouldn't give up.  If change is going to come, it will be from you. 

It's also important to realize that YOU may feel uncomfortable in the process AND that it is unlikely she will AGREE that what you are doing is helpful.

But where to start with change?

Perhaps for starters.  What positive impact has there been on your relationship by participating in circular rants/arguments with your pwBPD?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #54 on: July 26, 2021, 08:42:12 PM »

I know that it’s not helpful participating in circular arguments/rants, but it feels easier than saying, I feel like this conversation is just going around and around and I think we should stop it and take a breather.

I feel like I’m still waiting for her to make the change, because it feels like it’s her staying in bed and not participating in life. I’m not sure what changed I can make to help that, and I’m not sure what changes I can make to help me without making things feel worse for her.

She just keeps attacking me with what I’m doing wrong, there is part of me that still thinks, if I just listened better…or if I just moved back to Darwin….or if I just wait for this cycle to end…or if she would just talk to someone. Part of me also feels like if I keep avoiding getting into the drama triangle, perhaps she’ll be forced to try something new.

All comments / suggestions are very much welcome at this point!
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« Reply #55 on: July 26, 2021, 10:49:02 PM »

Hey Tiller  Welcome new member (click to insert in post)

While I'm not formflier, I remember reading some of his tips on the boards here, and I'll add those on to a thought about boundaries.

Sometimes there is a misconception that boundaries only "count" if we announce or describe or explain them verbally to the other person. So, if I were new to the idea, I might think that I "had to" TELL the other person "hey, I am not doing x any more".

Interestingly, and, hopefully liberatingly, we don't have to explain or describe our boundaries to anyone else (and, thankfully, we don't have to get anyone else's agreement!)

Boundaries are things we can just do, without needing cooperation or agreement from anyone else. They're actions we do to manage our "self bubble". What is my responsibility and what is not.

So, of course it's feeling like UGGGHHH to "have to" tell your W "I think this is a circular conversation and we should stop". Someone might think "but isn't that a boundary?"

My take is: no, it's not, and it sort of "needs" agreement, which you likely won't get, so of course you're dreading saying that, and of course just keeping on participating seems "less worse".

Yet there is another option... Acting out your boundaries (without explaining or justifying).

Next time the conversation starts to circle, "doing" a boundary could look like saying "hey babe, I'm gonna go get some juice, want me to bring any back for you?" And then you leave the room. Notice you aren't being punitive about it (you're trying to be kind and offer her something too) but -- importantly -- you're doing the boundary of leaving circular conversations.

Or, you could say something like "hey babe... What new information do you have for me... I'm able to stay for new information..." (Or something more skilled than that). You leave the door open for her to stop the circle and get the conversation more productive, but if she has no new info to add, then "you are not able to stay if there is no new info". Again, doing a boundary instead of the dread of explaining or justifying it.

What are your thoughts so far?
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« Reply #56 on: July 26, 2021, 11:21:24 PM »

Hi Kells, thank for you input. I'm just running the scenario through my head of the circular discussion that my partner will likely bring up around wanting to move house and that this will make everything better (we did this only 6 months ago because my partner was convinced that it would make things better). I know that moving wont fix our issues and I feel like saying:

"I can hear that you are miserable hear, and I know that the past 5 years have been really hard, still I think that moving is not going to make things any easier. We won't have a support network, the kids won't have any friends, they are going to a good school at the moment, I have a really good job here etc. etc."

But I know this will be a totally circular argument because it will just end in my partner telling me how I've completely invalidated everything she's just said.

In the scenario where she is telling me about how terrible it is where we live in every aspect and I get up and say,
"It feels like we've been over this a lot before, if there's no new information I'm going to head out for a walk, want me to bring you anything back?" I'm almost certain that she will be furious and scream that I don't care and I don't listen and use this as an example of what an uncaring partner I am. How do you think it sounds if I was to say "I don't have anything else that I can add to this conversation right now because it feels like we are going over a lot of the terrain. If you have anything new you'd like to talk about, I'm happy  to stay, otherwise I'm going to go now."

All of these approaches, apart from the first conversation where I try to review her distortions seems quite cold, but I recognize that trying to point out that her world is full of information that I see as distorted is going to blow up in my face.

Regarding spelling out boundaries, I do feel tempted to spell them out so that she know what I'm doing, but I agree that perhaps it's better just to act out my boundary and the meaning behind it should then not need explaining.
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« Reply #57 on: July 26, 2021, 11:29:20 PM »

Next time the conversation starts to circle, "doing" a boundary could look like saying "hey babe, I'm gonna go get some juice, want me to bring any back for you?" And then you leave the room. Notice you aren't being punitive about it (you're trying to be kind and offer her something too) but -- importantly -- you're doing the boundary of leaving circular conversations.

What are your thoughts so far?

I REALLY like this one.. will have to try it some day.
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« Reply #58 on: July 27, 2021, 04:35:05 AM »

Regarding spelling out boundaries, I do feel tempted to spell them out so that she know what I'm doing, but I agree that perhaps it's better just to act out my boundary and the meaning behind it should then not need explaining.

I used to make cups of tea.   it took about 5 minutes to make a good cup of tea so that got me out of the conversational loop for a while.       and I used to go to the bathroom.    I went to the bathroom a lot.    Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)    anything to force a break into the avalanche of emotions.

I don't think I have ever read one single post where some one said -  oh we were stuck in a circular argument and finally after 7 hours over 12 days we worked it out.     it has always been ... always... the more the conversation went on the worse it got.    I think ending a circular conversation does feel cold at first.   we are used to the heightened emotions of the argument.    in a way cold is what the  goal is.   a cooling off of emotions.

what I know from my experience the more the circular argument went on -  the more both of us got entrenched in our positions.    we both deadlocked in our positions and solutions and it became harder and harder to see any other viewpoint than the one we had gone over and over and over.
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« Reply #59 on: July 27, 2021, 05:56:46 AM »

I just had a textbook circular argument:
Partner: I just hate it here, we have no community, no friends, the teachers at the school hate all the parents and you don’t care.
Me: i can see how much you are not wanting to be here now and that you feel like we have no community. You’ve felt that way for a long time. I am concerned that if we move we’ll have even less community.
Partner; I don’t want to talk to you anymore you don’t listen to me.
Me: I’m sorry it feels like I’m not listening, from where I stand I’m listening intently, but don’t share your view.
Partner; it’s not a f@cking feeling, it’s an objective reality!
Me: I think I’ll go now, this is just going round and round.


Admittedly I didn’t handle that too well, and I absolutely questioned her beliefs, but I just don’t think that it will be any different anywhere else, but part of me wants to give in because it feels like only when we actually go will she be able yo let go of the grass being greener back in Darwin.

I’m the meantime she is going to be completely obstinate about the fact that we have no one here, and she’ll enforce this by not engaging with anyone.

I feel like it’s definitely a case of damned if I do dammed if I don’t. All I know is things can’t go on this way. I need to make changes and I’m still not clear what they are.
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« Reply #60 on: July 27, 2021, 06:03:23 AM »

  I am concerned that if we move we’ll have even less community.
 

Perhaps she didn't think you were listening because you listened and then "made it about you" and your concerns?

Were you trying to SET and have this be the T (truth)?

Less words is more.


example

blah blah blah I have no one blah blah blah.

you:  That must be hard.

Then be silent and present.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #61 on: July 27, 2021, 06:17:06 AM »

I’ve tried that and was accused of not taking her seriously and not doing anything to help her. I was going for a SET approach but I’m finding it really difficult because the support and empathy aren’t even coming close to landing. I’ll keep trying, but I’m so frustrated.
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« Reply #62 on: July 27, 2021, 07:56:06 AM »


Yes..this is hard and frustrating work.  Often a lot of work goes out, with little to show for it.  (part of the trial and error part of this)

Can you try to give me as much he said she said for when she accused you of not taking her seriously?

I was pretty sure you were going for SET.  Would be better to keep yourself out of it..no "I" in it. 

"Moving can also be lonely."     (the shorter the better)

Keep up the hard work..we can help you refine this stuff.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #63 on: July 27, 2021, 10:49:29 AM »

I just had a textbook circular argument:
Partner: I just hate it here, we have no community, no friends, the teachers at the school hate all the parents and you don’t care.
Me: i can see how much you are not wanting to be here now and that you feel like we have no community. You’ve felt that way for a long time. I am concerned that if we move we’ll have even less community.
Partner; I don’t want to talk to you anymore you don’t listen to me.
Me: I’m sorry it feels like I’m not listening, from where I stand I’m listening intently, but don’t share your view.
Partner; it’s not a f@cking feeling, it’s an objective reality!
Me: I think I’ll go now, this is just going round and round.


Admittedly I didn’t handle that too well, and I absolutely questioned her beliefs, but I just don’t think that it will be any different anywhere else, but part of me wants to give in because it feels like only when we actually go will she be able yo let go of the grass being greener back in Darwin.

I’m the meantime she is going to be completely obstinate about the fact that we have no one here, and she’ll enforce this by not engaging with anyone.

I feel like it’s definitely a case of damned if I do dammed if I don’t. All I know is things can’t go on this way. I need to make changes and I’m still not clear what they are.

Actually I think you handled it pretty well.   I really liked that you took control and ended the conversation.   That's a plus.

There's no perfect way to say things that will make her respond rationally.   Right now that is beyond her.   

I like that you didn't engage with "it's objective reality".   Give yourself credit.

I know it wasn't a pleasant conversation but I think you did better than you can recognize right now.
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« Reply #64 on: July 27, 2021, 05:57:27 PM »

I just got the following text from my partner:

“ It’s so clear to me now that your job/career, your status as a home owner, your kids- are all more important than me and my needs. My needs are important to you only in context of being able to perform house keeping, child rearing duties and the emotional load and responsibility that comes with that. As long as I’m doing that stuff, The rest is my problem to figure out. When you do that stuff, you become a hero- in everyone’s eyes. We’ve both slotted into and internalised systemic sexism so well since having kids. It’s like when I had pneumonia, it’s like when I was traumatised at daughter's birth, it’s like when I had to demand, push you to tell your bosses you needed a 4 day week- then feel PLEASE READing guilty about it. if I can’t have my own back, like at the moment, you don’t have it. You’re not really listening or acting  because what I’m saying is deeply inconvenient. How bout this- we go back to Darwin, I get the full time job with status, maybe in gov policy or something, you get freelance or part time work to fit around kids needs and schedule. You could be a barista. We rent.”

And we’ve got a parent teacher interview that I said I’d really like her to come to this morning and got the following:

“ You figure out what to do about Our daughters  needs with her teacher. What’s best for her. You advocate for her. I’m just a helicopter mum in her and the schools eyes. it’s f@cked up. You take responsibility for her emotional well being and the foundations for mental health through her lifespan. Oh but don’t f@ck it up. Oh but stop being so precious and projecting. But don’t f@ck it up. That’ll be on you. Just do what the teacher says because they know your kid better than you and school is good and just let them get on with their job. But don’t f@ck it up cuz that kid is a walking anxiety disorder ready to go off and she’s inheriting a global dystopia. But just take a chill pill. But dont f@ck it up. ”

OMG! I don’t know where to begin!
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« Reply #65 on: July 27, 2021, 09:05:30 PM »

I dont see a need to respond.

Anyone else think if a good response?

Best

FF
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« Reply #66 on: July 27, 2021, 09:13:41 PM »

No need to respond. There is nothing valid to validate. A lot of spewing to ignore.

Tiller, can you tap into a local social service for a welfare visit?
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« Reply #67 on: July 27, 2021, 10:22:01 PM »

Agreed. No need to respond.

When I first started not responding to my uBPDw's raging texts, it felt very uncomfortable. But then eventually she stopped texting, and seemed not even to expect a response.

Similar to how you walked away from a conversation that was going downhill the other day. Enforcing your own boundaries can feel incredibly uncomfortable at first. Then over time, as you do it more often and see the positive effects of your boundaries, it will probably get more comfortable.

Your partner may have an extinction burst when you first start enforcing a boundary. You'll have to sit that one out (and enforce your boundary again). Then she's more likely to get used to your new behavior.
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« Reply #68 on: July 27, 2021, 11:33:21 PM »

Then the next issue is, how do I go about talking to her tonight. She is going to want an answer to her proposal to move. I know I'm going to have to enforce a limit here about the texts she sent, but don't really know how to go about it.

Also, we've gotten into a pattern of me getting home, getting the kids fed, bathed and into bed and then I clean the kitchen, get the kids lunch and clothes ready for the next day and then go in to check on my partner.

At this stage she usually starts with I don't want to talk, just go to bed. I know that what she is saying is, you won't agree with me so I'm going to withhold talking to you until you do. Do you think a good approach would be to say the following:

The last few nights we've had some pretty difficult conversations and I've been hearing that you don't want to talk to me because I don't listen. If you want to talk to me, I'll be in the lounge room and I will listen as long as our conversation is respectful and not aggressive. If I feel the conversation is too aggressive or disrespectful, I will leave and we can resume talking when we've calmed down.
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« Reply #69 on: July 28, 2021, 04:21:54 AM »

Also, we've gotten into a pattern of me getting home, getting the kids fed, bathed and into bed and then I clean the kitchen, get the kids lunch and clothes ready for the next day and then go in to check on my partner.

I am going with an assumption here Tiller.   Correct me if I got it wrong.    The whole time you are feeding and bathing the kids, cleaning the kitchen etc etc she can hear you.   She knows you are home.   She knows you are working around the house.    Still she chooses to withdraw.     She chooses to retreat into the Netflix and the bedroom.     Did I get that right?      I would say let her withdraw and do not pursue her.       Don't go check on her.     

I believe you are completely correct.  she is using emotional reasoning and emotional manipulation in an attempt to get what she wants.    I would absolutely not share this insight with her.     this is an insight you want to become comfortable with and mature into different choices for yourself not something you discuss with her.

 
At this stage she usually starts with I don't want to talk, just go to bed. I know that what she is saying is, you won't agree with me so I'm going to withhold talking to you until you do. Do you think a good approach would be to say the following:

The last few nights we've had some pretty difficult conversations and I've been hearing that you don't want to talk to me because I don't listen. If you want to talk to me, I'll be in the lounge room and I will listen as long as our conversation is respectful and not aggressive. If I feel the conversation is too aggressive or disrespectful, I will leave and we can resume talking when we've calmed down.

No I wouldn't use this approach.    from what you describe there is very little chance anything new or productive would come from having the same conversation in the lounge room.     I would suggest you stop having the same conversation over and over again.   and I completely understand she won't like this.     right now when she is unhappy with something she tries to force you to comply with her wishes.    and you have been over functioning trying to reduce her acting out.    which has not worked at all.    you've participated in how many opportunities for her to express herself over the last 4 weeks?    how many times has that lead to a decent conversation?    stop doing it.

If it were me I would keep the conversation simple and civil, only when she makes a point of joining you.   In the kitchen.  or in the house.   not where she has stage managed the environment into "I am dying and rotting here in bed".    don't chase that illusion.     

I would keep the conversational approaches open - something like 'hey partner I am going to the market for fresh strawberries do you want to come along?'   or 'I noticed the Olympics are on TV and I am going to watch for a little while - are you interested?'

Enforcing your own boundaries can feel incredibly uncomfortable at first. Then over time, as you do it more often and see the positive effects of your boundaries, it will probably get more comfortable.

Your partner may have an extinction burst when you first start enforcing a boundary. You'll have to sit that one out (and enforce your boundary again). Then she's more likely to get used to your new behavior.

zagsert got it right.    once you stop chasing her and trying to talk her delusions out, she will have what we call an extinction burst.     an extinction burst is bad behavior becoming temporarily worse as the pwBPD grapples with not getting what they perceive as absolutely necessary.   

'ducks
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« Reply #70 on: July 28, 2021, 04:45:17 AM »

When I got home and checked in on her today, she was so triggered by me saying I wouldn’t speak to her while she is blaming everything on me, and I left the room, that she stormed out and when my 5 year old begged her not to go she said “your dad doesn’t give a sh@t about me and some more horrible things, which really upset our little girl.

I then got all of the below texts:

You’re talking to me like I’m a child in the most monotone patronising voice. What the hell is wrong with you?
You sound EXACTLY like my PLEASE READing father.
Because you’ll just get up in the morning like it’s any other day with your lovely job and your kids and your house- all the status markers- oh and your incredibly supportive community- never mind the atrophying mother who has no support, can’t move and is highly distressed in the other room- just a heads up I can’t ‘look after’ our youngest tomorrow.

She’s now using the withdrawal of her parenting  ability for the one day we have no care for our youngest to punish me it feels like.
I guess tomorrow as a stop gap I’ll take her with me to work, but then I need someone to look after her in an ongoing basis in this day. I guess all I can do is tell my partner that if she’s unable to look after her I’ll have to find her child care for that day. My worry is that she won’t accept whatever childcare option I present and may go a step further and withdraw gmher ability to do pick ups and drop offs on the days that aren’t possible for me.
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« Reply #71 on: July 28, 2021, 04:49:33 AM »

And she definitely can hear that I am feeding and bathing the kids, playing with them and cleaning every night.
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« Reply #72 on: July 28, 2021, 04:54:26 AM »

- never mind the atrophying mother who has no support, can’t move and is highly distressed in the other room- .

can you elaborate a little on why she feels like she is atrophying and can't move?
do you feel comfortable saying what medical treatment she has received or is following?

 
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« Reply #73 on: July 28, 2021, 05:02:45 AM »

She is using atrophying as a simile to rotting. She isn’t receiving any medical treatment for anything, and she isn’t willing to try seeing a therapist anymore, her words were “I’m done with therapy, I’ve been seeing psychologists most of my life and it’s pointless.
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« Reply #74 on: July 28, 2021, 06:42:46 AM »

I feel like I’ve just undone  a lot of the work I’ve been doing. My partner has been sending me  message after message saying if you care you’ll respond. Finally I went down to talk to her and she started blaming me for everything, when I got up to leave she said, “you know I’m looking up ways to kill myself” and jumped straight in that and said that I can’t ignore that and I’m going to have to get some support. She told mr if I do she will definitely spiral out  of control. She then started crying saying I wasn’t going to be able to help her, that I’m not there for her, that I’ll never understand and that I’ve never been able to advocate for her. Then she said I do nothing to support her and I took the bait in frustration and started listening all the things I’m doing, at which point she started rocking backwards and forwards saying oh my god, oh my god, oh my god until
I left.
I’m feeling really bad now that I’ve just made things a lot worse. I think she was just trying to get my attention by bringing up suicide ideations because straight after she said, now I’ve got your attention haven’t I. But maybe she’s serious? I hate this so much!
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« Reply #75 on: July 28, 2021, 07:47:31 AM »

Do you or she have any family or other supportive people in the area that you can reach out to?   

Are people close to you aware of what is going on in your life?
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« Reply #76 on: July 28, 2021, 07:59:55 AM »

I’ve let my partner’s best friend and parents know what’s going on even though she’s asked me to have no contact with them.
I just sat with her for another hour just letting her talk, much of it was circular and not productive, but I wanted her to feel heard and get some emotional release. Still a lot of blame towards me, and now she is talking more about that she just doesn’t want to be here anymore. She’s begged me not to talk to any support services about her mental health. She was institutionalized once before and she has a horrible and traumatic experience she doesn’t want to relive.
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« Reply #77 on: July 28, 2021, 09:24:39 AM »

I feel like I’ve just undone  a lot of the work I’ve been doing.

This is precisely what we warned you about... extinction bursts.

“you know I’m looking up ways to kill myself” and jumped straight in that and said that I can’t ignore that and I’m going to have to get some support. She told me if I do she will definitely spiral out  of control...

I’m feeling really bad now that I’ve just made things a lot worse. I think she was just trying to get my attention by bringing up suicide ideations because straight after she said, now I’ve got your attention haven’t I. But maybe she’s serious?

We repeatedly state that we here in peer support are not trained professionals, or at least not in that capacity.  Neither are you.  When there is claimed suicidal ideation, you do not have to discern whether it is real or posturing to manipulate you.  Let the professionals figure it out.

However, be very aware that odds are if/when you call emergency services then she will Deny saying anything of the sort, claim you're the bad guy, etc.  So if you do call, avoid her being able to deny by having some sort of documentation or witnesses to support your statements.
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kells76
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« Reply #78 on: July 28, 2021, 09:59:16 AM »

First of all,
 Virtual hug (click to insert in post) Virtual hug (click to insert in post) Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
So sorry it's like this for you right now.

There are a lot of moving parts, for sure. You're learning about new skills and trying them out, your partner is trying an "extinction burst" (raising the stakes of what she says and does as you have new boundaries), you have a job to do, and there's taking care of the kids.

I'll just focus on one piece of the puzzle as others are talking with you about the others (extinction bursts etc).

So, child care:

Excerpt
She’s now using the withdrawal of her parenting  ability for the one day we have no care for our youngest to punish me it feels like.
I guess tomorrow as a stop gap I’ll take her with me to work, but then I need someone to look after her in an ongoing basis in this day. I guess all I can do is tell my partner that if she’s unable to look after her I’ll have to find her child care for that day. My worry is that she won’t accept whatever childcare option I present and may go a step further and withdraw gmher ability to do pick ups and drop offs on the days that aren’t possible for me.

This may sound weird or "wrong", but...

what if you didn't have to tell her?

what if you didn't need to hang all the outcomes on whether or not she accepted what you chose?

I think we are on the same page, that she's not going to be, uh, happy, with ANY option, right? So is it really a matter of "getting her buy-in" or "going through the list of options until you find one she agrees with"?

Your kids need care whether or not their mom is able to provide it or agrees with any options. It's not possible to wait for their mom to "be on the same page" with you that "yes, Babysitter #3 is the best, let's together go with that".

In this season of your family life, you are the available and present parent. It is a lot on your shoulders. Can you take some of the weight off of yourself, by freeing yourself to move forward on your own with child care decisions, for now?

Yes, your W won't like it. But... I'm kind of thinking, in this time of her life, it's not like "oh, there IS an option she'd like, if I could just find it".

Care for your kids first, then you (your health, sleep, job, etc). That will truly put you in the best position to then care about your W. If all your energy goes to her first, what do you have left for you? And if you're running on empty, your kids will suffer, as unfortunately you are the only functioning parent right now, and no matter how much energy you pour into your W, it won't be enough, until she wants to and chooses to care about and heal herself.

...

So, please consider just moving forward with independent child care decisions. Consider looking at it not as "I'm hurting my W by not consulting with her or getting her agreement", rather, as "I'm helping my family as a whole, all members, by making sure the kids are cared for first".

It's also using less valuable emotional energy by being realistic about what your W is capable of at this time, rather than using more emotional energy by hoping or believing that maybe she is capable of more (i.e., normal parenting logistics) than she is.

Believe what she's communicating to you -- she isn't up for sharing parenting right now.

I wish it weren't that way for you. So, like babyducks suggested, right now is a season for you to find extra help on your own, rather than waiting for your W to suggest or agree with ideas.

Now is a season to dig deep and be vulnerable in reaching out for help for your kids -- do they have school friends/acquaintances whose parents would be up for taking the kids for a chunk of the day? Are you associated with a church or spiritual group? Can you leverage friend/family networks to find a good sitter in your area? Neighbors you trust? This may be a period in your life when you may need to be pretty open with people: "Our family needs help with child care, and as much as I feel awkward coming to you asking this, are you able to watch the kids from 10-6 every Monday and Wednesday? Or, do you know someone who can? Can you help me find an affordable child care group? It's hard for me to ask for help, but here I am."

My hope and intuition is that once you get the child care sorted out, you'll be in a better place to implement and follow up on some of the new tools/skills to make things "less worse" with your W. You'll likely have some more emotional bandwidth that you really don't have right now.

 Virtual hug (click to insert in post) Virtual hug (click to insert in post) Virtual hug (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #79 on: July 28, 2021, 10:43:50 AM »

Adding to what Kells said...

If your W is similar to my BPDw, she is unlikely to directly answer a question where a life decision is necessary.  If there are two options she will not pick one, but argue against or for both.  She will present a third option that is completely unrealistic.  She will change her mind after picking one and then go back and forth.  She sets it up so that no matter what I ultimately do, she will be "right" if something goes well and I will be "wrong" if something goes poorly.

In my case what I've found effective is I provide details, give her options and end up making the decision on my own based on what I believe is best for the family, taking her valid points into consideration as much as possible.  This of course leads to her "not having a voice" and that I "always get my way"... but it moves things forward in the most rational course.
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« Reply #80 on: July 28, 2021, 11:11:20 AM »

Bottom line...She is not functional right now. She can't handle any of the day-to-day activities that keep the family and household running. You are over-functioning because of this.

So knowing she is not functional and not rational, how can she be the one to insist you don't ask for help with suicide ideation? It's not within your ability to make a judgement on the seriousness of her threats. You can't over-function for her in this area.

Call for help.
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In yours and my discharge."
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« Reply #81 on: July 29, 2021, 05:30:42 AM »

After the suicidal ideations last night I ended up contacting her best friend, who my partner explicitly asked me not to contact, but it was either this or calling professionals which would have been way worse. Her friend decided she would get in the car and drive 3 hours to come tonight to support her/me and we didn’t tell her until her friend arrived. She is understandingly really angry at me for not talking this through, but I felt too worried that it might send her over the edge, it’s funny how trying to do something that comes out of a love Ing place can feel so brutal and awful. I don’t feel like a particularly good partner night now.
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« Reply #82 on: July 29, 2021, 10:19:54 AM »

After the suicidal ideations last night I ended up contacting her best friend, who my partner explicitly asked me not to contact, but it was either this or calling professionals which would have been way worse.

This had to have been a tough decision.   I have no doubt you thought it through and made the best one you could in a rough situation.

I am also glad she had a friend who was willing to drive 3 hours to visit.

Now what about you?     Do you have any family - parents, siblings, cousins who you can speak freely with?    Friends?   How about professional support?  Therapist?   Doctor?   Clergy ?    When I was in my relationship with my pwBPD I had a psychologist of my own.   The P was a great help to me.    I got professional competent advice from some one I trusted and new the whole story.     I would always recommend anyone in these types of relationships find a therapist for themselves, as an advocate for themselves.       Many companies have EAP's.   Employee Assistance Programs that can help make connections in the professional world.    Just trying to brain storm some ideas here... they might work for you... they may not.   

Call for help.

When GaGrl says call for help... understand that you really are the decision maker about what help and how much to call for.     Could the kids go on a visit to one set of grandparents for the weekend?    For the day?    Would that be a help or a hindrance?     How much vacation time do you have stored up?    would it be helpful for you to schedule a day off for you... to go recharge your batteries without the pressure of the children and your partner.    Its not a bad idea to take a few hours to escape the stress.



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« Reply #83 on: August 04, 2021, 10:16:21 AM »

As babyducks says, it's important to work on yourself while also getting her the help she needs.

There's an interesting book called The Undefeated Mind.  It's not about BPD specifically, but it addresses the importance of creating a resilient mindset for yourself amid chaos. At the extremes, you want to get to the point where you can handle any situation that arises - even terrible things like suicide.  In some cases, suicide still happens.  But in many other cases, simply not being afraid of the unknown lowers the stress levels for all parties involved, and suicidal threats actually stop once they no longer hold power.  It's hard stuff - hang in there.
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